Hey everyone, I'm developing a card game based on the summon rule, and I'd love to hear your thoughts. Any ideas on how to improve it or avoid issues similar to those encountered in YGO? Since it's digital, we can explore features unique to digital platforms. Any suggestions?
bump
Sounds like you haven't even figured out what you want the game to be yet beyond "X thing but more". I've never heard of a game by the name "the summon rule" nor on goggle so that doesn't help.
What exact flaws are you trying to avoid? I've got a feeling you don't actually know what flaws there are to be avoided.
I'd recommend elaborating or this thread is going nowhere except page 10.
Oh okay lemme explain. The summon rule is the rule of sacrificing creatures (Not a ative speaking english). And besides that since the game is digital, I decided to put the effects and magics using a type of "mana" that go higher every turn. Like, every turn you play, you get one more point of mana to spend on magic you have on hand.
The flaws I want to avoid is havin a game too rushed. I also need to avoid the fact that when you lose your monster, you pretty much screwed since you ha e no time to build another strategy to fight since you have no more space to summon other creatures.
I made the thread because I know there are many YGO players here who could tell me the problems that happened with the game since they evolve from this basic concept to...whatever that madness the game is today.
I'm not trying to be a dick but you're just too much of an ESL for me to figure out what the hell you're trying to explain.
>to summon a monster, you need to sacrifice others like YGO
>every turn you got one mana to use in spells (the mana is separated)
>people here have been palying YGO for ages and you know what types of pitfalls I can get into using the gameknowledge as a way to avoid the same mistakes
>since I remember, one of the flaws is that you have no comeback against your opponent when you monsters get killed, you have no chance to come back and put another good monster using sacrifices since you are screwedby monters disavantage. So I would need a wat to circumvent that
The mana/resource system you're describing is a "curve" (for the lack of a better term).
I'm going to assume you're doing the standard start at 1 or 2 on turn 1 and then get +1 each turn.
While it gives the illusion of pacing and "more turns=good game", it basically means each player plays solitaire for the first few turns of the game. It's an artificial positive, those turns don't have anything interesting or engaging to justify the inflated turn count or playtime.
Consider starting at more than basically no mana. Allowing players to make meaningful turns earlier in the game. IE if you started with more than a few mana you could play several smaller costed cards or one larger cost card. This also plays into the system you outline where you need to tribute summon. Having the extra mana at the start of the game lets you actually play those tribute monsters more viably.
A problem with early yugioh (and for basically the game's entire lifetime) is that tribute monsters suck. You get 1 normal summon per turn so it's a pretty extreme investment in a core mechanics resource way. On top of that you're going -1 in card economy. Then the card is 2-for-1 deal if removed making it too risky.
The above post also goes over the issues.
So to address these concerns you need to
>mitigate the upfront card economy loss
>make the mechanic not eat up too much of a valuble resource to not discourage using the mechanic
The thing about having free mana every turn is that you actually can do meaninful strategies in the beggining ( basically what we call aggro). If you ever saw how heartstone of legends of runeterra plays, it's more or less like this (trying to avoid mana screw).
Scryption does it like this, we have a side deck with a 0/1 creature that you can choose to buy in the beggining of your turn. Then you use this card to sacrifice. You choose to buy from your deck of monsters or from this side deck if you need resoucres.
I also think we can do something like this : everytime you get screwed over, like, you get two creatures you control (the strongest) you can get 1 basic monster as a scrap. So you can use it to summon the next one and have a lil bit of hope in the next stages of the game.
do the monsters cost mana? they should cost mana.
then have a rule that sacrificing a monster gives you like 2 mana
then have cards that require you to sacrifice a specific other monster.
look at digimon, it's similar
Why not gain mana for sacrificing cards?
I am gonna do it. I was wondering and testing yesterday. I really think this ia a nice idea.
Also, as I said, in the beggining, it's gonna be a game like YGO or Scryption. So, I wonder if people in this thread will be able to play the game since it's gonna be a small indie game.
Thank you. Also, what do you think about mana banking like in Runeterra?
What if land cards don't so much provide you mana as they permit you, all players, or even opponents to cast different cards? So in essence land is still a resource, just not a hard resource but a soft one. And some lands can benefit the opponent too so like
>This mountain lets any player cast red sorcery and instants at cmc 3 or less
>But only it's owner can cast rock creatures with cmc 4 or more
Hmmm this is a nice concept I think. How does it work for magic? I remember back in the old days magic has something like this in some cards.
I am still thinking about having a different mana for different spells. It can limit the use of spells. I also think trap cards can still be a nice thing to add.
lands suck dick because if you don't draw them you can't play
this is the same thing. if you don't draw the "allowed to play monsters" card you're fricked.
I'm unfamiliar with runeterra, so how about use the mana that turn or it converts to drawing cards. No hand limit.
Well, I think this make the game too chaotic, too many cards in hands, I don't know.
