Can someone explain to my why people think gen 2 has a bad level curve? I know that this is a smug meme but I am just trying to understand the criticism, given that it actually exists. What is so bad about it and what is the alternative?
Gen 2 level curve
It doesn't have a bad level curve. It's a lie invented by jealous nugen fans, because GSC and HGSS are better than whatever their favourite Gen is.
People like you are why Johtogays have an awful reputation. You simultaneously act like you're superior and yet get so defensive and take it personally when someone shows even a mild critique of your games. Every game and has and refusing to accept that will only make you look worse.
*Every game has flaws and refusing to accept that will only make you look worse
>You simultaneously act like you're superior and yet get so defensive and take it personally when someone shows even a mild critique of your games.
How is this different from any other homosexual that participates in genwars? If you genuinely believe this is exclusive to people who like Gen2 then you are a genuine idiot.
>nugen
this is literally the oldest longstanding criticism of johto and it's because it's true, levels plateau at like 20 for a solid 1/3 of the game and then everything is very suddenly much stronger right at the end of the main story, then the same situation repeats with the kanto gym leaders and red. it's been a known issue with the game for decades at this point, gen 2 isn't flawless and it's not some stupid boogeyman saying so.
The highest leveled wild pokémon in Gen 2 prior to the league are 32 on land and 40 on water, the wild levels in Gen 1 are high 40's for the first stage evolutions. Victory road is also more expansive in Gen 1, with more high leveled trainers to grind off. As VR in Gen 2 is shorter with little to no trainers to grind against, it feels like they lost track of the curve as they reached mid-point.
Gen 1's E4 is levels 50-65
Gen2's E4 is levels 40-50
Therefore wild Pokemon at level 40 is perfectly acceptable. It's all in your head.
The Johto league is meant to be played at level 37
Archer fight
Level 33 Houndour
Level 33 Koffing
That is all
Around mid-game it gets a little fricked as the wild Pokemon stay in the mid-10's from Ecruteak City all the way to west of Mahogany Town.
Also, it gets a little weird if you battle Pryce as final gym leader before they go to Blackthorn because his Pokemon are of a lower level than Jasmine, significantly so in GSC.
It’s mostly the team rocket section near the end of the Johto arc being underleveled, they have a bunch of level 20 rattatas when you’re in your 30s. Kanto fodder trainers are also underleveled but that’s obviously intentional since midboss battles in Kanto are actually around your level. They just didn’t think it would make sense for literalwho trainers to be a challenge for the league champion
Kanto gym leaders also dont increase in level between them due to how open Kanto is in the Johto games, which means the last ones you challenge (except for Blue) aren’t gonna be overleveled like they were meant to be, making them a cakewalk.
Red is also honestly too strong. He will usually require grinding to beat. To be fair that applies to gen 3 superbosses as well, Steven in Emerald and the FrLg league rematches both require grinding, you absolutely can’t do them immediately after you unlock them unless you already grinded. But the difference is that GSC actually tells you to explore Mt silver immediately after you beat Blue, while Steven is in a hidden area without the game telling you, and FrLg doesn’t warn you about league rematches either. This means you’re way more likely to come across these after already leveling up by randomly playing the game, while for Red you’re likely to go fight him immediately, and underleveled
Honestly GSC’s level curve issues are mostly due to how "open world" it is, it could use a few more road block. If anything this is the proof that open world cannot work in a pokemon context, even when a good game does it, the open world mechanics just make it worse.
I actually think Red is pretty appropriately level. Yes, he's about 15-20 levels higher, but this just to sell the idea that he's really strong. His team has massive weaknesses that you should be familiar with how to exploit this far in, and it's only one fight unlike the 5-team gauntlet that is the league
>His team has massive weaknesses
yes they all die to OHKO with X Accuracy
this sums it up
gen 1 and 2 games were piss easy for intelligent people
only morons struggled
There’s nothing wrong with overleveling bosses but Red himself is a bit too strong to be faced at level 48 which is where you will naturally be at by that point, you’ll typically need to grind to 55.
