Dungeon Crawlers

That's fan art, disingenuous anon.

>that's meant to be small chested
>when there are clear shadows under the breasts highlighting their size

That's the thing, when it comes to DRPGs there's no catch-all inspiration too look at as a golden standard.
EO has good presentation and that's pretty much it's only strength, it's dogshit at practically everything else.
While DRPGs outside atlus don't lack on the gameplay department, they definitively lack a golden standard, like EO either it looks good and plays like shit, it plays great but it looks like garbage, or it's only decent/good at both.

I don't agree with your opinion on EO at all, but I would like to know what DRPGs you consider to have good gameplay

I genuinely want game recommendations, not to argue with you. We have different tastes, so you probably like something I don't even know of

>YOU'RE FAV GAME A SHIT
>w-what games do I like? hehe I'm not telling~
Every time

>And dungeon crawlers also lack a more dedicated community of developers
There are, even if we only count localized games then experience pretty much carries the entire genre on their shoulders.
Once you step outside the EOP realm you realize dungeon crawler is pretty much the default genre for japanese indie games, if the west has "roguelite BUT..." then japan has "dungeon crawler BUT..."

grimrock is the golden standard for complete holistic dogshit and i'm convinced the only reason people shill it is because it's the only one of it's kind in modern times, so people have nothing to properly compare it to

All square dancing DRPGs are crap entirely because of that, they are also mostly ok outside of that.

Dungeon crawlers can be a lot of things as they all share the same roots in tabletop role playing games, but we usually talk about turn-based "blobbers" or "DRPGs" here, which are first person grid based dungeon crawlers, they can also be in real-time, most examples of real-time are older titles aside from Grimrock, there aren't a ton of real-time titles. Roguelikes in essence are top down grid-based turn-based dungeon crawlers with permadeath and procedural generation. There are further complications as you get away from this definition and start to loosely apply roguelike concepts to your game. If you really get down to it, a dungeon crawler is basically any sort of role playing scenario in which you explore a dungeon or set of dungeons typically fighting monsters, solving puzzles, and obtaining loot, in many cases there is will be a town/city/village that is your base of operations. Presentation can vary wildly. For example, I love the King's Field series but wouldn't normally bring it up here because while it is a first person dungeon crawler with RPG mechanics, it has free movement and is more focused on real-time action, so it doesn't fit the strict DRPG focus of the threads. It's all a hefty amount of autism, I hope that helped.

Gold Box does exploration like a blobber (first person running around a box maze) but when you get in a fight it turns into a tactical turnbased grid view

>Classes were already shit from the first game, suffering from "pander to the lowest common denominator" to an extent, it only gets worse and worse in more recent games when some are really good and some are borderline unusable.
>While it had a good idea at the start of making no party feel fully complete (aside from autistic minmaxing), again, it slowly devolved into a swarm of do-it-alls.
>Grimoire stones were objectively a mistake, at that point drop the pretense and go full disgaea to let everyone learn stuff from any class by reincarnation/reclassing.
>Skill trees and a large number of skills, while a good idea on paper, the way it's done in EO means outside very specific meme builds you have one optimal way of building someone for the role you want and that's it, there's not much choice involved, you either know what to pick or you have a suboptimal guy.
>Manually drawing the map, while a cute gimmick, it gets old fast, and carries the problem of not being able to make maps too complex or too large.
>Story mode was a mistake, I could go on multiple post-limit rants on it but at the end of the day atlus took a series about making (you)r team with (you)r own stories and shoehorned a locked party into it, which worsened the do-it-alls problem even further and made everything worse when the game has to be balanced around said party, classic mode is a mediocre and lazy bandaid fix that doesn't even do things right.
>Even the designs are on a weird middle ground between trying to pander to otaku and normalgay pandering, which is not a good sign at all, it's not fully normal like persona or SMT so normals will complain, but it's far from being full coom so you will get people saying it's not lewd enough.
Etrian is a middle of the road series with a good memorable art style that got ran to the ground by a company known for pandering to the lowest common normalgay denominator in the worst ways possible.

>by U2 grims are mostly for getting the most out of your classes bread and butter skills
I'm not that guy, but the whole idea of stacking skills from 10 to 20 is inherently shit.

