Did Dutch Van Der Linde even care about money? I feel like his main motivation was just causing chaos to somehow save the Wild West from industralization and law. And "giving to the poor" was just a ploy to gain followers and sympathy for his cause against the rich aka industrialists etc. Thoughts?
He was on an ego-trip
WE SNEED MORE MONEY
He's an angry white man upset that his times is over
he was seeing everything he loved about the world slowly fade away, and he did what he could to prolong his time with the people he loved, even if it hurt them.
things really went to shit when Hosea, who embodied a lot of these things, died
Dutch is your typical sociopathic cult leader. He enjoys the influence he has over others and doesn't actually care about ideas at large. In 2 he is "fighting industrialization" by, eh... robbing common folk and planning to escape the county all together?
In 1 he is again, "fighting industrialization" by appealing to the wronged indians and using them as his army to, eh... kill bank tellers?
He has no goals at large besides being in power and commanding others. He would feel at lace in the military or politics, but because of his simple upbringing and short fuse, he cornered himself into crime.
His "family" is a cult and everyone outside of it is just prey. He doesn't fight for the common folk nor the poor. He hates everyone who doesn't obey him and lick his ass every time he opens his mouth. That's why Micah wraps him around the finger and you get fed to the wolves, despite your past with Dutch. Because he is a sociopath who only loves himself.
Nah, I think you're hating on Dutch a bit too much.
He certainly isn't like the other gangs which he mentions frequently are nameless and who the leader doesn't care about.
Dutch is much more intimate with his people, I mean he carries around people who are effectively useless and contribute little.
He isn't as "sociopathic" as you paint him to be.
Micah is certainly a sociopath.
No, the dude is right on the money. You think cultists aren't intimate with their followers?
>muh intimacy
Sociopaths are well aware and use this tactic all the time when formed cliques or "families". People disenfranchised by their surroundings are easily impressed and infatuated by the simplest of show of care and interest from you part. Charles Manson and the rest were quite sociable with their underlings and constantly wanted to reaffirm, that "I care, when the rest of the world doesn't". Dutch does this too, each time he talks about "We were abandoned by this society and thrown to the gutter, but at least we are here together"
>useless people
Every member of the family has a role and is useful to Dutch. Only exception is that irish woman, who was simply Dutch's temporary love interest and he isn't even that sad when she dies. All other members are shown to have the will and ability to con people, the girls all play pretty ladies that would just stab you mid-coitus and the men are either simple goons or actors. Even Jack could be used in some scams or cons and Dutch is not above using a child as a tool for his cons.
>not like the other gangs
We don't know anything about other gangs. To anyone outside of Dutch's family they appear identical to the O'Driscolls and the like. Real life gangs had women in them too, so the all-male bandit groups we fight through the whole game is ahistorical at best.
>Micah
He is also a sociopath, but of the kind that doesn't wish public acceptance. He enjoys power for what it is and uses people as tools to reach it. He is quite open about it too! Dutch, on the other hand, gets his rocks off by being powerful over people that genuinely like him, even if he arranges all the circumstances so that they have no option but to like him. Not as aggressive and outright soulless like Micah, but that doesn't remove the sociopath brand from Dutch.
People are oft guilty of what they accuse others, of, anon.
Nobody is more paranoid about being lie to than a liar.
Nobody knows how vulnerable their possessions are like a thief.
Keep this in mind when Dutch goes on about how he's 'not like the other gangs', and also keep in mind, actions speak louder than words.
Think of it like a man going on about how much he hates pedos, right up until the FBI finds his hard drive full of CP.
I'm an excellent liar and that's the main reason I'm not paranoid about being lied to
if you are good at lying you're also good at catching other people lying
wasnt one of the early missions, where you waste a gang and basically kidnap that young member basically an illusion to how your gang was literally no different to their gang. you kill them as either revenge or as "justice" and the hidden message is your just as big a hypocrite or something
He definitely cared about Arthur in some regard. Just look at his face when he was completely speechless at Arthur telling him he gave him everything he had.
Dutch had no real power, the people he surrounded himself with were not really that smart and they themselves caused their own desperation that he took advantage of. He had Arthur who was good at what he did and always bailed Dutch out and the group as well. But yeah Dutch was a real piece of shit but the people deserved it for letting things get this far. they gave him the entitlement he abused at the end and they all paid for it.
