Dungeon Crawler

Rude. She merely switches to HERO classes.

>good combat is.......... LE BAD
it all makes sense now

>It's not good or interesting combat
Debatable. I think it's just barely good enough but that's infinitely superior to basically any pre-2000 DRPG unless you stretch the meaning of DRPG to include stuff like NetHack.

Answer the question and I will. I am not your servant

Literally just post carts if you want anyone to give a shit what you think or shut the frick up

You're the one who's pussying out, dummy. There's nothing for me to pussy out of. At best, I'm going to acknowledge that you played the games and give your dogshit opinion more weight than the 0 it has now. But that doesn't matter, because you're just a blowhard shitposter who didn't expect to be asked to back it up, which means you're not going to post carts, because you can't.

Anon, you're the one who offered to dig out your carts, I didn't bring it up, I just pointed out that you were a moron who didn't play the game.

Post carts moron.

>he actually did it
Post feet pictures next

>This whole "reeeeee, you can only like one!" shit is fricking stupid.
Yup, it’s /vrpg/ time alright
>I bet you’ve literally just been playing the apple ][ version of wizardry for 40 years. You don’t even play any other games.

Firstly the SNES version definitely isn't the best version of 1-3, the campaigns arent even in the correct order and they've been edited to compensate. Secondly you've already backed down here, admitted you "havent played wizardry in 25 years except just now which is totally a coincidence heh" and "bragged" you're playing the epicly shitty ACQUIRE Wiz. What a dissapointment you are.

>get called out on being a larping moron
>DONT REPLY TO HIM NOBODY REPLY TO HIM
Every single thread. I knew you were full of shit the second you posted.

>implying I use Steam
?RUDE CHAP?

Yeah, and? So did I. What's your point? You didn't like it? I did, a lot. What's your point?

>The classes are completely broken, for example you can beat the whole game by just using the bard insrument over and over.
I went into the game blind and honestly didn't feel like this is true. I had a single bard and the hardest difficulty wasn't easy and while he was a big help in the early game by mid to late game his usefulness dropped off hard and he was probably the least contributing member of my party.
>It has the universally hated lands of lore inventory belt.
UI was a massive step up in improvement over the old Wiz games. Though that's not really setting a high bar. I didn't have any issues with it.
>Its not massive and open like Wizardry 7
That's not really true, did you play past the opening/tutorial area? Once you get past the first mountain with the boss under the starting village church the game opens up significantly and there's a ton of side paths, branching areas, shortcuts, you can choose exactly where you go and what you do and go snag the tablets in pretty much any order you want. You pretty much have 4-5 different paths you can take from there and each one branches out into like 2-3 areas some with their own subareas, some of which loop into others.
>and lacks the competing factions/dynamic AI parties so its regressive. A lot of the riddles/puzzles simply don't make any sense whatsoever.
That's fair. There's definitely a few moon logic tier puzzles in Grimoire, as a whole though I found some of them were good thinkers.

Comparing the experiences 1:1 though I'd say grimoire is better now. Wiz6/7 UI, sound and effects, playing experience has aged like absolute dogshit. It is physically painful to replay.

>Isn't the next game being made with AI art? I'm not going to even try that one unless that gets scrapped.
Anything he starts working on now probably won't come out before he dies.

>No, you can win every single fight by just using the correct instrument over and over. (And there's only one correct instrument) Like in Wizardry 7 you have to physically write down what enemies do, figure out an approximation of their HP and their weaknesses, and devise strategies to kill them efficiently and safely
What instrument would that be? And don't say sleep harp because there's a number of enemies in the game completely immune to the sleep effect that will frick your shit up. I can't think of any other instrument that comes anywhere near as useful that also doesn't have charges you have to keep track of.
>It objectively isn't. Your shit is just piled into a belt, it's insane how stupid it is that he used the one old UI that everyone hated. It's almost like he did it on purpose to troll people.
When was the last time you replayed wiz6 or wiz7? Managing party wide inventory and equipment in those games is a major pain in the ass after playing newer games with better QoL. The combat screen just objectively sucks ass, the scrolling item list is shit, it's so much handier having a belt where you can put your most used items + some bags and chests over 1 or 2 rows and access them rapidly in and out of combat. Same goes for being able to multiuse items by picking them up with a cursor. Everything about the UI in those games was massively user unfriendly and we put up with it because we didn't have better options, not because it was in any way good. The Wiz7 UI looks and feels like a programmer's prototype that was left in the game for lack of time to think of anything better.

