That was the most moronic fricking shit in history.
PTs target unrepentant CRIMINALS. This guy and Maruki target literally everyone.
Zenkichi was the only good thing to come out of this poorly written trite.
He’s wrong because the phantom thieves change hearts by making gays realize they’re gays consumes by distorted desires meanwhile he wishes to force people to change hearts by enslaving them with an all powerful AI which in the end was a means to bring about the satanical demiurge incarnate in earth.
unless they are jokers friends, in which case is okay to be a homicidal maniac that never pays for his crimes including orphaning one of your other friends
when the bloody frick did anyone in the game ever forgive akechi? And no, trying to convince him not to kill himself is not forgiveness. Neither is teaming up with him against a bigger bad.
That was the most moronic fricking shit in history.
PTs target unrepentant CRIMINALS. This guy and Maruki target literally everyone.
Zenkichi was the only good thing to come out of this poorly written trite.
The fact he had a treasure developing meant if left alone he would have developed a treasure. It's not like the PTs can just change anyone they want, they are only able to change the minds of people who have an obsessive fixation that is ruining them.
can't be judge jury and executioner that's now how justice works
The PTs do shit because the law wont. If the law wont protect its people, someone has to.
Now try and tell me it's okay for a tyrant to manipulate and abuse their people because "it's the law". Go on.
imagine actually believing the phantom thieves had a point when even the first game calls them out for being hypocrites, also you need to be 18 to post in here.
>you dont know that for sure
He had a treasure. It's a guarantee. The only one it didn't work on was Mishima, and they still wound up talking to his subconscious which helped him throw away the treasure on his own.
unless they are jokers friends, in which case is okay to be a homicidal maniac that never pays for his crimes including orphaning one of your other friends
when the bloody frick did anyone in the game ever forgive akechi? And no, trying to convince him not to kill himself is not forgiveness. Neither is teaming up with him against a bigger bad.
Didn't female teacher avoided being exposed as pedophile who broke law, just because she promised to let Joker skip a school, and told him how he's mature for his age?
Felt like a way bigger crime than just cheating in video games
I mean, this double standard already exists in reality. You'll see female teachers get a proverbial slap on the wrist for sleeping with a male student, or even successfully getting child support from a male minor if they knock her up.
The only time he’s actively an “butthole” is when you are trespassing on his property. His shadow acts like an butthole yeah, but if you actually take what shadows say at face value then naoto is trans, kanji is gay, and Futaba killed her mother
Madarame purposefully let someone die (manslaughter?) so he could steal their painting and pass it off as his own (plagiarism), faked that it was stolen (fraud?), and then sold forgeries while claiming they were the real deal (definitely fraud). His real self, not his shadow, confessed to all of these things.
He’s wrong because the phantom thieves change hearts by making gays realize they’re gays consumes by distorted desires meanwhile he wishes to force people to change hearts by enslaving them with an all powerful AI which in the end was a means to bring about the satanical demiurge incarnate in earth.
There's nothing wrong with that because Maruki is not Yaldabaoth and from what we have seen of him he'd have humanity's best interests in mind. Plus you don't even know if in the real world we already got Maruki'd or not. There's also the fact that in our current world there's more people suffering than people not suffering thus from an objective point of view, Maruki's intended utopia would be an upgrade, anyone who says that he's wrong only enjoys "free will" because they are currently not suffering, if they were some Indian streetshitter that can barely eat every two days or a Mexican one or two years away from starring in a Kaotic video they's strongly disagree, and since in the world there are more poor, miserable people than rich, happy people I insist that MARUKI DID NOTHING WRONG FRICK JOKER AND FRICK THE PH*NTOM THIEVES
This would happen right after he switched the world but two generations later it wouldn't matter anymore.
maruki's vision of a perfect world where everyone is happy is just another delusion to create perfect order. in what ways would society change? or would he simply brainwash everyone to be content at whatever their current life is? how would he resolve international conflicts or economic issues?
>or would he [deranged babble]
Your point is stupid because he is NOT Yaldabaoth thus he would be able to adjust accordingly by understanding his mistakes.
maruki puts himself as the ultimate judge of what is "good". that's the evil part, that he considers himself above everyone and if you're not happy in his world he'll just brainwash you to be happy. three people want to be the best at chess? he'll pick one and chage the other two so they don't like chess anymore
That's not evil though and he clearly doesn't consider himself above everyone else given he entertained Joker's moronic tantrum. And in the """"""""""bad ending""""""""""" you can see his answer to everything wasn't brainwashing, and even if it was it wouldn't matter because 1. you'd be better off 2. you don't know if that already happened in the regular world.
>he only brainwashed some people, he's not bad >he didn't outright say he considers him above all, he just acts as if he knows better than anyone else concerning what makes them happy
why are you here? go on twitter and reddit, join a hive mind and only have the opinions media tell you to have
3 months ago
Anonymous
These opinions do not make me happy though nor are they aimed towards making a better world, thus they are not similar to what Maruki proposes.
3 months ago
Anonymous
i bet if they made a pill that made you be happy eith them you'd take it instantly
3 months ago
Anonymous
If every single human was forced to take them I'd have no issue with that, the problem is that in the real world that's never what happens.
maruki's vision of a perfect world where everyone is happy is just another delusion to create perfect order. in what ways would society change? or would he simply brainwash everyone to be content at whatever their current life is? how would he resolve international conflicts or economic issues?
maruki puts himself as the ultimate judge of what is "good". that's the evil part, that he considers himself above everyone and if you're not happy in his world he'll just brainwash you to be happy. three people want to be the best at chess? he'll pick one and chage the other two so they don't like chess anymore
The fact the PT keep running into the same issue of "Stop being hypocrites" really should tell them that maybe trying to justify their brand of mind control as just might actually be wrong.
Of course the PT always has the winning killshot regardless of philosophical debate on the topic of impeding free will of "try and stop me, homosexual"
Going in and manipulating someone's mind is not supporting free will
They don't rob people of their free will. They remove the magical cancer that's turning them into a tunnel-visioned maniac. They also speak directly to their shadows (the unconscious mind) which convinces them to change.
THIS!! Also, if you think about it, the justice system is just as bad. Locking a person away just for rape and murder? That's like coercion. That's taking away someone's free will.
3 months ago
Anonymous
>No, no, we're not brainwashing people, we're helping them see the error of their ways, it's reformation >You're literally threatening to kill them if they don't comply >WELL IF THAT'S EVIL THEN ARRESTING PEOPLE AND PUTTING THEM ON TRIAL IS JUST AS BAD
3 months ago
Anonymous
>>You're literally threatening to kill them if they don't comply
Yeah the police/FBI do that and it's fricked up. People shouldn't be treated like that just because they rape, steal, kill and assassinate their way into political power.
3 months ago
Anonymous
Anon, I'm not sure you know how the Justice system works, but when a person is accused of having broken the law, they're arrested, put on trial to determine if they actually did break the law, and then given a punishment based on that
When the police harm someone, it's because they resist and become an immediate danger to those around them by threatening to harm someone else
The PTs pick targets based on (easily-rigged) popular opinion, skip determining how guilty they are before diving in, threaten them with brain death if they don't confess to their accused crime, and justify it by saying "Well that's how it's worked so far in this mumbo-jumbo magic world that not a single one of us fully understands"
They're dumbass kids who turned getting back at personal slights into a vigilante business where they act as unlicensed judge and executioner for the sake of fame, and get away with it
3 months ago
Anonymous
So what you're saying is everything is okay as long as the law doesn't catch you.
3 months ago
Anonymous
I mean, it worked for Joker, since nobody could prove he or the PTs did anything
>skip determining how guilty they are before diving in
If they have a palace, the person is definitely fricked up or mentally disturbed. Not only are they getting information from the abused in the real world, they can go into the palace owner's mindspace and see how they feel about the abused as well, usually which amounts to "I know I'm doing horrible shit and that's fine by me muahahaha". That's how palaces work.
>If they have a palace, the person is definitely fricked up or mentally disturbed.
According to who? The magic cat born less than a year ago who admits that he's just guessing?
And of course, they don't target JUST people who have palaces: they also target people who people whine about on their social media page. What's stopping a jerk from using the site to sicc the PTs on someone who disagreed with him? The fact that the victim has a guilty conscience, as if good people never feel any malicious emotions ever?
And as one last note, if "everyone who has a palace is fricked up or mentally disturbed", I think Joker has some explaining to do.
3 months ago
Anonymous
PTs can't do shit if you don't have a twisted desire. all the targets are said to have the seed of a palace growing inside them, you're just nipping them in the bud
3 months ago
Anonymous
>skip determining how guilty they are before diving in
If they have a palace, the person is definitely fricked up or mentally disturbed. Not only are they getting information from the abused in the real world, they can go into the palace owner's mindspace and see how they feel about the abused as well, usually which amounts to "I know I'm doing horrible shit and that's fine by me muahahaha". That's how palaces work.
3 months ago
Anonymous
Anon, the original point of this chain of replies is that the Phantom Thieves are just lawgays. Saying "NO THEY'RE NOT THEY JUST DO STUFF THAT'S LIKE LOCKING PEOPLE UP FOR BREAKING THE LAW" is not an argument against them being lawgays. Objectively speaking, punishment for crimes is restrictive of free will. In most cases, it's a good thing, but it's still restricting free will and it's still law.
3 months ago
Anonymous
>Phantom Thieves are just lawgays
They're not, they're specifically fighting against law figures because the justice system can't do shit to them or the people they're saving won't stand up for themselves.
3 months ago
Anonymous
No, they're FOR the law and against the MISUSE and abuse of the law.
Makoto wants to be police comish for fricks sake.
3 months ago
Anonymous
Oh yeah, "BAD ADULTS," another example of great writing these games have.
3 months ago
Anonymous
More like a great example of fundamentally misunderstanding Japanese culture for the last 50 years.
3 months ago
Anonymous
Elaborate.
3 months ago
Anonymous
Resentment towards "adults" goes back to Showa era. The sense that the previous generation has fricked the country over and the young generation are left to fend for themselves while old men play at ruling the world is deeply ingrained in Japanese society. You think P5 is unique? That resentment exists in all the Persona games if not all Japanese culture.
3 months ago
Anonymous
... ... ... What? I don't remember P4 cast screaming "FRICK ADULTS, ADULTS ARE CORRUPTED AND EVIL" constantly, like they did in P5.
I refuse to believe there is some kids vs. adults war going on in Japan.
3 months ago
Anonymous
3 months ago
Anonymous
That's not P4 though. And kids being frustrated with adults and their rules is universal when kids are mostly immoral annoying brats.
3 months ago
Anonymous
... ... ... What? I don't remember P4 cast screaming "FRICK ADULTS, ADULTS ARE CORRUPTED AND EVIL" constantly, like they did in P5.
I refuse to believe there is some kids vs. adults war going on in Japan.
It's more like a cultural undertone. Emperor Tomato Ketchup is probably the most brazen example of this desire for the youth to "usurp" the authority of the elder generation. I think it has more to do with Japanese losing the war and being forced to emulate the american public school model than anything else.
3 months ago
Anonymous
lmao you're the moron who keeps spouting the "bad adults" shit like it's gunna stick.
3 months ago
Anonymous
It has been a meme for years, newbie. A meme based on truth. You don't think the PTs have resentment towards adults in P5?
3 months ago
Anonymous
>It has been a meme for years
That doesn't make it correct or accurate. In fact, that usually means it's a forcibly pushed shitpost.
Here's the truth:
1. Ryuji is the only one talking about shitty adults.
2. 2 adults in the story are very supportive and central to the plot to help the PTs.
3. Ryuji is really just pissed at corrupt authority, as is the central point of the game.
basically you never played the game.
3 months ago
Anonymous
You never played the game, Ann whines about adults too. Not only Ryuji. Probably Morgana too, even when he's a shadow. I have a foggy memory that Yusuke does that too in some line, but would have to check.
A game having a few adults the PTs approve doesn't mean they couldn't cry about adults all the time.
3 months ago
Anonymous
>A meme based on truth
Memes are almost never based on truth. It's the same with popular things usually focusing on the lowest common denominator and the best way to do that is to be really accessible (I.E. shit)
Memes are the same way. Memes get pushed because people get tired of correcting you gays, and most times when you get corrected, that makes you wanna push the meme HARDER.
3 months ago
Anonymous
There's no use talking to a fanboy like you, no such thing as critical thought exists in your head. You guys already revealed you live in your /pg/ thread, that's enough of a red flag for anyone who wants to have a level-headed discussion about the games. You are denying the most obvious things anyone notices when they play the games. That's why they become memes.
FOR REAL?!
Actually, that's not a meme, it's not based on reality... Not related to P5, doesn't happen... Ryuji never says that...
3 months ago
Anonymous
They will deny that Ryuji is a blabbermouth who talks too loudly and openly about their PT secrets. That's how delusional and stupid /pg/tards are.
3 months ago
Anonymous
i really dont get why dubgays are so defensive about ryuji
he is a loudmouth dumbass, why deny it?
3 months ago
Anonymous
>Violent behavior is good. PTs are the good guys. Brainwashing good.
This is your brains on /pg/.
3 months ago
Anonymous
literally nobody denies that or disagrees, fanboys or haters or otherwise. In fact he is the reason why "ADULTS BAD" became a meme, he never shuts up about it.
3 months ago
Anonymous
You just denied characters in the game say lines they do say, so you are not trustworthy when it comes to this game.
3 months ago
Anonymous
>You just denied characters in the game say lines they do say
Wrong, I said Ryuji was the only one who kept going on about shitty adults.
3 months ago
Anonymous
Who is Ann? Who is Futaba?
3 months ago
Anonymous
my wives
3 months ago
Anonymous
Nobody denies that. Ryuji's moronic, so I'm not sure why ADULTS BAD became such a meme when that's obviously Ryuji throwing a fit all the time.
There's no use talking to a fanboy like you, no such thing as critical thought exists in your head. You guys already revealed you live in your /pg/ thread, that's enough of a red flag for anyone who wants to have a level-headed discussion about the games. You are denying the most obvious things anyone notices when they play the games. That's why they become memes.
FOR REAL?!
Actually, that's not a meme, it's not based on reality... Not related to P5, doesn't happen... Ryuji never says that...
You haven't provided anything of substance. Being critical doesn't mean you can just throw around lies and exaggerations and have everyone bend the knee to you because it's protected by the umbrella term "criticism". Your criticisms aren't valid, they're childish, shallow and usually mislead. I also don't visit /pg/ so if you wanna take your beef to them, go there instead of Ganker. > That's why they become memes.
They become memes because you won't shut up about them.
Just like the "humans can't POSSIBLY defeat Servants" thing in Fate/Stay Night was a meme despite being debunked several times in the first few hours of the VN. It continued as a meme for 10 fricking years.
So, sorry if I don't see the validity in your dumbass shit.
3 months ago
Anonymous
>why ADULTS BAD became a meme
Because the brats keep whining about adults throughout the game which creates a shared easily-relatable experience and it's not limited to Ryuji. You'd know this, had you played the game.
Why would I speak with you further when it's clear you have no critical thought? You're a fanboy.
3 months ago
Anonymous
>Why would I speak with you further when it's clear you have no critical thought?
Because you can't help yourself, you're desperate to validate your knee jerk reactions and half-assed "criticisms" and can't provide anything but an arrogant insistence that you're correct.
3 months ago
Anonymous
Is Batman a Chaosgay because he's a vigilante, or is he a Lawgay because he punishes criminals that break the law and deeply values the spirit and essence of the law?
Chaos becomes Law when the all-powerful take control. Law breaks into Chaos when people are sick of being governed by the corrupt. This is the whole mandala, and the reason why Lucifer regrets becoming God in SMT5.
the phantom thieves never mind controlled anyone. they only make a person realize their distorted desires. it up ultimately up to the palace owner to change their ways. this is stressed many times. in fact in persona 5 all the people who changed their hearts ended up not learning much since they are so much of homosexuals that they would rather live in a prison of their own making instead of truly acknowledging their mistakes and seeking forgiveness.
