>game has incredibly deep combos system
>but it doesn't matter since theres a singular optimal combo for every situation
why do devs do this?
>game has incredibly deep combos system
>game has incredibly deep combos system
>but it doesn't matter since theres a singular optimal combo for every situation
why do devs do this?
Incompetence.
all fighting games are like that
No they aren't. SF4, GGXX+R, VF5 etc. all have multiple routes with different benefits and drawbacks. There isn't a universal corner carry, high damage, safe, meter gain, etc. option. Marvel 3 and Blazblue have this for the strongest characters and most are easy enough to do consistently as well.
>he doesn't lab his own setup ups and combos for fun
Literally no one is forcing you to do optimal combos homie you aren't playing for money.
Because its cool and changes how the game feels. +r feels different than bb feels different than mbaacc. Wall/floor bounce limits, proration, and pushback can all significantly effect how the game is played.
You dont just automatically learn every optimal combo for every character for every situation. Alot of them are really fricking hard or specific and even if you did, it might be more practical to use x combo for different oki, meter gain, damage etc
t. lablet
You seem to have read that backwards I'm asking why do they make the game or its win conditions so unnuanced that all the creative combos never get used?
Dontou have any examples?
sure but there are a LOT of situations out there
it isn't just
>oh I hit with 5B
it's
>oh I hit with 5B with 50% meter and my opponent is in the air and it was a counterhit and I'm midscreen and I'm up against Ragna and my opponent is at 40% life
Lets no pretend theres that many variables out their its either just standing, crouching, or jumping then the distance your character is from them. Thats pretty much it that determines your starter then your screen position is only midscreen, near corner and in corner, and not every character even has a separate low damage corner carry combo so these are basically just memorized as well. The ending move affecting your oki doesn't even change the main part of the combo just the end also most characters have the good oki setup just the same as their highest damage route. I have never seen a single instance of someone using a "high meter gain combo" that didn't do more damage (what even is an example of this?) Also since blazblue is a chain game your starters are better off thought of as chains and not singular moves so 5B 2B is a different starter from 5B 5C and when you look at it like that then yes every starter has the same optimal route because all you really have to do is confirm into a launcher (if possible) and then you just do your characters main bnb. Only a few members of the cast were blessed to have other variables with their character specific mechanic.
>its either just standing, crouching, or jumping then the distance your character is from them.
counter-hit, meter, corner, character specific
blazblue is infamous for pissing everyone off because your "bnb" randomly drops on women
The character specific stuff just makes character specific bnbs theres no actual creativity being added to the game. Also most arcsys fighters are like that as far as I'm aware. At least guilty gear is. Even has some more bullshit like character specific wakeup times.
you dodged?!
INFERNO DIVIDER!!!
It kinda does not help that somehow corner carry is just stupid fricking easy. I feel like the problem is they could have made starters matter more in the range of combo you can go off of, I guess? But for some reason I feel like no matter what, a good starter tends to unfortunately (or good in this case) cover what you want out of a combo. Damage? Corner carry? Oki? You get them all in one.
I don't know how you solve this problem. Or if it even needs fixing.
I don't understand what you're complaining about. Even if a game had the most free form combo system imaginable, there would still be specific combinations that are the most optimal whether it be for damage or speed or consistency. That's just an inevitability.
Probably that optimal combos should not just do everything. If you go for big damage, you should give up oki (but this depends on how the game handles knockdowns, like Granblue in a modern case) or be resource intensive (which it tends to be). I'll say an easy solution is the easier the hit confirm, the shorter the corner carry would be a good compromise but that usually is made up for by scaling anyways so it would be a harsher compromise.
Why isn't there a fighting game that damage nerfs a combo every time you use it? That way you can keep using the same "optimal" BnB every time if you want, but creative players who know multiple combos will out damage you as a reward?
Because that's a fricking moronic idea that no one who makes fighting games wants to do for good reason.
What reason? They want to see the same boring gameplay over and over in their dying genre?
And that reason is?