>and that's a good thing

>Pretty sure that one has charges
It does not. Glad we cleared that up.
>why bend over backwards to defend poorly implemented features?
Because the inventory is designed to serve a specific purpose. In Grimoire it doesn't and instead in a big ugly inventory belt with a disorganized clusterfrick of items. And now we've gone all the way from grimoire being a better game somehow to you desperately arguing you have to click a few times less to navigate to a potion or whatever, which hardly constitutes a better game or a meaningful improvement. In fact, I'm not even sure what part of 7's inventory you're even complaining about at this point.

Did you not realize by now that he didn't actually play the game and is just regurgitating a youtube video he watched once?

>I actually still have the game installed and loaded up a few older saves to check. The only instrument I could find that does what you say it does has charges (pic related) Which playing with random encounters and any difficulty past the medium one, you would burn through almost immediately after you equipped it, making it unviable for spamming until the late end game and only IF you managed to figure out how to get the recharge spell on any of your characters without being a guidegay.
If you'll look to the original release of the game you'll see that the instruments were indeed broken and charges did not even exist. There are like 50 seperate complaints for this on Steam alone, you can similarly cross reference this with codex. And of course you had to samegay and talk to yourself after. Jesus fricking christ you idiots are unbelievable.

>You were very clearly not talking about the original release
Anon, as far as I know there is only the original release because it took him 6 months to even get a manual out, let alone fix things. Most people who played it played the original release. It's not my fault you waited years to pick the game so you could be an epic hipster. For all I know the item is still in the game, as it was a random item in the first place. The game was in development for 20 years, people played it, it was a broken mess, and they moved on.

You're still doing it.

>avatargay anime poster is a dishonest cheat
No big surprise there. I have no way to know if what you are saying is true or not because you don't back up what you say with any real proof. You just pull shit out of your ass and then expect people to believe you.

There's three scenarios here
>you are lying again, because you got caught out and don't want to admit that you spew bullshit
>you are not lying, and knew that it was changed, but chose to ignore that and pretend it wasn't in your original posts so you could try to pull a gotcha when you got called out on spewing bullshit
>you are not lying, and didn't know it was changed until now, but are doubling down on pretending the current state of the game doesn't matter because it's more convenient for you to reframe your argument that way after getting caught spewing bullshit
Neither of the three paints a very sympathetic view of you or why anyone should take your opinions and arguments seriously. Most normal people would just admit that they were wrong on that point when presented with actual proof and move on.

You've gone from bringing up points and then accusing me of trying to move the goal posts when I respond to them, to lying about the game, to now putting words in my mouth. I never said wiz7's UI is too fiddly for me to have completed it. There's no point arguing about it with you, you're a disingenuous rat frick poster like every other anime avatargay on here.

Genuinely don't understand why people on anonymous boards act like this. You have no "reputation" to keep if you're wrong about something, why keep doubling down like a moron and making dishonest posts? Is looking "right" 100% of the time even when you know deep down you're wrong that important to you?

You're still doing it.

>Is it genuinely that hard to believe that multiple people could think you're an annoying homosexual
Oh no, lots of people dislike me. But when you make a post and immediately jerk yourself off it's way too obvious. I'm also skeptical that this board has more than 2 other people who completed or even own Grimoire.

>animegay thinks more than one person disagreeing with him is a samegay, because the only way people agree with him is when he has to make backup posts himself
Really says a lot about you

It's almost enough to make you wish for the days of forums to be popular again, I don't miss admin / posters with special privileges drama at all but at least there morons had their names attached to their posts and you could learn overtime which argue honestly and which ones have absolutely no shame when it comes to lying.

>Just look at which ones actually play video games and which ones are here to discuss bethesda games, it’s easy.
You are firmly in the latter category, genius.