In Runeterra, you can 1 mana per turn, every turn you are able to use 1 mana. (By the turn 5, you have 5 mana to spend every turn for example). But here's the thing. If you don't use the mana, you still have like a "mana bank". That is this mana you can use for instant spells and stuff like this. It's a pretty smart move imo. You always get tense if your opponent has somthing to counter you or not.
>I think this make the game too chaotic, too many cards in hands, I don't know.
well I reckon just consider all the angles
another way to handle your mana intuitively might be each turn you get to draw an additional card than before, for instance
It sounds like you want yugioh without all the extra shit that breaks the fundemental rules that yugioh was based off of. But here is the problem, yugioh's base rules is a ruleset that literally doesn't fricking work in its own game, and every single new set of yugioh is about new ways to break this "rule" because it doesn't fricking work. Have you ever tried playing yugioh as originally intended? I have, it is fricking miserable.
I cannot in good conscious recommend pursuing this mechanic, as it was more or less created on the spot by a story teller to be thematically compelling, not by a game designer to be mechanically compelling.
>Have you ever tried playing yugioh as originally intended? I have, it is fricking miserable.
it's actually ridiculously fun. there was a match where dude was running 3 Pot of Greeds, and he recycled it back into hand several times. he nearly won but he ironically got too greedy, he Fricking Decked Out. frick that was great
Since I saw the game Inscryption, I started to believe in the sacrifice rule again. I want to make YUGIOH but with some mana. Also, I will build a client so anons can play my game and help me to balance, okay? How can I do it? I will have a client in maybe one month. Remember my game will be a digital game, a single player, it has to work as a single player like Pokemon TCG from gameboy or YGO.
Ah shit, you need to try this out right now:
>https://moodytail.itch.io/pocket-crystal-league
You know why here was the first place I came even with my pajeet english? Thank you anon, I wouldn't have found it alone!
I didn't see you mention Inscryption earlier in the thread, once you said it again and I read "mana" I finally remembered this gem of a game. I was addicted to it for a week.
Yes it's a pretty good simple game. I want to make something similar to it, a little bit more complex I think. I want to give the players the dark adventure they never had while trying to give my take on the summon aspect of the game. I hope you can try it and give me feedback about it.
These questions are impossible to answer due to how broadly they are in scope.
I would suggest you actually develop some framework of mechanics and example cards before going further and asking for feedback.
Something tells me that this will never happen.
Let me just get one thing out of the way, are you designing a Collectible Card Game or a Video Game?
Because if it's the former, limiting yourself to digital means that it's already dead. The only successful digital CCGs are piggybacking off of the fact that they are successful IRL before they branched out to digital; people inherently don't really like "only online" card games.
If it's the latter, then you might be able to do something interesting, but it's more of a question for Ganker. There's been a shitload of video games that use the easily understandable card format (Slay the Spire, Monster Train, Marvel Snap, Wizards101, etc) as mechanics. But again, that's not really a question for us fa/tg/uys.
Regardless of which you choose, early YGO (which I believe is what you're trying to emulate) is a grindy game based on using the least amount of tribute summons possible while abusing the powerful spell cards. There's like maybe 3 monsters that anyone bothered to tribute summon, which is part of the reason why YGO moved to more special summoning. People don't like tributing for a powerful monster and then having it killed by a spell card, so that's probably your biggest hurdle.
Yes it is a videogame but it's more like POKEMON and YGO than Slay the Spire. I want people to be able to build decks and maybe open boosters.
I think Inscryption did a pretty good job at creating something using the sacrifice rule. The last part of your post about not bothering to summon monsters is pretty interesting and I think if it exist a way to fix this problem it has to be something at the core of the first cards (maybe a nerf in spell cards?)
Spells weren't the problem. It's the extremely high investment in tribute monsters that was the problem. Even in something like MTG spot removal is cheap.
Strategically it was a no-brainer that going-wide was better than going-tall.
>Tribute summon turn 2 for Monster 2.0
>It has 2500 atk
>Can only hit once
>A single card takes care of it
vs
>Turn 1 normal summon a Monster 1.0
>Turn 2 normal summon a 2nd Monster 1.0
>They each have 1700 atk (2x1700 = 3400 total damage they could do)
>They can hit once each, IE one can hit their guy if they have something and then the 2nd one gets in entirely
>Would require 2 cards to take care of it or one higher impact card to take care of it
The latter makes more sense since it's a lot more damage (2500 vs 3400), a lot less risky, and more flexible.
what if you give every big tribute monster double or triple breaker, like in duel masters? they cannot kill multiple monsters, but they can destroy more shields or lifepoints.
1 tribute monster with double breaker is mathematically equal to the 2 basic monsters you could've played instead but dies to one removal effect
you can design around it but killing your own monsters sucks dick. yugioh gives the hard-to-play monsters a paragraph of effects/negation/on-summon actions. digimon makes all the removal target something "with 4000 or less" to reward big number
You need to post the rules of your game. What's the win condition? Are there any deck building restrictions? Card samples would be good too.
