i only read the first one as a 90s kid, and a weird spin off book that was pretty cool about a giant forest world that had fizban in it but his name was nazbif of something.
They seemed ok. I think that hating big multi author settings of fantasy books is just done by contrarian-kun because the a lot of anons seem to think that the less fun they are having the better their opinions are.
I'm sure some of Dragonlance and forgotten realms is great, and some is dog shit.
You can only read Dune and the Silmarillion so many times if you are actually an active reader. Books made to be fun and entertaining instead of heavy historical treatises is acceptable.
Should be a bit of both. I read pulp and then I read actual literature, fiction and non fiction, comic books and Penguin Classics. It has enriched my otherwise miserable lot no end
>a weird spin off book that was pretty cool about a giant forest world that had fizban in it but his name was nazbif of something.
Elven Star, second book of the Deathgate Cycle, by the same authors but unrelated to Dragonlance. Also, Zifnab.
deathgate was kino when I was a kid, the third(?) one where he goes to the elemantal plane of earth and finds a dying civillisation running on "totally not evil" necromancy and it ends with the dead taking over in basically a zombie apocalypse was kino.
I wouldn't go that far. Mostly because there's much fewer of them.
That said, shit they suck. I decided to read them last year during deployment and they were an absolute slog. I fricking hated these books. The only characters I liked were Raistlin and--of all people -- Tasslehoff because they were the only characters who had any kind of external drive. Everyone else was either a self-loathing loser or a moralist busybody. Finding out Margaret Weiss is a Mormon made Goldmoon make a lot more sense to me.
But at the end of the day I think the books had minimal impact other than being one of many inspirations on Chris Metzen and Warcraft. Iirc he said Sturm Brightblade had a major impact on him.
>Iirc he said Sturm Brightblade had a major impact on him. >Dragon Lance character had an impact on him.
What the frick happened? Did the book fall off the top shelf or something?
I wouldn't go that far. Mostly because there's much fewer of them.
That said, shit they suck. I decided to read them last year during deployment and they were an absolute slog. I fricking hated these books. The only characters I liked were Raistlin and--of all people -- Tasslehoff because they were the only characters who had any kind of external drive. Everyone else was either a self-loathing loser or a moralist busybody. Finding out Margaret Weiss is a Mormon made Goldmoon make a lot more sense to me.
But at the end of the day I think the books had minimal impact other than being one of many inspirations on Chris Metzen and Warcraft. Iirc he said Sturm Brightblade had a major impact on him.
The real tragedy is that he clearly felt that literary fiction had peaked in Dragonlance, so he quit reading alltogether.
>I was more of an Eddings guy. >I kind of liked the Keys to Paradise too, for the slop that it was. Kind of liked the idea of the trans as a "kind of" enemy faction, if only for the fairy tale vibe of evil queen turning everyone into animals as a final frick you. >>> > Anonymous 01/29/24(Mon)04:20:25 No.91728347▶
Pfft, edgy mcedgelord guy going full ebil? This was a shock to who? Even when they were first released, it wasn't a shock to anyone.
Why was Kitiara described as this hot chick?
She looked like an 80s closet lesbo in the cover art.
4 months ago
Anonymous
Autistic answer: the text and the cover are not co-dependant when created. Also, the covers of the Chronicles books I read had her helmet on so I never mentally associated her with 80's hair and imagined she was hotter.
4 months ago
Anonymous
Back then the cover artists basically did whatever the frick they wanted and the author just kind of had to deal with it. There's loads of examples out there of cover art from that time period that doesn't match the plot or even the tone of the book.
4 months ago
Anonymous
Authors back then usually realized that the cover sold the book, and if they forgot they got reminded real quick after their new novel with the cover they insisted on changing sold like shit.
4 months ago
Anonymous
That's hardly an excuse. If you're going to do something, do it right. A cover that doesn't accurately reflect the book is actionable false advertising.
4 months ago
Anonymous
>A cover that doesn't accurately reflect the book is actionable false advertising.
In what fricking court?
Eragon was first published in 2002 and got popular in 2003. If a person read Eragon in high school in 2003, then they would be, at the youngest, 35, and more likely 36-39. And that's only if they read it as soon as it came out: it was still on the bestsellers list in 2005, so they could be as old as 41.
No, I just messed up how time works. For some reason I imagined myself reading Eragon in highschool and thought "but I read that book in third grade, it came out way earlier".
Suffice to say, I'm moronic.
4 months ago
Anonymous
Its possible, nay probable; you saw Star Wars in 3rd grade and conflated it with Eragon which was basically Star Wars/Jeremy Thatcher, Dragon Hatcher and that one fantasy setting where the series gets it's magic system from.
4 months ago
Anonymous
No, I know exactly at what age I read the individual Eragon books. I just completely fricked up the "reading Eragon in highschool" part because my brain interpreted these words as "Anon read the first Eragon book when I was highschool age". Anon obviously read it when he was highschool age.
I didn't realize how much Christopher Paolini lifted from Tolkein. I knew that Paolini liked Tolkein...
I loved the first Eragon book. Dragonriders are cool.
The Second one was pretty good, but I wasn't a fan of the vegetarianism.
The third was a slog and the fourth I didn't even bother with.
>I didn't realize how much Christopher Paolini lifted from Tolkein.
Bruh it's Star Wars by way of The Lord of the Rings. It could not be more derivative. And don't anyone give me any of that shit about Tortellini being 15 when he wrote it either that's a lie. He was 15 when he "imagined" the story, he wrote it between the ages of 18 and 19. Then instead of leaving it on fanfiction.net where it belongs his wealthy and doting parents self-published their autistic sprog's literary abortion and helped him promote it until it was popular enough to be picked up by a real publisher.
4 months ago
Anonymous
>he wrote it between the ages of 18 and 19
To be fair an 18yo isn't all that more intellectually mature than a 15yo.
4 months ago
Anonymous
People start coming out of puberty at age 16, at least.
4 months ago
Anonymous
I had enough self-awareness at 15 to know I shouldn't write fanfiction of the things I liked + my basic political beliefs.
>zoomzoom
Millennial but whatever gramps. I thought you Xers were all dead from pot overdose by now.
For all their popularity I sure don't see their impact nowadays. Dragonlance is effectively dead. I can't think of any of the people I've played D&D with over the past decade who would know what I'm talking about if I brought up Tanis Halfelven or Goldmoon or the Knights of Solamnia. I feel like Lord Soth is the only thing anyone actually remembers from DL.
His "I would frick you if I wasn't dead" vibes with Kitiara were great.
Iirc he was also a major character in Ravenloft, which had more longevity as a setting even if that means it's just been absorbed into the FR mushpot.
No other character enjoyed his popularity. Tika and Kitiara exist only in the spank banks of nerds from the 80s.
I've got his standalone novel (lying around, somewhere), which details his backstory, how he became a deathknight, and how he ends up in Ravenloft.
It's pretty fun.
>For all their popularity I sure don't see their impact nowadays. >Book written 40 years ago is somehow not well known by people under the age of 40
truly a mystery
I remember Kender, and as an adult learning that the authors were Mormons and the whole thing was one big Mormon fantasy fanfiction. Also apparently the Gully Dwarves are the authors being racist towards Appalachian people.
The book series is effectively dead, but they were the first major hit in the genre of rpg inspired paperbacks that paved the way for things like Black Library. Also, the modules were some of the first to push world altering metaplots rather than somewhat more contained results. Their impact appears limited because they altered the industry to such an extent that it no longer appears impressive.
>I feel like Lord Soth is the only thing anyone actually remembers from DL.
That's because Lord Soth was one of the best parts of Dragonlance. He is loads more compelling as a character than the actual villain and even a lot of the heroes.
Takhisis is a generic evil b***h, Kitara is a generic evil b***h in miniature. Soth is doomed to be a ghost forever because he was an butthole who had a chance to genuinely prevent the apocalypse and redeem himself in the process but let his fear and doubts rule him and turned his back on a literal god given mission to save the world. He's tragic because he meant well and was tricked into doing so, but he's still a dick because the deception only worked by appealing to his selfishness and jealousy.
>none of my friends talk about Neuromancer, so obviously it didn't have any lasting impact
I never know whether people like you are more pitiable or amusing. I do know that you're moronic.
To be fair Sturm is one of the better characters, which isn't necessarily saying much considering his competition but still. He's no Raistlin or Lord Soth but when he's not wallowing in guilt and takes an active role in the plot he's actually engaging and he does eventually manage to mostly unfrick himself and die a noble death befitting a knight in the end. His arc is basic and the execution is kind of mediocre, but it's still superior to characters like Tanis Half-Elven or Goldmoon.
All in all I'd put him up there with Caramon post Twins trilogy. An actually halfway decent character with a smattering of genuine pathos, which by default puts him leagues above the vast majority of characters in the books.
Tanis is probably the worst character in the books. >Gee Tanis, how come your mom lets you have TWO sexy girlfriends?
And he does nothing but cry about it.
To be fair one of those sexy girlfriends does try to kill him multiple times. On the other hand you'd think after like, the third murder attempt he'd come to the conclusion that Kitara is a huge c**t who isn't worth giving the time of day much less sleeping with and just go with Laurana already. But he spends basically the entire trilogy whining about it whenever he gets the chance.
The novels are just a retelling of someone's campaign, and Raistlin's player was obviously one of those homosexuals who is always saying shit that sounds profound to 14 year olds like "he's the perfect sociopath" and acting like his wizard/sorceror/thief/assassin isn't really part of the group just traveling with these people.
Raistlin was the truest wizard in Krynn, in the annotated version of one book the authors note he has to resist sexual passions to preserve his power. That's how he surpassed the other magic-users.
I'm not saying i dislike raistlyn because he was celebate. i dislike him because he's the most cringe evil PC power fantasy that was played out the first time it happened. volcel chads are based, but raistlyn is literally a bad person and people who like him are all invariably lonely losers who are either incels or have a 700 pound dependapotamus who think because they obsess over rpgs, tcgs or wargames that 'he's just like me'. his powers and personality are dumb af, all of Dragonlance is literally just a raistlyn wank fest as he ascends to literal godhood.
OHH RAISTLYN I KNOW YOU ARE MEAN AND WIERD AND UGLY BUT WE STILL HAVE TO DO WHATEVER YOU WANT BECAUSE YOU NEED TO SAVE THE WORLD. PLEASE SAVE THE WORLD RAISTLYN YOU ARE SO MUCH SMARTER AND BETTER THEN ME AND I'M SORRY I BULLIED YOU IN HIGH SCHOOL ITS OKAY IF YOU FRICK MY WIFE.
Thats literally a summery of the first like 8 Dragonlance books.
I like Raistlin BECAUSE he's so autistically dedicated to being a bad person. He starts out an understandably bitter and disillusioned man but almost every single time Raistlin is offered the chance to be a decent person or do something good you can see him genuinely consider it, seriously weigh the pros and cons of his decision, and then deliberately choose to be a dick. This happens more and more as time goes on until he ends the original trilogy having actively chosen to be a worse person than he was at the start.
