Did a different company design the bosses for this game? They don't have the iconic flow state that from software is known for. Numerous combos trigger faster than the roll's recovery frames (Misbegotten claw swipe and Margit's golden sword come to mind, among others). Everything has an answer for everything, nobody goes without gap closers, manic combos, feints on top of feints, pivot tracking,camera-breaking movement, and AOEs. Traditionally they have always exaggerated key movements to add readability, but in this game everything is an erratic, fidgety mocapped mess. It doesn't even look like it's produced by the same studio.
It's like they churned out a bunch of animations independent of the combat system and then expected the player to brute force it with magic and summons. This is a huge step down from DS3 and Sekiro. How the frick did this happen?
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you're supposed to trial and error to find your attack. Opportunities within combos. It's why you have a moveset that's more than just R1, try mixing in jump attacks, or charged heavies when time allows, and quick light attacks when you know you can get away with it.
Avoiding attacks take direction now too. Sometimes you need to dodge to the side, away, or even jump.
Once you start thinking like this, it'll all just click. That's what happened to me. I didn't really like the game as much as the others at first, then I started playing with the game instead of against it.
It's like learning Dark Souls in the first place. Just takes a mindset shift
>Once you give up on the idea that you can succeed by being skilled at the game's combat and surrender to the inevitability of trial and error garbage it all just clicks
>once you stop playing the game the way you want it to be, and start playing it the way it's supposed to be, it becomes fun.
It's not all trial and error, of course. it's just that sometimes you've got to experiment to find what you can get away with. Every game has that if you drill down hard enough.
Shut the frick up, moron. It's only trial and error if you're bad at the game and don't understand how the combat works in order to play and build a good character.
Any game that presents any kind of a challenge will always have different degrees of trial and error for the first-time player going through it. Admittedly though, in ER, the trial and error is higher than in (say) Dark Souls 1, but that's because the pace of the game is faster, the combos are longer and the mixups are more complicated (deliberately so, since the game's delayed strings are specifically designed to punish players for playing too reactively).
The game is begging you to do jumping attacks. To break posture. To use overpowered items. But this moron still cant get good. Maybe youre just shit.
this post seems sensible, but I need to know if you played and liked sekiro.
because the same thing applies there but it works so much better for me.
ER seems way worse in everything that makes a good bossfight like having telegraphs and animations that can be read and reacted to correctly, once you consider all of your options and you can engage in the flow of the fight as OP put it.
ER in my experience doesnt really do this the same way. maybe once you know how the internal boss AI works you can learn to play around and exploit it, including knowing when bosses will cheaply read your input (which is shit design as is for a series with that kind of heritage).
but that all in all is still what I would consider bad game design
>you're supposed to trial and error to find your attack
Cringe design priorities
>Trial and error
This is literally the worst way to design a game and the worst way to defend one. In very few instances with some games, an unseen or confusing attack or obstacle might be learned as a gimmick if it isn't too punishing and should become at least somewhat obvious once witnessed, but it shouldn't be the focus at all or a repeat instance. Trial and error is always criticized as a flawed approach to design, why is it suddenly a valid defense for Elden Ring? Because bosses look cool?
Stuff like "git gud" used to be said as a joke for Souls games, but now newcomers and secondaries are treating it like it's a valid response for this game in particular. They can't even praise ER without trying to dunk on other games they haven't played while spouting a bunch of buzzwords. It's like they're trying to gain clout on Ganker of all places.
I sort of disagree. Trial and error works where the game is consistent and teaching you. It works in DS1 because the game is literally just about learning. What you learn in one encounter you can apply to the next.
The problem with ERs trial and error is that it's not intuitive, and it's not intuitive by design. The game wants to subvert you mechanically at every turn so that gays like that one anon can say "OMG this is so hard wow epic". Hence enemies holding sticks over their head for 20 minutes before 1 frame of attack.
A fair point, especially about the consistency. That's what I mean about being able to discern the approach in a reasonable amount of time. I'm not sure if I'd call the DaS1 approach a full iteration of that though. Learning what you have in one encounter and applying it to the next is the core of game design. ER just likes to constantly subvert you, like you mentioned, so most fights become a renewed trial and error where your previous knowledge doesn't pay off. I think that's the difference, learning over the course of a game and throwing all previous info out to learn nonsense for one encounter.
I find this is especially annoying with large bosses where they suddenly pull rapid swipes out of their ass. Imagine Ornstein doing a 10 move spear combo in his megazord form or Artorias following his triple flips with 5 more series of flips, only to have a second phase with more flips and time wasting. I don't know where From started going wrong where every "skilled" opponent has to be hyper fast and dance all over the place with their massive weapons when you already have fine examples of how it should be done in the past.
