How do people rant and rave about 40k being great when the tank designs are this bad?
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How do people rant and rave about 40k being great when the tank designs are this bad?
I don't think a tank like that would survive for long in 40k, a Space Marine would destroy it.
Sir, what you have there is a blank canvas, and not even the best one at that. Baneblades and Rhinos are the superior vehicle to really make your own.
>the tank designs are this bad?
Isn't that the point? I thought the Imperium is supposed to use whatever low-tech crap they've been able to recover or cobble together, with the actually *good* stuff being long lost or near-unique artifacts?
Doesn’t mean it needs to look ugly. The macharius and malcador both look old a shit but are much more aesthetically pleasing.
>macharius
It has a twin-cannon turret, which would never work IRL due to space concerns. You wouldn't be able to fit people in the turret with both guns' loading mechanisms etc. Also superheavy tanks a fricking stupid idea and would never work.
>malcador
Also looks fricktarded. It's arguably worse due to being even bigger than the already huge and tall leman russ.
>It has a twin-cannon turret, which would never work IRL due to space concerns. You wouldn't be able to fit people in the turret with both guns' loading mechanisms etc. Also superheavy tanks a fricking stupid idea and would never work.
Aesthetic =/= realistic. Also multiple guns isn’t a space concern, it’s a weight/efficiency concern, which in the case of these frickhuge guns on frickhuge tanks would actually make sense. Load both guns and you can fire two shells in rapid succession then while you need maximum rate of fire you can just reload one gun and when combat slows down again you can load both guns in preparation for later.
Malcador is just a long Russ with a casemate up top and Macharius puts 80% of its mass on the last road wheels to the point it'd tip over backwards going uphill.
>Malcador is just a long Russ with a casemate up top
Which makes it look more balanced. There's conversions of it with a russ turret in place of its main casemate and it looks better than a russ
>Macharius puts 80% of its mass on the last road wheels to the point it'd tip over backwards going uphill.
I don't see how that's relevant
>I like X because it looks balanced
>I don't see how Y being balanced is relevant
Am I being trolled?
Aesthetically balanced you moron. Also Macharius isn't any more backheavy than any other rear turreted tank like the Merkava
All I can see is that the Merkava has a functional suspension system and the WW1 reject can't drive faster than 10kmph without shaking itself to pieces.
But, anon, the A E S T H E T I C S !
The point is WW1 aesthetics (and some Starship Troopers). The Leman Russ is iconic.
IIRC the Leman Russ was inspired by the Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade tank. The movie is from 1989, so it tracks
forgot pic
that tank is based on a WW1 design
>leman russ is primitive as frick
depends on what world builds them
>40k autoguns are worse than our current day assault riffle
autogun tech varies
>5km long behemoths in space load their macro cannons by hand using hundreds of slaves
some ships have them, others don't
too many lorelets cherrypick from a few sources or rely on shitty youtube videos, pretty much every "fact" in 40k has other "facts" directly contradicting it, there are many different ways to interpret the setting based on personal preference how much you care about "realism"
>depends on what world builds them
All russes shown suck and only real diference is main weapon system, that can be advanced stuff like plasma cannon or be laughtable like vanquisher that have slightly longer battle cannon that fire sub calibre round and for some reason it's some super rare and advanced pattern. There was also solar pattern during crusade but it was mostly about being void sealed.
>autogun tech varies
Fair
>some ships have them, others don't
Imperial Navy and Marines ships use slaves, tech is distrusted to load guns, Mechanicus ships are automated but that's small part of Imperium fleets.
>too many lorelets cherrypick from a few sources
This is why it's best to rely on "main" sources like main rulebook and codex, because you can find any type of bullshit in Black Library.
>low-tech crap
Assuming WH40k and not nu41k, the "low-tech crap" is still incredibly advanced by modern-day standards. Things are "low-tech" in WH40k compared to the state of human civilization 10 000-20 000 years ago, which was an age (the "Dark Age of Technology") that combined all the most absurd high-tech stuff of popular science fiction.
You're a fricking moron. You seem to be operating under the delusion that turrets and cannons are hand-fed or something, and that the superheavy tanks like the Baneblade doesn't have gravity suspensions and ultralight unobtanium armor, and so forth.
The Leman Russ is a repurposed tractor design, and it is kino. You are as clueless as you are soulless.
>the 40kid has arrived
Your identity revolves around a bad ponzi scheme of a wargame and you and your ilk deserve to be killed en masse. Historical wargaming is a filter designed to keep idiots like you from contaminating real games.
NTA and I don't play 40k but man, you have some issues.
This board was literally created to discuss warhammer because people were talking about it on /b/ too much in 2007. I genuinely don't know where MILITANT newhomosexuals like you come from, like the people on Ganker who hate crypto or people on Ganker who like videogames or people on Ganker who like 3DPD bawds. Why come to Ganker if you dislike the things Ganker likes, surely there's a place for you on facebook or whatever.
>or people on Ganker who like videogames
Mild kek
>, like the people on Ganker who hate crypto
god forbid people want to talk about business on the business board instead of gambling and scamming each other with fake money
It was literally created to discuss crypto, you moron. Go to reddit if you can't wrap your brain around that fact. /tg/ was created to discuss warhammer. These are the core fanbases on these boards, not whatever reddit newbies want to discuss. You aren't entitled to shit from Ganker.
>It was literally created to discuss crypto, you moron.
Then why the frick is it called "Ganker - Business & Finance"??? That's just fricking stupid. That would be like if Ganker were actually intended to just be about soda. I can't fricking stand you crypto morons.
>not whatever reddit newbies want to discuss. You aren't entitled to shit from Ganker.
Enough with the embarrassing newbie website war shit; it doesn't make you fit in.
>he thinks his fiat currency is real
>he thinks himself smart
usefull idiot is term made for you specifically
>The Leman Russ is a repurposed tractor design
Said no source ever. RT era Land Raider was said to be based on a tractor, but Russ came later, by which time the lore was changed. Since then the only farming equipment turned into combat vehicles are the Epic Siegfried (not-Sentinel) and Brunhilde (not-Griffon), which use the Land Crawler as their base.
>You seem to be operating under the delusion that turrets and cannons are hand-fed or something
I wouldn't be surprised. In 40k lore, spaceship cannons and shit are hand-loaded by thousands of people.
Yeah and it also works because of belief, that's why Imperium doesn't autolose space battles to factions that use autoloaders.
You are quite, quite moronic, my friend. It works because the writers says it works. Do not apply logic to 40k, for that only ruins 40k. Stop being autistic
Depends entirely on the ship. Some ships are automated up the wazoo while others, especially ones that cannot be fixed or lack resources to fix, rely on manpower.
Fair point, but I'm saying inefficiency is not something that's out of place in 40k. In fact, it's a running motif of the imperium.
Define "inefficient". It's canon that manpower is the one thing the Imperium has an abundance of, so they can just throw people at the problem until it goes away. It's not efficient if you value individual lives, but it's efficient when you look at the resources you got and what you need to achieve. In the munitorum manual it even says that commanders should try and recover lost materiel from the field, even if it leads to more losses. Because the equipment is worth more than the people. Troopers are to be discouraged from modifying their kits, so they'll be up to spec when handed to the next trooper.
Some of them are, some of them aren't. That's the point. You shouldn't operate under the delusion that because X then X=Y. If something clearly wouldn't work under one set of assumptions, those assumptions are clearly wrong based on what we know to be true.
In the Imperium, Macrocannons are sometimes operated en-masse. Also, in the Imperium, twin-cannons can be auto-loaded. It's not a hard concept to grasp.
>Assuming WH40k and not nu41k, the "low-tech crap" is still incredibly advanced by modern-day standards
Anon while some stuff like lasgun is pure bullshit tech, leman russ is primitive as frick and 40k autoguns are worse than our current day assault riffles, not to mention that some imperial planets don't even have gunpowder and use crossbows and bows because they don't even have muskets. 40k tech is in many ways very primitive untill it isn't.
