how many of you would buy a game like that in this day and age too?
game will be indie of course so please let me know what sucks related to that too 🙂
Hello! what do you want to see in a 2d brawler?
how many of you would buy a game like that in this day and age too?
game will be indie of course so please let me know what sucks related to that too 🙂
I like 3D beat em ups (God Hand, God of War, Sifu) and flat sidescrollers (Viewtiful Joe, Aces Wild, Odin Sphere Leifhtrasir), but these pseudo-3D beat em ups never feel right to me.
>God of War
that's a hack n slash
the ps4 one has unarmed thus it's a beat em up
the reboot; aside from being absolute garbage, is a copy of souls shit: over the shoulder camera and fps controls. that pile of shit is not a hack n slash or a beat em up.
>souls
>over the shoulder
>when you actually see the full character in the center of the screen in Souls games
Souls games only have over-the-shoulder perspective when you're aiming a bow or using binoculars, you stupid porch monkey.
>a copy of souls shit
>fps controls
banal yet deranged parroted opinions. what else can one expect from nuGanker the instant any popular console game is mentioned even in passing?
>the fact that the hitbox of your character model is pointy instead of round is what defines the genre
drink bleach and have a nice day in the mouth, you dumb fricking sack of shit
>that's a hack n slash
No, hack-n-slash = Dynasty Warriors/ Sengoku Basara/ other musou games.
No, guys, GoW, Devil May Cry and other things loke that is "slasher". Hack'n'Slash are Diablo 2 and its derivatives.
Then what genre is Dynasty Warriors, you stupid Black person?
Did that, still not a fan. I'd like it more if the vertical movement speed wasn't like molasses flowing uphill.
It is literally subgenre of a "slasher" genre called "musou" - but a "slasher" it still is. And you are a homosexual.
Yes, it's musou.
No, it's not called "slasher," it's called "hack-n-slash." God Hand, Bayonetta, DMC, and the like are "stylish action" which focus on being as stylish as possible, not just randomly mashing buttons.
And you are a moon cricket.
And gay.
>it's called "hack-n-slash." God Hand, Bayonetta, DMC, and the like are "stylish action" which focus on being as stylish as possible, not just randomly mashing buttons.
It is a modetmrn reinterpretation of this term used by game fricking journalists, BAD ones. Only gay here is you if only for supporting their words.
And it refers to this type of crpgs, that consists entirely of a battle-oriented gameplay instead of embracing more different roleplaying features. So Diablo is hack'n'slash. GoW isn't.
at the same time, what the hell do you call DMC-style games then? I've started to just use "DMC-like" the way people used "Doom clone" instead of "FPS" in the past cuz "character action" is extremely nondescriptive and stupid and "hack n slash" is just a stupid copypaste of an RPG term
"spectacle fighter" coined by Yahtzee of all people who doesn't know shit about these types of games actually works relatively better because the free-form nature of the combat facilitates "spectacle" but it's still not great cuz you could just as easily use it to refer to something far more automated and less skill-based, like the combat in the Arkham games
>DMC-style games then?
"Slasher". Pure incarnation of it. Always was.
nah just referring to the core weapon won't do. King of Dragons are about "slashing" and they're clearly different from DmC. even worse a sword-focused first person game would also be a "slasher".
what if the game doesn't involve slashing weapons at all? what if you're using your fists or a blunt weapon? does DMC stop belonging to its genre when you're using the hand-to-hand weapons?
I do not refer to weapons, i refer to combo-system, where you can perform various moves with various combos, that have various and specific animations and effects a.k.a. "strikes", that are always corresponding to specific attack button pressed during specific order/time during specific combo string, performed with melee weapons in general. I.e. Arkham is not a slasher, because you can't perform various combos, you have only a single attack button, that diesn't change it's attacks without enemy being in different condition rather than player character, and "special strikes", performed at the cost of a special build-up meter (combo meter here specifically). It places Arkham in "almost beatemup" category. Hence 3d action. That specific version is relatively new, so you are free to coin the term "3d stealth beatemup" for it.
