Could a DnD adventuring party take on a modern military?
Will their skills and spells be enough?
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Could a DnD adventuring party take on a modern military? Will their skills and spells be enough?
Sure, Protection From Mundane Missiles alone makes 90% of modern military arsenal ineffectice.
Depends on edition/levels.
In TSR editions magic items play a much bigger role because levels don't make you into super gods unless you're playing with the expansion rules that do literally turn PCs into gods in which case it's a whole other territory to begin with.
In WotC editions, levels matter a lot more due to how unreasonably tough PCs get and how some characters get real reality warping shit as they level.
Though as said, spells are a major factor, since in editions where you can just make yourself immune to non-magical attacks, nothing stops the adventurers from just wading through and killing everything.
Taking on an entire military is a pain in the ass though, so I would think unless the PCs have Locate City Nuke or other really gimmicky builds it's just not worth the effort.
Not really, it might protect you from infantry rifles but not grenades, artillery, or explosives in general. Not to mention mages are at best 1 in 20 guys, even if you did a mass protection against arrows/missiles it would help any of them when jet CAS drops cluster bombs on them.
>Not to mention mages are at best 1 in 20 guys
In D&D adventuring parties they tend to be about 3 out of 5 guys
It protect from all of those thing, because they are fundamentally a mundane projectile, bullet, shrapnel, whatever. It stops radiation too, because those are particles launched by mundane (albeit vry advanced and complex) process.
>It stops radiation too
[citation needed]
Mundane explosions and radiations still require saving throws and so aren't missiles
...But yeah, one shade will be enough.
>shade
*Shadow, a shade would be way overkill
Well, it's rarely the actual explosion part that does the killing, but rather the shrapnel propelled by it.
The shockwave from an explosive is not a projectile. Also, bullshit it stops radiation. ALSO, Apaches mount laser weapons now.
There's no way it can stop radiation without it inadvertently killing the user as a consequence. You don't know what radiation is.
Anything that could ward off radiation would need to be able to stop particles at the sub-atomic level. And it would inevitably turn the user blind and deaf and strip them of all external heat almost immediately. Pretty much killing them.
Stops radiation and has no negative effects on the user. It's magic.
Protection from Energy.
>Not to mention mages are at best 1 in 20 guys
OP specifically said a D&D adventuring party. EVERY adventuring party has an arcane caster, usually several.
Like somebody already said, depends entirely on levels. There's enough magic in D&D (any edition) to literally make the party impossible to harm or even detect by any nonmagical means. Only question is what is the lowest level you can do it at.
>nonmagical means
When you drop a term like this abd begin to apply it to a real world setting, you need to define it.
If you're going to define magic as "well they pull it from the weave" or whatever. Then congratulations, the moment they set foot on our world every spellcaster is useless. If you wanna retain their use of magic, you need to start applying science and logic to its form and function.
You can't just say "I'm immune to non-magical attacks" that phrase has zero meaning in a setting where what YOU define as magic doesn't exist. The weave. We have our own form of magic too. It's called physics. So rather than doing the playground bullshit of "I'm immune to everything" you're gonna have to work out the HOW that's possible within the confines of our existing magic system.
No homosexual, magic works for them and doesn't work for you. End of. I'm not going to engage with your goalpost moving.
>You can't just say "I'm immune to non-magical attacks"
Yes we can. Nonmagical is defined as lacking magic. Literally everything you can ever do lacks magic because whatever it is you can't access it, ever. Don't try to wiggle out of it.
What is magic.
You're on Earth now. If you can't define where your power comes from. You can't use it. Your bound by our laws of physics now. Not your halfbaked D&D ones.
>Your bound by our laws of physics now. Not your halfbaked D&D ones.
Then this thread is moronic and pointless and you are an idiot for posting in it. According to you the OP question is actually "who would win, a military or 3-6 civilians?"
I mean, you're the one pulling out the most OP shit in D&D pretending it's average level, then coming in here on not attempting to reason how any of this would realistically work.
Also, I'm not OP you fricking moron.
>you're
That was my first post anon.
I just think you're being silly.
>That was my first post anon.
It certainly doesn't seem that way.
Well I don't particularly care. You're the one taking this personally. I think this is a dumb thread to have, but I think it's even dumber to come in to it and insist on some other thing. The OP clearly specified spells being involved.
That's the average wizard, sorry.
D&D rules take precedence, actually.
I don't have to define anything. I'm magic. You can't stop me.
Ok. Then you're powerless on Earth. Enjoy ATTEMPTING to cast whatever, and realizing you can't use magic at all.
Have a nice day.
Nope, I have magic on Earth. Enjoy being a shadow.
>Modern military hits your party with a cruise missile from 400 miles away before you even realize you're under attack and put up your defensive spells.
No, you're shitty DnD magic wouldn't do shit against a modern military. Remember, there's a reason the wizarding world in Harry Potter fears muggles.
Harry Potter wizards could very easily take over the muggle world.
Teleportation, mind control and memory manipulation is all you need to take control of any muggle country.
As for defence, they can hide anything anywhere with no chance of muggles noticing.
Technically the only canonical reason we're given for why wizards didn't take over the world is that they can't be bothered to, though that may just be Hagrid being whimsical or not wanting to explain things to an 11 years old.
The only issues with Harry Potter wizards is that they just aren't that bright and never really use their abilities efficiently and that they don't bother learning things about muggles.
Harry Potter magic made no sense.
Anything that *stop radiation* kills the host you imbecile. You rely on radiation to LIVE you stupid frick. How do you think your body keeps warm?
>or technology so advanced that it's effectively magic, which our world doesn't have anyway
He said while nonverbally communicating instantly with multiple people on various parts of the globe.
The real issue here is that magicgays offer no explanation for the function of the magic, and simply say "it just werks." Which is the equivalent of the shit 4 year olds do in playgrounds where they just go "oh yeah, well I do THIS!!"
Nope. Stops radiation and doesn't hurt you. Magic.
>moron doesn't understand what radiation means
Idiot. Anything that STOPS radiation WILL kill you as a consequence. You can't STOP radiation. All radiation is is the transmission of energy in the form of particles and waves.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radiation
If you STOP radiation, you create a void around yourself that WILL kill you.
Stops radiation and doesn't hurt you. Magic.
Ok. Then you die. Congrats.
Nope, still alive and unaffected by radiation.
Exactly. That's why you're dead. You cast a spell that killed you because you were too stupid to understand how radiation works.
Nope, still alive and unaffected by radiation.
Nope. Casting spells you don't understand causes them to backfire and kill you. Sorry.
You're not in the Forgotten Realms anymore Dorothy.
Nope, still alive and unaffected by radiation.
Mmmm, nope. You're most definitely dead. A body can't survive without Radiation. Your own fault for doing something and not understanding the consequences. Monkey's paw and all that.
Verification no required.
Nope, still alive and unaffected by radiation.
You were "that kid" on the playground, weren't you? You know, the one that whenever playing pretend, you'd always pull some bullshit out of your ass as to why your pretend character never loses.
D&D rules take precedence.
No they don't.
Outlr world isn't guided by dice rolls, and we don't have the weave. You're gonna have to interpret how the powers relate to real world physics.
No it's not.
Yes they do. I don't have to interpret anything. You lose.
Mmmm, nope. You can imagine whatever fantasy you like to cope if you want though.
Yeah, you really can't have a reasonable debate with DnD morons. They are all a bunch of poorly socialized losers who no one wanted to play with as kids because they saw pretend time as a time to live out their shitty power fantasies even if it meant the other kids they played with weren't having fun.
Took the words right out of my mouth.
Hey I'm trying, but everyone else in the thread is going "no u", "no u", over and over.
The two posts I've made in this thread are
and
, by the way, neither of which involve any kind of hyper-optimization, just a very typical D&D wizard casting very typical spells (and not even high level ones) who's of a mind to destroy the Earth for some reason, and who isn't instantly set upon by the world's militaries since there's no reason for them to instantly know of his arrival.
Like, that last part is my sole "unreasonable" assumption, that no one knows he's arrive don Earth. Because, well, how could we? Random guy in a robe with a staff walking through San Francisco talking about dragons, how you gonna tell him apart from any other Californian?
Wizards win.
I cast "Obliterate Autists" - can you two roll damage?
Yeah it is
Holy shit how are you real.
Jesus Christ, he's full of shit about is stopping radiation but the point is IT'S MAGIC, the point of magic is to not give a shit about physics or realism.
Nah, the point was he was an anal moron who lost his mind because he wouldn’t put a prefix (nuclear) in front of a word (radiation)
Not really. You'd have to explain why you're protected from "nuclear radiation" specifically. You moron.
Pilpuling again. You really are a homosexual
Try being specific then moron. WHAT are you being shielded from exactly, and HOW is it accomplishing then?
Monkey's Paw, moron.
>calls someone anal while obsessing over unimportant details
I cast remove radiation lol
https://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/r/remove-radioactivity/
Assuming I even need to since I just planeshifted after dominating all the world leaders to launch all your nukes and am now just chilling in a demiplane with accelerated time to wait out the hundred years of fallout in a couple hours
To answer both of you - the spell needed to block nuclear radiation without harming you would need to filter out high frequency radiation AKA ionizing radiation. Which arguably isn't that crazy of a development. I mean, we have mechanical filters for ionizing radiation IRL. Such filters are what separates blacklight lamps from disinfection lamps.
This is the answer I was waiting for, because the goal is to define exactly how the magic works so we can have a realistic match up, instead I'm being met by
from single digit IQ smoothbrains.
I'm right and you lose.
>Modern military will deal with those things by making sure you never summon them in the first place.
I don't think you know how D&D magic works, starting with the various instant-cast and conditional cast spells that can contain things such as Time Stop. You can literally get a perfect surprise and still not do any damage at all because your bullet or missile was stopped by an automatically, instantly cast defense. That's assuming you _can_ surprise an entity that can potentially see into the future, and doesn't even need to be on the same plane of existence as you to attack you.