>Mahiro poster
I will read this post and check for opinions in it; if any are given then the opposite applies.
Key words to look for are objectively or literally. It’s a definite lie at that point. Then the opposite is very important. This is key RPG advice.

Only gays use spoilers.

Keep getting filtered by every game that's not autopilot asset flip japslop.

Grimrock 2
Wizardry 7
Might and Magic 6

Play and complete these first if you want more recommendations.

The OP insinuates that EO is the only playable dungeon crawler. Pretending to be innocent doesn't work in this thread. You are just being female brained and catty rather than direct and masculine because you are weak and stupid.

>its been 6 years since EO released and there hasnt been any other goyslop since that'll easily slide down my wiener holster, any recommendations? uwu
>NOOOOOO HE DIDNT MEAN THAT

This thread was entirely made as a branch of your cancerous dead /vg/ general. There's no point in pretending otherwise.

Have you tried /r/EtrianOdyssey? People like me would not be tolerated there.

You don't play dungeon crawlers. You only play braindead trash. Everything you have to say directly detracts from any potential dungeon crawler discussion which might have been otherwise valuable and productive. This is no different than bethesturds thinking they are "contributing" to the catalogue with their cancerous TES spam and discord raids, when in reality they are just shitting in the pool. Keep crying and samegayging.

>braindead trash
That describes Might and Magic 6 far better than any of the games you're crying about.

What's good about this? You don't like it just because the map vaguely resembles something that could be a real location, do you? The game is full of pointlessly large rooms and some moronicly long hallways, each filled with one or two enemy types copy pasted 100 times. The main thing that makes the dungeons difficult to navigate is that the automap is shockingly bad at dealing with verticality and the dungeon designers put no effort into working around that flaw in their maps. And all the while you're playing some exceptionally shitty FPSRPG combat that makes even generic JRPG combat combat look good in comparison. The devs had no clue how to make anything in the game challenging so they just made everything as tedious as possible instead.

[...]
In EO you at least have separate wall tiles separating the walk tiles, and there's honestly plenty of levels where they don't use everything, and will go for a more aesthetic sensible map instead. So it's not quite as predictable compared to most other Japanese DRPGs. There's more incentive to explore as well, since they do provide rewards for it, unlike some other games. Most dead ends have something in them, be it an event, short cut, or quest related.

DT2 is probably the worst offender of this from all the games I've played, especially with its overuse of one way doors. I'd go as far as to say it has the worst level design of any game I've ever played. I mean just look at this, who thinks this looks good or would make for interesting exploration?

DT2 has outstanding dungeons. It can get tricky to figure out how to proceed, especially when stuff like switch puzzles, dark rooms, and pits get involved. I can understand not liking needing to go back through those one way door mazes to map the whole thing, but there rarely is any need to map the whole thing. The automap feature is very well put together and makes exploring easier than it otherwise would be, but it would be absurd to call that a flaw. Its handling of secret doors is also good.

You've either not properly played one or either of them, or you're baiting. They're very different games in how they play combat, exploration and party building wise, with completely different atmosphere. The only thing they have in common is that they're both DRPGs, and have a Japanese art style.

Fundamentally they're pretty similar. Grid based exploration, the way you assign skill points is much the same, including needing to be careful not to raise your TP costs too high by maxing your attack skills early. DT's miniboss random encounters even feel a lot like FOE fights, though of course DT's enemies don't chase you through the dungeon like FOEs do. Both have conventional but above average JRPG combat (still on the shallow side) that is a bit more challenging than the norm but still approachable until you hit the superbosses.

How? This might as well be randomly generated and be just as good. At least EO has some though put into it. Not that I think it has good level design either, but it's better than any other DRPG at least. And there's occasional good levels there, like EO3's post game dungeon. My favourite map in EO is the one in 3's post game with no-radar zones and turn tiles. That is an actual labyrinth you can get lost in. But for actual good level design look to Grimrock and other western crawlers.

>My favourite map in EO is the one in 3's post game with no-radar zones and turn tiles.
Loved that one.