Smash does that but it only works for moves not combos
>Why isn't there a fighting game that damage nerfs a combo every time you use it?
smash bros has stale move proration and it's very stupid
if you don't wanna get hit by the same optimal bnb stop getting hit by the same move over and over? maybe after the third time you'll apply some pattern recognition
Are you stupid or something? The point isn't that the combo is easy to land its that it always happens when the move connects. Why not just have every move do the combos damage and knock down because they're gonna get the same damn result every time. You're just wasting time autistically doing the exact same combos over and over again.
>Why not just have every move do the combos damage and knock down because they're gonna get the same damn result every time
because doing the combos is fun
but if you wanna just hit once and knock down, there is a fighting game for that. samurai shodown.
>because doing the combos is fun
too bad you can't do 99% of them outside the training mode because you'll lose the game otherwise.
skill issue
yeah, this mindset of yours is exactly why you and the other 3 morons are the only people in the whole world who stil play fighting games. truly a dead genre
Yea the best player in the wold most definitely do the sub optimal combos lol
depends on the game, in many they do.
the difference between "100% optimal" and "slightly suboptimal with different routing" is often not that high.
In BB they're most definitely doing the optimal combs only game I can remember pros doing the easy combos was uniel because the difference was like 50 damage
>smash bros has stale move proration and it's very stupid
why?
Nobody but autists wants to have to memorize three different combos for every situation because they'll arbitrarily start doing less damage. It's astounding that you lack so much self awareness to propose that idea and suggest it'd revitalize the genre.
Why should you memorize combos at all? Just knowing the fundamentals of how things connect should be enough. Smash doesn't make you memorize combos and that literally the most accessible game to casuals.
Because execution is also a part of the game. There's a reason why prior to SF5, Sakonoko had combos named after him. It's because his combos were fricking hard, made harder under tournament pressure. That was the trade off, bnbs are safe and stable but also very middle of the road. While optimized combos carried greater risk but also gave it a bigger reward. Sticking the landing is also a part of fighting games.
Execution doesn't just apply to things that are 100% memorized. Movement is a great example in tekken or smash it takes a lot of execution but you're doing a different thing every time and adapting on the fly.
Smash solved this with di.
>Execution doesn't just apply to things that are 100% memorized
Execution errors happen all the time, even in the highest levels of play. And why are you pretending you reactions and positioning don't exist or dictate on the fly modifications of combo strings?
>reactions and positioning don't exist or dictate on the fly modifications of combo strings?
They don't. Every character has different routes for far and close. Once you confirm your position after the starter you already know what to do its not like its gonna change mid combo. Sure if you screw up some games let you salvage a combo doesn't change how the game is supposed to be played in the first place.
>They don't. Every character has different routes for far and close. Once you confirm your position after the starter you already know what to do its not like its gonna change mid combo.
what game are you even playing
there are surely differences based on distance to the corner, how much proration your starter had, meter availability (can you use 1 or 2 EX moves to extend the combo or to get more corner carry? can you cash out into a super? do you want to focus on max damage or spend meter on a lower damage ender that leads to better wake-up pressure?
>Game has a billion different unique system mechanics that make the game "deep"
>actually it isn't deep at all because everything boils down to RPS interactions
can we get a "simple" fighting game next? Yes I am a boomer and I think the most you need are super meters and alpha counters.
The fact that every game now has to have some variation of "Drive Rush" is hilarious to me.
I fricking hate it. Can't even move to 3d fighters either because apparently Tekken 8 is the most unga bunga aggressive of them all.
I can't tell who to blame for this. The earliest example of can think of is X-Ism in Alpha 3? But I think the modern super mode can be blamed on X- Factor in marvel 3. Because everyone used to jump out of their seats seeing a character explode and wipe the other person. And over the decade, Jesus..., various fighting games tried to keep the comeback mechanics and super modes on a leash, they've never truly gone away. Because modern players just like blow ups.
>Because modern players just like blow ups.