>Dutch was a real piece of shit
>Did everything in his power to take back John Marstons son and riled up the whole gang to take him back
You homosexuals need to replay the game.
take your own advice moron.
You haven't even played the games, you're moronic and spouting meme shit.
Play the games, homosexual.
moron. He doesn't do this out of lis love of Jack, but because he can't stand being outsmarted by others. It is still an ego thing for him, but he can easily guise it under the veil of saving Jack and reuniting him with his parents. The only thing he was saving back there was his self-image.
And yet at the end he helps kill Micah and doesn't bother with killing John at all.
There is a reason why Arthur and John went out of their way to try and kill Micah and completely ignored Dutch.
Dutch just wasn't this crazed psycho you think he is.
Micah outlived his use at that point -- seeing John on the summit just solidified this idea to Dutch. Why was he hiding there out with Micah in the first place, if he had no problem just killing him off? Would he do that if John never showed up? Do ever think about these things or do you just mindlessly consume media on your screen without analyzing what is being shown?
I think that the kidnapping of Jack is meant to be another turning point where Dutch goes nuts. Him burning down the Braithwaite manor then cuddling up to Bronte is a shift and as such it's a bit tough to pick up where he starts acting solely on his ego. It's also ambiguous as to whether or not he really cares about people or if he's just deluding himself.
>turning point where Dutch goes nuts.
Nah I disagree, since everyone is completely on board when it comes to taking Jack back.
This is not something anyone had any complaints even Arthur was full on support of it.
Once again you're wrong.
>Dutch's family appear identical to the O'driscolls
They aren't, Dutch prefers a close knit family to that of a super large mafia like existence, the odriscolls were large as frick and their leader didn't at all care about its underlings, Dutch is the very opposite.
You can see that in situations like taking Jack back where he riles the whole fricking camp and burns down the whole fricking mansion just for Jack who's literally just the son of a prostitute in their group.
This idea that Dutch is just some sociopathic wacko that doesn't give a frick is a straight up lie.
He very much cares for his group and treats them like family, otherwise he wouldn't have had any followers to begin with.
Yeah he "cares" for them up until the point they stop idolizing his every word.
The ending of the game LITERALLY proves your point wrong where he fricking kills Micah.
Now shut up, moron.
Neither Arthur nor John wanted to kill Dutch.
They don't view him as a bad person at all.
Because he realized Micah played him.
Arthur was brainwashed by Dutch from a young age, of course he would never kill him.
John, despite also growing up in the family, is a bit smarter than Arthur and has no real reservations about it. He doesn't kill Dutch at the end of 2, because he was not expecting him there and used up all his anger and blame on Micah. In 1, however, John outright laments that "I should've killed you sooner, Dutch", when rushing after him in the mountain fortress.
> "I should've killed you sooner, Dutch", when rushing after him in the mountain fortress.
This is a straight up fabrication.
He literally tells the agents that he'd far sooner kill them than Dutch and has no real beef with Dutch.
Only reason he killed Dutch was because his family was being held hostage and nothing more.
Are you fricking stupid or do you lack reading comprehension? I am not saying that he is a "sociopath wacko" because sociopaths aren't "wacko" most of the time. They act quite normal in society, you know, they just view social interactions and other people differently from normal folk. Of course he appears as the most caring person in the world to his family, because he wants to, that is his goal.
>O'Sneedscolls
Again, reading comprehension, mate. Normal people in the game don't separate Dutch and the O'Driscolls. Only the player does, because we have a better perspective of the gang. In fact, that is a big point in the game, that the player is also duped by Dutch because we initially believe him to be different. You still seem to be under that impression.
>muh Jack
this guy illustrates to you how this situation really is. Even besides the ego thing, do you think a sociopath would be unaware of the fact that saving the kid would be seen as a great deed by the rest of the gang and would only improve his image amongst the group? Sociopaths aren't monsters that leave kids to die because they don't care about them, the still save them, but only to be positively viewed by other people. The kid is still a tool to them, but that doesn't make them worthless. In fact, sociopaths love kids and animals, because they are great tools to invoke sympathy and affection with other people.
You have no points.
Both Arthur and John put ZERO blame on Dutch.
None of them even tried to kill him.
Arthur and John were only interested in killing Micah and no one else, mainly because Micah was the one snitching to the agents about the groups movements.
Dutch has never not ONCE betrayed the group, hell if anything Arthur and Micah betrayed the group more than anyone, Micah snitched on the group and Arthur started growing a conscious the moment he began dying.