*internal design

>The first maybe 20% are overly simple but once they hit their stride around level 30 they're consistently high quality
>immediately clarifies that they're actually shit but at least they're fast!
Alrighty then.

Do you honestly genuinely feel like 90% of DT2 maps aren't completely phoned in filler? I'd have to question your ability to discern quality if so. MM6 maps are distinctively handcrafted and unique, each one is special and memorable.

>MM6 "dungeons" are fricking dogshit
Nope.
>simpler than Doom maps
Doom has some excellent maps.

Some pretty amazing maps have been made for doom.

That map looks completely unreadable, any statement to the contrary is cope.

MM1-5 have have really mediocre maps compared to other games at the time. 6 is the real stand out because they implemented 3d maps in a unique way no one else was doing at the time, and 7 onwards were kind of increasingly worse with each new release and rushed out.

I map for games as a hobby and you have no idea what you're talking about.

>that makes it needlessly difficult to read and navigate
When you say something so stupid over and over its easy to catch its the same person. No one that played mm6 for even 5 seconds thinks this. Reel your autism in.

>That map doesn't tell you jack shit about what is going with regard to vertical layers
Except it does if you aren't blind. Shouldn't you be busy deleting posts right now?

Can't help but notice that you have once again failed to make an argument, probably because the last time you tried you exposed as more moronic than anyone could have ever imagined with that SMT vs Wizardry post.

> Did you not go to school? Is this why your argumentation is dogshit, because you simply lack reading comprehension?
First time reading one of his dishonest posts?

I never samegay. I just think it’s funny when I can detect that Black folk presence in a thread by the absence of honest discourse, much like a black hole.

Looks like, yes. But in effects it's not. You will never get lost in the game. It's just boring corridors over and over. If you had to map that manually, then maybe? It'd be pretty easy to make mistakes manual mapping something like this after all. And maybe if you didn't have the ability to save at any time you want, then maybe all those empty dead ends would matter some in raising tension as you begin running out of resources. But combined with how the game works, it gets reduced to just walking through every single tile on the map. At least add some proper rooms for contrast, so it's nothing but endless corridors the entire game.

How? This might as well be randomly generated and be just as good. At least EO has some though put into it. Not that I think it has good level design either, but it's better than any other DRPG at least. And there's occasional good levels there, like EO3's post game dungeon. My favourite map in EO is the one in 3's post game with no-radar zones and turn tiles. That is an actual labyrinth you can get lost in. But for actual good level design look to Grimrock and other western crawlers.

You've either not properly played one or either of them, or you're baiting. They're very different games in how they play combat, exploration and party building wise, with completely different atmosphere. The only thing they have in common is that they're both DRPGs, and have a Japanese art style.

Lots of people played DT2, are you moronic? Want to see a pic of my vita? It's just a bad game.

'ick on 'eck arriving in 3..2..1..

What's to explain? Press turn is a dumbed down version of identifying your enemies and learning their spells and weaknesses in 7, demon fusion is just a dumbed down version of the absurd Bradley class swapping.

>different monsters use different attacks and are weak to different ailments and attack types!
Wrong. You need to learn enemies offenses and health thresholds in Wizardy as well. This means prioritizing different types of enemies, which changes based on the unit composition of the encounter, and additionally constantly seeking to optimize killing enemies as effeciently as possible to conserve resources because due to the INSANE encounter rate having to rest constantly is a brutal soul crushing punishment when you suck, but avoiding it by expertly blowing through every fight by applying your strategems in your hand-written bestiary feels great.
>you can reset to level 1 for more spells and MP!
Again, wrong. Wizardry randomizes stat ups, so you don't have control over what you get. This combines with the fact that every dungeon is balanced to be started at level 1, and at the end you'll be a high enough level for the boss, so at the start of a dungeon you look at the stats you have available and reconfigure your party accordingly so that you have a combination of the classes that off the most beneficial skill/spell gains and classes that synergize together well enough to let you get out of the dungeon without get fricked. OR you could only class swap as needed or not even class swap at all, as classes are fully fleshed out and perfectly capable of progressing to something decent on their own. A robust system with many options.

SMT offers none of this, because its a dumbed down version of these mechanics as you have demonstrated for me in your response, so I'll take that as a concession. Embarassing.