>ER just likes to constantly subvert you, like you mentioned, so most fights become a renewed trial and error where your previous knowledge doesn't pay off.
idk what fricking game you played but i breezed through ER bosses precisely cus of my previous knowledge from earlier games and very quickly learning that spacing and jumping are incredibly effective from some of the earliest boss encounters
it kinda sounds more like you refused to adapt or play this one in any different way than previous souls games and feel the game did something wrong for not accommodating for your rigid playstyle
why do you ERgays hyperproject your own insecurities at the mention of any criticism?
cus its very difficult to wrap my head around criticism that its just complete vague goobledyasiatic that sounds like an issue on the players end
there is no "consistent trial and error" to DaS or w/e the frick that argument is, you just need to learn to push the roll button and not get yourself ganked, the difficulty largely came from the game explaining none of its mechanic and rather giving the initiative to the player to discover things instead, the gameplay is very simple and fairly shallow, not to say that makes it bad
there is no "subversion" to the fights in ER, it simply has boss fights designed with the players in mind who are comfortable with the mechanics of From games and then gazillion tools to adjust the difficulty to wherever you like it¨
>Very funny you immediately assume I struggled throughout the game
but i didnt lmao
talking about projection, i said it sounded like you refused to adapt despite the mechanics having features that were not present in the previous games
>No caps
>No grammar
>No subtlety
Sure, I'll give a (you).
How's that dopamine?
my bad i thought you were something about content of the post, i dont really care about discussing w/e aesthetic issues you have with the presentation of the message
>It's like they churned out a bunch of animations independent of the combat system
It's been proven that the animations they didn't reuse from DeS and DaS, they instead grabbed from unfinished Sekiro content. So yeah, they just used whatever trash they had around the office and Fromgays ate it up.
(you)
Very funny you immediately assume I struggled throughout the game. I found the difficulty decent and ended the playthrough with the normal GSS. Not particularly hard, not particularly easy.
You use the same defense every other diehard fanboy uses, is it 2009 again? Did you know you can find a game okay yet still have complaints and find flaws in design? Nah, must be because someone was "filtered," right?
You must be 18+ to post here
>They don't have the iconic flow state that FromSoft is known for
I don't know what you're talking about, Elden Ring's combat is the best execution of this system that FromSoft has ever managed. It demands more knowledge and execution from the player on average, but the "flow state" you describe is the most satisfying in any game except perhaps Bloodborne or Sekiro, but that's really a matter of personal preference.
I'm in the middle of like 3 different DS1 playthroughs at the moment and the boss design is night and day. The bosses barely fight back, and you just play passively while you wait for easily identifiable cues to tell you when they're about to do a vulnerable attack. The only thing that's better about the flow of DS1's combat is how healing works.
>Opportunities within combos
This is a significant aspect of the enemy and boss design that I think people tend to miss. When I watch people play the game for the first or second time, they demonstrate a clear lack of understanding about the importance of pressure in Elden Ring. Most bosses' animations can be exploited to "sneak in" additional attacks. Whether you're rolling, blocking, running, circle-strafing, jumping, or low-profiling attacks, there are a lot of opportunities to keep up the pressure and get that much closer to a posture break for big damage.
it's you again, the elden ring webm poster
once again, i will offer you 50 bucks if you can stream/record yourself starting the game and beat margit and maybe one or two other bosses without overleveling, only on the merits of skill based gameplay.
you know damn well all these webms are a result of luck and trial and error/trying to exploit the AI. this shit is in no way reliably replicateable, whereas it is in sekiro or any other souls game, except maybe 3
I know who you're talking about. I'm not that guy, I recorded this before he recorded his 25 WebMs or Margit or whatever, but I'll take 50 bucks, sure
Tell me the levels you want me to do
>Margit
>Godrick
And I'll do them. As for restrictions on the build, let's say only stuff in Limgrave. I'll attach an email where you can ask me for my paypal / venmo to the next post if you agree.
good question, i think godrick is actually one of the more reliable bosses in terms of behaviour, same goes for the mounted knight near the start of limgrave, ill have to think of one or two others in early-ish game, maybe you have a suggestion.
i only really wanted to btfo that one gay because i know from the way he posts he couldnt do it and i just wanted to see him duck out.
ill give you 20 though maybe more if you can do it, explanation/narration optional but it would be neat if I could learn how the fricked up bosses in this game actually work
for 20 i'll do margit considering we're talking about going from 50 for 2 bosses, but i can explain how he works if necessary
>once again, i will offer you 50 bucks if you can stream/record yourself starting the game and beat margit and maybe one or two other bosses without overleveling, only on the merits of skill based gameplay.
>but the "flow state" you describe is the most satisfying in any game except perhaps Bloodborne or Sekiro
Sekiro combat flow is way worse for design decision as flawed as those in the original Dark Souls or its trilogy. The posture system destroyed the advantage and viability of most of its attacks and purely offensive tools, since keeping aggression with quick free post deflection R1 Is king and the best and only way to offend reliably and for cheap. There's a lot of issues with Sekiro combat design
Bloodborne is at its best with limb break shenanigans which is really fun, but mechanicaly speaking, stagger based on body part hp rather than keeping pressure doesn't really fit Souls games weapon balance and combat flow
>The problem with ERs trial and error is that it's not intuitive, and it's not intuitive by design. The game wants to subvert you mechanically at every turn so that gays like that one anon can say "OMG this is so hard wow epic".
No, it was designed to push towards more varied playstyles. A perfectly telegraphed animation can also hint at other ways to avoid it, like running, which simplifies and rekoves the need for perfect timing of a dodge
No, you aren't supposed to just guess until you win, that's stupid. In past games have had plenty more than just R1 as well. Everything you mentioned aside from more viable jump attacks have already been tried and true, and done better in BB and Sekiro. ER just bit the wrong end of the bagel this time. Not every game they make can be good, t. KF veteran. The reason ERgays are so insufferable to other Fromfans is because "game I like can't have flaws."
>Thread calls him gay
>Mass replies
>N-no you're the one sperging out!!!
