>games made by artists with middling programming skills are some of the most succesful indie games around
>games made by programmers with middling art skills don't exist at all
huh
>games made by artists with middling programming skills are some of the most succesful indie games around
It's more like this
>bad to mediocre games made by people who are good at networking/marketing/playing the social media game are some of the most successful indie games around
>excellent games made by autists who can't talk to someone without freezing up are so obscure they might as well not exist at all
the former is western indies
the latter is japanese indies
>excellent games made by autists who can't talk to someone without freezing up are so obscure they might as well not exist at all
Name 10.
Oh wait, you can't.
I'm waiting in this thread in case that anon names even one.
I can, but I won't, because I'm gatekeeping it.
Only high hell, heavy bullets and hong kong 97 aren't well known.
Again you can't even name 10 because your delusions only happen in your head.
>hong kong 97
>isn't well known
Not since the AVGN episode
Again, I'm not telling you because I don't want simpletons such as you to find out about the games I like in the off chance they somehow become too popular for their own good.
Sure, schizo, tell that to your imaginary friends to cope with the fact you can only spout bullshit to pretend to be interesting.
Good posts.
cruelty squad
dwarf fortress
minecraft
cave story
yume nikki
hylics
high hell
heavy bullets
hong kong 97
2hu
also star fetchers
my Black person these are not obscure at all, they are the opposite of oscure
they started out obscure,
they only got as popular as they did through time
their developers were autists and there was barely any advertising.
unless you mean games that are also obscure still.
then i dunno... star fetchers?
Zun isn't an autist, he's a married man.
>cave story
>yummy Nikki
>good
>obscure
>2hu
Unless there's an actual game called 2hu, Touhou is made by ZUN and he's hardly an autist that suffers from social anxiety that he's unable to talk to anyone. Same goes for Minecraft; Notch talks to people.
Wadanohara
Mogeko Castle
The Gray Garden
Dreaming Mary
Hello Charlotte
Tess
LiEat
The Dark Side of Red Riding Hood
End Roll
Towelket
>inb4 it doesn't count
>posting the "popular" RPG Maker slop with English translations
nice try, but if it's been played by more than 5000 people then you have no ability to call it obscure.
>literally does "it doesn't count" just as predicted in the he post he replies to
Thanks for proving me right.
They don't count.
A legitimate reason why was provided in the post.
>Get medical help, you need it.
No, I don't.
Meant for
Lol, as expected of a moron.
Frick you, I'm going back playing vidya
>name a color
>uhhh pizza inb4 that's not a color
>that's not a color
>lololol proved me right
moron
https://www.homedepot.com/p/Glidden-Premium-1-gal-PPG1058-6-Pizza-Pie-Satin-Interior-Latex-Paint-PPG1058-6P-01SA/310134363
inb4 "that doesn't count"
The actual problem is literally none of these games are
>made by programmers with middling art skills
Nor excellent.
You are not even reading the posts you are replying, only declare yourself to be right just because, like the schizo you are.
Get medical help, you need it.
>Name 10 games nobody's ever heard of
lol
Anon, your moronic brain may have not realized this yet but no game can really be unheared by all as they are created by humans, so at least one person will know them.
And second, nowhere in the posts was said the games were COMPLETELY unknown (again, impossible), learn to read.
ballistic.ng
Immortal Defense
Das Geisterschiff
Jet Lancer
Lycanthorn II
Savage Vessels
Scavenger SV-4
Ubermosh (there's like nine of these games)
Void Destroyer 2
Splatter
>bad to mediocre games made by people who are good at networking/marketing/playing the social media game are some of the most successful indie games around
name a few
>inb4 Hollow Knight or Undertale
I could still punch the moron that made this furthering the misconception that sloppa is a bad thing because morons can't discern between slop and a stew
If it looks like slop and it sounds like slop, it's slop. I still won't eat it.
So goulash and chili are of the menu because of arbitrary moronation?
yeah, apparently, simple is bad, and they don't consider it to be real cooking unless you waste several hours preparing it
the majority of the people that call any food 'goyslop' are in fact projecting and coping over a life time of big mac meals happily consumed pre-2016, it's always the most feverishly devout that end up being the biggest hypocrites.
McDonald's was always considered low quality slop made out of dog anuses and chicken droppings, that isn't new.
Goyslop refers to low-quality, calorie dense, yet nutrient deficient foods.
Also often used to refer to vegan meat replacements — it's in assistance to ZOG that you turn into a Putty Person. Get zero red meat. Only seed oils, high fructose corn syrup, legume proteins and the occasional spider, for you goy.
would you rather eat mcdonalds or eat this guy's ass
Name 10 ingredients that aren't simple
These are all excellent games.