If you want people to open random boosters to play against each other, that's a CCG. And making it only online means you're competing with the big boys, Pokemon and YGO already have online clients and years of momentum. Let's be real here, you aren't making a game better than those, and you aren't going to be able to poach their playerbase. And that's leaving out Hearthstone, MTGO, and whatever else I'm don't bother remembering. Your game will be in that last group if you ever even release it.
Are you going to hire someone to maintain the server space to keep an online only CCG active? Are you going to personally keep an update schedule quick enough to keep player retention after the initial launch? Are you going to figure out how to type in real english so your cards don't have a distinctly ESL appearance? Are you going to hire animators or make everything yourself?
These are a fraction of the questions you should be asking. You seem to barely have an idea what kind of game you want.
To answer your question about YGO, spell cards are a significant reason why Tributes are bad. Any spell that says "destroy target monster" needs to be more expensive than two or more monsters in order to make it worth tributing and exposing yourself. One way you could get around this is to make all removal require tributing, but that still means you can just smack down a shitty mook and kill a useful unit, so again it's not really fair, but it's still better. If you are adamant about the tributing, one way to guarantee that people do it is to make it so only Tributed monsters can attack. It's comically heavy handed, but that would work.
Oh no, it's not online for people play normally. It's a game like YGO and Pokemon from gameboy. You are a lilttle guy, building your deck, open boosters and progressing in the game. Maybe it can have an online multiplayer but nothing fancy, only something silly and low profile with no updates.
I played those games in the past. But still I know people played way more than me and have more knowledge, I am here to get some ideas and talk about rules, sometimes we can get an insight or two to put in the game. I will tst my games with actualy cards by sunday, then I will see more of this problems but still, want to talk and see what anons have to say about this general ideas.
That's interesting. I wanted to play digimon but I don't know people who play it, I will see it on youtube to check the rules.
It sounds like you don't actually have an extensive amount of research done into this by playing many games. You say that you want to avoid YGO's issues but then have no idea what's going on with YGO.
I hate for this to be entirely an attack of character, but it doesn't sound like you're a good candidate for somebody to make a game. There's an easy remedy to this though, PLAY THE GAMES and understand their game theory.
I know a lot of people hate Kohdok, but watch his videos on card games. You can skip the ones that don't apply to your game.
You literally couldn't do worse than Yugioh. I think Konami intentionally designs it to be as awful as possible. Like it's a game to them and literally the only people having fun as yugioh is full of pedoes and glowBlack folk. Atleast on ygopro. Met some ok people on duelbook. The YouTuber scene is God awful though.
Magic has clowns too but yugioh is so much worse. The thing is, Bandai's version of Yugioh could've worked in today's environment. (Pic related) for one they were smart enough to have atk vs def. There wasn't even life points. You counted the stars you accumulated at the end of a match. Wouldn't that be great if you were playing with your girlfriend and kept track of how ahead you were by putting stickers all over each other's faces? No hyper competitive "get good, skill issue". They don't expect Konami to be Tony Stark when it comes to designing. They're the ones making money yet they just shit out another busted fusion or synchro.
Also if you have discord, we should really consider NFTs. I think that's the future of commerce in general. But especially card games. In fact I'm introducing duelbook to the concept NFTs can bring to gaming by this cute caramel dicky wants to do a tournament. So each participant will get a different custom card like an nft with it's own restrictions to deck building but no gay ass banlist which doesn't do anything
>Player one can only use Dinosaurs and Spellcasters
>Player two cannot have any Fire attribute monsters or monsters with 800 or less def.
It promotes deck building and it'll lead to interesting interactions all while making them feel unique. THAT'S how you make a game. Not everyone is going to have fun equally. But if your intent is pure, it'll show. I wanna make a card game too but not to make money. I take design and math very seriously.
Another thing I wanna mention as you mention sacrificing a lot so clearly wanna make a tribute oriented system and emphasize it. Yugioh fricked that up by special summons and didn't even give them huge restrictions. When conditions were met that they could normal summon without tribute, that's different. Notice literally nobody plays those cards. You either spam special summons, or get fricked by stun and can't. Noone will take the plunge into slower decks. This card is a good example. I've played many archetypes. Eldlich, Kashtirta, stun variants, zombie world, flip control is just too fricking slow and always was. And this card does some amazing shit but given how badly yugioh is as far as it's core zeitgeist of playable cards and weird shit like wording and timing. It just doesn't matter.
If you want yugioh but for it not to be isis recruitment, you're going to have to make it a point not to deviate. Konami didn't HAVE to introduce the game as it is. They chose too just as people choose to eat up evil.
I mentioned the nft thing, now imagine big chungus boss monsters had restrictions on what needed to be sacrificed
>A dark attribute monster with 1300 or less atk
Ironically how rituals worked in the manga/early video games. But like another poster said, going big has to be worth the cost and depending on how life works, cost means different things.