I never played persona 5 and never will.
Does no one the phantom thieves went after actually have enough spine to tell them to frick off even after losing? Did the phantom thieves ever have to kill anyone?
>Does no one the phantom thieves went after actually have enough spine to tell them to frick off even after losing?
No because the cause of their actions is a mental block called a "treasure" which twists their mentality and makes them sociopathic. Usually after a treasure is stolen and a shadow is defeated, the person in question becomes incredibly remorseful and rushes to the police to confess their crimes. The treasure distorts them.
The main characters literally have discussions of this, they don't exactly think they're doing inherently good things forcing a change of heart, but it's that or shit gets really bad because their targets are just that fricked up, never mind the lingering threats directly pushed onto their circle. Yeah they're hypocrites, but they're aware of it.
It doesn't seem hypocritical to me. It's like prison. Putting an innocent person in prison is a bad thing, but putting a truly guilty person in prison is good
trannie homosexuals like maruki because then they could just keep on living their lies and grooming children without taking self responsibility.
NPCS/hylics truly are a thing.
>immoral
at the very start a little bit and then never again, if you're referring to the brainwashing thing. Outside of that, their musings are mostly just about if it's okay for them to act in self interest in regards to shaping society.
That is not pertaining to them actually brainwashing people and doing something that nigh on constitutes ego death. For that they have one conversation and decide that they're in the right.
They literally ask themselves if they're really doing the right thing any time it comes up and the finale is specifically about them realizing they were just sending the shadows they beat back to the prison for people's souls.
>They literally ask themselves if they're really doing the right thing any time it comes up
In regards to being vigilantes and thus changing / influencing society, not in regards to mindraping people. That happens the once, after Kamoshida does his little spiel about suicide during the assembly.
>specifically about them realizing they were just sending the shadows they beat back to the prison for people's souls.
Exactly, it was wrong of them to do that. They should have let Kamoshida rape more little girls and Kaneshiro sell drugs to kids and Shido assassinate more people for power and fame.
It was not wrong of them to do something, but there methods were enabling an even greater evil who was literally the one giving your main character his marching orders as part of some sick bet/game.
Nah, the original characters actually stand for something larger than the characters themselves which ties in better with the theme of the game. Strikers antagonists are exposition dumping clowns who are given half-assed sobstories to make gullible morons sympathize with them.
Fricking Akira Konoe is the second best antagonist in the P5 series and even though he's just supposed to be a Shiddo stand in, he's much more entertaining and interesting as an actual character.
And cooler.
He's also better than Madarame as a character, who's just kinda boring outside of the >did he love Yusuke or not
angle.
And he and his palace / jail are much more fun, too.
>He's also better than Madarame as a character
Did I miss something? Natsume's a shit writer so he copied other writers and his publishers were just using his name to make money. How is that better than Madarame? Madarame watched a woman die so he could steal her work, manipulated other artists and even raised one with questionable affection but ultimately for his own gain. That's a far more interesting scenario than a dime-a-dozen Natsume.
>Did I miss something? Natsume's a shit writer so he copied other writers and his publishers were just using his name to make money. How is that better than Madarame? Madarame watched a woman die so he could steal her work, manipulated other artists and even raised one with questionable affection but ultimately for his own gain. That's a far more interesting scenario than a dime-a-dozen Natsume
That is Madarame's set up as an antagonist, not the actual content of his character. What you see is what you get, while Natsume at least has SOME layers to his shittyness.
>while Natsume at least has SOME layers to his shittyness.
I played Persona 5 Strikers twice. He doesn't. He's just a pussy who copied others. His arc is Madarame's arc but without any depth and a half-assed sympathetic backstory. It's really poor writing.
>Law+ unironically creates a world free of that which ails mankind >the way Atlus provided a downside to it was implying that if ayylmaos appear then humanity is fricked
I think Atlus just sorta fricked up and realized that Law+ is a perfect ending so they had to make up random out of nowhere bullshit to give it a downside since Chaos+ is straight up a "Frick it, let's hope and pray this won't devolve into normal Chaos"
Law+ is SMT's greatest argument for the benefits of mind control.
This argument is moronic because the villains do worse crimes than the phantom thieves
It's like batman's "hurrr if i kill that means the amount of murderer in the world doesn't change"
Yes, it's a good thing when bad people are punished for doing bad things. Bad people should be beat up, killed, or mindcontrolled. If the justice system actually worked, thats what would happen to them anyway. The Phantom Thevies did nothing wrong
It was already revealed that the whole "changing people's heart things" was something the holy grail came up with to crush independent souls. It was clearly evil and worse than killing them. It's mind rape
I guess the real question is whether you think that manipulating someone's mind is worse than just stopping them some other way. I can see the case for the mind rape for truly evil people like Shido who is effectively a psychopathic murderer. A couple of the cases are more ambiguous.
They are not. People like Shido are just like that, their personalities resisted the holy grail's attempt to enslave them because they are strongwilled. They are just also bad people
I'm a neutralgay and I don't see the PTs doing anything wrong. Criminals got caught, if not by the law, then some kids privy to their shit, and they got punished for it. The things the antagonists did wrong was getting caught.
Giving power to a select few individuals especially teenage morons to control minds is not neutralgay ideology when they're traditionally in favor of collective human free will. You're just a lawgay because all the PTs did was fuel a false god.
>because all the PTs did was fuel a false god.
pretty sure that was literally everyone else in the world EXCEPT the PTs. As evidenced by all those people trapping themselves in cages powering yaldabaoth.
Eh, Neutralgays are pro-demons plenty of times. Just using the SMTIVA example, the Bonds route is literally "lets team up with the demons."
The only time Neutralgays have been based is when they were actually "frick demons" like Yakumo and Gigahomie.
i know, "angry irish man" is Dagda. i can't think of any other entry where neutral plays out that way, but i haven't played the Devil Survivor games and i know those has multiple neutral endings too. most of the time it's been "you got the demons to frick off... for now :)"
i only remember the first tbh neutrals that are >frick off demons >we ran away then got forced to go back and make the demons frick off >only glowies get to control demons
any argument is pointless when "twisted desire" is a proven concept in universe so there's never a risk to accidentally target people who don't deserve it
There's not a single person here who says the P5 MCs are wrong who isn't baiting for easy replies, or actually played the game. The game doesn't even give much wiggle room for morally grey thoughts, the PTs are objectively, morally in the right in just about every single way.
if anything the villains are the ones trying to justify themselves, as if their plans don't involve worldwide brainwashing. and yes, villains being all 100% evil is my issue with p5, it renders hollow anytime the PT argue if what they're doing is right. >should we really change a person's mind?
yes, you're dealing with arapist that drove your friend to suicide, ruined the career of one of your party members and is threatning to expel you from school, plus the literal laws of the universe tell you he's evil and gave you the specific ability to not make him evil anymore
>and yes, villains being all 100% evil is my issue with p5,
Yeah you do sound like the kind of person who demands his antagonists to have a cop-out sympathetic backstory to justify their actions. In the real world, this isn't always the case. Sometimes an olympic gold medalist just lets his success get to his head. Sometimes an artist sees an easy way to further his career and he hasn't been caught for doing it, so he keeps going. Sometimes a gang member is just obsessed with money and doesn't care about people's feelings.
But more than that, the focus was never on these CHARACTERS. It's on the abused, the effects of the abusers, and the mob psychology of those who let them get away with it. The entire purpose of P5 avoiding shedding more light on the antagonists is to keep you from getting hyper-focused on them.
The antagonsist go from a personal slight, or a progressively bigger problem that effects more people, to the point the majority think "who cares? doesn't affect me." or "there's nothing we can do, so let's just let them get away with it."
If you have a problem with this sort of narrative then I'm sorry but you literally just didn't get it.
no, i don't want them to have a sob story. but if the game is gonna be all "what if you're doing something bad?" then it needs to give me a reason to think it can be bad, but all their targets are flat moustache twirling villains with very little to say about anything, they're mere plot device. and that is fine, but that doesn't make it interesting.
Kamoshida was great, it was entertaining to see just how deeply rotten that bastard was. depth ism't just a sob story, it's giving the character weight. you can reasonably say a lot about him, what he likes and who he is. meanwhile you get flat characters that like kaneshiro and the evil ceo i forgot the name of
>but if the game is gonna be all "what if you're doing something bad?"
It didn't, except in Strikers, which was fricking stupid. The contention in the PTs was "are we doing this for the good of the world, or because it makes us famous?" It's about their group philosophy, not their deeds or actions. >depth ism't just a sob story, it's giving the character weight
And the characters didn't need weight, because again that would distract you from the fact they are STAND-INS. They are not supposed to be isolated people who are given a lot of thought or consideration, they are crystallizations of common thought processes many people have.
I'm not sure how you managed to avoid the point so hard. Giving the characters weight like you said would actively go against everything the game is trying to do.
Kamoshida was different because he needed to be different to get the ones PERSONALLY VICTIMIZED involved enough to make a change. Afterwards, they have the power and they feel it's their right to do that same thing for the people who can't or are too afraid to defend themselves.
3 months ago
Anonymous
anon i know why the story does what it does, shit, it's a shonen anime, it's not high literature. i just didn't find it very engaging from a moral standpoint.
weight is just making them memorable and interesting, if a character is so interesting it distracts you from the themes of the story what the frick are you even writing?
3 months ago
Anonymous
>if a character is so interesting it distracts you from the themes of the story what the frick are you even writing?
Clearly if the character is not as important as his situation and the people involved, the writing is then focused on the situation and the people involved?
If you're reading a book, and a character doesn't have much description or character, that doesn't make it bad writing, it means the character is not very important.
If a villain of one chapter gets massive infodump paragraphs for what amounts to a very small piece of a larger narrative, that's unnecessary and wordy.
3 months ago
Anonymous
obviously, but these characters and their palace shaped by their desires and perception of reality are core parts of the story. you spend in game hours on their plots and their dungeons so yeah, not being able to remember the name of half of them is a flaw.
and yes, in p5 even vanilla the PT do stop to wonder if what they're doing is right, quite often too
>Herp derp the PTs are in the wrong for stopping criminals who are mentally fricked enough to develop a palace and also the law can't do anything to stop them. >Herp derp Maruki is in the right for brainraping literally everyone to fit his own desires and values.
I think Persona 5 might just be too smart for you guys.
All the discourse around the Phantom Thieves and how people want to be them or think they should really exist is its own special hell of brainrot that completely missed the point of everything. It's that meme of the arrow flying over the guy's head as he focuses on missing the point. It also doesn't help that at the long end of the ride, Yabbadabba intentionally invoked a lot of this shit and manipulated every step to his goals, so in the end the PTs were never fixing things that weren't to his advantage anyway.
In ye olde days, if a King killed us for having a poor crop thanks to an extended winter, we rebelled and killed the King.
Now, apparently, we says it's unlawful to rebel against the King and it's wrong to go against his rule no matter how awful.
Thanks for making me sad, Ganker.
honestly a big thing with this stuff is the Japanese values shit that haunts this game's narrative. you do not disrespect someone of authority or higher status than you, and you don't try to stick out from the crowd in a way that could be considered socially disruptive. the entire culture is functionally ingrained like this, more than any wagecuck shit you see in the west, which is why the salaryman stereotype that works to his death is hardly a stereotype.
I can imagine P5 was actually rather impactful in its home nation because the entire story is sticking it to the bastards that would be completely untouchable in their society, but now you just have dumbasses on both sides of the isle in western discussion about it
"We" rebelled and killed the king?
No, his power-hungry lords rebelled against the king, rallying us to be their foot soldiers by playing into our desires for better conditions by promising us better lives once the current king is deposed.
Which may or may not actually happen, but what are you, as an individual, going to do about it?
>"We" rebelled and killed the king?
yeah, human beings. You are human, right? >Which may or may not actually happen, but what are you, as an individual, going to do about it?
So you're just gunna keep taking it laying down and defend the King by telling any rebels they're just as bad for wanting a better life?
>So you're just gunna keep taking it laying down and defend the King by telling any rebels they're just as bad for wanting a better life?
I mean, you are. Why else would you be shitposting on Ganker instead of going and killing your corrupt king?
His better point was >I was abused and nearly beaten to death as a child and I just want to help kids that have to suffer like I do, but when I change peoples minds to do that, you say that's evil, while you only change people's minds if it's convenient to you or pertains to you
The problem isn't even that you can't make an argument against his methods or the ways he acts, it's that the game somewhat introduces the idea that what the phantom thieves are doing isn't great but only pays lip service to the idea and doesn't really further investigate the idea. And they don't really engage those arguments, either. It's like how they don't thoroughly engage Maruki's, except there they at least acknowledge that they're acting in self interest and are being selfish.
However, it's not as bad as the Adachi / Investigation team "argument".
>However, it's not as bad as the Adachi / Investigation team "argument".
"You're wrong because you're a friendless loser" remains one of the most mind-boggling moronic counter-arguments I had to sit through. I can try and give it a pass because they are inarticulate, inexperienced teenagers who don't know how to shed light on the very obvious flaws, but holy frick.
I don't like Persona writing because it's just good guys vs bad guys. The Phantom Thieves are pussy homosexuals that don't even kill for their ideology.
I don't like Persona writing because it's just good guys vs bad guys. The Phantom Thieves are pussy homosexuals that don't even kill for their ideology.
no, i don't want them to have a sob story. but if the game is gonna be all "what if you're doing something bad?" then it needs to give me a reason to think it can be bad, but all their targets are flat moustache twirling villains with very little to say about anything, they're mere plot device. and that is fine, but that doesn't make it interesting.
Kamoshida was great, it was entertaining to see just how deeply rotten that bastard was. depth ism't just a sob story, it's giving the character weight. you can reasonably say a lot about him, what he likes and who he is. meanwhile you get flat characters that like kaneshiro and the evil ceo i forgot the name of
Maybe the game is just 2deep4/v/.
honestly a big thing with this stuff is the Japanese values shit that haunts this game's narrative. you do not disrespect someone of authority or higher status than you, and you don't try to stick out from the crowd in a way that could be considered socially disruptive. the entire culture is functionally ingrained like this, more than any wagecuck shit you see in the west, which is why the salaryman stereotype that works to his death is hardly a stereotype.
I can imagine P5 was actually rather impactful in its home nation because the entire story is sticking it to the bastards that would be completely untouchable in their society, but now you just have dumbasses on both sides of the isle in western discussion about it
Yeah a lot of P5 is based on the japanese mentality of not "disrupting the peace". The whole rebellion theme and pointing out the flaws in japanese justice systems and creating scenarios where vigilantes are necessary to save people was throwing light on the populace's inability to stand up for themselves.
>The writing isn't just "good guys vs bad guys", that's the vehicle that's used to explore the themes
The themes are boring "rebel against unjust authority" but that's probably just because I'm not Japanese so I can't relate
>The themes are boring
I think people like you who can't engage their brain at all are boring. Even worse if you demand others stop thinking as well, that makes you annoying and stupid.
What an absurd absolutist statement. Because he doesn't enjoy one literary theme that a work decided to focus on, all of a sudden he can't appreciate or enjoy any sort of literary work and is a functional troglodyte?
>Because he doesn't enjoy one literary theme
He doesn't even know what the literary theme because he doesn't care to unless the main characters kill people.
3 months ago
Anonymous
Because the themes are self evident to anyone from the west that paid attention in school. The history of rebellion, reformation, and change in society has always been violent so of course Persona 5's limp wristed presentation of those themes would appear to be interesting to anyone without a functioning brain >People in power are corrupt so let's change their hearts and have them submit to a higher authority which is corrupt and incompetent themselves for allowing these things to happen
It's a shit theme nothing was accomplished. Even fricking shit like the Gundam series understands that.
