How can she be UU in Gen 5 but OU in every other gen. especially when megas and dynamaxed and terstilisation exists in new games bring the power creep up more..
What kind of scam are smoggies running here?
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the defog buff and release of static was good
Imagine this bird will never be molested by Tyranitar again.
> Tyranitar is a very good check to Zapdos, as it takes minimal damage from its moves and threatens it out with Rock Blast or Stone Edge.
btfo rarely used rock pokemon
>tyranitar
>rarely used
BTFO
Taurosbros is our time to shine again!
BW is deeply different than ORAS. Permasand means cancer stuff like Suicune and Zapdos aren't durable enough and there is only 1 decent spinner, Excadrill, that still loses to common SR setters anyway (lando, chomp, even loses to ferrothorn if it hits 2 power whips etc), therefore Stealth rock is almost always up.
I'm not gonna lie though Zapdos while not OU by usage still was pretty decent for a while in rain teams, where it abused pressure by spamming substitute and ofc thunders. Basically you could use it against ferrothorn to trade 3 layers of spikes for 1 or 2 guaranteed kills which is good because rain teams could always spin everything away with tentacruel later.
Zapdos itself also has very decent defensive qualities, being one of the like 4 mons that can check Tornadus, while also being immune to Ground and having a really strong hidden power ice.
It fell off due to a variety of factors: the rain teams that were able to use zapdos usually had some troubles against stuff like reuniclus, also extremely fat sand teams with protect gliscor, ice beam gastrodon, or those with sdef protect excadrill can dance around it without many problems till it loses all its hidden power PPs, other than having the basic counterplay of sending tyranitar in to delete zapdos' leftovers recovery.
Thundurus-T is just more reliable at breaking defensive cores even though it can't check Tornadus due to its shitty sdef.
Also we never got the Dream World ability, which was Lightningrod at that time, which maybe could have had interesting applications
I think Zapdos was just overshadowed.
It was an awkward period where Zapdos had to compete with Thundurus, but it didn't have the tools it would get in gen 6 (namely Defog and Static).
It really wasn't bad in gen 5, though. Just outclassed in a powercreep-heavy generation. And unlike gen 9, which is even power powercreep-heavy, Zapdos matched up poorly against gen 5's top threats.
offensive sets were powercrept by this point and defog + chip nerfs hadn't yet made defensive sets good. and like the other anon said, this was the last gen of tyranitar's reign and everything weak to him was an immediate liability
Because it was outclassed by a washing machine. Gen 6 nerfed weather and buffed Defog so it could compete again
It was mogged hard by Rotom-Wash and Thundurus back then. Then it kept getting better while others got worse. Defog was buffed, it gained Static (underrated ability for a defensive mon), it gained Hurricane, Heavy Duty Boots helped it tremendously.
the real reason? It can handle Gen 6 Bisharp
Defog was buffed
Static was released
If Zapdos didn’t make it, then how did Jolteon not fall all the way to RU.
Jolteon's movepool has remained barren while other Electric types had their movepools increased (Manectric getting Overheat, Raikou getting Scald)
I asked why was jolteon OU in gen 5?
It was only there because low skilled players used it just enough to keep it in OU despite it being hot garbage there. It got completely removed from the viability rankings for OU because it's not even worthy of D-tier. Its Smogon write up calls it a useless shitmon that's only OU because the tier is locked.
If Gen 5 had its tiers unlocked like Gen 3 did, Jolteon would fall to UU, possibly RU.
Jolteon has received nothing but moveset nerfs since Gen 5. Signal Beam is gone, it lost Hidden Power, and now all it can do is Volt Switch, Thunderbolt, and Shadow Ball. It has nothing else.
It gained a boosting move due to Legends and SV giving the Eeveelutions Calm Mind
Jolteon doesn't even have the stats to boost up safely. That's why even with Calm Mind and Regieleki coverage it's still NU alongside such competitive monsters as Blissey, Cacturne, Articuno, Hattrem, Rotom, Qwilfish, Sneasel-H, Shiturott, Veluza, and fricking VIVILLON.
>Jolteon is still only as good as shitmons like Mesprit and Scyther
Oh no no no
Jolteon is OU in gen 5 for the same reason Donphan is. Or why Electivire is OU in gen 4.
Shitters kept thinking it was better than it is and kept its usage higher than it deserved.
fanfic meta
Hey verlisify
he really lives rent free in your head huh? keep seething smogonBlack person
You got Smogon living in your head rent free.
I'm laughing it only takes two words to set people like you off.