Then in the Twins trilogy he fricking doubles down on it and practically bases his whole plan on sacrificing everything and everyone that matters to him in the name of power. And the thing is he actually kind of struggles with it. He almost abandons his plan more than once. He has to actually work at giving up his humanity, and he's so single minded and focused on his plan that he never stops to question whether maybe this isn't as good an idea as he thought it way. He's so dedicated that his brother has to use LITERAL TIME TRAVEL to prove to him that his plan is a terrible idea that's going to destroy everything.
Raistlin a very smart man so consumed by bitterness that he doesn't realize everything he does is ultimately self-defeating until the very end, and I think that's an entertaining character to watch.
That he chooses to sacrifice all his goals in the end and willingly become prisoner to Takhisis is the ultimate redemption, there is no difference to his situation either way, he could've decided to just frick everyone and everything in a nuclear option, but he chose the bitter end that was only bitter for himself because the sacrifice of everyone and everything was not worth it, he does value all who are close to him and the world, but until the result was revealed to him he genuinely believed he could do better as master of all, make a better world and rule it as a better god. When proven wrong he gives up all he had worked for to preserve everything else, then goes on to help his nephew even through his divinely imposed suffering.
4 months ago
Anonymous
Getting eternally pegged by Takhisis isn't really a "bad end", anon.
4 months ago
Anonymous
homosexual, Raistlin was flayed and worse over and over, a fate meant to be eternal.
4 months ago
Anonymous
Right, because Raistlin always had the potential to be a decent person and not an butthole. Well, not an evil butthole at least. His descent into villainy was entirely avoidable. He just repeatedly chose not to do so out of arrogance and bitterness until he finally realized that being an evil butthole had left him with absolutely nothing of value and managed to pull the plug on his whole operation at the literal last second before it blew up in everyone's face.
The best praise that can be said about him is that even after everything he did to get to the point of being legitimately able to challenge a god he was still willing to throw the whole thing away in a second when presented with compelling enough evidence.
4 months ago
Anonymous
>repeatedly chose not to do so out of arrogance and bitterness
Incredibly shallow take, he had a goal and was constantly calculating exactly what that goal required to be achieved, he was kind when it did not interfere with his end-game, like with the gully dwarves.
Only upon seeing that axhievment of his goal was futile to his desired ends did he give up pursuit of it, and then even though he had to do so at the point which would turn out as bad for him as it could possibly get.
There is a reason he was given the red robes, he was never good or evil, he was neutral. His "descent to evil" was not him becoming evil, it was performing a necessary step to achieve his calculated end.
4 months ago
Anonymous
>There is a reason he was given the red robes, he was never good or evil, he was neutral
Yes, he was neutral; at the start of the story, when he still has the red robes. He literally abandons them for the black by the end and does so in a way that pisses off even the other wizards because lied to/didn't tell them. He very much stops being neutral, he himself admits this.
Raistlin does do good things, he is capable of sympathy and kindness, and being a decent, if acerbic, person. He willingly suppresses that most of the time in the name of his own arrogant belief that he should be in charge because he can do better than everyone else. Being kind when it's convenient for him and doesn't interfere with his plans doesn't make him a kind person when said plans involve instigating a war, betraying his friends, and sacrificing innocent people.
What reason did Raistlin have to believe that he would do a better job as god aside from being the most powerful wizard to ever live? Remember in the bad future he doesn't just kill her and take her place as head evil god he uses her stolen power to bootstrap himself into trying to take over the rest of the pantheon.
Calculating the exact amount of atrocities you have to commit in order to accomplish your goal doesn't excuse from having willing committed atrocities in pursuit of that goal.
Calculating the exact amount of atrocities you have to commit in order to accomplish your goal doesn't excuse from having willing committed atrocities in pursuit if
4 months ago
Anonymous
>when said plans involve instigating a war, betraying his friends, and sacrificing innocent people.
Only because he intends to do a better job of fairly and competently ruling existence in the end, these are all things he honestly believes he can undo and make right when he fulfills his goal.
The moment he realizes he is wrong, he makes the ultimate sacrifice to prevent further damage by his mistaken path.
He is not evil.
4 months ago
Anonymous
Isn't that like that one guy from Wakfu?
4 months ago
Anonymous
How should I know? I'm ITT for Dragonlance.
4 months ago
Anonymous
>Only because he intends to do a better job of fairly and competently ruling existence in the end, these are all things he honestly believes he can undo and make right when he fulfills his goal.
Cool motive, still murder. I don't recall the gods having been shown to be able to resurrect the dead, much less do so at the scale you're talking about considering he's responsible for hundreds of deaths at minimum that happened thousands of years in the past. Those people are gone and not coming back.
Why does he think he is capable of doing a better job of ruling existence than anyone else or any of the existing gods anyway? What makes him better qualified than any other random tyrant or megalomaniac? Claiming that his ends justify the means only works if his end wasn't already an expression of arrogance and a desire for power and control. So he had good intentions, so what? The road to hell is paved with good intentions. Good intentions alone don't prevent you from being a bad person.
>This happens more and more as time goes on until he ends the original trilogy having actively chosen to be a worse person than he was at the start.
The Mormon Hero's Journey.
I don't hate Dragonlance, I hate his fans. That was a passionate and big cringe take on the character. If you model yourself, or your RP, off of Raistlyn UR CRINGE. Both because it attracts THAT GUY so incredibly consistently and also because likely you will do it way worse than the authors of DL. Raistlyn was a cleaned up novel character with a defined character arc, your evil PC is just gonna piss everyone off at the table most likely. And that character only works with a bunch of loving friends and family as a foil for the reasons you mentioned.
4 months ago
Anonymous
Oh absolutely, Raistlin is a good character but a terrible PC. In fact he would have stopped being a PC around the time he abandoned the rest of the party to die while he teleported away with the super powerful magic artifact. That's the kind of thing that gets a character retired and turned into an NPC.
You could play a Raistlin like character and make it work in a game, but you'd have to walk a very fine line to avoid being That Guy, and you'd almost by necessity end up with a very different character arc since you presumably don't want your PC to betray the party and then dip off halfway through the campaign, and your fellow players are much more willing to just write your PC off as not worth the trouble if he continually refuses to play ball and screw them over compared to the characters in the novel.
I haven't read these books since high school. But even then they were quite meh.
As said, the characters are just kinda... you didn't really care. Concur on Raistlin but not on Tasslehoff, the character I remember liking best was Kitiara, but that may have been because I was a horny little beast in school.
Even when I was reading them at that age I can remember thinking that LOTR blew them out the water.
>But at the end of the day I think the books had minimal impact other than being one of many inspirations on Chris Metzen and Warcraft.
lol
Dragonlance and the module adapted for it are responsible for the death of the original D&D playstyle and the cancerous proliferation of storyhomosexualry
This may surprise you but fantasy stories preceded D&D. Dragonlance was a huge success and its kind of surprising that the thread is unclear that the dragonlance campaign and modules were hugely popular, much loved and preceded the books. Everything is so spiteful and tearing everything down constantly with you morons these days. You can't just say, yeah, that was nice. Dragonlance was nice, the books were fun pulp fiction and there were lots of competing trilogies and authors. A good time was had by all. The original two dragonlance trilogies are perfect books for teens.
>The original two dragonlance trilogies are perfect books for teens.
I read these books starting when I was 7, my grandmother got me one for birthday, christmas and easter presents. I was onto The Black Company by 12.
No one with any sense cares about what other people do with their games. Play your table how you want, and stop shitting your diaper over things that don't affect you.
The Dragolance Chronicles were decent for what they were (derivative 80s fantasy) and had unironically cool characters, worldbuilding, set up pieces and locations when it wasn't doing a mormon version of LOTR with teenager titillation.
Almost all other DL books are trash and the TTRPGs were mediocre, sadly.
Doom Brigade was the only dragonlance novel I actually enjoyed between the villain protagonists just wanting to survive and the dwarves being entertaining idiots.
I remember Kender, and as an adult learning that the authors were Mormons and the whole thing was one big Mormon fantasy fanfiction. Also apparently the Gully Dwarves are the authors being racist towards Appalachian people.
Can anyone more articulate than me explain the Mormon angle to DL and why Mormon influence in fantasy books is always so obvious? Other than Goldmoon nosing into Caramon's personal life to give him a sex before marriage lecture.
I don't know why but there's something about Mormon fantasy writers that sticks out. But it's not so easy to actually explain what it is that they keep doing. All I know is it's lame.
The big, obvious one is the Golden Plates that John Smith 'discovered' and managed to translate by putting them in his hat by Divine Providence and this new truth being the basis for real religion and Mormonism is pretty much the exact thing that Goldmoon using the Silver Discs to bring back real religion and the true gods to Krynn.
The Priest King causing the Cataclysm probably has a parallel somewhere since he's obviously the Pope. Goldmoon being a white Native American has something to do with Mormonism somehow because Mormonism is weird about them and black people. Maybe someone who knows more about Mormonism can explain more.
Mormons think native americans are descended from ancient Israelites who built barrel-like boats and sailed there. They're brown because they were cursed due to their ancestors not following Jesus like the other Israeli group that sailed there (and got genocided) but Mormons think they're still Israelites and should be befriended and converted, making them one of the more Native-friendly groups in America. African blacks on the other hand have the curse of Ham and weren't allowed initiation into the church until the 70's, Brigham Young used to teach sex with them was punishable by death..
>The big, obvious one is the Golden Plates that John Smith 'discovered' and managed to translate by putting them in his hat by Divine Providence and this new truth being the basis for real religion and Mormonism is pretty much the exact thing that Goldmoon using the Silver Discs to bring back real religion and the true gods to Krynn.
The big, obvious one is the Golden Plates that John Smith 'discovered' and managed to translate by putting them in his hat by Divine Providence and this new truth being the basis for real religion and Mormonism is pretty much the exact thing that Goldmoon using the Silver Discs to bring back real religion and the true gods to Krynn.
The Priest King causing the Cataclysm probably has a parallel somewhere since he's obviously the Pope. Goldmoon being a white Native American has something to do with Mormonism somehow because Mormonism is weird about them and black people. Maybe someone who knows more about Mormonism can explain more.
Mormons think native americans are descended from ancient Israelites who built barrel-like boats and sailed there. They're brown because they were cursed due to their ancestors not following Jesus like the other Israeli group that sailed there (and got genocided) but Mormons think they're still Israelites and should be befriended and converted, making them one of the more Native-friendly groups in America. African blacks on the other hand have the curse of Ham and weren't allowed initiation into the church until the 70's, Brigham Young used to teach sex with them was punishable by death..
Cataclysm's = The Fall from Eden
Priest King = Anti-Christ
In Mormon belief, before God made physical bodies for man, he had a meeting with his top dudes about whether man should be slaves who could only do what we're told or have free will at the risk of rebellion . Jesus advocated for Free Will while Lucifer said we should be mindless drones. Human souls joined in the resulting war. Those who sided against Jesus (who God chose) were cursed to have black bodies. Those who sided with Jesus were blessed with blonde hair and blue eyes.
Jimmy Carter threatened to remove the LDS' tax-emempt status if they didn't accept blacks blacks. Their Elder prophesied God had given him a vision they should allow blacks in their congregation.