A classic
i dont follow
you are saying you dont care about er
you are very invested in this argument about the game despite that
replying to my posts saying absolutely nothing
getting upset because i asked to clarify what was it that you were actually trying to say
The issue is this is very unintuitive and not worth the effort. I'd accept it if bosses didn't deal so much damage but in this game if you frick up you're usually dead literally disincentivising experimentation and looking for openings. Malenia's waterfowl and clone attacks aren't just bad because they're completely unintuitive more than because they straight up end your attempt if you frick up once.
And attacking bosses during delayed attacks is legit but yet again very unintuitive, it's just not worth it doing all these unnatural tactics and it breaks the flow state because you're treating the fight as a set of inputs and instructions and metagaming hard with tactics ripped from a guide. It's not loose and free flowing like in previous games
>I'd accept it if bosses didn't deal so much damage but in this game
The game lets you level up to gain more hp or put on armor and shields that negate some damage
You need to be near softcap to have hp worth a damn
So are you claiming every single boss in this game does too much damage unless you hit a HP softcap?
I believe there are also damage negation buffs on top of armors/shields/HP stat to make the boss damage more manageable, not to mention healing items and spells
Let me guess, you think you should play the game with 2 buttons: light attack and roll, right? There's a lot more to the combat system than that, try using some of it.
You could beat every boss in DS3 by spamming rolls as soon as the boss made any sort of attack animation and you would be 100% safe since nothing roll catched. From noticed this or people complained about it saying it was too easy. So they made bosses actually roll catch you. Those complaining are all morons who unironically think DS3 has the best bosses in the series (they're wrong). Of course it's a step down from Sekiro since Sekiro is a real action game and will forever have better combat and bosses that Soulshit.
>Sekiro is a real action game
>the combat consists of the player quite literally mashing R1 on your enemies until you hear a *ching* sound queue, after which you will have to tap L1 before their weapon touches you.
>Or press A or B respectively, depending on what simon says
Sekiro is mogged by every major action game franchise and is arguably less complex than Dark Souls.
sekiro is mogged because it's produced by Activision in the United States, which means it's fricking gay
they chose activision to publish literally because of tenchu
>why did they make my game harder
>no you can't use summons, thats CHEATING
I happily use summons for the shitty gank bosses they stuffed in, and I actually enjoy the mechanic. My problem with summons is that they tend to make solo bosses far, FAR too easy. Having an ally that is constantly trying to take aggro off of you is a hilariously broken advantage. I feel like summons are supposed to be a little boost to someone who is struggling, not an instant win button.
Miyazaki said in an interview that Ash Summons and Crafted Items are for players who want to overcome challenges through strategy rather than raw skill.
It's stuff like using a summon with high poise damage on a boss like Malenia with low poise. Or sleep pots on Godskin Duo.
It's a way to win that requires understanding the fight and choosing the right gear instead of just gitting gud.
Say what you will on whether it does it well, but the series had always had that kind of mechanic. just that usually it's a lot more situational, like using a Divine weapon for the skeletons in the Nito fight, or even getting that amulet thing before Manus to repel his dark attacks.
>muh flow
ie you're bad and got filtered
Really sad how even after 1 year people think elden ring is about spamming rolls.
>Really sad how even after 1 year people think elden ring is about spamming rolls
I beat it by spamming rolls and whacking bosses with a big floppy chunk of a magma dragon's tail. Rolls are about 75% of the whole experience IMO.
>Numerous combos trigger faster than the roll's recovery frames
This has been a thing in every souls game, it's just more prevalent here. The reason they give bosses attack-chains like that is to force you to pay attention to the direction you roll in.
In other words, try using your roll to reposition yourself behind your opponent, now you'll automatically avoid the 2nd hit without even having to roll twice.
>manic combos
>feints
In a game where the player has access to a brainless and overpowered i-frame button and insanely high damage button mashing, this is how you make a game difficult. If you don't like that, you don't like souls.
For me personally I'm growing to dislike it
git gud
>No story
>Barren open world
>No challenge
>Dualwielding makes the game even more trivial
>Input reading
>Magic is overpowered
>No mimics
>Just summon ashes to win, bro!
>Bosses are easier to stagger now, meaning the game is even more casual friendly
>Most weapon abilities trivialize the game
>Like 75% of the game is optional
>No solo invasions
>No covenants, meaning that PvP has no point
>4 endings are the same (kek)
>Teleports (WHAT THE FRICK WERE THEY THINKING?????)
>Intro is a powerpoint slideshow
>"Altering costumes" system is the dumbest idea ever
>Fast travel
>Crafting is the most useless mechanic of all time
>They changed Malenia's white VA to some Black person for woke points (OH NO NO)
>All big bosses are garbage
>Cuck shit
>Feminist shit
>Simp shit
>Furry shit
>troony shit
>Gay shit
>Pedophile shit
>You have to simp for a woman in order to access some of the game's content (lmao)
>Paid DLC
>Final boss is a troony and a giant fish instead of kino old man battle like in literally all previous games
>Skyrim dungeons (that have no rewards)
>Boss reuse
>Asset reuse
>Worst camera ever
Is Elden Ring the worst game of all time?
when are you going to cut your penis off, troon?