Dutch remained the same, if anything I'd say he was the sole constant in the entire game.
He's only viewed badly because Arthur the sociopath started regretting his actions.
Stockholm syndrome
I have a point, a few actually, you are just ignoring them because they don't fit your view. Why would a sociopath betray a group that they created and actively raised to bring back dividends in the form of ego-boosts and power-trips. Sociopaths aren't illogical, you know. They KNOW how they should act, they are not autists that are stumped by social interactions and their intricacies. They are aware and are using it to their best ability. You appear as someone who never interacted with a sociopath and have some pop culture understanding of one. Dutch is an example of a well-written sociopath, as he acts just like the ones in real life. In fact, he is written so well he actively fools players like you, which is a great compliment to the writers.
No, you're still wrong.
Even at the very brink, when the whole gang is collapsing when they are being surrounded and Agents are getting closer and closer Dutch doesn't cave in and betray.
He keeps on fighting to the bitter fricking end.
A sociopath would do something more rational, like Micah did.
Micah was aware that the group didn't have long to live so he just snitched them out, he didn't care about the group or anyone and once snitched out he can start it up all over again and find a new group.
Dutch if he was as sociopathic would have done the same, ditch everyone start up again.
But no, he fought to the end and it was only when EVERYONE literally left him or died that he resorted to finding a new group of people in RDR1.
Please don't attach Shoka to your crap takes.
Again, you don't understand what a sociopath is. Why should he cave in and betray his gang? It is not rational, not after all the effort he put in to create it and make its members worship him. Micah doesn't have a connection with the gang, so he has no use for them outside of snitching to the marshals and causing more rifts and quarrels within it.
A sociopath is not a parasite, that jumps from one group of people to another with ease and lack of guilt. If a sociopath did a lot for a group, they are actually willing to die for it, just so that they can be remembered fondly by the remaining members. The pain that Dutch goes through at the end of 2 is because all of his life-long machinations, plans and relationships are ruined and he appears guilty of the fact. People leaving behind his back and campers lacking enthusiasm for his ideas is a worse blow for him than any actual death of any gang member. At the start of the game, when he is still beloved by the group, he is actually willing to die for the group. He still tries to hang onto every member that remains, so he doesn't go snitching on those who stayed, but by the point everyone left and the camp is in flames, Dutch is just left sorry for himself, angry that he allowed all of this to happen and that he has to start a new ego farm, with much weaker links ad with much less enthusiasm about his person.
> If a sociopath did a lot for a group, they are actually willing to die for it, just so that they can be remembered fondly by the remaining members
That is not a sociopath.....
You're stupid and wrong.
You don't know what the frick you're even talking about at this point.
Oh, I know what I am talking about. My father is a diagnosed sociopath and when learning how to deal with him, I found out a lot about sociopaths that is not told in dictionaries and pop movies.
Power and influence are everything to them, even if they are not physically present to exert them over others. It is so pathological to a sociopath, that a good impression or a positive, lasting memory of themselves is more important than their actual self. They live for the fact, that the sound of their name alone triggers good emotions in other people. They want to be remembered as fondly as possible and do everything in their power to do so. Not because they are good people, but because their brain is wired to get immense amounts of pleasure and gratification from it.
Yes, dying to create a good image of oneself is totally a sociopathic thing to do. The idea of being considered a hero, a person willing to put his life for their cause o for others is what powers sociopaths to do it. Heroes are usually exempt from reassessment and you traditionally never say anything bad dead people, especially those that died heroically. To have that image of greatness and selflessness to be preserved in the heads of others is a tremendous achievement for a sociopath. To have eternal control over you image, even after you death is a prize to them and many are willing to do it. Most are never diagnosed or suspected, so they are considered to be heroes. They are still, of course, dying for a cause, but their are doing it entirely for themselves.
I forgot to mention the degree of attraction. Of course you wouldn't die to impress random people -- you do it if there are already good relations and, hopefully, some history with the people you want to remember you forever. Which is why many sociopaths in the modern world tend to be lacking of heroism -- there are simply worse social connection today between people. Many sociopaths can become jaded and outright satisfy themselves with illusions of grandeur and fake ideas about their self-image. Those are the dangerous ones, because they failed to realize themselves organically and would have a harder time t make actual good connections. Micah would be an example of such a sociopath.