Then again you could just use the box legendaries. You get Ho Oh at 70 in Silver, Lugia at 70 in Gold, and both at 60 in Crystal. Those should be enough to give you the win
>johto thread
>aggressively trying to genwar against other regions
Every single time!
Gen 5 doesn’t overlevel you
The first one doesn’t
The second one absolutely does
Soloing the game with a single Pokémon doesn't mean Johto or Unova is le bad, Yawngay.
Red is meant to be fought at 55 and you get there at 48
Uh oh Johtimmy melty!
So you used two Pokémon. Still not a valid criticism of Johto, Yawngay.
i just think its stupid that kanto gyms have lower lvls than the elite four
i get how it makes lore sense, but it makes the back half of the game a lot less engaging
this isnt really what ppl are talking about when they say level curve though
Average level: 39
You’re not even really overleveled, you’re in the late 30s as was intended for the league
gen 2 is designed with the assumption that players will do everything as soon as possible, which is not how anyone plays the game. you'll have six badges and be trekking to the lake of rage but the trainers will be balanced assuming you haven't even fought morty yet.
the low level of trainers also leads to a drought of exp., making it had to train up new members and an ordeal to put some extra levels on old members. which doesn't sound bad on paper, a lower level curve is not an inherently bad thing, but since new moves and evolutions require leveling up, you're going to be using first or second stagers with basic moves for most of the game.
also if anyone is telling you johto is hard, they're either lying or they're stupid. johto's not hard, just tedious.
> johto's not hard, just hard
The average of your team represents how much exp you got
Jotho is the easiest game in the franchise because of the shit Pokemon so they made the levels lower.
You aren’t, you just focused your exp on a single pokemon
>he’s STILL trying to dodge the fact he grinded
if you play normally your mons will always be 20-30 levels under red if you calc all the exp you get from every trainer and dont grind on wild mons
Kalosgays seem to love grinding
Red is a really easy fight thoughever.
You are not being honest. He is the hardest of the franchise because of the high amount of grinding you need to do. Unless you mean that he is easy to defeat as an adult which is pretty obvious for a kids game. Afaik later games do not have an equivalent to Red, feel free to show me wrong.
You dont need to grind at all, he uses fricking Pikachu lol. Basically every champion fight is harder.
>Lvl 88 0 Atk Light Ball Pikachu Volt Tackle vs. Lvl 70 0 HP / 0 Def Typhlosion: 217-256 (103.3 - 121.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
cope
Why does your Typhlosion have no EVs?
>typhlosionkek
lol no wonder you had trouble with fricking Red
>Lvl 88 0 Atk Light Ball Pikachu Volt Tackle vs. Lvl 70 0 HP / 0 Def Feraligatr: 356-420 (161.8 - 190.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
>he uses meganium
fricking kek
You're supposed to use the any% no manip speedrun strat of Encoring it with Shuckie. Pikachu uses Quick Attack on it, you send out your main mon, and set up on it. Dumbest strat ever, but that's what you can expect from a shitter like Red.
Or you just use your Graveler/Golem to EQ it
Go ahead, try grinding up a team for Stadium 2 on Mt. Silver's wild mons. I'll wait the month that will take you.
In just the perview of the campaign, what you have is a good, albeit low, level curve up until Morty, where the game opens up. Here, you run into a problem. You can go one of two paths:
>West through to Olivine and Cianwood, likely fighting Chuck, then Jasmine
>East through to the Lake of Rage, clearing out the Rocket Hideout and beating Pryce
Due to the homosexual standing guard in Mahogany town, you can't fight Clair (so much for open-world, but I digress), so must go back and take the other path. There you will fight Pokémon vastly beneath your level. It's a stomp fest.
Next, you'll clear the radio tower, where they are STILL underleveled.
Once you can fight Clair, things are fine level-wise until after the Elite Four.
Kanto has nowhere to level up new team members. You're greeted with level 3 Pidgeys, and trainers with Pokémon in the 20s, maybe 30s.