That's just a garden variety shitpost.

What's to explain? Press turn is a dumbed down version of identifying your enemies and learning their spells and weaknesses in 7, demon fusion is just a dumbed down version of the absurd Bradley class swapping.

is pure, undiluted moron. The reply makes it even better. Now he's saying Wizardry 7 combat is good because you have to prioritize targets and expend resources appropriate to the target as if you don't do that in every RPG ever made lmao

>different monsters use different attacks and are weak to different ailments and attack types!
Wrong. You need to learn enemies offenses and health thresholds in Wizardy as well. This means prioritizing different types of enemies, which changes based on the unit composition of the encounter, and additionally constantly seeking to optimize killing enemies as effeciently as possible to conserve resources because due to the INSANE encounter rate having to rest constantly is a brutal soul crushing punishment when you suck, but avoiding it by expertly blowing through every fight by applying your strategems in your hand-written bestiary feels great.
>you can reset to level 1 for more spells and MP!
Again, wrong. Wizardry randomizes stat ups, so you don't have control over what you get. This combines with the fact that every dungeon is balanced to be started at level 1, and at the end you'll be a high enough level for the boss, so at the start of a dungeon you look at the stats you have available and reconfigure your party accordingly so that you have a combination of the classes that off the most beneficial skill/spell gains and classes that synergize together well enough to let you get out of the dungeon without get fricked. OR you could only class swap as needed or not even class swap at all, as classes are fully fleshed out and perfectly capable of progressing to something decent on their own. A robust system with many options.

SMT offers none of this, because its a dumbed down version of these mechanics as you have demonstrated for me in your response, so I'll take that as a concession. Embarassing.

I do agree that Wiz 7 has way too fricking many encounters, and they also take too long. Paired with how shallow the combat system is, it all makes the game a tough sell even taking into account Wiz 7's good features.

I find it interesting that you seem to acknowledge that the game is, in fact, very tedious. I often see this attitude with WRPG elitists, your kind often seem to take pride in your ability to push through tedium in video games for an eventual reward and seem to consider it an essential part of the experience. I could understand it if it was about mastering a difficult game like NetHack or something rather than a tedious one.

The only SMT I've played was Nocturne but being target prioritization and being aware of enemy weaknesses and abilities were easily more important there than in Wiz 7. Hama and mudo no joke especially in hard mode (where they frankly get kind of stupid).

Remaking your team to specialize for specific dungeons is absurd, there is no reason to do that. The Wiz 7 reclass system is "flexible" because it is unnecessary. Using it to gain massive mana pools is effective, but boring. It cannot combine class features beyond adding more spells and mana. It works as a respec if you messed up your build or got terrible stat up rolls. It's such a a superfluous mechanic that it doesn't belong in the same category as demon fusion which is a vital part of the game and involves meaningful trade-offs in strengths, weaknesses, abilities and so forth. It is infinitely more comparable to Etrian Odyssey's level reset mechanic which fills most of the same functions. EO's version is less powerful in exchange for being less bad for the game's balance.

I enjoy the exploration. Still, I find removing consumable items management to be a great loss (health and stamina is regenerated after each battle, fatigue is not).

You want a dissertation? Go to college, you pedantic homosexual.

>I find removing consumable items management to be a great loss (health and stamina is regenerated after each battle, fatigue is not).
This is how SaGa does it, in the SaGa series you are managing your total encounters (difficulty scales based off this) and your MP.

snake gunslingers are not okay

>I haven't played it
>objectively worse version
Lmao

Isn't it updated with some QoL? That's what the steam page mentions.
I'm more curious about Five Ordeals and Labyrinth of Lost Souls myself, I don't like getting early access games even if they're lazy remakes.