>"I'm laughing", xhe said with tears welling up in xher eyes.
>He says, after crying about a single word
seek therapy for your mental illness
btw stop playing and enjoying nuzlockes because fanfic playstyle CRINJO
>that fricking sprite
>people will still somehow argue gen 5 looks good
>durr why does an animated sprite look bad frozen mid animation
There are fricktons of games with animated sprites that look fine mid animation. Get better standards.
Get better material.
Still looks better than its model in Gen 6+
That model is what pulled it out of UU, show some respect.
Defog is what pulled it out of UU.
>proceeds to post an image that drastically looks better than the one in the OP
what did she mean by this
It looks worse actually.
who cares about smogon these days, only gays who like banned shit, baka go play vgc op
>Go play a worse format
Ehm... no.
Why are smogon players against the same strong mons being run in tournaments when the objective is to win? They want to have a game that is truly competitive but also has randomness which is impossible to achieve because they're at opposing ends. By banning different strategies like set-up, OHKO, and evasion you're creating a metagame not too dissimilar to that image where only hyper offensive mons are played. In competitive fighting games it's inevitable that strong characters are played often because they have the most advantage. In VGC you see countless different strategies that you would never see on smogon (because they're banned).
Because seeing actual Pokemon diversity is much more interesting. The difference between scarf, leftovers, and band Lando isn't as interesting as seeing a less viable Pokemon put in work. It's much more fun seeing ~100 Pokemon that can show up than ~30.
Isn't it counterproductive to ban mons and strategies that would allow more pokemon to be viable?
No, because those Pokemon stop other Pokemon from being viable. If there is a Pokemon that is game winning if you don't have a dedicated counter, see Dracovish in Gen 8, you are forced to carry that counter on EVERY team if you don't want to get annihilated. Seismitoad saw more usage than ever before or since in the Dracovish meta before it got banned.
Dracovish wasn't broken you could easily have outspeed it or brought in a pokemon with water absorb. Forcing everyone to run a counter to dracovish on their team is just meta development and not a bad thing. You see this in other competitive games and they don't whine about it
That's just team development, it kills diversity. Everyone was using Seismitoad to check (not even counter) Dracovish, but Seismitoad is completely useless outside of countering Dracovish, so as soon as Dracovish was banned, everyone stoppled using Seismitoad.
Why do you people play smogon, to win or for fun? If you're playing to win you have to get over playing teams with mons you don't want to use. If you want to play for fun you need to accept that a stronger pokemon may just annihilate your team of weaker mons.
This problem is that people are blaming smogon for something that's Game Freak's fault. They need to accept that Smogon didn't make "your bro" a shitmon, that's all on Game Freak. At least Smogon has the decency to have tiers and at least TRY to place pokmeon with similar strength.
That's why Smogon has tiers, so Pokemon are battling Pokemon of similar power levels
Banishing a pokemon to ubers instead of introducing counterplay is a band-aid fix. The pokemon may get obliterated in ubers or open up the lower tiers to another strong threat that no longer has a counter
>The pokemon may get obliterated in ubers
That doesn't matter because Ubers is a banlist, not a tier
In what world does fissure and king's rock belong in the same tier as Giratina and Eternatus?
If the point of tiers is to ensure pokemon of equal strength are battling together like
said then regular pokemon being put into ubers is a problem that breaks the system
Fissure and King's Rock aren't banned because they're overpowered. They're banned because they're dice rolls.
>Fissure/OHKO moves
30% chance to land, every OHKO move has a relevant immunity (except for Sheer Cold, but only Ice types learn that move anyways and Ice is an awful type), you have a 70% chance of wasting your turn vs consistently doing damage
>King's Rock
Only Pokemon that benefit from it are Maushold (kinda) and Skill Link mons, every Pokemon with that ability are trash (and aren't even in Gen 9) save for Cloyster who needs a turn of setup with no sash to help it, irrelevant item otherwise with a lower chance of activating bullshit than Quick Claw, which turned out to be a meme item
Scald, blizzard, sleep powder, and focus blast are dice rolls. All of them are higher than OHKO and flinch chances too
King's Rock is no worse than Serene Grace +Iron Head/Headbutt bullshit but the latter is allowed becuase Flinch never lost to that
King's Rock is broken on Cloyster. That's why it is banned. Having a 41% chance to just not move against a Pokemon that can 2HKO basically everything is not good.
Rock Cloyster is not outspeeding or OHKO without shell Smash, calling it broken is a real stretch
Yes, and? Cloyster always runs Shell Smash.
