Space Marine 1
Space Marine 2
Epic 40.000
Epic Armageddon
NetEpic
NetEpic Armageddon
Legion Imperialis
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Epic which ruleset do you prefer?
Space Marine 1
Space Marine 2
Epic 40.000
Epic Armageddon
NetEpic
NetEpic Armageddon
Legion Imperialis
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haven't played any of these myself but going to buy into NetEpic Armageddon soon
i'm sure more than 9/10 people "prefer" Legions Imperialis simply because it probably has more players now than the previous do at this point, maybe by a long shot
Net Epic Armageddon is probably the most popular and I like it.
>it probably has more players now than the previous do at this point, maybe by a long shot
It doesn’t
Ah, okay. I assumed it would be like HH, where there had a dedicated playerbase, but it was swamped when GW "updated" it with plastics and more affordable rules (less books).
The issue is the lack of units, lack of army diversity, and absurd price of entry compared to regular epic. I wouldn’t even suggest buying the armies and playing regular epic since they would be out of scale with regular epic if it really is 8mm scale. You could still play with 8mm minis, it would however look weird with oversized soldiers and vehicles compared to your opponents’.
the scale isn't that different, and the other epics are generally pretty accomodating of base size variability. the plastic legions infantry are the same height as common proxies like vanguard or bradley marines. plastic tanks are a little bigger than most 3rd party, but you're talking the difference of a rhino going from 23mm to 25mm length. and a lot of printed tanks are bigger again than the plastics.
plus, people already widely use the titanicus 2018 titans and 2nd ed aeronautica planes in epic armageddon, and those size differences are much more pronounced than anything happening at infantry scale.
>the scale isn't that different
it's honestly so typical of GW that they fricked it up
they advertise LI as "EPIC SCALE" and then completely change the scale to be much bigger than epic
GW can't help but scalecreep literally everything
It's on purpose, obviously. just like them fricking up their rules so they always have something to fix is no accident. but the point is you can keep using whichever minis you want. it's close enough.
To be honest I prefer the new scale and models.
>Ogryn are taller than squats
Say it ain't so!
Those are both Ogryn, my friend.
I was serious. Mistakes were made.
Everybody derps.
The IG box (not the one in the pic, I was a moronic kid and didn't keep the box) was the first miniature wargaming box I ever assembled. I for sure did it wrong, but the little shapes are stuck in my brain forever.
Didn't even know the mainline game it was for, ended up with that later but it was great. I got a lot of polystyrene cement on everything and likely got a bit high, spent the next month pushing around little squares of doods making pewpew noises.
>can't tell if joking or doesn't know
Genuine question about the scale because I'm not clear about something. I see "8mm" thrown around - now is that 8mm as in Marines are 8mm tall, but the standard human is still 6mm.(i.e. it's still a nominal 6mm game), or are the Solar Auxilia scaled to 8mm and the Marines a little bigger accordingly?
Humans are 8mm, marines are basically 10mm
well it's not this
for starters
and it isn't really a "scale", it's just a nominal size. it gives you a very rough idea of whether things are at the same order of magnitude, but it's not useful for calculating final model dimensions. actual scales are always expressed as a ratio. with historicals it's the ratio to the real thing, like a 1:3000 dreadnought or a 1:144 tiger tank. epic scales are a ratio from the 40k model of the same unit, and for new epic (Legions, AT18, AI2) that is 1:4. the "correct" size of a model is whatever it would be in 40k divided by 4.
the older epic stuff used a 1:5 scale during the late 90s and early 00s, so those models are about 20% smaller than the new versions. and a "hey mr. sculptor, just do whatever you feel like" scale prior to that so shit's inconsistent. and of course the reference models (in 40k) haven't stayed the same size either, which adds a little extra layer of challenge. for something like a rhino, measuring your 40k model, divide by 4, and then print your epic model at that length is easy. but if you don't have a 40k model, or none exists, or it's something with variable pose like infantry, it gets fuzzier.
pic related is a bunch of new and older infantry sizes on what looks like a half inch grid. none of them are "basically 10mm". they're all between 7mm and 9mm except for the old 2nd ed plastic tac marine which is about 6mm. but you could put any or all of these on the same table. you just wouldn't want to mix the very different ones within the same unit.
you're including the integral bases, and one of those is a terminator
Are you moron? The foot of the models are touching the ground the base is between legs.
look at your own photo again
and then for the hell of it maybe go put your calipers on an actual 10mm model to understand why representing this as "basically 10mm" to anons that don't have the models in hand might be a problem.