3 months ago
Anonymous
The west has a frickload of narratives about rebellion though.
3 months ago
Anonymous
>The history of rebellion, reformation, and change in society has always been violent
The point of Persona 5 is that people have become far more mundane, less violent and easy to manipulate.
3 months ago
Anonymous
Indeed, and the phantom thieves, through their self righteous, self serving and ultimately violent acts are the rebels, alongside their targets, who are all also violent and self serving rebels in their own way.
3 months ago
Anonymous
are you fricking moronic?
3 months ago
Anonymous
Are you? The phantom thieves literally kill the god of control and reinstate individuality. Their earlier targets were people that had managed to self actualize and divorce themselves from the prison of society, they straight up tell you that via narration in the end of mementos.
3 months ago
Anonymous
Yeah? So why haven't you done anything to rebel against the current abusive tyrants?
3 months ago
Anonymous
Because I have yet to be abused
3 months ago
Anonymous
So it's fine to ignore the people who are? Welcome to Persona 5. Enjoy your stay.
3 months ago
Anonymous
That's what the PTs are doing to a large extend, though. That's a massive character flaw for them. For the largest part of the game they're only going after targets that would give them more fame or directly affect them in some way (mementos targets of dubious canon status notwithstanding).
Even Akira Konoe talks about that in the OP's pic.
3 months ago
Anonymous
>That's what the PTs are doing to a large extend, though
huh? They literally listen to the cries of the abused and then go after the people they are capable of stopping (who have palaces) and the law can't crack down on. >For the largest part of the game they're only going after targets that would give them more fame
"a large part" being like 1-2 dungeons and they correct their group philosophy. >Even Akira Konoe talks about that in the OP's pic.
Ah, you're a Strikers defender. No wonder. Konoe just threw pointless criticisms at the PTs that never stuck because they're inaccurate or misdirections like "well you guys target criminals, so I should be able to control everyone in the world". False equivalence at its finest. That's why Konoe is an antagonist and not the good guy.
3 months ago
Anonymous
>So it's fine to ignore the people who are?
Nobody actually gives a shit about what's outside their immediate view not even Atlus given that every Persona game is centered around Japan.
>Stupid fricking weeb
Persona 5's writing is milquetoast to any western consumer because we already have a history of revolution it's obvious to us but not to an eastern consumer.
>it's obvious
Something being obvious doesn't mean you understand it, or should avoid discussing, thinking about it, or looking at it from different angles. That's just ignorance and that's how corporate israelites take control of you.
Philosophers don't boldly tell the world of shit nobody has ever considered. They break down the obvious and explore it through a looking glass. That's all philosophy is - looking at the "obvious".
3 months ago
Anonymous
Are you being facetious or are you seriously comparing Persona 5 of all things with philosophical quandaries?
3 months ago
Anonymous
For some reason I knew you would have a problem with an example and get upset about it instead of actually using the example to understand my point.
>Persona writing because it's just good guys vs bad guys
It's mostly 4 and 5 that fall into explicit villains that happen to be controlled by gods, even the first two games weren't so weird about it. But you're also fricked up if you think murdering someone to stop them is the primary solution.
Yes. Technically not heroes in the traditional sense, and Yab was pushing them along their path the entire time in his rigged game to take over the world, but they do save lives and stop some genuinely horrific people or prevent some more troubled folks from making terrible decisions. They're not supposed to be infallibly good, they even ruminate on that with each other and think they shouldn't have the right to the power they wield as an absolute potential for control over everything that they COULD have if they wanted, but the story pits them against such absolute shitlords or people that need fixing that they just slot into heroes anyway.
>Because the themes are self evident to anyone from the west that paid attention in school.
That's a bold, sweeping and dismissive statement and I'm not sure you realize just how ignorant and close-minded you sound. >Stop making stories about this because *I* think it's obvious and don't want to think very hard about it.
christ almighty, no wonder nobody respects the west.
>That's a bold, sweeping and dismissive statement and I'm not sure you realize just how ignorant and close-minded you sound.
what a hilarious statement given this follow up >christ almighty, no wonder nobody respects the west.
>That's a bold, sweeping and dismissive statement and I'm not sure you realize just how ignorant and close-minded you sound.
I'm not close minded I just have little tolerance for people that lack critical thinking. The presentation of these themes should be obvious and self evident to anyone in the west but not the east because they do no promote a culture of individualism which is why western Persona fans are commonly told that they're moronic because they think Persona is unique in its messages when Western society is already built around what the ideals the games have presented. It's the same reason why people call superhero movies capeshit.
>The history of rebellion, reformation, and change in society has always been violent
The point of Persona 5 is that people have become far more mundane, less violent and easy to manipulate.
The point of Persona 5 is to tell the Japanese that they lack individuality which is the biggest reason for the stagnation of their nation.
>The point of Persona 5 is to tell the Japanese that they lack individuality which is the biggest reason for the stagnation of their nation.
That's an over-arching theme of the Persona series - the self and the relation to the community. But the point of Persona 5 specifically is to tell people to be more willing to fight back against oppressors.
>one traumatized guy wants to brainwash everyone into happiness and lawfulness >but he also trusts a manipulative AI too much, drives a man to suicide, knowingly has a child manipulated for a Jail while simply not even caring for the individual details, is heavily driven by vengeance and spite for what had happened to himself, and wants to push his views onto everyone in the world overall without any choice in the matter because his trauma matters more than anything else >"oh but when i do it, i'm the bad guy?"
yes, yes you absolute lunkhead of a my hero wannabe. not a single thing that happens to you can justify fricking with everyone else globally because you don't want it to happen to others as a nuclear solution. that'd be like if Shinji from Evangelion was given that opportunity to create a new world and he made his own escapist paradise where everyone would be "fixed" -- he didn't, because even HE knew he didn't have that right.
The end justifies the means is his philosophy in regards to that, the same as what the phantom thieves belief in regards to their violent and incredibly invasive acts of brainwashing and vigilantism.
and pray tell what do the Phantom Thieves do in their acts of going into the Metaverse to stop select targets, and what do they do outside of that, to be considered "violent" besides fighting Shadows
During their first change of heart they're literally threatening to kill Kamoshida unless his shadow changes it's mind. They're threatening death upon him if he should not brainwash himself.
The original game literally ends with PT realizing they were being puppeteered by Yaldy and that change of hearts was his bullshit, social links are the true way to change the world. Indeed Joker is saved by his social links and is only able to defeat Yaldy because of them.
It's Royal and Strikers that tries to spin this narrative of good change of heart vs bad, but it's flimsy because the original game is literally not written around it.
No, him forcefully changing people because he believes their dreams wouldn't make them happy or because their dreams might be clashing with another persons desires or wants is a good example of it.
That's honest to god the real crux of the issue - he's not a literally omnipotent being in control of an infinite number of realities, which he would need to craft literally everyone's perfect realities.
feels like the Strikers writing and the Royal writing both tried to have the "anti-villain that makes the thieves question themselves" moment by pure coincidence, except Royal actually did it competently and Strikers made it a farce
Neither did it competently, you're just a fanboy. The moment both games started discussing free will they both fell apart, writing-wise. Persona 5 writing is bad. But both are good games for other things they did right.
No, Persona 5 Royal was very competently written inside and out. The character writing is weak, but the theming and exploration of the core message is very well done. What did you have a problem with specifically?
I can tell you don't read books, because P5 Royal's story and the writing involved in it was borderline insulting. It's obvious the writers had no clue of the philosophical concepts and literature they discussed in the games. The way they handle the discussion related to free will is very naive and childish. Not good writing.
And of course the hypocrisy related to the Phantom Thieves brainwashing people and then denying its immorality is bullshit. And questionable turn of events, like Hifumi never taking full responsibility of her cheating, are constant.
It's badly written. Just because a kid is entertained with their brains turned off doesn't mean something is good. P5 Royal and Strikers are the same in this regard.
>questionable turn of events, like Hifumi never taking full responsibility of her cheating, are constant.
Here's the thing: She's a teenager, so she's a pure soul that can't do no wrong.
While Shido is irredeemable because evil, traitorous murderer, Akechi is a smoll bean in spite of evil traitorous murderer, because teenager I'm not just shitposting, the game tries desperately to frame him as a tragic character who could've redeemed himself, somehow
3 months ago
Anonymous
After Hifumi's mother stops arranging her matches, iirc Hifumi's only aftermath reaction is: "For the first time, I lost a match... I like challenge."
And Joker just nods along. WHAT THE FRICK! At least go apologize to the players you fricked over.
>I can tell you don't read books
I do read books, just finished the count of monte criso, house of leaves and the eye of the world recently. >because P5 Royal's story and the writing involved in it was borderline insulting.
It's not, it's done pretty well. > It's obvious the writers had no clue of the philosophical concepts and literature they discussed in the games.
It doesn't discuss any literature in the games, it addresses points and scenarios exactly as they are presented in a very clear format. >The way they handle the discussion related to free will is very naive and childish.
It's a game aimed at teenagers primarily, and you haven't told me why you think it's naive and childish to begin with. You're slinging criticisms with nothing to base them on. That's poor writing on your part. >And of course the hypocrisy related to the Phantom Thieves brainwashing people
This is how I know you didn't play Persona 5. There is no brainwashing involved. The treasure is a trap designed to hyper-focus the subconscious into disregarding the moral repercussions of their actions. The PTs remove this and the subconscious returns to normal. They cannot target or alter anyone's psyche unless they have a treasure - which is a mental cancer that needs to be removed.
You keep repeating this "they are brainwashing" nonsense but that argument is only held up by misinformation, lies or ignorance on your part.
3 months ago
Anonymous
>it doesn't discuss any literature in the games
It doesn't need to discuss the literature, but if you are a good writer and discuss philosophical themes, you need to understand those philosophical themes and discussions. And P5 Royal shows its writers do not.
>It's a game aimed at teenagers
Yes, but it's misleading teenagers. The structure of the story in general is built around a simple palace infiltration loop.
And no, you don't read books. And no, you don't understand what the Metaverse (stupid name btw, but this is the fault of the localizers) is. The Phantom Thieves manipulate the actions of other individuals and you can't deny this with your semantics.
It's pretty easy to tell someone reads books when they act like they are an objectively higher form of intelligence than any other lol. Fricking anyone can get anything published.
3 months ago
Anonymous
i remember having a local author show up for my creative writing class and it was just a girl who wrote what was essentially a pirates of the carribbean fanfic
3 months ago
Anonymous
>local woman writes "tunnels of time" series >re-releases them a few years ago but there was a clear effort to make it sound like that these were brand new books and not a second run of publishing her 20 year old books
i was so confused when i saw an article about a NEW tunnels of time book, and I looked over at the bookshelf and saw a 15 year old copy of said book, and it wasn't even the newest in the series
3 months ago
Anonymous
Meant "doesn't read books". There are more shit books than good.
i remember having a local author show up for my creative writing class and it was just a girl who wrote what was essentially a pirates of the carribbean fanfic
Yeah it's honestly hard to find good fantasy novels in particular. Reading one series right now, The Ruin of Kings followed up by The Name of All Things and the dialogue is almost entire marvel equips and the author abuses the frick out of paragraph breaks for emphasis to the point it becomes monotonous.
competently in the sense that Maruki is actually sympathetic, not that he was doing a good thing, versus Konoe being a tremendously hypocritical and self-important jackass
>Strikers made it a farce
Strikers was a farce inside and out. It was a lower quality carbon copy of the original story. Even the artist arc was 1:1 Natsume : Madarame except even shittier.
Counterpoint: Strikers introduced two party members that were far better than any from the main game and Akira Konoe AND Ichinose managed to be more interesting characters than the extremely bland politician caricature.
Hard agree with new StrikerS party members being by far the best ones of any version of P5.
Hard disagree on villain, Shido is perfect secondary villain for P5 that perfectly embodies the idea of the villains being a symptom of the cancer lurking beneath society. By comparison, autist and shittier Maruki are trash.
>Counterpoint: Strikers introduced two party members that were far better than any from the main game
Sophie/a was just Aigis but done worse.
Zenkichi was alright but like all Persona 4/5 characters, gets little to no development outside of his specific arc which didn't amount to much. He's at least more appealing than the rest of the P5 cast though, being a single dad is far more interesting than the rest of the bunch.
Also Akira Konoe was a shit, bland frickin character and Ichinose was a dipshit. I'm not gunna bother comparing them as characters to P5's counterparts because the antagonists in P5 weren't meant to be more than what they are presented as, the focus wasn't on that.
I like Sophie more than Aigis. I wish she (and Zenkichi) were in the base game, at least for the theming having her opposite Yaldabaoth her mythological son.
I love this theme about justice. Tales of Vesperia did it well and Persona 5 causes threads like these.
"The law is the tool of whoever happens to hold all the chips."
Not really, he was right to fight against criminals the law can't touch. That's rebellion in its purest form, and the responsibility of the people if the law can't do anything about it. Only israelites who benefit from keeping people manipulated and shackled would argue against it.
So, it's okay for everyone to kill whoever they want if they think they are doing the right thing?
Wow, you really need to move to africa to see how this shit works
>So, it's okay for everyone to kill whoever they want if they think they are doing the right thing?
No of course not, which is why this scene in particular was such a turning point for Yuri. And why he didn't shit on her for doing it.
He was performing a "necessary evil" and was fully willing to accept the consequences of his actions should they come to him. They didn't, because in the end his actions were objectively right and had he not killed the evil antagonists, they would have continued to perform their evil actions unabated.
It's a re-occuring thing throughout the game that whenever Yuri kills someone, Flynn is getting closer. >Ragou
Flynn is powerless. >Cumore
Flynn arrives right after the murder. >Alexei
Flynn is fighting along side Yuri, Alexei gets crushed by the stone, a thematic symbol that he is crushed under the weight of his own actions. Flynn has established himself as a better law enforcer by this point.
The law is fixed, Yuri's actions are no longer necessary.
>He was performing a "necessary evil"
Any psycho can think like that
Any good natured person can think like that
Again, law punishes vigilantism very harshly not because someone thinks he's above law and rulers, but because it leads to anarchy and country being destroyed >bbbbut it's okay only for me to kill whoever I don't like, anyone else should obey law, they are fricking ship
This is called being fricking hypocrite
3 months ago
Anonymous
>Any psycho can think like that
But we, as the viewers, have the power to judge that for ourselves and you'd have to be insane to think Yuri did anything wrong.
it's okay only for me to kill whoever I don't like,
if "whoever I don't like" are actual political criminals who feed kids to monsters for fun, then yeah, if the law isn't going to do something about it, someone should.
You seem like the very gullible type.
>Tales of Vesperia did it well
The frick it did.
Theres a lot of good in Vesperia but they butchered Yuris murder activism really hard
>YURI MAYBE ITS NOT RIGHT TO MURDER ANYONE YOU LIKE >lmao yea it is >OKAY YOU ARE RIGHT AND PERFECT AS ALWAYS
The game desperately needed Yuri to fail at something and not just act like a 12 year olds definition of a cool character
I liked how his actions almost bought him his death and only at that point he realized that in someone's else eyes his action and even himself might have deserved same punishment as he enacted.
Sounds like you just hate Yuri so you come up with childish, flimsy reasons to hate him. He's a good character with a solid reasoning behind his actions.
He kills unrepentant criminals that won't suffer consequences if he doesn't step in right now, or if he just ignores it, there will be far more casualties until they finally face justice.
Anon if they never brought attention to it, ironacally it would be fine.
BUT they beat your head over and over again how its supposed to be a moronic battle of ideology with him and Flynn.
But then its not because fricking everyone just jacks Yuri off like they do all game.