>calling anyone troon while defending the body type A/B fromslop game
LMAO
only troons care about body types
I bet you got mad at the mirror
>No story
Yes story
>Barren open world
It's packed with enemies and loot
>No challenge
One of the hardest games of all time
>Dualwielding makes the game even more trivial
Don't dual wield then
>Input reading
lmao so that's why you dual wield, pussy
>Magic is overpowered
Every game has easy mode
>No mimics
Who cares?
>Just summon ashes to win, bro!
You can win without ashes, and you can't win with ashes alone
>Bosses are easier to stagger now, meaning the game is even more casual friendly
Casuals were quitting at Margit left and right
>Most weapon abilities trivialize the game
Name 50
>75% of the game is optional
And?
>No solo invasions
Who cares?
>No covenants
This is not a PvP game
>4 endings are the same
If you're a lorelet
>Teleports
What's the problem?
>Intro is a powerpoint slideshow
And it's KINO
>"Altering costumes" system is the dumbest idea ever
It reduces weight and changes appearance
>Fast travel
No one wants to waste hours of their life walking
>Crafting is the most useless mechanic of all time
Because you're terrible at the game and don't know how to use it
>They changed Malenia's white VA to some Black person
That only makes it more satisfying to kill her
>All big bosses are garbage
Rykard, Astel and Fire Giant are literally the best bosses in the game
>Cuck shit
>Feminist shit
>Simp shit
>Furry shit
>troony shit
>Gay shit
>Pedophile shit
Nice buzzwords
>You have to simp for a woman
That's not a woman, Anon
>Paid DLC
Worth it
>Final boss is a troony and a giant fish instead of kino old man battle like in literally all previous games
Same old shit or different, you would've complained anyways
>Skyrim dungeons (that have no rewards)
All dungeon bosses drop a reward
>Boss reuse
Name 10 open world games that don't do this
>Asset reuse
Literally no game in history has 0 reused assets
>Worst camera ever
Not even close
>Is Elden Ring the worst game of all time?
It's the fifth best game of all time after BOTW, RDR2, Witcher 3 and Divinity: Original Sin 2
>It's the fifth best game of all time after BOTW, RDR2, Witcher 3 and Divinity: Original Sin 2
Toy must be no older than 15. RDR2 and BOTW greatest games fricking LMAO.
>That game list
>That structure
God damn straight outta twitter. I know you guys are used to vomiting words without thinking, but have SOME self-awareness.
see:
>ER thread
>I don't even care about ER
so was there a point you were trying to make?
or you just open random threads, hit reply on random posts and sperg out about something unrelated?
>bunch of stuff dark souls 1 did worse than ER
>my acquired "rightist" mental illness.webm
miyazaki did it himself
>Be me
>play elden ring
>Play cool arcane build
>get a bit bored and decide to NG+ as a caster
>I have never been a dedicated caster before aside from equipping a few pyromancies in DaS, or doing a dark paladin build in DaS II and III where I used a few hexes/dark spells but mostly depended on melee
It is only now in Elden Ring that I'm realizing that the souls spell scroll system is completely fricking moronic and I hate it. You have so many equip options but focusing on scrolling through them wastes time and is distracting, meaning less is more only as a result of how shit it is.
Code Vein's key binding system is so fricking good I have no idea why from sticks to the scrolling system. It's like their idea of spell use is more about using one fricking attack most of the time.
I only use spells to strengthen myself.
did you know that you can hold down the up-dpad button to pop back to the first entry?
At that point, every time I need to switch spells, I just tap the button a set amount of times, and when I'm done, I make sure I switch back to my main spell.
How many spells do you even need?
my current load-out is Comet, Dart, Slicer, Moonblade, Greatbow, Big Phalanx, Ambush, and Terra
I don't even use them all most of the time. I might just drop Terra, Ambush, Phalanx, Slicer and Dart. But scrolling through them has never been an issue for me.
Then again, I play on Keyboard and Mouse, so it's easier to just tap one of my side mouse buttons and not lose the ability to move like on controller.
keyboard mouse + controller is a good combo
what do you mean by that? left hand on keyboard, right hand holds the controller?
yeah
how do you use the right hand weapon then?
with the controller. when you couple them you only use the keyboard when you need it. I use the controller for mostly everything
>Did you know you can pop back to zero
I know that and that was a step in the right direction but it's still shit.
You have 9 spell slots in elden ring, you have the ability to use all of them. Yet to use spell number nine you have to hit the button eight times.
This ensures that whatever situation you needed that spell for will long pass by the time you have it equipped.
Obviously, you can take advantage of smart ordering, like putting buffs at the bottom and placings things in a way that works. (I.E long range followed by close range, followed by long range, etc) but ultimately the system is just fricking dogshit
>Why do you need so many spells?
int/fai build. But it doesn't matter, I have the slots therefore I should have the ability. Doesn't excuse the horrible system. I should be able to equip things to a key-bind.
Okay, what do you propose for controller users then? How could they alter the system to fit that standard?
I fully agree that on Keyboard, we should be able to apply better hotkeys, but I'd wager that the vast majority of Elden Ring players are on controller, and any solution that doesn't suit them is mostly useless.
In code vein you held a trigger that hot keyed abilities abxy or the D pad. This was insanely useful because you could easily go into any given ability.
From Software did that with the Y key in ED but only maped it to the D pad and only allowed you to attach use items to those slots instead of spells which was incredibly disappointing.
so instead of having it be items in the Y-menu, it should be spells?