>It seems weird that you complain about autistic min/maxing, then complain about things being "sub-optimal"
There's a difference between picking a half decent party and abusing borderline glitches with very specific setups.
Also your "freedom of choice" when it comes to skills is meaningless when you realize it's a thin veiled setup to reuse the same portrait for 2-3 similar classes by putting them on the skill tree instead of as real classes.

>It is an insult to the genre and represents everything Dungeon Crawlers aren't supposed to be, even your average japanese dungeon crawler has better artwork.
While I don't disagree, you have to imagine it from the point of view of a normalgay that only knows final fantasy at most and a bunch of 3dpd movie games.
In that context, it is memorable.

by how he sounds, probably he wants 3dpd shit like sosc and arguably wizardry

Untold Story modes simply gives you a basic balanced party with a unique/better landsknecht for the MC, there is nothing special to "design" around there. This whole list is half-baked and you couldn't prescribe the actual problem that arose in EO3 and beyond

The setting and art is what really carries it for me. I have only played EO 1 and 2 and I can't say it's any worse than either of them too. The one gripe I have is that you can't tell visually who's attacking who half the time. Not even the curtesy of flashing a portrait or sprite before an attack.

>but shit like generic western priest-clerics was extremely boring.
Oh man I couldn't disagree more with you. The fact that classes in EO became zany with time is what made me lose interest completely in the series. And now, in Undernauts, with a choice of office lady samurai, policewoman hunter and broke-ass homeless mangaka cleric? Sign me the frick up my man. I much prefer the idea of marching a bunch of losers to their doom instead of a gang of jrpg protags

Wrong. My turn: Bri*ish

I'm not even in the same continent as burgers. I'm sorry my superior tastes triggers you.

>with a choice of office lady samurai, policewoman hunter and broke-ass homeless mangaka cleric
Too bad they do the exact same thing regular warriors, rangers and clerics do. Just a fresh coat of paint. This happens in almost every single Experience game.

no, chadstralian
Only an american like you would make a post so horrendous [...]

Ah yes, the canadians of the East. That explains a lot.

Shadow Tower Abyss became one of my favourite games of all time after I played it. Atmosphere wise, is miles ahead anything else From Software has ever made, and the only things comparable are maybe some dungeon crawlers like Grimrock but I don't think even that comes close to what ST:A brings to the table.

I'm yet to play any of the KF games, the answer is probably obvious, but the best place to start is 1 and going on from there?

Also, something very curious I just found out: There is a whole community dedicated to making custom content for Dungeon Master: https://www.dungeon-master.com/forum/viewforum.php?f=31. It's amazing to see such an old dungeon crawler receiving new content nowadays. I'm really curious to play some of the dungeons to see how good they are.

I thought KF1 was a good starting place despite it being incredibly simple and short just because it wasn't too much to get a grip on (just the fourth floor is extremely dull). But maybe coming from Abyss instead of never having played any of the '90s first person From games before it will be too skimpy and ugly.

Forgot to mention in this post, but maybe La Mulana and La Mulana 2 are what come closest in terms of atmosphere when compared to ST:A. Even though they're both 2d Metroidvanias, the sense that you're completely lost in a alien environment and have to fight your way out of there is pretty similar. I wish we lived in a world where La Mulana brought enough attention to bring some copycats just like the Souls games have.

Shit, that's a great sell on La Mulana, I keep putting it off since I want to dedicate an extended period of uninterrupted time to it, with a notepad. And yeah, I started with KF1, wouldn't do it any other way. I didn't find it that bad but I imagine it's very hard to stomach for most people. It's worth it seeing the changes and advances they made in the subsequent games.

I actually turned off the music in every KF because there were so many zones where the loops were very short and very annoying, and I'd forget to turn it back on after I got out of that area. I'm sure I missed some good ones but I really couldn't stand the bad ones.

I really enjoyed the music overall (mostly KF4) but there were some loops that were extreme aural punishment, so don't blame anyone for turning it off. It's the nice part of Shadow Tower, the slow, plodding gameplay is enhanced by the lack of OST building tension through environmental sources of sound.