Remember the big reveal where the party finds out hes been capping people? >wow Yuri thats wrong, but whatever lol youre so great
The entire clash of ideals comes off as a fricking joke since Yuri is 110% justified in everything like everything Yuri does. Because Yuris a character for brainlets who cant handle actual challenges to themselves and he comes off as a fricking power fantasy self insert character.
>everyone just jacks Yuri off like they do all game.
They don't, that's again your bias. You hate him, and any compliment paid to Yuri is "jacking him off". You're so incomprehensibly asspained by this guy. >>wow Yuri thats wrong, but whatever lol youre so great
They don't say that. They're shocked and avoid bringing it up because it's tangential to their goals at the time.
Yuri is justified until he is no longer necessary, the point is his actions aren't a perfect cure-all solution and when taken to the extreme (like Duke) they cause more harm than good. He was a bandaid fix until Flynn could establish himself.
I still can't believe this game is unironically good from a gameplay standpoint. The story isn't AS horrid as the originals (even though the villains are blatant repeats), the music is arguably better, the main cast feels less insufferable, what the frick happened?
Well you see it's very simple
P5=bad
Thus creates the expectation that "anything involving p5=potential to be bad"
Granted, it was the Musou guys, but even they have made some slop under that genre. If you ask me, Strikers is how Persona should be, and if it were a bit more fleshed out for combat, it would be considered peak character action. It's so fricking close. I'm just upset because I despise P5 so much.
Very few Koei Tecmo games are actually shit, they're just underwhelming or get poor decisions made. Like Warriors All-Stars or Fire Emblem Three Hopes.
I really don't get people constantly jerking off musou spinoffs as if the gameplay is so much better than DW or SW. It's no better, it even has the same annoying shield thing DW8 had except you have to spam spells to get rid of it. >the main cast feels less insufferable
They're even more insufferable because of the spinoff flanderization that always happens, the frick are you talking about.
Well you see it's very simple
P5=bad
Thus creates the expectation that "anything involving p5=potential to be bad"
Granted, it was the Musou guys, but even they have made some slop under that genre. If you ask me, Strikers is how Persona should be, and if it were a bit more fleshed out for combat, it would be considered peak character action. It's so fricking close. I'm just upset because I despise P5 so much.
I didn't mention base p5 anywhere in that post. I was adressing you thinking the gameplay is "unironically good" when it's typical koei musoushit. No amount of changes would make it come close to being as good as a real action game, or even sengoku basara.
If you have to ask that, look for yourself. All of P5 is drawn out, with bad, unfulfilling character dialogue, unlikable characters, mary sue writing, bad pay offs, bad character depth, an infantile understanding of moral issues, and so on. Anyone who praises it is exactly the same person who puts Automata on a pedastal. It's not our fault you can't think for yourself and haven't developed your brain. The fact that P5 Royal is even worse is truly impressive, I would take my hat off if I had one. It's genuinely astounding how they made the story even worse because of that trick ending.
I find it really funny that the Phantom Thieves have this edgy criminal aesthetic full of historical and mythological lawbreakers when their plan to solve bad things happening is exactly the same as Law’s brainwashing schemes in like three previous SMT games. They’re maybe the most Law-aligned protags in any SMT or Persona game.
That's what makes them neutral by SMT standards, ironically. They follow Chaos to do what they feel they need to do, yet do it to the idea of the proper Law that should be punishing those as they would be had society not been apathetic, and then rescind their power and prevent a higher god from taking control.
>it doesn't discuss any literature in the games
It doesn't need to discuss the literature, but if you are a good writer and discuss philosophical themes, you need to understand those philosophical themes and discussions. And P5 Royal shows its writers do not.
>It's a game aimed at teenagers
Yes, but it's misleading teenagers. The structure of the story in general is built around a simple palace infiltration loop.
And no, you don't read books. And no, you don't understand what the Metaverse (stupid name btw, but this is the fault of the localizers) is. The Phantom Thieves manipulate the actions of other individuals and you can't deny this with your semantics.
>Yes, but it's misleading teenagers.
It's not misleading unless you're moronic, like you. >And no, you don't read books.
If your argument really rests on whether I read books or not, you do not have an argument.
I think you're just a troll and I'm ashamed at myself for falling for such moronic bait, so I'm gunna retreat now. Feel free to throw up a victory post.
>the pts don't brainwash.
Oh they just forcibly incept people's unconscious minds and insert new information and remove old aspects pertaining to it!
No brainwashing here, no sire!
the phantom thieves never mind controlled anyone. they only make a person realize their distorted desires. it up ultimately up to the palace owner to change their ways. this is stressed many times. in fact in persona 5 all the people who changed their hearts ended up not learning much since they are so much of homosexuals that they would rather live in a prison of their own making instead of truly acknowledging their mistakes and seeking forgiveness.
no wonder you homosexuals concentrate solely on coomer wifu posting when it comes to these games.
you Black folk are literally unironically too smooth brianed to understand the depths of persona.
carry on seeing it as you wish.
3 months ago
Anonymous
That LITERALLY happens man. It LITERALLY happens. Ann LITERALLY threatens to murder him if he doesn't change his conscious personality and repents.
3 months ago
Anonymous
>trying to brainwash people into believing it's wrong to be angry at child rapists
this is illegal.
3 months ago
Anonymous
yes, so is vigilantism, and for many a great reason at that. Unless you're of the belief that the government should brainwash you for wrongthink.
3 months ago
Anonymous
you think in black and white
the fact you think the law is always objectively, morally correct and infallible alone makes you moronic.
3 months ago
Anonymous
being a pedo homosexual is morally wrong. if you think theres a black n white are in burning such abomination then it makes sense why persona games would make you homosexuals seethe.
3 months ago
Anonymous
People who praise this game's writing squirm like worms in front of this post.
3 months ago
Anonymous
based ann
dont forget how she wanted him to repent because that's longer suffering than sweet release of death
3 months ago
Anonymous
bro you can't just make a rapist repent, that's MANIPULATION
3 months ago
Anonymous
ann is hot
Im on her side
3 months ago
Anonymous
bro just rid people of their free will and individuality, it's totally cool and correct (except P5 literally disagrees half the time)
3 months ago
Anonymous
bro you can't just punish criminals wat the frick??? that's so MEAN
3 months ago
Anonymous
so true, cut4Akechi, he innocent, it was all shido's fault
3 months ago
Anonymous
no they're criminals moron
3 months ago
Anonymous
>akechi gets ressurected thanks to his popularity
thieves were right,will of others, especially masses, should be ignored
3 months ago
Anonymous
he got resurrected specifically due to fujoshi wanting joker to frick him, so he was Maruki's actualization of Jokers' perfect reality.
3 months ago
Anonymous
bro you can't just make everyone happy,
that's MANIPULATION
t. Phantom Thieves
3 months ago
Anonymous
freedom from choice is not freedom from consequences.
3 months ago
Anonymous
There's no freedom.
3 months ago
Anonymous
seethe homosexual. continue to blame the world for you being such a disgusting abomination all you.
3 months ago
Anonymous
There's this thing called science. Try it. Or don't, it'd probably go over your head anyway.
3 months ago
Anonymous
you are just going to keep proving how much of a homosexual you are?
BURN homosexual.
3 months ago
Anonymous
You sound very mentally stable. A true rational stoic, you. Surely a man admired far and wide.
3 months ago
Anonymous
I dont give a frick what you label me. if I had a chance I would burn pedo homosexuals on the spot. no second thoughts.
may God judge me for my sins when I depart from this life. If Im going to hell I would take you pedo homosexuals with me. no second thoughts.
3 months ago
Anonymous
I only like adults. You need to calm down a bit.
3 months ago
Anonymous
I think this exposes the problem with the PT and the game tries to touch on it but of course it falls flatter than a body hitting water.
We can agree that child rapists should be stoned to death, or whatever you deem similar. But the problem is that the game, retroactively, frames the brainwashing of Kamoshida as a bad thing because it tries to say "hey you can't just do whatever you want with such a power, it's kinda fricked". If you look at Kamoshida in a vaccuum as a lone incident: who the frick cares? He's a piece of shit. He deserved it, most would say. But then the writing dictates that the PT have to make their presence known in order to properly infiltrate palaces, and it becomes this weird glorification of what they're doing as "justice" even though it's just brainwashing. So it comes down to the question: is brainwashing evil people morally good? It's almost like a question you wouldn't even bother answering, because it feels ridiculous. Would you kill a child predator? A good bit of people would. But it differs from each kind of person you encounter. If I recall, for Kawakami's, she had someome blackmailing her. So for that example: would you kill someone blackmailing you? Probably not. Your mileage may vary. But under the guise of "justice", they brainwash them, and it undermines the whole issue of "injustice" the game has, because apparently the only way you can beat injustice is using super natural powers or killing a god who somehow has all the negativity in him. I guess. It's a very shitty message.
So now we ask: how can we fix the PT? And the answer is: you probably can't. There's some concepts that just aren't good. The idea of a modern day Robin Hood isn't bad, but when all your answers to solving the issues of others in game is to fricking brainwash your problems away, it's so stupid. I'm not saying that having extensive dialogues with them therapy-ing the villains and other enemies would be better, but it would be a better attempt.
3 months ago
Anonymous
I'm the one calling P5 writing bad and I wouldn't bother writing messages as long as yours to prove it to strangers but I want to shake your hand because you understand writing.
3 months ago
Anonymous
You're a moron who couldn't even the understand the basic ass story of P5, m8. Did you miss the bit where the Phantom Thieves are working for a malevolent entity bent on eradicating mankind? The game is very explicit that the problem is not the individual criminals, but a society that turns a blind eye to them, that refuses to act because it's not Japanese. All the parents knew Kamoshida was abusing children mentally, physically, sexually and none of them did anything. The crazy thing is, Kamoshida is based on a real scandal that happened in reality. Or maybe it's not so crazy, it happens all the damn time. Morgana literally spouts the message of the game after the final battle, you don't need super powers to change the world, people can change their reality every day by reaching out to other people instead of letting the sloth of society dictate their life.
3 months ago
Anonymous
>I think this exposes the problem with the PT
that they punish criminals?
My arguments do not rest on that claim and I can change it to something else if you'd prefer. What is important is that when somebody calls P5 writing good, I can only assume they're clueless when it comes to writing. The game is still entertaining, but just admit it's about the atmosphere, the music and leveling up, not about writing. The writing is pretty stupid.
Depending on part in story of P5/R party does admit it. They often say they are doing 'their' [idea of] justice. Rejecting mementos will or Maruki is them putting their values over anyone's else.
To certain degree, by rules of series, that's MC's/wild card's privilege.
This is right. They even say so in Royal. "I'm sure many would be happy under Maruki's rule" they admit, but they value their freedom far above security.
Specifically, they value THEIR freedom, and the freedom of likeminded individuals, above everyone else's security and happiness. There could be 3 billion people on the planet living objectively better, happier, kinder lives due to Maruki and they would still believe themselves right for destroying it under the assumption that there are people who want to be like them.
3 months ago
Anonymous
and they are right one way or another
maruki's reality is a sham
3 months ago
Anonymous
Because he hasn't fully integrated with the world yet or awakened his true persona. The game outright tells you that Maruki isn't at full power.
3 months ago
Anonymous
how is that supposed to make things better?
he would completely rob people of self awareness on top of turning the entire world into his messiah doll house
3 months ago
Anonymous
He would rewrite whole personalities and lifes of people. Remove memories of being abused by boyfriend and overwriting boyfriend personality. Getting rid of person's life of trying and changing his hobbies. Another part- he would break people apart, it's implied if thieves stayed in perfect world they would lose their connection as rewriting past destroyed reason for them meeting.
We saw that Maruki's idea of paradise was Eden like. Perhaps final destination was getting rid people of desires as that would've been easier to manage, at which point it's not that different from mementos prison.
One last point, by his own metrics Maruki deserved to be 'saved' and 'healed'. Can you really believe in such person being in charge?
3 months ago
Anonymous
The better example was the dude who loved piano but sucked ass at it so Maruki wouldnt let him play it because "it was a waste of time"
3 months ago
Anonymous
the test segment inside his palace was really showing his garbage mindset, but people completely ignore it for some reason
Scroll up and I gave many examples. I won't write a whole essay, although one could.
The writing is good, you think they brainwash people, the problem is you for misunderstanding.
They brainwash people by influencing their subconscious in the Metaverse, yes, strictly in this sense. "Brainwashing" is not the best term because it can imply more, but it is mental manipulation.
Depending on part in story of P5/R party does admit it. They often say they are doing 'their' [idea of] justice. Rejecting mementos will or Maruki is them putting their values over anyone's else.
To certain degree, by rules of series, that's MC's/wild card's privilege.
Because they should have killed them instead. I'm not talking about the literal who's in Mementos, but rather all the main palace targets who were complicit in destroying the livelihoods of others if not outright murder.
Persona 4 sucks because all of the "problems" the Investigation Team's members have are bullshit. >boo hoo I'm a rich little boy stuck out in the boondocks >I'm going to INHERIT the FAMILY BUSINESS?! I DON'T WANT THAT >nobody thinks I'm attractive (because I look and act like a dyke) >what the frick even am I? lol >I literally cannot separate my workself from my private life and this is somehow other people's fault >am I gay? >am I trans?
Well these are relatively grounded problems teenagers deal with, just with supernatural resolutions. Whether or not that's a good thing is subjective, but these are meant to be relatable to the youth without going full rebellious moron.
>Well these are relatively grounded problems teenagers deal with
Which would be fine if they weren't treated like they're the end of the world. I can't take them or the game seriously when the "best friend bro" character is literally just a spoiled brat.
>Which would be fine if they weren't treated like they're the end of the world.
Teens tend to worry about themselves first. And falling prey to your insecurities in this case is an end of the world scenario, which isn't too different from mainline where the collective imaginations of humanity keep causing the apocalypse.
You know maybe if a game still has a bunch of people criticizing it's writing nearly a decade after it's release, the writing is actually just flawed and it's not some misunderstood masterpiece.
Ah yes, all the midwits on Ganker with no free will who just regurgitate what they read online as fact are the authority and their sheer number should tell you what bad writing really is.
There's no winning. It's the exact same argument going in circles for almost 400 posts now. The baitposters aren't learning anything, they just repeat the exact same misinformation and lies nonstop and now the tales of vesperia yuri hating shitposter is here too.
i love how persona spinoffs obviously get their writing from online forums its like every major complaint people make about persona stories online gets memed into the next game as some villains epic monologue
The only thing that matters is consent, Nyarlathotep! Kamoshida used blackmail, which sounds like Black Male, which is pozzed and gay, whereas I sought out my statutory rapist willingly!
It's over. Time for an all out attack!!
*RAPES YOU*
He doesn't because the Phantom Thieves never claim it's wrong for others to change people's hearts but okay when they do it, they just disagree with the reasons for other people changing hearts when they fight someone else who did it.
he does, but he's wrong
you must be over 17 to post here
Adults are evil
That was the most moronic fricking shit in history.
PTs target unrepentant CRIMINALS. This guy and Maruki target literally everyone.
Zenkichi was the only good thing to come out of this poorly written trite.
>if you use cheat engine in single player games you should be brainwashed
Oh come on, gay
The fact he had a treasure developing meant if left alone he would have developed a treasure. It's not like the PTs can just change anyone they want, they are only able to change the minds of people who have an obsessive fixation that is ruining them.
The PTs do shit because the law wont. If the law wont protect its people, someone has to.
Now try and tell me it's okay for a tyrant to manipulate and abuse their people because "it's the law". Go on.
imagine actually believing the phantom thieves had a point when even the first game calls them out for being hypocrites, also you need to be 18 to post in here.
>it's okay for a tyrant to manipulate and abuse their people because "it's the law". Go on.
Yes, it is. Obey or die.
