>G-Darm is busted. He's like the 2nd most used pokemon, with a 33% usage rate
>Lando-t is balanced. He's like the #1 used pokemon , with 45% usage rate.
Why, just why?
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>G-Darm is busted.
I hate Smogon but it's true
usage is not an argument BUT Garm is busted like obviously it is
You moron, the only reason they banned G-Darm at all was to make sure Lando-t wouldn't have any competition
False. It had nothing to do with Lando.
They banned G-Darm because it threatened stall.
Wrong. Stall and fat balance had nothing to fear from Darm. It's normal teams that were forced to sack 1 every time that fricker got in
>Stall and fat balance had nothing to fear from Darm
Black person it gets two choice bands you are just straight fricking mathematically wrong
That's always the stall Smoggy defense. They can't accept that something was banned because stall can't take it so they always so "ummm ackshully stall can tank da hits". Whether it's Galarian Darmanitan, Cinderace, Dracovish, or Dynamax.
homie LITERALLY NOTHING COULD WALL THIS THING
I FRICKING HATE STALL
YOU WANT TO FIX THIS MEME?
CHANGE LANDO INTO TOXAPEX
THIS THING IS JUST STUPIDץ
What's wrong with Toxapex?
So cancerous that even most smogongays hate it (pic related)
The only ones who like it are tourneygays because stall is better for tournaments.
Keep in mind that the vast majority of smogon players only play the ladder, but smogon still makes rulings that heavily favor tournaments.
Seriously, any issue you might have with smogon probably came about because of tourneygays b***hing.
Garm does like two things and both are about just dealing damage. Nyando can be offensive or defensive and thus fits into more teams. This isn't rocket science.
yeah. saying "why Lando more used than Garm" would be like saying "why Snorlax more used than Blissey"
>Glass cannon/specialist bad.
>Defensive attacker that can do more than one thing good.
Smogon just hates simple solutions because they think it makes competitive too boring. Simple as.
We already have a thread up, butthole.
It's about to hit the bump limit and lando-t homosexuals are still in denial, the education must continue
A lot of stuff can switch into Lando without getting 2hko. Lando is used more because it can fill more roles, not because it breaks teams apart for free.
You must have at least a minimum of the following before posting ITT:
IQ:85
Elo:1300
Degree:High school
G-Darm was too centralizing in the sense that if you did not build your team around always countering it you automatically lost.
With that said G-Darm could run band and scarf at the same time, with insane coverage AND ice stab.
Even for gen 8 powercreep it was overwhelming.
With that said, Lando is still a piece of shit and I HATE that's been barely affected by dexit, Frick that thing.
>could run band and scarf at the same time, with insane coverage AND ice stab.
AND 140 Base Attack, lol
How is lando-t not centralized? You are aware that he is number 1 in usage?
>How is lando-t not centralized?
Because you don't have to go
"I need these two Pokemon on my team or I automatically lose" when factoring in Lando-T, unlike basically every banned Pokemon in existence.
>But swinub used powder snow! Lando so easy to beat!
Amirite fellow council troony?
>I can't beat a pokemon with a single working stab, sub 100 speed, mediocre bulk and zero recovery moves
We're back to talking about g darm?
>Sub 100
>When it can get a choice scarf with no side effects
>Comparing 140 stab in a type with an immunity and weakness to grassy terrain to 140+1 minimum with the best offensive stab in the game.
>machop used bullet punch!
Woah, so hard
You do realize Machamp needs to switch in to hit it? Please just post your elo already so we can laugh.
>252 Atk Gorilla Tactics Darmanitan-Galar Icicle Crash vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Machamp: 262-310 (81.6 - 96.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after burn damage
AHHHHH SAVE ME LANDO T
>Gets slammed with 90% on switch in (assuming there's no rocks and it's scarf)
>Switches back out into Toxpex or literally any other machamp counter to only lose 33% of health.
>H-Haha! I won because you switched out...
>switch in weavile on lando risking getting OHKO by stone edge
>lando switches out into toxapex
>H-Haha! I won this argument because I am a hypocrite and ignore equivalent situations where lando is broken
>Baiting this poorly
No one told you to switch weavile into Landorus. Just use something obvious like Corviknight/Tangrowth. This is assuming it's running stone edge when it usually doesn't because it loses utility moves for it. Also Toxpex still can get hit with knock off or you can set up with sword dance during the switch in.
>Switch anything else into landorus
>gets hit with knock off and crippled
>gets ohko or severely damaged by stone edge or eq
>gets chip damaged and momentum swapped on by uturn
>gets hit with a free stealth rocks
Ahhh yes, great choices. Machamp can also hit pex with knock off btw
>>gets hit with knock off and crippled
? Yes. There is punishments for switching out but losing an item usually isn't the end of the world if it's just something like helmet or leftovers
>>gets ohko or severely damaged by stone edge or eq
Like I said, landorus barely runs stone miss and eq only hits grounded mons. If grassy terrain is up, then it does nothing.
>>gets chip damaged and momentum swapped on by uturn
Okay you made a bad prediction
>>gets hit with a free stealth rocks
Okay. Get your defogger out.
There's a lot you can do. Just give it a good whack with a special move and It'll rethink its options.
>g-darm is busted because every body who use him can make perfect predictions.
G-Darm predicts right, you lose a Pokemon. You have to continually guess correctly or it just deletes a Pokemon from your team. It's not just 1 time you have to outpredic the G-Darm user, it's ever time.
Dude, it's literally choice lock.
You can switch it in and out no problem. As long as you don't sacc it, it can just switch out and something like Swampert can Flip Turn it back in. It's so strong it even dominates Ubers.
Fricking Ferro. What a chad
Unova Privilege strikes again.
>Best offensive stab in the game
Hard disagree here, That honor goes to the ghost type.
Ghost has an immunity working against it and only works on 2 types, one that was bad to begin with.
Ice hits 4 types, 2 which are top tier, have no immunities to the hit and only resisted by two types (one in this case because thr other gets slammed by flare blitz, rock slide, superpower or whatever it wants with its ridiculous movepool)
See the problem is that immunity that normal has is almost worthless because the only normal pokemon worth anything is blissey. The other type that resists Ghost being dark is very popular but most of them are quite frail in the case of both Weavile and Bisharp. It's mainly only tyranitar and blissey that really hinder Ghost types and that's easily stopped with fighting coverage which a lot of Ghosts get. Meanwhile all of Water, Fire and Steel are very common and resist Ice, There's a reason spectrier which had a laughable movepool is banned and it's mainly because Ghost is just really strong offensively. Ice is only the second best offensive type in my opinion.
I never said that you 3rd world chimp.
>G-Darm was too centralizing in the sense that if you did not build your team around always countering it you automatically lost.
I used Rotom-Wash against it. You could also use Rotom-Heat or defensive Gyarados.
Calling Darm-G centralizing isn't really true because it barely stayed in the OU meta before getting banned right after dynamax.
In natdex, it stayed around until Isle of Armor due to the presence of actual broken shit like Mega Blastoise in the tier. And then it was mass banned alongside Urshifu-SS, Ash-Greninja, and Mega Metagross for creating a good stuff mono format.