Red isn't that bad due to badge boosts and Stat XP. If you use items he's even easier. The problem is though that you pretty much have to stick with one party of 6 or be chronically vastly underleveled (or be like 7-year-old me and get mad when his level 90 Feraligatr gets whooped by Pikachu after crushing the whole game)
There's only two real fixes to this:
>Go full Unova and make the game a one-track rollercoaster with no freedom to choose your own path.
OR
>Have trainers and Gym Leaders scale with the player's number of badges.
>Implement a FR/LG-esque Vs. Seeker.
>Implement Gen 5's exp. formula, or at least the half that helps underleveled mons.
I doubt that the GameBoy Color can technically handle the latter option, so I'm glad GameFreak made the choice they did.
Pikachu has Iron Tail in HG/SS (which I assure you is what almost everyone ITT is really discussing) so that's pretty iffy as well.
But in that game you have wild Steelix in the Cliff Cave so it's a non-issue.
>Go full Unova and make the game a one-track rollercoaster with no freedom to choose your own path
Unova had a trash “”level curve”” despite being linear.
why did you grind an axew until evolution before the 7th gym
>he needed to grind to beat Brycen
Brucen is pretty tough doe i mean that Astonish Vanillish is a big threat
>he needed to grind to beat Pryce
>get your shit deleted
>come back and do the exact same thing
there's a point at which trolling stops being trolling and starts being mental illness. you passed it years ago.
Tldr but bro you do not need to grind in any pokemon game
>Can someone explain to my why people think gen 2 has a bad level curve?
You barely ever see a wild pokemon above level 30 in the entirety of johto and then when you get to kanto it's back to level 3 pidgeys
Don't get me wrong, it's still my favourite gen but it's a very valid criticism that should have been addressed in the remakes.
Makes sense
Why are you bringing up XY up all of a sudden?
It's literally always about XY with this autist. Every single time. Every genwar with this guy turns into shitposting about XY because he enters every conversation to find a way to make it about defending XY, even when the topic has nothing to do with XY.
Is he wrong tho?
I think it is mentally ill to spam your agenda about XY everywhere so yeah he is wrong. If he's right, why be so insecure?
If he’s wrong, why be so insecure?
>parroting out of nowhere
Is "parroting" the new ESL go to?
You're calling ME brown after repeating my posts because you lack the skill to write your own?
>he thinks pikachu is the ultimate boss in the pokemon series
>he has no argument against damage calcs
sneed
>This is what the average kids takes into account
another gay jothoBlack person safe space thread
>Ask for Johto criticism
>"This is a Johto safe space thread"
I really have no idea what is going on in your mind, but it is not looking good
>tinking OP is honest
kek
I actually liked the criticism. Learn to open your mind sometime. ¯_(ツ)_/¯
>i like the criticism
>that's why i respond with NUH UH to all criticism
lol
>i didn't use a shitpost jotho image on purpose i SWEAR
lmao
> How is Johto hard?
I don’t know. Ask the anon I was quoting.
>Although I (and pretty much all kids around me back then) never had a "problem" with grinding/training to beat Red
it's not as bad in GSC because you have badge boosts and stat exp. meaning the player's pokemon in general are going to be a lot more effective. HGSS doesn't have these and the problem is a lot more apparent there.
I am not even doing that. Could you calm down for a second and realize just how silly you sound? This pretentious attitude only fuels the divided nature of the Pokemon fanbase.
I don't give a shit which ever gen is your favorite, that's all an opinion but stop and think, do I need to be so aggressive because some guy on the internet pointed out you have both a superiority and inferiority complex at the same time?
I think the funniest example of Johto's level curve is the Red Gyarados. It's level 30. Not a big deal, right?
But it can be the very first you get to after Morty's gym, which caps at level 25. Suddenly there's a very high chance the Gyarados you just caught outlevels your entire team, and not just that, but just about every single trainer you will be going up against in the near future.
