Don’t. Fighting games are shit now because they already cater to casuals. Tekken 7 will literally play itself for you with the assist moves/combo. Virtua Fighter 4 never had assists and was the best fighting game ever made.
It's a game where it's impossible to ethically learn how to play it, unless you can memorise everything completely with one glance, but then it's still unethical to play it because it isn't fun. >automatic combACK
Just adding auto combos isn't even a step for fixing this you moron. It doesn't cater to casuals. Also how would this change the game "experience" for you anyway? Just don't turn it on if you don't like it.
fully rebindable keys/commands is a start. All the far more competent devs belonging to other genres can't even get that right either. Fighting games is no different.
Moves being tied to motions is integral for creating balance an interesting strategies. Motions have all kinds of interesting implications about how you should be playing. If a move requires a forward motion then you can't block while buffering it etc.
You can say the current system makes sense for some perceived balance, but it doesn't make logical sense to a player why certain inputs work and some dont. Also the relation between input and output is tenuous at best. I could be fine with some reasonable limitations on rebinds. But it's not integral.You rebalance as needed and people adapt.
At this point people were given auto combos, one button specials, and a bunch of random stupid shit to do in single player for fun. At a certain point the problem stops being the genre and starts being the players. Shit thread.
Really? Because people love Smash Bros. The problem is pretty much every other game in the genre. They're not fun and they are so bad that "competing" in them is unethical because you are using what little time you have on earth to torture yourself for no reason.
Because smash bros sells the most because it is a gigantic Nintendo crossover. Mortal Kombat also sells 10s of millions, dumbfrick. Just because you burned yourself out trying to be MLG and ranked traumatized you from playing fighting games doesn't mean that everyone else had the same experience and the entire genre is somehow flawed and needs to be dumbed down to the point of being boring as shit. A recent fighting game finally gave people what you've been whining about for over a decade and you still complain like homosexuals and move the goalposts without providing any actual suggestions.
>makes up a fanfiction about me on command
lol what? Why anon? I never did any of that stuff. >what you've been whining about for over a decade
Who do you think I even am? >making good games is boring
Kys death is free.
It's fun because of the characters. If you replace all the characters in Smash with donut steel OCs and keep the gameplay/items exactly the same, no one would give a shit about it anymore
Who the hell is donut steel, this is the second time I have seen this today. Anyway yeah, if you make every single character all the same guy of course people wouldn't like it.
9 months ago
Anonymous
holy zoomer. You have to gotta lurk moar bro. It's not about making them all the same guy, it's making them all new and original characters, instead of them being nintendo, capcom, bandai, pokemon characters.
9 months ago
Anonymous
But who is he? >all new and original characters
For what purpose? You're talking about what, like 80 guys? Why do this? If they did and all of the characters are good then the game would still be good. It doesn't matter if some people don't give a shit anymore. Which they would, if all the characters were just as good as the current ones.
First person shooters are all identical except >graphics >movement >weapons
It's the same for the fighting game genre. Although FPSes do have more level design variety. But MOBAs on the other hand are all 3 lane. And really, good maps in team shooters are dressed up 3 lane as well.
This is untrue dude. Play some games.
9 months ago
Anonymous
>But who is he?
Just lurk moar bro >For what purpose? You're talking about what, like 80 guys? Why do this? If they did and all of the characters are good then the game would still be good.
The point is that if you remove all the characters people know about, no one would give a shit about the game. Smash sells because its one huge crossover, not its gameplay. Why do you think every fricking Smash thread when Ultimate was still getting updated, were people just talking about characters and never the gameplay?
9 months ago
Anonymous
>But who is he?
main character from trials in tainted space.
Smash Bros is a platform fighter. When people say "fighting games" they usually refer to either traditional 2d fighters like Street Fighter or 3d games like Tekken.
These games are unpopular because the barrier of entry is high. That's it. They require research and it's easy to lose in them if you're not paying attention. The controls themselves are people's first hurdle but once they get past that it's still difficult.
Smash is made for casuals, it has forgiving gameplay mechanics, it has recognizable characters. There's nothing wrong with that but that's also the key to its success. >Because people love Smash Bros.
I wonder why a game tailor-made to be easy to pick up and play, with fun braindead gameplay and fun characters is universally beloved. There's nothing inherently wrong with fighting games just because Smash Bros exists. Games with mainstream appeal will always be more popular.
>Smash Bros.
Get btfo. Proof that you can understand the so called "deep" mechanics of a fighting game without wasting your life. You can actually have fun playing the game and trying new moves. Anyone can do any of the moves at will and each one is fun. They don't hide any of them because they don't have to. If "games" like Tekken had simple controls everyone would so easily see how unfun the moves are. But hiding them in the pause menus and behind unreliable controls and stupid unnecessary complicated combinations of inputs is enough to distract certain brainless "people" from that.
>But who is he?
Just lurk moar bro >For what purpose? You're talking about what, like 80 guys? Why do this? If they did and all of the characters are good then the game would still be good.
The point is that if you remove all the characters people know about, no one would give a shit about the game. Smash sells because its one huge crossover, not its gameplay. Why do you think every fricking Smash thread when Ultimate was still getting updated, were people just talking about characters and never the gameplay?
Alright now here's my question about smash:
How many people were actively doing the 1v1 no items component over 4 player casual FFA
Actually better fricking question, how many people played online matches in comparison to offline?
Not very many at all. The competitive scene for Smash was always ridiculously small in comparison to its sales, just like Mortal Kombat. Viewer numbers for Smash was always high though.
I can't give you any numbers about online.
I don't know, I barely play Smash because I didn't grow up with Nintendo, but my cousins fricking love goofing around in it, precisely because of the characters, since they grew up on Nintendo
Yeah exactly, the main draw of Smash was always its characters + capability for STRESS-FREE gameplay.
If Smash was ONLY 1v1 with no other factors like items and that was that existed, I'm not certain it would have had the appeal that it does. The characters are still a massive boost however.
There's already 4 Fighting Game characters in Ultimate that still have their motion inputs and all 4 play out fine, that's why it's moronic to say inputs alone is why Smash is successful and that's probably not even really the real reason anyways.
9 months ago
Anonymous
>If smash didn't have fun things no one would like it
Yes. >all 4 play fine
They do not. They all suck compared to every other character and they are only playable because you can still use the normal smash controls for them. But that makes them weaker for no reason! What the hell is wrong with you in the brain?
