Getting into retro speedrun autism lately and something that I find strange is how SMB1 is basically the only game where the top ranked leaders are within milliseconds of one another. There are a few exceptions like Link to the Past and GoldenEye 007, but pretty much any other game's ladder has multiple seconds (sometimes even minutes) between the "best" players. Not just full game runs, smaller runs have very large deltas.
This got me thinking that the reason speedrunning old games is still so niche is not because it's necessarily too hard, it's because the scene is, ironically, not that competitive at all. Seeing a 40s difference between #1 and #2 for some NES game, or only five names on the leaderboard for a PS1 game, communicates to most people that it's not worth the effort, that it's easier to just let the game have its small gaggle of autists than push it to the absolute limit.
What do you guys think? Personally I'm opposed to the idea that any videogame is ever 'solved' since there can never be enough people throwing themselves at even the heavily optimized games like Contra or Super Metroid. The same goes for lesser-known ones, too.
>What do you guys think?
Speedrunners are gay.
Leave your heckin homophobia out of the speedrunning community, chud.
Haha make your parents proud for once and kys troony.
No one likes or cares about speedrunning because watching someone reset the game 500 times every 2 minutes is boring as shit. It will always remain niche.
>implying people dont just watch the records themselves and not the attempts
ive watched them off and on since like the mid or late 2000s. im not interested in doing it myself but they are quite entertaining to watch. games like mario 1 are getting more niche i would imagine just because of how unaccessible and difficult they are now to compete in. you'd probably have to put in a few years practice just to get top 10 or something. back in the early days it used to be just about turning the game on and playing it skillfully, but now you have to have in-depth knowledge of how the game is programmed to even be able to play it the right way.
I like watching them live every now and then, but for longer categories, usually 100%, where you don't see as many resets and most of the run is fast skill play.
>fast skill play
I should clarify to say that the runs will hinge more on the overall consistency and not on nailing just nailing 2 or 3 frame perfect 1/1000 glitches. There are of course tough moments that can make or break a run, but as long as it's not something as ridiculously optimized as SMB any%, they tend to be more survivable.
I disagree anon, if you look at karljobst's views plenty of people are interested at some level. That's not to say we don't all think they're mentally ill, just that they can be kind of interesting.
>watching someone reset the game 500 times every 2 minutes is boring as shit.
You're not supposed to do this. The idea of communities forming around watching streams of 'run attempts', as opposed to just watching best completed runs, is a ridiculous modern thing that nobody needs to care about.
>watching streams of 'run attempts'
You're not supposed to do this. Attempt streams are for keeping open on a second monitor while you work, and then watching every now and then when a run gets to the late game.
>SMB1 is basically the only game where the top ranked leaders are within milliseconds of one another.
This is because 99% of the game is just holding right and jumping. The sole difference between the top runs are a handful of jank tricks that save frames at best and are so precise and inconsistent that pulling them off in a run might as well be RNG.
>I'm opposed to the idea that any videogame is ever 'solved'
ironic considering SMB1 is a solved game and the only limit is human performance. as soon as someone achieves the well known perfect strategy the game will be 100% optimized and solved with no room for improvement.
>SMB1 is a solved game
>As soon as someone achieves the perfect strategy
Do you not see the contradiction here? It hasn't happened yet.
And what about the other categories like warpless? Those aren't anywhere close to being 'solved' for sure.
it's only a matter of time. the strategy and requirements are known and all that's missing is something moronic like 1 frame.
speedtrooning is gay as frick and so are you
I think it's effectively solved as far as tool assisted runs go. It's just a matter of a human being able to perform it in real time. It's possible there's some as of yet undiscovered exploit that blows the game wide open but considering how simple it is under the hood that seems unlikely.
>And what about the other categories like warpless?
I don't find it impressive or interesting when a record is something like warpless or glitchless. You're not maximizing the game, broadly speaking all that matters to me is any% and 100%. Every other category like "glitchless" "no wrong warp" etc. is bullshit. As an audience member I want to see insane people push the game to the limit, not their silly version of it.