As to the Native American thing, I think it's that Mormons believe history's very altered/mistaken, with North America being the real site of Ancient Israel -not Palestine.
I was more of an Eddings guy.
I kind of liked the Keys to Paradise too, for the slop that it was. Kind of liked the idea of the trans as a "kind of" enemy faction, if only for the fairy tale vibe of evil queen turning everyone into animals as a final frick you.
I fricking loved David Eddings, shame he abused the shit out of his kids and they were taken away. Spoiled it for me.
Same with that other broad who did the Mists of Avalon, her and her husband were evil if their daughter is to be believed. Aasimov also very handsy. Arthur c Clarke a boy enthusiast. Kind of headtbreaking.
Please don't tell me Harry Turtledove is an arsehole.
I love that the stupid 'embrace tradition' meme kept acting like the Heroes of the Lance were somehow less 'Precious OCs' then the Mighty Nine (I don't care enough to spell it right).
Caleb Widogast wishes he could be as much of an edgelord as Raistlin.
The original trilogy was surprisingly not as great as I thought it would be, considering how popular it was.
The sequel trilogy - the Twins trilogy - was much better written, though I think someone needs to read the original trilogy to care more about the characters still in the Twins trilogy.
When did the irda appear in the novels? I mean, the first ever Dragonlance campaign setting all the way back in 1e decided that irda and minotaurs were important enough to the setting they needed PC writeups.
First off, the primary audience was Gen X/early Millennials rather than their Boomer parents.
Second, No, because it was an attempt at a new IP rather than an attempt to de-mythologize setting backstory. During the time they were published there was a sense of "what happens next?" rather than "what event/character are they going to mess up next?"
I read the first book in highschool and I liked it. Then a few years later I tried to read the second book and I dropped it after the fist chapters because it felt too infantile for me. I don't know if my taste changed so much in the spare of these couple years or was the first book really so much better than the second one.
I liked it, they were my second books of fantasy than I read after the Hobbit, LotR and Eddings (than I started the second series of the belgariath becasue the library lady didn't know shit about fantasy).
They aren't high brow literatrue, but they were entertaining and had lots of iconic characters. I know kenders are a bane, but I loved the gully dwarfs, the other dwarfs and they machinations, the different characters (Flitn T.T) and of course Sturm and Raistlin. Fricking hell that series made me cry three times (two be teh Dragolances main, another in one of the many and unecesary other books).
Tasslehoff worked fine as an individual character, and was even endearing. The problem is that his behavior simply doesn’t make sense scaled up to an entire species.
Thing is, it was written that how he acted was typical kender behavior. There was no way people weren't gonna act just like that. It was a cart blanch for "It's what my character would do!" type bs. Pure cancer.
Yep, and that’s what killed it. If they’d been normal halflings, but he in particular happened to act that way, he’d have just been a quirky character instead of the face of a blight on the hobby.
the cover art and some of the art in general was so good that it tricked people and elevated the novels. The books were simple and strangely fun but not good books, like a peculiar fast food meal. Junk food with fine wrapping.
turkish early millenials loved that shit.
Dragonlance was the only fantasy novel translated to turkish besides Lord of the Rings (and with one year of difference I recall) and remained so into early 2000s. No Discworld, no other TSR novels, no Wheel of Time, nothing. Nothing but lotr and dragonlance.
You can watch the moronic fan trailer made in early 2000s on youtube
Translation shenanigans are always fascinating to me; it's an randomizer to cultural influence >that trailer
I fricking hate Dragonlance, but I fricking love this.
What struck me is how incompetent the Heroes are. They sort of blunder into success. Like, the only guy who knew what he was doing was Major Raisin.
Also they're amusingly horny, like Tanis getting a stiffy when now-legal Laurana's nubile Elven body is pressed against his own, Silvanna's shower (complete with nippley silhouette) and Gilanthas' rather embarrassing seduction of her, and Tanis taking time off from an infiltration to bang Kitara for a week.
Also Legends had Raisin really, really want to bang Crystannia, but was afraid he'd lose his sigma male powers if he did. Or the scene where the Dark Queen (in her form as Dark Temptress) gives him a lapdance all night, making him wake up all sweaty, sticky and with confusing feelings.
What a shame for young adult fiction. It was wholesome by comparison to today's nonsense
Krynn is the hill I die on. It's a cheesy as frick thing but it was made with love and is devoid of cynicism. It's a hardcore heavy metal fan who loves his mum.
>Wasn't Laurana technically underage in the first trilogy?
What difference is that supposed to make? The younger they are, the longer you can keep them enslaved to your wiener.
>book review >"Infamous reputations are sometimes deserved. Such a case is "Tara Of The Twilight." Lin Carter is a capable writer but you have to be in the right mood for this book. If you are looking for an erotic sword and sorcery novel with such charming elements as pedophilia, rape, and general perversion, this is the book for you. I wonder what the fact that I enjoyed it so thoroughly says about me?"
Thanks, anon!
Yes, insofar as it contains many soap opera elements and allegories about the power of faith and relationships, but no insofar as it's way more engaging and wholesome than whatever filth is leaking out of GWs hatch this week.
A lot of franchises have been ruined by new owners and writers who give 0 shits about what went before. To the contrary, most "creators" nowadays seem actively hostile to the source material they are supposedly improving, wanting to improve on it or add to it "their own" ideas which are indistinguishably identical copies of what a Larry Fink type raised them to believe.
HH was a fundamental mistake as it took what was meant to be a speculated-on mythology and made it a retconned official canon with pointless minutia for nerds.
they had the novelty of being the first official TSR books that reflected an actual game campaign, which is the major reason they have their place in history. HH really is a different animal at a different time.
Then you had all the wannabes who thought they were gonna write their next campaign into a series of 'epic books!1!1!" and got mad when players would derail and circumvent their story lines. Yes I had a DM like that. Yes DL was his favorite set of books and yes we wrecked each and every one of his campaigns by simply pointing out the glaringly obvious flaws.
>I enjoy the smut fics of Laurana being treated as a cumdump.
They aren't even smutfics. She's a cum dump already. Look how she's dressed. You know she wants it.
The weird ass Balanced Good-Evil cosmology was always the most annoying part for me. The only way the Hickmans made it work is by decoupling D&D's concept of 'Good' from any ethical standards and making it another flavour of Evil, because too much Good means slavery, I guess.
It's sort of tongue in cheek but ultimately makes sense: in order to have free will you obviously need a choice of sort. The ultimate destruction of evil comes with the destruction of the dichotomy good vs evil that makes good (or evil) existing in the first place.
This is why authors like Poul Anderson and Michael Moorwiener made the dichotomy one of Law vs. Chaos. That way, you can have chaotic guys who are good people, and lawful guys who are shitc**ts. Never mind that idiots often turn this back into Good vs. Evil without any nuance, especially in the TTRPG hobby.
>If Takhisis and Tiamat are the same
They weren't the same, so there's you're "if" done with for the past. As for why she doesn't now, generally poor setting? too much wokeness? Even in 4e she was assuming human female form.
People say 4e's Draconomicon equates Takhisis with Tiamat but when I read that I only saw Takhisis mentioned once in passing and it didn't say anything like that.
It was only after Weis and Hickman and all the 1e and 2e era work that WotC decided in some way that they were the same. But, iirc, even then Takhisis was a greater god and Tiamat was a lesser god which would make them not the same. It was in 5e that they officially were announced to be the same.
Weis and Hickman say Takhisis and Paladine (TP) are not Tiamat and Bahamut (BT).
Grubb, who also worked on early DL, might think they are the same, but maybe not. I don't remember a tweet or interview or editorial where he conclusively says they are.
At the time of DL's initial development Grubb was running a campaign with three sets of 7 each gods for good, neutral and evil. This pantheon was mostly transplanted into DL. In his campaign B&T went by the names Draco Paladin and Draco Cerebus respectively. That looks a bit like they are the same but he doesn't say that T&P are B&T.
That the gods were the same in Grubb's campaign does not mean they were the same in DL despite their creative origin. Neither Fizban or Huma were from Grubb's campaign. Grubb says that Huma and Paladine were the same at the very start of DL's development but Hickman made Huma into a mortal and introduced Fizban very early on. They might have been sourced from Grubb but they weren't identical with Grubb's creations.
Weis and Hickman have been adamant about this and the only statements I am aware of by Grubb are what I've noted above, that they lifted his pantheon to DL and in his campaign the gods that became TP. He doesn't say that they are the same. (Though he might have said that elsewhere.)
>Dude, this is like saying Odin/Woden/Wotan are different gods
That's not a good example as those names you mention are stem from phonological drift over centuries as geographically dispersed cultures changed the way they pronounced words. They're all from the same source and they clearly refer to the same imaginary entity.
Your analogy breaks down further because Odin did not have a design team deliberately take inspiration from a source and make changes to it over a few weeks and months to make it distinct and suit their game setting. When the core design team says "Takhisis was based on Draco Cerebus who was inspired by Tiamat (who was inspired by Tiamat from Mesopotamian mythology) but Takhisis is not Tiamat" then Takhisis is not Tiamat. It's not even a matter of Takhisis being derivative of Tiamat, there's no question that it is derivative, but derivative does not mean "is identical with".
Yeah I know they're the same, but that is no phonological drift, that's entirely different names with entirely different specifics to the entities beyond a couple of basic core concepts. Literally less common between those than Bahamut/Paladine and Tiamat/Takhisis.
You defeat your own argument.
4 months ago
Anonymous
>You defeat your own argument.
b***h I hadn't even been talking to you calm your ass down.
4 months ago
Anonymous
>hadn't even been talking to you
Yes you did, that's what (You)ing me is.
Legend of Huma was my favorite when I was younger since it appealed to my fantasy of fricki- riding a dragon.
Trying to reread the main trilogy was too painful since the start is full of tabletop-esque character exposition and gameplay mechanics written in. Some of the others are not too bad, just basic.
Having to choose a patron from one of the magic gods and wear their heraldry isn't that stupid an idea. What's stupid is the fact that the choices are framed solely as the good one, the neutral one, and the evil one. But this is Krynn so being moronic about "The Balance of Good and Evil" is par for the course.
The original 2 trilogies, plus the ones by Knaak are good, as are the ones about Kang and the boys. A lot of the rest was just for the money, and it shows. Still, DL is one of my favorite settings
>before the LotR movies, only gigalosers were into fantasy. like, really really socially dead people.
I always loved fantasy. The hobbit was the first book I finished, bedtime sorties were narnia, I loved paint figures and playing OG D&D I read all of these series as a teenager as I was in a military school environment where speaking was forbidden for very very very long sessions where you just had to sit and learn or read. I'm a twice decorated combat veteran and sports ball medals winner and have been very financially successful (I have more money than I could ever spend), I have friends all over the world and am published author and have partied hard with the rich and famous and seen things tragic and beautiful you can't even imagine. I have been very lucky and my adult children are well balanced STEM graduates and I have a beautiful wife. You should probably have read more fantasy as a child.