In spite of its power, G-Darn is basically the only Ice type in Gen VIII that cannot make use of the Heavy Duty Boots. Band and Zen Mode sets, while viable, are much worse than the scarf set that usually 2HKOs at worst most offensive Pokemon. So it basically only ran one set and couldn't get over the SR weakness unlike say Kyurem.
Do you honestly think that if the OU council decided to re-test G-Darm in OU that it wouldn't get a 70%+ "do not unban" vote? Also, it can run HDB, and quite well, too. It's not just a targeted nuke of an attacker, it's also a decent pivot.
>Do you honestly think that if the OU council decided to re-test G-Darm in OU that it wouldn't get a 70%+ "do not unban" vote?
No, because the only players left in OU like the current meta. And this is Finch's fault for the original quickban in the first place, as years of an awful meta drove players away to other metas like Gen IV.
you wrote this like a yt video script
try again shillgay
why does /vp/ keep b***hing about landorus-therian defeating their shit teams. post your elo.
low elo losers complain about landorus-therian because “ITS USED A LOT” even though Snover used Ice Shard!
high elo gods complain about toxapex who has never been suspected ever, has regenerator, has reliable recovery, can’t be poisoned, and for some reason has haze so you can’t set up on it
this
>troony tier system is based on usage
>"yea it's used alot, but just ignore that!"
Smoggie mental gymnastics kek
do you not know how teirs work? OU is the highest usage based tier which is why Lando is there. Ubers is a banlist for things that are broken in OU, it has nothing to do with usage.
And no. Lando is NOT broken, is versatile but it is not broken because you don't need to kneecap your team to be able to defeat it.
>almost 50% usage
>not broken
Clearly it's doing something unusually well, like compressing multiple roles while having a high BST. But you homosexuals will just ignore it as usual because you have a furry genie cat to beat off to
>Clearly it's doing something unusually well, like compressing multiple roles while having a high BST
Doesn't matter, anything with an ice move can defeat it it easily. switching into it isn't even that hard since its unlikely to 2 hit KO anything since its not particularly fast, ans there are plenty of viable pokemon that resist its attacks.
>furry genie cat to beat off to
If they love furries so much, why did they ban Cinderace?
Yea cause things like weavile take a stone edge super well.
>If they love furries so much, why did they ban Cinderace?
They love one furry, lando t. There's probably a starfish fricker on the council too so pex gets a pass too
>anything with an ice move can defeat it it easily.
Why are landogays liars?
Weavile the strongest ice type.
252 Atk Weavile Ice Shard vs. 252 HP / 164+ Def Landorus-Therian: 208-252 (54.4 - 65.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Lando-t will just u-turn.
Landorus-Therian U-turn vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Weavile: 198-234 (70.4 - 83.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Don't forget the intimidate drop in a situation where you open with weavile against it. Lando gays love to conveniently forget it exists
I'm not saying you're a liar but you do understand that not posting landos evs and nature in the second calc makes you come off as hiding information right?
It's 0 attack defense lando.
I'm aware, I'm just saying that it's probably best to post the whole calc so people don't either have to go check themselves or assume you're trying to hide information.
What about that calc looks suspicious? Play the games.
I'm sorry king autist I didn't have every possible combination memorized and had to check calcs for myself. Sorry for trying to help you morons, I've learnt my lesson.
You don't have to memorize anything. Just don't be a moronic gay.
>not adamant
>no life orb or any boosting item on weavile
moron
Weavile runs boots 99% of the time you genie penis slurping homosexual
>glass cannon that dies to any attack
>caring about stealth rock when it dies to any attack
>caring about hazards
Only stallgays use or remove hazards
Weavile runs boots a little over 50% of the time. Also, that same set (Jolly boots) OHKOs Lando every time with Triple Axel
>252 Atk Weavile Triple Axel (40 BP) (3 hits) vs. 252 HP / 164+ Def Landorus-Therian: 624-756 (163.3 - 197.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
>everytime
What happens when you miss part or all of triple axel?
Same thing that happens if landorus misses with stone edge
But you keep assuring us that lando rarely ever uses stone edge because it losses utility. How often does lando miss knock off, uturn, and earthquake again?
All of those are 100% accurate moves unlike Stone Miss
Yea, so your go to counter for lando is weavile and praying you hit all three triple axels and don't get the 40% miss? But lando gets a pass with a full 100% accuracy set
Weebvile only needs to land 2 Triple Axels to KO Lando
To potentially KO, it's not gaurenteed
>40% miss
Triple Axel has a 90% accuracy rate. It's an 81% chance to get two hits or 73% to get three hits. But for the rest of that it depends entirely on the set and scenario. After Intimidate, whether it's a banded or setup Weavile, if Lando is bulky vs offensive etc. Whether you need two or three hits can quickly be checked by if the damage % is higher than 200. If it's higher than 200%, it's gonna OHKO on two hits of Triple Axel. If it's got a range that covers 200, it's a chance. If it never breaks 200, it needs all three to OHKO.
Just a few examples.
>-1 252 Atk Weavile Triple Axel (40 BP) (3 hits) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Landorus-Therian: 540-648 (169.2 - 203.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO (chance to OHKO on two, probably wants three hits)
-1 252+ Atk Choice Band Weavile Triple Axel (40 BP) (3 hits) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Landorus-Therian: 900-1056 (282.1 - 331%) -- guaranteed OHKO (clean OHKO)
>-1 252+ Atk Choice Band Weavile Triple Axel (40 BP) (3 hits) vs. 252 HP / 164+ Def Landorus-Therian: 696-828 (182.1 - 216.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO (definitely possible but might want 3 hits)
-1 252 Atk Weavile Triple Axel (40 BP) (3 hits) vs. 252 HP / 164+ Def Landorus-Therian: 408-504 (106.8 - 131.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO (absolutely needs all three hits)
You will never kill any version of lando with a single hit triple axel because it's 20bp. Which means at best case scenario your ability to answer the thing you supposedly counter is an 80% accuracy move, at worst case it's 70% accuracy.
>can't switch into it freely
>can't always kill it
>can get ohko back
WEAVILE IS NOT A RELIABLE ANSWER TO LANDO T
Damn so Lando doesn't reliably OHKO Weavile then? It has to rely on a 80% accuracy move on its bulky sets and can't reliably swap into Weavile because it'd eat shit from a Triple Axel. It's almost like they're closer to a 50/50 and I was just laying out the calcs. I swear the landogays are better than the antilandos just because they don't blindly screech at people just laying out numbers.
You morons are literally pushing weavile as this magical silver bullet super easy hard counter to lando. The fact that lando has a 50/50 coin toss on BTFOing its ultimate counter is unreal, and yet you absolute homosexuals refuse to admit how broken it is. That's why your little council is a joke and people call smogon a fanfic meta
I literally just laid out that you're screeching over numbers without an agenda and you literally do the exact same thing. Read a room moron.
>I'm just laying out numbers fellow neutral posters! Landogays are bad, but aren't those antilandogays worse haha?
Ywnbaw
Yeah, you're objectively worse. Ywnbam.
>I may have a nearly dead sweeper but I was able to force out Landorus-T once or twice
>not Adamant or item boosted
>using Ice Shard despite the fact that Weavile outspeed Lando-T in almost every scenario
abortion should be legal for specimens like you
SE moves can wreck Galarian Darmanitan and Dracovish, so I guess those aren't broken either?