9 months ago
Anonymous
>They do not. They all suck compared to every other character and they are only playable because you can still use the normal smash controls for them. But that makes them weaker for no reason! What the hell is wrong with you in the brain?
Because that's to balance them out moron, do you want 1 button EWGF with its current power? It's already the second best attack in Ultimate.
9 months ago
Anonymous
idk what the hell an EWGF is but it can just have one power setting. Why does it need two? And you are admitting that I'm right about the moves being inaccessible because if these moves could be reliably used then having the input versions be more powerful wouldn't be a "balance" like you claim.
>traditional
You're a plague. Die now. >they require research
That's bad. Video games are supposed to be fun to play. Why the hell would anyone on the planet want to have to research how to play one? >the controls
Don't exist. Every move is hidden behind so many things. Each move has different versions of these things and each character has different moves. There is no reason they can't have controls that are ethically understandable and the same for all characters like smash. >if you're not paying attention
That doesn't matter. Paying attention will not help you if you can't make the character do stuff. >smash is made for casuals
That's the point of video games. They're not serious irl things. >recognisable characters
Are you saying that the characters in ther games are unrecognisable on purpose so as to attract a different audience? One that takes video games seriously? >There's nothing inherently wrong with fighting games just because Smash Bros exists.
But smash bros is proof that they can be good. It's not smash's fault if no other "games" in the genre are.
>That's bad.
Why? They're fun. Starcraft is fun. Quake 3 Arena is fun. All of these games require some sort of prior research but once you get into them, they're very enjoyable. Why does your definition of what a video game should be like take precedence over everything else? >There is no reason they can't have controls that are ethically understandable and the same for all characters like smash.
Besides balance in the form of motion inputs, Smash's system is restrictive because it only allows each character a limited number of moves, hence why many Smash characters have a gimmick or resource outside their special moves. Other fighting games don't have this problem. More moves available to you means more unique gameplay situations which in turn means more engaging, non-flowcharty gameplay.
I'm not saying that Smash is a flowchart game, it definitely is not, the emphasis on movement sees to that. But that just highlights the fact that Smash is so profoundly different from other fighting games that they aren't worth comparing. >Paying attention will not help you if you can't make the character do stuff.
Literally skill issue. >That's the point of video games.
According to you. I have had more fun with Street Fighter than any other game and that's not exactly a game made for casuals. Once again, you are acting like your vision of what video games are "supposed" to be is more important than other people's enjoyment.
1/2
>quake starcraft
No one has ever m=played these games so I can't comment. >why does your definition take precedence
Because I'm the best. >restrictive
There are so many damn moves for each character, how many do you need? In fact they have more moves than other fighting "games" because in other fighting "games" you don't know about 99.999% of the moves. >moe moves available
They are not available. >more unique gameplay situation
This is proof that you have no brain. Like actually, not metaphorically. Every single match of every single fighting "game" besides smash is exactly the same. It has been like this for decades. >not worth comparing because different
The difference is, smash is good. It's worth comparing because other games should try to be good. >skill issue
Haha so funny. You know this is a lie. If you can know all these moves it's an ethics issue. And you still can't do them every time because unreliable controls. Normal people are unable to make the character do things because they make sure you can't. If you could do the moves you would see how bad and unfun they are without being distracted by other things first. >I had more fun with street fighter than all other games
If that was true, it means you have never played any other video game in your life. But it's not true, you are only lying. >other people's enjoyment
They don't enjoy the things that I am saying is bad.
>That's bad.
Why? They're fun. Starcraft is fun. Quake 3 Arena is fun. All of these games require some sort of prior research but once you get into them, they're very enjoyable. Why does your definition of what a video game should be like take precedence over everything else? >There is no reason they can't have controls that are ethically understandable and the same for all characters like smash.
Besides balance in the form of motion inputs, Smash's system is restrictive because it only allows each character a limited number of moves, hence why many Smash characters have a gimmick or resource outside their special moves. Other fighting games don't have this problem. More moves available to you means more unique gameplay situations which in turn means more engaging, non-flowcharty gameplay.
I'm not saying that Smash is a flowchart game, it definitely is not, the emphasis on movement sees to that. But that just highlights the fact that Smash is so profoundly different from other fighting games that they aren't worth comparing. >Paying attention will not help you if you can't make the character do stuff.
Literally skill issue. >That's the point of video games.
According to you. I have had more fun with Street Fighter than any other game and that's not exactly a game made for casuals. Once again, you are acting like your vision of what video games are "supposed" to be is more important than other people's enjoyment.
1/2
>Are you saying that the characters in ther games are unrecognisable on purpose so as to attract a different audience?
I'm saying that Smash Bros. lives and dies depending on its characters. Street Fighter doesn't "make" its characters unrecognizable, rather Smash only adds characters that people already know about. Are you dumb? Smash is a crossover game wit characters from tons of different franchises. Of course Mario, Sonic and Snake are more recognizable than than Ky from Guilty Gear, their franchises have sold tens of millions of copies on their own. >But smash bros is proof that they can be good.
Smash Bros is an outlier. It is different from all other fighting games. It's its own thing. It plays nothing like other fighting games for good and for worse.
Smash Bros is proof that games like Smash Bros (i.e. not Street Fighter, not Tekken), such as Brawlhalla and Rivals of Aether are fun for casuals. And that's literally it. It has a fun formula that people like but as I've been saying this whole time, it's not worth comparing the two. Street Fighter wouldn't be Street Fighter anymore if you had easy inputs, no health bars, double jumps, shields, etc. You'd essentially strip it of everything that its fans like and turn it into a Smash clone.
I won't be responding to this thread anymore. You have such a narrow-minded view of what games are supposed to be like that it's no use trying to convince you otherwise. Your argument boils down to "Smash is a fighting game, so why aren't all fighting games like Smash?" disregarding to the fact that many people don't consider Smash to even be a part of the same genre as Tekken or Street Fighter because of its distinct otherness and many unique qualities. You must be underage or autistic.