He was cheating in a competition that’s against da rules
He was going to become much, much worse and probably start shooting real guns. The PTs actions are basically a therapy session.
you dont know that for sure
laws come into play after the fact not based on suppositions about the future
>you dont know that for sure
He had a treasure. It's a guarantee. The only one it didn't work on was Mishima, and they still wound up talking to his subconscious which helped him throw away the treasure on his own.
And sleeping with underage is against law, but pt were okay with letting that slide as long as they got something in return
so is rape and what they do by changing people's hearts without their consent IS rape
Yes.
It wasn’t single player tho, hence why the you had to consult with the kid who had figured out a way to beat him.
can't be judge jury and executioner that's now how justice works
unless they are jokers friends, in which case is okay to be a homicidal maniac that never pays for his crimes including orphaning one of your other friends
when the bloody frick did anyone in the game ever forgive akechi? And no, trying to convince him not to kill himself is not forgiveness. Neither is teaming up with him against a bigger bad.
everybody during royal and all the spin offs specially joker
Nobody ever thinks fondly about Akechi for a moment and they shit on him while he's in the group in the Maruki segment.
Didn't female teacher avoided being exposed as pedophile who broke law, just because she promised to let Joker skip a school, and told him how he's mature for his age?
Felt like a way bigger crime than just cheating in video games
I mean, this double standard already exists in reality. You'll see female teachers get a proverbial slap on the wrist for sleeping with a male student, or even successfully getting child support from a male minor if they knock her up.
Golden is not canon and Akechi is a dead evil fricker.
The only people who like him are hybristophilic women anyways.
But he's right, they're hypocrites
"The ends justify the means" is not a good argument
They are hypocrites, the game actively says what they were doing was fueling Yaldy, and they choose to give up changing hearts afterwards
>We are the good guys because they are the bad guys!
So brainwashing is okay if you do it on people you consider criminals? You don't sound like a good-aligned character to me.
Madarame did nothing wrong
The only time he’s actively an “butthole” is when you are trespassing on his property. His shadow acts like an butthole yeah, but if you actually take what shadows say at face value then naoto is trans, kanji is gay, and Futaba killed her mother
plagiarism is literally a crime
Madarame purposefully let someone die (manslaughter?) so he could steal their painting and pass it off as his own (plagiarism), faked that it was stolen (fraud?), and then sold forgeries while claiming they were the real deal (definitely fraud). His real self, not his shadow, confessed to all of these things.
He was a fraudster
Maruki wasn't "targeting" anyone. He was using the Cognitive world to make everyone happy. Play the game, you stupid b***h.
>dude LE CRIMINALS??
according to whomst'd've'ly'yaint'nt'ed'ies's'y'e?
He’s wrong because the phantom thieves change hearts by making gays realize they’re gays consumes by distorted desires meanwhile he wishes to force people to change hearts by enslaving them with an all powerful AI which in the end was a means to bring about the satanical demiurge incarnate in earth.
He is making everyone happy. Are you saying you don't want people to be happy? No fun allowed? Typical Gankertard.
Well yeah, The team in 5 is ful lof morons, but they hunt pure criminals, and do it after an unanimous vote
>muh dick
The whole concept of entering people's minds and magically changing their "heart" is moronic from the get go, so who cares.
Maruki did NOTHING WRONG
>m-muh free will
have a nice day NOW
maruki is just a replacement for yaldabaoth, stepping in to create their ideal order.
There's nothing wrong with that because Maruki is not Yaldabaoth and from what we have seen of him he'd have humanity's best interests in mind. Plus you don't even know if in the real world we already got Maruki'd or not. There's also the fact that in our current world there's more people suffering than people not suffering thus from an objective point of view, Maruki's intended utopia would be an upgrade, anyone who says that he's wrong only enjoys "free will" because they are currently not suffering, if they were some Indian streetshitter that can barely eat every two days or a Mexican one or two years away from starring in a Kaotic video they's strongly disagree, and since in the world there are more poor, miserable people than rich, happy people I insist that MARUKI DID NOTHING WRONG FRICK JOKER AND FRICK THE PH*NTOM THIEVES
Maruki would take away someone's accomplishments if he thinks it's ruining someone else's happiness
This would happen right after he switched the world but two generations later it wouldn't matter anymore.
>or would he [deranged babble]
Your point is stupid because he is NOT Yaldabaoth thus he would be able to adjust accordingly by understanding his mistakes.
That's not evil though and he clearly doesn't consider himself above everyone else given he entertained Joker's moronic tantrum. And in the """"""""""bad ending""""""""""" you can see his answer to everything wasn't brainwashing, and even if it was it wouldn't matter because 1. you'd be better off 2. you don't know if that already happened in the regular world.
so it's okay as long as you don't know, so he's just yaldabaoth but makes people smile
Yes, tyranny is fine, in fact pretty much every religion is based on fact, but unlike gods we know Maruki is real.
so what was the issue with yaldabaoth then? he is reforming them as well.
That he wasn't human thus his point of view was inherently flawed and he wouldn't have our best interests in mind.
>he only brainwashed some people, he's not bad
>he didn't outright say he considers him above all, he just acts as if he knows better than anyone else concerning what makes them happy
why are you here? go on twitter and reddit, join a hive mind and only have the opinions media tell you to have
These opinions do not make me happy though nor are they aimed towards making a better world, thus they are not similar to what Maruki proposes.
i bet if they made a pill that made you be happy eith them you'd take it instantly
If every single human was forced to take them I'd have no issue with that, the problem is that in the real world that's never what happens.
maruki's vision of a perfect world where everyone is happy is just another delusion to create perfect order. in what ways would society change? or would he simply brainwash everyone to be content at whatever their current life is? how would he resolve international conflicts or economic issues?
maruki puts himself as the ultimate judge of what is "good". that's the evil part, that he considers himself above everyone and if you're not happy in his world he'll just brainwash you to be happy. three people want to be the best at chess? he'll pick one and chage the other two so they don't like chess anymore
The fact the PT keep running into the same issue of "Stop being hypocrites" really should tell them that maybe trying to justify their brand of mind control as just might actually be wrong.
Of course the PT always has the winning killshot regardless of philosophical debate on the topic of impeding free will of "try and stop me, homosexual"
Tony Stark?
The Phantom Thieves are technically lawgays because they don't support free will
Everyone is a Lawgay, Chaosgays are just failed Lawgays.
They literally do support free will. Taking down corrupt authority figures to give people back their free will is the entire purpose.
>They literally do support free will
>rob people out of theirs, just because they disagree with how they live their lifes
They don't rob people of their free will. They remove the magical cancer that's turning them into a tunnel-visioned maniac. They also speak directly to their shadows (the unconscious mind) which convinces them to change.
>They don't rob people of their free will.
>The speak directly to their shadows (the unconscious mind) which convinces them to change.
>Anon afraid to change his mind on something because he thinks changing his mind is the same as being robbed of his free will.
pathetic lol
Didn't Ann point a gun at Kamoshida's shadow and threaten to render him braindead if he didn't fess up irl
Sounds like coercion to me
THIS!! Also, if you think about it, the justice system is just as bad. Locking a person away just for rape and murder? That's like coercion. That's taking away someone's free will.
>No, no, we're not brainwashing people, we're helping them see the error of their ways, it's reformation
>You're literally threatening to kill them if they don't comply
>WELL IF THAT'S EVIL THEN ARRESTING PEOPLE AND PUTTING THEM ON TRIAL IS JUST AS BAD
>>You're literally threatening to kill them if they don't comply
Yeah the police/FBI do that and it's fricked up. People shouldn't be treated like that just because they rape, steal, kill and assassinate their way into political power.
Anon, I'm not sure you know how the Justice system works, but when a person is accused of having broken the law, they're arrested, put on trial to determine if they actually did break the law, and then given a punishment based on that
When the police harm someone, it's because they resist and become an immediate danger to those around them by threatening to harm someone else
The PTs pick targets based on (easily-rigged) popular opinion, skip determining how guilty they are before diving in, threaten them with brain death if they don't confess to their accused crime, and justify it by saying "Well that's how it's worked so far in this mumbo-jumbo magic world that not a single one of us fully understands"
They're dumbass kids who turned getting back at personal slights into a vigilante business where they act as unlicensed judge and executioner for the sake of fame, and get away with it
So what you're saying is everything is okay as long as the law doesn't catch you.
I mean, it worked for Joker, since nobody could prove he or the PTs did anything
>If they have a palace, the person is definitely fricked up or mentally disturbed.
According to who? The magic cat born less than a year ago who admits that he's just guessing?
And of course, they don't target JUST people who have palaces: they also target people who people whine about on their social media page. What's stopping a jerk from using the site to sicc the PTs on someone who disagreed with him? The fact that the victim has a guilty conscience, as if good people never feel any malicious emotions ever?
And as one last note, if "everyone who has a palace is fricked up or mentally disturbed", I think Joker has some explaining to do.
PTs can't do shit if you don't have a twisted desire. all the targets are said to have the seed of a palace growing inside them, you're just nipping them in the bud
>skip determining how guilty they are before diving in
If they have a palace, the person is definitely fricked up or mentally disturbed. Not only are they getting information from the abused in the real world, they can go into the palace owner's mindspace and see how they feel about the abused as well, usually which amounts to "I know I'm doing horrible shit and that's fine by me muahahaha". That's how palaces work.
Anon, the original point of this chain of replies is that the Phantom Thieves are just lawgays. Saying "NO THEY'RE NOT THEY JUST DO STUFF THAT'S LIKE LOCKING PEOPLE UP FOR BREAKING THE LAW" is not an argument against them being lawgays. Objectively speaking, punishment for crimes is restrictive of free will. In most cases, it's a good thing, but it's still restricting free will and it's still law.
>Phantom Thieves are just lawgays
They're not, they're specifically fighting against law figures because the justice system can't do shit to them or the people they're saving won't stand up for themselves.
No, they're FOR the law and against the MISUSE and abuse of the law.
Makoto wants to be police comish for fricks sake.
Oh yeah, "BAD ADULTS," another example of great writing these games have.
More like a great example of fundamentally misunderstanding Japanese culture for the last 50 years.
Elaborate.
Resentment towards "adults" goes back to Showa era. The sense that the previous generation has fricked the country over and the young generation are left to fend for themselves while old men play at ruling the world is deeply ingrained in Japanese society. You think P5 is unique? That resentment exists in all the Persona games if not all Japanese culture.
... ... ... What? I don't remember P4 cast screaming "FRICK ADULTS, ADULTS ARE CORRUPTED AND EVIL" constantly, like they did in P5.
I refuse to believe there is some kids vs. adults war going on in Japan.
That's not P4 though. And kids being frustrated with adults and their rules is universal when kids are mostly immoral annoying brats.
It's more like a cultural undertone. Emperor Tomato Ketchup is probably the most brazen example of this desire for the youth to "usurp" the authority of the elder generation. I think it has more to do with Japanese losing the war and being forced to emulate the american public school model than anything else.
lmao you're the moron who keeps spouting the "bad adults" shit like it's gunna stick.
It has been a meme for years, newbie. A meme based on truth. You don't think the PTs have resentment towards adults in P5?
>It has been a meme for years
That doesn't make it correct or accurate. In fact, that usually means it's a forcibly pushed shitpost.
Here's the truth:
1. Ryuji is the only one talking about shitty adults.
2. 2 adults in the story are very supportive and central to the plot to help the PTs.
3. Ryuji is really just pissed at corrupt authority, as is the central point of the game.
basically you never played the game.
You never played the game, Ann whines about adults too. Not only Ryuji. Probably Morgana too, even when he's a shadow. I have a foggy memory that Yusuke does that too in some line, but would have to check.
A game having a few adults the PTs approve doesn't mean they couldn't cry about adults all the time.
>A meme based on truth
Memes are almost never based on truth. It's the same with popular things usually focusing on the lowest common denominator and the best way to do that is to be really accessible (I.E. shit)
Memes are the same way. Memes get pushed because people get tired of correcting you gays, and most times when you get corrected, that makes you wanna push the meme HARDER.
There's no use talking to a fanboy like you, no such thing as critical thought exists in your head. You guys already revealed you live in your /pg/ thread, that's enough of a red flag for anyone who wants to have a level-headed discussion about the games. You are denying the most obvious things anyone notices when they play the games. That's why they become memes.
FOR REAL?!
Actually, that's not a meme, it's not based on reality... Not related to P5, doesn't happen... Ryuji never says that...
They will deny that Ryuji is a blabbermouth who talks too loudly and openly about their PT secrets. That's how delusional and stupid /pg/tards are.
i really dont get why dubgays are so defensive about ryuji
he is a loudmouth dumbass, why deny it?
>Violent behavior is good. PTs are the good guys. Brainwashing good.
This is your brains on /pg/.
literally nobody denies that or disagrees, fanboys or haters or otherwise. In fact he is the reason why "ADULTS BAD" became a meme, he never shuts up about it.
You just denied characters in the game say lines they do say, so you are not trustworthy when it comes to this game.
>You just denied characters in the game say lines they do say
Wrong, I said Ryuji was the only one who kept going on about shitty adults.
Who is Ann? Who is Futaba?
my wives
Nobody denies that. Ryuji's moronic, so I'm not sure why ADULTS BAD became such a meme when that's obviously Ryuji throwing a fit all the time.
You haven't provided anything of substance. Being critical doesn't mean you can just throw around lies and exaggerations and have everyone bend the knee to you because it's protected by the umbrella term "criticism". Your criticisms aren't valid, they're childish, shallow and usually mislead. I also don't visit /pg/ so if you wanna take your beef to them, go there instead of Ganker.
> That's why they become memes.
They become memes because you won't shut up about them.
Just like the "humans can't POSSIBLY defeat Servants" thing in Fate/Stay Night was a meme despite being debunked several times in the first few hours of the VN. It continued as a meme for 10 fricking years.
So, sorry if I don't see the validity in your dumbass shit.
>why ADULTS BAD became a meme
Because the brats keep whining about adults throughout the game which creates a shared easily-relatable experience and it's not limited to Ryuji. You'd know this, had you played the game.
Why would I speak with you further when it's clear you have no critical thought? You're a fanboy.
>Why would I speak with you further when it's clear you have no critical thought?
Because you can't help yourself, you're desperate to validate your knee jerk reactions and half-assed "criticisms" and can't provide anything but an arrogant insistence that you're correct.
Is Batman a Chaosgay because he's a vigilante, or is he a Lawgay because he punishes criminals that break the law and deeply values the spirit and essence of the law?
So they're lawgays that manipulate human desires (sin)
Chaos becomes Law when the all-powerful take control. Law breaks into Chaos when people are sick of being governed by the corrupt. This is the whole mandala, and the reason why Lucifer regrets becoming God in SMT5.
Going in and manipulating someone's mind is not supporting free will
>The phantom thieves are hypocrites, they shouldn't be allowed to stop criminals that are outside or above the law because it's against the law.
They're hypocrites because they don't like it when others do the mind controlling
Using mind control is an immoral act no matter how you spin it, Law-kun.
Why
Because it saves people from getting raped/manipulated/a country destroyed and that's not ok.
the phantom thieves never mind controlled anyone. they only make a person realize their distorted desires. it up ultimately up to the palace owner to change their ways. this is stressed many times. in fact in persona 5 all the people who changed their hearts ended up not learning much since they are so much of homosexuals that they would rather live in a prison of their own making instead of truly acknowledging their mistakes and seeking forgiveness.
Desires influence actions and by manipulating other person's desires, you are manipulating their actions, YOU IMBECILE!
>realize
you mean by beating them up and nearly killing them.
I never played persona 5 and never will.
Does no one the phantom thieves went after actually have enough spine to tell them to frick off even after losing? Did the phantom thieves ever have to kill anyone?
>Does no one the phantom thieves went after actually have enough spine to tell them to frick off even after losing?
No because the cause of their actions is a mental block called a "treasure" which twists their mentality and makes them sociopathic. Usually after a treasure is stolen and a shadow is defeated, the person in question becomes incredibly remorseful and rushes to the police to confess their crimes. The treasure distorts them.