>Human model mesures 8mm
>Marine model mesures 9,8mm
ThOsE aRe NoT 8mM mOdEls yoU Are wRonG, BasIcalLy 10Mm iS nOt 10mM
Ok
Pic's wrong. Chaplin on the left is from Epic 40k, not
>2nd
Which would be Epic Space Marine iirc.
Don't care about the scale thing. There are differences but its not that big a deal for infantry, although it wouldn't be out of the ordinary for gw to see if they can outscale as a competitive thing.
> more players
Lmao. I dont think so. It's not a good game and people can't even get ahold of the product
I think I would like to try Net EArmageddon to play with more xenos.
A lot of people recommend NetEpic. Legion imperialis seems to be related to second edition but I don't know how much.
Armageddon (4th) is the edition with the most existing epic players. It's a great game with a frickton of available army lists, basically anything you could ask for. but it's got a bit more abstraction and is not really the kind of game GW makes anymore. It takes a little while for current Legions players to get their heads around.
Legions obviously is the hot new thing, and is bringing in a lot of new player interest. It is based *very* closely on 2nd ed, core rules are almost identical, which is also the root of NetEpic. So if you've played and like legions, but want to bring in xenos, full titan rules, or just generally more armies, it is very easy to go from Legions to NetEpic Gold. the lessons all translate.
NetEpic Armageddon is the most well-refined and balanced version, IMO.
There seems to be a lot of division between netepic/legion and netepic Armageddon.
There are also people playing with apocalypse or OPR grim dark future rule sets.
Obviously since Netepic and NetEA are based on very different takes on thr concept. It's the same faultline that existed back then. Netepic is 2e, meaning a crapton of fiddly and flavorful stuff, with all the junk that implies. EA is a very streamlined and extremely tight and well-made game.
I'd say it's about equal on the "refinement and balance" front from either NetEpic Gold or Armageddon. they're very different games, but both have been lovingly maintained and balanced by their respective communities over the course of decades. player preference is going to be more a matter of taste; you're getting a top quality game either way. a good chunk of the epic community plays both.
they each have their strengths. I wouldn't characterize 2e as especially fiddly (certainly not by the standards of GW games). EA has some 3rd DNA mostly in the way of its combat systems, which are more abstract. but really EA's biggest edge is in the sheer number of army lists available.
The two big points of division for players are going to be on the command system and where the focus is. 2nd has hidden orders and morale, vs 4th which is an alternating roll-to-activate system with suppression (ie blast markers). that creates a very different feel to the games. 2nd also has more focus on the "guts" of units - in particular maintaining full integration with titanicus - while 4th uses a set of like profiles and special rules for everything. they shine in different situations.
Reading through the net Armageddon rulebook now. Isn't it a pain in the ass to roll before every single action? Track the blast morale system seems a bit like a chore, maintaining initiative sounds like a good idea but could get old quite fast considering all the uneventful activation dice rolling. Does it feel better while playing?
>Isn't it a pain in the ass to roll before every single action?
No, because it's not a pain to work through actions as the system stubbornly defies GW convention by not being a giant clunky mess.
The activation dice system is also the core of defining how armies operate differently from each other, by defining what kinds of actions players are willing to risk with them. A classic example is Orks, and how their army is hugely thematically boosted into playing like 'Orks' by the simple expedient of making the actions to double move or assault much easier for them than anything else. Maintaining initiative is not something every army does all the time in every situation, it's something to risk trying when it it can give an advantage. For instance Eldar make a lot of use of it because they need to coordinate a lot of small units.
And the blast markers morale system is just a good system on two levels: it gives players ways to affect enemy units in a way that isn't just destroying units (which gives viability in options for tactics and equipment beyond simply deleting stuff), and visually it shows where shit is going down. It's very simple in practice and hugely adds to the gameplay over the older (Space Marine) editions of Epic that lacked it.
How does it work for small elite formations? If I'm not mistaken it's super easy to break and pin small formations includind tanks when the blast is guaranteed once you shoot, no matter if you hit or not.
very small formations tend to be fragile and get overwhelmed easily. that's by design. if you play MSU you get activation advantage and can split fire easier, but the downside is the parts of your army get isolated and killed easier. special forces like SM can get away with it, other armies will make their combat formations bigger. don't send a tank squadron to do a tank company's job.
Isn't it a bit extreme to allow to move 3 times with the march order, regular infantry can move 45cm in one go.
extreme compared to what?
they have to give up their whole turn to do that
I mean yes but most units will be able to almost cross the table in one move.
You know what bud, I like you
You seem likeable
But go get some pennies to use as proxies, look up the Training Scenarios in the completely free NetEA rules, and play a few rounds against yourself or a friend. just do it m8. The questions are getting silly.