So what are you doing letting it set up for free with no sash? There is a huge opportunity cost to running Kings rock
Cloyster has 180 base defense.
It's not like Cloyster is a particularly frail Pokemon. The Sash is there for special attacks. It'll live a physical attack easily.
Cloyster is so tanky that even banded Dragapult's Dragon Darts doesn't even come close to killing it. Even if Cloyster ate 25% coming in from Stealth Rocks, it'll live with 7% of its health remaining.
>252 Atk Choice Band Dragapult Dragon Darts (2 hits) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Cloyster: 138-164 (57.2 - 68%) -- approx. 2HKO
>252 Atk Garchomp Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Cloyster: 99-117 (41 - 48.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
>252 Atk Landorus-Therian Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Cloyster: 142-168 (58.9 - 69.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Hell, even Glaive Rush from a +1 Baxcalibur isn't enough to OHKO Cloyster
>+1 252 Atk Baxcalibur Glaive Rush vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Cloyster: 190-225 (78.8 - 93.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
I've been playing ranked ladder for many gens already and Cloyster is a rarely seen mon, honestly.
I feel like Smogon is more afraid of potential strategies that could "ruin" their vision of healthy gameplay than those strategies actually been pulled off. Heck, even that, there're a lot of ways to circumvent those as well.
>the replies completely missing the point
holy shit is /vp/ fricking moronic for competitive
enlightening us please. We think it makes no sense to ban some dice roll moves and items while not banning others that have a higher chance of hitting and affecting the game more greatly
Oh no, not the poor Pokemon running roughshod on OU being banned to Ubers where it gets ran over 🙁
The problem is that having an auto-include kills team diversity. You're really stifled in how you can build and play if you have to always have a Water-immune Pokemon that can heal itself.
If you're playing to win the game you need to play the countermeta regardless if it is difficult or not fun
Smogon players are really weird about this, it seems to pretty much be they are OK with losing to competitive Pokemon with their off meta team as long as it takes a long time.
>Why do you people play smogon, to win or for fun?
As soon as I start up a match, I play to win, but I wouldn't be playing in the first place if I didn't find it fun.
Playing to win starts at team building, not when you click find match
Only stall teams could afford to put a Water Absorb Pokemon (read: Seismitoad) on their team. For any other playstyle, it was a huge momentum drain
>Dracovish wasn't broken
But Fishious Rend was.
Did you... forget what the discussion was about?
The discussion is about Dracovish hindering teambuilding and making the game less interesting, not about it being uncounterable.
I needed to point out that Dracovish isn't broken. If you prioritize putting "interesting" team choices on your team instead of pokemon that beat the opponent, you don't care enough about winning
>If you prioritize putting "interesting" team choices on your team instead of pokemon that beat the opponent
Ideally, you'd be able to do both. Which is kinda the whole point of banning shit like Dracovish.
>who cares about Smogon
About tree fiddy people
Is this the thread?
i mean vgc at least you can play with what you want, and its not restricted by incels homosexualry concil shity team
What you want except Mythicals, restricteds in most formats, Pokémon not native to the dex until they decide to allow them arbitrarily more than half a year later and of course, that's not considering the amount of mons that are straight up unviable because they can't compete with all the broken paradoxes/minor legendaries running around unrestricted, but yeah, you can play whatever you want 🙂
the only people that say that vgc or smogon are better than each other are shitposters that have never touched a pokemon game, let alone comp
do not reply
i completely forgot Zapdos had Lighting Rod as a hidden ability in Gen 5, makes me wonder why they changed it to Static
Static matches better with Snow Cloak and Flame Body
i guess, im not a competitive player so what was the better ability for zapdos
It does not match with Snow Cloak though. God I wish Articuno had a real ability and real stats.
Lightning Rod was certainly better. Zapdos is neutral to Electric attacks meaning it can get capped out of nowhere by a Thunderbolt. Static makes it better as a bulky switch in, but Zapdos' stats are geared towards offense.
Don't get me wrong, bulky Zapdos is really good, but Static gave Zapdos 2 niches that are good instead of having 1 niche that would be great.
Same reason they took Flash Fire/Water Absorb/Volt Absorb away from the legendary beasts and gave them all Inner Focus instead
Gen 5's meta revolved around weather, and Zapdos did poorly in the weather wars.