Lando doesn't hit anywhere as hard as those two. You can switch usually into Lando, you can't switch into to Garm or Draco
>Doesn't matter, anything with an ice move can defeat it it easily
Remember the last time they allowed Genesect in OU? Didn't end up well, did it?
Landorus' offense is not very relevant since it crippled your Attack stat, and it's U-Turning into something to counter
The distribution of U-Turn is so fricking stupid
It's doing several things very well which makes it an appealing choice for multiple play styles and team comps. But it can't run all of them at once and whatever it runs is usually picked to synergize with a team comp rather than to be the win condition itself. Most things Lando does has another Pokemon that does it slightly better. So if the other Pokemon aren't the problem, why would Lando be a problem for doing their job slightly worse?
Except for the fact that magearna was banned for this exact reasoning.
Magearna was banned because it did several things extremely well. Lando-T does several things pretty well. Plus, Lando-T isn't an omnipresent sweep-threatener.
Obviously landorus does several things extremely well. It doesn't top the usage charts for no reason. I don't remember but did Magearna ever get near 50% usage? Landorus is good because it does a lot of things and arguably does role compression even better than magearna did. Lando can fill the role of a rock setter, an offensive pivot and Utility all in one set. Lando arguably has a better ability as well. I actually think Lando and Magearna are the best comparison to make when comparing it to a banned mon because if Lando ever did get banned then it'd be the same reason as magearna.
It tops the usage chart because every team can use Lando for a different reason. Pivot, hazard setter, hazard remover, Electric immunity, etc. It can be used on every team archetype except for Hail, and it often is used as a glue-mon to hold the team together if a better alternative hasn't been found
At the end of the day Smogon likes Lando because it slows the pace of the game down; it sets intimidate and pivots and can never sweep on its own because it has no setup move. Smogon HATES HATES HATES win conditions and sweeping, their ideal game is just various walls and wall breakers pivoting for position.
>and can never sweep on its own because it has no setup move.
>Swords Dance on a Pokemon with 92 base speed and no way to boost speed without Dynamax
lol. lmao even
Hi smogon council. Second troony orgy get out early?
Man you're really obsessed with trannies having sex anon. You got something to share with the class?
I read the smogon decision to not suspect test lando t, it was one paragraph of cope and 90 pages of graphic transsexual porn..
I'm not saying swords dance lando is great, but it CAN set up. You could probably make it work with sticky web support. It can do literally anything, because it's stacked as shit. Watch them give it Geomancy or some shit in SV.
Sounds like you got your tabs confused anon, not seeing any of that. Stop watching so much troony porn, especially in the middle of other discussions.
You're right, it was the g darm ban decision that had the trannie porn
I am explicitly calling Smogon homosexuals that want the game to be slow which is why Lando is given the treatment it is, saying "b-but it can run swords dance" is moronic Lando doesn't have the ability to sweep like that.
>rock polish doesn't exisr
>2 move slots on a Pokemon with STAB that is resisted or outright non-effective against 1/2 of the tier and no secondary STAB
>Landorus@Life Orb
>252 attack/252 speed/4 spdef
>Rock Polish
>Swords Dance
>Earthquake
>Fly
If you lose to this set you should actually have a nice day, I'm not kidding. I don't want your moron genetics in the human gene pool if you can't think your way around this one.
>no way to boost speed without Dynamax
>what is Rock Polish
hey, I know it's not common but you're full of shit
>>Fly
send help
>Hurr let me just swords dance and sweep with 91 speed and ground stab in a game where everyone and their mother runs flying
Less than 11% of all Lando sets run Swords Dance. If you filter out the scrubs by setting it to 1825+ elo, that number drops to just 6.8% of sets.
Magearna was mainly used as an offensive mon, either a wallbreaker with the Specs set (which had no actual answers, as Trick fricked Blissey over) or as a sweeper with those cancerous Stored Power sets
Offensive Lando-T isn't half as good as Magearna was as a wincon
Specs locked it into a single move which could be taken advantage of. Especially by Magnezone. It's speed isn't doing it any favors either. Just because something can't directly switch into everything magearna throws at it doesn't mean there isn't ways to deal with it. Because those type of pokemon are usually heavily prediction reliant. Not like say Dracovish in which all you are doing is clicking fishous rend over and over again. Those stored power sets could be screwed over by the move taunt or phasing. It also kept a lot of dangerous offensive mons in check.
The problem is that Magearna could run all those sets viably on every team. You couldn't predict what its function was unless the team was otherwise comprised of 3 set up sweepers and it's highly unlikely Mag would be the 4th.
Each set also had highly specific checks, though no counters. Unlike Lando, who can at most set up rocks or U-Turn in your face, Magearna could run away with a game if you predict the set wrong. There's also no way to fit the check to every set it has onto your team. Meanwhile Landorus gets checked by every Water and Ice type as well as every bulky special attacker.
>Meanwhile Landorus gets checked by every Water and Ice type as well as every bulky special attacker
We literally just proved that weavile, the best ice type, does not reliably deal with lando. Out of rain barraskewda doesn't even guarantee the OHKO normally, and with intimidate proc it's fricked.
>-1 252+ Atk Choice Band Barraskewda Liquidation vs. 252 HP / 164+ Def Landorus-Therian: 246-290 (64.3 - 75.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Meanwhile lando can potentially, although rarely, OHKO it back with eq
>0 Atk Landorus-Therian Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Barraskewda: 223-264 (84.7 - 100.3%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
No one runs bulky Lando
Didn't heatran check most magearna sets though. I know some ran aura sphere but Heatran should have an effective matchup all around, Magnezone fits into this as well. Magearna's flaws are something that every decent team should have as well. A good fire and ground move attacker, Most teams have a mon that have more than base 65 speed which means you can lay on the offensive pressure, Obviously not a good idea mentioning this but Magearna was probably the best check to itself. Aegislash could probably fit into this category as well. I do understand why it was banned, Being stupidly versatile with very limited checks is busted, Also on U-turn, I personally feel like that move is broken and should be suspected itself same goes for it's clones, All of those moves allow you to keep momentum while dealing chip damage. It's too riskless not to use. Mon's like Garm and Cinderace would be a lot easier to handle if they didn't have U-turn imo.
Magearna could easily deal with Heatran either through the Aura Sphere sets (less common) or the Volt Switch sets (which were common, and would easily wear down Heatran, with it taking roughly 25-40% depending on what it switched into and if rocks were up).
Magnezone was also set up fodder for Magearna depending on the set. It lost HP Fire this generation, and all it had were the gimmicky Iron Defense + Body Press sets which lose to variations of the set up Magearna or Specs, which could bust down all but AV Magearna.
Magearna also fit onto Trick Room teams perfectly, and at +2 speed (it has Shift Gear) it can easily outspeed 99% of the tier. Any check was only a potential check, and Magearna always had a way out. At higher levels of play it was nearly impossible to guess what switched and and scared it out safely, since high level players know how to maximize Magearna's unpredictability. It was a Sword of Damocles just hanging over your head, and you'd never know when it'd drop.