I know it's not really the same thing, but isn't warpless generally viewed as the "100%" for SMB? Game doesn't really have a more natural definition for that category
It's clearing all of the levels, which if you warp you can't do. That's a thing you can visually track by looking at the map.
>That's a thing you can visually track by looking at the map.
SMB1 doesn't have a map. You can also "visually track" any rule requirement by simply watching the run.
By extention you would want all athletes roided out using corked bats in baseball and flippers in the swimming pool ect. The true allure of any sport is witnessing the effort and innate talent of the athlete. You are impressed by meaningless tangentials and your taste us shit.
Athletes exist in reality anon, in reality we make up shit so we can test our limits at different things.
Games are controlled worlds of their own, here's the controller go hog wild in this other world. You're doing an apples to oranges comparison and also not accounting for the human cost for something like roids.
>Every other category like "glitchless" "no wrong warp" etc. is bullshit.
Why?
You have to have categories because some games end up being stupid otherwise. Zelda ALTTP can be beaten in like 90 seconds by glitching your way to the ending right at the start of the game. Mario World is similar.
By all means, do whatever is fun for you I just think it's cope for people who don't like something and can't move on.
>I just think it's cope for people who don't like something and can't move on.
Why?
If you're speedrunning and someone finds a trick you don't like or want to do that saves time you either suck it up, make a new category or move to a different game. I have no respect for the second option. It's like if I got tired of three pointers in basketball and decided to make basketball no threes edition so I can be good at it.
Those people need to stop pussyfooting around the issue that their acquired skill has no glory or point now that the game is conquered in a faster time using a different skillset. Move to 100%, play a different game, play a romhack even but the game's any% "question" is solved and this is how to do it fast. Barring the one trick you don't like so you can live in the past gets no respect from me. Do if its fun but it has a qualifier for a reason, it's not the real record.
Even 100% runs have caveats because people can't always agree on what counts as 100%. What is 100% in an RPG? Do you have to max everyone's level to 99? Obtain one of every item in the game?
Obviously what is 100% for a game can sometimes be tricky and need definition, it's going to vary by game. Some games can have different endings too which would also create another category. There's a reason my post that sparked this said "broadly speaking" because I'm aware there's some nuance depending on the game.
Definitions and rules are just the same thing as splitting things into categories. Ultimately, people speedrun for fun, and they'd rather have 100% definitions that keep the game fun rather than strictly being what 100% completion would logically be.
A game like Twilight Princess is a good example. It's a pretty busy game with a lot to find and do over the course of a speedrun, but it also has a fishing catalogue. No one interested in speedrunning Twilight Princess is going to want to blow an extra 5 hours RNG fishing to catch like 30 different fish, so they just don't bother and focus on the rest of the game. It would make sense to have to fill it out, but no one would run 100% they had to, so they don't.
It's pretty rare for a game to have their 100% definition exclude something that's really questionable anyway.
>Ultimately, people speedrun for fun
That is the crux of it isn't it? On the one hand I understand, on the other my interest in arbitrary rules and omissions is very low as a viewer. I tend to avoid games and categories like that. Do it or don't I say.
Maybe I wasn't clear enough, rule changes in basketball are major and come from an actual source of authority, the video game equivalent would be a new patch or revision to the game you're playing. What speedrunners do is equivalent to what some pushy people do at at the park when it comes to rules. It may hold true at that park and/or when that guy is there but it's ultimately not the gold standard that is official basketball.
>and come from an actual source of authority
Who would be an actual source of authority for speedrunning a game, if not the people who speedrun the game?
>the video game equivalent would be a new patch or revision to the game
The devs are not speedrunners, so why should their opinion be relevant to anything?
>Who would be an actual source of authority for speedrunning a game
The actual game.
>The devs are not speedrunners, so why should their opinion be relevant to anything?
They made the fricking thing.
The game represents the thing we're competing at, speedrunners compete at it. Its the game maker's world and we're just living in it. If we find a way to break his rules or skip things that's great but the game is the game is the game. The game is not the game but don't do that.
>The game represents the thing we're competing at
No, the speedrun does. Speedrunners are competing with one another, not John Doe who plays games for the music.