>You're a fricking moron. You seem to be operating under the delusion that turrets and cannons are hand-fed or something, and that the superheavy tanks like the Baneblade doesn't have gravity suspensions and ultralight unobtanium armor, and so forth.
They are, every weapon on imperial guard tanks is manualy operated by dedicated dude, hand loaded. Even imperial ships you know 5km long behemoths in space load their macro cannons by hand using hundreds of slaves.
Baneblade don't have grav suspensions it's just 300t of junk. Armor isn't super thick.
We have statistics for multiple 40k vehicles, they are big, heavy, slow and overall suck.
>leman russ is primitive as frick
With its plasteel and ceramite hull, multi-fuel engine, high energy weapons, enough electronic controls for someone to hack into it and seize control of it from the crew, etc.?
>40k autoguns are worse than our current day assault riffles
By being caseless and described as being more advanced than modern firearms? Stub weapons are the equivalent of 20th century firearms, mainly used by primitive forces and as tetriary weapon systems.
>With its plasteel and ceramite hull
Reinforced cast plasteel hull, not even real compsite armor.
>multi-fuel engine
So like every tank including WW2 T-34?
>high energy weapons
As mentioned earlier las are bullshit advanced tech and exeption than norm, standard LR use normal battlecannon and subcalibre sabot rounds(WW2 tech) are considered very advanced shells.
>enough electronic controls for someone to hack into it and seize control of it from the crew, etc.?
You mean necron space technomagic? They could do same with Tiger or T-34 tank as turret is electrically controlled.
I give early cold war with laser rangefinder. It's also very heavy, super slow and overall suck.
>By being caseless and described as being more advanced than modern firearms? Stub weapons are the equivalent of 20th century firearms, mainly used by primitive forces and as tetriary weapon systems.
This is autogun taken from munitorum storage, intended for Imperial Guard. It have nice large ejection port, is heavy and overall suck.
40k was written by guys who have no idea about military or military technology and it shows.
>Reinforced cast plasteel hull
Reinforced with ceramite inserts.
>So like every tank including WW2 T-34?
A lot of WW2 tanks had gasoline engines, which limited their fuel choices more than diesel engines. Even diesel engines have a limit on what they can run on. Russ is described as running on "virtually any fuel" (5e codex, pg. 48).
>As mentioned earlier las are bullshit advanced tech and exeption than norm
Russes have lascannons as standard issue hull mount. Also have plasma cannons and multi-meltas as secondary options. And even the basic weapon option over these is a rapid fire rocket launcher.
>They could do same with Tiger or T-34 tank as turret is electrically controlled.
Only if you want to turn the turret. It doesn't let you drive the thing around, fire the gun, etc.
>It's also very heavy
It weight the same as an M1.
>super slow
Depends on the variant, but it has always been slow and even in the lore it's slow, since in practice it's more of an infantry tank.
>This is autogun taken from munitorum storage, intended for Imperial Guard.
Where does it say it's intended for Imperial Guard?
>It have nice large ejection port
Caseless weapons have ejection ports. How do you extract a cartridge from the chamber if there's a failure or you need to unload?
>Reinforced with ceramite inserts.
Still worth less than 300mm of steel, meaning it can be penetrated by
>Even diesel engines have a limit on what they can run on. Russ is described as running on "virtually any fuel" (5e codex, pg. 48).
So Russ will run on any fuel like T-34 and many ww2 and any cold war tank?
>Russes have lascannons as standard issue hull mount
Standard is heavy bolter.
>Only if you want to turn the turret. It doesn't let you drive the thing around, fire the gun, etc.
And Anrakyr can't drive around enemy tanks he can just hijack weapon system, he could 100% shoot from Panther tank dunno how T-34 firing system worked, but he still could do same thing to ww2 tank as he did to LR.
>It weight the same as an M1.
Yes one of heaviest MBT that is also fast because it have actuall engine and better armour and weapon than Russ, you could consider basic abrams cannon to be vanquisher but better.
>since in practice it's more of an infantry tank.
It's not, Russess are used in MBT roles and organised in all armour no infantry regiments, by no means they are infantry tanks.
>Where does it say it's intended for Imperial Guard?
In book and 2 other because entire war take place on fortress that serve as guard weapon storage for Segmentum Obscurus. This is why couple million workers and local pdf under influence of cardinal were able to fight years of siege, because they had weapon, ammo, vehicles, tanks, artillery in store including super rare advanced shit like Valdor tank hunters.
>Caseless weapons have ejection ports
Sorry annon but that's standard riffle for cased cartridges, caseless weapons have diferent operating system and don't use massive ejection ports, because ejection port is to be used only in case of missfire, like it's with G11. Autogun is just standard gun firing standard ammo and ejecting casses.
By every criteria leman russ suck.
>Still worth less than 300mm of steel
Source(s): Dude, trust me.
>like T-34 and many ww2 and any cold war tank?
I know reading is hard, but at least try.
>he still could do same thing to ww2 tank as he did to LR.
If we're just talking about the main gun for a single shot. Now calculate in all the other weapons too.
>Yes one of heaviest MBT
Original M1 is the lightest of NATO MBTs and the same 60 tons as a Russ. Following variants, as well of tanks like Leopard 2 and Challenger 2, are much heavier than 60 tons.
>that is also fast because it have actuall engine
By that metric, the Predator has an even actualler engine, since it's faster than all M1 variants off-road and faster than A2 on-road.
>better armour and weapon than Russ, you could consider basic abrams cannon to be vanquisher but better.
I'm sure you have actual numbers to back this all up.
>It's not, Russess are used in MBT roles
Just like the S-tank is an assault gun used in MBT rule. As I said "in practice".
>organised in all armour no infantry regiments
And IG never deploys a single regiment to a conflict, they all operate as combined arms. And even in real life infantry tanks were deployed in other roles.
>because entire war take place on fortress that serve as guard weapon storage
Not everything in a military storage is meant for front line forces or even for army issue. Our military has rifles meant for reservists to train their skills, not meant to be issued for soldiers. We also stored 19th century model bolt rifles till the 90s.
>Autogun is just standard gun firing standard ammo and ejecting casses.
Try being less of a lorelet.
>like it's with G11.
G11 is not the model of all caseless weapons, anon. Even cased weapons can have weird ejection systems, like the F2000s tube that spits casings out from above the muzzle.
>Source(s): Dude, trust me.
It's from the OG Imperial Armour, which gave technical specs for every vehicle in it in actual real world terminology. Another one of the highlights is the fact that a Russ (max speed 30-34 kph on road 18-22 off depending on variant) is slower than a Sherman (35-48 kph on road 24-32 off).
Sure. Now take into account the fact that this tank that can apparently barely move can mount energy weapons that would require vast amounts of energy that obviously needs to be stored or produced. All this moaning about rivets and top speeds and whatnot and yet people instantly accept fricking plasma canons. Imperial technology is magic in one moment and WW1 shitbox in another. They're selling a vibe, stop thinking about it.
It's called a battery.
A battery that can power laser cannons that are stronger than the main gun? Do you have any notion what kind of energy that would require? And is also small enough to fit inside? It is laughably unrealistic. Also, if your battery can hold that kind of power, why not just make the tank electric? I know why. Because crude smoke belching mass produced machine is the vibe they're trying to sell to the kids with male power fantasies.
Well, lascannons are used on tripod and powered from battery by Imperial guard, putting infantry heavy weapon on vehicle isn't hard and we know that Imperium is moronic.
Just treat leman Russ as british version of technical, just instead of putting modern weapon on pickup they put it on WW2 heavy tank.
it wouldn't be nearly as bad if it was ripping off a ww2 tank. the problem is that it's ripping off a ww1 tank, and an extremely ugly one at that.