>Every single other genre is full of innovations and new additions over the years that differentiates them from their predecessors and keeps people buying more. DRPGs had a lot of innovation and companies trying new things in the late 80s / early 90s, then stagnated hard after that.
The reason for that by that time DRPGs started to transcend past the square grid maps with square grid movement, not to mention dropping full the turn-based approach, namely Wiz 8 and Elder Scrolls Arena did this. But by doing so, mostly the grid part, those first-person games stopped being DRPGs in the classical sense. Thinking on it, seems that the influence of Ultima/Dragon Quest (with 3rd person view, but also mechanics-wise) is much more apparent even on modern JRPGs like Persona 5R. Devs see early Wiz and think "nah that's obsolete".
>Until developers actually try to do something other than continuously remake the Wiz games with better UI/QoL/art the genre will remain stagnant.
Devs fixated enough on the genre as to make a similar game won't try to venture too far because they will accidentally do Wiz 8/ES:A again. But as talked above this applies to the exploration part, they have no problem adding all sort of gimmicks to combat

Suggest innovations. What do you have in mind that is so innovative and are the same time doesnt turn this highly specific genre into something completely different?

tbh maybe there's no need to something to do anything truly "new" as much as just bring ideas from elsewhere. DRPGs aren't as common those days, so that would explain why there's little cross-pollination.
I think terrain effects would be one. Besides the usual ground that saps your HP/MP or water that requires you to float over it/swim in it, you can do things like grass that powers up fire, or rain that powers up water/ice. How many games let you cross water by just freezing it?
There's many ways to deal with food while being on your home base or while setting up camp in the middle of the dungeon.
How each party member feels about each other besides (you) (which was actually done by Ishar long ago)
You can add those and feel like a natural extension.

How would hiking help? Ive hiked before, and none of that reminded me of dungeons.

Survivalism. Recognize what you can get to eat and what to avoid eating. Ways to avoid or attract beasts. Extract useful parts out of beasts or the enviroment. More movement options, including verticality, climbing terrain, trees, or structures.

NTA, but I mean you can pretty much use any combat system you like and still have it fall under the DRPG genre as long as you stick to the grid based movement and suchlike outside of combat. Kowloon uses it's own SRPG-like system, there's plenty of square dancers, you could theoretically have a DRPG that switched from standard grid movement for exploration to real time action combat and still have it count.
On the exploration side the innovation is wrapped up in new and interesting puzzle and gimmick design, but most (good) devs are already doing that just fine.

See for example "go to a different screen for battle" is what basically almost every JRPG does regardless of going for the turn or action route, the ones with no transition like to point out as a point of novelty.

Particularly when parley is like 1/4 of SMT gameplay ever since it was originally a DRPG with simple top-view overworlds. And it's relatively simple in SMT, compared to the extensive talk trees you have in eg Fallout.

No

In which one?

Im talking about the older ones though, closer to the current scene of drpgs.

Perhaps that is exactly where the problem is at

>EO is absolutely a wizardry clone at it's core
It's not trying to do anything wizardry was building on and you don't fundamentally understand what those games are and what they're trying to do

>Do both games center around repeatedly venturing into and mapping out a large maze from a safe "town" area
Thats almost every RPG in existence, you tard.

>Most RPGs aren't concerned with exploration by mapping
Name one that isn't.

Be honest, did you play bg3? You can't have possibly played bg3

Be honest, did you play bg3? You can't have possibly played bg3

Shameleslly samegayging, will you tell its not a story driven game now?
An that its a Dungeon crawler as well right?

The best part of BG3 is the exploration and it has gigantic and really, really well designed dungeons, some of the best ever made even.

>Dungeons in the game literally follow the corridor-encounter-corridor intertwined with the occasional puzzle formula.
Underdark is an optional 10 hour long non-linear dungeon that leads into another 10 hour long nonlinear dungeon. Did you drop the game after 5 minutes? Now I've really lost all respect for you people, good job. No more sympathy from me.

Yeah, that's what actual decent crawlers do. But unfortunately Japan stopped at wiz 3 instead of 7.

Oh I see, this really is a marketing campaign.
I know what Wizardry you are referencing as well, 8, the one you saw that video essay about.

Funny nos that this proves something though, this Dungeon and dragons games really has no Dungeons. Just as you said.

>EO moron really thought a dungeons and dragons game didn't have any dungeons or dragons in it
lol

>wizardry
Which Wizardry games are you talking about exactly? 7 only? I think most of this thread means to reference the older ones.