>t. played them all
>good games are le bad
How did you manage to copy the font?
10,000 hours in MS paint
Wasn't me who did it, so I don't know. I just saw it spammed in lots of indie game threads and thought it was funny.
Hollow Knight, Undertale, Cruelty squad, Pizza tower, that buttplug game. Anything aggressively and successfully shilled on here
>excellent games made by autists who can't talk to someone without freezing up are so obscure
They're also all shit because said autists suck dick at drawing/making music and their games usually aren't interesting gameplay wise either.
>>bad to mediocre games made by people who are good at networking/marketing/playing the social media game are some of the most successful indie games around
This is Depression Quest, right? I mean the dev was literally connected to other people.
Did cruelty squad dev ever talk about their game?
yeah
90% of what he said was "haha i dunno it was just some bullshit i came up with"
Neat
Ville's art is pretty interesting, i really like pic related
He did in Pyrocynical's Cruelty Squad review.
He said that he himself didn't even get Zippy 3000, and he guessed that Pyro used cheat engine to catch some hardest fish, which I'm assuming Ville's himself himself didn't bother with it because he knows how bullshit fishing can be.
Also he said reason why included Osama's complex was because saw it online and decided to put in his game.
i kinda like the artstyle actually
its offensive to the eyes but in a way kinda like looking at a car crash, you can't just look away
The Zippy was pretty easy to get though. Just play the slots a bunch of times.
winning the lottery is as easy, literally just buy tickets until you get the jackpot
At roughly 2 seconds per spin at a 1 in 500 chance. 15 minutes of spinning gets you a roughly 59% chance of getting a Zippy.
Hardly lottery-tier odds.
programming is just a skill, like wrenching on a car or carpentry. Asking a programmer to design a game is like asking a carpenter to design a building or a mechanic to design a car. Sure, some of the knowledge is transferrable, but it’s not the majority of what is needed.
>t. design software, devs are helpless without guidance
Narrow excellence and confusing incompetence in pther things like that is pretty common among intelligent people. I have worked as an office wagie in a medical university and once had to give a brain chemistry researcher a crash course on how to properly use and organize folders in Windows.
Now I will say that when people combine these skillsets you get the best product. Example: when a carptenter is also an architect, or an electrical engineer also has experience actually wiring stuff up, then you get practical knowledge combined with the hard math needed to produce bigger things. But those people are rare.
Everyone who doesn't have an education is more like that than not
A terrible approach to programming, simply terrible.
>Asking a programmer to design a game
Design what? Main gameplay loop? Soundtrack? Artistic style? Monetization?
so anons, OOP or Functional?
i hate OOP but i don't know anything about functional programming.
>functional programming
It fricking sucks.
>i hate OOP
Everyone does. Glory to the C masterrace
Also look up entity component systems.
functional is the most sound and productive way to do programming. with functional programming you can prove and guarantee soundness which means there is no need for testing.
purely functional languages like Haskell have their problems and (imo) are too limited but it's still way better than the abstract abstract factory factories, reactors, decorators, observer, etc bullshit you need to do with oop
>there is no need for testing
Depends on the use case, but these days, it's almost always OOP.
>i hate OOP
Why? I love OOP. Writing classes and making objects interact just rubs me the right way.
>Why?
it's very tedious
Don't forget how big of a clusterfrick it can become when multiple hundreds of people are working on it for a decade. Especially if pajeets are involved as well.
How is functional more tedious, especially for bigger projects?
Functional programming is spaghetti code central.
>with functional programming you can prove and guarantee soundness which means there is no need for testing
>no need for testing
Pic related.
>Functional programming is spaghetti code central.
Lisp is write-only code
>How is functional more[sic] tedious, especially for bigger projects?
i don't know, because like i said, i know nothing about functional programming. i just know i don't like OOP.
>there is no need for testing
In theory yes, but in practice you will most likely still need to do integration testing. you don't need to unit test a component if it's logically sound, UNLESS the language itself isn't sound (e.g. java, js).
pOOPers and webdev codemonkeys are so braindead and tunnelvisioned into the oop paradigm it's impossible for them to envision any other possibility. they can't imagine how 1+1 equals two without a hundred tests that will still miss the gazzilion possible edge cases
>In theory yes
Not even in theory you mongrel.
>you don't need to unit test a component if it's logically sound
That's not how it works. That's not how any of it works Rakesh.
>you don't need to unit test a component if it's logically sound
How do you ensure that a component is logically sound? We are all human, we all make mistakes.
Also, you need to do unit testing even in functional, we were taught both of these topics before OOP. Unless I was falsely taught as a joke, of course.