>it wouldn't be nearly as bad if it was ripping off a ww2 tank
Way ahead of you anon
the dorn wouldn't be that bad if it wasn't huge and didn't have the stupid twin gun, but even then it suffers from the stupid tracks. sponsons are a curse on imperial vehicles like the red thirst for blood angels.
I don't mind the coaxial, but they probably could have made it a stubber or something smaller
> suffers from the stupid tracks
>sponsons are a curse
C'mon, anon. You can't take these things away. They're essential 40k aesthetics. IG fans would kick up online stink before they bought it anyway.
I think by stupid twin gun he meant alt weapon.
>That's a .50 cal coaxial MG. A LMG or HMG coaxial gun is common in IRL tanks, but a coaxial Auto cannon like the Rogal Dorn has isn't common.
To be fair 40k autocannon is just heavy MG. It's even used by imperial guard infantry on tripod or by marines in hand. It's by all means heavy machine gun but better.
My main problem with dorn coax is it just look bad, gun mantle is too big and coax is too far away from main gun. Then they make it super long gun, mount on predator and pretend it's same as guard .50BMG+ for 25 years.
Sci-fi vehicle designers decided decades ago that two main cannons together was cool for whatever reason.
See the Type 61 Tank from UC Gundam or the Mammoth Tank from C&C. GW(FW?)'s own take on it is the Fellblade tank for Marines.
1 gun good!
2 gun double good?
The first gun shoots the science, the second gun shoots the fiction.
Why cant I find any of these shits in 1/144
Make it three.
"Sink the Bismarck" playing quietly in the background
The way the Autocannon is used and its stats indicate it's absolutely not a HMG but better - that goes to the Heavy Bolter. The main difference being, for better or worse, infantry in 40k need to engage with targets that an anti-infantry weapon wouldn't cut against and an anti-vehicle weapon would be overkill, so you see a lot more mid of the range anti-materiel slapped where we'd only use anti-infantry.
That to say I agree with you that the Autocannon being used as a coax is fine purely because there's things out there in the setting that a coax .50 won't do shit against.
Anon, Autocannon is space HMG, heavy bolter is also HMG but autocannon is just better. Imperium just have multiple HMG in spess like they have multiple assault riffles in spess lasgun, autogun, boltgun. Not to mention soviets got 12,7 DShK and 14,5 KVP at same time.
Look at this pic or find heresy marine with autocannon or chaos terminator with 2 barrel autocannon and tell me it's not hmg.
no. space HMG is space HMG, it's called the heavy stubber.
Malign ye not the blessed autocannon.
I thought the autocannon was supposed to be like a 20mm. they were always shit though since they didn't have enough ap to kill power armor.
it seems to be between 20-60mm depending on who is drawing it
their effectiveness in lore also varies greatly
i miss the days when ONE troops choice was a command squad(meltagunners) and 5 squads(w meltagun vets specialists and corporals) with three special weapons teams (melta guns) and three heavy weapons teams (autocannon)
and your army was SIX of those. with a big fat command platoon.
Autocannon looks like some kind of anti-aircraft Flak 38, see how they use them in Hydras. Maybe between 20 mm or 37mm kind of ammo.
I've never noticed the machine gunner on the back of this thing, that's even stupider looking than the massive fricking hole they left in the model
>the stupid twin gun
You mean the thing that's common on real world tanks?
That's a .50 cal coaxial MG. A LMG or HMG coaxial gun is common in IRL tanks, but a coaxial Auto cannon like the Rogal Dorn has isn't common.
If GW based the design on any IRL tanks it might have been the prototype Centurion with the 20mm auto cannon.
>If GW based the design on any IRL tanks it might have been the prototype Centurion with the 20mm auto cannon.
Referring specifically the presence of the auto cannon here btw, the Rogal Dorn has many design elements from many WW2 tanks in it.
That's a penis.
>If GW based the design on any IRL tanks it might have been the prototype Centurion with the 20mm auto cannon.
AMX-30
Also a possibility but a lot of the design features on the Rogal Dorn are based on WW2 tanks and both the Centurion prototype with its exterior barrel autocannon and the Rogal Dorn having the same feature seem like an obvious inspiration.
Both ranks also feature rivets around the mantlet for the autocannon, though such a feature isn't unique to the prototype Centurion.
hmm
>It's from the OG Imperial Armour, which gave technical specs for every vehicle in it in actual real world terminology.
And yet, they're still competitive with necron and eldar hypertech and don't die from them sneezing in their general direction. So you have to either accept that imperial designs are pretty fricking advanced, or that necrons somehow operate on a level comparable to 21st century human armies.
In fairness, lorewise Eldar, Necron and Tau vehicles are relatively often portrayed as wiping Imperial vehicles off the map with no issue. The tabletop is another question entirely because it has to rely on an actual functional game.
All that to say Imperial tanks using advanced space future materials and tech and also being designed like shit (thus holding back their effectiveness) are both valid aspects of Imperial tanks.
>or that necrons somehow operate on a level comparable to 21st century human armies.
Correct.
Setting was written by britbongs who never saw firearm in their entire life, so you can have super advanced weapons that works by raping reality and making laws of physics their b***h and at same time being weaker than cold war era weapons.
Like futuristic railgun style gun that fire monomolecular discs at super high speed and rate of fire have not great accuracy and low range because barrel is not rifled.
ntayrt
>no driver listed under crew
does the machine spirit drive the tank?
Ah yes the meme that proves absolutely nothing beyond that no one has any idea how measure RHAe actually works.
>300mm of armor
uhuh.
The most powerful cannon ever mounted on a production tank developed around 13.4MJ of energy to send a 23 kilo projectile through a T-62's UFP from two kilometers. If said projectile hit a seventy ton vehicle straight on, at point blank range, without so much as denting it, you might move it back about a foot.
The Leman Russ has repeatedly endured impacts which has moved it several meters[1].
While modern armor is resilient, there's a difference between a meter of NERA deforming a penetrator until it can be stopped by DU/ceramic backing and the armor not only absorbing the shot entirely but the welding seams and crew being perfectly intact after being hit with the equivalent of a 16" APHE round. the fact is, 40K material science is so good that the Mechanicus doesn't need to beat around the bush with advanced protection mechanisms when a simple slab of ceramic will stop 99% of all the threats the tank will ever face.
[1]https://www.reddit.com/r/40kLore/comments/auasky/on_the_armor_of_leman_russ_tanks/
The issue is that the Russ's ungainy hull geometry means this super-material has limited coverage over its form which is not only reflected in-game by the fact any heavy weapon can tap its arse, but is also commented on in-story that is tracks are verifiability *not* made of ceramite-composite meaning weapons that can't physically punch through its front armour can track it and then flank it.
>reflected in-game by the fact any heavy weapon can tap its arse
Back in the good old days when we still had AV the Leman Russ had the toughest possible front armour in the game that was literally untouchable by anything S7 or below.
>is tracks are verifiability *not* made of ceramite-composite meaning weapons that can't physically punch through its front armour can track it and then flank it
Just like literally every tank that has ever been made and will ever be made? Do you think there's a way to mitigate that other than literal magic?
not having absolutely enormous tracks would probably help
>Back in the good old days when we still had AV the Leman Russ had the toughest possible front armour in the game that was literally untouchable by anything S7 or below.
And it was in same class and Land Raider that had armor counting as "300mm of steel".
>Abnettverse
>reddit
Covering the top band of the tracks? The Baneblade does it.
Vanquisher looks better imo
I agree with the point you are making, but come on, this is absurd, if it survives shots that push it back several meters it means upper front playe is equivalent to several meters of RHA
take this ESL shitposting to /k/ so I can laugh at it there
>Baneblade don't have grav suspensions
Yes it does, as evidenced by the fact that it doesn't sink straight into the ground.