2/2
>smash only adds characters that people already know
No they don't. Stop lying. >smash lives and dies by it's characters
That's normal for a fighting game. But smash characters are better characters than the other ones. >Being good is too different! You can't compare!!
kek >brawlhalla fun
It's not. it really really sucks you moron. Haven't played the other one. >street fighter wouldn't be street fighter if it was a video game and could be played by human beings
Lies. >I lost now I must go, pls understand.
9 months ago
Anonymous
not him but why are you so stingy about what people can and can't enjoy? why can't you just let people play what they want to play?
9 months ago
Anonymous
They don't want to play these games. They are moronic pretentious lost souls who are torturing themselves. This should not be tolerated.
>many people say that smash is a different game
Yes because Smash is good and these other things aren't. What don't you understand about that? It's like you're trying to say "all fighting games must be street fighter copy paste pls understand". And you're not even giving any reasons why. It's a bad game, there are no reasons to keep making it over and over again.
Brand power and dedicated base to go with said brand. It's why DBFZ still holds 1000+ player counts on steam despite poor netcode.
Another example would be MK. Though the competitive scene is tiny it has casual appeal with its gore, many extra modes and story making it the highest selling traditional fighter series on the market
.>648308151
What are you even talking about you defeatist homosexual? You act as if that can't be said for practically any competitive game. If someone is the first person to die in a fortnite match should they come to the conclusion that the game is "impossible" to learn? I love when defeatist homosexuals throw tantrums about a skill level that only 15% of the playerbase reaches. Dilate harder.
>How can we make fighting games more accessible for casual players?
start by making it accessible to people who actually play fighting games lmao
ask a FGChimp why he isn't playing his favorite game and he'll give you a list of excuses bigger than the combo list of most characters
Here's a crazy idea. >make tutorials that teach players the mindset of how to approach a fighting game match, not just the mechanics >include all the esoteric information (frame data, hitboxes, immunities, etc.) in an in-game encyclopedia, and not on SRK/Dustloop/Infil's Fighting Game Glossary/some random fan wikia on the internet
You will literally never get these games attention at the level of shooters or MOBAs because those are team based games. Such games have huge boons >It's a more social experience because you'll play with friends or meet people you cooperate with online >When you lose you can blame other people and shield your own ego
In fighting games meanwhile >games are 1v1, no teammates. If you want your friends to play with you the only way is against each other. Everyone has heard of the stories of "my friend won't play Street Fighter with me anymore because he said I was spamming hadouken / butt slam / etc" >If you lose you have to either accept you made mistakes or conclude the game itself is bad because it allowed the other player to 'spam you out' or is too hard on purpose
That's a lot of wrong things you just said anon. The games ARE bad. People have noticed since decades ago and 99.999% of the games in this genre are exactly the same copy pasted thing as street fighter was thirty years ago. It wasn't even fun then. It won't be fun now.
First person shooters are all identical except >graphics >movement >weapons
It's the same for the fighting game genre. Although FPSes do have more level design variety. But MOBAs on the other hand are all 3 lane. And really, good maps in team shooters are dressed up 3 lane as well.
you cant
fighting games are the type of game where if you give new players a tool the GOOD players will use it better
fighting games are not for casuals
alright
then fighting games are NOT for players who do not want to learn the deep mechanics within it
its not a genre that can be made accessible for players who do not want to put the time to learn it
fighting games are not for players who think they can get a game, try it for a couple hours, and start winning
>Smash Bros.
Get btfo. Proof that you can understand the so called "deep" mechanics of a fighting game without wasting your life. You can actually have fun playing the game and trying new moves. Anyone can do any of the moves at will and each one is fun. They don't hide any of them because they don't have to. If "games" like Tekken had simple controls everyone would so easily see how unfun the moves are. But hiding them in the pause menus and behind unreliable controls and stupid unnecessary complicated combinations of inputs is enough to distract certain brainless "people" from that.
Smash Bros and Tekken are completely different. You are comparing two things that have almost nothing in common. Next you'll tell me that Civilization is way betterer than Starcraft because the former is turn-based.
How the frick are you supposed to casualize the genre any fricking further? SF6 is pretty much the apex of this with modern controls and the shitload of side content it has, and MK has always been casualized.
No, fricking face it. People don't want to get destroyed in a 1v1 over and over again thanks to minute skill differences making a larger impact and the lack of teammates that can be blamed, yeah sure people can go and blame characters spamming fireballs but that's a cope that never sticks.
In fact if sf6 shipped without modern controls I imagine the amount of launch players it would have would be the fricking same why? Cause the game actually has worthwhile content to do, and you don't have to just get walled out by a JP that doesnt let you in.
motions are the biggest barrier to playing fighting games imo; you can't play the game properly if you can't input the motion fast enough to combo a light attack into a super, and some people can't do that consistently after hundreds of hours of practice.
But the bigger issue for most fighting games isn't accessibility, it's that they're uninteresting and unappealing. Forget about players being able to handle the controls, if there isn't something that makes me WANT to play the game in the first place it doesn't matter
Hardly
Player skill gaps will always exist with or without motion inputs. SF6 has modern controls and guess what, that's not enough for the average person to jump in.
Even more moronic is that it was pro players from previous Street Fighter titles who used Modern controls the best because they could take advantage of the benefits more than some dumbass mashing for his autocombo.
Skill gaps aren't a problem. No one thinks that bad players should be beating good players. But if you lose because you get outplayed you can gradually improve as you work on your gameplan. However, if you can't even get to that stage because your fingers can't input the move your brain wants to use, there's a huge amount of practice mode standing between you and the point where you even begin to engage with the strategy aspect of the game.
I don't know anyone who was excited to play SF6 yet ended up dropping it because of accessibility. They're dropping SF6 because they're not interested.
They're dropping SF6 because it's a fighting game at its core.
As soon as that first week of everyone being shitty was up, the rest of the players cleared out due to either launch hype wearing off, or because they quickly went 0-20. Even if the game was purely modern and or just completely got rid of motion inputs, Daigo, Tokido, and or Haitani could still walk up to that battle hub cabinet and completely wash the ever living shit out of (you) the shithead that got unlucky enough to be fighting them in the first place.
>Even if the game was purely modern and or just completely got rid of motion inputs, Daigo, Tokido, and or Haitani could still walk up to that battle hub cabinet and completely wash the ever living shit out of (you) the shithead that got unlucky enough to be fighting them in the first place.