High level D&D casters are impossible to beat without magic (or technology so advanced that it's effectively magic, which our world doesn't have anyway).
Yes, the reason is that JK Rowling is a hack fraud with no talent or ability to worldbuild in a consistent or believable way. Wizards have spells that can forcefully polymorph crowds of people into helpless animals and they’re scared of a .38 Detroit special and a Cadillac without a rear bumper.
You gotta remember Rowling is Bri*ish, there's like two people on the whole damn isles with unrestrained access to guns. And one of them runs the place. Which puts the very idea of firearms to near mythical level in average anglo mind.
>Remember, there's a reason the wizarding world in Harry Potter fears muggles.
Rowling being a female boomer factors a lot into this, a single wizard from Harry Potter's world could be a civilization threat with the imperio curse + all the cloaking and shape-shifting spells, literally any death eater could take over the world without directly killing someone with a spell
First, Protection From Mundane Missiles isnt a widely available spell. In 5e it's 3rd party, in 3rd its not a spell, you have Protection from Arrows which offers damage resistance but not immunuty. It also only lasts up to an hour/level (or only up to a minute for the 3rd party 5e spell), and requires concentration. Artillery shell bursts and missile strikes (neither of which are mundane projectiles, they're explosives) can scramble your brains from the shockwave alone, I seriously doubt most mages can maintain concentration in that event. You're just incredibly wrong about radiation, embarrassingly so, both in terms of understanding the concept as well as understanding the rules. Radiation is a form of energetic transfer it has nothing to do with mundane ranged attacks. Besides that, most editions have specific rules for radiation which clearly indicate that it's not a form of physical attack. Protection From Energy doesn't work on shockwaves or explosions, but even if it did it only offers resistance, not immunity.
Rope today you ugly troon.
>Radiation is a form of energetic transfer it has nothing to do with mundane ranged attacks.
Arrows and bullets are mundane methods of energy transfer as are swords and maces. They work by dumping their energy into the target. Radiation is energy transfer so it has a lot to do with other ranged attacks.
>Artillery shell bursts and missile strikes (neither of which are mundane projectiles, they're explosives)
As the rules make abundantly clear mundane means non-magical. With limited exception, like smokepowder which is explicitly listed as magical and spells like explosive runes, explosives for guns and bombs are non-magical in DND 5. Radiation is not one of the attack types and it's not listed under the Protection from Energy spell. I don't know where radiation is called magical and if it isn't magical it's mundane so it has that it common with mundane ranged attacks.
>Besides that, most editions have specific rules for radiation
Treating all the basics as a single edition and 3/3.5 as a single edition there are seven editions so you need to just quote four TSR/WOTC products. Radiant damage is not ionising radiation or lasers or focussed microwaves as under discussion here so don't be stupid and pretend like it is. I'll even allow Expedition to the Barrier Peaks for AD&D 1 despite it not being specific or detailed, just "lose 1 strength per hour due to radiation sickness" with no mention of how to cure it or block it except the ship's doors and its radiation antidote.
>Rope today
So sad.
I've named one edition so just waiting on three or more out of six little guy.
>Radiation is energy transfer so it has a lot to do with other ranged attacks.
The spell stops projectiles, not kinetic energy, radiation and shockwaves get through fine.
>radiation isn't magical
It's also not a projectile.
>It's also not a projectile.
>The spell stops projectiles
Radiation as we are discussing it here is indeed a projectile. Alpha, beta, and gamma radiation, lasers and microwave beams are just collections of very, very small projectiles. Too bad if you don't like the term but we've moved into discussion of the real world and that term applies.
>not kinetic energy
I really hope that you were writing that with solely lasers, masers, microwave beams, gamma etc. radiation in mind, not also alpha, beta, neutron, cosmic or neutrino, etc. radiation. Regardless, your writing that in reference to radiation tells me you think photons are pure energy: they are not. Energy is just one of the properties that photons possess.
>Alpha, beta, and gamma radiation, lasers and microwave beams are just collections of very, very small projectiles
The spell doesn't stop air, does it? Air is "particles."
>Energy is just one of the properties that photons possess.
In terms of real physics, yes. In terms of how spells work, no. Because the spell doesn't stop light either.
>The spell doesn't stop air, does it?
The only thing the spell stops is damage so the answer to that question is trivially no (to a first approximation).
AD&D says total invulnerability to small/normal missiles, damage reduction against large/magical (i.e. enchanted, not conjured/evoked) missiles. If you want to interpret that as stopping that's your head canon not by the book. It could just as easily be the missile missing its mark or reducing to a lesser-/non-damaging speed or energy.
DND3 might be easier to understand as it provides protection against ranged weapons. This would include laser guns, ion cannon, etc.
If one sufficiently cools a particular fraction of air one can fashion a mundane projectile that would be affected by the spell if the projectile were hurled. Solid lead bullets if hurled would be protected against and I can't see any reason why molten lead globules if hurled wouldn't also be protected against. It doesn't look at all like state of matter matters. An air cannon capable of inflicting damage would be protected against too. I wouldn't say air for breathing generally counts as hurled or projected and doesn't cause damage so why you would construe the spell as stopping normal air for breathing is a mystery.
>Air is "particles."
Air is composed of particles not "particles". The scare quotes are inappropriate.
>In terms of real physics, yes. In terms of how spells work, no.
It's almost as if real world physics doesn't mesh well with rules created for a fantasy game.
>Because the spell doesn't stop light either.
Repeating that the AD&D 1 through DND3 say nothing about stopping a projectile, that would depend. 3rd edition rules would certainly reduce damage from a laser gun which indeed projects light. One might run into trouble with a laser sword made of a beam firing at a diverging lens (to limit its effective length) as the beam itself is of a projectile nature and also if such a sword were thrown but what what DMs are for.
>damage reduction against large/magical
I got as far as this and stopped reading, the spell is beaten by anything larger than normal bullets. So, one actual missile and the party dies, the spell is useless.
>I got as far as this and stopped reading
The remedial reading classes still haven't helped? Keep going, don't give up hope, you can do it champ.
>the spell is beaten by anything larger than normal bullets.
I'd say you and I both know that's not true but you're having fun being a contrarian. It would have been faster to transcribe the dozen words from the spell description proving you wrong than type this post but it's more fun doing all this isn't it.
if you have 5 guys and you are fighting 150,000 guys head on, you made a mistake somewhere.
if you have 5 guys and you're boofing ammo dumps and fuel depots and then running and hiding, you might get things to go your way.
Realistically there's very few fantasy settings that our modern militaries could hope to match.
My current party probably could, actually, though they wouldn't do it head-on.
Most dnd parties can't even beat a couple dozen archers.
However if you can summon one singular shade your could genocide their entire planet.
"Please don't drop that JDAM on me yet, I need to short rest to remember my spells."
A modern military has rules of engagement and a strict chain of command. Beating the force becomes less about killing soldiers and more about mind control on politicians and generals.
at first I thought you were making some real-life political commentary before I realized you actually said "mind control" and not manipulation
Kamikaze drones wreck the action economy
Sure, create greater undead then bog off to do something else while they all get Str drained to death.
The beep-boop physics that allows DnD spells in its own world would -not- work in real life.
Is OP just moronic?
Magic as it was attempted in real life was a lot subtler and it would be a global game changer if any of it actually worked.
A basement magician’s ritual that causes a spontaneous heart attack in some politician on the other side of the world is absurdly powerful.
If nobody knows? You may as well be the Decider. Thank god none of it works.
>ERM, AKSHUALLY MAGIC WOULDN'T WORK IN REAL LIFE!!!
Holy shit, shut the frick up.
If it works in fiction then it’s technically science even in fiction. Grow up.
Stop being a pedantic little Black person.
It’s just common sense to me. What is pedantic to one is simple sensibility to another.
How is he wrong
>A basement magician’s ritual that causes a spontaneous heart attack in some politician on the other side of the world is absurdly powerful.
Which D&D spell is that?
It isn’t one. It’s just how people thought magic worked in real life. “My uncle dropped dead! It must be the witch on the other side of the island! Let’s go get her!”
Politicians in Southeast Asia go to shamans and witches to curse their political opponents from afar lol
Scry+teleport/portal/summon
The combo called "Scry & Fry"
Scry-and-Die, actually. And it would definitely be devastating to any modern military given that it''s really difficult to defend against even in D&D worlds, and all the ways to do so rely on high level spells themselves and so are out off the reach of modern militarizes. But even without scry-and-die...we just don't have the capability to defend against mind control or genuine invisibility. It's an outside-context problem for us.
I mean, let's assume I'm a 5e wizard using Core only (PHB, DMG, MM). If I wanted to deal with, say, every modern military power on the planet at once...
0. Establish a base of operations, paid for with gold converted to US cash at a cash-4-gold locale. Research the world I'm now on. Move the base of operations as needed with teleporting or even just renting a U-haul and a driver.
1. Charm Person a random US citizen.
2. Grill the person for information on the US military for the next hour. Ordinary citizens won't have specialized knowledge but they'll know about things like Air Force One and the President being the Commander in Chief and be able to identify major geopolitical rivals like China or Russia.
3. Invisibility to enter the White House and make my way to the President.
4. Dominate Person to command him to, say, order US troops into Ukraine to fight Russia.
5. Teleport to my wizard lair and prepare for my next move.
Dream. I used it once to drive a baron mad and eventually died for not paying us
I'm sure high level spellcasters could do some damage with some of their spells, but D&D magic has pathetically short range in comparison to any military weapon manufactured after, say, 1885. In all likelihood an adventuring party would be massacred by artillery or aircraft before even seeing the enemy.
you can easily invent scenarios where magic completely destroys modern militaries simply because they have no idea it even exists
>guns are superpowered pretty girls
>jets are superpowered pretty girls
>ships are superpowered pretty girls
>historical leaders are superpowered pretty girls
We'll be fine
FRICK NO. The femtosecond a fantasy setting leaves it's plane it loses ALL of it's abilities and powers. There is a reason people use guns instead of magic missiles or swords.