>Armor isn't super thick.
It doesn't have to be, because it is built out of unobtanium.
The Imperium is inherently anachronistic and you're a moron for not understanding the idea of a feudal plate made out of vibranium or adamantium or whateverium.
>Yes it does, as evidenced by the fact that it doesn't sink straight into the ground.
Anon we have tracked vehicles weighting 10 000t that don't sink into ground in real life, way more than 300-400t of baneblade. Or we just have grav suspension in real life.
>It doesn't have to be, because it is built out of unobtanium.
And they made mistake of comparing "adamantium and plasteel" armor to normal steel making it dogshit.
>we have tracked vehicles weighting 10 000t that don't sink into ground in real life
Sure, Bagger 293 is about 14,000t and technically a tracked vehicle, but at top speed of 500 meters/hour it would non be very useful for any form of warfare.
https://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Capitol_Imperialis
Don't know what engines it have, can't find info but if we go just by power consumption it have less than 0,5 hp/t so no wonder it's slow, tanks have 15-20 hp/t even WW2 heavy tanks had more than 10 hp/t with exeption of british infantry tanks but this were supposed to be slow so infantry can keep up with them, just instal better engines to move 14 000t if you want it to drive faster.
Not to mention that's nice goalpost, argument was about sinking into ground not something weighting 45 times more than baneblade being slow.
It was the only real life vehicle in 10000t range I could think of. If you had something else in mind, I'd be happy to know.
From 10k ranges it will be hard to find anything other BWE because I don't think anybody need other vehicles that large, but still 10 000+ t vehicles exist, drive and don't sink into ground.
There are hoever haul trucks that when loaded weight around 600t and can drive 60km/h, heaviest I could find was 840t loaded, 360t empty and could do 60km/h when loaded.
For Comparision Baneblade is 320t and can do 25km/h on road. So vehicles 2 times heavier than baneblade, that are also way faster and don't sink into ground despite having 4 wheels
instead of tracks.
>You're a fricking moron. You seem to be operating under the delusion that turrets and cannons are hand-fed or something
Tell me, o wise and intelligent anon, if double barreled cannons on tanks are actually a sensible idea, why hasn't a tank been made with such a setup IRL?
hurrrrr I come
You dumbass, they only abandoned the idea because some idiots in the pentagon told them to because it would mog whatever bullshit moneymaking tanks they produced. GW sculptors unironically make better tank designs than real world tank designers, something I'm sure
,
, and
would agree with. Therefore stuff like the fellblade is actually a good tank design, the US should design and field superheavy tanks with twin-linked cannon turrets
>something I'm sure
Yes it does, as evidenced by the fact that it doesn't sink straight into the ground.
>Armor isn't super thick.
It doesn't have to be, because it is built out of unobtanium.
The Imperium is inherently anachronistic and you're a moron for not understanding the idea of a feudal plate made out of vibranium or adamantium or whateverium. would agree with.
Don't drag me into whatever tank autism pissing duel you're trying to instigate or false-flag here.
This whole thread is tank autism.
tank autism = best autism?
Twin-guns of equal calibre takes up a lot of space, especially with modern very large calibre guns, however just because you have one gun, it doesnt neccessarily follow that the space or weight savings will actually allow you to fire a burst of two rounds from a single automatically loaded gun, especially as said twin guns might be automatically loaded and fire just as fast. For our context, weight and space efficiency is very important, we only fight one another at around the same technological level, and our level of warfare, intensity and scale, and engagement distances/doctrine is all very different to the setting in 40k.
You did also get twin, or multiple "gun" designs irl, strictly experimentally, but more if you include recoilless rifles: VT-1, M50"ontos", R3-106, type60, raketenautomat, U-SH405.
Then the issue of a smaller co-axial gun is an entirely different one, and much more common irl, and frankly more practical. You see co-axial or secondary guns on interwar and some WW2 tanks, which are designed to be more anti-infantry. The T1/M6A1-2 had a co-axial 37mm, the TOG and Churchill I both had a hull mounted howitzer, the Maus had a 75mm co-ax, the Chi-riII had a hull gun etc
Much more common for more modern tanks are autocannons: Centmk1 (20mm), AMX30 (30mm), AMX-32/40 (30mm), Turm III (30mm), BMD4+BMP3 (30mm). And if you include roof or alternate mountings then theres the MBT-70/Kpz-70, M60AMBT, Leo2k, T-72M2 etc.
If you include twin (or more) autocannons then pretty much half of all historical SPAAs.
Furthermore many future designs are looking to implement 30mm roof turrets.
Imo, in the context of 40k, maximum firepower and frick the cost or efficiency, as well as presumably much more advanced systems+different requirements, all make going back or developing on real trends we had irl much more practical. Also ngl the biggest problem with the dorn is not the co-axial, but the weirdly mounted hull-meltas, and the gigantic hull gatling gun.
Lol secondary. None of the IG codices or anywhere else for that matter claims that the leman Russ has unobtainium super armor or is really in any way superior to an early Cold War tank. It benefits from being easy to manufacture all across the galaxy and still being a tank. The idea that it (or any of the other imperial tanks) are actually miracle weapons isn’t really backed up anywhere.
The Russ is an AI-laden tank with engines that run on literally anything. It's a fricking masterpiece of engineering.
Okay cool, doesn't change the fact that the actual design of the tank would be laughed at in the real world. Put all that AI shit and magic engines on design that looks like an abrams and then I'll be impressed
You do understand this is a science fantasy game that runs on rule of cool, right?
why did they make it stupid and ugly instead of cool then?
it almost makes me miss the Grav Tank designs in Renegade Legion
>no turret
Worse than the Russ
"not that there's anything wrong with that..."
Tank destroyers are a bad joke
Get better taste.
>in the real world
Frick off
>The Russ is an AI-laden tractor with engines that run on literally anything.
THAT's a fricking masterpiece of engineering.
it's a Hoyt-Clagwell
Depending on where you get your Leman Russ from in-universe it could be an ultra high tech future wondermachine or a T-34-tier shitbox with enough electrical systems to run the ignition and a few lightbulbs and manual everything else.
It also gets mogged by every other (non-Ork) tank in the setting because, like all Guard equipment, it's a cheap piece of shit that's designed to be easily maintainable and mass-producible over effective. That's not to say it doesn't have components inside it depending on the pattern but even in-setting it's not actually good in any way except being cheap. This, of course, is the point, so I actually like it because of that, it represents its theme extremely well and the fact that it's a slow heavily armoured killbox perfectly encapsulates the character of the Guard far better than a more streamlined, generic sci-fi tank ever could.
Which is something I think a lot of Anons in these threads forget. Guard and Navy kit is actually, legitimately bad within the setting because it's purely designed for quantity over quality - every other faction except Orkz (and factions using the same stuff like Chaos and Genestealer Cults) tend to not only perform significantly better but also incorporate more modern and scifi concepts - though that still doesn't cure the fact that Jes Goodwyn and the other sculpting team makes these things with far more of an eye towards aesthetic than technologically robust design.
Yeah, that tanks is precisely what it turned me off away from 40k early on before getting that was the point.
Tanks? I ain't using tanks.
God you had to choose the worse daemon engine? Not a brass scorpion or blood slaughterer? You had to choose blowjob dragons?
The worst daemon engine is the Heldrake.
>Goatse bird
Lol butt nozzles. Its initial rules were amazing and deleting entire squads of unsuspecting marines was great fun while it lasted.
The stubby, femurless legs piss me off. It's like the sculptor saw a picture of a bat, noticed that the legs *seem* short, and tried to mimic that, without realizing that bat legs aren't actually as short as they seem and they can walk around just fine.