EVERYONE agrees this is a good thing. NOBODY wants to play a game in which day 1 noobs beat world-famous experts.
>and some people can't do that consistently after hundreds of hours of practice.
You're mistaking practice for playtime. Some people just don't have the motivation to go to training mode and lab their problems out. Those that do, even if it's just for an hour out of a week, are vastly better at their respective game.
I'm convinced that you can't at this point. SF6's modern mode is probably the best attempt at making this genre accessible for mouth-breathers, but even then SF6's player numbers are slowly withering down, and I'm sure that most of those who still play the game aren't new to the genre.
>I'm sure that most of those who still play the game aren't new to the genre.
Yeah that applies to me, but I'm still curious about later fighters doing modern controls in their own moronic ways.
>GBVS:R removing motion inputs which might cause problems (I think it already has) >Tekken 8's assist shit getting expanded and potentially being even more abusable >Fatal Fury COTW's modern controls attempt possibly failing
The only way to make 8's assist mode broken would be to let players mash moves out of a blockstring that have a movement/stance component tied to it. For example electrics have a stance (crouch dash) tied to them, hence why you can't mash them during a blockstring, or optimizing crouch punishes with a crouch cancel which can sometimes be tricky depending on your character. I think it's just going to be a more customizable version of 7's assist mode, which had terribad combos and 18 frame godfists so at most you'd could mash rage art punish with it.
World tour would have been a good way to introduce people to the mechanics slowly like an extended tutorial until they can handle more difficult opponents, but instead they had to make it an RPG where character stats are more important than skill. What a waste.
You can’t. “Casual players” hate losing. It’s a myth that competitive players are the ones who only care about winning. You can’t play a competitive multiplayer game without being able to handle losing, because, no matter how good you are, there will always be people who can beat you. “Casual players” can’t handle that, and that’s why they don’t play competitive multiplayer games.
the guy you replied to is only half right
you can always blame something in battle royale games if you lose like poor rng for example, the same way you can blame your team in league or overwatch. losing is never fun but it's especially hard in fighting games because there's so very little you can blame. you can only call your opponent a tierprostitute or a scrub and be done with it, and then rot in your chair as you realize you suck at the game.
couple that with the fact that even if you lose in a battle royale game, you might still place top 10 or even get 2nd place. br matches last a long time so you get to "play" them a lot more too, scoring kills and whatnot. if you're losing in a fighting game, you're usually losing hard and getting pressured, and a lot of people don't like blocking mixups all game.
>you can always blame something in battle royale games if you lose like poor rng for example
as if theres a shortage of FGChimps doing that in their 1v1 game
blame has nothing to do with it
the reality is that the experience of playing the average fighting game is miserable
people will seethe endlessly over CSGO or MOBAs, they'll snap their keyboards in half, get their accounts banned but they'll still queue up for another match
while you have fighting games where you have hordes of shills telling you how great the latest turd is but they refuse to play it even once a day
Break the game down to individual components and then design a progression system around it. Basically a guided separate ranked mode.
At the lowest tiers, you have a sweep, a poke, and simple antiair button, and one jump-in attack. Once you get the hang of it, you can simply choose to advance to the next tier, incorporating your first simple bnb combo. Then an actual uppercut, and so on. You slowly work your way into unlocking your character's entire toolkit.
This is the approach Ceelows uses in his character tutorials for sfv and it's the simplest and most rewarding way to learn, because you get instant results. You just keep adding small steps at every stage progression.
Look at this and tell me it wouldn't work.
I believe you can achieve this without casualizing the mechanics of the game. Simply give players of all experience levels better tools to learn the game.
SF6 was a huge step in the right direction with a lot of the improvements they made to training mode, but I feel like it wasn't enough.
Imagine if after a set against someone you could select an option that lets you skim through a demo recording of the game(s) you played. You'd be able to select segments of the match and it would capture the inputs your opponent made, and then play it back at varying speeds of your choice. That way, you'd be able to pin point something your opponent does that really fricks you up, without having to tediously go into a replay, take notes, and then exit the replay and lab it. You can simply relive the experience live, and attempt to figure out a solution. I feel like this would greatly help both new players and veterans.
And another thing. I don't want to have to learn how to play my opponent's entire character, just to lab against one interaction. It's fine in Street Fighter 6, but in other games with autistic execution I wouldn't be able to lab certain things (especially if a character has 1 frame links or something)
Furthermore, a fricking in-game wiki or something that shows frame data and hitboxes without having to alt tab to your browser would also be nice. Don't NRS games have this feature? I haven't played them so I dunno.
This is a good idea, and parts of it have already been done before so it's feasible. Tekken 7 had a replay feature where you could see a punish for a certain move that you blocked, and i think you could practice against that move right away, and then gg +R had the jump into replay feature where you could just pop in at any moment and practice against whatever setup or neutral situation. Also yeah NRS games have frame data built in, not hitboxes if i recall though
>Tekken 7 replay feature >+R
That's pretty cool. I played T7 casually with my friends for a bit while we were waiting for SF6. Both of those are features that seem like it wouldn't be challenging to implement in any game pretty much, and is something I would use frequently.
It's a shame that the big studios are focusing so much on simplifying mechanics rather than innovating in-game learning tools. Even with the modern controls on SF6 for example, my noob friends were still asking me questions all the time, as the game didn't teach them enough.
>competitive game >casual
you don't touch multiplayer with the casual-stick
make a silly story mode for them to spend their time in
hell, you could throw an entire strategy/board game on top of it where you can work toward lots of easier fights or a few harder fights for cosmetic rewards
Its hilarious how much this board pretends to consist of le hardcore troo gaymers only for them to literally shit themselves and mentally completely crumble when it comes to anything that exposes how bad they actually are, and they turn into the average snoygroid begging for an entire genre to become more "casual" and "inviting" like some fricking fat acne riddled purple haired prostitute begging for comics to inject even more "diversity" in 2023
Don’t. Fighting games are shit now because they already cater to casuals. Tekken 7 will literally play itself for you with the assist moves/combo. Virtua Fighter 4 never had assists and was the best fighting game ever made.
It's a game where it's impossible to ethically learn how to play it, unless you can memorise everything completely with one glance, but then it's still unethical to play it because it isn't fun.