To make this simpler and I think that's fricking stupid too the extra 0s on stats, let's say a mediocre monster has 16 atk. If you start at 100 life. That's still only six hits necessary. Now a big boy could be 66 instead. But it's the same problem of how easy is it to remove vs how easy was it to get? Yugioh players b***hed nonstop about dragoon and it is a very OP card as written. But it's brick city. Sword soul on the other hand is dollar store dragoon that isn't quite as flashy but amounts to the same thing but so much easier and they can do it over and over where we dragoon is pretty much a one time deal
So to shorten all my points down
>Bandai actually had a good idea with stars mattering as a win condition. Aiming to have the highest life rather than just not have the lowest. It sends a message too. Things are too fricking competitive when life should be about obtaining not losing.
>If you don't like the star system. I'd consider something like duel master shields but rather than generic shields any 1 damage could break, if the player is hit they roll a percentile dice. So flame swordsman here has a 25% or 1 in 4 chance of killing an opponent with a direct attack. Thus setting up defenses is key. OTKs would be harder to do as you might just roll really well.
>If you don't like that idea either, maybe a sort of built in win condition in each monster. Say Flame Swordsman here, gets to roll a dice or flip a coin if he destroys a Plant or Wind monster. Thus tributing isn't just to get better things, but change your board state where you're not vulnerable to them winning. Sacrifice the plant for a Rock. Maybe Flame Swordsman gets -14 atk against Rocks or something. Flaws and conditions can easily replace mana costs.
I personally, would go with any of these options over life points.
if was thinking about totems similar to your only dinosaurs only <800 def rules. maybe you could boost your base mana by taking on boons and dooms. things like you start with less life for more mana, or you can only use bird monsters but you start with a field spell on your hand that boosts those creatures. maybe you could randomize those bonuses in a party mode and make tournaments around hard totem rules that everybody has to use.
party mode > roll a dice on a random totem table (D20)
tournament mode > every player has to use totem A,B,C
examples for totems:
>nope-card: every player starts with a no-card on the hand. when using this card you can counter any action your opponent does
>fast traps: traps can be activated from hand
>summoning sickness: monsters start in defense mode and can only attack on the next turn
>overextended: every monster that attacked this turn must go into defense
>colleteral damage: monsters that get destroyed in defense mode or get destroyed by trap effects burn lifepoints for every mana level they have times 100
>bottomless graveyard: monsters leave the game completely when they get destroyed and cannot be recovered
>fire carousel: every card you play burns you for 100 damage
>graveyard tax: at the end of the turn you get burned for every card in the graveyard
what if: low level monsters 1-4 are common
high tier monsters with more levels cost tribute
make every destruction spell or trap cost atleast 5 mana, so you don't waste it no weenie monsters and safe it for tributes.
no real game, just brain storming. i want to create my own game, too.
Who would you say is your target audience? I'm bringing out the Gadaffiposting as this is my thinking cap when I'm about to go full based and schizo.
Because it is related to how you were contemplating how to manage resources. Maybe three mana sources with the boons and dooms limiting how much you have of each. The mana colors? Hope, Faith, and Love.
You could market it as a Christian card game. Light and Dark creatures where Light raises those three, Dark lowers them. With in game effects where Dark "tests your faith" by getting more ferocious with higher altitudes or turns you into a depressed nihilist burning your mana. Light redeems the wicked by raising their mana, or punishes the wicked by keeping it low and benefiting from it.
Subtypes for boons and dooms could be the seven sins and virtues. Call it Guardian Angels vs Inner Demons.
nah, i want to go full satanic panic with children summoning scythe wielding goat monsters in their basement, and shouting lighting bolt like some neckbeard larpers. game starts out with 3-5 mana, so you can summon weenie monsters on turn one. for more powerful monsters you need to sacrifice weenies. maybe we give every single weenie a affect like:
>if this monster survives to your next turn, you gain +1 mana.
those mana effects only work with low level chaff. this gives you a reason to play those trash mobs next to big bosses.
big boss monster on the other hand need something impactful to counter the high cost. as some anon said. those big targets get easily destroyed by traps. something like double or triple strike (duel masters) makes them strong. or you give the piercing damage so you cannot turtle defense stall for long. we don't want them to be overpowered. just give them an edge over vanilla low level creeps. what about magician monsters, that lower the cost for spells or pixie elfs from the magic tree that lower the cost for traps?
>make every destruction spell or trap cost atleast 5 mana,
sort of works
need to be careful about actually having interaction though. so if removal is hard to get, there better be a lot of negates or stat lowering or whatever
3 mana per turn, +1 each turn or any kind of gain effect. something like monsters that generate one mana per turn, or sacrificing monster for mana. imagine sacrificing a monster for a bigger boss monster, but you gain mana from the destroyed weenie
2 mana = change from attack to defense
3 mana = card from field back to the hand
4 mana = destruction with limit (like only level 4 and lower, or opponent chooses one of two monsters and destroys it himself)
5 mana = omni destruction without limit
6 mana = destruction + remove from play
you cann take all those effects and add +2 to make it work on ALL opponent cards
so, 7 mana = destroy all enemy monsters
You could do like Duelist of The Roses did just not as strictly. Remember how I said earlier Flame Swordsman has -14 vs Rocks? It could also have +14 vs Plants/Wind.