I don't see how that changes anything? "slasher" is still vague and non-descriptive. you even have to specify "performed with melee weapons in general" but what if those melee weapons aren't of the slashing variety?
if anything your description is a better case of "striker" than "slasher" but that, again, is vague and non-descriptive
Originally swords were most used weapons for slasher games, that's why this genre had been named slasher. It is still slasher despite weapon type. So it is the "historical" name of a genre. As it already exists, there is no reason to create replacements terms.
Let alone use a term with a completely different meaning within same theme "names of genres and subgenres of videogames" as a replacement, as it creates further chaos and misunderstanding. You remind me of people, who "ironically" attemp to use "hollowlikes" instead of "castleroid" or "metroidvania". You disgust me.
>Slasher
Guess that means DMC and the Mega Man X games where you can play as Zero are in the same genre. Sounds like a moronic take on paper but you said it so it must be true. Does that mean DMC stops being a """slasher""" when you swap weapons to Ifrit/ Beowulf/ other non-bladed weapons?
Here
Sounds like an overly-complicated way to say "beat-em-up." "hack-n-slash" will always be musou and "slasher" will always just be a movie genre.
>like the combat in the Arkham games
Action. 3d-action, specifically. 3d action with stealth elements, if we are speaking about entire game.
With "slasher" genre would be a part of a "3d-action".
rolling in up/down/left/right Punisher significantly ups your speed, though it is something you need to get good at first
>pseudo-3D beat em ups never feel right to me.
I'd recommend Guardian Heroes. Instead of fumbling with moving up and down to line yourself up with enemies, you have three layers to hop between-- background, middle ground, and foreground, with a single press of either shoulder button. No having to frick around with SLOOOOOWLYYYYY moving away from and toward the PoV.
It's also an action RPG, with branching story paths and leveling up stats between stages, and your characters get EXP per hit on an enemy, not per kill (no having to worry about getting the last hit in on a boss for all the EXP). One of Treasure's finest games, it can go up to 4-player for the campaign, and 6-player with the versus mode.
Definitely play the Saturn/ XBLA game, avoid Advance Guardian Heroes like the plague since it abandons the layer-hopping system and just becomes another pseudo-3D beat-em-up.
just play classic Capcom arcade beat-em-ups and the better Konami ones (not Turtles in Time arcade which was made for America and is unfair & shitty; the SNES one is good), get good at them and figure out the subtleties. too many people fricking suck at understanding the basics of the genre and think they can give it a "modern twist"
why did Final Fight make so much money despite its crazy difficulty? if your answer is "cuz the sprites were big" you've already lost
>Instead of fumbling with moving up and down to line yourself up with enemies
spacing is the whole point of beat-em-ups next to crowd control. I never had trouble with the actual execution of it
>spacing is the whole point of beat-em-ups next to crowd control.
I always found it annoying.
either it's something to do with the way your brain views the pseudo-3D space or maybe you just didn't try to really learn it. do some limited-credit runs of Final Fight or Punisher or something and it should click
the layer system was never necessary
Basically the same for me. The only of these type of games I really got into was Turtles in Time. I couldn't tell you why this one worked for me, maybe because it felt less bullshit than other ones or it's simply easier but that one I actually went through multiple times.
that's cuz the SNES version of Turtles in Time actually IS fair, unlike the arcade version. Konami games either designed for America or retooled for America did unfair and shitty things
again play Punisher arcade
a good grab system is essential for beat em ups, stuff like special moves, combos and parries can be cool as long as you get the basics right. also avoid simon says fights and color coded enemies.