The main characters literally have discussions of this, they don't exactly think they're doing inherently good things forcing a change of heart, but it's that or shit gets really bad because their targets are just that fricked up, never mind the lingering threats directly pushed onto their circle. Yeah they're hypocrites, but they're aware of it.
It doesn't seem hypocritical to me. It's like prison. Putting an innocent person in prison is a bad thing, but putting a truly guilty person in prison is good
yes, the strongest gets to choose the definition of justice, historically thats how society has always been
Persona 5 does not convey a good moral compass
Go figure
trannie homosexuals like maruki because then they could just keep on living their lies and grooming children without taking self responsibility.
NPCS/hylics truly are a thing.
Do the PTs ever acknowledge that what they're doing is immoral?
>immoral
at the very start a little bit and then never again, if you're referring to the brainwashing thing. Outside of that, their musings are mostly just about if it's okay for them to act in self interest in regards to shaping society.
They constantly have moments of self doubt and the entire finale of the game is about how they were actually feeding the greater problem
That is not pertaining to them actually brainwashing people and doing something that nigh on constitutes ego death. For that they have one conversation and decide that they're in the right.
They literally ask themselves if they're really doing the right thing any time it comes up and the finale is specifically about them realizing they were just sending the shadows they beat back to the prison for people's souls.
>They literally ask themselves if they're really doing the right thing any time it comes up
In regards to being vigilantes and thus changing / influencing society, not in regards to mindraping people. That happens the once, after Kamoshida does his little spiel about suicide during the assembly.
>specifically about them realizing they were just sending the shadows they beat back to the prison for people's souls.
Exactly, it was wrong of them to do that. They should have let Kamoshida rape more little girls and Kaneshiro sell drugs to kids and Shido assassinate more people for power and fame.
It was not wrong of them to do something, but there methods were enabling an even greater evil who was literally the one giving your main character his marching orders as part of some sick bet/game.
Okay pedo
Who's the best?
Strikers easily mogs the OG.
Nah, the original characters actually stand for something larger than the characters themselves which ties in better with the theme of the game. Strikers antagonists are exposition dumping clowns who are given half-assed sobstories to make gullible morons sympathize with them.
To be fair, I misread the post and assumed it was talking about designs.
>S+ Tier: Power Ranger Caesar
>Who Cares Tier: the rest
Wait, I forgot two.
Fricking Akira Konoe is the second best antagonist in the P5 series and even though he's just supposed to be a Shiddo stand in, he's much more entertaining and interesting as an actual character.
And cooler.
Love this bastard like you wouldn't believe.
He's also better than Madarame as a character, who's just kinda boring outside of the
>did he love Yusuke or not
angle.
And he and his palace / jail are much more fun, too.
>He's also better than Madarame as a character
Did I miss something? Natsume's a shit writer so he copied other writers and his publishers were just using his name to make money. How is that better than Madarame? Madarame watched a woman die so he could steal her work, manipulated other artists and even raised one with questionable affection but ultimately for his own gain. That's a far more interesting scenario than a dime-a-dozen Natsume.
>Did I miss something? Natsume's a shit writer so he copied other writers and his publishers were just using his name to make money. How is that better than Madarame? Madarame watched a woman die so he could steal her work, manipulated other artists and even raised one with questionable affection but ultimately for his own gain. That's a far more interesting scenario than a dime-a-dozen Natsume
That is Madarame's set up as an antagonist, not the actual content of his character. What you see is what you get, while Natsume at least has SOME layers to his shittyness.
>while Natsume at least has SOME layers to his shittyness.
I played Persona 5 Strikers twice. He doesn't. He's just a pussy who copied others. His arc is Madarame's arc but without any depth and a half-assed sympathetic backstory. It's really poor writing.
>Kino
Samael
Leviathan
Doppelganger
>Good
Asmodeus
Azazael
Pharoah (Sphynx)
Pendragon
Zephyr
>Meh Tier
White Rabbit
Snow Queen
Bael
>Kuso tier
Mamon
best is obviously shadow Futaba's midriff
She is a very cumpelling character.
man that vore ice queen was something
Sae, Futaba, and Alice are in a tier of their own because of neuron activation. I’ve never “Giwtwm” harder than when Alice was beating up her manager.
>Mind control by adults bad
>Mind control by teenagers good
As shrimple as that
>free will
>Law+ unironically creates a world free of that which ails mankind
>the way Atlus provided a downside to it was implying that if ayylmaos appear then humanity is fricked
I think Atlus just sorta fricked up and realized that Law+ is a perfect ending so they had to make up random out of nowhere bullshit to give it a downside since Chaos+ is straight up a "Frick it, let's hope and pray this won't devolve into normal Chaos"
Law+ is SMT's greatest argument for the benefits of mind control.
He's spitting facts.
This argument is moronic because the villains do worse crimes than the phantom thieves
It's like batman's "hurrr if i kill that means the amount of murderer in the world doesn't change"
Yes, it's a good thing when bad people are punished for doing bad things. Bad people should be beat up, killed, or mindcontrolled. If the justice system actually worked, thats what would happen to them anyway. The Phantom Thevies did nothing wrong
It was already revealed that the whole "changing people's heart things" was something the holy grail came up with to crush independent souls. It was clearly evil and worse than killing them. It's mind rape
Maruki was fine, the others probably returned to normal after the ending
I guess the real question is whether you think that manipulating someone's mind is worse than just stopping them some other way. I can see the case for the mind rape for truly evil people like Shido who is effectively a psychopathic murderer. A couple of the cases are more ambiguous.
It's not even mind rape, they are literally returning people to normal.
They are not. People like Shido are just like that, their personalities resisted the holy grail's attempt to enslave them because they are strongwilled. They are just also bad people
A neutralgay would kill the PTs given the chance
I'm a neutralgay and I don't see the PTs doing anything wrong. Criminals got caught, if not by the law, then some kids privy to their shit, and they got punished for it. The things the antagonists did wrong was getting caught.
Giving power to a select few individuals especially teenage morons to control minds is not neutralgay ideology when they're traditionally in favor of collective human free will. You're just a lawgay because all the PTs did was fuel a false god.
>because all the PTs did was fuel a false god.
pretty sure that was literally everyone else in the world EXCEPT the PTs. As evidenced by all those people trapping themselves in cages powering yaldabaoth.
A neutralgay would kill everyone if given a chance. I would sooner side with a Chaosgay than suffer the existence of the neutralgay.
SMT neutralgays are usually just "frick off demons" unless you're being resurrected by an angry irish man
Eh, Neutralgays are pro-demons plenty of times. Just using the SMTIVA example, the Bonds route is literally "lets team up with the demons."
The only time Neutralgays have been based is when they were actually "frick demons" like Yakumo and Gigahomie.
i know, "angry irish man" is Dagda. i can't think of any other entry where neutral plays out that way, but i haven't played the Devil Survivor games and i know those has multiple neutral endings too. most of the time it's been "you got the demons to frick off... for now :)"
i only remember the first tbh neutrals that are
>frick off demons
>we ran away then got forced to go back and make the demons frick off
>only glowies get to control demons
>play strikers up to before the last boss
>stop playing for a month
>forget how to play the fricking game
dammit
Why are you playing Persona spin offs
any argument is pointless when "twisted desire" is a proven concept in universe so there's never a risk to accidentally target people who don't deserve it
There's not a single person here who says the P5 MCs are wrong who isn't baiting for easy replies, or actually played the game. The game doesn't even give much wiggle room for morally grey thoughts, the PTs are objectively, morally in the right in just about every single way.
if anything the villains are the ones trying to justify themselves, as if their plans don't involve worldwide brainwashing. and yes, villains being all 100% evil is my issue with p5, it renders hollow anytime the PT argue if what they're doing is right.
>should we really change a person's mind?
yes, you're dealing with arapist that drove your friend to suicide, ruined the career of one of your party members and is threatning to expel you from school, plus the literal laws of the universe tell you he's evil and gave you the specific ability to not make him evil anymore
>and yes, villains being all 100% evil is my issue with p5,
Yeah you do sound like the kind of person who demands his antagonists to have a cop-out sympathetic backstory to justify their actions. In the real world, this isn't always the case. Sometimes an olympic gold medalist just lets his success get to his head. Sometimes an artist sees an easy way to further his career and he hasn't been caught for doing it, so he keeps going. Sometimes a gang member is just obsessed with money and doesn't care about people's feelings.
But more than that, the focus was never on these CHARACTERS. It's on the abused, the effects of the abusers, and the mob psychology of those who let them get away with it. The entire purpose of P5 avoiding shedding more light on the antagonists is to keep you from getting hyper-focused on them.
The antagonsist go from a personal slight, or a progressively bigger problem that effects more people, to the point the majority think "who cares? doesn't affect me." or "there's nothing we can do, so let's just let them get away with it."
If you have a problem with this sort of narrative then I'm sorry but you literally just didn't get it.
no, i don't want them to have a sob story. but if the game is gonna be all "what if you're doing something bad?" then it needs to give me a reason to think it can be bad, but all their targets are flat moustache twirling villains with very little to say about anything, they're mere plot device. and that is fine, but that doesn't make it interesting.
Kamoshida was great, it was entertaining to see just how deeply rotten that bastard was. depth ism't just a sob story, it's giving the character weight. you can reasonably say a lot about him, what he likes and who he is. meanwhile you get flat characters that like kaneshiro and the evil ceo i forgot the name of
>but if the game is gonna be all "what if you're doing something bad?"
It didn't, except in Strikers, which was fricking stupid. The contention in the PTs was "are we doing this for the good of the world, or because it makes us famous?" It's about their group philosophy, not their deeds or actions.
>depth ism't just a sob story, it's giving the character weight
And the characters didn't need weight, because again that would distract you from the fact they are STAND-INS. They are not supposed to be isolated people who are given a lot of thought or consideration, they are crystallizations of common thought processes many people have.
I'm not sure how you managed to avoid the point so hard. Giving the characters weight like you said would actively go against everything the game is trying to do.
Kamoshida was different because he needed to be different to get the ones PERSONALLY VICTIMIZED involved enough to make a change. Afterwards, they have the power and they feel it's their right to do that same thing for the people who can't or are too afraid to defend themselves.
anon i know why the story does what it does, shit, it's a shonen anime, it's not high literature. i just didn't find it very engaging from a moral standpoint.
weight is just making them memorable and interesting, if a character is so interesting it distracts you from the themes of the story what the frick are you even writing?
>if a character is so interesting it distracts you from the themes of the story what the frick are you even writing?
Clearly if the character is not as important as his situation and the people involved, the writing is then focused on the situation and the people involved?
If you're reading a book, and a character doesn't have much description or character, that doesn't make it bad writing, it means the character is not very important.
If a villain of one chapter gets massive infodump paragraphs for what amounts to a very small piece of a larger narrative, that's unnecessary and wordy.
obviously, but these characters and their palace shaped by their desires and perception of reality are core parts of the story. you spend in game hours on their plots and their dungeons so yeah, not being able to remember the name of half of them is a flaw.
and yes, in p5 even vanilla the PT do stop to wonder if what they're doing is right, quite often too
>Herp derp the PTs are in the wrong for stopping criminals who are mentally fricked enough to develop a palace and also the law can't do anything to stop them.
>Herp derp Maruki is in the right for brainraping literally everyone to fit his own desires and values.
I think Persona 5 might just be too smart for you guys.
All the discourse around the Phantom Thieves and how people want to be them or think they should really exist is its own special hell of brainrot that completely missed the point of everything. It's that meme of the arrow flying over the guy's head as he focuses on missing the point. It also doesn't help that at the long end of the ride, Yabbadabba intentionally invoked a lot of this shit and manipulated every step to his goals, so in the end the PTs were never fixing things that weren't to his advantage anyway.
It's just trolls. They find it entertaining to be stupid. It's not possible to actually hold their opinion if they played the game at all.
I don't think these people are trolling pretending to be stupid. They really are that stupid
Downhill after Kamoshida.
In ye olde days, if a King killed us for having a poor crop thanks to an extended winter, we rebelled and killed the King.
Now, apparently, we says it's unlawful to rebel against the King and it's wrong to go against his rule no matter how awful.
Thanks for making me sad, Ganker.
you see if i can just polish the kings balls enough i surely won't die (i'm scared of that)
honestly a big thing with this stuff is the Japanese values shit that haunts this game's narrative. you do not disrespect someone of authority or higher status than you, and you don't try to stick out from the crowd in a way that could be considered socially disruptive. the entire culture is functionally ingrained like this, more than any wagecuck shit you see in the west, which is why the salaryman stereotype that works to his death is hardly a stereotype.
I can imagine P5 was actually rather impactful in its home nation because the entire story is sticking it to the bastards that would be completely untouchable in their society, but now you just have dumbasses on both sides of the isle in western discussion about it
aisle
i blame bad sleep
"We" rebelled and killed the king?
No, his power-hungry lords rebelled against the king, rallying us to be their foot soldiers by playing into our desires for better conditions by promising us better lives once the current king is deposed.
Which may or may not actually happen, but what are you, as an individual, going to do about it?
>"We" rebelled and killed the king?
yeah, human beings. You are human, right?
>Which may or may not actually happen, but what are you, as an individual, going to do about it?
So you're just gunna keep taking it laying down and defend the King by telling any rebels they're just as bad for wanting a better life?
>So you're just gunna keep taking it laying down and defend the King by telling any rebels they're just as bad for wanting a better life?
I mean, you are. Why else would you be shitposting on Ganker instead of going and killing your corrupt king?
His better point was
>I was abused and nearly beaten to death as a child and I just want to help kids that have to suffer like I do, but when I change peoples minds to do that, you say that's evil, while you only change people's minds if it's convenient to you or pertains to you
The problem isn't even that you can't make an argument against his methods or the ways he acts, it's that the game somewhat introduces the idea that what the phantom thieves are doing isn't great but only pays lip service to the idea and doesn't really further investigate the idea. And they don't really engage those arguments, either. It's like how they don't thoroughly engage Maruki's, except there they at least acknowledge that they're acting in self interest and are being selfish.
However, it's not as bad as the Adachi / Investigation team "argument".
>However, it's not as bad as the Adachi / Investigation team "argument".
"You're wrong because you're a friendless loser" remains one of the most mind-boggling moronic counter-arguments I had to sit through. I can try and give it a pass because they are inarticulate, inexperienced teenagers who don't know how to shed light on the very obvious flaws, but holy frick.
I don't like Persona writing because it's just good guys vs bad guys. The Phantom Thieves are pussy homosexuals that don't even kill for their ideology.
their powers don't necessitate killing anyone thoughever
Which is why I don't like them
The writing isn't just "good guys vs bad guys", that's the vehicle that's used to explore the themes.
Maybe the game is just 2deep4/v/.
Yeah a lot of P5 is based on the japanese mentality of not "disrupting the peace". The whole rebellion theme and pointing out the flaws in japanese justice systems and creating scenarios where vigilantes are necessary to save people was throwing light on the populace's inability to stand up for themselves.
>The writing isn't just "good guys vs bad guys", that's the vehicle that's used to explore the themes
The themes are boring "rebel against unjust authority" but that's probably just because I'm not Japanese so I can't relate
>The themes are boring
I think people like you who can't engage their brain at all are boring. Even worse if you demand others stop thinking as well, that makes you annoying and stupid.
What an absurd absolutist statement. Because he doesn't enjoy one literary theme that a work decided to focus on, all of a sudden he can't appreciate or enjoy any sort of literary work and is a functional troglodyte?
Yes.
>Because he doesn't enjoy one literary theme
He doesn't even know what the literary theme because he doesn't care to unless the main characters kill people.