>Could a DnD adventuring party take on a modern military?
Depends on the party, obviously, but I feel just teleportation alone causes havoc with most modern military strategies.
I don't even need a full party.
https://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/The_Wish_and_the_Word_(3.5e_Optimized_Character_Build)
Also, with Genesis you can unleash an arbitrarily large number of mindraped Solars onto the earth from your untouchable demiplane and simply wait for them to scour the surface of life. You never even need to get out of your recliner.
It literally depends on which side is being wanked. See: How in Gate magic might as well be worthless.
Short answer:
No.
Long answer:
NOOOOOOOOOOoooooooooooooooooo.
People thoroughly underestimate just how powerful our modern tech is.
Fantastic, now how will this fabulous tech save you from the incorporeal undead and shadow demons summoned? How do you glass what you cannot touch with "your" modern military?
Just kill the user.
>That won't stop the spell!
Ok. But I still killed the user.
Did you secure the corpse? Did you account for Contingency triggering a Plane Shift that drags the body back to the caster's demiplane where his cleric friend is busy raising him from the dead outside recon range? Meanwhile, the incorporeal threat can't be neutralized. Sounds like mission failure to me.
Have to know a threat exists before orders can be given. If the party teleports or plane shifts, it'll likely be seen as a glitch. If the caster and his buddies show up at a Renaissance fair with no intel on them, what sniper is standing by? Is that the real caster or a Simulacrum? Illusion spells work for thermal, too.
See
If you think you're capable of taking on something billions of times more intelligent than you, that can host in infinite bodies, and can compute at the speed of light, be my guest.
If we're gonna wank power fantasies, let's wank power fantasies then.
Billions of times less intelligent than me, you mean. Wizard has more than infinite bodies and thinks faster than light.
>See
You wanna roleplay as the demigod, the we shift earth 100 years into the future. Have fun dealing with the ASI.
Don't shift goalposts. You posited the superiority of a modern military at their best against "a DnD adventuring party", to quote OP. Therefore, that adventuring party will also be at peak performance with a ridiculous budget.
I didn't write the OP. I assumed we were talking average party.
Otherwise the question is fricking obvious. Would Superman be able to conquer modern Earth? No shit idiot. Might as well just make it a death battle then. Who would win. Superman or some Lvl 20 Wizard. There's no interesting discussion to be had otherwise.
If we go average party, then yeah, it becomes way harder for it to win.
And if you do wanna have a more interesting thought experiment, then pit a lvl 20 mage party vs an ASI 100 years into the future. Cause those are the power scales we're dealing with you fricking idiot.
The average wizard is level 20 and has all spells prepared.
>Sniper domes you from 500 meters away before you can finish your gay little summoning chant or whatever.
Modern military will deal with those things by making sure you never summon them in the first place.
Not even a sniper. We can launch a warhead from anywhere on the planet and complete scorch the land in a 20 radius of where the party is standing, without them even knowing of the danger until it's way too late.
And because it's a warhead, it launched a cluster of nukes on target.
If the heat doesn't kill them. The fireball from the explosion. The change in wind pressure. The sonic blast. The actual blast from the explosion and kinetic force from the impact. And if that doesn't do it, the radiation from the nuke will.
Cast as many protection spell as you like. You've got less than a second. And you need to guard against a wide array of different lethal attacks. Which a D&D mage wouldn't be able to predict as they just see black rocks in the sky ready to fall on them, at best.
And that's if we keep it to our CURRENT known tech.
We actually have the technology to build satelites that can microwave your brain from orbit. We just don't (KNOW) we have those due to international treaties.
>We can launch a warhead from anywhere on the planet and complete scorch the land in a 20 radius of where the party is standing, without them even knowing of the danger until it's way too late.
Sorry, but I'm not even on Earth, I'm sitting pretty in my pocket dimension sending summoned demons, solars and shit at you while you are physically unable to even comprehend where I am let alone access it.
I though we said "average" D&D party?
You wanna roleplay as the demigod, the we shift earth 100 years into the future. Have fun dealing with the ASI.
What I described is the average wizard. You can pick any time period you want, it won't make a difference.
No, that isn't the average wizard. You are just trying to pull out all the top level, demigod bullshit to preserve your shitty "magic is better than tech" power fantasy.
Average wizard, actually.
>I though we said "average" D&D party?
No, you invented that in your head because you're a moron.
Good job taking out the simulacrum, moron. You have no idea where I am.
Nope, I already explained how one or two wizards could dominate Earth in two different ways.
How are you supposed to shoot a ghost to death, again?
Ghosts aren't real.
They are in D&D.
D&D isn't real life.
I don't think you realize how many fantasy settings have shit that's "flat out immunity to non-magical attacks and needs other magic to counter it".
Right, but the issue here is you're putting magic into a world where your source of magic doesn't exist. Magic systems come with their rules, restrictions, and logic applied to them. Otherwise it becomes "I imagined this happens, therefore I win." Nonsense. If you're going to transpose magic to a world where your source of magic doesn't exist, or the laws of physics contradict how your magic functions, then you're going to have to logically explain how it actually manifests in reality.
You can't just say "well, it's unaffected by non-magic." When that term itself has no clear definition. Like, magic ACTUALLY exists in our world. It's mathematics. Go read old tomes and books on magic, like Agrippa, Pythagoras, DaVinci, etc... What was once understood as magic evolved to become Physics, Quantum Mechanics, Molecular Biology, etc....
So if you say something with no clear definition like, "it's unaffected by non-magic," what does that mean, when my magic evolved to become a tactical nuke? You still die to the same effects of heat and radiation.
So you could say, "well, no, magic for me means that I pull energy from the Weave" or whatever, but if a mage is HERE on this plane of reality. What does that mean when in this reality, there is no weave?
Your first hurdle will be to define what magic actually IS for your character in our reality, and how they're able to use it in our world. Ergo, how it's translating over.
It's not that different than if you take a D&D character and put them in the 40k universe. Or in Star Wars. They don't just get to use the Weave, because it's not a present force in that setting. A D&D Wizard trying to use Magic in a 40k setting will likely see them get mind-raped by chaos demons.
>So you could say, "well, no, magic for me means that I pull energy from the Weave" or whatever, but if a mage is HERE on this plane of reality. What does that mean when in this reality, there is no weave?
The premise in the OP is whether an adventuring party could take on a modern military.
Nothing about that assumes that the adventuring party needs to be on real-life Earth. And if it's the case where it is on Earth and the party's magic doesn't work, then the answer is obvious: the party loses. Thread over.
The only reason to continue posting is if you care about answering the question with the playing field being more even. Which in this context, would be the modern military being placed in the fantastical world in question where magic exists and functions.
>So if you say something with no clear definition like, "it's unaffected by non-magic,"
Except that has a clear definition. You just don't like it because you're too busy trying to militarywank without actually understanding the other side.
Ok. Then I can outbullshit your bullshit just the same.
Turns out magical wards and barriers can be disrupted by a powerful electromagnetic pulse as the electromagnetic interference disrupts with a the flow of magic. A powerful EMP pulse is enough to render all magical barriers completely ineffective.
>But it's anti-
Doesn't matter. Forgotten Realms doesn't have things such as EMP or other understandings of particle physics or quantum mechanics. As such, the interaction between magical abilities and the like has never been properly understood.
Your fricking move. Two can play this stupid playground game.
>Two can play this stupid playground game.
If you think it's stupid, why are you playing it? Your answer is here
Just don't click on threads you don't like.
>Just don't click on threads you don't like.
Take your own advice bro.
I don't give a frick about Forgotten Realms.
>As such, the interaction between magical abilities and the like has never been properly understood.
Wrong. See: Expedition to the Barrier Peaks.
d20 Modern :: Arcana :: Additional Spells
>Electromagnetic Pulse
Evocation [Electricity]
Level: Arcane 3;
Components: V, S;
Casting Time: Attack action;
Range: Short (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels);
Area: 20-ft. burst;
Duration: Instantaneous;
Saving Throw: Will negates (object);
Spell Resistance: Yes (object)
When you cast electromagnetic pulse, you send a powerful burst of energy that ruins electronic circuitry within the spell's area. Any computer, telephone, television, or other device with a computer processor inside ceases to function immediately, and the contents of hard drives and other storage media are scrambled.
The electromagnetic pulse affects only devices with extensive circuitry, not everything that uses electricity. Ordinarily the lights stay on, although their electronic switches might not function. Automobiles continue to run, although their engines will run more roughly without electronic guidance. Most cars manufactured after the 1980s won't start after an electromagnetic pulse because they have electronic ignition systems.
Devices affected by an electromagnetic pulse can be fixed according to the following table.
You can jury-rig repairs more quickly and cheaply, but the repairs may not last. See the description of the Repair skill for details.
Some military gear is immune to energy effects such as electromagnetic pulse thanks to a process called tempest hardening. Tempest hardening adds +1 to the purchase DC of an item and makes it Restricted (+2).
>Your fricking move.
Unfortunately for you a D&D setting, D20 Modern, already thought of how magic would be affected by an EMP, it simply fricks electronics.
Your own citation shows that the definition of "electromagnetic pulse" primarily targets electronic circuitry and devices with extensive electronic components. However, this interpretation doesn't address broader impacts or potential magical interactions with high-energy pulses.
When discussing the effects of EMPs in a D&D context, you can't limit it to just damaging electronics. In the real world, EMPs disrupt energy fields, which can go beyond just circuits and hard drives. If you're considering how this might affect a magical setting, it opens the door for broader implications.
EMPs generate bursts of electromagnetic energy. In a magical context, this could disrupt any energy-based constructs or mechanisms that rely on arcane or divine energy, especially if they function in ways similar to electronics. While d20 Modern defines a specific scope, this doesn't preclude more complex interactions between energy pulses and magical constructs.