the thing about beat-em-ups is that they're like Doom where a lot of people think they're "mindless" and that's the first step to making a bad beat-em-up or a bad (stupid term) "boomer shooter)
classic Doom and good beat-em-ups have unique enemies that synergize well in a way that requires heavy strategizing, both moment-to-moment and for general routing of your entire run, in order to do effective crowd control. and yeah as said grabs/throws are super important (this is the main reason Turtles in Time arcade is shit; the grabs are literally randomized and you have no control over them)
as far as I can tell the basics are crowd control, spacing and good enemy design
1. Make sure it LOOKS cool.
2. Make sure the characters aren't lame.
3. Make it AT LEAST 4 player co-op.
4. Don't punish the players for playing it how THEY want to.
5. Use a theme that hasn't been used before in a beat 'em up.
6. Avoid 80s/90s retroisms. This has been done to death. Don't go for "muh nostalgia".
7. One of the core principals of classic beat 'em up gameplay design that modern developers miss, is that in all the old games the exact number of frames before an enemy recovers after a knockdown is different for each enemy type. This is important to the strategy and "flow" of combat. DO NOT NEGLECT THIS.
(OPTIONAL) 8. Give it lots of interactivity.
(OPTIONAL) 9. Make it ultraviolent.
(OPTIONAL) 10. If you have weapons, make sure they have different functionality instead of just being a different graphic for the same thing. Also don't have them blink out after X number of uses.
>5. Use a theme that hasn't been used before in a beat 'em up.
I should add to this: DON'T MAKE IT "LE WACKY XD". That shit doesn't sell except to basement dwelling neckbeard homosexuals. Make it something that a normal person would consider cool. And that means NOT goofy shit.
hey there. 10 is interesting. what should the weapons do instead of blinking out after X number of uses? should they just not break?
Punisher is a good example of a game where you can save weapons for different screens. my initial instinct in level 2 was to immediately take the flamethrower & go to town on the group you fight right before the boss but it makes for way more consistent runs to just let it stay there and use it for the boss
In Double Dragon (arcade version) weapons never disappear. Same goes for River City Ransom (NES). Play those games to see how this can be implemented in practice.
Make the beat em up about a pizza conspiracy and I'll buy it. Like The pizza Kid
TMNT3 is an was good enough for me.
If a game will manage to be a pure clone (like Blazing Chrome is a clone of Contra Hard Corps) with cool characters, cool enemies, cool setting (look at the settings made during 80s and 90s), is not ugly looking and does not contain modern ideologies - i'm in. Mind you, "Mother Russia Bleeds" is ugly as sin, so be VERY careful which sprites you will use for inspiration/reference. Soundtrack is also very important - it should be of one of suitable music genres, clean and sharp, like in old games (TMNT 3, Streets of Rage 1-3 etc), so be sure to be a good (preferably professional with a lot of experience) composer or to hire one. Game should look, sound and feel good - "feel" could be recreated by copying an old game, "look" has to be designed anew, but old rerlferences will help, "sound" also has to be composed anew, and, as with "look", you (or whoever will do it) have to understand, how it was fone before.
But that was about a game i would buy with 90-95 percent chance. Of course, nobody prevents you from experimenting as, for example, Castle Crashers did.
fight`n`rage had cpu teammates
so i could pretend i have friends
Yes, this. While many old beatemups expected people to have friends and, due to limitations, did not contain bot logic for player characters, today many friends rarely play something together fir a long time - hence mamy games either make matchmaking or short-timed temporary coop like Souls. For a game, where several players could play, adding bots (even if intentionally weak and not really clever) will help a lot to feel teamplay. Many games lack this. I, for example, had always wanted to have full-time bots in Warframe (not spectres), in many cases players want only to grind with gamebreaking tactics rather than play by the rules. The game is actually shooter/slasher/rpg, but unless i play alone, it turns into boring grindfest "by current meta", which, while is not as critical in normal missions, affects special team-oriented missions like that flying gunship in space. I have dropped Warframe for some different reasons after roughly 5000 hours of gameplay, but bot teammates (with some basic command system like "come to me/fight on your own/protect my back" would be an incredibly good feature.
It's a simple formula, just take a genuine approach to it and avoid goofy self aware irony at all costs
Obviously you need a good elevator stage. Every beat 'em up should have a part where you ride a really big elevator and guys jump onto the elevator
Do NOT go the Kunio/River City trap of adding RPG shit. I should not have to eat a thousand stat increasing burgers for my punches to deal more than a pixel of damage.
belt scrollers should be short, for god's sake
I played shredder revenge with a friend and at first we had a good nostalgia and all but game is too fricking long for this genre, we got so bored
Minimum 3 characters, preferably 4.