Because the themes are self evident to anyone from the west that paid attention in school. The history of rebellion, reformation, and change in society has always been violent so of course Persona 5's limp wristed presentation of those themes would appear to be interesting to anyone without a functioning brain
>People in power are corrupt so let's change their hearts and have them submit to a higher authority which is corrupt and incompetent themselves for allowing these things to happen
It's a shit theme nothing was accomplished. Even fricking shit like the Gundam series understands that.
The west has a frickload of narratives about rebellion though.
>The history of rebellion, reformation, and change in society has always been violent
The point of Persona 5 is that people have become far more mundane, less violent and easy to manipulate.
Indeed, and the phantom thieves, through their self righteous, self serving and ultimately violent acts are the rebels, alongside their targets, who are all also violent and self serving rebels in their own way.
are you fricking moronic?
Are you? The phantom thieves literally kill the god of control and reinstate individuality. Their earlier targets were people that had managed to self actualize and divorce themselves from the prison of society, they straight up tell you that via narration in the end of mementos.
Yeah? So why haven't you done anything to rebel against the current abusive tyrants?
Because I have yet to be abused
So it's fine to ignore the people who are? Welcome to Persona 5. Enjoy your stay.
That's what the PTs are doing to a large extend, though. That's a massive character flaw for them. For the largest part of the game they're only going after targets that would give them more fame or directly affect them in some way (mementos targets of dubious canon status notwithstanding).
Even Akira Konoe talks about that in the OP's pic.
>That's what the PTs are doing to a large extend, though
huh? They literally listen to the cries of the abused and then go after the people they are capable of stopping (who have palaces) and the law can't crack down on.
>For the largest part of the game they're only going after targets that would give them more fame
"a large part" being like 1-2 dungeons and they correct their group philosophy.
>Even Akira Konoe talks about that in the OP's pic.
Ah, you're a Strikers defender. No wonder. Konoe just threw pointless criticisms at the PTs that never stuck because they're inaccurate or misdirections like "well you guys target criminals, so I should be able to control everyone in the world". False equivalence at its finest. That's why Konoe is an antagonist and not the good guy.
>So it's fine to ignore the people who are?
Nobody actually gives a shit about what's outside their immediate view not even Atlus given that every Persona game is centered around Japan.
>Stupid fricking weeb
Persona 5's writing is milquetoast to any western consumer because we already have a history of revolution it's obvious to us but not to an eastern consumer.
>it's obvious
Something being obvious doesn't mean you understand it, or should avoid discussing, thinking about it, or looking at it from different angles. That's just ignorance and that's how corporate israelites take control of you.
Philosophers don't boldly tell the world of shit nobody has ever considered. They break down the obvious and explore it through a looking glass. That's all philosophy is - looking at the "obvious".
Are you being facetious or are you seriously comparing Persona 5 of all things with philosophical quandaries?
For some reason I knew you would have a problem with an example and get upset about it instead of actually using the example to understand my point.
>Persona writing because it's just good guys vs bad guys
It's mostly 4 and 5 that fall into explicit villains that happen to be controlled by gods, even the first two games weren't so weird about it. But you're also fricked up if you think murdering someone to stop them is the primary solution.
The Phantom Thieves didn't even accomplish anything, nothing changed which is ultimately why I don't care for their story.
i mean they did stop the world from becoming boneworld
are the phantom thieves even good guys?
they are morally grey at best
Is Batman?
Yes. Technically not heroes in the traditional sense, and Yab was pushing them along their path the entire time in his rigged game to take over the world, but they do save lives and stop some genuinely horrific people or prevent some more troubled folks from making terrible decisions. They're not supposed to be infallibly good, they even ruminate on that with each other and think they shouldn't have the right to the power they wield as an absolute potential for control over everything that they COULD have if they wanted, but the story pits them against such absolute shitlords or people that need fixing that they just slot into heroes anyway.
No, they just a bunch of homosexuals who hated adults and didn't cared about ruining succesful people lives
didnt they like make the point early on that PT are Chaos Leaning since the start?
that boss fight was pure, unfiltered kino
>Because the themes are self evident to anyone from the west that paid attention in school.
That's a bold, sweeping and dismissive statement and I'm not sure you realize just how ignorant and close-minded you sound.
>Stop making stories about this because *I* think it's obvious and don't want to think very hard about it.
christ almighty, no wonder nobody respects the west.
>That's a bold, sweeping and dismissive statement and I'm not sure you realize just how ignorant and close-minded you sound.
what a hilarious statement given this follow up
>christ almighty, no wonder nobody respects the west.
>That's a bold, sweeping and dismissive statement and I'm not sure you realize just how ignorant and close-minded you sound.
I'm not close minded I just have little tolerance for people that lack critical thinking. The presentation of these themes should be obvious and self evident to anyone in the west but not the east because they do no promote a culture of individualism which is why western Persona fans are commonly told that they're moronic because they think Persona is unique in its messages when Western society is already built around what the ideals the games have presented. It's the same reason why people call superhero movies capeshit.
The point of Persona 5 is to tell the Japanese that they lack individuality which is the biggest reason for the stagnation of their nation.
>The point of Persona 5 is to tell the Japanese that they lack individuality which is the biggest reason for the stagnation of their nation.
That's an over-arching theme of the Persona series - the self and the relation to the community. But the point of Persona 5 specifically is to tell people to be more willing to fight back against oppressors.
>one traumatized guy wants to brainwash everyone into happiness and lawfulness
>but he also trusts a manipulative AI too much, drives a man to suicide, knowingly has a child manipulated for a Jail while simply not even caring for the individual details, is heavily driven by vengeance and spite for what had happened to himself, and wants to push his views onto everyone in the world overall without any choice in the matter because his trauma matters more than anything else
>"oh but when i do it, i'm the bad guy?"
yes, yes you absolute lunkhead of a my hero wannabe. not a single thing that happens to you can justify fricking with everyone else globally because you don't want it to happen to others as a nuclear solution. that'd be like if Shinji from Evangelion was given that opportunity to create a new world and he made his own escapist paradise where everyone would be "fixed" -- he didn't, because even HE knew he didn't have that right.
The end justifies the means is his philosophy in regards to that, the same as what the phantom thieves belief in regards to their violent and incredibly invasive acts of brainwashing and vigilantism.
and pray tell what do the Phantom Thieves do in their acts of going into the Metaverse to stop select targets, and what do they do outside of that, to be considered "violent" besides fighting Shadows
During their first change of heart they're literally threatening to kill Kamoshida unless his shadow changes it's mind. They're threatening death upon him if he should not brainwash himself.
The original game literally ends with PT realizing they were being puppeteered by Yaldy and that change of hearts was his bullshit, social links are the true way to change the world. Indeed Joker is saved by his social links and is only able to defeat Yaldy because of them.
It's Royal and Strikers that tries to spin this narrative of good change of heart vs bad, but it's flimsy because the original game is literally not written around it.
Daily reminder that I want to frick Morgana (forma de camioneta)!
>another pseud thinks he's special for siding with persona villains
>kamoshida's english voice is a guy who is now fired from capcom because he leaked re4 remake details to attempt to get some pussy
it writes itself
He was a pretty good casting choice then
>The charges, Officer?
>You unraped thousands of girls! Immediate death penalty for you!
him just deleting sumire is a good example of how his new world would work
No, him forcefully changing people because he believes their dreams wouldn't make them happy or because their dreams might be clashing with another persons desires or wants is a good example of it.
That's honest to god the real crux of the issue - he's not a literally omnipotent being in control of an infinite number of realities, which he would need to craft literally everyone's perfect realities.
feels like the Strikers writing and the Royal writing both tried to have the "anti-villain that makes the thieves question themselves" moment by pure coincidence, except Royal actually did it competently and Strikers made it a farce
Neither did it competently, you're just a fanboy. The moment both games started discussing free will they both fell apart, writing-wise. Persona 5 writing is bad. But both are good games for other things they did right.
No, Persona 5 Royal was very competently written inside and out. The character writing is weak, but the theming and exploration of the core message is very well done. What did you have a problem with specifically?
I can tell you don't read books, because P5 Royal's story and the writing involved in it was borderline insulting. It's obvious the writers had no clue of the philosophical concepts and literature they discussed in the games. The way they handle the discussion related to free will is very naive and childish. Not good writing.
And of course the hypocrisy related to the Phantom Thieves brainwashing people and then denying its immorality is bullshit. And questionable turn of events, like Hifumi never taking full responsibility of her cheating, are constant.
It's badly written. Just because a kid is entertained with their brains turned off doesn't mean something is good. P5 Royal and Strikers are the same in this regard.
>questionable turn of events, like Hifumi never taking full responsibility of her cheating, are constant.
Here's the thing: She's a teenager, so she's a pure soul that can't do no wrong.
While Shido is irredeemable because evil, traitorous murderer, Akechi is a smoll bean in spite of evil traitorous murderer, because teenager I'm not just shitposting, the game tries desperately to frame him as a tragic character who could've redeemed himself, somehow
After Hifumi's mother stops arranging her matches, iirc Hifumi's only aftermath reaction is: "For the first time, I lost a match... I like challenge."
And Joker just nods along. WHAT THE FRICK! At least go apologize to the players you fricked over.
>I can tell you don't read books
I do read books, just finished the count of monte criso, house of leaves and the eye of the world recently.
>because P5 Royal's story and the writing involved in it was borderline insulting.
It's not, it's done pretty well.
> It's obvious the writers had no clue of the philosophical concepts and literature they discussed in the games.
It doesn't discuss any literature in the games, it addresses points and scenarios exactly as they are presented in a very clear format.
>The way they handle the discussion related to free will is very naive and childish.
It's a game aimed at teenagers primarily, and you haven't told me why you think it's naive and childish to begin with. You're slinging criticisms with nothing to base them on. That's poor writing on your part.
>And of course the hypocrisy related to the Phantom Thieves brainwashing people
This is how I know you didn't play Persona 5. There is no brainwashing involved. The treasure is a trap designed to hyper-focus the subconscious into disregarding the moral repercussions of their actions. The PTs remove this and the subconscious returns to normal. They cannot target or alter anyone's psyche unless they have a treasure - which is a mental cancer that needs to be removed.
You keep repeating this "they are brainwashing" nonsense but that argument is only held up by misinformation, lies or ignorance on your part.
>it doesn't discuss any literature in the games
It doesn't need to discuss the literature, but if you are a good writer and discuss philosophical themes, you need to understand those philosophical themes and discussions. And P5 Royal shows its writers do not.
>It's a game aimed at teenagers
Yes, but it's misleading teenagers. The structure of the story in general is built around a simple palace infiltration loop.
And no, you don't read books. And no, you don't understand what the Metaverse (stupid name btw, but this is the fault of the localizers) is. The Phantom Thieves manipulate the actions of other individuals and you can't deny this with your semantics.
>Bad Writing
>Doesn't elaborate
>I've read books!
Fantastic
It's pretty easy to tell someone reads books when they act like they are an objectively higher form of intelligence than any other lol. Fricking anyone can get anything published.
i remember having a local author show up for my creative writing class and it was just a girl who wrote what was essentially a pirates of the carribbean fanfic
>local woman writes "tunnels of time" series
>re-releases them a few years ago but there was a clear effort to make it sound like that these were brand new books and not a second run of publishing her 20 year old books
i was so confused when i saw an article about a NEW tunnels of time book, and I looked over at the bookshelf and saw a 15 year old copy of said book, and it wasn't even the newest in the series
Meant "doesn't read books". There are more shit books than good.
Yeah it's honestly hard to find good fantasy novels in particular. Reading one series right now, The Ruin of Kings followed up by The Name of All Things and the dialogue is almost entire marvel equips and the author abuses the frick out of paragraph breaks for emphasis to the point it becomes monotonous.
Yes, shallow and pedantic.
competently in the sense that Maruki is actually sympathetic, not that he was doing a good thing, versus Konoe being a tremendously hypocritical and self-important jackass
>Strikers made it a farce
Strikers was a farce inside and out. It was a lower quality carbon copy of the original story. Even the artist arc was 1:1 Natsume : Madarame except even shittier.
Counterpoint: Strikers introduced two party members that were far better than any from the main game and Akira Konoe AND Ichinose managed to be more interesting characters than the extremely bland politician caricature.
Hard agree with new StrikerS party members being by far the best ones of any version of P5.
Hard disagree on villain, Shido is perfect secondary villain for P5 that perfectly embodies the idea of the villains being a symptom of the cancer lurking beneath society. By comparison, autist and shittier Maruki are trash.
>Counterpoint: Strikers introduced two party members that were far better than any from the main game
Sophie/a was just Aigis but done worse.
Zenkichi was alright but like all Persona 4/5 characters, gets little to no development outside of his specific arc which didn't amount to much. He's at least more appealing than the rest of the P5 cast though, being a single dad is far more interesting than the rest of the bunch.
Also Akira Konoe was a shit, bland frickin character and Ichinose was a dipshit. I'm not gunna bother comparing them as characters to P5's counterparts because the antagonists in P5 weren't meant to be more than what they are presented as, the focus wasn't on that.
I like Sophie more than Aigis. I wish she (and Zenkichi) were in the base game, at least for the theming having her opposite Yaldabaoth her mythological son.
Why did they add Tony Stark to a Persona game?
Strikers came out literally at the height of Tony Stark's popularity as a character.
gamers tend to struggle with these basic questions
I didn't know P5 featured such a hot guy god DAMN
INCEL COP? WON
AIZEN? WON
TONY STARK? WON
TWINKS, MASCOTS AND b***hES? LOST
>"So when you put people in jail, it's right, but when someone else does it, it's wrong?"
And neither of them is the state.
Velvet room gives the authority
If the state had the power to convict them, it would. And did, once they confessed.
Yes anon, vigilantism is very serious crime with very harsh punishment for it
madicce nuts
I love this theme about justice. Tales of Vesperia did it well and Persona 5 causes threads like these.
"The law is the tool of whoever happens to hold all the chips."
>Tales of Vesperia did it well
Not really, Yuri was childish hypocrite, only teens who never grew up could like something like that
Not really, he was right to fight against criminals the law can't touch. That's rebellion in its purest form, and the responsibility of the people if the law can't do anything about it. Only israelites who benefit from keeping people manipulated and shackled would argue against it.
So, it's okay for everyone to kill whoever they want if they think they are doing the right thing?
Wow, you really need to move to africa to see how this shit works
>So, it's okay for everyone to kill whoever they want if they think they are doing the right thing?
No of course not, which is why this scene in particular was such a turning point for Yuri. And why he didn't shit on her for doing it.
He was performing a "necessary evil" and was fully willing to accept the consequences of his actions should they come to him. They didn't, because in the end his actions were objectively right and had he not killed the evil antagonists, they would have continued to perform their evil actions unabated.
It's a re-occuring thing throughout the game that whenever Yuri kills someone, Flynn is getting closer.
>Ragou
Flynn is powerless.
>Cumore
Flynn arrives right after the murder.
>Alexei
Flynn is fighting along side Yuri, Alexei gets crushed by the stone, a thematic symbol that he is crushed under the weight of his own actions. Flynn has established himself as a better law enforcer by this point.
The law is fixed, Yuri's actions are no longer necessary.
>He was performing a "necessary evil"
Any psycho can think like that
Any good natured person can think like that
Again, law punishes vigilantism very harshly not because someone thinks he's above law and rulers, but because it leads to anarchy and country being destroyed
>bbbbut it's okay only for me to kill whoever I don't like, anyone else should obey law, they are fricking ship
This is called being fricking hypocrite
>Any psycho can think like that
But we, as the viewers, have the power to judge that for ourselves and you'd have to be insane to think Yuri did anything wrong.
it's okay only for me to kill whoever I don't like,
if "whoever I don't like" are actual political criminals who feed kids to monsters for fun, then yeah, if the law isn't going to do something about it, someone should.
You seem like the very gullible type.
The israelites are right, you goyim need to be controlled, you don't even follow your own laws. Contemptible!