The debate we're having boils down to what the speedrun is. I think it's getting to the end as fast as possible, you think it's sometimes that sometimes let's ban this and that if it hurts my delicate sensibilities. I think the disagreement is too foundational for either of us to budge.
>The debate we're having boils down to what the speedrun is.
A speedrun is people trying to complete a set of established rules in a video game as fast as possible.
Even "instrinsic" categories like any% and 100% have arbitrations made in service of player quality of life, like start and end times.
>I think it's getting to the end as fast as possible
If that were the case, individual level speedruns wouldn't be possible.
> you think it's sometimes that sometimes let's ban this
You can still run any% even if a trick is banned in any% no major glitches, but no one will join you, because no one wants to speedrun a garbage category for the sake of imaginary purism.
>I think it's getting to the end as fast as possible
lmao. so i guess you won't mind if i use the level skip cheat code i found in nintendo power magazine. it's the fastest way to beat the game, after all.
This is the kind of answer I expect on Ganker, not here.
You're right, competitors is necessary for a thing to be competitive and a lot of communities of competitors disagree with me. It's fine, not trying to tell them what to do. Just sharing my own view.
>This is the kind of answer I expect on Ganker, not here.
He's completely right, though. According to your braindead definition of speedrunning, anyone doing a speedrun should be able to use a game's hard-coded cheats to beat it faster.
>Just sharing my own view.
While neglecting to coherently address any of my arguments.
Because you're splitting hairs to find the small flaw and "win" and I'm too old and too checked out for that kind of discussion. You win.
>Because you're splitting hairs to find the small flaw and "win"
Being allowed to use cheats in a speedrun is a pretty big fricking steak in the heart of your reasoning. Let's not try to minimize it.
How are exploits cheating?
What if it's not cheat codes but passwords? I know some passwords by heart. Did I speedrun the game by Justin Bailey-ing my way to the end?
If the game's speedrunning community allows you to, then yes. Speedrunning is completely arbitrary and some games are run with mods to remove annoying RNG.
>Speedrunning is completely arbitrary
that's entirely the point. Why do you autists just jump into conversations without knowing what's going on?
>exploits
Anon, I was talking about literal cheat codes you input in the game. Read the conversation before posting.
>They made the fricking thing.
Their unintended frick ups are typically what speedrunners rely on in the first place. What makes you think they deserve a say?
speedrunning already inherently disregards literally all of the ways devs want players to approach video games. i don't see why you arbitrarily draw the line at patches
>It's like if I got tired of three pointers in basketball and decided to make basketball no threes edition so I can be good at it.
No one tell this guy how many times they've changed the rules in basketball.
Collectively changing the game is like a balance patch or a sequel. It's not a group of 10 weirdos on one website deciding it and then calling it official.
>Collectively changing the game
That's how speedrunning works, moron. The speedrunning community for any given game collectively decides the categories and their rules.
Right but having the categories is exactly what allows people to do that. If you only considered raw speed and nothing else then every record would be some bugged out nonsense for 30 seconds and then the ending. And everyone would be disincentivized from running the game "for real" because there'd be no glory in it when their best time is 1000x slower. People know the super glitchy shit isn't the most fun stuff to watch. It's fun to see someone utterly demolish a game's code...once...just to see that it can be done. But after that everyone watches "real" runs for entertainment.
>implying there couldnt be unknown glitches/strats than will be able to save time in the future
its a very very small game anon
you can just go look at it in its entirety. how do you think they ended up with all these frame-rule specific bullshit tricks? trial and error? the game can only even be optimized in 21 frame intervals due to how the game refreshes/checks for triggers
further optimization means executing literal TAS inputs RTA while still staying on the required frame-rules for the entirety of the game
tl;dr
literally no
i will enjoy your shocked pikachu face when the game is further shortened, like literally every video game ever when someone said the same stupid shit you just did
and you would be right in literally any other title
theres dozens of vids out there on this specific run that can just go explain it to you so im not gonna spoonfeed you
Niftski's sum of best ties the TAS in only 2 segments. Perfect run is possible.