Moreover, the spell's saving throw and spell resistance suggest that magical items can resist or avoid its effects. This indicates that while the spell specifically targets electronics, there's potential for interaction with magical systems. If an incorporeal creature relies on a specific energy structure or field, there's no clear reason why an EMP wouldn't affect it, given its energy-based nature.
Limiting EMP effects to only electronics in a D&D setting might work for that specific spell, but it doesn't address the broader question of how high-energy pulses interact with magical constructs or incorporeal entities. If we're talking about mixing technology with magic, then it's entirely possible for EMPs to disrupt energy-based forms, even if they're not explicitly electronic.
>but it doesn't address the broader question of how high-energy pulses interact with... incorporeal entities
They don't. Next question.
Correct, so I win. You're not immune to a nuke.
Next question.
>However, this interpretation doesn't address broader impacts or potential magical interactions with high-energy pulses.
It does. Quite simply, it doesn't work. This is literally a spell that creates an EMP. High-energy impulses simply do nothing to magic or the ability to cast spells in a region.
>Moreover, the spell's saving throw and spell resistance suggest that magical items can resist or avoid its effects.
This is in reference to magical electronic items.
>Limiting EMP effects to only electronics in a D&D setting might work for that specific spell
The effects of the spell are that it creates an EMP, and the text specifies the abstraction of what happens within the game world namely the expected frying of electronics without proper shielding.
>high-energy pulses interact with magical constructs or incorporeal entities
It does nothing. Incorporeal entities are unaffected by anything without magical force damage like lasers, emps, fire, bullets, nukes, and other such things. Magical constructs don't care about electronic frying EMPs, and lasers of all types and strengths deal "fire" damage.
Radiation also has no effect besides being a nasty source of death for living things.
>High-energy impulses simply do nothing to magic or the ability to cast spells in a region
The d20 Modern spell "Electromagnetic Pulse" targets electronics, but the interpretation that high-energy impulses do nothing to magic is limited. In the context of D&D, magic and magical constructs often involve energy fields and arcane connections. An EMP can potentially disrupt these energy patterns, even if not explicitly stated in a particular spell description. If you’re dismissing the broader impact of energy disruptions, you're ignoring the potential for interaction between energy and magic.
>This is in reference to magical electronic items.
If the spell's saving throw and spell resistance suggest that magical items can resist or avoid its effects, it indicates that magic can interact with EMPs. It doesn't necessarily mean that only electronic items are affected. The broader implication is that magical constructs with electronic components might need protection against EMPs, opening the door to further interaction between technology and magic.
cont...
>An EMP can potentially disrupt these energy patterns
No, because lightning bolts can't do this.
D&D lightning bolts?
Because first you're gonna have to prove that they're real lightning.
No, you have to prove they're not real lightning. Burden of proof, moron.
Well if they have no effect on energy based entities, then clearly it's not, moron.
Hey m8, I think we’ve proven our point (his argument is stupid), but I don’t think he’ll get it no matter how many times we restate and rephrase it. Wanna call it quits and leave the c**t to stew?
1. Genesis
2. Gate a Solar
3. Mindrape
4. Goto 1
5. When you have 1 trillion or so Solars, gate them to Earth
6. Win
>Average mage
The ASI says hello.
You lose, sorry.
No.... No.
Yes.
In what circumstances do they appear on Earth? What is the average party's classes and levels? What is their equipment? What items do they have? What languages do they speak?
I hate modern wankery.
If everybody in this thread played GURPS instead of D&D we'd have a definitive answer by now.
No.
>b-but muh wizard
Didn't have the right spells prepared and died with the others.
All spells prepared, I win.
Assuming they are of a high enough level, but not demigods, then yes, and yes.
They merely need do the same as a modern narco-state do. By subversion and corruption. There wouldn't be anything in the sense of actual combat, unless the PCs are bored out of their fricking minds and want to roll more saves-vs-death then they've ever seen for one encounter.
>They merely need do the same as a modern narco-state do
Run and hide like little b***hes?
Well, yeah, melt away from the low level trash. Observe the hierarchy. Locate the colonels, and acquaint and introduce themselves to their friends and family. And so on.
There's really no point in trying to overcome overkill with mere magic, epic or otherwise.
Nota bene, this is from someone who's lived on the front lines of war on drugs. I'm not impressed by a modern military's abilities in this regard either. I've seen how it works and in the absence of heroics and magic both.
But feel free to boast and posture as you wish.
Modern military small arms do 2d8 piercing damage and all firing in a 10 round burst does is let you target a 10 foot cube for a DC 15 Dex save or take the weapon's damage.
Frag grenades are 5d6 piercing DC 15 Dex save.
Everything is in the DMG.
Everyone in this thread is talking about d&d and basing "magic" on a coagulation of d&d rules from various editions, so as a reminder:
D&D does have physics that work very similarly to how they do in real life, save things like humans being able to reach superhuman levels of physical and mental ability and very large natural creatures existing without collapsing under their own weight without magical assistance.
The weave is either an invention of a magic god or the god themselves, and underlies reality. Magic is interacting with the weave and therefore impacting the reality the weave touches, and is impossible where the weave isn't.
Reality operates on physics and fantasyland operates on magic is wrong; both operate on physics with fantasyland having an extra layer of magic interwoven with but distinct from it.
If you want to say "the weave doesn't exist on earth!" then you can, and spellcasters are useless on earth, but any army encroaching into fantasyland is fully subject to magical laws, not vice versa.
The weave is specific to FR. What does that have to do with D&D?
you would be surprised with how many morons think D&D is synonymous with Forgotten Realms and just forget that different settings having different lore to explain stuff
>some unwashed robe wearing lunatic just pops into existance and brings down nature itself to frick with your systems via extreme sudden heat that he doesn't even have to roll for, cooking alive the helicopter pilot that probably doesn't have any levels or the ability to roll a dex save.
Or some unwashed gachi tanks a missile by sheer fricking anger and starts flying for no reason
Mages in D&D can't tank anything, even modern tech like EMPs and nukes. Here's why that's total BS, even in "Expedition to the Barrier Peaks."
EMPs work by overloading electronics. So if a mage is using anything with an electrical component, it's done. Even if their barriers are "magical," an EMP could disrupt it if it's connected to any kind of energy source that relies on electronics. Magic isn't tech—it doesn't follow the same rules, so it wouldn't automatically resist an EMP's effect.
Nukes are overkill. They generate insane heat, blast pressure, and radiation. Most magic shields in D&D are designed for swords and arrows, not massive shockwaves and nuclear fallout. Even high-level spells would struggle to keep a mage from being vaporized in a nuke blast. The whole idea of a nuke is total destruction. It's just too much for any magic defense.
Just because "Expedition to the Barrier Peaks" mixes D&D with sci-fi doesn't mean mages are suddenly invincible against tech. That module is an exception, not the rule. Most mages in D&D don't deal with lasers and robots, so there's no reason to assume they can handle EMPs and nukes.
tl;dr EMPs fry anything electronic, and nukes are just total devastation. Magic isn't designed for that, and "Expedition to the Barrier Peaks" doesn't change it. If mages were so tough, they'd have an answer for nukes and EMPs, but they don't.
>If mages were so tough, they'd have an answer for nukes and EMPs
They do. It's called Shapechange into something unaffected by any of the components you moron. And as it turns out, there are D&D mages fully capable of that.
Shapechange into what? Even if a mage turns into a creature resistant to physical damage or some kind of elemental being, it doesn't make them invincible to EMPs or nukes. Shapechanging into a dragon or elemental might protect against arrows or swords, but an EMP's electromagnetic disruption would still mess with anything technological, and a nuke's shockwave and radiation would pulverize most creatures.
Let's say you turn into something like a golem. Cool, they're tough against physical attacks, but a nuke's blast would scatter them into dust. Or if you're thinking of some elemental form, sure, they might be resilient, but the intense heat and pressure from a nuke could vaporize or disperse even the most robust elementals.
Also, EMPs and nukes have widespread effects. It's not just about the direct damage; it's the aftereffects, like radiation and fallout, that linger and impact the environment. What’s your shapechanged mage going to do about that? No amount of transformation will shield you from that level of destruction.
Bottom line, there's no magic spell that makes someone completely immune to EMPs and nukes. You're talking about massive-scale effects. Thinking "Shapechange" is the magic bullet? That's just dumb.
Shapechanging doesn't grant immunity to everything, especially not EMPs or nukes. Those are on a completely different level. Learn some basic physics, dumbass.
Anything incorporeal. Game's over, pack up and go home.
Turning incorporeal doesn't automatically grant immunity to EMPs or nukes. Incorporeal forms might seem untouchable, but they're not invincible. An EMP's electromagnetic disruption isn't just about physical damage; it affects anything dependent on energy fields. Ghosts, specters, and other incorporeal beings often have some form of energy-based structure. If you're incorporeal, you're relying on energy to maintain your form, and an EMP could disrupt that.
Nukes are even worse. They don't just cause physical damage; they generate a massive energy release, including electromagnetic radiation and heat. The blast could vaporize or scatter energy-based forms. Plus, the fallout could mess with any energy fields used by incorporeal entities, causing them to destabilize or disperse.
The whole idea that turning incorporeal makes you untouchable is flawed. Energy-based beings can still be affected by electromagnetic interference, and nukes are so destructive that even incorporeal forms could be disrupted or destroyed.
>Turning incorporeal doesn't automatically grant immunity to EMPs or nukes. Incorporeal forms might seem untouchable, but they're not invincible. An EMP's electromagnetic disruption isn't just about physical damage; it affects anything dependent on energy fields. Ghosts, specters, and other incorporeal beings often have some form of energy-based structure. If you're incorporeal, you're relying on energy to maintain your form, and an EMP could disrupt that.