>I always loved fantasy. The hobbit was the first book I finished, bedtime sorties were narnia, I loved paint figures and playing OG D&D I read all of these series as a teenager
>fukken loser lmao
I am fairly certain that you are projecting there. There are undoubtedly many many people more accomplished than I and I have met quite a few and most of those enjoyed fantasy literature too. Sneering at people who enjoy fantasy literature or science fiction just makes you seem rather squalid. The fact you think a child should NOT like reading the Hobbit is very strange unless you are just an insecure underage teen.
Shit, now I've suddenly been reminded of another book that margaret weis wrote, which after searching for a moment I've found was called mistress of dragons, where there was a lengthy and detailed scene involving a dragon raping a woman.
Dragons of a summer flame is the perfect natural conclusion to the story of dragonlance as a whole because the best possible thing for the inhabitants of krynn is for the gods to finally frick off forever (without throwing a tantrum and ruining everything first) and stop waging their absurdly petty proxy wars using the mortals.
Original trilogy was great as a kid. Although I’m sure it will be terrible to read now.
The twins sequel trilogy; The first two books were meh with the boring time travel adventures. The final book was great though, since everybody was back in the present and it actually felt like a sequel to the first trilogy.
Second Generation and Dragons of the Summer Flame were complete dogshit. I read the tie in novels after that but my interest started waning when the alien dragons showed up in Krynn.
>Although I’m sure it will be terrible to read now.
Everything you read as a kid is. Unless you can go back and experience them again for the first time without knowledge of literary tropes and genre conventions, they will never and can never be as engaging when you've grown up.
LOTR doesn't count. Its legitimately so good that it will hold up. Same with 2 of the dune books (you know which two).
Eragon was incredibly nostalgic for me. As a book written by a 16 year old it was hugely appealing to me in middle school when it came out and I read it. I could see exactly why I liked it so much as a kid, its genuinely a great young adult novel because it's really written from a teen perspective.
And while the ending isn't great Eragons maturity comes more from the maturing of the author than Paolinos talent as a writer.
Do yourself a favor and read the Soulforge. Not the book of the same name, no, oh no no no, the old gamebook. It is likely to be the best written book of Dragonlance, it gives a better hindsight on Raistlin than the first three books ever did, it is all about the Dread Test and why he became a piece of ###.
Oh man, I had this. Agreed, it was great. The downbeat tone of it caught me off guard as a kid.
I wouldn't go that far. Mostly because there's much fewer of them.
That said, shit they suck. I decided to read them last year during deployment and they were an absolute slog. I fricking hated these books. The only characters I liked were Raistlin and--of all people -- Tasslehoff because they were the only characters who had any kind of external drive. Everyone else was either a self-loathing loser or a moralist busybody. Finding out Margaret Weiss is a Mormon made Goldmoon make a lot more sense to me.
But at the end of the day I think the books had minimal impact other than being one of many inspirations on Chris Metzen and Warcraft. Iirc he said Sturm Brightblade had a major impact on him.
and just to pile on, yeah i re-read them about the years ago and christ they are fricking terrible. I can tolerate some crapness in the name of a genre kick, but it was excruciating. i bought a big collection and it went to the charity shop very soon after.
I'm fricking stunned they didn't try to reboot Dragonlance. There's so much shit in it that doesn't fly today, so many twitter idiots going batshit about it every year. They should have at least retconned Goldmoon's people to be actual natives and not aryans in indian cosplay.
>They should have at least retconned Goldmoon's people to be actual natives and not aryans in indian cosplay.
Natives used to be white IRL so no need for that.
t. Mormon
The fact that books this boring were so successful says somehting about the fantasy scene but I don't know what. Maybe the early 80s were just a drought for good new stuff? There certainly is a ton of better fantasy out there from the 50s-60s
Dragonlance books were first fantasy books i did read, apart from pages here and there from what slop my dad got from library (he was/is just a farmer who read up any fiction he encountered, without being a nerd). Then it was eddings, salvatore, howard and something which name i just can't remember (something to do with demons lol, iirc protagonists joined to army at the start) and tolkien only few years after. I admit that DL is the basis to my image of high fantasy, elves & other shit. I don't know how much different it would actually be if i would have started with Tolkien. Maybe a bit more refined or something? I actually did not even know about him or the books at first.
Kids should start with the Silmarillion, just so that their image of elves is dudes who trecked across a frozen ocean to push a spear up somebody's rear end.
Don't apologise for liking a book when you were a kid. Dragonlance is solid until you're a 49 year old no games whiner who calls everybody who didn't take a second mortgage out to play games a secondary.
An actual homosexual too? Usually "newbie" isn't so accurate!
4 months ago
Anonymous
>I will just bullycide people into playing and reading what I want
Drop dead fatty, you are the bitter old queen in question. It's a make believe book about elves and it's good if he likes it.
4 months ago
Anonymous
I'm not saying the books are bad, moron.
I'm saying anon is a fricking n00b here if THAT is the most "based" comment he's seen on this board.
moronic mouth-breather.
4 months ago
Anonymous
No there should be more pushback on morons appealing to some kind of ephemeral authenticity. Back into your oildrum thanks.
4 months ago
Anonymous
>ephemeral authenticity.
You don't even know what you're saying zoomer. Just typing big words because you think it makes you intellectual, what a homosexual.
4 months ago
Anonymous
Can you shut the frick up while grown ups are speaking?
4 months ago
Anonymous
Kek. Tell me you suck wiener without telling me you suck wiener.
>something to do with demons lol, iirc protagonists joined to army at the start
Serpentwar saga by Raymond E. Feist? >The prologue introduces the Saaur, warm-blooded humanoid reptiles, whose world is being overrun by demons from the Fifth Circle of Hell. >[Protagonists] can only hope to gain freedom in exchange for service to the crown on an extremely dangerous mission. >They are taken to a training camp where they are quickly trained as soldiers.
>Bad guys are tired of losing to the good guys every book
>Bad guys decide that in order to win, they should be more like the good guys, being honourable and shit
Wouldn’t that just turn them into good guys? It didn’t make sense the Knights of Takhisis would be loyal to her when their behaviour would be the opposite of what their goddess stands for.
my gm has decided to reenact the plot of the books in game (with our oc characters instead of the book ones). I never read the books or know much about them, why does tg hate them?
I'd bet most people don't actually hate them all that much. The reason people are shitting on them in this thread is because they honestly are kinda mediocre books, but most of these people (including me) read them when they were kids and didn't have the same kinds of standards and exposure and liked them. I still remember enjoying them as a kid and the fact that I can still remember so much of the plot and characters after so long is a testament to the fact that the books did leave a genuine impression on me. And I'm not enough of a grognard yet to turn my back on the things I enjoyed as a kid just because they were bad.
They do have some historical value though. They had a big impact back in the day, and affected the development of the scene and the game itself. They're fantasy schlock, but they're one of the earliest kinds of uniquely DnD style of fantasy schlock. The Forgotten Realms may get a bunch of focus as the official "default" DnD setting, but if I had to point to the archetypical example of what the "standard" DnD fantasy world is, I'd choose Krynn, not Faerun, because the thing that pops into my head whenever someone mentions a "generic" fantasy world is closer to Dragonlance than any other official setting.
I came to Dragonlance by my teens, and by that point I'd read a lot of Forgotten Realms. My friends teased me at the time for enjoying Dragonlance, and my moronic teen defense of Dragonlance was that the characters in Dragonlance were "more realistic" because the Heroes of the Lance (or whatever the gang in the Dragons of [Season] trilogy were called . . . maybe Companions?) didn't solve their problems by whipping out dual scimitars and killing everything in sight or blowing everything up with fireballs.
Dragonlance was the turning point of D&D moving away from Conan style "adventures of guys kicking down the doors to dangerous lairs to get loot", towards "a group of heroes go on a grand quest to save the world".
Fricking hell man, that's a low blow.
To which fangroup?
i only read the first one as a 90s kid, and a weird spin off book that was pretty cool about a giant forest world that had fizban in it but his name was nazbif of something.
They seemed ok. I think that hating big multi author settings of fantasy books is just done by contrarian-kun because the a lot of anons seem to think that the less fun they are having the better their opinions are.
I'm sure some of Dragonlance and forgotten realms is great, and some is dog shit.
You can only read Dune and the Silmarillion so many times if you are actually an active reader. Books made to be fun and entertaining instead of heavy historical treatises is acceptable.
Should be a bit of both. I read pulp and then I read actual literature, fiction and non fiction, comic books and Penguin Classics. It has enriched my otherwise miserable lot no end
>a weird spin off book that was pretty cool about a giant forest world that had fizban in it but his name was nazbif of something.
Elven Star, second book of the Deathgate Cycle, by the same authors but unrelated to Dragonlance. Also, Zifnab.
I remember that book had a hot elf chick who dressed in her brother's adventuring clothes and was about to burst out of them because thicc.
that's the one. didn't read the whole series, but it was pretty neat as a stand alone book.
deathgate was kino when I was a kid, the third(?) one where he goes to the elemantal plane of earth and finds a dying civillisation running on "totally not evil" necromancy and it ends with the dead taking over in basically a zombie apocalypse was kino.
I wouldn't go that far. Mostly because there's much fewer of them.
That said, shit they suck. I decided to read them last year during deployment and they were an absolute slog. I fricking hated these books. The only characters I liked were Raistlin and--of all people -- Tasslehoff because they were the only characters who had any kind of external drive. Everyone else was either a self-loathing loser or a moralist busybody. Finding out Margaret Weiss is a Mormon made Goldmoon make a lot more sense to me.
But at the end of the day I think the books had minimal impact other than being one of many inspirations on Chris Metzen and Warcraft. Iirc he said Sturm Brightblade had a major impact on him.
>Iirc he said Sturm Brightblade had a major impact on him.
>Dragon Lance character had an impact on him.
What the frick happened? Did the book fall off the top shelf or something?
He was in high school when he read it. You know, the same age most of us were when we read crap like Eragon or BL.
The real tragedy is that he clearly felt that literary fiction had peaked in Dragonlance, so he quit reading alltogether.
Here's a big secret: Kerrigan is Kitiara but she gets a redemption arc because young Metzen felt bad about her BAD END in Legends.
She got a DBZ tourney arc, where she beats up people until they become her friends.
No wonder SC2 was such shit. SC1 and Brood War had a whole different feel.
Mormons. Not even once.
>I was more of an Eddings guy.
>I kind of liked the Keys to Paradise too, for the slop that it was. Kind of liked the idea of the trans as a "kind of" enemy faction, if only for the fairy tale vibe of evil queen turning everyone into animals as a final frick you.
>>>
> Anonymous 01/29/24(Mon)04:20:25 No.91728347▶
Why was Kitiara described as this hot chick?
She looked like an 80s closet lesbo in the cover art.
Autistic answer: the text and the cover are not co-dependant when created. Also, the covers of the Chronicles books I read had her helmet on so I never mentally associated her with 80's hair and imagined she was hotter.
Back then the cover artists basically did whatever the frick they wanted and the author just kind of had to deal with it. There's loads of examples out there of cover art from that time period that doesn't match the plot or even the tone of the book.
Authors back then usually realized that the cover sold the book, and if they forgot they got reminded real quick after their new novel with the cover they insisted on changing sold like shit.