>the balanced stats character
>the speedy one
>the high power usually grappler type
>4th is the wild card type, something unique, usually low power but good range?
4 players online co-op is mandatory. If you don't have online co-op you already fricked up.
Good variety of enemies, good variety of random weapons.
Keep player move sets flexible and useful. No one likes badly designed moves, of course. Super moves that are invulnerable are a must. Make them cost something, preferably a meter that's built up via beating up enemies instead of shit like costing health or limited use power ups.
Oh, and bosses should be unlocked as playable when you beat them. Because that shit is cool.
>4 players online co-op is mandatory. If you don't have online co-op you already fricked up.
that sounds like it would require extra balancing for 1, 2, 3 and 4 players and leave a lot of room for poor design. Fight n' Rage only has 3 players. Final Vendetta has 2. some classics are just 2 player and they're still good. are Punisher, Final Fight & Die Hard Arcade "frick-ups"?
I love Spikeout but the fact that it doesn't have proper balancing for 1 to 4 players makes it one of the hardest beat-em-ups in the world with 1 player
the contrarian in me wants to say "make a 1 player game" cuz the fun of just mastering these games on your own is vastly underrated but nah it's probably best to have at least 2
make it intuitive when enemy is recovering. you obviously can't keep stunlocking enemies forever but in most beat em ups they just suddenly recover and become invincible while in middle of getting their ass kicked to hit you back.
>have a move to hit enemies on the ground
>don't have super moves use health
>allow players to vault off enemies that are grabbed
>put the screen clearing power up in a spot worth a shit where it kills more than 3 enemies
>have a lot of interactive objects in levels to make them feel unique
I honestly just want to see MORE 2D beat-em-up style games, OP. No matter what's included it's a genre that I love and just want more of really. Other than that I can tell you that online co-op is a must.
Also include at least one cute kid type character that's speed focused with low health.
>kid type character that's speed focused with low health.
Only Black folk with stolen skateboards are left in stock.
As a Skate main when I was 10 and someone who enjoyed The Boondocks, I will humbly accept.
include sexy kemono character(s)
Would Yellow Iris from Battle Circuit count?
Pink Ostrich is better because she is an actual, real animal. Sadly, she is also the hardest.
I remember trying to play Pink Ostrich and being terrible, so I ran back to Cyber Blue like a chump while my friend played Captain Silver and switched between him and Yellow Iris.
You need to make use of her special aireal moves.
Jump > Up + Jump lets you fly.
From there, attack fires off a very powerful attack, but it's risky because of it's long animation.
Look at Fight'n'Rage and Streets of Rage 4, understand what made them work.
Look at Mother Russia Bleeds and TMNT Shredder's Revenge and understand why they are shallow and are only worth one playthroughco-op playthrough.
there are still things you can learn from old-ass Capcom games though. good autistic analysis: https://twitter.com/boghogooo/status/1758383270843310494
I don't have a lot with experience with Capcom arcade beat'em ups sadly.
My point mostly was that people even on this fricking board praise garbage like Mother Russia Bleeds and make Shredder's Revenge look better than it actually is.
my personal experience is that people go out of their way to not think about beat-em-up mechanics at all. I tried to explain to a certain streamer I won't name why Turtles in Time arcade is inferior to the SNES version, just pointing out throws are randomized, and was met with a series of "buuuuh?? wuuuuh!?!?!!?!?" responses
youtubers regularly go "lol what a mindless game, no strategy, you just mash" as they're completely getting their shit ruined even by easy games
>what do you want to see in a 2d brawler / beat em up?
Violence. Just raw depiction of violence.
Speaking of Battle Circuit, I'll post some other Arcade beat-em-ups that I liked. If I can think of them.
Shadow over Mystara was a really good one. It had cool spells and branching paths that lead to different stages, and hidden treasure rooms to access. Oh and a shop where you could buy stuff between each stage. Good stuff.