>Verification not required
I'm not an imperial gay I use cm.
I was talking about anything that moves more than 15cm. Assault marines can move 90cm in one go. Anything that can go faster than that will be able to go anywhere on the table.
>Assault marines can move 90cm in one go. Anything that can go faster than that will be able to go anywhere on the table.
We can do better than Assault Marines, let's go for Eldar Jetbikes with their 35cm move and Skimmer.
The Jetbikes can sacrifice all their shooting capability (significant in a game that lasts 3-5 turns!) to move 105cm. The recommended table size for standard games is anywhere between 90x150cm to 150x240cm. While skimmers can fly over terrain, they *can't* fly over enemy units or enter their Zones of Control (5cm bubble for every regular unit, 10cm bubble for units with Scout).
So if you're playing on the tiniest board the designers recommend, *and* you're using the fastest units in the game, *and* you're willing to forego a third to a fifth of all the shooting or assaulting that unit will ever do, *and* there are no enemy units at all along the shortest straight line, you still can't "go anywhere" on the table in a turn; you can make it to the other side of the table at best. Even over multiple turns, the opponent's troops will restrict where you can move. That's a potential use for Jetbikes; a rapid reaction force to screen your important units and objectives from a potential enemy assault.
Why take my word for it though? The EA Training Scenarios feature Assault Marines, and the NetEA website has printable proxies to match the Training Scenarios. You can try all this out, for free, and see how it feels to you. Maybe you'll like it, maybe it'll feel like shit.
Nah, table depth is 120cm, even if you put your foot-sloggin infantry right on the edge of your deplyment zone (15cm), that's only half of the table.
Now fast units have a 30-35cm move, and that's before getting into teleports, drop-pods or air assaults.
That said, the issue isn't "can you move this unit this far". It's more "is it wise to move this far"? Can you support it? Will your opponent allow you to do so (properly deployed scout units can be very awkward to move around)?
Not extreme at all. You do nothing else if you do that, and lose 1 of 3 or maybe 4 possible game turns for that formation while doing it. It does, however, present you with the opportunity to completely redeploy and reorient, which is amazing and in line with maneuver warfare.
Epic Armageddon is a game of movement purporting to represent WW2 to Modern Warfare, and as I once read in the designer's notes of one such grand tactical game "you can never have too much movement".
It feels fricking great while playing.
It's very quick and easy to resolve (one roll, minimal maths) but adds a lot to planning and risk management and to the drama (what's my backup plan if I fail? Do I retain initiative or is it not worth the risk?)
More importantly, as
points out, you get real flavour. My Eldar Guardians are psychically guided and part of a warrior race, but they're still ultimately civilians, so they mostly do what I tell them to until they come under fire. Meanwhile my opponent's Space Marines are hypnoindoctrinated psychopaths with zero self-preservation, so not only do they nearly always do what they're told but they also require a huge amount of firepower to break them, often dying before giving up.
As for
, the truly elite formations often have rules to counteract Blast markers (Space Marines need double blast markers to break, War Engines need extra Blast Markers to break, Fearless units ignore some aspects of being broken, the presence of leaders helps you remove Blast markers etc). Tanks also aren't particularly "elite" on the Epic battlefield, Eldar Falcons come in units of 5+ for example and Imperial Guard tank formations can be huge. My ally on Tuesday night's game rolled up to a huge Necron formation on Tuesday with four Predators and was surprised when they got absolutely munched.
Does the game scale well for small games? Or netepic is better in that regard?
Couldn't tell you how EA compares to NetEpic re small games, but small NetEA games are popular enough that there's a dedicated "Minigeddon" set of rules that adapts the game for smaller table, 1000 point play and that's been used for running tournaments in the past. I'd advise Googling it for the rules pdf and some sample Minigeddon lists.
Minigeddon sounds great I will take a look thanks!
Any opinions on Legion Imperialis so far?
Also show models.
>Any opinions on Legion Imperialis so far?
Lack of armies, different scale, bad system. No real reason to choose it over other systems, at least if you plan to play NETEA and can only find players for Net Epic you can still play without too much change to your army.
Why bad system?
The game is fun, just expensive so I question the popularity in the future.
Rules are good. But lack army variety.
It's horrifically unbalanced, special rule hell, and the assaults are not done well.
Also the aircraft implementation is shit
The rules are good except for the ones that are bad
>show models
>NetEpic Armageddon
Because
The rules are free
Look less complicated than netEpic
Have xenos in them.
>now if only people in my local area played this game so I could find out if I would actually like the game itself.
Play with a friend?
My friends only want to play vidya. I'm the only one in their group that is into miniatures.