Every character has to use items, but it's exceedingly rare that a character needs that many spells to need a quick select menu for it.
They should let you equip spells available in your spell slots to those keybinds.
Something in the code they keep recycling must prevent that, likely related to how catalysts work since glitches like how a spell deals damage depending on whether it's left hand or right hand seem to be common place every game.
There's got to be some way to deal with it though, if they figured out how to get use items to function on a different key bind system for use items, they could probably do it with spells as well.
>what do you propose for controller users then? How could they alter the system to fit that standard?
From should just learn that modifier buttons you hold are a thing.
Spells should be treated like hotkeys when you hold your catalyst attack's button down
Ur meant to be using barricade shield or bloodhound step against bosses.
that's so cheap
Most boss fights in this game are just miserable if you try to fight them fairly.
Exceptions exist such as godfrey, crucible knights and morgotts first form and probably more.
I suggest only using Blood Tax and Prayful Strike to heal instead of flasks or miracles, if ur using strong/cheap weapon arts.
use great stars with hoar frost stomp
Git gud or stick with Dork Souls.
I really didnt mind since the moment you can access magic every souls game becomes a cakewalk and this is no different. Add in infinite stagger on jump attacks and Ashes to exploit the same basic AI they've used the last decade that can only deal with one target and has to swap the moment another does more damage.
I could also deal with the reuse of bosses, but ER commits the biggest sin for me: The game isn't fun to move around in. They've got ten square miles of empty fields and swamps and you're just expected to trudge through on horseback then instantly teleport around. Hell, some areas can only be accesses with teleport, disconnecting the world. Compare this to the fantastic circular design from Firelike to Parish to Depths to Blighttown and up again, all with little sidepaths, winding stairways making you go up, down, over and under. ER has the same village buildings everywhere and nothing seems to have much thought where it is placed in relation to something else, like take Witcher 3's painfully realistic approach to Polish countryside with where forests, cornfields and rivers are placed. ER really ended up being Dark Souls with a kilometer distance between everything interesting and all the good things it had just dwindles inbetween From's pursuit to be just another AAA game with inconsequential tedium.
there is a reason they called it elden ring instead of dark souls 4
>They don't have the iconic flow state that from software is known for.
What "iconic flow state"?
the predictable pattern of
>boss attacks
>you attack
>boss attacks
>you attack
It gets old pretty quick, that's why the best fights change up that flow in unique ways. Every boss in Elden Ring does that. To varying degrees of success, mind you. but you're never just going through the motions. All bosses feel like an actual ebb and flow struggle against a thing that wants you dead.
>the predictable pattern of
>boss attacks
>you attack
>boss attacks
>you attack
Oh.
So basically what action games have been doing for bosses since time immemorial?
Very "iconic" indeed! God bless From Software for inventing this! Did I say "God"? Wait, I'm sorry! I mean Miyazaki bless!
>didn't finish reading my post to recognize my sarcasm.
it's alright, happens to the gaygiest of us.
Yup. You're right.
14 second combos are bad design no matter what game you're talking about.
in street fighter combos were an accident
It's just modern souls design. People let them get away with in 3 so now it's going to be in everything.
Basically Miyazaki loves Bloodborne combat and wants all his games to be high intensity, which works with Bloodborne thematically and also mechanically, because you have different movement, different parries and a rally system.
In souls you have a giant goober with a sword doing stupid flips while you DDR rythm game dodge and then poke in his down time windows. By trying to make the boss combat more intense and interesting they actually made it very mundane.
>In souls you have a giant goober with a sword doing stupid flips while you DDR rythm game dodge and then poke in his down time windows. By trying to make the boss combat more intense and interesting they actually made it very mundane.
Even 2D beat-em-ups from the 1990s still provide players with more options in how to deal with bosses. You can just deal with them in the way you described (hitting them during their down time windows). Or you can throw other enemies at them. Or you can throw THEM at other enemies. Or use environmental objects to damage them, like hitting them with barrels you find scattered throughout the arena. Later beat-em-ups allowed you to juggle bosses. You just have way more means of controlling bosses in non-From games.
Meanwhile, in Elden Ring or other Souls games? You can't even parry or backstab most of the bosses. Your options are limited to just (as you say) poking them in their downtime windows. Hell, some bosses are completely immune to status effects, which invalidates specific builds and playstyles. It's a very "Simon Says" approach to enemy design.
It's about context and feel. It works in DeS and DS1 because you're supposed to feel like a person trying to take down these giant, powerful entities. Fancy combat isn't the point.
In BB and especially Sekiro you're given more of a character action skillset and the bosses are designed around it, which is why it works there.
The problem is a square peg round hole situation. We have the souls core, which is rigid movement and attacks trying to accomodate speedy, stylish boss fights. It just doesn't work. They either need to go back to old philosophy and focus on feel rather than difficulty or actually overhaul their core mechanics.
This problem is highlighted most in what they've done to try and increase difficulty, like having big delay windows to bait dodges or attacks that the boss can throw during vulnerability windows.
I can agree with that. I'm more tolerant of this stiff approach when the boss and player are both similar in speed and capability, with the boss having no more than like 7-8 simple and easy to read moves with zero ambiguity (like Allant or whatever) while also only having one phase and a reasonable amount of health.
> like having big delay windows to bait dodges or attacks that the boss can throw during vulnerability windows.