That's hardly an excuse. If you're going to do something, do it right. A cover that doesn't accurately reflect the book is actionable false advertising.
>A cover that doesn't accurately reflect the book is actionable false advertising.
In what fricking court?
>reading Eragon in highschool
I sometimes forget how young the userbase of this website has become.
Eragon was first published in 2002 and got popular in 2003. If a person read Eragon in high school in 2003, then they would be, at the youngest, 35, and more likely 36-39. And that's only if they read it as soon as it came out: it was still on the bestsellers list in 2005, so they could be as old as 41.
Does that seem young to you?
No, I just messed up how time works. For some reason I imagined myself reading Eragon in highschool and thought "but I read that book in third grade, it came out way earlier".
Suffice to say, I'm moronic.
Its possible, nay probable; you saw Star Wars in 3rd grade and conflated it with Eragon which was basically Star Wars/Jeremy Thatcher, Dragon Hatcher and that one fantasy setting where the series gets it's magic system from.
No, I know exactly at what age I read the individual Eragon books. I just completely fricked up the "reading Eragon in highschool" part because my brain interpreted these words as "Anon read the first Eragon book when I was highschool age". Anon obviously read it when he was highschool age.
I read Eragon in 4th grade and I'm turning 26 soon.
I read Eragon in Elementary school in 2012.
>Eragon
*Ardwen - Arwen
*Isenstar - Isengard
*Mithrim - Mithrim or mithril
*Angrenost - Angrenost
*Morgothal - Morgoth
*Elessari - Elessar
*Furnost - Fornost
*Hadarac - Harad
*Melian - Melian
*Vanilor - Valinor
*Eridor - Eriador
*Imiladris - Imladris
*Undin - Fundin/Udun
*Gil'ead - Gil'Galad
*Ceranthor - Caranthir
*Isidar - Isildir
*Oromis - Orome
*Eragon - Aragorn
Probably a coincidence.
>*melian - melian
I didn't realize how much Christopher Paolini lifted from Tolkein. I knew that Paolini liked Tolkein...
I loved the first Eragon book. Dragonriders are cool.
The Second one was pretty good, but I wasn't a fan of the vegetarianism.
The third was a slog and the fourth I didn't even bother with.
>lifted from Tolkein
>laughs in Shannara
To be fair, it's only the first book that does that. Afterwards, it really takes off on it's own.
Shanarra RTVRNED to US tradition and aligned itself with Vance rather than some random Brit who can't write a straight paragraph, yes.
>I didn't realize how much Christopher Paolini lifted from Tolkein.
Bruh it's Star Wars by way of The Lord of the Rings. It could not be more derivative. And don't anyone give me any of that shit about Tortellini being 15 when he wrote it either that's a lie. He was 15 when he "imagined" the story, he wrote it between the ages of 18 and 19. Then instead of leaving it on fanfiction.net where it belongs his wealthy and doting parents self-published their autistic sprog's literary abortion and helped him promote it until it was popular enough to be picked up by a real publisher.
>he wrote it between the ages of 18 and 19
To be fair an 18yo isn't all that more intellectually mature than a 15yo.
People start coming out of puberty at age 16, at least.
I had enough self-awareness at 15 to know I shouldn't write fanfiction of the things I liked + my basic political beliefs.
>Mostly because there's much fewer of them.
If you include the tie in stuff by the other authors I’m pretty sure it’s more than HH.
>Iirc he said Sturm Brightblade had a major impact on him.
I can see that, considering every human male in all of Warcraft behaves like Sturm.
Tirion Fordring was basically just a less melancholy Sturm.
>The most popular D&D books ever made had minimal impact
>t.moronic E3 zoomzoom
Hope you had a good time unclogging latrines in Kuwait or Oki
>zoomzoom
Millennial but whatever gramps. I thought you Xers were all dead from pot overdose by now.
For all their popularity I sure don't see their impact nowadays. Dragonlance is effectively dead. I can't think of any of the people I've played D&D with over the past decade who would know what I'm talking about if I brought up Tanis Halfelven or Goldmoon or the Knights of Solamnia. I feel like Lord Soth is the only thing anyone actually remembers from DL.
Soth is known because his bucket+scarf-combo is visually striking. Folks don't know where the bucket's from, in any case.
His "I would frick you if I wasn't dead" vibes with Kitiara were great.
Iirc he was also a major character in Ravenloft, which had more longevity as a setting even if that means it's just been absorbed into the FR mushpot.
No other character enjoyed his popularity. Tika and Kitiara exist only in the spank banks of nerds from the 80s.
I've got his standalone novel (lying around, somewhere), which details his backstory, how he became a deathknight, and how he ends up in Ravenloft.
It's pretty fun.
>For all their popularity I sure don't see their impact nowadays.
>Book written 40 years ago is somehow not well known by people under the age of 40
truly a mystery
I remember Kender, and as an adult learning that the authors were Mormons and the whole thing was one big Mormon fantasy fanfiction. Also apparently the Gully Dwarves are the authors being racist towards Appalachian people.
The book series is effectively dead, but they were the first major hit in the genre of rpg inspired paperbacks that paved the way for things like Black Library. Also, the modules were some of the first to push world altering metaplots rather than somewhat more contained results. Their impact appears limited because they altered the industry to such an extent that it no longer appears impressive.
>I feel like Lord Soth is the only thing anyone actually remembers from DL.
That's because Lord Soth was one of the best parts of Dragonlance. He is loads more compelling as a character than the actual villain and even a lot of the heroes.
Takhisis is a generic evil b***h, Kitara is a generic evil b***h in miniature. Soth is doomed to be a ghost forever because he was an butthole who had a chance to genuinely prevent the apocalypse and redeem himself in the process but let his fear and doubts rule him and turned his back on a literal god given mission to save the world. He's tragic because he meant well and was tricked into doing so, but he's still a dick because the deception only worked by appealing to his selfishness and jealousy.
>none of my friends talk about Neuromancer, so obviously it didn't have any lasting impact
I never know whether people like you are more pitiable or amusing. I do know that you're moronic.
>Everyone else was either a self-loathing loser or a moralist busybody
this is in 90% of the genre
To be fair Sturm is one of the better characters, which isn't necessarily saying much considering his competition but still. He's no Raistlin or Lord Soth but when he's not wallowing in guilt and takes an active role in the plot he's actually engaging and he does eventually manage to mostly unfrick himself and die a noble death befitting a knight in the end. His arc is basic and the execution is kind of mediocre, but it's still superior to characters like Tanis Half-Elven or Goldmoon.
All in all I'd put him up there with Caramon post Twins trilogy. An actually halfway decent character with a smattering of genuine pathos, which by default puts him leagues above the vast majority of characters in the books.
Tanis is probably the worst character in the books.
>Gee Tanis, how come your mom lets you have TWO sexy girlfriends?
And he does nothing but cry about it.
To be fair one of those sexy girlfriends does try to kill him multiple times. On the other hand you'd think after like, the third murder attempt he'd come to the conclusion that Kitara is a huge c**t who isn't worth giving the time of day much less sleeping with and just go with Laurana already. But he spends basically the entire trilogy whining about it whenever he gets the chance.
Anyone who likes Raistlin is an autistic virgin who will never have offspring.
I bet you have a blue mana symbol pin on something you own.
He has a JO crystal, I know because mine glowed when he posted so BTFO
The novels are just a retelling of someone's campaign, and Raistlin's player was obviously one of those homosexuals who is always saying shit that sounds profound to 14 year olds like "he's the perfect sociopath" and acting like his wizard/sorceror/thief/assassin isn't really part of the group just traveling with these people.
Raistlin was the truest wizard in Krynn, in the annotated version of one book the authors note he has to resist sexual passions to preserve his power. That's how he surpassed the other magic-users.
Wild. I thought it was some weird time travel bullshit where he absorbed the power of a pre-Cataclysm necromancer.
that was in the based Twins Trilogy. he fisted Fistandantilus, when said black robe tried to eat his soul.
I'm not saying i dislike raistlyn because he was celebate. i dislike him because he's the most cringe evil PC power fantasy that was played out the first time it happened. volcel chads are based, but raistlyn is literally a bad person and people who like him are all invariably lonely losers who are either incels or have a 700 pound dependapotamus who think because they obsess over rpgs, tcgs or wargames that 'he's just like me'. his powers and personality are dumb af, all of Dragonlance is literally just a raistlyn wank fest as he ascends to literal godhood.
OHH RAISTLYN I KNOW YOU ARE MEAN AND WIERD AND UGLY BUT WE STILL HAVE TO DO WHATEVER YOU WANT BECAUSE YOU NEED TO SAVE THE WORLD. PLEASE SAVE THE WORLD RAISTLYN YOU ARE SO MUCH SMARTER AND BETTER THEN ME AND I'M SORRY I BULLIED YOU IN HIGH SCHOOL ITS OKAY IF YOU FRICK MY WIFE.
Thats literally a summery of the first like 8 Dragonlance books.
I liked him because he was yellow
yellow is cool
I like Raistlin BECAUSE he's so autistically dedicated to being a bad person. He starts out an understandably bitter and disillusioned man but almost every single time Raistlin is offered the chance to be a decent person or do something good you can see him genuinely consider it, seriously weigh the pros and cons of his decision, and then deliberately choose to be a dick. This happens more and more as time goes on until he ends the original trilogy having actively chosen to be a worse person than he was at the start.
Then in the Twins trilogy he fricking doubles down on it and practically bases his whole plan on sacrificing everything and everyone that matters to him in the name of power. And the thing is he actually kind of struggles with it. He almost abandons his plan more than once. He has to actually work at giving up his humanity, and he's so single minded and focused on his plan that he never stops to question whether maybe this isn't as good an idea as he thought it way. He's so dedicated that his brother has to use LITERAL TIME TRAVEL to prove to him that his plan is a terrible idea that's going to destroy everything.
Raistlin a very smart man so consumed by bitterness that he doesn't realize everything he does is ultimately self-defeating until the very end, and I think that's an entertaining character to watch.
That he chooses to sacrifice all his goals in the end and willingly become prisoner to Takhisis is the ultimate redemption, there is no difference to his situation either way, he could've decided to just frick everyone and everything in a nuclear option, but he chose the bitter end that was only bitter for himself because the sacrifice of everyone and everything was not worth it, he does value all who are close to him and the world, but until the result was revealed to him he genuinely believed he could do better as master of all, make a better world and rule it as a better god. When proven wrong he gives up all he had worked for to preserve everything else, then goes on to help his nephew even through his divinely imposed suffering.
Getting eternally pegged by Takhisis isn't really a "bad end", anon.
homosexual, Raistlin was flayed and worse over and over, a fate meant to be eternal.
Right, because Raistlin always had the potential to be a decent person and not an butthole. Well, not an evil butthole at least. His descent into villainy was entirely avoidable. He just repeatedly chose not to do so out of arrogance and bitterness until he finally realized that being an evil butthole had left him with absolutely nothing of value and managed to pull the plug on his whole operation at the literal last second before it blew up in everyone's face.
The best praise that can be said about him is that even after everything he did to get to the point of being legitimately able to challenge a god he was still willing to throw the whole thing away in a second when presented with compelling enough evidence.