Stat buffs against specific types are minimally effective though. When they work, they snowball (old Pokemon tcg) but you can't bank on it.
The power level of other effects depends on the game you're running. In Yugioh, card draw is something you would never pass up. People will literally piss away half their deck just to get extra cards. Pokemon doesn't care about card draw. It's such a slow paced action economy of one energy per turn and one attack per turn, it really doesn't make a difference.
He did say he wanted to incorporate a mana system. I'd instead go with an action economy. Card draw would be very valuable (not as much so as in Yugioh but just as Magic) if there's mana. If there's only so many things you can do in a turn like say a 3 action limit. Casting a sorcery is an action, attacking is an action, summoning an action. Card draw stops mattering. If you combine the two and make your mana a bigger number where now everything has different values of how much action it takes up, you have more leg room but also more balancing issues like hearthstone. In a vacuum, "Bandai Flame Swordsman" being a 25/8 beat stick costing 2 mana actions to cast and 1 to attack with that gets the buff against plants and wind and Nerf against rocks, "Konami Flame Swordsman" having the same stat line and costs but now has the effect that can spend an action mana to draw two cards. well now that's a potential asspull and combo ontop of cheap costs.
And older Yugioh cards at least would've said Konami Flame Swordsman if it uses it's draw ability can't attack that turn. Now the go too is "limit once per turn" as if that still doesn't facilitate combos. But Konami is a gambling company ran by the Yakuza. They know a pachinko
>Remember how I said earlier Flame Swordsman has -14 vs Rocks? It could also have +14 vs Plants/Wind. Stat buffs against specific types are minimally effective though.
by stat changes i mean like a card who's only effect is to change another card's stats
early yugioh had fun, tense moments with cards like rush recklessly where players would alter the power of the monsters mid-attack. it's very memorable because it encourages mind games and surprise attacks
i don't really like elemental triangles in card games but they can work. the really annoying thing is if they're not printed on the card. it takes forever to memorize that shit
>Pokemon doesn't care about card draw. It's such a slow paced action economy of one energy per turn and one attack per turn, it really doesn't make a difference.
every deck has at least 4 copies of "draw 6"
>he wanted to incorporate a mana system. I'd instead go with an action economy.
that's effectively the same except everything costs 1 mana
it is certainly simpler. but simpler often gives you less room to actually balance anything. why spend my 1 action to set up when i can spend it to steamroll you right now?
also playing lots of cards in one turn is fun and hard action limits prevent that
Yes, I was thinking about the same thing. But well, I heard Flesh and Blood is doing pretty good with action point and the whole "go again" (light action that basically give you another +1 action then you can combo)
This NFT thing you mentioned is actually pretty wild. I like it. Did you ask if a have discord?
My mind is full of frick. The good frick one.
Yep. You can add my alt SkibidiHookah. My little brother knows more about the marketing aspect of NFTs and actually invests, I just focus on the potentialities. We both got the tisms. He's the history buff/political kind, I'm more of the esoteric religious stuff/engineering and sciences kind lol
>MTG Black person poster is a crypto/NFT scammer
OP if you value your time and money don't buy into a single word this poster shat out. NFT gay shit literally just killed Metazoo not even a few months ago, it isn't going to be to your benefit. This is a scam and this gay is going to rug pull you.
KYS NFT homosexualS
It's okay. Let's keep talking about TCG rules then.
Yes I have been watching him a lot lately. The comments on his videos are also helping me a lot.
>the only people having fun as yugioh is full of pedos
>I'm introducing duelbook to the concept of NFTs can bring to gaming by this cute caramel dicky
What did he mean by this?
This post is a load of shit with the NFT garbage, metazoo was killed by NFT garbage. It also reads like a schizo post.
OP don't waste your time with this gay.
OP can do whatever he wants. Like, I'm not selling him anything. I plan on investing too and it does well to have a team and friends backing you up. You live in a state of lack. Read Neville Goddard.
>Metazoon died cause...
Metazoo died because it forgot what it was about. It capitalized on Pokemon tcg nostalgia. I liked metazoo. I met the only woman I ever loved playing old Pokemon tcg as a pre teen. Instead it became about Reddit memes. Also they took a potentially great concept "cryptids" and instead of researching folklore went with Slenderman. Like, do you know how awesome that could've been to introduce to people grey goo and Roko's Basilisk?