Imagine playing the same fricking game over and over and over again every single day just to get a 5 minute dopamine high out of your worthless existence. Speedtroons are worse than methheads
>not that competitive at all
I think speedrunning is kinda popular to watch nowadays with videos from summoning salt getting 1 million views soon after he uploads something.
Now actually playing the games is another story. I don't think it will ever become popular because of how boring and repetitive it is. Imagine playing the same game 6 hours a day for years just to try to get a record. And this isn't like multiplayer games where the maps are the same but the games are always slightly different from each other thanks to the human opponents; these are singleplayer games with predictable enemies where reach run is exatly the same. You're basically memorizing the whole game and playing it over and over again until you get it perfect. That's whole other level of autism that not even average aspies like me are willing to try.
That's because it's a short game and the same thing every time. Newer games have a lot of different orders that you can do things and different ways to play.
>very popular game everyone has and everyone played to the point that it's synonymous with video games and even the most normal of normalgays reference in some way or another when talking about vidya has the most records
Wow.
this is the only time ive ever been interested in a speedrun to the point where i watched it live
cool stuff
painfully autistic, but still very impressive and skillful play sprinkled in there in-between the unfettered autism of changing map ids by falling OoB while holding a specific angle
I lost interest in OoT speedruns once they found arbitrary code execution tbh. I personally only like Speedruns when they still look like normal gameplay just really optimized. OoT speedruns were always pretty glitchy but the code execution shit just made them completely incoherent.
Segmented runs were never compared competitively against single segment runs.
>I lost interest in OoT speedruns once they found arbitrary code execution
the any% sure is fricking useless so i definitely feel you. though imo that run was always just too stupid, even back when it was popular. fricking HESSing off randomly dropping rocks. no wonder the poor guy trooned out
>completely incoherent
and thats the thing: i always much preferred TAS stuff so i have a high tolerance for that crap. i definitely get it though.
i especially like the TAS stuff that isnt necessarily just "beat it as fast as possible". the no-doors OoT TASs are particularly interesting and iirc there were a few with full commentary, which is kinda mandatory for that type of stuff
>I lost interest in OoT speedruns once they found arbitrary code execution tbh.
Why? It's not like the categories that don't use SRM went anywhere.
This. Glitches and exploits are cool when they are coherent and can be somewhat readily grasped and lead to logical sequence breaks. It's great seeing players exploit the game's physics to reach a ledge they're not meant to reach without a specific item, or glitching through a door or obstacle that's not supposed to open before doing something in the story. Shit like wrong warps or outright giving yourself items out of nowhere or whatever the frick is just bewildering if you're not intimately familiar with the game's programming, and it completely breaks the immersion and ultimately pulls back the curtain on the fact that this is just a program that can be made to do all kinds of shit by triggering the right conditions without any regard to things like level design. Now, if you are the type that likes to do a deep dive into how the game's logic works, I'm sure it's interesting, but from an entertainment point of view, it's absolute shit. Of course, I realize there's categories that are made with this in mind, putting limitations on certain glitches so that you don't just go to the credits after a few minutes of incoherently running around, but I guess I just feel like it's one of those things where the genie's out of the bottle, and even if you refrain from acknowledging it, said genie is still there regardless, and it sort of cheapens other runs, but that's just me.
And just to clarify what I mean about the existence of mega gamebreaking glitches cheapening runs that don't use them: Think back to when glitches and exploits started being found that made completing dungeons or defeating bosses faster. Just about everyone was cool with those. Then it turns out some of those could be used to straight-up skip entire dungeons. Most people were cool with those, though here you already saw categories spring up that did go through them for those who wanted to see those skipped dungeons being beaten as fast as possible (including 100%, of course), but in any case, they were accepted because you still went through something of a logical progression through the game, and Any% is about beating it as quick as possible, right? Well, then shit like RBA came about where you just do a bunch of shit no one but a few autists understood and you could literally give yourself items without actually obtaining them through the game's progression, and it's like, are you even actually playing through the game at that point? And it just got worse, all the way up to ACE. Now, rightfully people understood those exploits were so huge they tore away any semblance of normal gameplay, so new categories were made, but it's like, now you have to identify when a glitch or exploit becomes TOO gamebreaking, and it sort of casts doubt on the definition and essence of a speedrun. Is it to reach the ending credits as fast as possible? Then you'd be dumb not to use EVERYTHING at your disposal, ACE included. Is it to play through the game as fast as possible, but as intended? If so, does using RBA cut too much out of said "intended progression?" What about skipping temples? Shit, what about skipping entire sections of temples? See what I mean?