>automatic combACK
Just adding auto combos isn't even a step for fixing this you moron. It doesn't cater to casuals. Also how would this change the game "experience" for you anyway? Just don't turn it on if you don't like it.
you seem to work on a strange principle of ethics. do enlighten us, moron-kun.
It's a normal ethics dummy. God gave you the gift of life and you just waste it. That's bad. You hurt yourself. that's bad. How is this new to you?
>Tekken 7 will literally play itself for you with the assist moves/combo
This shit is only in one mode, the frick are you talking about?
Project L will show you how
this. all casual players need to be dedicated for life is characters they know, being able to cooperate with friends, and live service content.
>These morons think a shitty SFxTekken clone will make FG good for casuals
Lol, lmao even.
Frick casuals, git gud or frick off from FG scene
>moron genuinely thinks only "competitive" players keep games alive
fricking hilarious
Fat asses
standardize the controls so I don't have to remember different combos for every character
Two good advices? On Ganker? No way.
Good idea anon
fully rebindable keys/commands is a start. All the far more competent devs belonging to other genres can't even get that right either. Fighting games is no different.
Moves being tied to motions is integral for creating balance an interesting strategies. Motions have all kinds of interesting implications about how you should be playing. If a move requires a forward motion then you can't block while buffering it etc.
You can say the current system makes sense for some perceived balance, but it doesn't make logical sense to a player why certain inputs work and some dont. Also the relation between input and output is tenuous at best. I could be fine with some reasonable limitations on rebinds. But it's not integral.You rebalance as needed and people adapt.
Reboot Divekick
whichever moron made this shit clearly didn't understand the assignment.
At this point people were given auto combos, one button specials, and a bunch of random stupid shit to do in single player for fun. At a certain point the problem stops being the genre and starts being the players. Shit thread.
Really? Because people love Smash Bros. The problem is pretty much every other game in the genre. They're not fun and they are so bad that "competing" in them is unethical because you are using what little time you have on earth to torture yourself for no reason.
Because smash bros sells the most because it is a gigantic Nintendo crossover. Mortal Kombat also sells 10s of millions, dumbfrick. Just because you burned yourself out trying to be MLG and ranked traumatized you from playing fighting games doesn't mean that everyone else had the same experience and the entire genre is somehow flawed and needs to be dumbed down to the point of being boring as shit. A recent fighting game finally gave people what you've been whining about for over a decade and you still complain like homosexuals and move the goalposts without providing any actual suggestions.
>makes up a fanfiction about me on command
lol what? Why anon? I never did any of that stuff.
>what you've been whining about for over a decade
Who do you think I even am?
>making good games is boring
Kys death is free.
>Really? Because people love a game filled with characters from a bunch of their favourite childhood games
moron. Smash is just one big crossover.
So what? It's fun, everyone knows it's fun except competitive """""""""""""""people""""""""""""""".
>do you play smash bros
Sometimes.
>do you play fightans
Idk what that is
>enlighten us
About?
alright I'll take it that you're just baiting then, because you're being deliberately evasive.
I am not, idk what you're asking me.
It's fun because of the characters. If you replace all the characters in Smash with donut steel OCs and keep the gameplay/items exactly the same, no one would give a shit about it anymore
Who the hell is donut steel, this is the second time I have seen this today. Anyway yeah, if you make every single character all the same guy of course people wouldn't like it.
holy zoomer. You have to gotta lurk moar bro. It's not about making them all the same guy, it's making them all new and original characters, instead of them being nintendo, capcom, bandai, pokemon characters.
But who is he?
>all new and original characters
For what purpose? You're talking about what, like 80 guys? Why do this? If they did and all of the characters are good then the game would still be good. It doesn't matter if some people don't give a shit anymore. Which they would, if all the characters were just as good as the current ones.
This is untrue dude. Play some games.
>But who is he?
Just lurk moar bro
>For what purpose? You're talking about what, like 80 guys? Why do this? If they did and all of the characters are good then the game would still be good.
The point is that if you remove all the characters people know about, no one would give a shit about the game. Smash sells because its one huge crossover, not its gameplay. Why do you think every fricking Smash thread when Ultimate was still getting updated, were people just talking about characters and never the gameplay?
>But who is he?
main character from trials in tainted space.
well, do you play smash bros? do you play fightans? surely there's some personal experience there. do enlighten us.
Smash Bros is a platform fighter. When people say "fighting games" they usually refer to either traditional 2d fighters like Street Fighter or 3d games like Tekken.
These games are unpopular because the barrier of entry is high. That's it. They require research and it's easy to lose in them if you're not paying attention. The controls themselves are people's first hurdle but once they get past that it's still difficult.
Smash is made for casuals, it has forgiving gameplay mechanics, it has recognizable characters. There's nothing wrong with that but that's also the key to its success.
>Because people love Smash Bros.
I wonder why a game tailor-made to be easy to pick up and play, with fun braindead gameplay and fun characters is universally beloved. There's nothing inherently wrong with fighting games just because Smash Bros exists. Games with mainstream appeal will always be more popular.
Alright now here's my question about smash:
How many people were actively doing the 1v1 no items component over 4 player casual FFA
Actually better fricking question, how many people played online matches in comparison to offline?
Not very many at all. The competitive scene for Smash was always ridiculously small in comparison to its sales, just like Mortal Kombat. Viewer numbers for Smash was always high though.
I can't give you any numbers about online.
Yeah exactly, the main draw of Smash was always its characters + capability for STRESS-FREE gameplay.
I don't know, I barely play Smash because I didn't grow up with Nintendo, but my cousins fricking love goofing around in it, precisely because of the characters, since they grew up on Nintendo
What's the point of this question?
See
If Smash was ONLY 1v1 with no other factors like items and that was that existed, I'm not certain it would have had the appeal that it does. The characters are still a massive boost however.
There's already 4 Fighting Game characters in Ultimate that still have their motion inputs and all 4 play out fine, that's why it's moronic to say inputs alone is why Smash is successful and that's probably not even really the real reason anyways.
>If smash didn't have fun things no one would like it
Yes.
>all 4 play fine
They do not. They all suck compared to every other character and they are only playable because you can still use the normal smash controls for them. But that makes them weaker for no reason! What the hell is wrong with you in the brain?
>They do not. They all suck compared to every other character and they are only playable because you can still use the normal smash controls for them. But that makes them weaker for no reason! What the hell is wrong with you in the brain?