>Tales of Vesperia did it well
The frick it did.
Theres a lot of good in Vesperia but they butchered Yuris murder activism really hard
>YURI MAYBE ITS NOT RIGHT TO MURDER ANYONE YOU LIKE
>lmao yea it is
>OKAY YOU ARE RIGHT AND PERFECT AS ALWAYS
The game desperately needed Yuri to fail at something and not just act like a 12 year olds definition of a cool character
I liked how his actions almost bought him his death and only at that point he realized that in someone's else eyes his action and even himself might have deserved same punishment as he enacted.
Sounds like you just hate Yuri so you come up with childish, flimsy reasons to hate him. He's a good character with a solid reasoning behind his actions.
He kills unrepentant criminals that won't suffer consequences if he doesn't step in right now, or if he just ignores it, there will be far more casualties until they finally face justice.
Anon if they never brought attention to it, ironacally it would be fine.
BUT they beat your head over and over again how its supposed to be a moronic battle of ideology with him and Flynn.
But then its not because fricking everyone just jacks Yuri off like they do all game.
Remember the big reveal where the party finds out hes been capping people?
>wow Yuri thats wrong, but whatever lol youre so great
The entire clash of ideals comes off as a fricking joke since Yuri is 110% justified in everything like everything Yuri does. Because Yuris a character for brainlets who cant handle actual challenges to themselves and he comes off as a fricking power fantasy self insert character.
>everyone just jacks Yuri off like they do all game.
They don't, that's again your bias. You hate him, and any compliment paid to Yuri is "jacking him off". You're so incomprehensibly asspained by this guy.
>>wow Yuri thats wrong, but whatever lol youre so great
They don't say that. They're shocked and avoid bringing it up because it's tangential to their goals at the time.
Yuri is justified until he is no longer necessary, the point is his actions aren't a perfect cure-all solution and when taken to the extreme (like Duke) they cause more harm than good. He was a bandaid fix until Flynn could establish himself.
I still can't believe this game is unironically good from a gameplay standpoint. The story isn't AS horrid as the originals (even though the villains are blatant repeats), the music is arguably better, the main cast feels less insufferable, what the frick happened?
Why wouldn't the game be good from a gameplay standpoint? What's so unbelievable about it?
Well you see it's very simple
P5=bad
Thus creates the expectation that "anything involving p5=potential to be bad"
Granted, it was the Musou guys, but even they have made some slop under that genre. If you ask me, Strikers is how Persona should be, and if it were a bit more fleshed out for combat, it would be considered peak character action. It's so fricking close. I'm just upset because I despise P5 so much.
Very few Koei Tecmo games are actually shit, they're just underwhelming or get poor decisions made. Like Warriors All-Stars or Fire Emblem Three Hopes.
or Dynasty Warriors 9, frick i memory holed that again
I really don't get people constantly jerking off musou spinoffs as if the gameplay is so much better than DW or SW. It's no better, it even has the same annoying shield thing DW8 had except you have to spam spells to get rid of it.
>the main cast feels less insufferable
They're even more insufferable because of the spinoff flanderization that always happens, the frick are you talking about.
>character action
Oh that explains everything.
>5 baby upset that people like the spinoff that's better in every way more than his sloppy game
I didn't mention base p5 anywhere in that post. I was adressing you thinking the gameplay is "unironically good" when it's typical koei musoushit. No amount of changes would make it come close to being as good as a real action game, or even sengoku basara.
It's better than Sengoku Basara. Cope.
If you have to ask that, look for yourself. All of P5 is drawn out, with bad, unfulfilling character dialogue, unlikable characters, mary sue writing, bad pay offs, bad character depth, an infantile understanding of moral issues, and so on. Anyone who praises it is exactly the same person who puts Automata on a pedastal. It's not our fault you can't think for yourself and haven't developed your brain. The fact that P5 Royal is even worse is truly impressive, I would take my hat off if I had one. It's genuinely astounding how they made the story even worse because of that trick ending.
>It's better than Sengoku Basara
Wrong, and Strikers is still shittier than literally any other action game.
I find it really funny that the Phantom Thieves have this edgy criminal aesthetic full of historical and mythological lawbreakers when their plan to solve bad things happening is exactly the same as Law’s brainwashing schemes in like three previous SMT games. They’re maybe the most Law-aligned protags in any SMT or Persona game.
That's what makes them neutral by SMT standards, ironically. They follow Chaos to do what they feel they need to do, yet do it to the idea of the proper Law that should be punishing those as they would be had society not been apathetic, and then rescind their power and prevent a higher god from taking control.
the pts don't brainwash.
>Yes, but it's misleading teenagers.
It's not misleading unless you're moronic, like you.
>And no, you don't read books.
If your argument really rests on whether I read books or not, you do not have an argument.
I think you're just a troll and I'm ashamed at myself for falling for such moronic bait, so I'm gunna retreat now. Feel free to throw up a victory post.
>the pts don't brainwash.
Oh they just forcibly incept people's unconscious minds and insert new information and remove old aspects pertaining to it!
No brainwashing here, no sire!
they dont
>Shadow Kamoshida change yourself and your conscious mind OR WE WILL MURDER YOU AND GUT YOU LIKE A PIG
>"they dont"
no wonder you homosexuals concentrate solely on coomer wifu posting when it comes to these games.
you Black folk are literally unironically too smooth brianed to understand the depths of persona.
carry on seeing it as you wish.
That LITERALLY happens man. It LITERALLY happens. Ann LITERALLY threatens to murder him if he doesn't change his conscious personality and repents.
>trying to brainwash people into believing it's wrong to be angry at child rapists
this is illegal.
yes, so is vigilantism, and for many a great reason at that. Unless you're of the belief that the government should brainwash you for wrongthink.
you think in black and white
the fact you think the law is always objectively, morally correct and infallible alone makes you moronic.
being a pedo homosexual is morally wrong. if you think theres a black n white are in burning such abomination then it makes sense why persona games would make you homosexuals seethe.
People who praise this game's writing squirm like worms in front of this post.
based ann
dont forget how she wanted him to repent because that's longer suffering than sweet release of death
bro you can't just make a rapist repent, that's MANIPULATION
ann is hot
Im on her side
bro just rid people of their free will and individuality, it's totally cool and correct (except P5 literally disagrees half the time)
bro you can't just punish criminals wat the frick??? that's so MEAN
so true, cut4Akechi, he innocent, it was all shido's fault
no they're criminals moron
>akechi gets ressurected thanks to his popularity
thieves were right,will of others, especially masses, should be ignored
he got resurrected specifically due to fujoshi wanting joker to frick him, so he was Maruki's actualization of Jokers' perfect reality.
bro you can't just make everyone happy,
that's MANIPULATION
t. Phantom Thieves
freedom from choice is not freedom from consequences.
There's no freedom.
seethe homosexual. continue to blame the world for you being such a disgusting abomination all you.
There's this thing called science. Try it. Or don't, it'd probably go over your head anyway.
you are just going to keep proving how much of a homosexual you are?
BURN homosexual.
You sound very mentally stable. A true rational stoic, you. Surely a man admired far and wide.
I dont give a frick what you label me. if I had a chance I would burn pedo homosexuals on the spot. no second thoughts.
may God judge me for my sins when I depart from this life. If Im going to hell I would take you pedo homosexuals with me. no second thoughts.
I only like adults. You need to calm down a bit.
I think this exposes the problem with the PT and the game tries to touch on it but of course it falls flatter than a body hitting water.
We can agree that child rapists should be stoned to death, or whatever you deem similar. But the problem is that the game, retroactively, frames the brainwashing of Kamoshida as a bad thing because it tries to say "hey you can't just do whatever you want with such a power, it's kinda fricked". If you look at Kamoshida in a vaccuum as a lone incident: who the frick cares? He's a piece of shit. He deserved it, most would say. But then the writing dictates that the PT have to make their presence known in order to properly infiltrate palaces, and it becomes this weird glorification of what they're doing as "justice" even though it's just brainwashing. So it comes down to the question: is brainwashing evil people morally good? It's almost like a question you wouldn't even bother answering, because it feels ridiculous. Would you kill a child predator? A good bit of people would. But it differs from each kind of person you encounter. If I recall, for Kawakami's, she had someome blackmailing her. So for that example: would you kill someone blackmailing you? Probably not. Your mileage may vary. But under the guise of "justice", they brainwash them, and it undermines the whole issue of "injustice" the game has, because apparently the only way you can beat injustice is using super natural powers or killing a god who somehow has all the negativity in him. I guess. It's a very shitty message.
So now we ask: how can we fix the PT? And the answer is: you probably can't. There's some concepts that just aren't good. The idea of a modern day Robin Hood isn't bad, but when all your answers to solving the issues of others in game is to fricking brainwash your problems away, it's so stupid. I'm not saying that having extensive dialogues with them therapy-ing the villains and other enemies would be better, but it would be a better attempt.
I'm the one calling P5 writing bad and I wouldn't bother writing messages as long as yours to prove it to strangers but I want to shake your hand because you understand writing.
You're a moron who couldn't even the understand the basic ass story of P5, m8. Did you miss the bit where the Phantom Thieves are working for a malevolent entity bent on eradicating mankind? The game is very explicit that the problem is not the individual criminals, but a society that turns a blind eye to them, that refuses to act because it's not Japanese. All the parents knew Kamoshida was abusing children mentally, physically, sexually and none of them did anything. The crazy thing is, Kamoshida is based on a real scandal that happened in reality. Or maybe it's not so crazy, it happens all the damn time. Morgana literally spouts the message of the game after the final battle, you don't need super powers to change the world, people can change their reality every day by reaching out to other people instead of letting the sloth of society dictate their life.
>I think this exposes the problem with the PT
that they punish criminals?
My arguments do not rest on that claim and I can change it to something else if you'd prefer. What is important is that when somebody calls P5 writing good, I can only assume they're clueless when it comes to writing. The game is still entertaining, but just admit it's about the atmosphere, the music and leveling up, not about writing. The writing is pretty stupid.
The writing is good, you think they brainwash people, the problem is you for misunderstanding.
>Bad Writing™
But why is it bad?
Because I don't get it.
This is right. They even say so in Royal. "I'm sure many would be happy under Maruki's rule" they admit, but they value their freedom far above security.
Specifically, they value THEIR freedom, and the freedom of likeminded individuals, above everyone else's security and happiness. There could be 3 billion people on the planet living objectively better, happier, kinder lives due to Maruki and they would still believe themselves right for destroying it under the assumption that there are people who want to be like them.
and they are right one way or another
maruki's reality is a sham
Because he hasn't fully integrated with the world yet or awakened his true persona. The game outright tells you that Maruki isn't at full power.
how is that supposed to make things better?
he would completely rob people of self awareness on top of turning the entire world into his messiah doll house
He would rewrite whole personalities and lifes of people. Remove memories of being abused by boyfriend and overwriting boyfriend personality. Getting rid of person's life of trying and changing his hobbies. Another part- he would break people apart, it's implied if thieves stayed in perfect world they would lose their connection as rewriting past destroyed reason for them meeting.
We saw that Maruki's idea of paradise was Eden like. Perhaps final destination was getting rid people of desires as that would've been easier to manage, at which point it's not that different from mementos prison.
One last point, by his own metrics Maruki deserved to be 'saved' and 'healed'. Can you really believe in such person being in charge?
The better example was the dude who loved piano but sucked ass at it so Maruki wouldnt let him play it because "it was a waste of time"
the test segment inside his palace was really showing his garbage mindset, but people completely ignore it for some reason
>Specifically, they value THEIR freedom
Correct.
Scroll up and I gave many examples. I won't write a whole essay, although one could.
They brainwash people by influencing their subconscious in the Metaverse, yes, strictly in this sense. "Brainwashing" is not the best term because it can imply more, but it is mental manipulation.
Law only brainwashes in spinoff called sj, which is simplified all alignments
Depending on part in story of P5/R party does admit it. They often say they are doing 'their' [idea of] justice. Rejecting mementos will or Maruki is them putting their values over anyone's else.
To certain degree, by rules of series, that's MC's/wild card's privilege.
Kamoshida
>Pedophilia is okay when you do it
these are the type of homosexuals who dont and cant grasp personas message.
burn homosexual.
>Pedophilia is okay when I do it!!!
YALDABAOTH WAS A BLACK MAN
Brainwashing people like the PTs did IS immoral.
Because they should have killed them instead. I'm not talking about the literal who's in Mementos, but rather all the main palace targets who were complicit in destroying the livelihoods of others if not outright murder.
Calm your murder boner down, Castle
Not until I get to impale shadow Sae with it.
>mind break + reprograming + identity death
it would be very hard to play without a constant erection getting in the way
It's amazing how these Persona games that are meant for babies are still able to confuse morons with their surface level story.
enlighten us anon-kun, what are your top sophisticated reads
Persona 4 sucks because all of the "problems" the Investigation Team's members have are bullshit.
>boo hoo I'm a rich little boy stuck out in the boondocks
>I'm going to INHERIT the FAMILY BUSINESS?! I DON'T WANT THAT
>nobody thinks I'm attractive (because I look and act like a dyke)
>what the frick even am I? lol
>I literally cannot separate my workself from my private life and this is somehow other people's fault
>am I gay?
>am I trans?
Well these are relatively grounded problems teenagers deal with, just with supernatural resolutions. Whether or not that's a good thing is subjective, but these are meant to be relatable to the youth without going full rebellious moron.
>Well these are relatively grounded problems teenagers deal with
Which would be fine if they weren't treated like they're the end of the world. I can't take them or the game seriously when the "best friend bro" character is literally just a spoiled brat.
>Which would be fine if they weren't treated like they're the end of the world.
Teens tend to worry about themselves first. And falling prey to your insecurities in this case is an end of the world scenario, which isn't too different from mainline where the collective imaginations of humanity keep causing the apocalypse.
You know maybe if a game still has a bunch of people criticizing it's writing nearly a decade after it's release, the writing is actually just flawed and it's not some misunderstood masterpiece.
Ah yes, all the midwits on Ganker with no free will who just regurgitate what they read online as fact are the authority and their sheer number should tell you what bad writing really is.
I think Persona is moralgay shit and that is inherently lesser than other forms of art
i have never played a persona game i just see threads
I can't believe /pg/ is finally fighting back against these moronic shitposters after so many years.
There's no winning. It's the exact same argument going in circles for almost 400 posts now. The baitposters aren't learning anything, they just repeat the exact same misinformation and lies nonstop and now the tales of vesperia yuri hating shitposter is here too.
Your game's writing being shit doesn't make it "misinformation." Explain why Hifumi didn't apologize and why Joker approved it.
if they had localized adults as boomers nobody would've complained about Ryuji tbh
>shitty corrupted abusive individuals called adults are seething in this very thread over phantom thieves
your distorted desires will be stolen away
Why does that guys design look so off it looks like someone photoshop a youtubsona into the game
Isn't that the exact same plot as Royal?
i love how persona spinoffs obviously get their writing from online forums its like every major complaint people make about persona stories online gets memed into the next game as some villains epic monologue
>Nyarlathotep in Persona 6: ACTUALLY IT'S STILL STATUATORY RAPE IF IT'S A WOMAN
The only thing that matters is consent, Nyarlathotep! Kamoshida used blackmail, which sounds like Black Male, which is pozzed and gay, whereas I sought out my statutory rapist willingly!
It's over. Time for an all out attack!!
*RAPES YOU*
DON'T SLEEP THROUGH CREAMS
THAT CAN COME TRUE
He doesn't because the Phantom Thieves never claim it's wrong for others to change people's hearts but okay when they do it, they just disagree with the reasons for other people changing hearts when they fight someone else who did it.
Yeah, don't worry!
We'll use our powers to CHANGE THE HEARTS of Democrats AND Republicans to vote for whatever the Illuminate require...