>action RPGs in the 2000s
>Tales
>Kingdom Hearts
>Odin Sphere
>Star Ocean
>Rogue Galaxy
>all play completely different from each other, with different nuances and mechanics with some sequels playing nothing like past entires, even
>action RPGs since 2012 [popular ones, at least]
>Soulslike of varying quality with some outliers, like Dragons' Dogma, KH3, Ys 8, FF7R, and fricking Genshin Impact, which plays terribly, in comparison to these other games
>even parts of the middle market animu scene that used to be the most creative are adopting this style, like Tales of Arise having rest points [but not committing to it by locking saving behind there] and enemies being very hard to stagger or properly combo
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the absolute state of fromcucks
It's a mixed bag. They made the average game player more mechanically aware to a point that game mechanics, character animations etc. now have a higher level of scrutiny and appraisal on average even among normies. On the other hand they homogenized the subgenre into basically one slop.
A game like KH1 plays perfectly fine to this day, though. That said, some of these games, like Tales of Vesperia, start you off with way to little in terms of options.
>A game like KH1 plays perfectly fine to this day, though
lol no it fricking doesn't, it's clunky as frick
?
kh1 is acceptable i guess, but it's not fun, it's just effortless and hollow button mashing
that shit is the reason why souls games took off in the first place. once people realized you could have combat with weight and important decision making and significant penalties for being careless, action games without that now become pointless
>it's just effortless and hollow button mashing
Until you get to the superbosses and some main story ones.
>it's just effortless and hollow button mashing
Riku on fricking destiny island teaches you that just button mashing doesn't work. Especially if you play on Proud
>kh1 plays perfectly fine to this day
It didn't play fine 20 years ago. It was a boring masher slog back then and it is now.
They ACCIDENTALLY made a good game with KH2 and every entry since then has been one step forward two steps back.
There is this dance between consumer education and product stagnation. I wonder if it leads to any real progress or just cycles of resentment.
By the time the generation bread on these games age, they are going to have expectations about gaming and assumptions that probably wont be met as the industry bends itself sideways along another fad in development tendency.
They have a higher level of scrutiny in the sense that they consider there to only be one single effective way that anything should be designed, and if something deviates from that in any way, shape or form or challenges the player in a way not identical then they cry about it being "bad game design" and "unfair" rather than aiming to adapt. This attitude has spread outwards and affected almost everyone playing each game, FromSoft fans just stand out because they have a warped view of even the games they profess to love. In other words, this is all not the fault of FromSoft themselves for the most part, but the secondary fanbase.
It's also quite funny and sad that Ganker thinks itself beyond this when it constantly dances to the tune of mindless shitposters and discord schizoposts forcing pointless fanbase wars because learning and playing games is so hard.
>they consider there to only be one single effective way that anything should be designed, and if something deviates from that in any way, shape or form or challenges the player in a way not identical then they cry about it being "bad game design" and "unfair" rather than aiming to adapt
Name literally 1 example of this
If anything I see people here more commonly screech that Godskins or Malenia bad without ever giving an explanation beyond "I died a lot"
Fromsoft games already are basically the hardest mainstream things out right now and when another hard but well advertised game crops up (Cuphead, any metroidvania that gets popular, Monster Hunter) most people will go "woah....I feckin le LOVE hard games dude I've beaten Dark Souls afterall" but then actually will unironically adapt and enjoy said games (and ironically Ganker is usually the one who cries lol)
Nta but Callisto Protocol pre-nerf was an interesting case study. Most people didn't figure out the gameplay and called it badly designed because they went in with preconceived expectations about how a game should be designed. The general consensus was a lot of pissing and moaning about how the mechanics were braindead and the gameplay too easy, but the game was badly designed because it swarmed you with enemies who would hit you while you were dodging or from behind and it wasn't fair game design. People had no frame of reference to conceive of dodging as anything except a damage-negating reward for correct input timing. CP turned this on its head and made dodging a guaranteed deathtrap that locks you into passivity while you get swarmed by enemies and eventually killed. The clue for this was exactly that dodge didn't require input timing. This alone should have been raising alarm bells and getting people to question why. Instead they just screeched that the game didn't work like every other game. The point I'm trying to make is that it's very very hard to buck design trends, because people will just see it as bad game design. Souls itself suffered from this problem in the early days when people just wanted to hit shit with a sword and win, it wasn't really until Bloodborne that Souls gameplay was broadly "understood" by mainstream audiences.