The gym nearby? Nothing above 30 until you get to the gym leader, who is still only a little above 30 and has Piloswine ace that gets swept by Gyarados. The rocket HQ in the same town (which you can only access after fighting/catching the Red Gyarados)? A bunch of low level grunts and executives that can go as low as level 17 with unevolved Pokemon. All the routes surrounding and the paths to Chuck/Jasmine? You guessed it, level 20 or so (or lower) trainers. The lighthouse? Same deal. Chuck's ace? A level 30 Water/Fighting type that can't do shit to Gyarados. You get to Jasmine and there's finally a Pokemon decently above level 30, but once again it has a weakness to water and the scarier thing is the little Magnemites before it because of Gyarados' x4 weakness.
When you look at it all at once, it almost feels like the second half of Johto was literally designed around making Red Gyarados and making it feel as powerful as possible to advertise shinies. Comically so to the point where the most terrifying thing in your run will be the random Electrode in the Rocket HQ, you even get dragon moves for Clair's gym. It's probably a good thing that it has low special attack or it'd be a literal gamebreaker.
Don't forget about the level 50 surfable Magikarp on route 43 in HGSS.
>Weak-ass bait, there's no fricking way
>Checks Bulbapedia
What...the frick?
I had to check this myself because I thought I knew everything about HGSS but have never encountered any Lvl 50 Magikarp before.
werster manips one in his all gold prints run
it was put there by gamefreak for nuzlockes
it was put there by gamefreak because they didn't want to fix the level curve
So true sister.
The cianwood to mahogony portions ruin the flow of the game.
gen 2 has schrodinger's level curve where there isn't an immediately obvious issue until you want to add something new to your team, but all of the wild pokemon are 20 levels below everything else and trying to get them leveled up is obnoxiously slow.
wouldn't be so bad if so many of the gen 2 pokemon didn't have bizarrely low BSTs for how late you get them. looking at you, swinub
Johto's level curve issue is ironically from it doing something people constantly praise Kanto for: Having a nonlinear region.
After you beat Morty and open up your options with Surf, you're free to tackle Jasmine, Chuck and Pryce in any order you please, as well as their relevant areas. But because of this, and that the nonlinearity is deliberate, the levels heavily plateau for the duration of the next three gyms, and EVERY area is scaled with the belief that you could be coming here immediately after gaining Surf.
The level curve in Johto games is bad only for nuzlockers, since they have to grind a lot until the level cap. If you don't, you can easily beat the e4 with a level 33-37 team and then the levels in Kanto will finally make sense.
>johto thread
>somehow becomes a unova thread through seethe
Always
>thread about level curve
>no you cant possibly compare the level curves to other games nonono
>doesn't compare it to Kanto, the previous region
>doesn't compare it to Hoenn, the next region
>doesn't compare it to Sinnoh, the second-closest region geographically
>doesn't compare it to any new titles
>instead goes directly to Unova
The derangement is incredible
>compares it to the best gen
Whats the problem here again?
>”johto’s level curve would be fixed if they made it linear like unova”
>”wait why are people talking about unova now?”
to be fair, falkner and Bugsy are absolute jokes
a metapod and kakuna? fricking really?
The true redpill is realizing that you will not need to grind if you just use basically 4 mons for most of the johto games. Trying to use 6 mons was the most horrid experience.
the back half of Johto has really low level pokemon and trainers compared to where you should be, because they were trying to make it open world ish, but the result is it just becomes hard to keep up. you'll be fine if you only use a few pokemon, but trying to keep a full team of 6 you can fall behind really quickly. and god forbid you try to add a new member to your team after like gym 4, you'll be grinding for ages, made worse by the fact that theres no really good grinding spots because the wild pokemon are too low level. and then Kanto is just a joke, it's better in HGSS at least. but then you have another absurd grind to get to Red's level.
the thing is the Johto games are supposed to be slow burn, so it kind of works if you take your time, grind a lot, do trainer rematches, only rotate a couple pokemon etc. but the way people play now is different, trying to get through the story fast with a team of 6 is really tedious. and nuzlockes in gen 2 are basically self torture.