What?

Sorry, I dont play EO

>You can warp to any registered map at any time in EO

The original EO games are NOT like this, and the later 3DS games suffer for it. They gave in to casuals. Vanilla EO1 and EO3 are still the peak of the series.

>AND you have to walk all the way back out.
That sounds based

You have to be borderline moronic, there's a reason everyone started making dungeon crawlers again after EO1.

>They gave in to casuals. Vanilla EO1 and EO3 are still the peak of the series.
Untold 1 on expert/classic is harder than EO1.

>zero mechanics in common
comethefrickon.jpg

Yeah, this boring ass Dungeon RPG games are so stale nowdays they could use some innovations. like perhaps transitioning into third person perspective, for starters, or even top view, get to see ours guys better right. Also, a more action based combat could be a good innovation too, turned based is just sooo outdated, If we can get cool realistic combat like dragon dogma, why persist with the abstraction that is turn based? Also, smaller Dungeons (How boring is It to explore and Wander around a bunch of hallways feeling Lost?), maybe 3 or 4 rooms and a few meaningful encounters, make It more engaging.
Also we need more story and dialogue, and some sex scenes too, If I cant get some pussy and heroic cutscenes, why even bother? Am i playing Just to see some numbers Go up?
Top It off with better builds (skill trees, some 20 classes, and 3d character customization and give each at least 15 combat skill) as well, and the genre is great again.
But nerds here want everything to stay the same, play the old game then right?

Suggest innovations. What do you have in mind that is so innovative and are the same time doesnt turn this highly specific genre into something completely different?

I'm not a designer, I can't claim to know what's best. But as I've pointed out here

I honestly still think a non grid based approach could work well, if done right. But I do agree I haven't seen it done yet in a way that I've liked. I don't think minor gimmicks added to combat/exploration, or QoL necessarily count as innovation that's good for making the genre not feel stale again, unless it's something really novel or unique.

I'm not a game designer or developer so I can't claim to have any good ideas as to where the genre should go. But when I mean innovation, I mean developers trying new things, like the Dungeon Master or Might and Magic games- they tried to put their own spin on the genre instead of blindly imitating. I think most people would agree that going from turn based pop up random encounters to real time or turn based with visual monsters moving around on the map you can see/engage with from a distance, even if not necessarily better, was something that expanded the genre for the better, giving us more variety and games to play that weren't just straight knockoffs of each other with different maps.

Or how Wiz 4 tried to take a different approach to the formula with playing as Werdna, or how Wiz 6 and 7 decided to put a bigger emphasis on text/item based puzzles, NPCs, and story telling within the dungeon(s) as you explore.

there used to be a lot of DRPGs in the late 80s/early 90s that tried to genuinely innovate on the genre with varying degrees of success instead of just rehashing the same old tired formula like we saw from the 2000s onwards.

If anything I'd say gameplay wise we've actually regressed because most games coming out now have more in common with the first 3 wizardry games than any of the more unique mechanics we saw in games in the 90s.

I don't think anyone would claim that something like Dungeon Master or Wizardry 7 weren't DRPGs despite them being much different in different ways from the originals.

>Survivalism. Recognize what you can get to eat and what to avoid eating. Ways to avoid or attract beasts. Extract useful parts out of beasts or the enviroment. More movement options, including verticality, climbing terrain, trees, or structures.
This seems interesting.
In fact, this reminds me of something that not many drpgs execute well. A thing that was presente at pool of radiance (not exactly a drpg)
That is, parlaying with enemies. Parlaying should be more of a option. I remember undernauta doing something similar and I find that such a thing is lacking is more Wizardry inspired games.
I think this games could do well by having overworlds as well. Go all in into the tabletop inspiration and make a hexcrawl procedurally generated overworld. A game like Elminage couldve done with a Nice overworld.