Also the unglued sorta mechanics pretty much meant it could never be more than a party game but they didn't market it like a party game. THAT'S why I bring up NFTs because let's say you wanna make a tangible trading card game with a tournament scene and shit. All the arguments about proxies and crap, you wouldn't need an argument as they can print whatever the frick they want but there's an actual trace to licensed things. And sure we could make money, lots of money, but it was JUST about making money I wouldn't reccomend it. Because people like you shut their brains off to new things. Than when its normalized you'll gaslight me and yourself "oh it was always this way" acting like you didn't talk shit a month ago. I know how your type is. It's sad. You get abused way more than I do and you LIKE IT that's why you like bad games. I don't. I want more out of life. Games that are enjoyable, higher concepts to contemplate, things that remind me of my wife that I mentioned.
Are you a Yugioh player? I'm not even setting you up for an insult. This is to run a thought experiment by you. I'm sure there's an archetype you despise. Runic perhaps? What if there was a Runic guy? You could name him. Go online and see his whole deck list. Even before you begin a game with him it's telegraphed what he's playing
And on the topic of the Runic guy. What if on a tournament level, only that guy could play Runic? You don't need to "draw the out" unless you're specifically against him.
Just as well, you say I'm planning a rug pull. You do realize this would benefit the singles market way more than production right? Wotc and Konami can print their toilet paper cards all day long. What do they care about inflation? If product sells it sells. It's a balancing act of convincing stores to keep them on the shelves but not a hard sell as noone is gonna say no to the big three
Smaller guys have to think differently. And once a card is sold it's out of our hands if they wanna auction it off
NTA, but deck lists will always be telegraphed once a meta forms. Strategies will always solidify in any game giving rise to predictability. This, in turn, leads to players needing to learn what decks are around and tune their strategies to accommodate different matchups. This is the 101 of games across mediums, yugioh, warhammer 40k, starcraft, you name it.
Why bring up your wife and anything around them? What does it have to do with anything?
And cut the "you just don't get it, you're blind and I'm enlightened. You just need to buy Bullshit: The Book and become a schizo like me." The only thing you're manifesting is voices in your head.
Want some actual advice? If you are involved with several things that are considered "a bunch of bullshit/scam" you're likely a fricking moron and the dunning kruger effect is doing doubletime. These are designed to be magnets for a specific type of loser.
Metazoo was effectively killed by NFTbro Steve Aoki. They said the same shit
>I see this game as an investment, I'm just investing in """something I love""" (despite there being literally nothing here)
You want to know why normal people have this preception of you? It's because you NFTgays are the same and sing the same tune over and over.
>Oh yeah that's like that nostalgia thing
>There sure is an untapped market here, let's tap it
>I'M INVESTOOOORING
>WTF why did this thing die? Was it because it was a pile of scams or because it devolved to a bunch of scambros trying to scam other scambros.
>What do I know about the thing I'm investing in? Not much, I just know money. Yeah that's all I ever cared about in the end.
Say what you want about the guy in the video but it goes over the downfall of the game. Spoilers: turns out Steve was the villian all along and it's mostly on him.
?si=0tsk81gGB1TlKaWY
I'll watch the video anyway just to see what it's all about because I do remember seeing metazoo boosters at Target so it's not like they were in the back of card shops. You don't even see card fight vanguard in retail stores. So they had to have fricked up pretty bad
I have great news, they cover why they're in brick and mortar stores in the video.
I cast super polymerization on myself and your mom by discarding your non-existent father to summon sixty nine SEX dragon. The game is already hard enough to get into without bringing *squints* the blockchain into it. With regards to GAINING, you GAIN your whole board via your combo. Building a board is a great feeling as you construct this metaphorical 3d printed gun to shoot your opponent in the face with.
Also, chance-based instant win cons sound like fricking cancer. There's already enough chance in the game with drawing hand traps and board breakers. If you want a defense based deck, plenty of decks like it exist across tiers of decks (see: The Weather, Eldlitch, Runick, etc).
The old PS2 game duelist of the roses had you summon with star chips you gained at start of turn. 4 on your 1st, 3 each turn after. Max 12 cuz that's the highest in yugioh. One summon per turn unless you used a spell or ritual.
Maybe use the digimon gimmick and have it be lower cost to lose a Mon instead of hard summoning?
This is a good strategy, I will try it to see how it goes, I am just afraid maybe the monsters can be too trivial if it's too easy to come and go.
This is an image from google, I am not indian.
>AI image
>nonsensical post
Post hands, pajeet.
>Avoid issues from yugioh
That is 100% a fault of the card effects rather than the base mechanics. Konami's chimpmanzees got tired of trying to write Shakespeare and decided instead to fling their shit everywhere and the current state of the game reflects that.
If you have yugioh style special summoning, tie conditions to them if they aren't summoned by game mechanics.
If you write monsters that cheat themselves out for free, don't give them overtly powerful effects. Pankratops should be the absolute most that they can do if they summon themselves with zero cost.
If you have floating effects, make sure they're of an appropriate power level and don't gain too much advantage.