>repeatedly chose not to do so out of arrogance and bitterness
Incredibly shallow take, he had a goal and was constantly calculating exactly what that goal required to be achieved, he was kind when it did not interfere with his end-game, like with the gully dwarves.
Only upon seeing that axhievment of his goal was futile to his desired ends did he give up pursuit of it, and then even though he had to do so at the point which would turn out as bad for him as it could possibly get.
There is a reason he was given the red robes, he was never good or evil, he was neutral. His "descent to evil" was not him becoming evil, it was performing a necessary step to achieve his calculated end.
>There is a reason he was given the red robes, he was never good or evil, he was neutral
Yes, he was neutral; at the start of the story, when he still has the red robes. He literally abandons them for the black by the end and does so in a way that pisses off even the other wizards because lied to/didn't tell them. He very much stops being neutral, he himself admits this.
Raistlin does do good things, he is capable of sympathy and kindness, and being a decent, if acerbic, person. He willingly suppresses that most of the time in the name of his own arrogant belief that he should be in charge because he can do better than everyone else. Being kind when it's convenient for him and doesn't interfere with his plans doesn't make him a kind person when said plans involve instigating a war, betraying his friends, and sacrificing innocent people.
What reason did Raistlin have to believe that he would do a better job as god aside from being the most powerful wizard to ever live? Remember in the bad future he doesn't just kill her and take her place as head evil god he uses her stolen power to bootstrap himself into trying to take over the rest of the pantheon.
Calculating the exact amount of atrocities you have to commit in order to accomplish your goal doesn't excuse from having willing committed atrocities in pursuit of that goal.
Calculating the exact amount of atrocities you have to commit in order to accomplish your goal doesn't excuse from having willing committed atrocities in pursuit if
>when said plans involve instigating a war, betraying his friends, and sacrificing innocent people.
Only because he intends to do a better job of fairly and competently ruling existence in the end, these are all things he honestly believes he can undo and make right when he fulfills his goal.
The moment he realizes he is wrong, he makes the ultimate sacrifice to prevent further damage by his mistaken path.
He is not evil.
Isn't that like that one guy from Wakfu?
How should I know? I'm ITT for Dragonlance.
>Only because he intends to do a better job of fairly and competently ruling existence in the end, these are all things he honestly believes he can undo and make right when he fulfills his goal.
Cool motive, still murder. I don't recall the gods having been shown to be able to resurrect the dead, much less do so at the scale you're talking about considering he's responsible for hundreds of deaths at minimum that happened thousands of years in the past. Those people are gone and not coming back.
Why does he think he is capable of doing a better job of ruling existence than anyone else or any of the existing gods anyway? What makes him better qualified than any other random tyrant or megalomaniac? Claiming that his ends justify the means only works if his end wasn't already an expression of arrogance and a desire for power and control. So he had good intentions, so what? The road to hell is paved with good intentions. Good intentions alone don't prevent you from being a bad person.
>This happens more and more as time goes on until he ends the original trilogy having actively chosen to be a worse person than he was at the start.
The Mormon Hero's Journey.
I don't hate Dragonlance, I hate his fans. That was a passionate and big cringe take on the character. If you model yourself, or your RP, off of Raistlyn UR CRINGE. Both because it attracts THAT GUY so incredibly consistently and also because likely you will do it way worse than the authors of DL. Raistlyn was a cleaned up novel character with a defined character arc, your evil PC is just gonna piss everyone off at the table most likely. And that character only works with a bunch of loving friends and family as a foil for the reasons you mentioned.
Oh absolutely, Raistlin is a good character but a terrible PC. In fact he would have stopped being a PC around the time he abandoned the rest of the party to die while he teleported away with the super powerful magic artifact. That's the kind of thing that gets a character retired and turned into an NPC.
You could play a Raistlin like character and make it work in a game, but you'd have to walk a very fine line to avoid being That Guy, and you'd almost by necessity end up with a very different character arc since you presumably don't want your PC to betray the party and then dip off halfway through the campaign, and your fellow players are much more willing to just write your PC off as not worth the trouble if he continually refuses to play ball and screw them over compared to the characters in the novel.
I haven't read these books since high school. But even then they were quite meh.
As said, the characters are just kinda... you didn't really care. Concur on Raistlin but not on Tasslehoff, the character I remember liking best was Kitiara, but that may have been because I was a horny little beast in school.
Even when I was reading them at that age I can remember thinking that LOTR blew them out the water.
>But at the end of the day I think the books had minimal impact other than being one of many inspirations on Chris Metzen and Warcraft.
lol
Dragonlance and the module adapted for it are responsible for the death of the original D&D playstyle and the cancerous proliferation of storyhomosexualry
This may surprise you but fantasy stories preceded D&D. Dragonlance was a huge success and its kind of surprising that the thread is unclear that the dragonlance campaign and modules were hugely popular, much loved and preceded the books. Everything is so spiteful and tearing everything down constantly with you morons these days. You can't just say, yeah, that was nice. Dragonlance was nice, the books were fun pulp fiction and there were lots of competing trilogies and authors. A good time was had by all. The original two dragonlance trilogies are perfect books for teens.
>The original two dragonlance trilogies are perfect books for teens.
I read these books starting when I was 7, my grandmother got me one for birthday, christmas and easter presents. I was onto The Black Company by 12.
No one with any sense cares about what other people do with their games. Play your table how you want, and stop shitting your diaper over things that don't affect you.
They're a warcrime, if only for introducing kenders.
Second only to Malkavians in annoyance factor.
Imagine a kender infected with Malkavian strain vampirism.
Finally, I have it: the secret weapon my evil wizard npc shall unsleash against the world.
There's evil and then there's EVIL. That's the sort of thing the forces of the abyss and hells would unite over to stop.
Kenders are based. I have run two Kenders, one called Kender Loggins and another called Jar Jar Binx.
The Dragolance Chronicles were decent for what they were (derivative 80s fantasy) and had unironically cool characters, worldbuilding, set up pieces and locations when it wasn't doing a mormon version of LOTR with teenager titillation.
Almost all other DL books are trash and the TTRPGs were mediocre, sadly.
Also I loved draconians as the basic baddies over the endless variants of orcs/globins in other settings.
Doom Brigade was the only dragonlance novel I actually enjoyed between the villain protagonists just wanting to survive and the dwarves being entertaining idiots.
>Don't kill him! He could be the beer maker.
Dwarfs act like it is just a fun game of paint ball.
Fricking love Dragonlance, read em when I was a lad. Bums me out they never finished the series.
"What Do You Mean We're Lost?"
Can anyone more articulate than me explain the Mormon angle to DL and why Mormon influence in fantasy books is always so obvious? Other than Goldmoon nosing into Caramon's personal life to give him a sex before marriage lecture.
I don't know why but there's something about Mormon fantasy writers that sticks out. But it's not so easy to actually explain what it is that they keep doing. All I know is it's lame.
The big, obvious one is the Golden Plates that John Smith 'discovered' and managed to translate by putting them in his hat by Divine Providence and this new truth being the basis for real religion and Mormonism is pretty much the exact thing that Goldmoon using the Silver Discs to bring back real religion and the true gods to Krynn.
The Priest King causing the Cataclysm probably has a parallel somewhere since he's obviously the Pope. Goldmoon being a white Native American has something to do with Mormonism somehow because Mormonism is weird about them and black people. Maybe someone who knows more about Mormonism can explain more.
Mormons think native americans are descended from ancient Israelites who built barrel-like boats and sailed there. They're brown because they were cursed due to their ancestors not following Jesus like the other Israeli group that sailed there (and got genocided) but Mormons think they're still Israelites and should be befriended and converted, making them one of the more Native-friendly groups in America. African blacks on the other hand have the curse of Ham and weren't allowed initiation into the church until the 70's, Brigham Young used to teach sex with them was punishable by death..
Can't believe I never picked up on the Silver Discs thing. That's straight up fan fiction tier
>The big, obvious one is the Golden Plates that John Smith 'discovered' and managed to translate by putting them in his hat by Divine Providence and this new truth being the basis for real religion and Mormonism is pretty much the exact thing that Goldmoon using the Silver Discs to bring back real religion and the true gods to Krynn.
Am I moronic? I didn't even notice
Cataclysm's = The Fall from Eden
Priest King = Anti-Christ
In Mormon belief, before God made physical bodies for man, he had a meeting with his top dudes about whether man should be slaves who could only do what we're told or have free will at the risk of rebellion . Jesus advocated for Free Will while Lucifer said we should be mindless drones. Human souls joined in the resulting war. Those who sided against Jesus (who God chose) were cursed to have black bodies. Those who sided with Jesus were blessed with blonde hair and blue eyes.
Jimmy Carter threatened to remove the LDS' tax-emempt status if they didn't accept blacks blacks. Their Elder prophesied God had given him a vision they should allow blacks in their congregation.
As to the Native American thing, I think it's that Mormons believe history's very altered/mistaken, with North America being the real site of Ancient Israel -not Palestine.
Man I ate these things when I was in highschool.
Same, Still have the chronicles combination book.
I was more of an Eddings guy.
I kind of liked the Keys to Paradise too, for the slop that it was. Kind of liked the idea of the trans as a "kind of" enemy faction, if only for the fairy tale vibe of evil queen turning everyone into animals as a final frick you.
I fricking loved David Eddings, shame he abused the shit out of his kids and they were taken away. Spoiled it for me.
Same with that other broad who did the Mists of Avalon, her and her husband were evil if their daughter is to be believed. Aasimov also very handsy. Arthur c Clarke a boy enthusiast. Kind of headtbreaking.
Please don't tell me Harry Turtledove is an arsehole.
Turtle dove originally wrote great stuff about Byzantium that felt as real as possible - and even if didn’t sell he churned out alt-WWII schlop.
Raistlin was based
When he went full black robes that was epic
Pfft, edgy mcedgelord guy going full ebil? This was a shock to who? Even when they were first released, it wasn't a shock to anyone.
I love that the stupid 'embrace tradition' meme kept acting like the Heroes of the Lance were somehow less 'Precious OCs' then the Mighty Nine (I don't care enough to spell it right).
Caleb Widogast wishes he could be as much of an edgelord as Raistlin.
Battletech novels.
Gen X here. I wanted to like them in high school, but I didn't. The Stand unabridged was less of a pointless slog than Dragonlance.
The original trilogy was surprisingly not as great as I thought it would be, considering how popular it was.
The sequel trilogy - the Twins trilogy - was much better written, though I think someone needs to read the original trilogy to care more about the characters still in the Twins trilogy.
When did the irda appear in the novels? I mean, the first ever Dragonlance campaign setting all the way back in 1e decided that irda and minotaurs were important enough to the setting they needed PC writeups.
Dragons of Summer Flame or the Second Generation, one of these but i can't remember.
Actual Generation X dude here.
They were always caca. So yeah OP, that is a pretty apt comparison.
First off, the primary audience was Gen X/early Millennials rather than their Boomer parents.
Second, No, because it was an attempt at a new IP rather than an attempt to de-mythologize setting backstory. During the time they were published there was a sense of "what happens next?" rather than "what event/character are they going to mess up next?"