I guess tl;dr: When an exploit like ACE becomes possible, if you use it, the run is incoherent if you are not familiar with what's going on, and just boring in general. If you don't use it, everyone knows you're purposely limiting yourself and not using the actual fastest strategy to beat the game.
its almost like entering the level skip in sonic and saying ha ha I did an ACE but I still like stuff like mario 64 backwards jumping up the stairs because many people tried it back in the day.
the best ones are when they do it live in a race, you got to take the good with the bad
ACE shouldn't be allowed because you're not running the original game. A romhack is still a romhack even if you patch it via gameplay.
frickin saving this shit, speedrunning is such a feast or famine pastime, either fun and captivating or mind-numbingly bland and technical
The biggest problem is how much game knowledge you need these days, both to run AND to follow the runs. It used to be as the runner, you did need game knowledge, but mostly in terms of optimal routing and strategies for getting past obstacles and quickly defeating enemies, as well as tricks to pull off, some more difficult than others. The viewer, in turn, could be entertained just by watching the result. Obviously, the more familiar you were with the game and how it's normally played, the more you were likely to be impressed, but even a casual viewer could be entertained so long as the run itself followed a coherent progression and didn't make too many obvious mistakes. But once they began delving so deep into the uber-technical aspects like frame rules and RNG manipulation and other shit like that, it becomes harder and harder for the runner to optimize and harder and harder for the viewer to appreciate what's happening in the run, especially if pulling off a time save requires the player to do something utterly unintuitive that leads to results that straight-up do not follow if you're not familiar with the code.
You can tell its borked when during marathons speedrunners have to explain trick after trick, then you watch their stream and they never discuss a thing, since the people watching are so ingrained and have seen it hundreds and hundreds of times over. What a sad relationship.
It's not a retro game, but last I checked doom eternal speedrunning was completely ruined because the crossbow had some insane physics exploit so a run was just watching the camera shake wildly as the level dashed past. Just the most boring shit.
Speedruns really should have special categories that specifically remove exploits that are too overpowering and boring to watch.
They don't do speedrun just so you can enjoy watching them you entitled chud.
>Speedruns really should have special categories that specifically remove exploits that are too overpowering and boring to watch
They almost always do, but again, the issue is you and everyone else knows you're purposely limiting yourself when you don't use the glitch. It's not like with low% runs (in games where low% and any% aren't the same thing, that is) where you limit yourself but in a way that makes sense. This is limiting yourself because the run is otherwise stupid as frick for everyone involved. I feel like it casts a shadow on the whole thing when shit like that exists.
>2007
>find out about speedruns
>check out my favorite game
>62 segment run
>world record
>the guy did each level individually and added up the times
>be 100m sprinter
>first 50m in 3.1 secs
>last 50m in 8.4 secs
>try again the next day with a different strat
>first 50m in 9.6 secs
>last 50 min 3.4 secs
>that means I did 100m in 6.5 secs
>that's a world record
Pretty sure they phased this out over time but it's a good reminder not to take any of this stuff too seriously.
It is kind of weird that splicing is now seen as some terrible thing
im sure the whole scene is riddled with cheaters
you got a lot of real out-there geeks who suddenly find some small attention online and then they just lose their minds trying to grind impossible odds. would make a cheater out of damn near anyone imo, let alone someone that starved for any recognition whatsoever
Segmented runs were accepted because video recording was so shit back then. A full run would result in too big a file.
All the high IQ non-trannies do TAS
It's just due to popularity and the simplicity of Super Mario Bros.
Super Metroid is another game that is extremely close between players.