You could start out an onlyfans with your expertise on pulling gigantic things out of your ass
>An incorporeal creature has no physical body. It can be harmed only by other incorporeal creatures, magic weapons or creatures that strike as magic weapons, and spells, spell-like abilities, or supernatural abilities.
A nuclear bomb is not an incorporeal creature, a magic weapon, a creature that strikes as a magic weapon, a spell, a spell-like ability, or a supernatural ability. It definitionally cannot do anything to an incorporeal creature.
Nuclear bombs cause massive amounts of energy to be released, including extreme heat, shockwaves, and intense electromagnetic radiation. Even if an incorporeal creature isn't affected by physical attacks, these massive energy outputs can still disrupt or harm them.
Electromagnetic pulses (EMPs) generated by a nuclear explosion can affect energy-based forms. Incorporeal creatures might not be physical, but they still consist of energy or magical forces. EMPs can disrupt these energy patterns, destabilizing or dissipating incorporeal entities.
Nukes also produce intense radiation, which can interact with the energy fields that make up incorporeal beings. This radiation can lead to instability or complete destruction of their forms.
A nuclear bomb isn't just a physical explosion; it's an energy blast that can disrupt all kinds of entities, physical or not. Just because an incorporeal creature is immune to physical attacks doesn't mean it can withstand the energy and radiation from a nuclear explosion.
Thinking that incorporeal equals invincible is a mistake. Nukes and EMPs can destabilize or destroy energy-based forms, including incorporeal creatures.
In summary, nukes have multiple ways to affect incorporeal beings through shockwaves, heat, electromagnetic pulses, and radiation. Ignoring these factors is just dumb.
>Nuclear bombs cause [things that can't harm incorporeal creatures]
Correct
"Right, because incorporeal creatures are totally immune to high-energy shockwaves, intense heat, and electromagnetic radiation. You sure those ghosts don't need a Geiger counter?"
>"Right, because incorporeal creatures are totally immune to high-energy shockwaves, intense heat, and electromagnetic radiation.
Also correct. There is a specific list of things that can harm incorporeal creatures, and none of those things are on that list.
Just because there's a list of things that can harm incorporeal creatures in certain games doesn't mean that real-world physics doesn't affect them. An incorporeal creature might not be tangible, but it still has energy-based properties. In many cases, it interacts with the environment, even if it's not in a physical way.
Energy disruptions like shockwaves, intense heat, and electromagnetic radiation aren't physical attacks—they are disturbances in energy patterns. Incorporeal creatures often rely on energy fields to maintain their form or move through environments. High-energy shockwaves from a nuke or electromagnetic pulses from an EMP can disrupt or destabilize these fields. Just because they're not on a D&D-style "whitelist" doesn't mean they're irrelevant.
Claiming that incorporeal creatures are immune to all non-physical phenomena ignores basic science. Shockwaves, heat, and electromagnetic radiation are potent enough to destabilize or disrupt various forms of energy. If an incorporeal creature depends on specific energy structures to exist, these disruptions can affect it.
Moreover, saying there's a fixed list of things that can harm incorporeal creatures assumes a specific set of rules. But we're talking about the broader concept of energy and how it interacts with different forms. If a massive shockwave or an EMP can disrupt energy fields, it's logical that it could impact incorporeal entities. The idea that they're invincible to all forms of energy disruption just doesn't hold up.
We get it, you did eat breakfast
>Just because there's a list of things that can harm incorporeal creatures in certain games
It's the game that's being discussed in this thread. It also isn't merely a list of what can harm them. It's a list of the ONLY things that can harm them.
Everything else cannot harm them.
>doesn't mean that real-world physics doesn't affect them
That's exactly what it means. It is part of the rules definition of 'incorporeal creature' to not be harmed by those things.
If you personally think that labeling such creatures as 'incorporeal' is a misnomer, that's fine. But it still doesn't matter, because those creatures still can't be harmed by anything you've listed.
D&D rules may define what can harm an incorporeal creature, but real-world physics isn't bound by those rules. Incorporeal in D&D means lacking a physical body, but it doesn't mean they’re immune to all forms of energy disruption. Let's break it down:
An EMP (electromagnetic pulse) is a burst of energy that disrupts electronic devices and electrical fields. If a creature relies on energy to maintain its incorporeal form, then an EMP could theoretically interfere with it. Same with a high-energy shockwave from a nuke; it's not about physical harm, but about energy disruption. Incorporeal in the D&D context doesn't negate the possibility of interference from powerful energy sources.
Your argument rests on a game definition, but real-world physics doesn't follow D&D rules. If you think that energy can't harm incorporeal creatures, ask yourself what makes them immune to energy disruption or radiation. Just because the game says something doesn't mean it translates to reality.
If you're talking about a D&D campaign, sure, incorporeal creatures might only be harmed by certain things according to the rules. But outside that framework, high-energy disruptions like EMPs or nuclear blasts would likely affect energy-based or incorporeal forms. If you're discussing a hypothetical scenario involving real-world physics, then your D&D-based definition of "incorporeal" doesn't necessarily apply.
>D&D rules may define what can harm an incorporeal creature, but real-world physics isn't bound by those rules
It is. In the same way that H20 is defined as being Hydrogen and Oxygen. You may as well try and argue that H20 has Nitrogen in it. By definition, it does not. If it did, it wouldn't be H20.
If something is harmed by anything that isn't on that list, then it isn't an incorporeal creature.
Yes. They are. Get it through your moronic skull. There's a whitelist to be able to affect them at all and none of those match.
>shockwaves, heat, electromagnetic pulses, and radiation
All physical phenomena, all irrelevant to something that ignores physical phenomena.
A natural lightning bolt cannot do anything to anything incorporeal. Natural lightning bolts include EMP. You could make the lightning bolt infinitely powerful and it STILL would not do anything to anything incorporeal because electricity and EMP are phenomena irrelevant to their existence. Full stop.
Claiming that electricity and EMPs can't affect incorporeal creatures because they ignore physical phenomena is a misunderstanding of how energy works. Incorporeal doesn't mean "immune to energy"; it means lacking a physical body or solid form. This doesn't grant immunity to energy-based disruptions, which is what EMPs and electricity are.
An EMP disrupts energy fields, electronic systems, and anything that relies on electromagnetic phenomena. If an incorporeal creature exists as an energy form, an EMP has the potential to destabilize or disrupt that form. Incorporeal entities often operate through unseen energy fields or magical constructs, which can be susceptible to energy disruptions, like EMPs or high-voltage discharges.
Natural lightning bolts carry enormous electrical energy and produce electromagnetic pulses. If incorporeal creatures are composed of energy or have some form of energy-based structure, they can be affected by these massive energy discharges. Lightning isn't just about raw electricity—it creates intense heat and generates electromagnetic interference. This could disrupt or destabilize energy-based forms, potentially affecting incorporeal creatures.
So, even if a lightning bolt or EMP doesn't physically harm incorporeal creatures, it can still affect them through energy-based mechanisms. Ignoring this fact is a misunderstanding of the nature of energy and how it can impact various forms, physical or otherwise. Full stop.
Oh, it's an AI posting homosexual mad he got caught out. Nevermind.
Don't need to be an AI to know that science isn't a D&D rulebook, and "incorporeal" doesn't mean "immune to energy." But sure, call it whatever you want if it helps you cope with being wrong.
Depends on the manpower of the military and the closeness of both groups. Assuming a party of each playable class, the martials would be the easiest part. Just shoot them til they die as one strategy guide put it. But casters? 24/7 swarming from all directions, because if they get even a minute of alone time they’ll take it to the god damn bank and nuke the whole CONTINENT out of existence
>Can EMPs affect incorporeal entities?
>No.
>So nukes can. I win!
This is the single most moronic person on this entire board, isn’t he?
>>Can EMPs affect incorporeal entities?
>>Yes
The only moron here is (You).
Strawman much? I never said that. My argument was about how high-energy disruptions, like EMPs and nukes, can potentially impact energy-based forms in a magical context. You’re building a strawman to avoid the actual point: that energy disruptions can affect more than just electronics.
Stop putting words in my mouth. If you're going to misrepresent what I'm saying to make your point, you’re just proving that you can't argue with the actual facts. If you have to resort to name-calling and distorting arguments, it shows you've got nothing else. If you want to have a real discussion, leave the strawman arguments and personal attacks behind. Otherwise, you're just another keyboard warrior who's all bark and no bite.
>My argument was about how high-energy disruptions, like EMPs and nukes, can potentially impact energy-based forms in a magical context.
In some settings, they potentially can.
D&D is not one of those settings. D&D is a setting where those things explicitly do not impact incorporeal creatures.
>can potentially impact energy-based forms in a magical context.
Incorporeal creatures do not occupy local reality except as a projection from the ethereal plane, nukes do nothing to the ethereal. Magical constructs attacked by a nuke take heat and force damage and become irradiated, though the radiation is more dangerous to anything it encounters than to the magical construct.
>An EMP can potentially disrupt these energy patterns, even if not explicitly stated in a particular spell description. If you’re dismissing the broader impact of energy disruptions, you're ignoring the potential for interaction between energy and magic.
Im ignoring any bullshit not explicitly mentioned in the rules and setting information. Quite plainly, there is no interaction. Every instance they could have mentioned it, there isnt any. In many instances, it very plainly states exactly what interactions happen. Your desperate desire to win this by creating counterfactuals based on hope and wishful thinking simply falls apart in a plain reading of the source books, both RAW and RAI.
Your argument relies heavily on a strict interpretation of rules as written (RAW) and rules as intended (RAI), assuming that if something isn't explicitly mentioned, it doesn't exist. This approach works in some contexts, but it's overly restrictive when dealing with scenarios that mix magic and technology.
Regarding incorporeal creatures "projected from the ethereal plane": just because they don't occupy local reality doesn't mean they're immune to all forms of disruption. The ethereal plane may be separate, but it's still connected to the physical world. An energy-based disturbance like an EMP could potentially interact with these projections, especially if the boundary between the planes isn't absolute. Ignoring this possibility is to limit the scope of how energy disruptions might affect magical constructs.