Shadow Tower having a 4 foot view distance that makes every single enemy into a jump scare is certainly helping the horror vibe

Man Shadow Tower is way way too samey not to have at least early King's Field you are here maps and a compass.
It seems like back in 1999 you were supposed to go to From's website to get maps, which no longer exist on the internet

lazy bait, try harder for (you)s
here's a pity one at least
inb4 >reeee not everything you disagree with is bait

Anon, I agree with you. But if you can’t find joy in this genre, characterized amongst other things as being done on a budget, try something else.
What you don’t like is one of the things people enjoy about these games.

Nobody can "prove" taste. If you like to watch a 12 minute cinematic of a basic attack, then that's your prerogative. Personally I don't give a shit about watching a cinematic take more than a few seconds if it doesn't change the outcome. Despite my earlier hyperbolic comment, it's a scale, not an "all or nothing", so stop sperging out about stupid shit.

>No one tell this guy about books.
That's not what I'm talking about.

In the context of a book it would be massive plot holes that you have to try and fill in yourself because the author couldn't be assed.
Then said author preaches and belittles the readers that don't by saying "don't you have any imagination???? i shouldn't need to fill in these plot holes for you!"

>the characted desings are too cartoony
>says the cartoony anime girl

Lord have mercy I'm bout to BUST

You're a clueless normie 'tard. You don't even know what kind of product you consoom. Dumb frick.

>crash bandicoot
Why would they put a 3d platformer in a different category?

I also had no crashes no PC

know any good hoster for 3gb?

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1wMs9CJ7TOrZRrbcOag5TMpVte1eYpsH8/view?usp=sharing

nothing is good if you pull the typical westoid move of being afraid of taking it seriously out of fear of being immature

>I didn't say it was great, all I said is that it was more enjoyable than what Mary Skelter has.
It really isn't. You don't even get a single proper magic coven that allows you to cast more than 2 spells without emptying your MP bar until you're already 70% of the way through the main story. The game is so focused on auto-battle combat it makes Experience games look complex.

>you can cast plenty of spells with the starter Mage pact, even if it's not all that great.
No, that's bullshit. The starting mage pact's spells cost in the 40-70DP range and at that point in the game the coven isn't going to have even 250DP to spend. You get to at most six spells per dungeon dive and that's it. Even early game EO isn't that stingy. Never mind that the starting spells are so weak they're hardly worth the cost.
>You can also get Pecorino's pact in the second dungeon, if I remember right, which lets you slot plenty of support characters for plenty of casts, despite the high MP costs of the pact.
That's also bullshit, because the DP costs of the spells in that pact are enormous and using the offensive ones requires you to use the support slot that doubles them, and you get it at a point where you barely have any units to spare in support slots.
It isn't until you get the White Rose pact in Rosatempus that you finally have a single magic pact that has reasonable DP costs relative to the usefulness of the spells for the point of the game where you're at. Before that using magic outside of boss fights is not only completely needless but also a waste of highly limited resources.
1/2

>Not to mention all the useful non-mage skills in all the other pacts, that you're almost certainly going to be using in the battles with the bigger FOE style enemies and bosses at least. Pure auto-battle is only used in trash fights, and there are occasional encounters mixed in those as well where it won't always be enough.
The only skill that was consistently used was the obligatory defence one to redirect enemy attacks to the tanky coven. I spent 90% of the game, including boss fights, using nothing but this and having everyone else use the basic attack. The game doesn't ask for anything more.
>The MP usage of skills is on par with other DRPGs, except for the ones that just give you effectively infinite amounts of it, and doesn't force you to manage your resources at all.
You keep making this argument about difficulty while ignoring that at least in those games you have something to fricking do in battle. Coven's combat system is fricking braindead and the ridiculous DP costs combined with limited DP availability in general are a big part of that because it actively discourages using anything other than basic attacks, and the game is easy enough that this doesn't even matter.

I don't remember having issues with MP, but now that I think about it, I might have bought the complete pack from a steam sale, that had all the DLC, which does seem to come with a decent mage pact, so if I had that, it could be the reason I haven't shared your experience with the lack of MP. There were some useful buff skills in addition to the taunts, and the occasional attack skills, and some more situational stuff.