Damn I forgot my image. Shadows over Mystara looked great. There was another D&D Beat em up before it, Tower of... something. It wasn't as good. But it was okay.
Fricking HARD
Really fun and badass
Great game. Hard, but you can git gud at it and feel like a pro.
Beautiful game.
One of the best
Another great one.
Warriors of Fate was another really fun one I played. Emulated actually. Same with Battle Circuit and some others.
I liked being able to get on horseback and use a different moveset. 2D beat em ups with vehicles you can get are often a fun time. Speaking of which, OG Golden Axe had something similar as well.
double dragon 2 (nes) is still the best
Another fun Capcom arcade beat em up was Knights of the Round. It also had horses you could commandeer I think. One thing I remember from this one, is that you could find items to upgrade your character as you went through the stages, gaining better looking armor and weapons as the game progressed. That was cool. But it wasn't shared between everyone so one person could steal them all lol
The entire genre just isn't as fun outside of the arcade scene. Most of these nostalgia bait games don't get my interest at all.
maybe you're playing shit games that miss the point of what makes the good arcade games, well, good. you wouldn't have RE4 without arcade beat-em-up mechanics. Mikami was hugely inspired by games like Final Fight.
I mentioned Battle Circuit before but it deserves another mention. It was very weird, but a lot of fun. Emulated it and played it online with some bros over ventrilo years and years ago. Good times.
I'd be remiss if I didn't mention Alien vs. Predator arcade. One of the few I actually got to play AT an arcade with my friends in person. That and the Simpsons one.
I liked the way it did its story cutscenes as introductions to the next stage. The entire presentation of this one was really top tier. It pulled you in. To this day outside of the first two movies it's the only entry in the Predator franchise I have any respect for.
the global version of the Simpsons game based on the "rebalanced ;)" US version is unfair dog shit. the differences between the Japanese version and the US one are insane https://tcrf.net/The_Simpsons_(Arcade)#Gameplay
I vaguely recall hearing about this. Fricking quarter munching bastards. I still had fun playing it though, me and my cousin even came really close to actually beating it once at the mall arcade we'd go to. But we ran outta time.
I don't really remember the gameplay of it all that well. It's been the longest since I played this one cause I've never emulated it.
If you can, try to incorprate the combo system into the gameplay somehow rather being just a big number. Foul Play did it well.
Also, maybe give each character more special attack options.
have special moves executed with fighting motion inputs similar to some of the later capcom beat em ups like final fight 3.
There were a lot of console beat-em-ups I liked. To name a bunch that come to mind: Comix Zone, Maximum Carnage, Altered Beast, Golden Axe, Streets of Rage, Turtles in Time, Battle Toads, Double Dragon, etc. Some of them didn't do anything special but all were fun at the time. Modern audiences would probably expect more I suppose.
Comix Zone had a neat premise and unique presentation. Golden Axe music still makes me nostalgic. Love it when that heroic part kicks in.
Since when Comix Zone is a beatemup?
It wasn't? Sure felt like one to me at the time. Guess I'm misremembering that one then, my bad
I'll just list 5 of my ideal 2D beat-em-up components:
1. Full campaign length from start to finish is no longer than 40 minutes (and before you cry about the need for more content, look at point number 2 below). Turtles in Time takes 20-35 minutes to 1CC. It's the complete opposite of Shredder's Revenge or Streets of Rage 4, both of which take 90 minutes to 1CC and are far too long and end up dragging and losing steam. I really don't understand why modern BEUs feel the need to make their games super long.
2. Though a full run should never take more than 40 minutes, you should be allowed to freely pick your levels. So it shouldn't just be the same set of 7-8 levels every time. You should have like 3-4 choices for each level, and with the player being allowed to tackle levels in any order he chooses. This makes repeated playthroughs varied for every player. It also adds an element of strategy when you choose your routing, which I'll explain further in point number 3 below. The levels you choose and the order you do the levels in affects everything from enemy spawns, enemy power and aggression and so on, sort of like a Psikyo game. Something that I think would also be cool is Easy and Hard routes for each level (sort of like that game called The Gladiator), with players being given score bonuses for picking the Hard routes.