Flyers should not be playable in 40k
Kid should not post on 4c
How do you survive this situation if you're the enforcer?
Run. That thing is fast and nearly invincible as far as you're concerned and it's made even worse for being Khornate. If you're feeling particularly brave you could try and shoot it with that inferno pistol of his but it's terrible odds.
You probably don't.
That said, at least in WH40k, the Arbites are actually fairly well-equipped, but if it gets to this point where the enforcer is fighting Defilers with Inferno pistols, the Fortress-Precinct better be under direct fricking attack, and the arbitrators do have straight-up tanks.
When the shit really hits the fan on a planet, the Arbites are the first line of defense for the wider Imperium. Sadly it rarely gets the exposure it should have in media, it's always "Planetary defense force fights rebels" followed by "Imperial guard fights Chaos", but somewhere between those two was "Fortress-Precinct roll Land Raiders out in mass suppressive duties."
And there's supposed to be at least one Fortress-Precinct on every single world, although I can only assume that that can't be reasonably enforced on nascent worlds, new colonies, and feral worlds.
MOST fortress-precincts don't have tanks at all, let alone Land Raiders lmao. Maybe on some giant hive worlds but definitely not ordinary feudal / agri-worlds like most of the Imperium.
The Arbites' mission is to watch the Planetary Government for signs of disloyalty, not be a planetwide police-force. Don't usually need tanks to arrest a few senators who live next-door.
THUSLY!
>he doesn't want sloppy from the dark mech
A lot of 40k is retro-futrism, especially the imperium. You either like it or you dont
I love the derpiness/shittiness of 40k tanks. The Land Raider looks like a fricking WWI tank
Then why do other 40k fans treat the land raider, leman russ etc as "legitimate tank designs" and treat it all so seriously?
Legitimate design how?
They will defend the land raider as being a good tank design because "it works in-setting" and think superheavy tanks are a good idea. Many 40k fans are unironic wehraboos who think the maus and ratte superheavy tank designs would have won nazi germany the war. They are fricking idiots and deserve to be glued to a chair, have their eyelids cut off and forced to listen to a thousand lectures explaining why they are wrong as they are fed through a tube
Land Raider works because belief affects reality in 40k and humanity's passive psychic field powers the tank because it reminds people of Based British WW1 tanks. The same reason swords are better than guns at fighting daemons.
Humans are not orks.
They work in a similar way. That's what causes all the faith powers etc.
Basic non-force swords and melee weapons work better against daemons than guns, Noticing that is even a plot point in Horus Heresy books when marines start fighting daemons, and it's caused by beliefs and feelings affecting reality through the Warp.
>That's what causes all the faith powers
Faith powers like Goge Vandire surviving getting shot at by the Brides? Or the faith powers that protect priests and chaplains, the ones stores in their rosarius?
In Inquisitor, in the bit about Thorians, they explain the Emperor's spirit wandering the warp and granting portions of his power to loyal followers, giving rise to miracles and saints. There's also the whole thing about people not understanding technology and attributing stuff it does to magic.
Vandire had a tech force field but Sisters have actual magical faith powers. Then again, even space marines can benefit from the extra power of basic swords and flamers against daemons.
HH8:
>Combat reports of early encounters between the Legiones Astartes and the entities of the Warp reveal a peculiar facet of the nature of the Daemon. It has been noted that for some ill-known reason, Daemons appear to be all but immune to advanced projectile and energy based weaponry in their freshly manifested state. Attacks of a more primitive nature on the other hand, such as the hacking of a blade or the setting of flame to such a creature, have been reported to have an exaggerated effect.
>Vandire had a tech force field but Sisters have actual magical faith powers.
Just like priests and chaplains totally have faith bubbles and not a tech force field.
>HH8:
Same book also talks about how the legions just threw everything at the problem and if something felt like it worked, kept doing it. Doesn't mean it was actually effective. Like how WW2 troops poured concrete over their glacis to give extra protection, even though in reality the rough surface made it less likely for an incoming shell the glance off. But the bonus to morale was worth doing it.
The effectiveness of swords and fists and other primitive weapons against daemons compared to guns has never been doubted or contradicted in 40k lore. Humanity's belief in brute muscular strength makes it real in the warp. Even in "modern day", the mechanics are known.
>The daemon was harmed by the weapons of eternity, this we knew. The heavy barrage of las-fire from the parapets, cutting through the blood-rain in boiling volleys, could slow or inconvenience them, but to kill a daemon one had to return to the primordial methods of fist and blade. They had been spawned from our oldest wars and our oldest hates, and we would never drag ourselves away from that primal genesis.
You should have a nice day you autistic homosexual. You have no understanding of mood, tone, themes, or any other concept that requires a high functioning brain. Go back to eating your own shit, SPED
This is you: "Waah, Waah, I lost an argument." Learn to lose gracefully you baby.
In Legacy it's noted that las-fire would puncture flesh, but relied on shock over soft tissue damage. A shotgun was far more efficient at fighting a daemon that doesn't feel pain, as it'd cripple limbs and simply Dead Space them by making them unable to function.
And, again, perceived properties of something don't always reflect reality. Like how soldiers say the new cartridge sucks, because they totally hit that enemy 300 yards away and they just kept going like it was nothing.
That excerpt is from a Custodes' point of view, they're the best supersoldiers in 40k so they have a much more objective view on what works than some grunts complaining about new cartridges.
The dedicated anti-daemon hive fleet uses mostly ranged weapons.
but how many of those "ranged weapons" are actually firing living organisms that then use their own teeth and claws and barbs to do damage?
In any case Hive Fleet Kronos fights under extra strong Shadow in the Warp so the daemons are weakened by that. A normal human or space marine doesn't, but can still do more damage to daemons with a sword or fist than with a bolter.
>The same reason swords are better than guns at fighting daemons.
Swords and guns work equally well against daemons. Force weapons need to be wielded by a psyker, as they channel their own powers through the blade, but there's also psychic ranged weapons, like psilencers, psybolts, etc.
You have to go back
Stop seething and pick up a Horus Heresy book
>pick up a Horus Heresy book
Are these fans in the thread with us right now?
They are, and they are all going to choke on their own blood when all 40k fans are dragged through the fricking streets for being such fricking morons, they shall be dragged from their homes and families and publicly tortured and executed, made examples of, so that wargaming will be saved. And my ancestors will smile, knowing I have brought justice to the world. You will beg for mercy as your entrails are pulled from your stomach and wrapped around your neck to be tied to a tree. The crows shall feast on your body, and your memory will eventually be forgotten entirely. 40k will die. I will make sure of it.
Volound?
Just admit Germany was the good guys and there will be an end to the horror.
German superheavies would never work on the battlefield. They would get bombed and shelled into oblivion instantly. 40k frequently underestimates the power and importance of artillery and air power in warfare, even ww2 era warfare. And yes, this also applies to the American T28, which is also moronic, although slightly less so due to being intended to be used as a siege vehicle
You won’t do shit. Go back to whatever dead thread is dedicated to whatever dead game you like
The Land Raider is a WWI tank driving backwards
Gentlemen, I would like to propose a new superheavy tank.
Does anyone know if you can still get these things? I remember they were a garage kit - or something like that - but I've never been able to find someone to buy from.
The weirdest thing? The... er, "Tracks" on the front wheels of this thing are actually based off a super cursed design for a mine clearing vehicle the germans thought up during WW2. Just super fricking thick and heavy treads.
Meanwhile the allies decided to get medieval on the mines asses.
And here is a question: guess which one is more efficient, effective and also easier to maintain and replace.
Because they forgot the imperium is just a bunch of moronic techno-barbarians scavenging whatever they can with no idea how any of it works.
Nobody does this.
You literally have people in this thread saying exactly that
>what 3e land raider could've been
Shame.gif
I hate this thing so much. I refuse to believe that anyone likes it beyond:
>lol it's so goofy I love it "ironically"!!!