If you have something akin to Link Monsters, take note of the fact that they not only feature most of the ED monsters on the banlist, but that most of them have the common trait of generating advantage for free by summoning monsters from the Deck or your GY so they can link climb
Basically, don't write effects like a damn moron
Another thing is xenolocking. Some people don't like the fact that certain cards restrict you to certain traits (type, attribute, ED type), but respectfully that's what kept the game in check for the longest time. You don't need to be overtly restrictive with that sort of thing, you can just make certain effects bottleneck you. A big problem with the current format is that snake-eye lets you link climb into anything that you want because the only lock they have is Promethean Princess, who only bottlenecks you while it's on the field. Tearlaments had a similar problem at full power, because they did not lock you at all.
I would like to add onto what you've laid out. Konami doesn't seem to restrict cards very well. There's lots they could do. A field spell like Orichalcos will destroy your special summoned monsters, and prevent further special summons. You could also do like, a powerful beat stick that 'cheats' onto the field might prevent you from drawing cards from your deck, its entire shtick might JUST be special summoning from the deck, and no further drawing, your deck is locked down in earnest. There's a lot that can be done. I've seen a card that special summons, and after the turn is over it's destroyed.
I think Konami had a major problem with foresight. They introduced/introduce mechanics that are blatantly superior than previous things, and then the older stuff never sees play again. Does anyone even fusion summon anymore? What if the effects of greater polymerization were more common, so they can't be negated when summoned, and they are prevented from being destroyed by card effects once a turn?
There's definitely ways to tackle the entire overarching design of Yu-Gi-Oh by looking at the bigger picture it paints.
>Does anyone even fusion summon anymore?
The strongest deck in the history of the game was a Fusion deck. Branded Despia is a Fusion deck that sees high level tournament play.
The More You Know, thanks for the heads up bro.
I'm guessing it's because it has its own polymerization cards, lol.
No one uses old dusty poly anymore..
Some Tearlament builds ran King of the Swamp and Polymerization. Some Branded builds run Polymerization.
Polymerization itself is still relevant since you can search it off of Swamp King, who enables a lot of different fusion options since it's a fusion substitute monster, as well as other perks like giving Guardian Chimera protection. OG Polymerization is still one of the weaker ways to do it, but it still sees play. In my Witchcrafter deck I'll run 2 copies of it alongside Swamp King since it lets me go into Millennium-Eyes Restrict or just fusion summon their archetypal monster, though WC isn't exactly a meta-relevant deck.
But yes, people still fusion summon a lot. The materials for them have gotten more lax over the years so that they typically don't require specifically named monsters, in addition to cards that support specifically named materials like Fusion Deployment. Look up some Branded setups. Branded/Chimera is a pretty fun setup.
>The materials for them have gotten more lax over the years so that they typically don't require specifically named monsters
Konami really should retrain older still pretty good fusion cards so they no long require specfic monsters at all. Using specific cards to poly was a terrible idea from the start, don't you agree?
Yes and no.
Yes, in that requiring 2 or more specifically named materials just stinks. It was a bad design decision from the start, and the fact that nobody really ran Fusions back in the day unless they could cheat them out is a testament to the fact.
No, in that using 1 specifically named material is fine, because there's cards that specifically work with stuff like that these days. Fusion Deployment in particular will crap out the material from your deck, and stuff like Swamp King can serve as substitute for 1 specifically named monster (all other materials must be correct).
they already did that in 2002 with yugioh forbidden memories and it was perfect. just combine types and attributes. no named materials. it was just fine. in the same year they released dark duel stories which made effect monsters risky by restricting them to attack mode with weak stats. perfectly balanced. you wanted effects? you had to risk your lifepoints for that.
I partially agreed with this too. It's not like Konami didn't have a hand in making those video games. Why the frick even have synchros or xyzs? You could do the same thing with fusions and rituals with level requirements but generic level monsters not typing.
Links? Never needed to be a thing if they didn't frick up with all the other extra-deck monsters to begin with. I did like when Linking was essentially mandatory in MR4 where otherwise you could only have one extra deck monster crammed in the link zone. You know why Konami got rid of that? Because it gave rogue decks too many options. The guys complaining about it glowed harder than some guy at a protest trying to sell you grenades
The way all these additional extra deck summons came about makes me sad.
>Why the frick even have synchros or xyzs? You could do the same thing with fusions and rituals with level requirements but generic level monsters not typing.
sort of true but synchros and xyzs are significantly different enough that it's worth making them a new card type. it also allows you to have effects that specify "synchros" instead of "a fusion monster that was fusion summoned by tributing a tuner and some number of non-tuner monsters who's levels sum to the level of the fusion monster"
> I did like when Linking was essentially mandatory in MR4 where otherwise you could only have one extra deck monster crammed in the link zone. You know why Konami got rid of that?
because it was a cheap money-making ploy to make old decks worthless so links could sell better, and the yugioh audience wants to be able to use a 20 year old blue eyes deck with zero modifications
>Because it gave rogue decks too many options
it explicitly gives you fewer options
Yes, that's why I created the thread. I think you make special summons have more protection could be good. Like for example, you have two little shields drawn in your card. You will need two effects to kill a special summon. Or maybe just destroy creatures be something pretty rare.