For a franchise that seems to care so much about player immersion, it's so strange that they are leaning harder and harder towards this sort of design. Whenever I see shit like this, it feels like the combat designer is intruding into the game. I feel less like I'm fighting a big scary monster and more like I'm playing mindgames with a developer. This shit breaks immersion hard.
Unfortunately the reddit meme is that souls is...LE HARD which is enough for normie engagement, when what really makes Dark Souls special is that it isn't afraid to put obstacles in your way and make your journey feel significant while also maintaining a great atmosphere and aesthetic.
I didn't present those as examples of speed or style but rather examples of how the current core won't accomodate speedy and stylish fights. It doesn't matter how much a boss spergs out if the gameplay is just reading his moves and dodge timing. You can give him as much of that as you want and it won't make the combat any different. In a proper character action game, or even BB, that would provide more of a challenge but in Souls combat it doesn't change anything. The only way to increase Souls combat difficulty is to learn players.
>people know to dodge when an enemy winds up an attack so we'll make him hold it longer
>people know to attack after an enemy has whiffed so we'll give him extra attacks he can throw out to surprise them
>The only way to increase Souls combat difficulty is to learn players.
know to dodge when an enemy winds up an attack so we'll make him hold it longer
know to attack after an enemy has whiffed so we'll give him extra attacks he can throw out to surprise them
This has been true since the first Souls game. In fact, the parry system was based around delayed attacks baiting it and making it a prediction/attack timing mastery.
Elden Ring increased difficulty by forcing proper positioning and movement
I'm not saying it's new, positioning and movement have always been a large factor in souls combat, I'm saying it shows that the move towards flashy character action is incompatible with souls core mechanics.
>I'm saying it shows that the move towards flashy character action is incompatible with souls core mechanics.
Your kneejerk reaction by armchair game designer is just another dunning-kruger opinion. In fact, Elden Ring is that one superior Fromsoftware action game giving actual combat options compared to the more barebones Bloodborne flavours of dodge-attacks/parry and Sekiro flavour of counters
Elden Ring being the only of the three to consistently force positioning makes it already the superior action game, that's why shitters like OP are upset they can't counter any attack with rhythm typing of the O button
If you think that the combat in ER bennefits from the outdated core of Souls games, or that the rigid Souls core bennefits from spergy bosses you're just moronic and shouldn't share your opinion.
>Because the ability to duck under sweeping attacks and run out of delayed ones already makes the most basic build full of options and with a better combat flow
And it doesn't make it any less rigid.
>If you think that the combat in ER bennefits from the outdated core of Souls games, or that the rigid Souls core bennefits from spergy bosses you're just moronic and shouldn't share your opinion.
You keep talking in buzzwords and have no real argument. There's nothing spergy about bosses and nothing outdated about Elden Ring, wheter you are dodging with care of where you are in your recovery frames, blocking and countering, parrying, using attack momentum and armor, dodge-attacking or whatever, you are more than given the options to tackle bosses
>And it doesn't make it any less rigid.
It does, the definition of rigid is something not flexible, which you just proved wrong. In a webm about a badiv b***h no spell, no armor, no block, no parry light sword build there's already multiple ways into attack avoidance.
Meanwhile you are propping up dodge-r1borne and even worse L1kiro, a game notorious because you arracks don't even matter in NG+ Demon bell bevause over 70% which you'll rarely get to unless you suck bosses hp don't after posture and deathblow, making your attacks, especially emblems based, worthless
Yes, rigid, as in your character movement feels stiff. I don't get what your major malfunction is here.
>There's nothing spergy about bosses
They literally sperg out, do giant pointless flurishes where they do a heap of pointless swipes and swoop around the arena only to look fancy and provide no extra challenge.
>you are more than given the options to tackle bosses
Your options are avoid attack chain and poke, it doesn't matter how many different ways you can do it it's still the same. You don't combo, you don't chain, you don't use a window to get off some bigger damage ability, you avoid damage and poke.
>It does, the definition of rigid is something not flexible
See above, I'm talking about character movement and attacks, you just misunderstood.
>Yes, rigid, as in your character movement feels stiff
There's nothing stiff about character movement. They can pivot 360 degrees instantly regardless of animation, they are the opposite of stiff
>They literally sperg out, do giant pointless flurishes where they do a heap of pointless swipes and swoop around the arena only to look fancy and provide no extra challenge.
Clearly they provide challenge to you
>Your options are avoid attack chain and poke, it doesn't matter how many different ways you can do it it's still the same.
Wrong
>You don't combo, you don't chain, you don't use a window to get off some bigger damage ability, you avoid damage and poke.
Fricking laughable, as if you didn't already make it vlear for everybody that you are clueless as frick
>I'm talking about character movement and attacks
There's nothing stiff about attacks either
>Sorry but a guy who just eternally flips around to endlessly chain combos then flip around is not fun
That's a (You) problem
Pivoting has nothing to do with stiffness, I don't think ER is hard and the fact that that's all you can throw out shows that I'm right and that you're just jerking it off because you think it's hard and that makes you a special little guy when I'm talking about it not being fun, you say that there's nothing stiff about attacks while posting a webm showing stiff attacks.