Then try to get some additional friends? Any issues with that?
>Then try to get some additional friends?
>Any issues with that?
Thing is the people at the LGS aren't interested in net epic armageddon.
Tabletop Simulator may just be my only option sadly.
I've been watching some youtube vids recently out of curiosity about certain rulesets. I've stumbled on quite a few solo players, mainly interested in seeing how the 'story' of the battle (and their little campaign) plays out and trying to 'roleplay' the commanders somewhat. It's helped by some of the rules having random activations, and I doubt it will ever be quite as satisfying as doing it with good friends. but it CAN be an option (and honestly, it reminds me of playing some of my first wargames in my room a long time ago, in a lifetime far, far away...).
>watching youtube videos of solo play campaign
This seems excessively sad.
I'm on /tg, amigo. Any pretensions I had for street cred have long gone.
It wasn't deliberate - as I said I was looking for play examples of certain rulesets and one or two engaged me enough to check back in occasionally. Truth be told, I should probably do the same (except without the youtube), better than having the toys languish away like Eddie Valiant's bullets...
first get them as good friends then evangelize them with a great demo of your preferred game system.
>Tabletop Simulator may just be my only option sadly.
Its not bad, most armies are fully represented, and its not too clunky either given that in Epic scale no-one is super autistic about positioning.
>Thing is the people at the LGS aren't interested in net epic armageddon.
generally LGS people aren't interested in much of anything. they just want to consume. so unless you're trying to sell them something, best to look elsewhere.
If you don't mind playing with Tabletop Simulator, there's a discord for NetEA that runs games all the time.
Which one uses blast markers? I like that mechanic.
It was 3rd (Epic 40,000), and I agree it was a wonderful mechanic. I always liked 3rd. Only really problem I had was Titans not having a great deal of detail but otherwise it worked for my group (though caveat: we didn't try to break it too much!).
3rd and 4th both use (different) blast marker systems. same idea as amassing suppression markers or pins in a lot of historical games. those systems both focus more on combined arms and maneuver, but as
says the downside is a lack of detail at the unit level which hits titans and other big war engines in particular. whereas 2nd ed focuses more on target priority and special rule powered gameplay, but with the upshot that you get full integration of titanicus and epic rules.
scaleposter's point is clearly that all the things in the image at
are sold as 6mm minis, and the legions imperialis plastic marine isn't an outlier. you can "well akshually" all day, but if you buy minis from a 10mm scifi line like dropzone commander, CAV or planetfall they're not going to match with those at all. theyre gonna be noticeably out of scale. telling anons otherwise, anons who are likely asking the question because they're looking for 3rd party or proxies for epic, is at best ignorant and at worst malicious.
I have not recomended purchasing 10mm models to anyone in this thread, specially when humans are 8mm in the new scale you moron.
I've only played NetEpic Armageddon, but it's been fantastic so far. Great balance of flavour, abstraction and gameability that really makes you feel like the overall commander of a combined arms force.
>white tide
paint your chits
Epic AU and I can't for the life of me find the latest version anymore. Feels batman
Since GW doesn't sell them, is there any good source of thinn plastic 25mm bases? Maye Aliexpress?
I've just done a quick Google search for "25mm counters" and I got this Amazon link. Not saying it's a great deal (it might be) but the keywords might be useful to search for too.
https://www.amazon.co.uk/SmartDealsPro-Plastic-Learning-Counters-Storage/dp/B06Y6K1JJT
Legion Imperialis starter here.
Is there a list of loyalist and traitor for Solar Auxilia ?
Not what you are asking but could help.
i'm gonna build DKoK for NEA and i don't care what people think
>the 40mm x 12mm bases Vanguard sells are TECHNICALLY against the rules
frick the police
how do you figure that?
bases can't be more than 40mm long in any direction
the vanguard long bases are 40mm x 12mm
which means diagonally they'd be more than 40mm
Hang on - weren't the 3rd ed bases 40mm wide to begin with? So 'official' GW bases would be out anyway by that interpretation.
yes, they would be
i think these are the rules for NetEpic Armageddon, not sure if these specific rules are in any of the other Epic games
they probably just need to amend this problem and all will be fine
>which means diagonally they'd be more than 40mm
"diagonally" is not a direction in this sense.
https://tp.net-armageddon.org/rules/
if that's how you interpret this, i won't argue with you
i don't care anyway. long bases look way better
I'd agree with
reading that, especially as the minimum size paragraph only talks about ?mm x ?mm as well. Besides, in every other game I've read, GW or otherwise, hypotenuse measurement has never even been considered.