(Cont'd)...
3. To incentivize players to not just credit feed and then drop the game before 2 hours is over, make it so that the only content that is available at the start of the game is just a handful of levels. Put a million carrots on a million sticks by having like 80 percent of the game be locked behind unlockable achievements that require skill (not grinding!) to unlock. You want to unlock more levels? Then 1CC the default levels we provided you at the start of the game. Want to unlock these cool costumes? Beat at least 2-3 levels without taking a single hit of damage. Alternatively, clear these very difficult but short challenge missions and trials to prove to us that you actually know how to play the game. You want to unlock this cool new character? Then 1CC a specific level route we've curated. See where I'm getting at?
4. A proper scoring system, with their own unlockable rewards and with leaderboards where players can download replay files. Needless to say, these leaderboards should be carefully monitored to prevent cheated runs from being posted. The devs should have their own secret software they use to detect cheating and tampered runs.
5. Extensive training mode options like in shmups and fighting games. Allow players to command enemies to do specific moves so that players can learn how to dodge or parry or counter them or whatever.
I still have a ton more ideal components, but I'll just keep it to these for this thread. If I went on any longer I'd be making like 6-7 posts reaching the 2,000 character limit.
>locking content behind 1cc or, even worse, no damage
I will never buy this game. At least put it behind score limits. You might personally prefer no-damage optional challenges in other games, but i consider them to be very obnoxious, like "hardcore" permadeath in a games not suitable for that - it presses on your nerves anf forces you to play defensively rather than getting fun.
you arent forced to complete these unless you want to 100% the game usually though right? is that still bad?
You aren't forced to search for glasses in SotN and just kill Richter, essentially locking yourself from second half of the game, several bosses and true ending, but it is okay, right? No, it is not okay. If i am forced to do irritating shit to get to a huge chunk of the game (let alone to get an access to 80% of the game), it is not a good game. Exploring in SotN is fun. Doing "one-hit-and-restart" is irritating. Maxing out score pits less stress and makes you (if made properly) to use various stuff instead of "meta" safest strategy. This COULD be fun if done right.
if the game is 40 minutes would you pay $20 or more for it though? or are you thinking something that is $10?
I'd pay 30 or 40. The type of content I proposed (a tight 30-40 minute full 1CC campaign with tons of level and routing choices) is worth more money in my eyes than a 90 minute 1CC campaign like Shredder's Revenge that just drags and loses steam. One of my favorite games, Ghouls N' Ghosts, takes about 15 minutes to complete a single loop, with a full 2 loop run taking 30 minutes. If that game came out today, I'd still pay 30-40 bucks if it charged that much.
I don't think it's unreasonable, considering that getting a 1CC is what you are (or should be) aiming for anyway. And no damage is also a feasible longer-term goal, provided the game is well designed in its encounters and mechanics and not just "carelessly throw a billion enemies in a room with zero thought and let the player figure out ways to beat them". Still, I'm open to making the unlock requirements be something else that isn't no damage, like maybe getting a 99 hit combo on each boss or something like that.
Shredders Revenge already exists.
Castle Crashers was also pretty fun to play with friends, as far as newer beat-em-up style games go. Same with Shredder's Revenge honestly, not sure how much hate that one gets. But really I just wish there were more.
Not sure if games like Lost Castle or Full Metal Furies count or not, but they were fun too. There are some I never got to play, like Dragon's Crown and Scott Pilgrim vs. the World. Always really wanted to try Dragon's Crown
add sexy girls with titty jiggle animation and clothing destruction mechanics. also a stage where you ride jet skis and enemies are on speed boats.
>a stage where you ride jet skis and enemies are on speed boats
Vehicle stages can be fun if done right but goddamn can they be a pain in the ass with too many hazards racing across the screen
Don't forget having good songs.
What graphic style are you using, btw?
YES. Good music really is a must. Any game that skimps on that aspect is an immediate red flag for me. Regardless of what style you're going for, make it pop, make it hype.