The thing is: Landorus is a very good mon, and it's very versatile, so having Landorus almost always will help you win if you're a good player. But as a player facing Landorus, you don't have to prepare your team for it specifically, since the 4 main ways to deal with it (Water, Ice, Toxic and Burn) are quite common and useful outside of this purpose and, even without any of them, Lando will be worn down eventually by neutral moves or chip damage. On Vish, or Gdarm cases, the player either have specific tools to deal with them (which are suboptimal in most other cases) or have to sack one or two important mons of their own, thats the difference you refuse to understand
>people use it a lot therefore its broken
Holy shit homie
Hi smogon council. Gay orgy let out early today?
https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/ubers-is-now-a-tier-a-new-metagame-called-anything-goes-is-added-m-ray-is-banned-from-ubers.3523205/
Ubers has been a tier since 2014.
Its not an usage-based tier tho, you could check the actual thing instead of secondhand info to avoid looking like an idiot
>you could check the actual thing instead of secondhand info to avoid looking like an idiot
Chaos, the guy who made the post in that link, is literally the creator of smogon
Do you have basic reading skills? OP said OU is the highest USAGE-BASED tier, not the highest tier overall. Ubers isn't usage based.
based moron
t. low elo, low iq shitposter
post your elo
Show me a SINGLE game where Landorus does something broken. I'll wait.
Usage has nothing to do with balance.
usage doesn't mean something is more or less OP, that being said frick lando, frick pex, frick regenerator
Literally everyone knows Lando T is broken as frick, only paid smogon shills disagree
>fanfic meta
>the landogays, defeated, return to the smogon council room for another round of buttsex in fursuits
ITT: Wolfey shills. Literally nobody was calling for Lando to banned/dexcut until he made that video.
Why would anyone shill for a cheater?
>lando is baisically a dozen pokemon in one, it can run scarf, it can run setup sweeper, it can run bulky support, it can be a cleaner, it can run lead, it can be anything baisically
>darm can run choice scarf gorilla, choice band gorilla and... well...
What else is Darmanitan supposed to do using Gorilla Tactics?
There is no additional downside for using Choice Band or Choice Scarf, so there is 0 reason to run LO, Expert Belt, NMV, ect.
At best, you could do an easily stoppable Belly Drum set or HDB (I tried it and it sucks)
>What else is Darmanitan supposed to do using Gorilla Tactics?
Nothing. That's the point. 35% of the meta is the same gorilla, and it still works regardless of the remaining 11 mon on the field.
Meanwhile with Lando its 50% usage is split between, say, 10% setup Lando, 10% scarf Lando, 10% support Lando, etc. All of those Landos are different, they are all tailor-built for their team, and might as well be different Pokemon, so that 50% usage is deceptive.
>same pokemon
>NO THEY ARE DIFFERENT SEE UH.. IT JUST IS!
>magerna
>many different sets
>bad
>g darm
>3 different sets
>bad
>lando t
>more sets than the other two combined
>good, no problem here, no need to ban
Magerna is too steamrolly and volatile, and not in a "it's shit but can destroy entire teams if you support it", but in "it is strong naturally and can also destroy entire teams if the opponent doesn't counter it specifically". No matter the set, you just snowball with not-Moxie if the enemy doesn't stop you.
Lando is strong but baisic all things considered.
In other words
>Sweepers bad
>Bulky pivot good
Bulky pivots aren't game winners. Lando is basically just slightly better Swampert with U-turn instead of Flip Turn. They're glue-mons that hold your team together, not ruinously good unpredictable sweepers.
Sweepers are supposed to need support, not delete entire teams from turn 1.
>Sweepers are supposed to need support
Yes that's an artificial scenario created by Smogon's balance philosophy that "supports and walls have no upper threshold on how powerful they are allowed to be while offensive sweepers are judged based on their impact on the meta"
It doesn't have to be a "game winner" to be OP. If Lando enables another mon to win the game the mon it enabled is not the "winner"
It's not op because it isn't a game winner. It's just a solid Pokemon that enable game winning Pokemon and strategies by being the best bulky pivot around. It's as threatening as Swampert and is easily lured and killed or revenge killed (by Weavile, for example)
>easily lured and killed or revenge killed (by Weavile, for example)
Woah there speedposter, why don't you start at the top of the thread before posting this time
Your only counter to the Weavile bit is your moronic calculation using a set that no one uses. Physically defensive Lando just does not exist. It doesn't even make the top 8 most used sets for the Pokemon. Saying Weavile doesn't counter Lando because of one specific, never used set is ridiculous.
It's not that, there's plenty of good sweepers allowed in OU, moreso than bulky pivots. But as I said before, sweepers are less forgiving and have more weight on the overall game and thus more prone to be banworthy
Same species, completely different Pokemon.
Species clause plays a really twisted joke with Lando actually, it fricking wishes it was 10 different Pokemon so you could have multiples of it, but it can't, so committing to one Lando means you can't have other Landos on the team. Meanwhile committing to, say, Belly Drum Zen Darm just makes your Darm shit.
>Lando doesn’t centralize the meta brah, it just forces you to also use a Lando
Lando-T is the only Pokémon that CANNOT be banned by Smogon.
If it got Roost and actual Flying STAB it'd be banned.
Nah, they’d just ban roost.
Why, that would hurt stall
Why do you let Smogon and stall live rent free in your head?
>In generation 7 the ou council assured that landorus therian would not be banned even if it reached more than 95% usage
In other words, it's unbannable. GF could break it to Zacian tier and they still won't budge.
It was unbannable in its current incarnation. Nothing about it is too strong. If it got buffed and became too much for the tier, it'd be banned. Landorus-T is currently not too much for OU. It has a plethora of counters and checks, it has no recovery so it gets worn down easily, and there are several Pokemon stronger, faster, and bulkier than it, sometimes simultaneously (Kartana) that aren't being complained about.
>it gets used a lot, so it must be banned from the tier called OVERUSED
But I can use mons in NeverUsed anon chan
No you can't. Using lower tiered Pokemon is illegal, so sayeth /vp/
imagine missing the joke this bad
Imagine missing my joke that badly
Munchlax female
Eviolite
Counter
Stockpile
Lando is a staple pivot, not a broken sweepermon that doesn't take any IQ to set up.
>press u-turn after Lando crippled an offensive threat with Intimidate
>send in a counter
Such a high IQ play, that one
You idiots arguing whether or not Weavile is a counter to Landorus-T and yet there are plenty of good Grass types in the tier who can tank an Earthquake and threaten it out multiple times?
Literally just use Ferrothorn, Rillaboom, or Tangrowth if you get easily filtered by Lando.
>"every Water and Ice type is a counter to lando, he's totally not broken h-haha"
>gets disproven multiple times
>"oh I actually meant grass types were the hard counter to lando, he's still t-totally not broken I swear!"
If we run calcs again are you going to say electric types were the real answer all along?
You disproved no one. In fact, I disproved you since no one runs that set you're suggesting.