>outclassed by Rotom-W as an Electric-type on rain teams, and struggled with the myriad of Water-types present on those team that had Ice Beam for coverage
>sand teams almost always packed Tyranitar, one of its hardest counters
>hail teams gave it issues for extremely obvious reasons
>it did alright against sun teams - but sun teams were also the least popular of the four
He's right. How the frick do you even end up with a meta more unbalanced and volatile than gen 7 with the whole dex, megas and Z moves?
the only one of these that makes the metagame more volatile is z-moves. and it does that in a good way by shitting on stall
the current ou council is eternally mad that people still like SM but hate SS/SV, yet in the same breath will ban half the new mons
Should've banned tera to begin with instead of putting 50 mons that are broken with it in ubers. Gambit is next.
No one plays Gen 6 or 7 OU, they're some of the least popular OUs of all time. In terms of player base:
(current gen) > 3 > 4 > 5 > 1 > 2 > 7 > 6 > 8
Two big reasons are that the meta now trends massively toward heavy offense, and that gen 9 introduced a TON of mons with high BST's.
The paradoxes, treasures of ruin, Enamorus, Ursaluna, Kingambit, Baxcalibur, and Gholdengo are all in the 550-600 BST range which pretty much defines OU.
Plus, GF is now making some mons good on purpose. They're still GF, so the game isn't exactly "balanced", but there's intention behind their actions now.
It only dropped to UU because of Thundurus-T being able to use 100% accurate thunders under rain while also absorbing thunders/volt switches too.
In Gen 6, rain was nerfed and Zapdos was given Defog. And in Gen 8, Zapdos also got Hurricane and Weather Ball, making it the better option offensively too.
Hell, Sandy Shocks has a better role as an offensive electric type because it has Stealth Rocks and one of the few hazard setters to beat Glimmora and Samurott-H at the same time.
Thundurus can get fricked
Sandy Shocks is used almost exclusively for screens.
>she
>Has
>she
You made this thread just to shepost. have a nice day homosexual Black person fricking useless frick, blow your fricking brains out rotten Black person.
This is the part where shitters say
>W-well, I don't even WANT to play your shitty fanfic meta enough to get reqs
Happens every time someone brings up your point.
The point is meaningless because players have zero input on what is suspect tested and mods will just quickban if meta isn't working how they want.
Suspect tests are based on community sentiment. OU polls are done increasingly frequently, and whatever the community thinks is an issue inevitably gets suspected. See: Kingambit
>Suspect tests are based on community sentiment
Lol
Clefable saw extremely high support for suspect test in pre DLC Swsh meta, no test. Toxapex throughout the entire game's life, no test. Community polling in S/V shows people are interested in a Garganacl suspect, they QB Volcarona who nobody cares about besides a handful of tourney players.
Get bent liar.
Pre-DLC Sword and Shield had very few actual suspect tests. Same with Pre-HOME Scarlet and Violet. It's pretty obvious why - Smogon didn't want to jump the gun and ban something they might just need to unban in a couple of weeks or months.
Garganacl isn't really of interest outside of the lower levels of play. The surveys are weighted based on how good you are, and Garganacl isn't seen as a huge threat in higher levels of play where people naturally carry more counters and more powerful wincons. It's not that a Garganacl suspect test isn't going to happen, but that there are several other Pokemon that Smogon wants to suspect first.
>Clefable saw extremely high support for suspect test in pre DLC Swsh meta,
No it didn't
>Toxapex throughout the entire game's life
Toxapex was only ever talked about for a suspect in the Isle of Armor meta. It was clearly fine post-CT.
> Community polling in S/V shows people are interested in a Garganacl suspect
It really doesn't.
>they QB Volcarona who nobody cares about besides a handful of tourney players.
Volcarona would've been banned suspect test or no. They wanted to suspect Zamazenta instead. Shielddog survived and they moved onto Kingambit.
>Volcarona would've been banned suspect test or no.
Bait
>These bans are voted on by the best players of the game
Having an high score on a ladder doesn't turn a bad argument for a ban into a good one or erase the contradictions
>If you think you know better than people who are good at the game, get the winrate reqs and prove it.
I don't have to. Your appeal to authority does not work because your "group of good players" are not always right. My argument wouldn't be stronger if I had a higher elo because it is already strong
>If you can't prove yourself to be skilled enough to make such decisions, why should we listen to your opinions on balance?
I don't have to do anything to make my arguments more valid except defend and expand on them when challenged. You are hiding behind your elo as I point out the gaps in you and your "best players" logic. Attacking someone for who they are instead of what they are saying is the genetic fallacy. Be better bro
"she"
another moron
You do know tiers are generally based on usage? It simply did not get used in BW, there's nothing else to it. There is no "scam"