I've seen level curve memes and complaints for years now and I still don't know if the issue is enemies are too high or too low. I don't remember it being an issue when playing GS or its remakes.
Lucky for you, there's 10+ serious responses in this very thread for you to read.
Right, and in conclusion
>gen 2 requires grinding
>all the leaders and main trainers are low leveled
Do you see the issue?
No, obviously it depends on how you teambuild. That's literally what most of those responses said. With a full team, you probably have to grind because almost all the new mons are low leveled. So you go with 1-2 mons instead and suddenly you're overleveled.
You still don't need to grind. That's why these threads make no sense. A team of 6 is perfectly able to get through the game with no effort, like every pokemon game ever made.
This is only true because of
lol
I mean yeah, you can brute force your way through with underlevelled pokemon, it's not that hard. Same way you can brute force it with a single overlevelled pokemon. The criticism is more a reflection of how people prefer to play pokemon these days; most people if possible like to keep a balanced team somewhere around the level of upcoming bosses, and pokemon games after gen 2 have level curves that allow you to do so pretty naturally. Like a lot of criticisms of gen 2, our perspective is tainted by modern preferences and expectations largely set by gen 3 that the series has followed ever since. As a kid playing GSC for the first time in 2000, I doubt many people were really bothered by this. It's just now looking back, with our standards shaped by the games that came after, that this stuff stands out more. It's the same with the idea that Johto is lacking identity by being tethered to Kanto, or that the gen 2 dex is underwhelming. Because gen 3 soft rebooted the series and the pokedex and every gen since then has tried to do the same, we judge Johto according to that formula, and not as the sequel it was intended to be.
also it's been pointed out already, but the bigger hurdle than keeping your team up to snuff, is actually adding a new member. you can't add a pokemon past like the 3rd or 4th gym without it being vastly underleveled compared to the rest of your mons, so you need to grind to bring it up to speed, and again grinding is really painful in this game. so unless your team is solidified by the first few gyms you're SOL. gets even worse if you want to add a mon from the postgame or kanto and grind it up to par.
johto requires grinding BECAUSE everything is so low leveled
>johto requires grinding BECAUSE I'm terrible at the game and don't know any strategies beyond making my number match the NPC's number and then mashing the super effective button
This is a pretty funny take when most Johtoddlers don't know what setting up in battle means.
it's not the leaders necessarily, it's the trainers around them. you go from fighting level 20 trainers to fighting level 40 bosses. like others said, this is fine if you're only using 2-4 Pokemon, but if you're using a full team of 6 the level spikes will require grinding to take on bosses.
>the level spikes will require grinding
or you could just try not being fricking terrible at the game
Why do people who shit on Johto never cite literally anything specific? This anon is a perfect example.
It's literally a bad meme shills push to make you hate Gen 2.
>meme
Dude all trainers have the exact same level for like half the game. It's th eonly pokemon game that does this shit.
It's the only game where I recommend people to do the 7th gym before the 5th one kek. Do the gay Rocket Hideout garbage first so the levels make more sense, beat Pryce because he sucks that hard, then go westward.
>be virgin hack fraud malding
>make money grooming with nuzlocke videos
>actually be so terrible at the game you need to cheat
>blame gen 2 level curve to cope
>inspire thousands of election tourists to spam your garbage take
Yep, the king of /vp/ takes another W.
posts like these are what completely destroyed johto's reputation overnight
why did you sign your own post?
You wish that was true.
>Can someone explain why objectively bad thing is bad?
>objectively
Objectively.
Because levels actually matter in the older games. The new games have shit like this and are worse (these are the final 2 gyms). They just gave up.
>raihan has higher levels than karen
>and was still harder than all of gsc
based chad
>Still better than anything in johto
>hard
malding nuzlocke groomer
replying to the right post is harder than anything in johto apparently
seething
misdreavus makes me harder than anything in johto
too bad you can only use it for like 5 minutes in johto LOL