As for difficulty due to having more things to do. Is collecting data into an excel sheet manually more challenging, compared to writing a script that does it for you automatically? Just because you get to do repetitive manual tasks, doesn't make it more challenging. The challenge in these games comes from the planning outside of battle. And again, I'm not saying Refrain is a challenging game either, at least if we compare it to EO, SMTSJ, and so on, but for me, it has a lot more going for it, compared to Mary Skelter, even if we only take into account gameplay.

supports don't increase DMP and the slot that gives you the good skills actually doubles costs
Before reincarnation a mage pact will probably only have enough DMP for one good boss battle. The only resource you manage is reinforcement so you can double up mud exits anytime. Manual orders in battle is just for item usage, individuals can't use skills or anything else useful. Bosses are just watching for the party wipe telegraph, healing, and autobattle.
It's got a ton of numbers but you can absolutely ignore everything and unga through it until you reach an optional boss like junon or furfur. Equip selection is just sort by stat and synth all duplicates. Most pacts are gimmick trash. I enjoyed it overall but it's shallow as hell with lots of crappy balance decisions.

I admit I could be remembering the support characters affecting DMP wrong, it's been a while. Could have been thinking about the donum efficiency thing that reduces cost by 25%, and didn't stack, if I remember right.

I'm sure you can build a party that handles everything just fine in auto-battle, but why would you do that? You can also build a party of 4 fighters in something like might and magic 7 as well, and you'd likely do just fine doing nothing but basic melee attacks and kiting enemies with arrows, by abusing the turn based toggle, but wouldn't that get boring?

In the previous message, you were implying that having even something to do in battle, makes it more challenging, so I was just replying to that. Anyway, let's forget about difficulty, as it's clearly not something neither of the games are known for, and apparently no one else but me was talking about it anyway. My point is, some shallow battle gimmicks, don't make a better battle system. Everything around it, is what makes the game. Battles in DRPGs are just seeing your prior plans and preparations come into fruition. Now, you can disagree with that notion, but that is my take on the genre, and what's important to me in it, and I find Mary Skelter more lacking in those gameplay aspects, compared to Labyrinth of Refrain.

>In the previous message, you were implying that having even something to do in battle, makes it more challenging
No, I was saying that having something to do in battle instead of just auto-battling every turn makes it less fricking boring. I don't know why you thought it was talking about difficulty because it wasn't.
>My point is, some shallow battle gimmicks, don't make a better battle system. Everything around it, is what makes the game. Battles in DRPGs are just seeing your prior plans and preparations come into fruition.
This is bizarre logic that doesn't even make sense. The battle system is the battle system, the other gameplay mechanics are the other gameplay mechanics. A game with an interesting battle system can be lacking in other areas (eg. Ray Gigant) and a game with interesting mechanics otherwise can have a lacking battle system (eg. Stranger of Sword City). Coven has interesting elements aside from the battle system and no one is arguing that, people are arguing that Coven's combat is shit.
> I find Mary Skelter more lacking in those gameplay aspects, compared to Labyrinth of Refrain.
I don't even disagree with that.

>Coven has interesting elements aside from the battle system
Correction, it has good IDEAS, but they are all executed in the worst way possible.

>The most I can say is that damage type matters a lot and not at least diversifying weapons will punish you harshly.
You would be surprised, more often than not you don't even have to bother because you can just go off physical weapon damage types instead and cover the rest with a white rose coven.
You can clear the entire game with 12 hammer ungatards and 1 white rose marginal coven.
In fact, if you rely on items to heal you can just use 15 hammer ungatards with different weapons and auto battle everything to death.

the problem is not that it's impossible, the problem is that it's too much work for something unga bunga auto battle already does well enough

supports don't increase DMP and the slot that gives you the good skills actually doubles costs
Before reincarnation a mage pact will probably only have enough DMP for one good boss battle. The only resource you manage is reinforcement so you can double up mud exits anytime. Manual orders in battle is just for item usage, individuals can't use skills or anything else useful. Bosses are just watching for the party wipe telegraph, healing, and autobattle.
It's got a ton of numbers but you can absolutely ignore everything and unga through it until you reach an optional boss like junon or furfur. Equip selection is just sort by stat and synth all duplicates. Most pacts are gimmick trash. I enjoyed it overall but it's shallow as hell with lots of crappy balance decisions.

Over-leveling yourself makes content trivially easy, who would have thought. How is this any different from any other game that relies heavily on a leveling system?