Because that's to balance them out moron, do you want 1 button EWGF with its current power? It's already the second best attack in Ultimate.
idk what the hell an EWGF is but it can just have one power setting. Why does it need two? And you are admitting that I'm right about the moves being inaccessible because if these moves could be reliably used then having the input versions be more powerful wouldn't be a "balance" like you claim.
>traditional
You're a plague. Die now.
>they require research
That's bad. Video games are supposed to be fun to play. Why the hell would anyone on the planet want to have to research how to play one?
>the controls
Don't exist. Every move is hidden behind so many things. Each move has different versions of these things and each character has different moves. There is no reason they can't have controls that are ethically understandable and the same for all characters like smash.
>if you're not paying attention
That doesn't matter. Paying attention will not help you if you can't make the character do stuff.
>smash is made for casuals
That's the point of video games. They're not serious irl things.
>recognisable characters
Are you saying that the characters in ther games are unrecognisable on purpose so as to attract a different audience? One that takes video games seriously?
>There's nothing inherently wrong with fighting games just because Smash Bros exists.
But smash bros is proof that they can be good. It's not smash's fault if no other "games" in the genre are.
>That's bad.
Why? They're fun. Starcraft is fun. Quake 3 Arena is fun. All of these games require some sort of prior research but once you get into them, they're very enjoyable. Why does your definition of what a video game should be like take precedence over everything else?
>There is no reason they can't have controls that are ethically understandable and the same for all characters like smash.
Besides balance in the form of motion inputs, Smash's system is restrictive because it only allows each character a limited number of moves, hence why many Smash characters have a gimmick or resource outside their special moves. Other fighting games don't have this problem. More moves available to you means more unique gameplay situations which in turn means more engaging, non-flowcharty gameplay.
I'm not saying that Smash is a flowchart game, it definitely is not, the emphasis on movement sees to that. But that just highlights the fact that Smash is so profoundly different from other fighting games that they aren't worth comparing.
>Paying attention will not help you if you can't make the character do stuff.
Literally skill issue.
>That's the point of video games.
According to you. I have had more fun with Street Fighter than any other game and that's not exactly a game made for casuals. Once again, you are acting like your vision of what video games are "supposed" to be is more important than other people's enjoyment.
1/2
>quake starcraft
No one has ever m=played these games so I can't comment.
>why does your definition take precedence
Because I'm the best.
>restrictive
There are so many damn moves for each character, how many do you need? In fact they have more moves than other fighting "games" because in other fighting "games" you don't know about 99.999% of the moves.
>moe moves available
They are not available.
>more unique gameplay situation
This is proof that you have no brain. Like actually, not metaphorically. Every single match of every single fighting "game" besides smash is exactly the same. It has been like this for decades.
>not worth comparing because different
The difference is, smash is good. It's worth comparing because other games should try to be good.
>skill issue
Haha so funny. You know this is a lie. If you can know all these moves it's an ethics issue. And you still can't do them every time because unreliable controls. Normal people are unable to make the character do things because they make sure you can't. If you could do the moves you would see how bad and unfun they are without being distracted by other things first.
>I had more fun with street fighter than all other games
If that was true, it means you have never played any other video game in your life. But it's not true, you are only lying.
>other people's enjoyment
They don't enjoy the things that I am saying is bad.
>Are you saying that the characters in ther games are unrecognisable on purpose so as to attract a different audience?
I'm saying that Smash Bros. lives and dies depending on its characters. Street Fighter doesn't "make" its characters unrecognizable, rather Smash only adds characters that people already know about. Are you dumb? Smash is a crossover game wit characters from tons of different franchises. Of course Mario, Sonic and Snake are more recognizable than than Ky from Guilty Gear, their franchises have sold tens of millions of copies on their own.
>But smash bros is proof that they can be good.
Smash Bros is an outlier. It is different from all other fighting games. It's its own thing. It plays nothing like other fighting games for good and for worse.
Smash Bros is proof that games like Smash Bros (i.e. not Street Fighter, not Tekken), such as Brawlhalla and Rivals of Aether are fun for casuals. And that's literally it. It has a fun formula that people like but as I've been saying this whole time, it's not worth comparing the two. Street Fighter wouldn't be Street Fighter anymore if you had easy inputs, no health bars, double jumps, shields, etc. You'd essentially strip it of everything that its fans like and turn it into a Smash clone.
I won't be responding to this thread anymore. You have such a narrow-minded view of what games are supposed to be like that it's no use trying to convince you otherwise. Your argument boils down to "Smash is a fighting game, so why aren't all fighting games like Smash?" disregarding to the fact that many people don't consider Smash to even be a part of the same genre as Tekken or Street Fighter because of its distinct otherness and many unique qualities. You must be underage or autistic.
2/2
>smash only adds characters that people already know
No they don't. Stop lying.
>smash lives and dies by it's characters
That's normal for a fighting game. But smash characters are better characters than the other ones.
>Being good is too different! You can't compare!!
kek
>brawlhalla fun
It's not. it really really sucks you moron. Haven't played the other one.
>street fighter wouldn't be street fighter if it was a video game and could be played by human beings
Lies.
>I lost now I must go, pls understand.
not him but why are you so stingy about what people can and can't enjoy? why can't you just let people play what they want to play?
They don't want to play these games. They are moronic pretentious lost souls who are torturing themselves. This should not be tolerated.
>enjoy
They don't.
>many people say that smash is a different game
Yes because Smash is good and these other things aren't. What don't you understand about that? It's like you're trying to say "all fighting games must be street fighter copy paste pls understand". And you're not even giving any reasons why. It's a bad game, there are no reasons to keep making it over and over again.
BBtag and DoA are nothing like Street Fighter
>platform fighter
stop using this term, this "genre" does not exist.
We don't
Very very simple, make a fun game.
>That's too hard!!!!
Then don't make any game.
This was solved at the same time fighting games hit arcades. They're called beat-em-ups
>Can we?
Yes
>Should we?
No
Foids can't have abs.
I hate games with Fortnite faces. Fortnite has been a terrible influence on gaming.
you mean overwatch
lol, and people complain about anime "samefaces".
those western/pixar designs aren't anything new to vidya
you only point to fortnite because they did it successfully
it will be a huge upgrade from the RE engine.