[...]
tbh maybe there's no need to something to do anything truly "new" as much as just bring ideas from elsewhere. DRPGs aren't as common those days, so that would explain why there's little cross-pollination.
I think terrain effects would be one. Besides the usual ground that saps your HP/MP or water that requires you to float over it/swim in it, you can do things like grass that powers up fire, or rain that powers up water/ice. How many games let you cross water by just freezing it?
There's many ways to deal with food while being on your home base or while setting up camp in the middle of the dungeon.
How each party member feels about each other besides (you) (which was actually done by Ishar long ago)
You can add those and feel like a natural extension.
[...]
Survivalism. Recognize what you can get to eat and what to avoid eating. Ways to avoid or attract beasts. Extract useful parts out of beasts or the enviroment. More movement options, including verticality, climbing terrain, trees, or structures.
[...]
See for example "go to a different screen for battle" is what basically almost every JRPG does regardless of going for the turn or action route, the ones with no transition like to point out as a point of novelty.

These suggestions would be interesting to see. Especially keeping the same structure we know works but adding in more features from OD&D/AD&D that are seldom seen in games. Parlaying, morale for enemies and party members / henchmen if you have them. More indepth traversal options even if the game is grid based (climbing, jumping/roping/poling over pits and gaps, etc.) A game that mixes wilderness exploration / dungeon discovery via hexcrawl would be cool. Maybe there's a reason some of these things haven't been done much in games, maybe they don't work well. But I'm honestly bored to death of most of these new games coming out because they don't do anything we haven't seen already and don't do what we have seen any better.

Im the Guy that wrote this

Yeah, this boring ass Dungeon RPG games are so stale nowdays they could use some innovations. like perhaps transitioning into third person perspective, for starters, or even top view, get to see ours guys better right. Also, a more action based combat could be a good innovation too, turned based is just sooo outdated, If we can get cool realistic combat like dragon dogma, why persist with the abstraction that is turn based? Also, smaller Dungeons (How boring is It to explore and Wander around a bunch of hallways feeling Lost?), maybe 3 or 4 rooms and a few meaningful encounters, make It more engaging.
Also we need more story and dialogue, and some sex scenes too, If I cant get some pussy and heroic cutscenes, why even bother? Am i playing Just to see some numbers Go up?
Top It off with better builds (skill trees, some 20 classes, and 3d character customization and give each at least 15 combat skill) as well, and the genre is great again.
But nerds here want everything to stay the same, play the old game then right?

And this

>Survivalism. Recognize what you can get to eat and what to avoid eating. Ways to avoid or attract beasts. Extract useful parts out of beasts or the enviroment. More movement options, including verticality, climbing terrain, trees, or structures.
This seems interesting.
In fact, this reminds me of something that not many drpgs execute well. A thing that was presente at pool of radiance (not exactly a drpg)
That is, parlaying with enemies. Parlaying should be more of a option. I remember undernauta doing something similar and I find that such a thing is lacking is more Wizardry inspired games.
I think this games could do well by having overworlds as well. Go all in into the tabletop inspiration and make a hexcrawl procedurally generated overworld. A game like Elminage couldve done with a Nice overworld.

I know the genre has regressed into the safety of replicating Wizardry 1 to 3. I see no evil in that, though, interesting Dungeons make for interesting games in this genre and drpg is a hyperspecific definition. Change too much of the game and really, its no longer a drpg.
Elminage, for once, makes the formula great, and its one of the most Fun drpgs out there, and really, It doesnt change much besides offering you a lot of Dungeons to explore.
That said, I do think the genre has space for improvement, a lot in fact, without needing to change much of its core. We for once could do with overworlds. I really enjoy the idea of bringing the genre closer to old school D&D playstyle, pool of radiance and other gold Box games could serve as good inspiration for certain systems.
We could have parlaying, hiring Mercenaries to conquer Lairs and strongholds in the wilderness and overworld skirmish combat, all while mantaining the first person Dungeon crawling as the ver core of the game.
But a Very precise balance must be put in place. Otherwise, its easy to see these games no longer being drpgs.
For once, I dont think we should have off grid exploration, no top view Dungeon crawling, no heavy story telling, no emphasis on dialogue options, no aesthetical character customization beyond simple portraits, no romances, no skill nor class bloat (such as It is in more recent crpgs), no cinematic cutscnes etc. there is a lot of modern rpg things that must be kept out so as to keep the genre inside of its well defined boundaries.