>How do you ensure that a component is logically sound
proof by induction
>Also, you need to do unit testing even in functional
you don't need to if it's proven to be sound. to be fair, proving program soundness and/or completeness is rarely done outside of theoretical CS and academia.
think of it like this, a function is just a mapping from set A to set B according to some rule/s X. if this function covers all values in set A and maps them correctly to elements in set B accordance to rule X then this function is sound and complete meaning no need for unit tests. induction allows you to prove this even if sets A and B are infinite. the main caveat is that the rule must be a logical one and not some heuristic abstraction jerk off like what's commonly used in oop.
I'm really not buying what you are trying to sell me. You seem to be operating purely in the realm of math, not reality. Can you provide instances where this "proof by induction" was used in real world programming? I have never heard of this, but neither do I claim to be omniscient.
>proving program soundness and/or completeness is rarely done outside of theoretical CS and academia.
Guess why fricktard?
because most programmers are moronic sub 90iq incompetent code monkeys
So they made an instruction just because JavaScript sucks?
>rarely done outside of theoretical CS and academia
So no real world applications.
gamedev uses data oriented progrmaming
OOP creates transparent code.
>games made by programmers with middling art skills
That is Cogmind and it is amazing. Lot of autist devs like that tend to make (mostly traditional) roguelikes in general, general public does not go crazy about them because they got too much of barrier of entry and learning curve for normalgays.
>games made by artists with middling programming skills are some of the most succesful indie games around
Using an easy to use engine it's possible if you know what you are doing, but most big indie games have above average talented programmers. Undertale vs. the Witness. Using an game maker for example means you are doing lot's of the same stuff that programmers do but just suboptimally and slowler.
Are you implying that shit was made by competent artists?
made by programmers with middling art skills don't exist at all
Dwarf Fortress didn't have any art beyond the intro until last December.
No one plays RimWorld for graphics.
the code for dwarf fortress is particularly competent though, single threaded monstrosity
now factorio, THAT is fine art
People keep saying "programming != game design", but how does one learn game design? It's not like there are schools for it, you can't get a degree in game design like you can in software engineering.
>It's not like there are schools for it
Wrong
>you can't get a degree in game design
Wrong again homosexual
you make small games testing designs you’re curious about, then ask if it’s fun and why or why not.
also: play games. not just good games, but bad games too, so that you can better appreciate things you might have taken for granted in better games
Play games and think about what makes them good or bad, then do the act of designing yourself, since you can't get good at something without doing it.
It's that simple.
>play games
>watch interviews of game programmers talking about mechanics
>watch interviews where they talked about tricks they used or new things they tried
>watch things about how games told you what to do without showing it by displaying directions with words on the screen
Study this stuff and make simple games. Experiment by tweaking things. Ignore the art and story, you can worry about that later. It's more important that you get the mechanics and gameplay down. Don't focus on what any menus look like, focus on how they are designed and laid out. Not what they look like. The art and story come later.
Neither is sufficient on its own.
One creates content, the other creates the frame and content detail.
Abstract reason and imagination is necessary in both.
cruelty squad is not a good game
no, but it is a unique experience
Not relevant, OP just factually stated that it is objectively a very successful indie game.
Hammerfight
Dwarf Fortress
>hammerfight
>Dune-like society of insect-humans hybrids in which everyone speaks in rhymes and uses
steampunky gyrocopters armed with giant melee weapons which are used in fights with giant insects who also relatives to humans and remnants of old army of machines lead by super AI, all of this sprinkled by Game of Thrones-like fight for power and revenge and shit
K I N O
I
N
O
>Dune-like society of insect-humans hybrids
It was sad and creepy in Vangers, it's screepy now too.
The only good Pokemon games were (re)made by a code wiz, Doom 1-2 and Quake 1 was made mostly by an autist with inhuman levels of coding skills (but to be fair, the rest of the team kept him in check as seen by the later games he worked on) Slay the Spire was made by a middiling artist with fairly good coding knowledge, Minecraft was made by a swedish autist that was better at coding than he was at literally anyting else in his life (he still kinda sucked at it though, atleast at the time)
Carmack is a prime example of a skilled programmer who has no idea about fun in vidya. Like allegedly he considered level design beyond bare minimum similar waste of time as adding any complex narrative.
He was right.
Any time you start to think about concepts like
>level design
>gameplay loop
>narrative
you automatically start to drift away from a focus on gameplay.
"Pure" gameplay-oriented games don't need any of these things in order to remain both fun and relevant for long periods of time.
The gameplay of Rage which he had a free reign over was beyond boring though.