This is yuge actually, I love keeping the settings moving. I like Mystara, Forgotten Realms AND Krynn. First and last especially
>Are apples just oranges?
I read the first book in highschool and I liked it. Then a few years later I tried to read the second book and I dropped it after the fist chapters because it felt too infantile for me. I don't know if my taste changed so much in the spare of these couple years or was the first book really so much better than the second one.
I liked it, they were my second books of fantasy than I read after the Hobbit, LotR and Eddings (than I started the second series of the belgariath becasue the library lady didn't know shit about fantasy).
They aren't high brow literatrue, but they were entertaining and had lots of iconic characters. I know kenders are a bane, but I loved the gully dwarfs, the other dwarfs and they machinations, the different characters (Flitn T.T) and of course Sturm and Raistlin. Fricking hell that series made me cry three times (two be teh Dragolances main, another in one of the many and unecesary other books).
Tasslehoff worked fine as an individual character, and was even endearing. The problem is that his behavior simply doesn’t make sense scaled up to an entire species.
Thing is, it was written that how he acted was typical kender behavior. There was no way people weren't gonna act just like that. It was a cart blanch for "It's what my character would do!" type bs. Pure cancer.
Yep, and that’s what killed it. If they’d been normal halflings, but he in particular happened to act that way, he’d have just been a quirky character instead of the face of a blight on the hobby.
the cover art and some of the art in general was so good that it tricked people and elevated the novels. The books were simple and strangely fun but not good books, like a peculiar fast food meal. Junk food with fine wrapping.
Why boomers? I was born in 1995 and read it at school.
Because zoomers are dipshits who call anyone older than them boomers.
turkish early millenials loved that shit.
Dragonlance was the only fantasy novel translated to turkish besides Lord of the Rings (and with one year of difference I recall) and remained so into early 2000s. No Discworld, no other TSR novels, no Wheel of Time, nothing. Nothing but lotr and dragonlance.
You can watch the moronic fan trailer made in early 2000s on youtube
Translation shenanigans are always fascinating to me; it's an randomizer to cultural influence
>that trailer
I fricking hate Dragonlance, but I fricking love this.
What struck me is how incompetent the Heroes are. They sort of blunder into success. Like, the only guy who knew what he was doing was Major Raisin.
Also they're amusingly horny, like Tanis getting a stiffy when now-legal Laurana's nubile Elven body is pressed against his own, Silvanna's shower (complete with nippley silhouette) and Gilanthas' rather embarrassing seduction of her, and Tanis taking time off from an infiltration to bang Kitara for a week.
Also Legends had Raisin really, really want to bang Crystannia, but was afraid he'd lose his sigma male powers if he did. Or the scene where the Dark Queen (in her form as Dark Temptress) gives him a lapdance all night, making him wake up all sweaty, sticky and with confusing feelings.
Didn't Huma frick a female dragon too?
>oh noes heterosexual desire
What a shame for young adult fiction. It was wholesome by comparison to today's nonsense
Krynn is the hill I die on. It's a cheesy as frick thing but it was made with love and is devoid of cynicism. It's a hardcore heavy metal fan who loves his mum.
Wasn't Laurana technically underage in the first trilogy? Swear her father commented on her not being of age at some point
Elven "of age" is human "spinster"
Well yeah, but given that the two races develop at different rates, still seems relevant
>Wasn't Laurana technically underage in the first trilogy?
What difference is that supposed to make? The younger they are, the longer you can keep them enslaved to your wiener.
Hey anon I've got a book rec for you:
Tara of the Twilight by Lin Carter. Thank me later.
>book review
>"Infamous reputations are sometimes deserved. Such a case is "Tara Of The Twilight." Lin Carter is a capable writer but you have to be in the right mood for this book. If you are looking for an erotic sword and sorcery novel with such charming elements as pedophilia, rape, and general perversion, this is the book for you. I wonder what the fact that I enjoyed it so thoroughly says about me?"
Thanks, anon!
>Tara of the Twilight by Lin Carter
Got a PDF or epub? I can't find it on any pirate site.
Yes, insofar as it contains many soap opera elements and allegories about the power of faith and relationships, but no insofar as it's way more engaging and wholesome than whatever filth is leaking out of GWs hatch this week.
A lot of franchises have been ruined by new owners and writers who give 0 shits about what went before. To the contrary, most "creators" nowadays seem actively hostile to the source material they are supposedly improving, wanting to improve on it or add to it "their own" ideas which are indistinguishably identical copies of what a Larry Fink type raised them to believe.
HH was a fundamental mistake as it took what was meant to be a speculated-on mythology and made it a retconned official canon with pointless minutia for nerds.
they had the novelty of being the first official TSR books that reflected an actual game campaign, which is the major reason they have their place in history. HH really is a different animal at a different time.
Then you had all the wannabes who thought they were gonna write their next campaign into a series of 'epic books!1!1!" and got mad when players would derail and circumvent their story lines. Yes I had a DM like that. Yes DL was his favorite set of books and yes we wrecked each and every one of his campaigns by simply pointing out the glaringly obvious flaws.
You're giving me ptsd from the time i played at my lgs in '96-2000.
Sorry anon. I know the pain. That it wasn't a singular event is what makes it worse.
Now all the idiots want to be the next Vox Mac. *puke*
Dragonlance is worse than HH. And, yes, HH is a pretty low bar to beat.
No, because there weren't 70+ of them.
Now, actually playing all 14 modules, now that's a giant pain in the ass up there with reading the whole Heresy series.
>No, because there weren't 70+ of them.
There were something like 150+ fiction DL novels published.
I've been meaning to read the Dragonlance novels since I enjoy the smut fics of Laurana being treated as a cumdump.
>I enjoy the smut fics of Laurana being treated as a cumdump.
They aren't even smutfics. She's a cum dump already. Look how she's dressed. You know she wants it.
>Look how she's dressed. You know she wants it.
Damn no wonder she breaks so easily in a lot of the fics.
Any good ones?
>Laurana
WRONG! It's Lauralanthalasa, moron.
The weird ass Balanced Good-Evil cosmology was always the most annoying part for me. The only way the Hickmans made it work is by decoupling D&D's concept of 'Good' from any ethical standards and making it another flavour of Evil, because too much Good means slavery, I guess.
It's sort of tongue in cheek but ultimately makes sense: in order to have free will you obviously need a choice of sort. The ultimate destruction of evil comes with the destruction of the dichotomy good vs evil that makes good (or evil) existing in the first place.
This is why authors like Poul Anderson and Michael Moorwiener made the dichotomy one of Law vs. Chaos. That way, you can have chaotic guys who are good people, and lawful guys who are shitc**ts. Never mind that idiots often turn this back into Good vs. Evil without any nuance, especially in the TTRPG hobby.
yeah, I couldn't accept the setting due to that either. If it was law chaos sure but good being evil because there's too much good just sounds dumb.
If Takhisis and Tiamat are the same, why doesn't Tiamat take a metal haired babe form to have sex with mortals?
Because black dragon dick is better than any ordinary mortal. Once you go black, after all...
Tiamat does apparently have a seductive humanoid form that she takes on occasion
>If Takhisis and Tiamat are the same
They weren't the same, so there's you're "if" done with for the past. As for why she doesn't now, generally poor setting? too much wokeness? Even in 4e she was assuming human female form.
People say 4e's Draconomicon equates Takhisis with Tiamat but when I read that I only saw Takhisis mentioned once in passing and it didn't say anything like that.
It was only after Weis and Hickman and all the 1e and 2e era work that WotC decided in some way that they were the same. But, iirc, even then Takhisis was a greater god and Tiamat was a lesser god which would make them not the same. It was in 5e that they officially were announced to be the same.
Weis and Hickman say Takhisis and Paladine (TP) are not Tiamat and Bahamut (BT).
Grubb, who also worked on early DL, might think they are the same, but maybe not. I don't remember a tweet or interview or editorial where he conclusively says they are.
At the time of DL's initial development Grubb was running a campaign with three sets of 7 each gods for good, neutral and evil. This pantheon was mostly transplanted into DL. In his campaign B&T went by the names Draco Paladin and Draco Cerebus respectively. That looks a bit like they are the same but he doesn't say that T&P are B&T.
That the gods were the same in Grubb's campaign does not mean they were the same in DL despite their creative origin. Neither Fizban or Huma were from Grubb's campaign. Grubb says that Huma and Paladine were the same at the very start of DL's development but Hickman made Huma into a mortal and introduced Fizban very early on. They might have been sourced from Grubb but they weren't identical with Grubb's creations.
Weis and Hickman have been adamant about this and the only statements I am aware of by Grubb are what I've noted above, that they lifted his pantheon to DL and in his campaign the gods that became TP. He doesn't say that they are the same. (Though he might have said that elsewhere.)
*your
let's blame that on autocorrect
Dude, this is like saying Odin/Woden/Wotan are different gods.
If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck and quacks like a duck; it's a duck.
>Dude, this is like saying Odin/Woden/Wotan are different gods
That's not a good example as those names you mention are stem from phonological drift over centuries as geographically dispersed cultures changed the way they pronounced words. They're all from the same source and they clearly refer to the same imaginary entity.
Your analogy breaks down further because Odin did not have a design team deliberately take inspiration from a source and make changes to it over a few weeks and months to make it distinct and suit their game setting. When the core design team says "Takhisis was based on Draco Cerebus who was inspired by Tiamat (who was inspired by Tiamat from Mesopotamian mythology) but Takhisis is not Tiamat" then Takhisis is not Tiamat. It's not even a matter of Takhisis being derivative of Tiamat, there's no question that it is derivative, but derivative does not mean "is identical with".
Perkunos/Thor/Zeus then.
Same god.
Bahamut is paladine just like the silver discs are joseph mormons golden tablets.
>the silver discs are joseph mormons golden tablets
Again, inspired by does not mean identical with
It's not "inspired by it" it's a plagiaristic copy of it.
>Perkunos/Thor/Zeus then.
Also the same god lol (Indra).
Yeah I know they're the same, but that is no phonological drift, that's entirely different names with entirely different specifics to the entities beyond a couple of basic core concepts. Literally less common between those than Bahamut/Paladine and Tiamat/Takhisis.
You defeat your own argument.
>You defeat your own argument.
b***h I hadn't even been talking to you calm your ass down.
>hadn't even been talking to you
Yes you did, that's what (You)ing me is.
For me it’s Silvara.
Based. Maybe the Dragon Overlords would have been better received if they also strutted around in sexy humanoid forms sometimes.
... The Dragon Overlords ARE humanoids.
That's the Highlords, Overlords were giant dragons.
Frick, right, war of souls.
My bad.
Thank you Larry Elmore.
Clyde Caldwell does thighs better.
>Elmore makes better dragons, though
Legend of Huma was my favorite when I was younger since it appealed to my fantasy of fricki- riding a dragon.
Trying to reread the main trilogy was too painful since the start is full of tabletop-esque character exposition and gameplay mechanics written in. Some of the others are not too bad, just basic.
Oh shit i remember reading that book too but dont remember anything except for battles and some kniggits were acting like c**ts
>When you become a mage you have to decide if you want to be good, evil or neutral and wear colored clothing stating your team allegiance always
This will never not be stupid.