The thing is a sweeper/wallbreaker like Darm, Draco or some Mag sets needs to have hard counters (or at least reliable checks) not to be broken, since failing to stop them usually means game over. For mons like Lando, having soft checks is enough since its usually defensive or a pivot so its not making that much harm in return. A momentum controller as good as Lando is a great addition to any team, but is rarely a wincon. Also, there's a lot of mons that have a good or neutral matchup against Landorus without being specifically built for that. Magearna required dedicated checks to each of its sets, Lando is checked casually by any team built in a non moronic way
It doesn't matter if it's rarely a Wincon, it's such a great addition to any team that the entire OU meta essentially revolves around it. Ffs, just make a 6v6 lando only mode at this point
When teambuilding, preparing specifically for Lando is not really necessary, (no more than accounting for Pex, Ferro, Clef, Kart, etc...). Water is one of the best types so you will most likely want a Water-type mon regardless of Landorus, Ice is pretty good coverage against many other things (Chomp, Dragapult, Flying types...) and Flying is such a common type that you might usually have an inmunity against its only usable STAB. Compare this with Magearna, Cinderace, Dracovish... where the checks were often subpar against most other stuff and mispredictions on the opposing side were way less forgiving
No, but you see, Smogon is bad and Landorus counters my gay boyfriend Regieleki. I want Landorus banned so I can more easily use Regieleki in OU without having to think
>236 Atk Life Orb Diglett Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Regieleki: 421-499 (139.8 - 165.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
How will you beat diglett if lando t gets banned?
>G-Darm
Stall teams where every mon had some Protect variant was the only consistent answer to it, every other team lost a mon when it got in which was easy with how many volturn mons there are plus the teleport buff.
>Clefable can get literally any mon in for free in base Swsh AND heal it
>It's to the point where people are openly saying any team without Clefable is outright worse
Gdarm unironically dindu nuffin, you only have to hit it once and force it out and SR gets it too low to do anything.
G-darm gets destroyed by shadow tag wobuffet
252+ Atk Choice Band Gorilla Tactics Darmanitan-Galar Icicle Crash vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Wobbuffet: 397-468 (67.9 - 80.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
>destiny bond if darm already switched in
>counter if predicted switch
whats trandsdarm gonna do?
Anon...based Wobbuffett and based Wynaut have been permabaned from "smogon standard play" for 20 years. I think they were banned from ubers too this gen
They're not banned, they just can't use Shadow Tag
True so I guess only in gen 3 and 4.
But who the frick is going to use shitlepathy anyway?
Shadow Tag probably wouldn't be banned if it was just Wobbuffet with it. Just like if there were an ability that would insta-wipe the other team if the user got a KO, but it was only available on Sunkern. The user of the ability matters, and Gothitelle got Shadow Tag banned.
Shadowtag was banned before Gothitelle existed, even on a Pokemon with a movepool as limited as Wobbuffet it's too strong. Anything that can't OHKO Wobb (and in a gen with no physical Dark or Ghost moves that's pretty much everything) just dies to Counter/Mirror Coat and most status moves become free set-up fodder with Encore.
>Wobbuffet works
And that's an issue because???? that's just a thing in the game, oh my god
if Gothitelle is too strong with it, fine, ban it from OU
but Wobbuffet it's just the only thing it can do
>And that's an issue because????
Because once Wobbuffet comes in you have literally 0 counterplay to it since you know, you can't fricking switch. You just either lose a Pokemon to Counter/Mirror Coat or get Encored and set up on.
yes, it's an eye for an eye. that's the point of Wobbuffet you piece of shit. also
>counterplay is only switching
is a big low ladder moment
>yes, it's an eye for an eye. that's the point of Wobbuffet you piece of shit
But it's not eye for an eye, it's trading Wobbuffet for whatever the Wobb user has identified is the opponent's most threatening Pokemon or whatever will give it the best opportunity to set up another Pokemon via Encore. It'd be like if in chess you could guaranteed give up a bishop to capture the queen or set up mate in one, it's a wholly advantageous play. And you aren't even trading away Wobb most of the time.
>counterplay is only switching is a big low ladder moment
Name some counterplay options then.
>And you aren't even trading away Wobb most of the time.
You're right, because Wobb just fricking dies.
Why would the Wobb user trap a Pokemon that can kill it? Not everyone is as moronic as you.
Why would you use Wobb if it's useless against half of the mons in the game?
>Why would you use Wobb if it's useless against half of the mons in the game?
Because there's still plenty of important shit it can safely trap and either remove or turn into set-up fodder. People still use Magnezone despite it literally only being able to trap a single type and ever since the removal of HP Fire it not even being good against most Steel types anymore. Just the sole ability to trap remove Corviknight alone is still massive for Magnezone, and Wobb can do a hell of a lot more than that.
>and Wobb can do a hell of a lot more than that.
*inhales*
Which is a bad thing because...????
Because as already established there is no counterplay against it. It doesn't matter if Wobb can't do anything to Ferro (it very much can by the way, it's faster and can encore it on spikes or leech to turn it into set-up fodder or counter knock/whip/press for a KO), removing switching in and of itself removes the ability for there to be counterplay. It doesn't matter if you have a Weavile who can just reliably kill Wobb every time, Wobb is just going to trap something else.
Right. The other counterplay is being a stallgay with no offensive presence.
That fricks Wobbuffet up real good.
Pretty much, Wobb just doesn't do anything against even Ferro lol
and Ferro is not even a stallmon, just a defensive one
Ferrothorn is really offensively underrated.
It's absolutely a tank rather than a wall.
Lando-T will never be banned until it gets too strong for OU.
>legendary monsters that could destroy the world
>and a rabbit that plays soccer
Kek
What move(s) would make Landorus-T bannable?
It'd have to have multiple of these:
>Brave Bird
>Roost
>Flare Blitz
>Psychic Fangs
Most importantly it'd need Roost. Lando with recovery would need very specific counters, since it can always heal off damage that would be fatal to it currently. If it had good Flying STAB and a coverage move, too, it'd be a very threatening offensive Pokemon, not just a bulky pivot. Currently you can easily just chip it with Rocky Helmet Corv/Ferro/Skarm, but with Flare Blitz they wouldn't be able to handle it.
thousand arrows would do it.
>snorlax gen 2
>number one in ou
>number one in ubers
>98% the only matches without snorlax are games where he wasn't revealed yet (SD baton pass bone club marowak sweeps, etc)
how the frick is this shit a thing, johto bros fricking help me out here.
It was a time before ecelebs and their discords. You wouldn't understand.
you are right i have no idea what the frick ecelebs or troonycord has anything to do with this i just wanna know if there was any pushback against the oppressive force that is gen 2 snorlax at any point or did people just accept his bullshit eternally
>you are right
stopped reading there
bye
you are genuinely the most autistic person ive run into on this board
Lando-T is a non issue. Bulky pivots are the most used Pokemon in every tier. Ubers has Yveltal, OU has Lando-T, UU has Swampert, RU has half the top 10, NU has Silvally, and so on.
They're good glue-mons but not overpowered. Yveltal might have 70% usage, but it won't be banned because it's just a really good glue-mon and not Zacian or Mega-Fug
Well then rather than saying lando t is overcentralizing or whatever
im just gonna go ahead and say the smogon fanfic meta is absolute garbage trash excrement having to see the same ugly mon every game.
You can cope about it, but no one else is playing singles. If you want to play 6v6 singles, it's Smogon or bust.
If you don't want to see Lando then just play any of the 6 other tiers were it doesn't exist? That's the entire point of the tiering system.