>Pivoting has nothing to do with stiffness
Yes it does, there's nothing stiff about movement and attacking because you are always in perfect control,
>I don't think ER is hard and the fact that that's all you can throw out
bla bla vla
>le "it's not fun"
shitty cope for shitters, you talk about muh gazillion boss combos while people post webm of BTFO and going toe to toe with bosses, you talk about stiff movement while people post webm of 360 free running and rolling out of undodgeable attacks. You are sad you have to actually master mechanics and you aren't given free cheap crutches, that's all there is to it
>he STILL doesn't know what he meant by stiff
stop samegayging
non arguments for morons that can't adapt. If you really are this unwilling to master any mechanic that isn't dodge/timed block and light attack just summon
>There's nothing stiff about character movement. They can pivot 360 degrees instantly regardless of animation, they are the opposite of stiff
he STILL doesn't know what he meant by stiff
jesus christ anon, ERgays really are brain damaged
>Sorry but a guy who just eternally flips around to endlessly chain combos then flip around is not fun
>That's a (You) problem
I bet you just cum in your panties every time you're in line at the store or riding a plane, huh?
Since it's an open world sandbox game, bosses are more difficult to design because now the developers have to account for more possibilities the players might have by this point. Past games were also open world, but there weren't as many variables. While I can't fully blame Fromsoft for struggling with boss design, I can absolutely blame them for taking the large scope of a sandbox when they haven't released a fully finished game in decades.
Anons, ironic shitposting is still shitposting. Put more efforts into your low quality baits for crying out loud.
>no arguments
some high quality textwalls of ""criticism"" when you fold after some stating the game simply plays different
>no arguments
I don't even care about ER moron, I just said to try harder. Who are you even replying to?
>Kneejerk
You can't have a kneejerk reaction through text.
Just saying
Why do I keep seeing "kneejerk reactions" being mentioned? It isn't possible to have a kneejerk reaction through posts that's longer than maybe one or two words since, by action, you have to think about what you're typing. it isn't a natural response like speaking.
Anyway, I don't know why the first defense this playerbase mentions every time are skill issues rather than actual arguments. It's always a weird jump to make and doesn't make you sound more competent or attack the other argument. As for me, I prefer the methodical approach rather than waiting. It's not very fun to watch a boss do a bunch of dazzling tricks I can easily avoid. I'd rather they have a serious of key attacks and mix-ups with subtle tells. Looking fancy is fun for a couple, but it's just dull and makes me roll my eyes when it's so common. It's the reason why bosses like O&S and Kalameet are more memorable. Not that they aren't without their own little issues.
>content of the post
I'll help you out here since it looks like you're having a hard time. Someone who actually cares about what they're saying at least makes the attempt to present it adequately. It's okay to make mistakes or have poor points, but if it looks like you aren't even trying to sound competent, no one will take you seriously because you don't deserve to be taken seriously and you aren't taking yourself seriously. It just becomes obvious you're either underage or shitposting.
Assuming all the lowercase posts are you, you're doing the equivalent of screaming for attention, even if that's not what you meant to do. Not trying to rile you up, just stating an observation. You'd have better luck with that on /b/.
>As for me, I prefer the methodical approach rather than waiting.
thats kinda the idea with ER, you dont have to if you precisely prefer more aggressive approach, you can play very passively save for couple bosses that have more of a dps-race type mechanics if you like it, or more aggressively or mix of anything between
>Someone who actually cares about what they're saying at least makes the attempt to present it adequately.
yea you literally replied to a post that said i do not care if you dont like it as in, i indeed, do not care if its an issue to someone, i thought i made that clear
Just don't play the game?
Seriously, I know they're all by the same company, but different tastes for everyone and Miyazaki always says he likes to experiment because consistency is very hard for him please understand. There's gonna be shit you like and shit you don't like, but don't force yourself to play the shit you don't like.
Did you just admit you're acting like a spoiled brat in a supermarket on purpose?
Damn, 300 IQ move. You sure showed him. I'm ashamed to enjoy the same game as you, assuming you've even played it, fricking moron. Your reddit shit's so incomprehensible I can't even tell. Here's your you, now maybe people won't fall for it anymore.
>inb4 reply
Don't care. Filtered. Dilate.
>Did you just admit you're acting like a spoiled brat in a supermarket on purpose?
idk what you mean by this, for the third time however:
i dont care you or anyone else has issue with how i type on Ganker
its also kinda nice to give people something to latch on to and pretend they are upset about when they start seething about being unable to respond to any of the content of teh post you know, cant go too hard on these morons
>I'm saying it shows that the move towards flashy character action is incompatible with souls core mechanics.
so you are saying bb and sekiro are bad for precisely doing that?
dont really agree
BB and seki have both adapted the core which is what makes them good
Yea I would agree
ER isnt flashy character action game at all though, if anything das3 bosses felt 'faster' to me, in ER you can adjust such that its more like pick your own pace type deal, it was the 'most rpg' in that sense of all the games funnily enough i suppose
>We have the souls core, which is rigid movement and attacks trying to accomodate speedy, stylish boss fights. It just doesn't work.
>delay windows and baiting dodges
you are making no sense, neither of those are speedy or stylish, they are design decisions built precisely for that "rigid" movement
>Meanwhile, in Elden Ring? You can't even parry or backstab most of the bosses.
wrong
>Your options are limited to just (as you say) poking them in their downtime windows
also wrong
>It's about context and feel. It works in DeS and DS1 because you're supposed to feel like a person trying to take down these giant, powerful entities. Fancy combat isn't the point.