There was also a mass spergout over Bleak Faith not having I-frames, and a lesser one about Lies of P having fewer than average, as well as for the block timings being different than Sekiro's.
Bleak Faith just had absolutely garbage combat on release, the problem wasn't the lack of I-frames.
t. played it back then and I'm playing it now
Genshin and 7R >>>> all the other games mentioned
Strange thread tbh
>Gacha
>Shitty remake
>Good
Oh wow.
I missed KH3 in the list tbh, it should be with them too.
>Genshin
With it's braindead enemies and terrible boss design?
Arise pisses me off so much since they fricked up the combat so bad.
I think you should have a nice day dilbert
moron take. If not Fromsoft, another company would be putting out good games. Then everyone would copycat those games instead. Fromsoft doesnt have to apologize for making good games. Everyone else needs to apologize for being talentless hacks.
pretty much
Fromsoft is one of the few remaining devs that even try anymore, the other majority just shits out the same shit, really shame millenials blinded by nostalgia and nu-zoomers are trying to excuse this though but thats american corporatism and its consequences for you.
>the other majority just shits out the same shit
They don't just repeat their winning formula, either? AC6 is fairly different, but was made with stuff they learned since DS1.
yeah but they always improve or add something new atleast.
It's not like From and Souls is the first time this has happened. That's how genres are created.
>Fromslop.
>Good games.
Good joke at least.
Hearts
>>Odin Sphere
>>Star Ocean
Galaxy
And all of them are shit. the only good tales games are the xillia ones.
>muh button mashing
I'll remember that next time I hear one a Fromdrone whining about input reading or delayed attacks.
ff7r is (thankfully) nothing like souls
oh sorry im moron xd
>WAAAAAH I CAN'T BUY SHIT GAMES FOR MYY SHIT TASTE!
>FUUUCK FROMSOFT FOR MAKING DIFFICULT GAMES!
Difficult isn't the problem [see KH's data battles], it's the homogenization of the genre, and the death of the idea of "easy to learn, hard to master", with the culling of proper combo material.
Football
ys and dragons dogma are my favourite soulslikes
why didn't you put the blame on monster hunter?
it's older than souls and uses the same formula.
Because MH fans don't barge into other games demanding they play like MH?
OP didn't clarify this.
he just blamed the existence of souls games.
They aren't as influential either, despite their popularity.
Dont really see Souls gays do this much either. Aside the ones that are also Personagays.
>implying From elitists would touch something that "animu"
I know Miyazaki treats Berserk like holy text, but that's the irony of it.
>If anything I see people here more commonly screech that Godskins or Malenia bad without ever giving an explanation beyond "I died a lot"
Muh roll catching and input reading, mostly. Also, as for being the hardest things around, try Yozora on Critical.
Souslike combat is just extremely shitty and boring thankfully Dragons Dogma 2 is coming and we can finally get something that actually feels responsive and fun again.
good morning sir
Dragon's Dogma combat is shitty and it's hard to play something where you can't even run and attack without stopping
Action RPGs from the PS2 era all play like shit without exception. Dark Souls showed everyone how to make a good action RPG. Of course this contrarian board is going to pretend to hate it now that From are mainstream, as everyone said it would back in 2012 when the game started picking up steam.
>Action RPGs from the PS2 era all play like shit without exception
>when KH2 exists
Kingdom Hearts is pure shit.
this tbh can't understand how can someone like it
from a pure gameplay standpoint kh2fm is one of the best action RPGs of all time
>as everyone said it would back in 2012 when the game started picking up steam.
nobody said this, and if anything Dark Souls was as """"""obscure""""""" as it was for as long as it was because both it and Demon Souls are not very good at what they are trying to do from an ARPG perspective. You know what people were saying in 2012?