>avatargay thinks he's the authority on knowing what you're talking about
At this point I'm willing to bet you yourself are a sociopath and you're mad at the mirror being held up to your face.
if you think you have to pinpoint exactly where Dutch turns into some egogay then you are no better than his crew. he was just a care salesman, pitching ideas and dreams but letting his men do the heavy lifting. he was more of a support role when it came down to actually showing up and putting the plan into action. that is why I myself never respected him. hell even Lenny did more for the gang then he did. His mouth was the only one doing any moving and he just a headache through the whole campaign
Dutch ultimately saw Jack as being another kid he could be a surrogate father to and mold into being a future Arthur. There's a element of gayin to Dutch's character.
He only cared about two things.
Tahiti, and THE PLAN.
not so much that than the fact that he likes being "the leader" or "the dad", and muh freedom, gold and tahiti is just the backdrop for it. maybe at the start it was genuine but somewhere along the line his real intentions changed due to external factors, whether he realized it or not.
chapter 6 of rdr2 was just his rdr1 arc, minus the van der linde gang and the fact that he's probably not fooling himself anymore.
It was always about his ego for him. He enjoys having power over people, being a leader. The one more job con is there because he knows that once they stop that lifestyle they won't need him anymore and he can't stand it. There's not a single genuine bone in his body, you can see that in how 2 reframes his last words in 1 as a repeat of a trick he had played before. He was trying to manipulate to the very end.
ORTHUR
I HAVE A PLAN
MANGOES ORTHUR
TAHITI
I think of RDR2 as an idealized version of John and Jack's unreliable memories from the first game. John tells the real truth once in that first game to Bonnie, when he admits they were just a gang of scumbags no better than the random gangs in hideouts you run across, a gang who would kill people just because they didn't like them, a gang who claimed to be Robin Hood figures but somehow just never got around to giving to the poor after stealing from the rich. The regret John continually expresses in that first game belies the semi noble actions you take in RDR2. They were never a family, just a romanticized notion of one. Some of those characters you live amongst and encounter in RDR2 might not even be real, as neither John nor Dutch nor Abigail nor Uncle nor Bill nor Javier ever mention them again, they may as well just be creations of smoke and fog in the book Jack wrote much later. Did Arthur even exist, or was he just the desperate wish for a father figure a lonely and neglected young boy had, brought to life? You see the truth of the gang in RDR, which explains inconsistencies such as Javier going from eloquent and philosophical in RDR2 to barely being able to speak English in RDR.
yes, yes he fricking did. He hid all the extra money from everyone else and lived much better than the rest of the gang, look at his lodgings compared to everyone else. how can you not see him as the grifter who he truly was?
dutch was consumed by his ego and it led him to devalue life. Its hinted that dutch seperated from colm because he was acting like how dutch was starting to act. Instead of a being a noble thief whole he started killing more and more innocence because that was apart of his masterplan. Thats how he coped with killing that girl during the blackwater incident hes still the good guy just doing bad things for a greater purpose no one knows.
I think Dutch really did want what was best for the gang in the early parts of the movie. But as things started to go from bad to worse, he felt his life slipping through his fingers. In a desperate attempt to keep things together and keep moving, he clung to Micah and started to let his own morality slip.
I don't buy the narrative that Dutch was always a piece of shit. He started fricking up, life became increasingly more difficult, and he was in "oh shit" mode 24/7 by the 3rd chapter onward. It simply broke him, but we don't realize it because he doesn't crumble visibly and cry. He seems to be in control of himself, because that's what a leader needs to show. He needs to show his followers that he's in control of the situation. But he's not. Things are slipping fast and he can't hold onto anything, and he loses his morality along with everything else.
Dutch was an old coot and couldn't get with the times. Murica was changing, the U.S. Gooberment was getting bigger.
One of his last lines is literally "you can't fight change".
Sort of like how ideologically possessed idiots go so far into the political spectrum they fall off into insanity
He was a man who built his life, identity, and "family" around mythologizing himself as some kind of rogue true patriot trying to outrun what he saw as the death of freedom. In 2 we see him lose everything he fought to build because he couldn't keep himself from engaging in self aggrandizing fantasies about himself and his gang rather than actually securing a future for them. I believe dutch really did care about these people, but he's so fricked in the head and desperate to get in a win that it all falls apart. By RDRedemption 1 we see that he basically just wound up alone with only the most desperate rallying around him just kinda lashing out waiting to be killed.
Something like that