Super Mario Bros. runs are so close together that it makes me wonder if you could squeeze a frame save out of using a different set of Famicom hardware.
Something like a Famicom Titler.
Or a Sharp Twin Famicom.
Or maybe the original square button Famicom.
I assume speedrunners have already thought of this and tested it, so I guess not.
Considering that Dragon Quest speedrunners found a way to speed up their runs by putting their Famicoms on a hot plate, it's possible. I'm sure they tried all official hardware though. Once you start fricking with the system's functionality by deliberately overheating it I'd say you're in Game Genie territory.
>Dragon Quest speedrunners found a way to speed up their runs by putting their Famicoms on a hot plate
This isn't actually allowed in runs, btw.
>Considering that Dragon Quest speedrunners found a way to speed up their runs by putting their Famicoms on a hot plate,
hahaha that is the craziest speedrunning tactic I have ever heard.
Rule is a bit artificial since there's no official surface you're meant to put your famicom on. How do you know someone doesn't always put their famicom on a hotplate?
>How do you know someone doesn't always put their famicom on a hotplate?
Because you can watch their run and see that the game is exhibiting that behavior.
>hahaha that is the craziest speedrunning tactic I have ever heard.
The NES is wacky when you start fricking with things like heat and undervolting. Somebody decided to run it on AA batteries and play it until the juice ran out.
>I assume speedrunners have already thought of this and tested it, so I guess not.
They might be faster, but inaccurate emulation tends to be banned in speedrunning unless it's an official release, like Wii Virtual Console.
>but inaccurate emulation tends to be banned in speedrunning
Lmao look at emu rules for sm64
>Lmao look at emu rules for sm64
Yeah, emulation is a separate category for SM64, and only a single version of one emulator (project 64 1.6) is even allowed for that. What's your point?
Using a Famicom Titler or Sharp Twin Famicom would not be emulation. Those are officially licensed and released variations of the Famicom console with 100% real Famicom hardware inside them.
This is getting to be a problem over time. It's getting harder and harder to find Donkey Kong cabinets with original sticks in them. People complain, not unjustifiably, that replacements can change the game, no different than if you handed someone a third party N64 controller. People are going to have to start making peace with this shit soon.
That's so sad. I hope he managed to retire after that.
Fricking kek. Please tell me he didn't troon out after this.
Nah, Goose is based and made fun of trannies and got ban for it. He later apologized, but instead of going back to speedrunning, he went to do his own thing.
I'm curious how the community would deal with someone who is breaking records left and right but is also a giant shithead to them. Like if they issue bans on the guy who's the current record holder. Or would they Chris Benoit him and pretend he doesn't exist?
There aren't many games that are good targets for speedrunning. It's pretty much just platformers and some strategy games because the routing is interesting. I am flabbergasted that people speedrun lengthy rpgs and that there actually exist spectators for it. Using "game breaking" glitches is a passing fad. People will always enjoy optimizing routes but eventually they'll admit to themselves that it's pointless if the routes are invalidated by the discovery of new glitches. The novelty of watching the execution of a glitch wears off fast and the intended game play is almost always more entertaining to watch and compete against.
I want to see someone with skill play through a game in an optimized way. Not going through walls and abusing rng.
Speedruns completely lost the plot when they became about getting the credits to scroll. Which was basically immediately after they stopped being just Super Metroid.
Speedrunning has become the equivalent of special olympics for zoomers.
These leaderboards are pretty moronic since anyone could cheat them with recorded input or otherwise.
>NES Emu
Second place is the true WR.
>Getting into retro speedrun autism lately.
Oh... I'm so sorry, OP. I mean, this is how it starts, you get into speedrunning thinking it's all just harmless fun... suddently you're taking hormones and sitting on an operation room so ~~*they*~~ can cut your dick off... stay safe, OP.
> i wanna speedgay
find a game you wanna run and just do it.
> only five names on the leaderboard for a PS1 game, communicates to most people that it's not worth the effort
who the frick cares? the unoptimized ones are more fun IMO; i always found routing much more enjoyable than grinding.