>OH MANNNNNNNNNN THIS GAME IS SO FRICKING HARD MAN YOU NORMALgayS JUST WOULDN'T GET IT MAN
when in reality it was just that the game had few redeeming qualities. Now it's le best game evah because journos figured out they looked more learned and artiste if they jerked off shit that wasn't The Last of Us every now and again. And Fromsoft has barely improved because of that.
>nobody said this
You were in diapers ten years ago. What do you know?
I obviously know more than you, as you are busy spouting a moronic headcanon you either created for yourself to reinforce your own moron worldview or created for yourself because you were never there in the first place. Which is it?
>I obviously know more than you
As you spout the exact kind of thing everyone knew newbies like you would say in the future. How creative.
I didn't even fulfill your very own fake prophecy, moron. I never once said I hated the games. So please, elaborate more on how "I'm just like how people said it was going to be", I very interested in the other revelations you and the nebulous others had in 2012 that suspiciously shield you and your favorite games from any criticism whatsoever, rightful or otherwise.
Just the fact you brought up journalist opinions at all gives you away as a mindless contrarian.
>I will now pretend that journo opinions aren't both reflective and absorbent of the general public's opinions, and refuse to address the actual point at all
Get shit on, moron.
Journalist opinions are literally irrelevant outside of contrarian morons and console warriors.
Except they aren't, and they especially weren't in 2012. And they certainly aren't to the current conversation. You should really know this.
You are the only one who brought them up. Genuinely nobody cares.
He's right
they did. You're forgetting that most games weren't like Demon Souls/Dark Souls at all. You put a sword and shield in someone's hand and they would immediately run up and try to spam attacks and may be block. Most people didn't play games like DS. You actually have to think about what you're doing. There aren't really that many enemies that aren't able to frick you up. There's very few. I don't think most people were expecting this. It was cool and unique at the time.
Soulsslop is the textbook definition of brainlessly playing in autopilot because all people do, even after both bloodborne and sekiro, is put up the shield and fish for pokes while spamming dodges.
You completely missed what i said. You had to prioritize blocking, circling, and dodging over just hacking away. Even blocking a lot of enemies was bad because you had to get the frick out of their way. You couldn't just stand in front of them. I'm also talking about Demon Soul's and Dark Souls. It got formulaic later on, but the first time i played Dark Souls i remember thinking wtf, why am dying to shitty skeletons at the beginning of the game. I remember trying different routes and dying constantly. I eventually realized that i had to completely change how i was playing. It was very unique at the time. You couldn't just run through not giving a frick. Game would penalize you hard for fricking up. All the encounters felt like they carried weight. One frick up with a simple enemy and he chips away health gotta use a heal. It's a game where you never really feel like you have excess consumables. A game where i was constantly limping across the finish line at times wondering how the frick i made it to the next bonfire. It's formulaic now, but at the time there wasn't anything like it.
>Action RPGs from the PS2 era all play like shit without exception
frick (you).
i liked radiata stories links system.
I get the souls fatigue anon, I really do.
But this is a problem of success creating imitators more than anything.
And the press around this shit because of the terminally online and addictions to YouTube.
you can just say that you're inexperienced with gaming both in scope of genres and in scope of time
because you are
>with some outliers, like Dragons' Dogma, KH3, Ys 8, FF7R, and fricking Genshin Impact, which plays terribly, in comparison to these other games
It's not Fromsoftware fault Dragon's Dogma, KH3, FFXVI, Tales and Genshin Impact are garbage
>like Tales of Arise having rest points [but not committing to it by locking saving behind there]
It's true no video game before demon souls has ever had a checkpoint in a level that healed you and marked where you'd start when you died
The whole industry has been consolidating for a while now. Every shooter became a CoD clone and then when that got old they became overwatch clones. Street racing games are all forza horizon clones. Open world games are assassin's creed clones.
Creativity means risk and risk is something investors rarely accept
>/pol/cuck distraction bait thread #654692263
*yawn*
>It's Mitsubishit fault non-From games are shit
What level of derangement syndrome is this?
That looks fun. Why can't I have more than 4 attacks in Elden Ring without leaving the encounter to change my build?