>"Pure" gameplay-oriented games don't need any of these things in order to remain both fun and relevant for long periods of time.
How is *gameplay* loop and level design not part of the gameplay?
Also I'm questioning that quote regarding it. Level design can be used to show off the capabilities of the engine.
That's like showing his magnum dong for the whole world to see.
it's even more questionable when you think about old Doom levels being labyrinths with tons of secrets.
The average person thinks of level design as what each level looks. Imagine a level with barebones or no art. Just generic stuff. Where to place powerups is level design that effects gameplay. The aesthetic and atmosphere of a level isn't as necessary. Those add to the game, but they aren't necessary.
>t. moron who's never made a game
a game that's just pure gameplay doesn't exist, a game is a combination of multiple factors working together to produce a game. you don't design gameplay in a vacuum moron, gameplay must be supported by a confluence of said factors, but it is not the most important aspect of a game. the most important aspect is the experience of a game.
you can have the best gameplay in the world be wasted just because your stupid ass can't design a good level and the loop itself is unintuitive or obtuse. as for narrative, all game needs context to it. it is something you either add to enhance the experience, or to become the focus of the experience itself as in more narrative-heavy games. great gameplay can make a game good, but a great narrative can make a game memorable for years despite its flaws.
>a game that's just pure gameplay doesn't exi-ACK!
There's an awful lot of art and ui presentation on that screen anon
Concession status: ACCEPTED
You said it's pure gameplay
The argument was that something like that can't exist
Your example objectively isn't pure gameplay, and blatantly has other qualities
You were wrong and you lost, cope
>posts game with most iconic soundtrack in history
He's a higher being than us so it's possible he's viewing things in a scale we can't imagine. And given enough time he'll probably be right.
I dunno, dude apparently hates people playing quake with bunnyhopping and rocketjumping instead of it being a corner peeking sim
Corner bop is nice, relaxing way about it.
>dude apparently hates people playing quake with bunnyhopping and rocketjumping
Only because they found some quirks in his game engine which makes a galaxy brain turboautist and juvenile delinquent seethe with the fury of a thousand suns
Surely these tech giants wouldn't have the ego of school boys... mmm.
He's not a higher being, stop putting extremely smart people on a pedestal and try to achieve at least 50% of their feats.
>stop putting extremely smart people on a pedestal
You're right. Lets worship the Kardashians instead
made by programmers with middling art skills don't exist at all
There was that one game where you crafted mines.
I gotta learn how to tranqboost, but my shitty meat body refuses to.
made by programmers with middling art skills don't exist at all
Minecraft?
Baba is You?
I don't know whether this is true or not but I wonder if artists are more likely to produce something with their audience in mind than programmers. I've always gotten the impression that programmers not only don't care about their audience but sometimes actively loathe them while artists can often be obsessed with drawing praise to an almost dangerous degree.
I'm a programmer, and I definitely understand the "loathing you audience" thing, even if the audience is imaginary.
What does it make me if I'm focused on what would be cool to the audience, but the audience is myself
Who cares
who the frick plays indies for graphics
>t. programmer who doesn't understand why nobody cares about their game
cream rises to the top
stop coping
your game is unknown and no one played it because its shit
Assets are hard
Please understand
Brigand's dev is searching for network devs for his possible co-op extension
https://forum.thegamecreators.com/thread/229261
>dbp networking
I cannot fathom the jank
how would that even work, networking, in this???
Everything is possible
There's no such thing as "middling" programming skills because programming is a means to an end, so if the program works, then it works, and there's nothing more to be said about it.
>if the program works, then it works,
Hello Todd
made by programmers with middling art skills don't exist at all
minecraft
Minecraft's visuals are excellent. It's iconic for a reason.
It's literally called "programmer art" in-game. Minecraff's initial visuals were never meant to be final, but Notch was too lazy to replace them, so they eventually became iconic.
M*crosoft calls it "programmer art".
It's kind of weird but I think Notch turned out being a better artist than a programmer
well clearly he turned out to be a better marketer than either
>hit it big on the first try
>immediately turn into a lazy sack of shit who never does anything noteworthy ever again
>the world is forever deprived of the amazing art and scams he would've produced on his road to greatness
worst timeline...
Didn't the guy end up fricking miserable after moving to Hollywood and partying dozens of millions away in his luxury villa day and night? What's he doing these days?