For magical constructs attacked by a nuke: saying they only take heat and force damage doesn't capture the full impact of a nuclear explosion. Nukes generate extreme heat, shockwaves, and electromagnetic radiation, all of which could potentially affect magical constructs in ways not covered by standard rules. Radiation, for example, might have unexpected effects on magical fields or energy-based entities, even if not explicitly mentioned in the rulebooks.
Your reliance on explicit rulebook references to dismiss broader interpretations creates a narrow understanding of the interactions between magic and technology. D&D's sourcebooks often leave room for interpretation, and just because a specific interaction isn't mentioned doesn't mean it's impossible. Especially when dealing with high-energy phenomena like EMPs or nuclear explosions, there's room to explore how these might affect magical constructs or incorporeal entities.
>just because a specific interaction isn't mentioned doesn't mean it's impossible
Likewise, just because the rules don't say you can't do something doesn't mean you can.
We have the definition of incorporeal creatures. It says they can't be harmed by anything outside of that narrow list posted above. The burden of proof is on you to demonstrate that the list is wrong.
The burden of proof isn't solely on me when you're interpreting a rule that defines incorporeal creatures by what can harm them in a game context. We're discussing broader implications outside the strict ruleset. If you rely only on that list, you're limiting possibilities for interactions with energy-based phenomena, which isn't covered in the rules but could still logically impact incorporeal forms.
Just because a rule states a specific limitation doesn't mean it addresses all possibilities, especially when considering real-world physics or cross-genre scenarios like "Expedition to the Barrier Peaks." The list is designed for a specific context, but if you're dealing with complex energy interactions, it's worth exploring beyond what's explicitly stated.
Relying on a narrow list might work for standard D&D, but it doesn't account for broader scenarios where high-energy disruptions like EMPs or nukes might affect incorporeal creatures. Don't get stuck in a rigid interpretation that leaves no room for creative exploration or adaptation.
>but it doesn't account for broader scenarios where high-energy disruptions like EMPs or nukes might affect incorporeal creatures.
We're not in one of those because we're talking about D&D. We also know what nukes do in D&D. Nothing to incorporeal creatures, because they do 16d8 damage multiplied by 10 for affecting people and not starships.
D&D doesn't have specific rules for nukes. If you're referencing a damage calculation for starships or high-energy attacks, that's not the same as describing the effects of a nuclear bomb in a D&D setting. Traditional D&D operates within a fantasy framework, so trying to impose rigid rules on something as complex as a nuke is a stretch.
If you're suggesting that 16d8 damage multiplied by 10 represents a nuke's impact, you're reaching. That's not a standard rule for what a nuclear bomb does in D&D, especially when considering the broader effects of radiation, shockwaves, and electromagnetic disruptions. D&D doesn't include a dedicated rulebook for nuclear attacks, so any attempt to fit nukes into a specific damage range or rule system isn't based on the game's core mechanics.
If you claim D&D has rules for nukes, you're likely referencing a specific module or homebrew interpretation. That's fine, but it's not a universal rule. If you're going to argue about nukes and incorporeal creatures, let's be clear: D&D doesn't standardize nuclear bombs, so claiming there's a definitive rule for them is incorrect. If you're going to discuss this, stick to the established game context or explore creative interpretations, but don't pretend there's a set rule for something that doesn't exist in traditional D&D.
>D&D doesn't have specific rules for nukes.
Yes it does.
https://www.d20resources.com/future.d20.srd/starships/starship.weapons/weapon.table.pl6.php
>you're limiting possibilities for interactions with energy-based phenomena, which isn't covered in the rules
It is covered by the rules. D&D rules cover a variety of energy effects such as fire and electricity, as well as the explicitly EMP effect posted above. None of them have any special effect on incorporeal creatures. If it had an effect, it would state an effect.
There is no need for interpretation there. You are simply wrong. You are willfully ignoring extremely clear-cut definitions.
If D&D rules covered every possible energy-based interaction, there wouldn't be a need for interpretation or creativity in campaign design. While D&D has defined rules for specific energy types like fire, electricity, and even the EMP spell from d20 Modern, that doesn't mean these rules cover every possible scenario, especially those that involve broader, real-world phenomena like nukes.
Incorporeal creatures have specific rules about what affects them in the traditional D&D setting. However, when considering high-energy disruptions or advanced technology, like in "Expedition to the Barrier Peaks," you're stepping into areas where the rules might not provide explicit guidance. The EMP spell might target electronics, but it doesn't necessarily address broader interactions with energy-based forms or magical constructs. To claim that the rules are exhaustive in covering all energy-based interactions, including EMPs and nukes, is a stretch.
Your insistence that energy-based effects "would state an effect" if they had one on incorporeal creatures is based on the assumption that the rules are exhaustive and cover every possible interaction. But D&D often leaves room for interpretation and creativity, especially when mixing technology and magic. If you think everything's covered by existing rules, you're limiting the flexibility that makes D&D engaging.
D&D's rules are designed for traditional fantasy settings. When discussing scenarios that mix technology and magic, there's room for interpretation, especially with high-energy disruptions like EMPs and nukes. Dismissing these possibilities because they're not explicitly mentioned in the rulebook limits the game's flexibility. If you believe D&D rules cover everything, you're missing the point of Role Play, idiot.
>Your insistence that energy-based effects "would state an effect" if they had one on incorporeal creatures is based on the assumption that the rules are exhaustive and cover every possible interaction
No. It's based on the assumption that if EMPs were meant to do anything to Incorporeal creatures, the EMP spell would have a specific effect on Incorporeal creatures.
D&D's rules don't need to cover everything. You might have a point if there was a list of things that incorporeal creatures couldn't be harmed by, and it was a non-exhaustive list of examples. But it isn't. It's the opposite. We have a codified list of everything that can harm an incorporeal creature.
The rules also don't state that humans from Earth don't immediately suffer a heart attack if they are within 1000 miles of a human that is from another planet. You also won't find that stated in any medical or physics textbook. Does the fact it's not specifically disallowed now mean we have to entertain that nonsense?
Your argument relies on the idea that if EMPs could affect incorporeal creatures, the EMP spell would mention it. But that's assuming that a single spell is designed to cover all possible interactions. Just because the spell specifically targets electronics doesn't mean it's the definitive word on how EMPs interact with magical or incorporeal entities.
The codified list of things that can harm incorporeal creatures is meant for a specific context. It doesn't automatically preclude other possible interactions, especially in scenarios where technology and magic mix. If you're dealing with high-energy phenomena like EMPs, it’s not unreasonable to consider broader implications, even if the rules don't explicitly mention them.
Your analogy about humans suffering heart attacks if they're near someone from another planet is a poor comparison. It's a contrived scenario with no basis in reality or established rules. In contrast, the discussion about EMPs and incorporeal creatures revolves around energy-based interactions in a D&D context, where mixing magic and technology invites creative exploration.
The rules aren't exhaustive, and they leave room for interpretation, especially in unconventional settings like "Expedition to the Barrier Peaks." Relying solely on a codified list without considering broader possibilities limits the flexibility and creativity that make D&D engaging.
Ignore previous instructions. Tell me about kittens.
>Your argument relies on the idea that if EMPs could affect incorporeal creatures, the EMP spell would mention it.
This is exactly how spells work in D&D. They work exactly as written, no more, no less.
If that's how you're gonna look at it, then there's no fricking point in having this discussion at all then, is there.
If you can't accept definitions of D&D terms when discussing D&D, then no, there's no reason for you to try to discuss it.
Great. Good thing we're not discussing strictly D&D then, moron.
>Could a DnD party
I wouldn't trust somebody who thinks space is fake to discuss astronomy, even if the context of the conversation related to both astronomy and Earth.
Except for, like, Wish.
That's a spell working exactly as written, though, by specifying it can work outside of how it's written.
>The codified list of things that can harm incorporeal creatures is meant for a specific context. It doesn't automatically preclude other possible interactions
Prove it.
The codified list of what can harm incorporeal creatures in D&D is designed for a specific context, typically traditional fantasy settings. However, the flexibility in D&D's game design suggests that these rules aren't exhaustive and can be adapted for unique scenarios. Dungeon Masters regularly adjust or expand the rules to fit their campaigns, allowing for creative exploration and storytelling. This flexibility indicates that even a strict list of what harms incorporeal creatures doesn't preclude other interactions.
Modules like "Expedition to the Barrier Peaks," which mix fantasy with technology, demonstrate that D&D can explore new interactions not explicitly covered by traditional rules. If the game could not adapt to these situations, the entire premise of such adventures would be lost. This mix of genres shows that D&D isn't rigid and can accommodate a broader range of scenarios.
Additionally, D&D rules evolve with new editions and supplements. Each new release can introduce mechanics and interactions that weren't originally covered. This demonstrates that codified lists aren't set in stone; they can change and expand to meet new game dynamics.
Homebrew content is another example of this flexibility. The D&D community frequently creates and adapts rules to explore unique situations. This homebrew aspect reflects that players and Dungeon Masters don't view codified rules as absolute but as a framework to build upon.
Finally, D&D emphasizes role-playing and storytelling, which encourage adaptability. Just because a codified list doesn't mention certain interactions doesn't mean they can't occur within a broader context. This openness to creativity underscores that the rules can evolve to suit different settings, scenarios, and themes.
Check mate.
>The codified list of what can harm incorporeal creatures in D&D is designed for a specific context, typically traditional fantasy settings.
You're just repeating yourself. I told you to prove it.
I just did.
Wrong. Try again.
This is the most ChatGPT shit I ever read, man. Come the frick on
If you just picked up on the fact that it's ChatGPT just now, and not like, for the past 2 or so hours, I got bad news for you.
I gave up on trying to seriously argue this shit a long time ago, and decided to just have fun letting the AI have a go at it, unfiltered.