If you don't wanna see not lando, why don't you just play a lando only tier? That's the entire point of the tiering system
>Lead Pex
>Click Scald against Lando as they earthquake for nothing
>Burn them
>Recover for free
Feels good to be a Pex Chad
Pex is even worse. I'd be willing to give up Lando is Pex gets banned too.
remove genies
NEVER
im going to put this into terms only brainlets can understand
you see picrelated? number 1 most used character in elite smash. does that mean ganondorf is broken? absolutely not, but his kit is incredibly beginner friendly, despite him losing so many matchups. this is why he's such a popular pick
replace "ganondorf" with "lando" and "elite smash" with "vgc" and itd still make sense
Aside from the fact that lando is still actually good, this is pretty accurate.
Smogon OU, not VGC, but yes, you're correct.
Ganondorf in Ultimate is actually still viable. Or was before FP2 released the 4 horseman of the apocalypse and their best friend Satan (Kazuya)
The tiering system in pokemon is based on use. The tiering system in fighting game is based on theory and results.
how is that relevant to anon's point in the slightest
The tiering system is only made through usage out of neccessity to make tiers hundreds of Pokemon (excluding non-distinct NFE would still be several dozen). Otherwise it would be a complete nightmare.
It’s why Smogon has BLs/Ubers, since some Pokemon aren’t common enough in higher tiers but are too good in lower tiers. Key word some since those Pokemon are usually special cases (besides UU which could have its own tier for UUBL)
This gen's UUBL is actually rather small. It only has 2 more Pokemon in it than UUBL in Gen 4, whereas Gens 2, 3, 6, and 7 have ridiculous amounts of Pokemon in it.
>spend all their time wanking over OU to protect landorus
>completely ignore the shitfest that is PU and ZU where hundreds of pokemon of varying power are stuck together
There'll always be a lowest tier where >40% of Pokemon reside. Smogon could make another 5 - 6 tiers below ZU, but there's a couple of issues with that:
1. Low tiers already see very little usage. NU and PU have like 3 matches going on at any one time compared to OU's 80 - 120.
2. What can possibly be lower than Zero Used?
40% of all pokemon makes for a much more varied meta than copy paste the same 5 teams in OU. Really wish there were more matches.
>What can possibly be lower than Zero Used?
Just add another tier or two above ZU but below NU. There's some moronicly powerful stuff down there making it impossible to play with shitmons
>40% of all pokemon makes for a much more varied meta than copy paste the same 5 teams in OU.
Not really. In essence, those tiers have about the same usage rate for the top 40 - 50 Pokemon as OU, UU, and RU do. The difference is that there are hundreds of shitmons they stand on top of. Nobody is using Dustox or Mothim in ZU or PU even if they are technically in the tier. Not to mention you can use lower tier Pokemon in higher tiers. Lower tiers are necessarily more restrictive since they prevent you from using more powerful Pokemon.
That being said, yes, I wish there were more matches in those tiers. Anything below RU might as well not exist as far as playerbase is concerned. It's hard to improve when the playerbase consists of only 100 or so people and you're getting matched up against the same people over and over again.
>Just add another tier or two above ZU but below NU. There's some moronicly powerful stuff down there making it impossible to play with shitmons
Rather, I think we should make an Ubers 1 and Ubers 2, or whatever you want to call the latter one. Get a little bit more heavy handed with the bans in OU and make a tier comprising the shitty ubers and the Pokemon too good for OU. Ubers is pretty massive currently, it would be nice to be able to use Pokemon like Lugia, Genesect, Cinderace, and Kyurem without being harangued by the likes of Xerneas, Yveltal, and Eternatus.
I would appreciate a tier between Ubers and OU, would let me use my homie Genesect and be reminded of the early days of bw2 sweeping everything
A usage tier above OU would be a great solution honestly. Called it TU (too used) or something. Then you can start pumping mons up the tiers from the bottom
>Called it TU (too used) or something.
It should be called NO-U (Not OU).
It'll never happen because it'll just be OU in the minds of the players and Smogon's tribal shitflinging with council membership won't let that happen. Finch would fight the idea as losing ground to another meta erodes his prestige.
It would be good though. Finch has been kind of a shit leader, worse than ABR despite being less of a homosexual. He oversaw more bans than unbans and a lot of his proposed suspects failed. Moreover, Gen VIII is one of the most polarizing metas where even those who play it regularly are frustrated. By comparison Gen VII post Zygarde ban (which Finch advocated) is pretty interactive and fluid.
Then how come that Landorus usage remains consistent in higher ELO tiers
Why are people who dislike the Smogon format and singles the most vocal in competitive singles threads? If you don't like it, why do you care so much if we use Landorus or ban Garm and Draco and Urshifu-S?
>offense bad
>defense good
Why aren't Lugia and Zamazenta allowed into OU?
>The threshold for a defensive Pokemon being "too defensive for OU" is restricted Pokemon
There's an obvious threshold. Kyurem and Kyurem-B were allowed into OU up until this generation where they passed the threshold on the offensive side.
You missed the point. According to people ITT there is basically nothing a Pokemon can do on the support side to get banned; ONLY setup sweepers and to a lesser extent wall breakers are under any scrutiny.
Support =/= defense. Those are different roles. Mandibuzz is a support Pokemon like Lando. Toxapex and Lugia would be defensive Pokemon.
But also, yes, there is a lot more that offense can do to warrant a ban than defense. There are defensive Pokemon (and utility Pokemon) that can get themselves banned for being too good. Giratina isn't banned because it's an offensive monster, but because it's a support behemoth that provides too much utility while also being incredibly hard to get rid of. Every time Mew was banned it was because Mew had too much utility and offense for such a bulky Pokemon. There are countless instances of Pokemon that aren't necessarily offensive getting banned.
>There are countless instances of Pokemon that aren't necessarily offensive getting banned.
Yes fricking restricted Pokemon with intentionally overpowered base stat totals that are banned from every in-game battle facility already.
There is no such thing as "restricted" in OU. Legendaries are legendaries, and that status and their BSTs do not determine if they get banned or not. Mew was banned up through Generation 5 despite having the same BST as Dragonite, Tyranitar, Metagross, and Salamence, which remained unbanned, because of its utility. Those offensive Pokemon remained unbanned because they weren't deserving of a ban, but defensive and utility Pokemon with similar stats can get banned for being too defensive or bringing too much utility.
The main issue in why you don't see defensive Pokemon getting banned more often is that offensive powercreep is a very real thing, and defensive Pokemon are often required to check them. Several more Pokemon would need to be banned if Heatran, Zapdos, Ferro, Lando, Pex, Corv, and Clef were banned for being too defensive since defense necessarily checks offense. Defensive benchmarks are a very real thing, and they're what keep things like Kartana, Regieleki, Garchomp, Rillaboom, Urshifu, Volcarona, and Barraskewda from getting banned for being too offensive.
Game Freak has yet to make an obviously overpowered defensive parallel to, say, G-Darm. If they do (or when, more likely), it'll also get banned.
>Game Freak has yet to make an obviously overpowered defensive parallel to, say, G-Darm. If they do (or when, more likely), it'll also get banned.
It's Feropex you stupid motherfricker
>b-b-but it can't sweep
Like here let me put this in terms a mouthbreather can understand
G-Darm is an OP Pokemon with clear weaknesses; it takes 25% on switch in from SR so it needs support to get rid of that or get in safely, it's made of paper, and it's almost always gonna be move locked. It can sweep your team if you're unprepared or it is maneuvered into a good position, but as long as you can force it out it won't do TOO much damage. It's minmaxed, but it still has strengths and weaknesses.