Having to choose a patron from one of the magic gods and wear their heraldry isn't that stupid an idea. What's stupid is the fact that the choices are framed solely as the good one, the neutral one, and the evil one. But this is Krynn so being moronic about "The Balance of Good and Evil" is par for the course.
Why isn’t there a neutral knightly order?
Takhisis breaks the robe rules and has her own wizards whenever she wants so there could plausibly be LE and NE wizard orders at the same time.
Born in 81 here and, kind of
The original 2 trilogies, plus the ones by Knaak are good, as are the ones about Kang and the boys. A lot of the rest was just for the money, and it shows. Still, DL is one of my favorite settings
>the ones by Knaak
Shit, he wrote for Dragonlance? Actually, that makes a lot of sense
before the LotR movies, only gigalosers were into fantasy. like, really really socially dead people.
>before the LotR movies, only gigalosers were into fantasy. like, really really socially dead people.
I always loved fantasy. The hobbit was the first book I finished, bedtime sorties were narnia, I loved paint figures and playing OG D&D I read all of these series as a teenager as I was in a military school environment where speaking was forbidden for very very very long sessions where you just had to sit and learn or read. I'm a twice decorated combat veteran and sports ball medals winner and have been very financially successful (I have more money than I could ever spend), I have friends all over the world and am published author and have partied hard with the rich and famous and seen things tragic and beautiful you can't even imagine. I have been very lucky and my adult children are well balanced STEM graduates and I have a beautiful wife. You should probably have read more fantasy as a child.
>I always loved fantasy. The hobbit was the first book I finished, bedtime sorties were narnia, I loved paint figures and playing OG D&D I read all of these series as a teenager
fukken loser lmao
>fukken loser lmao
I am fairly certain that you are projecting there. There are undoubtedly many many people more accomplished than I and I have met quite a few and most of those enjoyed fantasy literature too. Sneering at people who enjoy fantasy literature or science fiction just makes you seem rather squalid. The fact you think a child should NOT like reading the Hobbit is very strange unless you are just an insecure underage teen.
Don't @ me you nerd. I pound nerds like you.
Well, well, well. An internet tough guy. Didn't you all die of cringe poisoning?
What the frick did you just fricking say about me, you little b***h?
Wasn’t the prequel about Tanis half Elven mom borderline rape erotica?
It was NTR rape erotica, to be exact.
Shit, now I've suddenly been reminded of another book that margaret weis wrote, which after searching for a moment I've found was called mistress of dragons, where there was a lengthy and detailed scene involving a dragon raping a woman.
Excerpt?
Not something I have on hand, sorry.
I'm a millennial who grew up reading dragonlance and I've never read any horus heresy (which I think is warhammer stuff?)
Dragons of a summer flame is the perfect natural conclusion to the story of dragonlance as a whole because the best possible thing for the inhabitants of krynn is for the gods to finally frick off forever (without throwing a tantrum and ruining everything first) and stop waging their absurdly petty proxy wars using the mortals.
I heard W&H are writing a new trilogy where they are apparently going for a timeline reset to Chronicles. Guess the War of the Lance never ended.
Is Sephiroth involved? That seems to be the things these days, he is behind all timeline resets.
Yeah, pretty much. If anything they were more coherent than HH
Original trilogy was great as a kid. Although I’m sure it will be terrible to read now.
The twins sequel trilogy; The first two books were meh with the boring time travel adventures. The final book was great though, since everybody was back in the present and it actually felt like a sequel to the first trilogy.
Second Generation and Dragons of the Summer Flame were complete dogshit. I read the tie in novels after that but my interest started waning when the alien dragons showed up in Krynn.
>Although I’m sure it will be terrible to read now.
Everything you read as a kid is. Unless you can go back and experience them again for the first time without knowledge of literary tropes and genre conventions, they will never and can never be as engaging when you've grown up.
>Everything you read as a kid is.
I read lotr as a kid and recently, and it's still just as great
LOTR doesn't count. Its legitimately so good that it will hold up. Same with 2 of the dune books (you know which two).
Eragon was incredibly nostalgic for me. As a book written by a 16 year old it was hugely appealing to me in middle school when it came out and I read it. I could see exactly why I liked it so much as a kid, its genuinely a great young adult novel because it's really written from a teen perspective.
And while the ending isn't great Eragons maturity comes more from the maturing of the author than Paolinos talent as a writer.
Can I read War of Souls straight after Dragons of Summer Flame?
Here’s your modern audience Dragonlance novels /tg/.
>white guy, black lady, yellow asian "man"
God I hate current year
>yellow asian "man"
>current year
He's been in the DL books since the start you fricking newbie.
Congratulations, you found the joke
weis and hickman need to be culturally enriched.
I dunno LOL, they got pretty enriched after winning their lawlsuit vs Ha$bot.
That's not what that means zoomer.
Do yourself a favor and read the Soulforge. Not the book of the same name, no, oh no no no, the old gamebook. It is likely to be the best written book of Dragonlance, it gives a better hindsight on Raistlin than the first three books ever did, it is all about the Dread Test and why he became a piece of ###.
Damn, there was a gamebook for that? Wild. I remember liking the book well enough.
Oh man, I had this. Agreed, it was great. The downbeat tone of it caught me off guard as a kid.
and just to pile on, yeah i re-read them about the years ago and christ they are fricking terrible. I can tolerate some crapness in the name of a genre kick, but it was excruciating. i bought a big collection and it went to the charity shop very soon after.
I'm fricking stunned they didn't try to reboot Dragonlance. There's so much shit in it that doesn't fly today, so many twitter idiots going batshit about it every year. They should have at least retconned Goldmoon's people to be actual natives and not aryans in indian cosplay.
why would they alter it when w&h can just sue them and win again?
>They should have at least retconned Goldmoon's people to be actual natives and not aryans in indian cosplay.
Natives used to be white IRL so no need for that.
t. Mormon
>so many twitter idiots going batshit about it every year
Link?
The fact that books this boring were so successful says somehting about the fantasy scene but I don't know what. Maybe the early 80s were just a drought for good new stuff? There certainly is a ton of better fantasy out there from the 50s-60s
Dragonlance books were first fantasy books i did read, apart from pages here and there from what slop my dad got from library (he was/is just a farmer who read up any fiction he encountered, without being a nerd). Then it was eddings, salvatore, howard and something which name i just can't remember (something to do with demons lol, iirc protagonists joined to army at the start) and tolkien only few years after. I admit that DL is the basis to my image of high fantasy, elves & other shit. I don't know how much different it would actually be if i would have started with Tolkien. Maybe a bit more refined or something? I actually did not even know about him or the books at first.
Kids should start with the Silmarillion, just so that their image of elves is dudes who trecked across a frozen ocean to push a spear up somebody's rear end.
Don't apologise for liking a book when you were a kid. Dragonlance is solid until you're a 49 year old no games whiner who calls everybody who didn't take a second mortgage out to play games a secondary.
most based post I've seen on this board
imagine liking things
Tell me you're a newbie without telling me you're a newbie.
Bitter old queen
An actual homosexual too? Usually "newbie" isn't so accurate!
>I will just bullycide people into playing and reading what I want
Drop dead fatty, you are the bitter old queen in question. It's a make believe book about elves and it's good if he likes it.
I'm not saying the books are bad, moron.
I'm saying anon is a fricking n00b here if THAT is the most "based" comment he's seen on this board.
moronic mouth-breather.
No there should be more pushback on morons appealing to some kind of ephemeral authenticity. Back into your oildrum thanks.
>ephemeral authenticity.
You don't even know what you're saying zoomer. Just typing big words because you think it makes you intellectual, what a homosexual.
Can you shut the frick up while grown ups are speaking?
Kek. Tell me you suck wiener without telling me you suck wiener.
>something to do with demons lol, iirc protagonists joined to army at the start
Serpentwar saga by Raymond E. Feist?
>The prologue introduces the Saaur, warm-blooded humanoid reptiles, whose world is being overrun by demons from the Fifth Circle of Hell.
>[Protagonists] can only hope to gain freedom in exchange for service to the crown on an extremely dangerous mission.
>They are taken to a training camp where they are quickly trained as soldiers.
Yes, that. Thanks.
>Bad guys are tired of losing to the good guys every book
>Bad guys decide that in order to win, they should be more like the good guys, being honourable and shit
Wouldn’t that just turn them into good guys? It didn’t make sense the Knights of Takhisis would be loyal to her when their behaviour would be the opposite of what their goddess stands for.
Takhisis' alignment is supposed to be lawful evil isn't it? Maybe she just usually doesn't act in character.
my gm has decided to reenact the plot of the books in game (with our oc characters instead of the book ones). I never read the books or know much about them, why does tg hate them?
They are (were) popular (amongst "boomers") and not that "deep" so it's cool to hate them. Kender hate is legit though.
I'd bet most people don't actually hate them all that much. The reason people are shitting on them in this thread is because they honestly are kinda mediocre books, but most of these people (including me) read them when they were kids and didn't have the same kinds of standards and exposure and liked them. I still remember enjoying them as a kid and the fact that I can still remember so much of the plot and characters after so long is a testament to the fact that the books did leave a genuine impression on me. And I'm not enough of a grognard yet to turn my back on the things I enjoyed as a kid just because they were bad.
They do have some historical value though. They had a big impact back in the day, and affected the development of the scene and the game itself. They're fantasy schlock, but they're one of the earliest kinds of uniquely DnD style of fantasy schlock. The Forgotten Realms may get a bunch of focus as the official "default" DnD setting, but if I had to point to the archetypical example of what the "standard" DnD fantasy world is, I'd choose Krynn, not Faerun, because the thing that pops into my head whenever someone mentions a "generic" fantasy world is closer to Dragonlance than any other official setting.
I came to Dragonlance by my teens, and by that point I'd read a lot of Forgotten Realms. My friends teased me at the time for enjoying Dragonlance, and my moronic teen defense of Dragonlance was that the characters in Dragonlance were "more realistic" because the Heroes of the Lance (or whatever the gang in the Dragons of [Season] trilogy were called . . . maybe Companions?) didn't solve their problems by whipping out dual scimitars and killing everything in sight or blowing everything up with fireballs.
Dragonlance was the turning point of D&D moving away from Conan style "adventures of guys kicking down the doors to dangerous lairs to get loot", towards "a group of heroes go on a grand quest to save the world".
Last I checked the Horus Heresy didn't have a blatant foot fetish section in it, so no.
What went wrong /tg/?
Was it bad? I was kind of done with Wizards by the time they bothered publishing a Dragonlance module for 5e
You know how a big deal about The Original Dragonlance Trilogy was that people thought the Gods had left? So there were no Clerics or Paladins?
Well in 5E you can still be one. They handwaved it so your chosen deity appeared to you in a dream and suddenly you could cast spells.
So, literally Goldmoon? Yes, the god appeared to Riverwind in his dream, but Goldmoon's the one who ended up as a cleric.
No. She had to use a magic item to cast until she died and her deity resurrected her.
Is that like Angel Moroni appearing to Joseph Smith in a dream?