>umm it's a reference to the original model and that means it's exempt from criticism and you have to like it
>A Mk1 Heavy tank with lasers
I fail to see the issue
not any dumber then a land raider
>then
>not a land raider
it is a land raider you undereducated zoomershit
It reminds me of this one flippable RC car I had as a kid and therefore I like it. It's one of the only marine vehicles I do like, even.
Everything in 40k is stupid, that's the point.
It's an adquired taste. Aesthetics above function.
GW are British company, and you know Brits are about their tank designs.
history walks in circles
They invented shit like blowpipe, MANPADS that instead of IR seeker, you know, point at plane and shoot, used MCLOS guidance where operator had to manually guide rocket with joystick to hit speeding plane, spoiler alert it had like 5% effectivness and somehow, brits used mclos(outdated ATGM guidance system) to make it low cost, but somehow it costed 1,5 more as way more effective IR seeking Stinger.
Now they also use shit like starstreak that is just beam ridding ATGM(with no anti tank capabilities) where operator have to mark target with laser and keep it on target untill it hit(thankfully this one is fast). Rest of the world isn't moronic and just use IR heat seekers that lauch missle when it locks on plane heat signature and just follows it.
Not to mention shit like brits holding on to rifled tank guns while rest of world switched to objectively better smoothbore cannons during late cold war.
Not to mention L85.
Why is brit weapon design such a fricking joke?
>Now they also use shit like starstreak that is just beam ridding ATGM(with no anti tank capabilities) where operator have to mark target with laser and keep it on target untill it hit(thankfully this one is fast).
Unlike most MANPADS the Starstreak was designed specifically to murder attack helicopters at close ranges instead of being a more general-purpose weapon that can also be used to attack fixed-wing aircraft, and so far combat in Ukraine would suggest that the design philosophy is sound. Because it's a beam-riding missile it's essentially immune to countermeasures, and because it is so absurdly, ridiculously fast the operator only needs to keep the target in his sights for a few seconds (and because the target probably won't know they're under attack until their helicopter is hit they will be just casually flying along instead of actively manoeuvring).
>you know Brits are about their tank designs.
Bad
>and you know Brits are about their tank designs.
Best tanks of the first half of the WW2?
slow
ugly
worse than t-34
>worse than t-34
LOL
LMAO even
Go frick yourself zigger
The 38(t) conquered France and led Barbarossa. The Matilda got stuck in a ditch at Arras.
Was Brit tanks bad? I always liked the Churchill.
>Was Brit tanks bad?
Not exactly, They weren't suited for tank duels, but the best way to fight tanks is detroying factories where they are made and people who will drive them
their early war tanks were garbage designed for the previous war. their later tanks like the comet were better but they didn't make many of them.
Designs were generally OK, but a combination of rearming after Dunkirk and poor industrial planning/performance meant that those OK designs were hitting the field sometimes years later than they should have done.
they also had to churn out ships and airplanes, tanks were less of a priority
Most of the times yes.
They got crusier tanks, fast but light that when came in contact with german medium tanks got rekt, then they had infantry tanks that had proper armor but usually weak weapon and were slow as frick, so could easly be outflanked by normal medium tanks. Churchill designwise was shit had weak cannons but had cool options like crocodile or avre so it get cool points for that.
Once they get good tank in form of M4 Sherman they made it worse, entire firefly thingie USA didn't need it because they had 76mm version, they just left it in UK during normandy landing for logistic purposes(1 shell calibres for tank units instead of 2) and shipped them when encountered tigers and panthers, meanwhile bongs put big gun sideways and expected loader to make it fit and load gun from weird angles in weird positions. Later in world they made ok tanks in form of Cromwell and Comet was good. But for most of the war brits got bad tanks and outdated tank doctrine.
>history walks in circles
You reminded me of this.
I am a military history enthusiast and I'm also a scale model hobbyist mainly with tanks
I don't see the problem
Yeah, I think the vehicle kits in 40k are overpriced and not as detailed as they could be
Yeah I hate how the scale of the vehicles make absolutely no sense
play historical settings or at least use models of real tanks if you want actually good looking tanks in your game. Design teams of highly trained engineers make much better looking stuff that actually makes sense
Appeasing military nerds is a fruitless endeavor because they will never be happy and will resort to rivet counting for a reason to be angry. They will not buy your products. Instead you make tanks with big cannons so people will go "wow, look at that big cannon" and buy your tank. GW realized this years ago.
See
>macharius climbs up a hill
>it falls backwards
We like things that don't look moronic anon
Do you not know how hills work? Do you think a pickup truck can't back up a hill?
Do you know how center of mass works?
Do you think a turret, even a rear-mounted one, which is a fraction of the vehicles weight, is going to make it do a backflip on a hill?
>Do you think a turret, even a rear-mounted one, which is a fraction of the vehicles weight
Anon Turret is like 30+% of vehicle weight.
Amrams 65t have 22t turret, T-72 45t with 17t turret, Leopard 2 60t with 21t turret.
It's not fraction, it's more than 1/3rd of vehicle weight.
>a turret, even a rear-mounted one, which is a fraction of the vehicles weight
M1A1 turret is almost half of the vehicle's weight.
Even on the Merkava the "rear-mounted" turret is quite close to the center of the tank with the engine at the front. So it balances the thing out. On the Macharius, not only is the turret itself positioned completely behind the center of the tank, the engine is behind the turret. And a good portion of the rear of the vehicle hangs behind the last road wheel. Only thing that's at the front half of the vehicle is the driver and bow machine gunner. That is not a very balanced design.
There have been numerous rear-turreted and massively rear-heavy designs and prototypes over the years and none of them were cancelled because the tank would flip over while driving up a hill.
Significant weight imbalance causes issues with suspension, it does not flip the tank over when it drives up a curb.
Wonder if the fact that they have the ENGINE IN FRONT OF THE TURRET TO BALANCE IT OUT has anything to do with that. Probably now.
The Typ180 was mid-engined, and you could just balance it with heavier armour on the front or even counterweights in the front, it would be perfectly feasible. If effectiveness is your issue you might as well complain about riveted, flat metal plates instead of sloped, ERA-covered composites and what looks like a twin 180mm gun.
>porshe design
This vehicle was prototype in regime that decided building 180t tank during fuel shortages is a good idea. Porshe only adopted vehicle, Ferdinant was created only because Porshe produced around 80 chassis for Tiger of his design before competition he lost badly ended. Because he was friend with Hitler his shitty design was repurposed into tank destroyer, it couldn't flip over while driving hill because engine would caught fire and transmission would broke moment it tried to drive on said hill, it even caught fire while trying to drive up "hill" on Russian steppes.
Also
>multiple prototype designs
Makes you wonder why it never get out of prototype phase.
>Makes you wonder why it never get out of prototype phase.
Probably not because of backflips when climbing hills
Realism fans get the rope. All of them.
British tanks have always been hideous until they copied continental designs for the Chally.
Bad tank design, exaggerated features and 80s movies references is what made 40K a great game untill early 2000s.
>the tank designs are this bad?
Yes, but they are ironically bad so that makes them great
Ben, no one cares about your bad photoshops, stop posting them.
things your average bongoloid has never once seen in his life:
>a real gun
>a well designed tank
>a beautiful woman
fiction follows life or whatever the saying is
> Imperial Armor Volume 2, p. 27
>The Predator's armour is constructed in of three main layers. The inner layer provides the main protection. It's a bonded ceramite/adamanitum alloy which provides protection equal to over five times the same width as conventional steel, whilst being lighter. The second layer is a reinforcing thermoplas with sub-dermal energy dissipation fibre mesh, providing protection against extremes of heat and radioactivity. The outer layer is a non-magnetic acrylic identification sheath. In all, this corresponds to over 200mm of conventional steel on the front of the vehicle.