I'd prefer this style over what we currently have, and by a large margin.
fortnite style is still far better than 99% of western games
I like it.
Brand power and dedicated base to go with said brand. It's why DBFZ still holds 1000+ player counts on steam despite poor netcode.
Another example would be MK. Though the competitive scene is tiny it has casual appeal with its gore, many extra modes and story making it the highest selling traditional fighter series on the market
Reduce emphasis on combos
Counterpoint: Samurai Shodown and a few other games already exist with what you want and still no massive amount of players are flocking to it
.>648308151
What are you even talking about you defeatist homosexual? You act as if that can't be said for practically any competitive game. If someone is the first person to die in a fortnite match should they come to the conclusion that the game is "impossible" to learn? I love when defeatist homosexuals throw tantrums about a skill level that only 15% of the playerbase reaches. Dilate harder.
>How can we make fighting games more accessible for casual players?
start by making it accessible to people who actually play fighting games lmao
ask a FGChimp why he isn't playing his favorite game and he'll give you a list of excuses bigger than the combo list of most characters
Here's a crazy idea.
>make tutorials that teach players the mindset of how to approach a fighting game match, not just the mechanics
>include all the esoteric information (frame data, hitboxes, immunities, etc.) in an in-game encyclopedia, and not on SRK/Dustloop/Infil's Fighting Game Glossary/some random fan wikia on the internet
resources, i wanted to use modern ken but everything online was for classic. So I used classic.
It seems modern is only for veteran players who know what to do
You will literally never get these games attention at the level of shooters or MOBAs because those are team based games. Such games have huge boons
>It's a more social experience because you'll play with friends or meet people you cooperate with online
>When you lose you can blame other people and shield your own ego
In fighting games meanwhile
>games are 1v1, no teammates. If you want your friends to play with you the only way is against each other. Everyone has heard of the stories of "my friend won't play Street Fighter with me anymore because he said I was spamming hadouken / butt slam / etc"
>If you lose you have to either accept you made mistakes or conclude the game itself is bad because it allowed the other player to 'spam you out' or is too hard on purpose
That's a lot of wrong things you just said anon. The games ARE bad. People have noticed since decades ago and 99.999% of the games in this genre are exactly the same copy pasted thing as street fighter was thirty years ago. It wasn't even fun then. It won't be fun now.
First person shooters are all identical except
>graphics
>movement
>weapons
It's the same for the fighting game genre. Although FPSes do have more level design variety. But MOBAs on the other hand are all 3 lane. And really, good maps in team shooters are dressed up 3 lane as well.
you cant
fighting games are the type of game where if you give new players a tool the GOOD players will use it better
fighting games are not for casuals
All video games are for "casuals". If you think you are competing when playing a video game you're nothing.
alright
then fighting games are NOT for players who do not want to learn the deep mechanics within it
its not a genre that can be made accessible for players who do not want to put the time to learn it
fighting games are not for players who think they can get a game, try it for a couple hours, and start winning
>Smash Bros.
Get btfo. Proof that you can understand the so called "deep" mechanics of a fighting game without wasting your life. You can actually have fun playing the game and trying new moves. Anyone can do any of the moves at will and each one is fun. They don't hide any of them because they don't have to. If "games" like Tekken had simple controls everyone would so easily see how unfun the moves are. But hiding them in the pause menus and behind unreliable controls and stupid unnecessary complicated combinations of inputs is enough to distract certain brainless "people" from that.
Smash Bros and Tekken are completely different. You are comparing two things that have almost nothing in common. Next you'll tell me that Civilization is way betterer than Starcraft because the former is turn-based.
Why would I tell you that? I'm the guy who likes fun remember. Why would I like turn based? Don't now those games though.
>guy why don't we make the Olympics more accessible to obese people?
How the frick are you supposed to casualize the genre any fricking further? SF6 is pretty much the apex of this with modern controls and the shitload of side content it has, and MK has always been casualized.
No, fricking face it. People don't want to get destroyed in a 1v1 over and over again thanks to minute skill differences making a larger impact and the lack of teammates that can be blamed, yeah sure people can go and blame characters spamming fireballs but that's a cope that never sticks.
In fact if sf6 shipped without modern controls I imagine the amount of launch players it would have would be the fricking same why? Cause the game actually has worthwhile content to do, and you don't have to just get walled out by a JP that doesnt let you in.
motions are the biggest barrier to playing fighting games imo; you can't play the game properly if you can't input the motion fast enough to combo a light attack into a super, and some people can't do that consistently after hundreds of hours of practice.
But the bigger issue for most fighting games isn't accessibility, it's that they're uninteresting and unappealing. Forget about players being able to handle the controls, if there isn't something that makes me WANT to play the game in the first place it doesn't matter
Hardly
Player skill gaps will always exist with or without motion inputs. SF6 has modern controls and guess what, that's not enough for the average person to jump in.
Even more moronic is that it was pro players from previous Street Fighter titles who used Modern controls the best because they could take advantage of the benefits more than some dumbass mashing for his autocombo.
Skill gaps aren't a problem. No one thinks that bad players should be beating good players. But if you lose because you get outplayed you can gradually improve as you work on your gameplan. However, if you can't even get to that stage because your fingers can't input the move your brain wants to use, there's a huge amount of practice mode standing between you and the point where you even begin to engage with the strategy aspect of the game.
I don't know anyone who was excited to play SF6 yet ended up dropping it because of accessibility. They're dropping SF6 because they're not interested.
They're dropping SF6 because it's a fighting game at its core.
As soon as that first week of everyone being shitty was up, the rest of the players cleared out due to either launch hype wearing off, or because they quickly went 0-20. Even if the game was purely modern and or just completely got rid of motion inputs, Daigo, Tokido, and or Haitani could still walk up to that battle hub cabinet and completely wash the ever living shit out of (you) the shithead that got unlucky enough to be fighting them in the first place.
>Even if the game was purely modern and or just completely got rid of motion inputs, Daigo, Tokido, and or Haitani could still walk up to that battle hub cabinet and completely wash the ever living shit out of (you) the shithead that got unlucky enough to be fighting them in the first place.
EVERYONE agrees this is a good thing. NOBODY wants to play a game in which day 1 noobs beat world-famous experts.
>and some people can't do that consistently after hundreds of hours of practice.