Another banger idea I'll share with you bro... Thac0 tables for monsters.
On the card they just have stat lines like this making saving throws vs other monsters. Roll better, you destroy that monster. Could be any kinda dice but I'd personally go with a d20 or d100.
What? But this isn't rely too much on luck? This sounds more like an RPG thing.
Several layers of luck which in itself becomes a strategy.
Like let's say subterror behemoth. A reptile type.
>Vs Aqua/Spellcasters 3+
>Vs Beast-Warriors/Warriors 14+
We see that it's obviously more designed to be a Lovecraftian horror that can eat through dark magician decks, toads, especially marincess which is both aqua and spellcaster...
Would suck against zoodiacs though. And you didn't need all the effects to determine meta relevancy.
My game is a type of lovecraftian horror but I think you are right about one thing. This would fit better in a boardgame.
I can see how OP might not want something this with dice rolls and the like. Something people might not recognize about Yugioh is that it's practically a Tabletop RPG, that exclusively plays through cards. The D&D Player's hand guide, but distributed across cards as relevant.
I'm alone in this, but I think Yugioh is at its best when it's made out to be the board game it is; such as in Speed Duel product sets. It's very fun and thematic, using a skill card that feels like it could have just been the way the cards were printed or errata'd from the get-go.
I hate seeing the fun of a GAME get optimized right on out of it.
I think we can all agree with this. I'm actually quite shocked to see so many self-aware of how Yugioh is everything NOT TO DO in a card game.
Really before anything else, you have to ask yourself
>Would I have fun playing AGAINST this?
Because you're gonna see it. It's easy to not care when you're winning, but when you don't it shouldn't feel cheap or what I get more pissed about, disrespectful to my time and effort. Like, I don't wanna sit there watching them do loops. Just bring out a busted monster and save us both time. If I have an answer to it good, if I don't oh well. But the fact as Yugioh is today, it is not only REQUIRED to manually do every Frick dumb step, but these guys are so competitive because of sunken cost fallacy they'll look for any excuse like "you missed timing" or "you have to say when not just assume it triggers" it's all frankly as israeli as pol seems to think the external elites are. They're not the ones pinching every little detail, and how is that fun? And I've said it to players
>If you think you're an athlete, email Konami right now Tom Brady and get that bread.
He did say too he wants his game to be dark soulsish. So like death metal album looking. That gives us a foundation of the sorta players you can expect. Metal heads are competitive. They're gonna be stoners. They just wanna shitpost. I can relate. The sorta mechanics that shitpost in Yugioh are things like morphing jar FTK. Which immediately dies to pretty much any hand trap.
i ask you the question: would it be fun to fight an opponent, who sarcrifices 3 of his monsters to summon a god? because that for me is peak yu-gi-oh! anything with special and floog gate and floating and link climbing and restoring something from the grave for no cost is stupid
>they'll look for any excuse like "you missed timing"
That one isn't an excuse. It's literally written in the rules that certain effects just do not work at certain timings. "When" effects must be the last thing to happen to go off or they fizzle BY DESIGN at this point. It's hard-coded into the video games and simulators because it's an unintuitive but hard rule of the game. That isn't an angle shoot. If they let you try to force through an effect that missed timing, then you cheated. This isn't the same as you not being clear with triggers. Speaking of, the reason you have to be clear with triggers is because the game has gotten so granular and the steps, phases, and when you attempt to activate an effect really matters sometimes. Tearlament format was a clear example of this because the wide array of quick effects that could activate at nearly any time and the interplay between them means it's a game of inches where your timing wins or loses you the game. A single interaction going to chain link 10 wasn't that uncommon. While divisive, there were quite a few people that liked that format because it was skill-intensive (if you were playing Tearlament) and felt like both a puzzle and a knife fight.
he's talking about when the opponent silently slaps down 8 cards and when you ash blossom the important one he goes "missed timing lol"
timing is a vital part of the game which is why you need to verbally announce each action to allow a response
call a judge over
if you want your game to be fair you need to restrict effect monsters. nobody in yugioh or magic plays vanilla monsters. everybody only plays effect monsters. the more effects on one a card the better. make effect cards one of a kind, or limit the maximum number in the deck. something like this :
>you can only have 5 effect monsters in the deck and all those monsters must be unique
>effect monsters are all tribute monsters with horrible stats
>vanilla monsters without any effect are super strong in comparision.
with that you can prevent situations like summoned skull vs jinzo. jinzo had 100 attack points less, but his effect was super overpowered.
>make effect cards one of a kind, or limit the maximum number in the deck
Thats a good idea. Also every game became too wordy to handle after some times, effects are cool but they need to be something special.
>Any ideas on how to improve it or avoid issues similar to those encountered in YGO?
The most broken shit in YGO is based around summoning large quantities of monsters back to back. This card in particular is a gamebreaker in the videogames.
This is broken af. Every deck has it in the videogames.