>Why can't I have more than 4 attacks in Elden Ring
We do
>Normal attacks
>Heavy attacks
>Running light attacks
>Running heavy attacks
>Jumping light attacks
>Jumping heavy attacks
>Backstep attack
>Guard counter
>Charged attacks
>Riposte
>Special skill
>Throwables
>Spells
>Weapon swap
Why the frick are character action games still stuck playing as square square triangle spam with a janky semi-fixed camera?
This isn't the thread for it but it's so utterly bizarre to me that they went this direction with FFXVI. Every element of XVI clashes.
>Super serious western Game of Thrones-style drama with extremely long narrative sequences
>Giant kaiju battle setpieces
>Devil May Cry style combat
It's like they had three different games they wanted to make and just mashed them all together, and then tried to advertise it to western normies.
Because Elden Ring isn't trying to be a character action game. It's utterly bizarre that FFXVI is.
>Every element of XVI clashes
if they had actually added elemental attributes to enemies and your attacks, I think the combat would be less tedious than it is
I don’t agree at all. Elemental attributes would’ve dragged fights to a halt. Imagine being forced to use shiva cause you ran into an enemy that can only be damaged by blizzard. It’s not deep and it’s not fun. There’s a reason character action games don’t have these kind of systems, having a hand hovering over you and forcing you to stop what you’re doing and use a specific move on a specific enemy in fights is lame as hell. Not surprised a combat designer who’s worked on those kind of games opted to remove them for XVI.
you are just pigeonholing the game into random tonal "sectors" and then wondering why it doesn't make sense
the game, among all of the issue it has, doesn't have an issue with the gameplay clashing with the story. you are a literal god amongst men, and people in the narrative treat you as such.
The biggest problem with 16's combat is the lack of RPG elements [party members, elemental weaknesses] and the bosses not hitting hard enough or being aggressive enough.
Also stagger bars, but we can blame FromSoft and FFXIII both for popularizing those.
Souls game stagger is good, unlike the garbage system in FFXVI
Both make you feel like you're hitting a brick wall. At least in Sekiro's case, you fill it up by timing your blocks, but that's a pure action game.
>Both make you feel like you're hitting a brick wall
Play the game
>flinches once 30 seconds into the video
all hits made the enemy flinch/jerk
all of them
0:05 absolutely no reaction
0:07 absolutely no reaction
0:12 absolutely no reaction
0:21 absolutely no reaction
and this is while being generous and counting a millisecond neck twitch as a "reaction" for the other hits. in reality this enemy doesn't react once until it's staggered at 0:30
i will never understand FROMgoys wanking themselves off over the feel of the hits in this game
it looks like you're not even hitting the enemy, even N64 games had better gamefeel
I like it in SoP and Scarlet Nexus, but because you still feel like you're doing something while filling it up. SoP lets you throw spells back at the enemy, and SN still has hitstun on bosses, with the stagger bar mostly working to gate off finishers.
I really liked SN combat
shit
Hearts
shit
>>Odin Sphere
shit
>>Star Ocean
gigashit
Galaxy
shit
Sounds like From saved action RPGs
I don't know why people like souls combat so much. It feels like you're fighting underwater.
It's good that it tests your decision making but it doesn't test your reflexes at all
>but it doesn't test your reflexes at all
and that's a good thing.
souls 3 and elden ring do. sadly.
what kind of moronic zoomer doesn't realize trend chasing was always a thing, and if it hadn't been Dork Souls MUH HARD CAMPFIRE DROP YOUR EXP LOL it would've been something else, probably even worse.
moronic fricking zoomers.
That's a funny way of saying that they gave birth to a new subgenre and essentially revived ARPGs.
So basically OP is saying he hates Fromsoftware because they make good games and everyone else doesn't/can't
Did I get that right?
>It's Fromsoftware's fault Arise and Genshin are bad
uh?
Yeah I don't get what OP is saying. Honestly looks like Fromsoftware is named just to bait (You)s
>dodge happens at button release and not press
All souls games are automatically garbage vomit trash by default
>Lights and heavies that dont combo into each other
>One skill per weapon
>Still using the same trash combat system from 2009
All souls games are laughably bad and people who think they are good are scrubs who never played a good action game in their lives. Kindly have a nice day fromhomosexuals.