It doesn't work at all. In fact the rudimentary stagger system, lack of hyperarmor and bad balance of heavy attacks made Demon's Souls and Dark Souls combat bad, issues that were rectified with ER
>We have the souls core, which is rigid movement and attacks trying to accomodate speedy, stylish boss fights.
There's nothing about ER attacks and movement that is rigid
>It just doesn't work.
skill issue
>This problem is highlighted most in what they've done to try and increase difficulty, like having big delay windows to bait dodges
A staple of the franchise
>when the boss and player are both similar in speed and capability
The speed and capability of Elden ring players is perfect for Elden Ring bosses
in Souls games, especially 1 and 2, the player is too fast and competent
>Demon's Souls and Dark Souls combat bad, issues that were rectified with ER
I've been saying Souls combat is bad, the combat works in service to the feel and point of the game, that's why those games are good. ER doesn't have good combat.
>There's nothing about ER attacks and movement that is rigid
Ummm
>run past hit box
>stuck in r1
>run past hit box
>stuck in r1
>roll past hit box
>stuck in r1
How is that not rigid? Just because you move a more fluidly than DS1 doesn't mean it's not still rigid as frick.
>skill issue
It doesn't work for game feel homosexual, reddit soibois like yourself who think that ER is hard or that hard=good are the reason that Souls games are becoming actual slop.
>A staple of the franchise
And? What a homosexual reply.
>ER doesn't have good combat.
Yes it does
>How is that not rigid?
Because the ability to duck under sweeping attacks and run out of delayed ones already makes the most basic build full of options and with a better combat flow
>They don't have the iconic flow state
>i cant spam roll to win the bosses are bad
they have the iconic git gud
>boss spazes out for 10 seconds
>poke him once
>boss spazes out for 10 seconds
>poke him once
riveting gameplay
>Did a different company design the bosses for this game?
No, but a different company was in charge of copypasting the bosses Fromsoft designed and putting them inside the side dungeons with no rhyme or reason.
elden ring has the best bosses since Dark Souls 2 crown of the old iron king
dark souls 3 was weightless and a misstep in boss/combat design
The eternal filter
>Numerous combos trigger faster than the roll's recovery frames (Misbegotten claw swipe and Margit's golden sword come to mind, among others).
I can't believe Micheal Zaki forced me to use positioning
>all this stupid shit about dodge roll frames
bro just jumping attack power stanced great swords. What the frick are you doing to have this problem?
Bosses suck wiener because of the godawful camera FromSoft still hasn't fixed in 10+ years (apart from Sekiro)
Stop making huge bosses when you can't do them right you fricking asiatics
Can we just admit Elden Ring is a deeply flawed, yet enjoyable game?
Some are inexcusably bad like Morgott. But I just parry him now, same with the Misbegotten, Crucible Knights, Bell Bearing Hunter and such. Others you just need to think about positioning.
>Some are inexcusably bad like Morgott
Morgott is Fromsoftware best boss and also a positioning check throughout most of the fight, especially its double sweep attacks
Sorry but a guy who just eternally flips around to endlessly chain combos then flip around is not fun for what the games limitations are worth.
Now do the thing where you go “filtered, kino, based, based, chad, kino, kino” and a webm after you learned the bosses moves 4-6 hours into the game. It’ll be interesting to see if a comment deviates from that.
it was already over when he replied to valid points with "wrong" and "skill issue"
you just know at that point you're dealing with a zoomer who likes to show off how "good" ER's combat is, when I know for a fact any of these webms he's posting are a result of lucky boss behaviour RNG and a bunch of trial and error and he couldn't consistently do this to any boss except maybe mohg, who is one of the few bosses that behaves like a normal souls boss with little to no random based tacked-on combo extensions, unreactable attacks and player input reading.
i will pay 50 bucks to this webm postinf homosexual if he can stream himself start a new game and do margitt and fight and beat him like he wants us to believe is a thing, with that webm
No joke, stop trying to play ER like a fun Souls game. It has the most unpolished systems and bosses From has ever designed along with the most reused assets. They're still using skeletons and animations from DeS even.
The game will cheat you so your goal is to cheat the game. Experiment and try to make the most busted murder build you possibly can, just shoving out lethal damage so you can rape every boss that comes your way. Don't find that fun? Welcome to ER
Morgott was so forgettable I don't even remember his fight at all, trounced him first time with a normal GSS. Even the funny volcano space worm was more memorable.
They had to deliver a "hard" game for a fanbase of millions who demand difficulty. They had run out of organic ways to create difficulty so this is what they did. I used to begrudge FROM for making watered-down "big" Dark Souls, now I kind of respect it. They made it work.
You're faster and more agile in Elden Ring than any of the other Souls games. Not counting Sekiro.
So why does almost no one playing the game actually play the distance game versus the enemies? Actually staying out of reach, like actually, from attacks. Instead of insisting on i-frame:ing through them.
>Faster than BB
Input reading is so fricking disgusting and boring in this game.
Deleted it and installed SotFS, never played DLCs so I am going to complete them.
You know, I had a lot of complaints about DaS2, but I gained a newfound appreciation for it after ER. Still have the same complaints, but man, going through the DLCs again after ER felt orgasmic.
This. There is literally no valid excuse anyone can use for input reading. It's straight up cheating and I say that as someone who loves games SCIII. Anyone who says it's okay or a skill issue is a homosexual who either lacks decent games in their library or is LARPing way too hard on being a Souls "oldgay."