Your example of mons comparable to Gdarm on the defensive side is Lugia which is functionally fricking invincible in 1v1 vs. non restricted Pokemon and explicitly designed to be overpowered.
>Your example of mons comparable to Gdarm on the defensive side is Lugia which is functionally fricking invincible in 1v1 vs. non restricted Pokemon and explicitly designed to be overpowered.
Not him, but Pex is much closer to the defensive equivalent of Gdarm than Lugia is.
Ferrothorn and Toxapex is 2 Pokemon making up a defensive core, not one obviously overpowered sweeper or offensive pivot a la Kyurem-B or G-Darm
Toxapex and Ferrothorn are each overpowered individually. They force teams to run Pokemon that threaten them specifically.
You can beat both of them without dedicated counters by isolating them at the end of the game and defeating them then. Ferrothorn is very balanced, especially since it has common weaknesses in Fire and Fighting while also not having dedicated recovery. Toxapex leans very hard on the defensive and utility angles with next to no offensive presence, and it might be too much defensively if some of the stronger offensive threats in the tier were banned, but currently it's kept in check by the Slowtwins. Without Future Sight becoming popular it probably would've gotten banned.
>They have weaknesses
Ok so does Gdarm.
Yes, but G-Darm can't be countered by killing the rest of its team. It's still going to drop nuclear bombs on your ass, whereas Toxapex can only impotently spam Recover until it runs out of PP and dies to just about anything that can actually dish out damage. "All My Friends Are Dead Syndrome" isn't just a thing in VGC, though it is more prominent there.
Can toxapex sweep your entire team due to 1 wrong turn? And I find it really hard that you wouldn't have one of your team slots to be able to handle toxapex effectively, what type of teams does toxapex even threathen?
Teams with a corsola defensive core
>But it doesn’t sweep
Defensive Pokemon don’t sweep that’s not their job.
Now tell me which pokemon were ever banned from OU and what role did they provide? 9/10 its pokemon that are so good on their own that they can basically solo win the game or win with minimal support needed, its dificult to justify banning a defensive pokemon because they often don't have that trait, they are there to actually stop certain pokemon from doing just that.
That's because you have to judge defensively minded pokemon different. I'll keep bringing this up but blissey practically makes special attackers much more restrained. The moment your physical attackers are gone, Blissey simply wins you the game because it's simply too bulky for special attackers to deal with for the most part. Even in the event that you have a special attacker that beats blissey. it usually gets banned.
>Low ladder moron STILL hasn't learned about Taunt yet
I'd agree with that, blissey is an auto win if you lose your physical attackers than can threaten it. I guess psyshock still beats it, but that's not very popular right now
And why are you losing your physical attackers so easily to the point that a fricking blissey can win the game by herself? Not to mention that physical attackers aren't even the only way to deal with Blissey. Taunt, Trick, Knock Off and even some special attackers can run a set to deal with Blissey like Heatran using Magma Storm + Taunt + Toxic.
Because blissey is most likely paired with ferrothorn, and they have 4 other mons that might have fricked you over
>And why are you losing your physical attackers so easily to the point blissey can win the game by itself
1)Blissey isn't the only pokemon you are dealing with you've got to deal with ferrothorn, Corviknight
2)Blissey does more than just wall things, It's also one of the best pivots in the game and can do some degenerate thing with teleport. Also reliable recovery can keep blissey healthy through a game.
>Not to mention that physical attackers aren't even the only way to deal with Blissey
Blissey can even cripple them on the switch with thunder wave so physical attackers aren't even that reliable because they also have to deal with the other teammates of blissey.
>Taunt
Blissey switches out, Also limited distribution
>Knock Off
Doesn't cripple blissey as much as you think it does, It's still a behemoth of a wall that still has access to reliable recovery. And can cripple your pokemon with either thunder wave or toxic, Or teleport out into something else to deal with it.
>Trick
A move with limited distribution and even then blissey can still be used as death fodder.
>even some special attackers can run a set to deal with Blissey like Heatran using Magma Storm + Taunt + Toxic.
If a mon has to run a specific set just to beat 1 pokemon, then that already shows that blissey is centralizing because Special attackers are forced to take it into consideration. A hallmark of a broken pokemon is if they force other pokemon to make specific sets just to deal with it.
>If a mon has to run a specific set just to beat 1 pokemon,
That set is used for a lot of things. Please play the game and post your elo already.
Special Defense Heatran with Magma Storm + Taunt + Toxic is the most popular Heatran set in OU, it's not used just for Blissey.
How does Blissey lose to this? Can't Blissey 3HKO with Seismic Toss?
>Can't Blissey 3HKO with Seismic Toss?
No
leftovers recovery. and u can switch out before the 3rd toss bc itll be low enough to ko with something else
but taunt storm tran is really better against other things than blissey
>I'll keep bringing this up but blissey practically makes special attackers much more restrained
This isn't a Blissey problem, it's a problem with special attacks being unbalanced in the game to begin with, strong special attackers being rare, and a general lack of special tanks to keep them in check.
Please don't eat me
Not at all. Just do a lot of damage at once or taunt them
>It's Feropex you stupid motherfricker
Both get deleted by Heatran, Zapdos and dabbed on by Clefable
>it takes 2 defensive Pokemon combined to be as overpowered as an offensive Pokemon
Concession accepted, I guess?
There are stuff support Pokemon can do to get banned.
Dugtrio and Gothitelle got trapping abilities banned and Magnezone is looking to do the same for Magnet Pull.
Aside from that stuff or if they had an ability that set Trick Room or perma Rain, there isn’t much that makes support Pokemon ban worthy.
Typically, support Pokemon are easier to handle than Offensive Pokemon, and rarely is their support game breaking. They often are completely shut down by 1 move in taunt most of the time and worn down eventually.
It’s why Landorus-T is never getting banned unless it gets Roost or something crazy. It’s very easy to wear down Landorus-T over the course of a game, especially when it is tasked with switching in so often.
>Typically, support Pokemon are easier to handle than Offensive Pokemon, and rarely is their support game breaking. They often are completely shut down by 1 move in taunt most of the time and worn down eventually.
Gen VII Aegislash. Although I think eventually, Aegislash gets unbanned in these metas as players realize they were moronic and too stubborn to figure out how to counter Stance Change.
Aegislash was a massive frick up because of the special sets being viable. That said I still roll people with a weakness policy physical set
>Dugtrio and Gothitelle got trapping abilities banned and Magnezone is looking to do the same for Magnet Pull.
Trapping is hyper offense and hurts stall.
>Trapping is hyper offense
not inherently. Gothitelle is stall most of the time. Dugtrio is offense most of the time.
>According to people ITT there is basically nothing a Pokemon can do on the support side to get banned.
Corviknight with Toxic would be close, but I think something like this would give it the boot.
mega sableye says hi
during gen 4, Deoxys-S was unbanned and rebanned in record time precisely because he was the one support pokemon to rule them all
and now we have Regieleki in OU. Power creep truly is funky
Regieleki doesn't have hazards/screens/taunt. It's not just being fast that's the problem.