You mean modern tournament viewers, not players. That's who these changes are being made for. None of the people screeching "OOOOHH WHAT A COMEBACK" play the game. They just want to make epic clips on twitter.
I've never actually seen anyone get hyped for x factor seems like tournament players were the only ones who defended it
Thats actually good for tekken you don't wanna kwd all the fricking time just hitting the air
dive kick, footsies, fantasy strike, battle fantasia, granblue fantasy versus this has been tried before the games just feel hollow, lol will probably be another attempt since its based off rising thunder
Forgot to add samurai showdown as they had a popular recent release. Also check the recs in here https://youtu.be/nuHkwWR4f4M
long ass combos are pointless, everthing should be 3 hits at best
I wouldn't be useless if they actually distinguished between the rewards for each hit. As it stands now you may as well get the optimal damage off each confirm since its just muscle memory anyway.
Smash actually did it best since you can di you never stop playing when you're getting combod, the attacker also has to use his brain to keep you in the combo. Only fighter I've seen effectively do something similar is ki where players have actually said the system incentivizes short combos. Skull girls is a second place although combos are still long you always have to pay attention because you don't know when the reset is coming. Burst in anime games is basically a failed mechanic even though gg has frequent bursts most the time you're still just grinding out muscle memory and the burst baiting is usually oses or "burst safe" combo routes. BB used to have baitable bursts but they did away with that for some reason so now it only happens when its obvious like at the end of a match.
Because it's fun.
It would be fun if that was actually a viable strategy for winning and not just some hype clip relegated to being posted on youtube
Worked just fine for this guy
>literally pauses the game
anon do you think this was a serious match?
All Azrael matches are serious business
the overemphasis on combos and COMEBACK LET'S GOOOOOOOOOOO! are the biggest problems in fighting games but nobody wants to play samsho
Samsho has a comeback mechanic though.
samsho always had big dick damage that facilitated comebacks so it's tolerable there
cmon dude its a little bullshit there
If you block or dodge someone's issen, they lose their meter for the entire match. That's including the next round too. It's not as bad as it looks at all, especially because it's fairly obvious when someone is fishing for it.
this super does the same damage as haohmaru's heavy slash does in samsho V
imo combos aren't bad if the game is still aggressive and fast but old school bb was the epitome of long ass boring combos where half the game was just failed footies but if you tagged them twice it was over. one of the few series where the final version actually was the best.
Honestly, I think combos are a much bigger factor behind casuals not wanting to play than motion inputs. No new player wants to go lab a combo so they can start doing damage. People get turned off when they see some 15 hit combo in footage much less when they have to actually sit there for 25 seconds watching their opponent play with themselves before putting on an unskippable cutscene. It's genuinely weird to me that motion inputs get all the blame. I know plenty of casuals that have no problem doing a QCF but don't want to learn even the most basic combos.
673829071
people are afraid that if they play SNK games they will turn brown
>10 hour long combos
>broken tier list
>matches are boring
Why would anyone play this when the previous guilty gear games exist
blazblue was way more popular than guilty gear so you tell me
I miss Blazblue english dub
>they're still at it
Because there's no real way of getting around that. Every move has different values, so there's always inevitably gonna be an optimal combo string that produces the best values.
It reminds me of people who say
>The devs should just patch out the meta
Every game has a meta. A meta is just the optimal way to play.
Off the top of my head you could easily solve the problem by having different "types" of damage. Even if theres an optimal value each player at least has their own playstyle.
I'm pretty sure a few games have tried that. Any game that attempts what you're suggesting pretty much comes under intense criticism and failed to get off the ground.
What game? Only one I can think of was that early 3d game where you could attack different body parts.
Also something being poorly executed doesn't necessarily mean its a bad idea just that people don't know how to make it work.
>dude what if fighting games had different kinds of damage lol
Please shut the frick up. No one wants to do this because it's a shit idea that they don't like the same way devs aren't making fighting games with zero combos because that sounds like a boring, shit idea to them. Play something else.