Jesus christ dilbert, what happened here?
Soulslike games aren't my cup of tea and Fromgays can be really obnoxious, butI can't really get too worked up about it since these kind of trends happen every decade.
>90's was an endless stream of mascot platformers
>2000's was brown-grey dudebro shooters
>2010's was open world survival/exploration
>2020's is shaping up to be for Soulslike
Some random game will get really popular sometime in the latter half of this decade and in the 2030's you'll see dev teams of every size making games for that specific genre until the money dries up.
Monster Hunter is the only good action game.
RPGs in the 2000s
Hearts
>>Odin Sphere
>>Star Ocean
Galaxy
>>all play completely different from each other,
and they were all shit
except odin sphere
All it did was make it easier to filter out the garbage, nobody with an ounce of self respect is going to make soulsslop, just like nobody with a grain of self respect is going to let the unity splash screen remain in their game.
Play Genshin Impact
>mods
Also the boss design there is pitiful. Decent 3D platformer, though.
they have swimming now? Haven't played since 1.0
>Souls-like
>Lists games that came out before darksouls
can you bait better?
You know how a before and after works, right?
BOTW and FROMslop caused irreparable damage to the industry by showing devs they don't even have to put in any effort at all in engaging high octane gameplay, instead they can make generic slop that would be slow by SNES standards and just keep pissing away money on le graphix and literally everyone will ejaculate from how shit their character feels to control because MUH REALISM.
They could always make a game that's is in between. Allows for the ability to move faster. May be even punishes you if you don't.
Nioh's pretty fun.
>no party members to swap between in combat
>world is almost always dead
>story is almost always vague and cryptic instead of directly told, with some extra tidbits in the background for those who love lore
If Soulslikes are taking over the genre, can we at least get a fully controllable party, a world that can still be saved featuring lively towns to relax between dungeons, and actually see characters develop with our own eyes?
Lmao fricking go play DMC5 or some shit if you want combos.
Anything between that and Souls is garbage.
souls likes are the only RPGs that seem to give a shit about the gameplay being any bit challenging whatsoever
Report back to me after a Critical/Unknown playthrough of a KH/Tales game.
I love how Western games don't even exist to some people. Actually braindamaged board of terminal weebness. You will never be Japanese you fat moron
Bloodlines and Diablo weren't known for their moment-to-moment combat, though their action games like GoW 1-3 and the Ghost Rider game were pretty good.
That’s because western devs honest to god cannot make good action games besides PS2 god of war. They suck ass at it.
Darksiders and Kingdoms of Amalur are moderately fun, and that's just in the AAA/AA space.
this. They've obviously not AAA quality but they each have their charm
Furi is one of the few exceptions, and it is forever disappointing that they never decided to revisit the action genre.
Hearts
>>Odin Sphere
>>Star Ocean
Galaxy
Jedi Survivor is better than all those. More difficult and more responsive. Try again next time shizotroony.
It's pretty fun when it wants to actually not stutter so bad combat becomes turn-based, but it's also more of an action-adventure game like Sekiro, though.
>patch 7 was apparently the last
>still stutters
I hate modern AAA PC ports.
Miyazaki invented
- That games can be difficult
- Checkpoints
- That you can lose progress
- That you can press a button to magically phase through an enemy attack and then attack in response yourself
- That the European middle ages are all dark and depressing
- That a boss can be so big that the whole fight is a duel with its toes
Any questions?
Add these to the list:
- Character builds.
- The fact stats matter instead of the game being balanced around level scaling.
- Respawning enemies and grinding for EXP.
- Gear sets.
- Lore done through item descriptions and codex entries.
- Killable NPCs.
- Games that are actual games instead of 99% cutscenes.
Arpgs were already irrepairably damaged in Japan by the psp Monster Hunter games. If anything at least DS stopped the downward spiral of everything being made increasingly easy.
why do FROMgoys always keep trying to shift the blame to MH?
is it because MH is just soulsslop but better in every way?
No. Every other developer trying to ride their coattails is to blame. For the few gems we get like Lies of P there's 100 failures. FromSoft did nothing wrong.