Armor thickness specs
>Turret: 65mm
>Superstructure: 65mm
>Hull: 55mm
>Gun Mantlet: 65mm
>In all, this corresponds to over 200mm of conventional steel on the front of the vehicle.
lmao what
i thought these guys were supposed to be autists
The KV2 turret actually has the room to fit the breech, recoil system and the loaders needed for a 152mm gun. The Russ turret is comically undersize for any of those things, let alone all of them.
my favorite thing about 40k vehicles is how on a lot of rhino models the side doors clearly overlap with the suspension so you wouldn't even be able to get in and out of the things without climbing over it.
>side doors clearly overlap with the suspension
How so?
look at how the road wheels would clearly be taller than the hole where the door is if they were fully modeled. then remember that the wheels have to be attached to the hull somehow.
>look at how the road wheels would clearly be taller than the hole where the door is
From that angle, yes. From a flat side view, not so much.
>the wheels have to be attached to the hull somehow
I suspect that's what the boxes behind the wheels are. Ones that are beneath the hull. Probably hold individual suspension for each wheel.
>the amount of moronic lorelets in this thread
40k secondary loretubers and memes have been a disaster to the hobby. Thank frick that 1dGanker is dead.
We didn't gate-keep the hobby hard enough.
Because most people don't know how tank design is supposed to work, and even fewer really care. People are still in the fricking mindset that if Hitler built more Maus or managed to finish the Ratte tank he could have somehow won WWII.
sometimes i wonder how it would've gone if they used a lighter tone for their human designs
>a lighter tone for their human designs
/po/, pls
>a lighter tone for their human designs
60s retrofuture?
while we are on the subject of Tanks, does anyone have a cutaway illustration of the M3 Lee? Supposedly it had a crew of 7 but I cant figure out where the radio operator would have sat.
He is dude sitting behind driver.
You got 3 man in turret, driver, 2 dudes operating 75 and one dude behind driver.
Being crewman on M3 must have suck. Even soviets who designed their tanks with minimal care for crew comfort didn't like M3 Lee, calling it Coffin for Seven Brothers.
Thanks. I'd like to get in one of those one day to see what the interior conditions are like, but I'm probably too tall to ever comfortably get inside one.
did you ever see Sahara (1943)?
https://archive.org/details/sahara-colorized
I caught it on TV back when I was a young kid, yes. And then randomly again a few weeks back. Safe to say that movie gave me a deep appreciation for the vehicle.
I really enjoyed that! Thanks for posting it.
Well, I didn't have anything snarky to say or an angry rant about 40K tech esthetics - so thought I would post a good classic war movie instead.
I suppose I'm letting down the thread.
Fictional settings are trying to sell you a vibe, not actual realism. If you're autistic about tank realism stick to history and scale models.
ww1 tank with cartoon size turret is not a great vibe
it feels like this thread is asserting that a tank has to be realistic or historically accurate and then also assuming that GW cannot have based X tank on Y tank
I hate how someone made this as a meme and it unironically looks better than the original Leman Russ.
It does the job. Ask yourself if a "proper" tank with a low profile and covered tracks would survive against the sort of things that take out a Russ on the field any better, and you figure quickly that the differences are minuscule enough to be trivia.
The Russ rarely gets in the slugging matches with other tanks which would expose all of its faults. This is reflected in-game how it's typically a centerpiece of low-points matches where its biggest foe is infantry-manned AT weapons.
Diverting from tabletop, but You should see the shit the bimbo engineers working for the actual western militaries are designing lately, makes those designs look like the peak of practicality and efficiency.
And everyone is afraid of telling them No, so you’re actually going to see that shit produced and deployed. The nightmare scenario of the Bradley brought to life only worse. God bless Kek.
At least based Putin is developing based T-54 obr. 2024
Have you tried playing games, instead of being moronic?
because mechs > tanks
It’s a ww1 and ww2 design influenced sci for tank. What exactly is the issue?
Because nerds back then didn't actually know a god damn thing about how technology actually worked. Come to think of it, nothing has changed in that regard. They all just cream themselves over power armor and laser swords.
Some designs are better than others. Tanks with energy weapons, outside of volcano cannons and meltas, can fire any number of times. That alone makes them better than a lot of real world tanks. Volcanos and meltas being limited to a few hundred shots.
Energy weapons need energy stored or produced just like regular guns need ammo. They can't in fact fire "any number of times"
>That alone makes them better than a lot of real world tanks.
They're not better than real world tanks since they're, you know, not real.
>Volcanos and meltas being limited to a few hundred shots.
People just say this shit with a complete lack of awareness of the colossal energy storage this would require. Completely impossible things are just blurted out and accepted. Then they come after you with some shit like "the suspension is bad"
>They're not better than real world tanks since they're, you know, not real.
I was gonna actually go into the lore, but you're an absolute /r/atheist-tier dipshit. Go back to whatever shithole you crawled out of, thanks.
Yes, please go into the absolutely incoherent lore of 40k tanks. I can't wait to see the laughable nonsense you come up with.
Nah. I don't know what crawled up your ass, but you can it and yourself to go frick off. There's no reason why you should be tolerated on this board, you are neither interested in the subject matter or discussion. Go and take your salty ass back to /k/. You pretend to win victories here because your "team" can't win IRL. The absolute state of you. Cry forever.
I accept your concession.
That's what I thought. Mind-broken tool.
Energy weapons mean you're trading off dependence on ammo and fuel for twice the dependence on fuel.
This is where I inform you that energy weapons in WH40k can be charged almost anywhere. If you've got access to energy - and I mean that in the most general sense possible - you can recharge almost anything. This is of course under the assumption that you've got access to common Imperial Guard technology, which isn't something everyone has, but those armies and whatnot aren't going to have energy weapons anyway.
If truly desperate, you can throw laspacks into a fire to recharge them. This risks damaging them, but you can. You can even leave them out in the fricking sun to take in some rays.
Lasguns are the AK47's of the Imperium for very good reason. Dependable, hard to frick up, modular, easily packable, extremely low ammunition cost with low impact on logistics, incredibly robust, ammunition available almost anywhere as long as you haven't fricked up the laspacks/charge-packs; the list is long.
If you send a lasgun guardsman regiment on some kind of patrol duty or victory lap in the ass end of the galaxy, never firing a shot, they'll get something like a lasgun and two laspacks each. How much would each soldier need if deployed in the worst warzone? Still just a lasgun and two laspacks. Compare that to the millions upon millions of actual brass that would have to be expended with solid projectile weapons.
>comparing a lasgun to volcano cannons and meltaguns
Even the lore states that only lasguns can recharge ammo anywhere and have high ammo capacity, and even then, the high power of such weapons means that their energy expenditure must be so high so as to limit the amount of shots.
But 40k operates on bullshit scifi space magic anyway, so meh, sure, whatever, I'm NTA you were originally arguing with. WW2 historicals like Chain of Command and O Group mog 40k anyway.
>comparing a lasgun to volcano cannons and meltaguns
Nobody was doing that. Volcano cannons and meltaguns aren't energy weapons, anon. Those explicitly require fuel in the form of promethium. The comparison that was made was explicitly between energy weapons and solid-projectile weapons, and I encourage you to embrace the ancient art of basic literacy.
>If truly desperate, you can throw laspacks into a fire to recharge them.
>You can even leave them out in the fricking sun to take in some rays.
morons have no fricking idea how ridiculous all of this is but will still twist themselves in knots trying to convince you it somehow makes sense.
Circular logic, friend.
>akshully the lasguns can recharge from solar power (despite having no solar panel surfaces in artwork), you can even just...throw them in a fricking fire and they'll recharge
>"cool, that makes no fricking sense but whatever it's ridiculous space fantasy right?"