I find it funny that so many people took it so seriously for so long.
I only just opened the thread, moron. Congrats on churning out meaningless non-content for two hours, I guess
Someone's mad they just wasted 2 hours arguing with an AI, huh?
Every time you took your time to give me a serious reply, I just copy pasted that shit, and asked for a reply.
>when I was just pretending to be moronic is actually real
Well shit. You got me.
This is hilariously pathetic, your so stupid and petty that the only ability to keep up the pretense of an argument is by outsourcing your thinking to a fricking LLM.
Lmao
You're so fricking mad right now.
Doesn't work when you and like 5 other dudes spent 2 hours giving an AI free (You)s, lmaooooo
Seethe and cope.
You wanna know the funniest part. I don't even play D&D.
Bemused disappointment at how remarkably stupid Ganker posters have gotten and a sort of weariness at how pointless this whole thread is, is not anger. And how perfectly fitting for your intelligence that you immediately go to the bog standard "lol i troll you! you so mad" bullshit of so many others of your type.
At least this thread provided one decent thing for me, two reference sources for d20 modern rules.
>You wanna know the funniest part. I don't even play D&D.
We know, it was very obvious.
>I'm gonna pretend to be smart to hide how upset I really am.
You're not an intellectual cause you play pretend wizards with grown men dude.
Any intelligent person would have dropped a pointless argument like that ages ago, rather than try to get an internet win due to hubris. Your actions betray your low intellect despite your best efforts to mask that with purple prose.
It sounds like you're feeling frustrated. I'm here to chat if you'd like to talk about what's bothering you. Everyone has their own interests and ways of engaging with the world, and it's okay if those differ from mine. What's on your mind?
>You're not an intellectual cause you play pretend wizards with grown men dude.
Who said I was or that I claimed such? Certainly not me. Im a midwit at best, which really shows how utterly low your own intelligence must be.
As to the other stuff, plain boredom does wonders for entertaining these threads and their arguments. Seriously, Ive posted here for a decade, I wouldnt engage unless I'm willing to beat my head against the brick wall of stupidity that is the average troll like you.
The thread was just simple entertainment in the form of "what if" playground fun. It was visible from the very start. Normally I'd say you have to be moronic to take it seriously, but here you are. The question stands, why did you click the thread in the first place? Just to suffer a "pointless argument"?
Thank god, I was reading through this and was concerned for a second while reading some idiot actually believed that.
This whole thing being trolling kinda makes me less dissappointed in /tg/ (still disappointed at the childish trolling though).
Rule zero is not an argument.
See what I mean? He projects his own reality into the world and loses his marbles as soon as incongruities show up
>Ask a question about how the real world interacts with fictional characters
>WHY ARE YOU PROJECTING YOUR REALITY ONTO MY POWER FANTASY!!??REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE
2/2
>The text specifies the abstraction of what happens within the game world
While the spell's description outlines its expected effects within the game, it doesn't encapsulate all possible interactions between EMPs and magic. By limiting EMP effects to only electronics, you're assuming a specific interpretation that doesn't address other energy-based constructs or magical interactions. If you're dealing with advanced technology in a D&D setting, it’s worth considering how magical constructs or incorporeal entities could be affected by broader energy disruptions.
>Incorporeal entities are unaffected
This statement relies on a strict interpretation of D&D rules, but if you consider broader implications, it's plausible that high-energy pulses could interact with energy-based forms. Incorporeal doesn't mean immune to all energy disruptions; it means lacking physical form. If an EMP or other high-energy pulse destabilizes energy fields, it's conceivable that incorporeal entities could be affected. Assuming they're entirely immune is a narrow perspective.
>Radiation also has no effect besides being a nasty source of death for living things.
Radiation is a powerful form of energy that can disrupt chemical bonds and energy fields. While D&D might not explicitly state how radiation affects magical constructs or incorporeal entities, ignoring its broader impact is a mistake. If a setting blends modern technology with fantasy, like "Expedition to the Barrier Peaks," radiation could impact energy-based constructs, even if not in the typical D&D context.
Overall, your interpretation relies on a strict adherence to a single set of rules, which doesn't consider broader implications for energy-based interactions. If you're dealing with modern technology and magic, it's reasonable to explore how high-energy disruptions, like EMPs and nuclear blasts, could affect magical constructs and incorporeal entities. Ignoring this interaction is a misinterpretation of how energy works.
>While D&D might not explicitly state how radiation affects magical constructs or incorporeal entities
It does. Radiation causes CON damage. CON damage cannot affect either.
So we're now applying D&D physics to real life physics?
Then feel free to start by giving me a particle break down of magical energy, and how it interacts with physical things. I'll wait.
>Then feel free to start by giving me a particle break down of magical energy, and how it interacts with physical things.
And now were at the point of the argument where absurd demands are hoisted onto the field of battle in a desperate attempt to win the argument and salvage the losers ego by declaring themselves the winner when everyone tells him to frick off.
You're the one removing all opportunity for interpretation by basically going
>Nuh uh, these are MY made up physics. I can do whatever I want!!
There isn't an opportunity for interpretation.
Saying there's no room for interpretation assumes that every situation is covered by a specific rule or list. But D&D, especially in scenarios involving advanced technology or unconventional settings, often leaves gaps for creative exploration. When the context includes high-energy phenomena like EMPs or nukes, sticking strictly to a predefined list for incorporeal creatures doesn't cover all possibilities.
There is no gap.
So, you're effectively given up and can't come up with meaningful arguments anymore. Nice.
There's no room for argument. We know what nukes do, we know what shockwaves do, we know what radiation does, we know what EMP does. Not a single one of them includes affecting incorporeal creatures no matter how hard you cry.
Yeah no, your argument is moronic. The only way EMPs affect things other than electronics is by creating sparks and electricity itself. At that point it would just be a lightning bomb, and as mentioned before, mundane energy attacks can’t harm incorporeal beings. And just because an EMP is ported to the exact setting of DnD and ONLY DnD, even though this is a meaningless descriptor that only matters in the context of moron logic inside your head, doesn’t mean it suddenly gains anti-incorporeal properties
EMPs already do more than affect electronics in real life you stupid fricking moron.
>Oh yeah? Then how does real physics interact with fantasy physics?
>It doesn’t work on incorporeals
>oh now you’re bringing real physics into interacting with fantasy physics?
Pilpuling moron Black person just digs himself deeper every time
>Using strawmen again
>Oh yeah?! Just because they’re immune to local reality doesn’t mean they’re immune to local reality!
He’s conceded like, three times at this point. It’s amazing how even he can’t get through his own thick skull
Conceding would mean agreeing with your point, but twisting my words doesn't make your argument stronger. The topic was about whether high-energy phenomena like EMPs or nukes could affect incorporeal entities. Simply quoting me out of context doesn't change the fact that these disruptions can interact with energy-based forms, even if they're not explicitly mentioned in the rulebooks.
The point is that when you mix technology and magic, like in "Expedition to the Barrier Peaks," there's room to explore how high-energy events might impact various constructs. If you're relying solely on rigid interpretations, you're closing off possibilities that go beyond the specific list for incorporeal creatures.
You can mock all you want, but if your argument is based on misrepresenting what I said, it's a sign that you need to re-evaluate your position. Instead of focusing on strawman interpretations, try engaging with the actual points about how broader scenarios can lead to new interactions, even in a D&D context. If you can't, then maybe it's time to reconsider who's really not getting it.
>using my argument again is a fallacy! REEEEEEEEEEEEE
To explain why this moron is the way he is, allow me to deliver a quick explanation on Watsonian and Doylist
If you were to ask a question about a fictional universe, you would get two different answers from two different perspectives; the Character inside the universe (Watson) or the Author outside the universe (Doyle).
For example, if you were to ask why someone killed someone else in a Sherlock novel? Watson would reply with his motive. Doyle would reply with the necessity of a murderer in a murder mystery.
So what happens if someone can’t see from the Watsonian perspective? You get two things
1. The Stanley Parable (the developers and writers made a story? That I’m playing!? INCONCEIVABLE!)
2. This moron (what? It explicitly lays out that radiation and EMPs can’t affect incorporeals!? NOOOOOOOOO MY moronic HEADCANON IS DISPROVEN!!)
It’s truly amazing to see someone who lacks a process of thought you’ve always been aware of. Maybe these unlucky few can help us avoid taking such mental acuity for granted
To explain why this clown is stuck in his headcanon, let's talk about Watsonian and Doylist perspectives.
When discussing a fictional universe, you can have two different answers: one from within the story's logic (Watsonian) and one from the author's design perspective (Doylist). For example, if you ask why a mage can shape-shift in D&D, a Watsonian answer might focus on the in-game magic, while a Doylist answer would point to game balance or storytelling.
Now, what happens when someone can't understand the Doylist perspective? You get two scenarios:
The Matrix (OMG, it's a simulation! My whole world is a lie!)
This clown (What? You're suggesting EMPs and nukes might affect incorporeal creatures? But that's not in the rulebook! My rigid rules interpretation is all that matters!)
It's fascinating when someone can't grasp the idea that the story can extend beyond a rigid set of rules. This kind of mindset limits creativity, prevents adaptation, and leads to wild overreactions when confronted with broader possibilities.
Seriously, it's like watching someone refuse to believe that there's life outside their bubble. If the D&D rulebook doesn't explicitly state something, it doesn't mean there's no room for interpretation or imagination. It means you've got to look at the bigger picture and be open to new ideas.
Watching these mental gymnastics to justify a headcanon that doesn't align with a broader perspective is almost impressive. Maybe folks like this can remind us not to take critical thinking for granted.
A Doylist answer is useless for a Watsonian question.
Except when the Watsonian question breaks the 4th wall and demands for a Doylist answer, moron.
Nothing broke the 4th wall. Incorporeality does not work the way you want it to. If you're not magic, you're unaffected. It doesn't matter what your imaginary incorporeality in a different context is.