Seems like the default thing for rich neurotics to do nowadays is forget their riches and be moronic on twitter 24/7
Hedonic treadmill is a helluva drug
crazy society we're living in. I guess if your only goal is getting lodsofemone, reaching that goal results in losing your purpose. I wonder if he realizes he was probably happier before getting all that dosh and becoming a terminally online tech millionaire neet
Its like all those aging workaholics who retire and then immediately croak
People are pretty different and some were built for neetdom and some will literally go insane and die if they're deprived of purpose. Some people will get a bunch of money, go on a spending spree and become jaded and disillusioned because it didn't buy lasting happiness like they were conditioned to believe and it was that quest for a bunch of money that brought them joy and now all they have is blown out dopamine receptors and a lot of free time.
And of course some will get a bunch of money and be utterly fulfilled in every way possible.
Notch is shit at everything because he stopped entirely after getting infinite money, proving he never cared and it was only ever a means to an end for him
Maybe, creativity and drive are fickle. Nothing he does will likely be anywhere near as popular as Minecraft and maybe that's daunting
Some people are driven to continue producing long after they become rich but they stop caring about making any of it good. Look at Richard Garriot, he's a pure grifter now.
Notch can still go suck a dick though.
Drive to do work is irrelevant when you have enough money to fund everything you could ever dream of out of pocket and still come out a billionaire on the other end without ever doing another day of work in your life
That is literally idea guy money
He devoted his life to making Minecraft. He can't get that time back. He has enough money to enjoy his free time. May be he doesn't want to do that over again. He could be an idea guy, but he might feel that he needs to be more involved then just telling people what to do which means becoming engrossed in his work. May be that's why he avoids it.
>He devoted his life to making Minecraft. He can't get that time back.
How fricking long do you think it took to develop minecraft? What the hell even is this delusion?
Is this a shitpost that I'm just too stupid to grasp?
My bad i should have said programming. He was 30 when he started developing it. He likely spent a lot of his teenage years and 20s programming. You don't learn programming then just make Minecraft. You don't get to the olympics just because you played the sport in high school. You have to devote a lot of time to it. After several years Minecraft made him extremely rich. He no longer has to devote all of his time to stuff like that. I don't know the guy, but i'm trying to give reasons why someone might not continue to do that.
Anon, he did not devote time to learning javascript just because he wanted to make minecraft
Minecraft was coded in Java. Java isn't Javascript. He had years of experience programming in general. programming takes a lot of hours to get good enough at like anything. This board is full of fricking people who don't have a firm grasp on reality.
And again, that's irrelevant, you sub-80 IQ moron
It's not. You're a terminally online autist NEET who has never devoted time to anything meaningful. Most of the people on these boards aren't as smart as they think they are. You'll never be Japanese.
>Doubling down on his misunderstanding and still pretending that self-betterment can only be for the purpose of getting rich
lmao
Games that look bad, but are fun to play > games that look good, but suck to play.
What a game looks like comes secondary to the programming and core design. Good looking games that play well are amazing, but a game doesn't have to look amazing to be great.
this is why indies are full of early accessfests and patreonmilkers
made by programmers with middling art skills don't exist at all
factorio, aurora 4x, dwarf fortress, zachtronics games, etc.
Test
you are low test
>artist made indie games
almost all of them have the same pozzed "adult-cartoon-esque" modern art style all modern media has with the same creatively bankrupt shitty stories and shitty tropes.
>programmer made indie games
massively complicated autismfests with some of the worst UIs possible that require massive time investment in order to "get into" just to get an experience that is as fun as tidying an excel spreadsheet.
>games made by programmers with middling art skills don't exist at all
best selling game of all time
made by programmers with middling art skills don't exist at all
Doom
made by programmers with middling art skills don't exist at all
BeamNG.drive.
starsector? pretty sure the main dev is just a code monkey (judging by the massive code documentation and mod support the game has) and someone else does the art
Overload (best boomer shooter)
That one I forgot the name of that was published by adult swim. (it was Desync, which doesn't even have a wikiped article)
>games made by programmers with middling art skills don't exist at all
that would be the actual (real) roguelike genre
>games made by programmers with middling art skills
basically every game made between 1960 and 1998
>Dwarf Fortress
>Rimworld
They exist.
>what is dwarf fortress
>what is aurora 4x
>what is nethack
>what is rule the waves
>what is command
>what is dominions
>what is stars!
>what is chapter master
>what is exon
>what is codespells
>what is minecraft
Bumping for great logical justice. Point to every zig.
How do you even advertise your game in current year, just shill on twitter or hope some eceleb plays it
you have to be careful about where you shill your game, i wouldn't do it on twitter because it could draw the wrong crowd.
>games made by programmers with middling art skills don't exist at all
Toby Fox
Toby is a musician who explicitly is not a programmer and works in gamemaker
Minecraft.
>games made by programmers with middling art skills don't exist at all
That's a big chunk of indie games, they certainly exist.
name a few
gameplay matters more tbf