>Regieleki doesn't have screens
???
>It's not just being fast that's the problem.
well the issue is that he's not just fast, unlike Ninjask and Deoxys-S,
he also hits like a fricking truck. he has counterplay though, he's not say Garmanitan or Urshifu
>Regieleki doesn't have screens
My mistake. Screens are a lot less relevant now though than they were in gens 3 or 4. Regieleki not having hazards or taunt are still huge issues for it though that make it noticeably worse than Deoxys-S.
>well the issue is that he's not just fast, unlike Ninjask and Deoxys-S,
he also hits like a fricking truck. he has counterplay though, he's not say Garmanitan or Urshifu
But hitting hard doesn't really matter when your limited just to Electric attacks and Swift/Explosion leaving you hard walled by literally any Ground type or defensive Grasses like Ferrothorn. Deoxys' support movepool makes it far stronger than Regieleki regardless of raw power.
Whenever Shadow Tag would get unbanned and retested Goth was on literally every stall team because you could use it to to just trap and easily KO or neuter whatever your opponents number one threat was and then easily win the match from there. Trapping helps stall, play the game.
Regieleki has significantly less in the way of support options and has the defenses of wet toilet paper.
>why aren't [legendary obviously way too powerful for OU] in OU?
Kyurem Black has even better stats than Lugia or Zamazenta but was allowed in OU for 3 generations and wasn't even considered particularly good for most of that time. It has nothing to do with being legendary.
Why do you keep trying for this angle? Black was banned the moment it got offense, same with normal Kyurem. It’s also basically the only restricted Pokemon that was ever in that situation.
The point is that a pokemon being "restricted" has nothing do with with how strong it actually is. It's an utterly meaningless label.
Restricted is the term im using instead of box legendary for “Pokemon that has absurd base stats and was explicitly designed to be OP”
You’re being intentionally disingenuous to avoid addressing the point, the threshold for a defensive Pokemon to be OP should not be fricking 700 bst
Magma storm is 75 acc people use it because they’re forced to by the existence of Blissey not because they want to
>Magma storm is 75 acc people use it because they’re forced to by the existence of Blissey not because they want to
People use it because the combination of an actually good trapping move with taunt and naturally high bulk is an unbeatable combination for taking on a whole bunch of different defensive Pokemon. Blissey, Toxapex, Clefable, Slowbro, Corviknight. They all lose to taunt trapper Heatran. It's just a generally good set - yes it's used to counter Blissey, but Blissey is far from its only target.
Clef and Corviknight both are at a disadvantage against Heatran from the start due to it's typing being steel and fire hitting both of them super effectively, While both Slowbro and Toxapex are both viable targets. Slowbro is pretty shaky due to the fact it's got a decent base 100 sp atk
To give an idea this is how much an practically uninvested scald does to the offensive heatran variant.
8 SpA Slowbro Scald vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Heatran: 168-198 (52 - 61.3%) -- 93.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Meanwhile Offensive heatran is forced to go for a 3 hit KO
252 SpA Heatran Magma Storm vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Slowbro: 98-116 (24.9 - 29.5%) -- 100% chance to 3HKO after trapping damage
And that's assuming magma storm hits too begin with. If it misses due to it's shaky accuracy slowbro just crippled one of your blissey answers. The defensive variant of heatran has much better odds against slowbro but saying it's a one sided match in heatran's favor is false. Though toxapex is one sided in favor of heatran mainly because Toxapex simply doesn't hit hard enough.
>Clef and Corviknight both are at a disadvantage against Heatran from the start due to it's typing being steel and fire hitting both of them super effectively,
Yes, but normally they can just switch out. Magma Storm means they can't. That's the whole point. (Corv can technically still switch with U-turn but Magma Storm is still the strongest move Heatran has for it unless you count Eruption)
>To give an idea this is how much an practically uninvested scald does to the offensive heatran variant.
>8 SpA Slowbro Scald vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Heatran: 168-198 (52 - 61.3%) -- 93.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
People run Sp Def for this exact reason
>And that's assuming magma storm hits too begin with.
You Magma Storm on the switch because a bulky water like Slowbro (or Slowking, Pex, etc) is generally going to be most team's best answer to Heatran. If you miss you just swap out and try again the next time you get Heatran in.
>Yes, but normally they can just switch out. Magma Storm means they can't
They can still switch out anyway. You actually have to hit them with magma storm which 1 is only 75% accurate and 2 only traps when it's connects against a pokemon, It's not pursuit or magnet pull. Which completely bypasses a pokemon. The fact heatran runs this is a testament to how much of a chokehold defensive pokemon have in the meta to begin with.
>People run Sp Def for this exact reason
And it's still not a guaranteed win, and even if it does win the 1 on 1 matchup, Slowbro is still heavily chunking Heatran meaning it will be less able to deal with the other walls because heatran has no reliable recovery.
>You Magma Storm on the switch because a bulky water like Slowbro (or Slowking, Pex, etc) is generally going to be most team's best answer to Heatran
Heatran is still going to be chipped hard by slowbro. It's not Heatran vs slowbro, It's heatran and friends vs Slowbro and friends. You need to remember this.
>People use it because the combination of an actually good trapping move with taunt and naturally high bulk is an unbeatable combination for taking on a whole bunch of different defensive Pokemon.
It feels like a waste to use Heatran for that though. You basically sacrifice the game's best special tank just to remove one of several obscene defensive Pokemon.
And that's if Magma Storm actually hits.
t. peaked 1600
t. still spamming hyper offense
the only point u have is that tran sucks on the ladder. its better in tourney
It's the homie who got 6-0 by kyrurem
He makes really good points from what I can tell (only 3 minutes in, don't care to watch more)
If Smogon loves stall so much why don't they unban evasion? That'd be a huge buff for stall and offense wouldn't get much out of it.
Because smogontards are who they are, Anon. That frick shouldve been banned in X&Y and never looked at again.
Are u implying lando is the knife? Cause if so lando is a triangular blade, which is permabanned and deserved
>which is permabanned and deserved
Wrong.
>"why on Arceus"
>fanfic meta
Rofl
Landorus users will defend their panic button to the death
They want the genie wiener in their Boi pussies THAT badly
that's kind of hot
Because Lando t isn't broken. It's commonly used as role compression and never is enough to completely upheave a game as it has many ways of being handled. Garm is able to just constantly throw out moves and force you to use weird otherwise bad options to handle it
>role compression
stop using meme terms
If I want my team to have
>A rocks setter
>A defensive pivot
>An electric immunity
>A ground immunity
>A defogger
There is no other Pokemon other than Lando T that can fulfill all 5 of these roles at once. Lando-T is literally compressing the number of roles you would normally have to have be filled by other Pokemon (e.g., Corviknight and Garchomp combined can fill these roles, but not individually). This inherently means you have a lot more freedom in what to put on your other five teamslots because you aren't constrained by needing to fit all these roles into your team.
didnt ask
>There is no other Pokemon other than Lando T that can fulfill all 5 of these roles at once.
Gliscor?
Gliscor isn't in Gen 8.
daily /vp/ pretends to know anything at all about competitive thread
show elo
It's simple, remove intimidate from lando
>cinderace
>darm-g
>urshifu
>dracovish
>spectrier
so they just banned any pokemon that's offensive huh