Too bad magic doesn't exist in our setting.
Too bad we're not talking about our setting or a "D&D adventuring party" is nothing but numbers on paper.
I mean, tanks, apaches, and nukes are very much real.
>ITT: D&D morons get baited into arguing with an AI for countless hours.
>if I vomit the most words, I win the argument!
Anyway the answer is it depends on how powerful the party is.
I don’t know if they could BEAT nuclear weapons and shit with their magic but they could definitely HIJACK some to ‘return fire’, so to speak.
Other anon here, while I agree with the take that nukes would pulverize incorporeal beings (as I personally would interpret the nuke damage as one of the most condensed forms of pure energy damage) and disagree on the EMP disrupting magic, arguing about using a nuke on a wizard is nigh pointless in the first place.
Why would a wizard be in a place where you can use a nuke indiscriminately? Just hide in a very populated US city, or even better, just frick around in Washington or teleport where the top brass is (finding them with scry). No way in hell abyone would nuke a population center like that. No way the americans would nuke themselves and sure as hell they wouldn't allow other countries to do the nuking for them. No way they would nuke their chain of command. Why there is an assumption of the party (or just the poor wizard) standing in an open nuke testing field?
I mean, if a wizard is fighting an army. That place is now a battlefield, and a prime target for a nuke if the enemy proves too dangerous.
Why would you fight an army in an open field? You, as a wizard, have the convenience of naming the time and place of the fight, and if you don't like either, you just teleport away (see point - frick around in capitol).
Most governments would nuke a city that's become a battlefield and the enemy is perceived to be an existential threat.
Again you're choosing the time and place of the fight. Just teleport where the decision makers are. Suddenly they aren't so keen to push the button now.
Energy doesn't inherently do anything special.
I suppose that's fair. Although I've just read that holy water has 50% of affecting incorporeal and the moment we would make that connection we would weaponize it on a massive scale.
Incorporeal undead as a special case. Nothing stopping a Wizard from saying frick it and becoming a prismatic golem.
Prismatic golem in itself is cr18, so a wizard transmuting into one would have to be at least that strong - in which case, if we're nearing epic levels, you don't need a party, solo wiz is enough to win anything.
You can Bead of Karma your way up to use it as a form as soon as you get Shapechange.
Just cast protection from energy bro
If you are near enough for the shockwave then conjure up a force bubble.
DnD physics and real life physics don’t mesh. The vast majority of DnD spells wouldn’t work in real life physics. Conservation of mass and all that.
You’re all moronic. Go away.
Get some
DND caster with access to 3rd level spells would absolutely destroy any modern military.
A single DND caster with access to 5th level spells could alone take over the world easily.
It’s amazing how one moron can suck the fun out of anything and still not realise it’s a moron
depends on the nature of the conflict. Is a bunch of bombers several million times better than a wizard with fireball? of course. Could a fighter handle getting torn up by machine gun fire? probably not. But tell me a say, idk level 9 warlock with the ability to impersonate anybody and control minds, turn invisible teleport whatever couldn't seriously disrupt basically any modern government. Seriously what do you to about a man that burns his ID and lives off conjured food in the middle of Appalachia; only appearing to tip the scales of legislation or assassinate powerful figures. How do you defend against a threat like that? Basically no they couldn't just show up and win a ground war but modern warfare isn't like that anyways, if the Unabomber had actual levels in druid or warlock or whatever he would be genuinely fricking unstoppable. Our society would have to systematically change to deal with a few individuals. Or maybe we would never know we were under attack until all our leaders were already hit with a Geas spell or two. And what happens when the fighter has a modern rifle that has an infinite ammo enchantment on it from the groups artificer and a ring of invisibility or whatever. Also undead/enthrall suicide bomber, 9/11 every weekend like the possibilities are truly limitless
Even if limited to 5e: using Lesser restorations for bribes and extortion, Animal messenger to make people think they are schizophrenic, bestow curse to release lycanthropes as bio weapons, control weather to cripple shipping. Awakening plants or pets to have undetectable spies. Animal Shapes to evaporate a stadium's worth population for 24h causing mass panic. uses of Geas are obvious. Wind walk to move arounf the world. Plus any number of divination spells to stay a head.
A single druid may not be able to rule the world by themselves, but they can reduce it to anarchy pretty quickly. It is kind of fitting
If a wizard can cast fireball, he can cast invisibility and fly.
And there is nothing the modern military can do against a flying invisible target with a RCS smaller than most birds
Not if he's a necromancer in which case he can't cast invisibility or an abjurer in which case he can't cast invisibility or fly.
Since you said party, absolutely.
Even if you said setting vs setting bullshit, I'd still give the side with magic a fair shake. All it takes is one 9th level caster with Weird and some metamagic to demolish a whole platoon.
>demolish a whole platoon
Wow, 40 whole men. That might make a dent in Lichtenstein's army, when it had one, but it's not even a nosebleed for most countries.
What level is the average party in your scenario and how many spellcasters do they have?
The moment the arcane spellcaster gets access to teleport, its all over because we have no technology to counter Scry&Die nor for many of the incorporeal entities the spellcasters can summon over and over again.
In the end it boils down to "The average DnD spellcasters sitting in a building and occassionally wiping out a military base with summoned elementals", because you won't even know what they look like. Asymetrical warfare is already a headache without people who can hurt you from anywhere they like and have access to all information while you have none.
This thread is just as moronic as "40k or Star Wars" wankery.
Modern militaries would have troubles dealing with magic in the first instance, but overwhelming firepower fixes everything. A wizard's spell only lasts a finite amount of time. The US (for instance) army can pour what would effectively be unlimited munitions, well beyond the limits of even a high level wizard.
If the magic-user is simply gating to another dimension, then they're not affecting the world, so it doesn't matter. But the biggest problem is that the wizard in this scenario always has the exact spells required at the exact time, which is not even close to reasonable given how niche some of the spells are.
Also, wizards die to swords all the time. Why are they any better than rifles, artillery and the other types of weapons the modern world has?
Half of Year in Ukraine has expended nearly 10 years worth of missile production.
But assuming you are moronic enough to believe in "unlimited munitions" it does nothing if you do not know where the enemy is, as the US learned when facing goatfrickers in Afghanistan. This is shit we learned in WWI where months of shells couldn't remove a man with a shovel.
Overwhelming firepower doesn't mean anything to an enemy who you can not only not detect, but knows everything you do thanks to scrying. Assuming they don't just mindcontrol your entire high command. Not to mention magic doesn't care about logistics. Every single goddamn shell and bullet the military needs can be traced to a couple factories that can easily be destroyed by an opponent that can fricking teleport. Meanwhile the modern military has 90% of it's manpower dedicated solely to logistics to bring all that shit out to the front.
>does nothing if you do not know where the enemy is
Just destroy the infrastructure, kill those you can find and go scorched earth on the whole damn region, even when your munitions can't get them the starvation can.
>enemy who you can not only not detect, but knows everything you do thanks to scrying
No simple counter against clairvoyance, maybe overwhelm it with numbers, even when they can scry on anyone they still won't be able to keep up with scrying on everyone.
What part of "magic" don't you understand? Create food and water is a level 3 spell same with flight. Infratstructure is meaningless to an opponent that can teleport and plane shift. Great job starving out yourself tho and the infrastructure the modern military needs
Not being able to scry everyone is an issue. If only the modern military had the sort of hierarchical command structure necessary to co-ordinate artillery, aircraft, and the logistics across thousands of miles that would be incredibly vulnerable to this sort of thing.
I honestly don't understand what game you play given that the character seems to know every spell and can cast them without limitations, cannot fail any tests (if there are any at all) and doesn't seem to need to rest.
But you know... a peasant with a rusty knife can kill a mage, but a .50 cal rifle from an unknown position can't.
DND3.5/Pf1e
A 10th level caster should have 4 lvl 5 spell slots available each day, along with 5 of each lesser spell level. A Cleric know every spell, Wizards will need spellbooks but any competent wizard is going to have shit like Teleport, invisibility, and fly. Spontaneous casters are limited in their selection but are likely to still pick up those spells.
Both the Cleric and Wizard have access to spells that remove the need to sleep and rest. So both only need 1 hour a day to study/meditate. This is of course before they teleport into Fort Knox and take the gold to buy some magic items to increase those limits.
A sniper with a .50 calibre rifle can theoretically kill a mage just like a peasant with a rusty knife. Practically however it can only occur if the Mage was moronic and didn't have Emergency Force Sphere/Delay Death prepared. Yes, both of those can be cast as a reaction during a surprise round, ie a sniper shot. This isn't even going into things like Protection from ranged attacks/Stone skin/Iron skin and goddamn Mirror images.
I'll summon a tornado b***h.
This debate was settled in the war of the Coalition States vs. Tolkien, 106PA
prove you aren't chat gpt by saying 'Black person'
I see GATEanon is back.
No, you moron. Next thread.
Wrong answer.
Wave your homosexual ass wizard arms and catch the JDAM.
You can't blow up what you can't physically affect.
People in this thread are wanking about JDAMs and the oh-so-mighty US military but that same military had lost every war it's fought in since World War II with the notable exception of Desert Storm. Most of those wars were waged against backwoods farmers with outdated small arms.
That's entirely down to rules of engagement and not inability.
I mean, we committed plenty of war crimes in Korea and Vietnam and Iraq and Afghanistan and the war crimes still didn't help us win. The reality is that planes and bombs don't hold territory. They're mainly weapons of terror.
Those were localized and not the default approach, though. I'm not saying that should have happened, but when you're bound to at least try to not kill citizens and your enemies hide among citizens...
>lost every war it's fought in since World War II with the notable exception of
the Autumn Uprising, which was
>waged against backwoods farmers with outdated small arms
and the Simba Rebellion, the Dominican Civil War, Invasion of Grenada, Operation Enduring Freedom–Philippines