TLDR: you're being a bit TOO mathematical here, my dude.
i don't care anyway, but i figured it was to prevent people from bringing weirdly shaped bases that are too big
i mean the base size rules are meant to be accommodating to different base shapes and sizes, but not to stuff that might impact the game somehow
i'm still using long bases btw. like i said, i don't care about the rules, i just thought it was weird enough to point out
they're exactly the same dimension as the 3rd ed official bases for the record. so yes, that is a legal size.
somebody already said that and i already responded to it
do the titans from imperialis scale okay with the infantry from vanguard?
yeah they work great
vanguard even has titan crew and titan guard made to go with them
cool thanks bro
is there a lore reason why the titans in legions imperialis are so much bigger than the ones from the old epic sets? did they get retconned to be bigger, or is it just GW bullshit? the infantry don't look much bigger than epic infantry, if at all, so the discrepancy of the titan size is pretty confusing to me
oh and i just want to add i do like the new ones, i will probably use them for epic anyway, just curious if there's some lore or meta reason for the size difference other than "GW upscaling stuff again"
All vehicles in LI are a quarter of the size of their 30k counterparts.
The old Epic Titans were never to scale. The AT/LI stuff is scaled to 25% of what they would be at 28mm scale. That is part of the reason we will probably never see an Imperator Titan in AT/LI because even at the smallest size recorded for Imperators the model would still be close to twice as tall as the biggest AT model currently available, the Warmaster Titan.
>even at the smallest size recorded for Imperators the model would still be close to twice as tall as the biggest AT model currently available, the Warmaster Titan.
well, kinda. that's a little misleading. the body of a warmonger or imperator, going based on how the old model fit in with its line and the more consistent fluff sources, would stand over the warmaster about how the warmaster stands over the warlord. warlord is about 30m to top of the shoulder, warmaster is about 40m, and emp class is about 50m. so in that sense it's not wayyyy out there. still very big of course; you're looking at like a 40k dominus knight or even a little more at that point. but then you've also got the guns and spires on top, which depending on design and source, can increase the height another 50%, sometimes more. that's where you get people quoting 80m or 100m.
so it's do-able. I mean FW does 28mm kits for warlords. it will cost a ton if they ever did it. you could even scale your own by looking at the ratio of old and new warlords here
and then multiplying the old imperator model by the same factor.
and yes, I know there are some sources that have titans (often in general, not just emperor class) being way, way bigger. mountain sized in some cases. but those are inconsistent with both the official models and stats from titan legions, and with the overwhelming majority of other references. they're also usually from notoriously unreliable sources like black library, licensed videogames, or fan art.
So GW can charge more for them. They look nice though, so I'll pay up like everyone else.
It's a mix of scale creep and making shit up as they went along. the first titan models in any gw game were for the original adeptus titanicus, so they didn't need to match or scale with anything. they just were the size. if you back it out from current day FW titans they're about 1:600, or 3mm-ish. but then when they added tanks and infantry, they figured that was too small, so they went with something that would eventually creep to 6mm. and then for like 10 or 15 years the titans stayed at the titan scale, the infantry stayed at the infantry scale, and you just ignored the fact there was no way a pilot could fit in a titan head.
And then meanwhile we got a series of 28mm titans, first the armorcast ones that were scaled up from the epic versions, then a couple generations of FW ones that were scaled crept from those. and then finally a new version of epic scaled back down from those copies of copies, except this time to the infantry scale not a separate titan scale. fun.
Have to say that Much Younger Me didn't get this for so long. I was always puzzled as to why the art had people barely the size of a Warlord's 'eye', but the actual infantry was almost as big as the head.
Regarding the infantry marching discussion, quite apart from being unsupported and likely to simply be free VPs for your opponent, was there not also a penalty to saves/bonus to hits or something involving Marching troops at some point, or am I getting my editions (possibly even games) completely muddled again?
NetEA gets me the most games, so that one. I'd prefer 2nd Ed. Space Marine with Titan Legions and its datacards and all its weaponry insanity but most people simply cannot be fricked with the rules for it.
Where can I find the most recent version of miniggedon? I Don't see it on net epica website.
attached
think your mixing up editions
Isn't it more to it? I thought there where extra specific lists for factions that dont translate well to this mode and other extras.
The Epic Armageddon UK scene has some extras for Minigeddon, you could try Googling that
> supporting the circle jerk that is Epic UK
I'll pass
Who the frick asked you to
The child said "I want the minigeddon rules with all the extra list alterations!" and got an answer
no, not really
it doesn't require much tweaking to work at this size, just limiting some stuff at the edges that would break it.
as the sample lists show you generally want 4 activations at 1000 points just for the game to flow well.