You're mistaking practice for playtime. Some people just don't have the motivation to go to training mode and lab their problems out. Those that do, even if it's just for an hour out of a week, are vastly better at their respective game.
I'm convinced that you can't at this point. SF6's modern mode is probably the best attempt at making this genre accessible for mouth-breathers, but even then SF6's player numbers are slowly withering down, and I'm sure that most of those who still play the game aren't new to the genre.
>I'm sure that most of those who still play the game aren't new to the genre.
Yeah that applies to me, but I'm still curious about later fighters doing modern controls in their own moronic ways.
>GBVS:R removing motion inputs which might cause problems (I think it already has)
>Tekken 8's assist shit getting expanded and potentially being even more abusable
>Fatal Fury COTW's modern controls attempt possibly failing
The only way to make 8's assist mode broken would be to let players mash moves out of a blockstring that have a movement/stance component tied to it. For example electrics have a stance (crouch dash) tied to them, hence why you can't mash them during a blockstring, or optimizing crouch punishes with a crouch cancel which can sometimes be tricky depending on your character. I think it's just going to be a more customizable version of 7's assist mode, which had terribad combos and 18 frame godfists so at most you'd could mash rage art punish with it.
Why?
It's almost like you people never learnt a goddamn thing from usenet.
I think The granblue fighting game is already doing this?
World tour would have been a good way to introduce people to the mechanics slowly like an extended tutorial until they can handle more difficult opponents, but instead they had to make it an RPG where character stats are more important than skill. What a waste.
You can’t. “Casual players” hate losing. It’s a myth that competitive players are the ones who only care about winning. You can’t play a competitive multiplayer game without being able to handle losing, because, no matter how good you are, there will always be people who can beat you. “Casual players” can’t handle that, and that’s why they don’t play competitive multiplayer games.
your cope would have a point if battle royal as a genre didn't blow up and completely overshadow all fighting games
the guy you replied to is only half right
you can always blame something in battle royale games if you lose like poor rng for example, the same way you can blame your team in league or overwatch. losing is never fun but it's especially hard in fighting games because there's so very little you can blame. you can only call your opponent a tierprostitute or a scrub and be done with it, and then rot in your chair as you realize you suck at the game.
couple that with the fact that even if you lose in a battle royale game, you might still place top 10 or even get 2nd place. br matches last a long time so you get to "play" them a lot more too, scoring kills and whatnot. if you're losing in a fighting game, you're usually losing hard and getting pressured, and a lot of people don't like blocking mixups all game.
>you can always blame something in battle royale games if you lose like poor rng for example
as if theres a shortage of FGChimps doing that in their 1v1 game
blame has nothing to do with it
the reality is that the experience of playing the average fighting game is miserable
people will seethe endlessly over CSGO or MOBAs, they'll snap their keyboards in half, get their accounts banned but they'll still queue up for another match
while you have fighting games where you have hordes of shills telling you how great the latest turd is but they refuse to play it even once a day
Simple. All the females need BBC and all the males need to be black. FGC is all blacks and trannies.
More single player content. World Tour is a start but they need to go further.
Break the game down to individual components and then design a progression system around it. Basically a guided separate ranked mode.
At the lowest tiers, you have a sweep, a poke, and simple antiair button, and one jump-in attack. Once you get the hang of it, you can simply choose to advance to the next tier, incorporating your first simple bnb combo. Then an actual uppercut, and so on. You slowly work your way into unlocking your character's entire toolkit.
This is the approach Ceelows uses in his character tutorials for sfv and it's the simplest and most rewarding way to learn, because you get instant results. You just keep adding small steps at every stage progression.
Look at this and tell me it wouldn't work.
?si=JMpIOS70beLFLIgS&t=70
I believe you can achieve this without casualizing the mechanics of the game. Simply give players of all experience levels better tools to learn the game.
SF6 was a huge step in the right direction with a lot of the improvements they made to training mode, but I feel like it wasn't enough.
Imagine if after a set against someone you could select an option that lets you skim through a demo recording of the game(s) you played. You'd be able to select segments of the match and it would capture the inputs your opponent made, and then play it back at varying speeds of your choice. That way, you'd be able to pin point something your opponent does that really fricks you up, without having to tediously go into a replay, take notes, and then exit the replay and lab it. You can simply relive the experience live, and attempt to figure out a solution. I feel like this would greatly help both new players and veterans.
And another thing. I don't want to have to learn how to play my opponent's entire character, just to lab against one interaction. It's fine in Street Fighter 6, but in other games with autistic execution I wouldn't be able to lab certain things (especially if a character has 1 frame links or something)
Furthermore, a fricking in-game wiki or something that shows frame data and hitboxes without having to alt tab to your browser would also be nice. Don't NRS games have this feature? I haven't played them so I dunno.
This is a good idea, and parts of it have already been done before so it's feasible. Tekken 7 had a replay feature where you could see a punish for a certain move that you blocked, and i think you could practice against that move right away, and then gg +R had the jump into replay feature where you could just pop in at any moment and practice against whatever setup or neutral situation. Also yeah NRS games have frame data built in, not hitboxes if i recall though
>Tekken 7 replay feature
>+R
That's pretty cool. I played T7 casually with my friends for a bit while we were waiting for SF6. Both of those are features that seem like it wouldn't be challenging to implement in any game pretty much, and is something I would use frequently.
It's a shame that the big studios are focusing so much on simplifying mechanics rather than innovating in-game learning tools. Even with the modern controls on SF6 for example, my noob friends were still asking me questions all the time, as the game didn't teach them enough.
make your character's colors flash once actionable after performing a move and dim when in recovery, blockstun, or hitstun
make them more complex ,going for a wider audience is a mistake
>competitive game
>casual
you don't touch multiplayer with the casual-stick
make a silly story mode for them to spend their time in
hell, you could throw an entire strategy/board game on top of it where you can work toward lots of easier fights or a few harder fights for cosmetic rewards
Its hilarious how much this board pretends to consist of le hardcore troo gaymers only for them to literally shit themselves and mentally completely crumble when it comes to anything that exposes how bad they actually are, and they turn into the average snoygroid begging for an entire genre to become more "casual" and "inviting" like some fricking fat acne riddled purple haired prostitute begging for comics to inject even more "diversity" in 2023
aren't they already? what am I missing?