>NOOOOO IT MAKES SENSE IT'S NOT RIDICULOUS!
>"why does it make sense?"
>BECAUSE THE LORE SAYS IT WORKS!!!!
Yes anon, this contradict physics, but entire 40k is written by guys who never saw gun in their life and all they know about physics is that gravity pull stuff down.
It's not first and not last case of GW writters not knowing shit.
If you want something funny, C'tan can summo antimatter meteorite on battlefield, it have simlar force to artillery round, despite 1kg of antimatter having simlar power to biggest nuke ever detonated. Physics work in way plot need it to work.
This is why 300mm worth of steel armour is enough to stop futuristic space weapons and railguns while modern ATGM and AT weapons penetrate 700mm no problem.
You just listed good reasons why 40k shouldn't exist and needs to be killed off. The 40k fan genocide needs to happen soon in order to save wargaming.
This is only logistically true for Lasguns because they require so 'little' energy but the moment you scale up to Lascannons you're talking literally hundreds of times the required energy per shot and thousands per full charge cell. The Volcano Cannon is even more extreme than that. These also require more expensive and sophisticated capacitors the higher up the scale they go.
That being said, they do have the extreme advantage of being able to just be hooked up to a large generator or something, somewhat simplifying the process over liquid fuel and ammunition, but it is still 'refuelling,' of a sort.
I don't see what's bad about this.
40k unironically makes a ton of real-world sense. The only reason people say it doesn't is because they are brainwashed by the pentagon and their moneymaking schemes.
>space marine armor proportions would never work!
Nope, the astartes animation film disproved this
>you can't make real life space marines!
Literally just splice silverback gorilla DNA with human DNA and give the result 40mm grenade launchers and 40k power armor
>the tanks are dumb!
They're unironically more practical than real world tank designs
>they don't have jets with beyond visual range capability! Dogfighting is dead!
Dogfighting is not dead, and a simple jet with a couple of autocannons on it and zero electronics would be better than the F35. Missiles, radar, stealth, lock-ons etc are a fad and are useless. 40k designs mog real world aircraft designs
In conclusion, anyone who says 40k isn't realistic is lying
>they don't have jets with beyond visual range capability
Anyone that actually says this is moronic. The Imperium can pin-point cannonballs from across a solar system, they sure as hell can use heat-seekers and various forms of radar.
According to aeronautica imperialis, imperial fighters just dogfight with other fighters and their main weapons consist of lascannons, autocannons and heavy bolters. No BVR fighting present
Yes, and?
But it's true, anon. 40k operates on the star wars logic of spaceships having age of sail naval battles with broadsides and literally firing harpoons to board enemy vessels and all fighters engaging in WW2 dogfighting actions. Trying to insert real world logic into 40k is pointless since the setting is basically self-admitted bullshit anyway because none of this shit is believable in the slightest. Just enjoy it for the silliness, anon
>setting where the lore states that great crusade world eaters literally world war Z their way up a wall through a massive pile of their own corpses
>most of the primaris units have fricking GI Joe toy tier naming
>desolator missile launchers
>shitty cartoon tank designs
>space elves and robot zombies and orks and literal demons running around doing the most bananas shit
>humanoid aliens existing at all, let alone being the dominant body plan because of old one bullshit
>the warp, period
>"yes this is the setting I shall choose to take seriously"
>"yes this is the setting I shall choose to take seriously"
Sadly, this applies to most scifi fans, not just 40k fans. Ever met a trekkie, star wars fan, battletech fan, etc? They all have brainworms
The real chads prefer darwin IV and xeelee sequence
The Imperium literally has completely different and arbitrary technological basis for different institutions based off politics and tradition - to a point where the Mechanicus and Astartes are known to have better weapons because they commonly employ autoloaders instead of slave-labour and only the Mechanicus is allowed to have something resembling the internet. That's literally the whole point of Imperial tech being fricked and every other faction in the setting ignores this - it's not 'a major part of the setting,' it's a unique part of the Imperium's problems.
Isn't there lore that Imperial Guard tankers fricking hate Imperial Guard tanks because they're cheap pieces of shit? Like I swear I remember a line about a tank commander saying "the leman russ is so big that it can only take cover behind another leman russ" and complaining about its armor being paper thin if it gets hit anywhere outside of the front arc
All tankers will always come to hate parts of their vehicle as they become familiar with its drawbacks so I don't think that's entirely unique, but the issues with the Russ are known in-setting and Guardsmen grumble about them when they're not around someone that will flog, execute or lobotomize them for questioning their superiors yeah.
"Leman Russ was a rolling deathtrap. Its tall profile was so notoriously awful that no commander ever wanted to be squadron leader - the only thing big enough to shield a Leman Russ during operations was another Leman Russ, so better to keep the command unit ahead of you for as long as you could. Its fragile tracks were exposed and its armour was a mess of easy-to-hit vertical planes. The standard pattern sponson-bulges just presented another flat edge to destroy, another reason to be glad not to have them. The interior was noisy and prone to bursting into flames whenever a loader coughed too loudly. And, if you were truly unlucky enough to have those sponsons, there was only one escape hatch, right at the top of the main turret, and so the chances of getting out alive in case of all-too-likely disaster were practically zero. No, whoever had designed the Leman Russ - Kaska had always assumed it wasn't actually the primarch of the VI - was a moron. Or a sadist. Or both. The only things it had going for it were cheapness, mechanical reliability and a certain rugged survivability in numbers. The design was so brutally simple that the Imperium was able to churn them out by the million. It mattered less that each individual unit was a study in self-harm when you could overwhelm a battlefield with hundreds of them. Still, all in all, the crews had few illusions about the tanks they rode into war. Deathboxes, they were called, and homewreckers, and other, earthier, names too."
Yeah. basically. Although I just copied this from 2dGanker rip in piss 1dGanker. and I don't actually know what book its from.
There is nothing wrong with it though?
>nogames /k/gays malding over the ultimate clap-your-hands fairydust makes it real setting
How embarrassing!
I actually think it’s cool that the guard is running around with these glorified shell catchers and using the triumph of functional logistics to take on overpriced, underavailable wunderwaffen like eldar and tau hover tanks. I just don’t like the cope that the leman Russ (and basically every old lore vehicle with certain notable exceptions) is actually super advanced, because it clearly isn’t and isn’t intended to be.
>overpriced, underavailable wunderwaffen like eldar and tau hover tanks
Compared to the baneblade?
Anything that can run on corpses and firewood while mounting DEW weapons is absolutely super advanced. It’s just that it’s has a few advanced features that are surrounded and dragged down by the other 80% of the tank which consists of backwards designs and outdated features. Just like just about everything the Imperium uses
It's a fricking tank it's going to look ugly no matter what.
No one is into 40k for the realism.
The Imperium’s design themes revolve around using high-tech stupidly. It’s how they can put plasma canons and laser guns on a tank with a design not that far from WW1.
These basically hit the nail on the head. The Leman Russ' design is deliberately anachronistic because the Imperium is supposed to be incredibly technologically advanced compared to today but also incredibly backwards by the standards of the setting, and what better way to illustrate that than with a tank that on the inside is so advanced it's basically magic but on the outside it's a giant boxy monstrosity that looks like it rolled straight out of WWI?
>take design that won ww1
>give it another gun
>"the design is le bad because... it just is!"
Be sure to pray in the direction of whichever military history e-celeb you get your "tank knowledge" from once before you have a nice day, you dirty turd tickler
Artillery shell production won WW1.
The current STC’s are what humanity in the Dark Age of Technology would have used as farming and construction vehicles, repurposed for war. That’s why they’re so dumpy-looking. It’s part of the regression of humanity in 40k. Our military tech has become so lost to us that we have to coax on repurposed civilian STC’s.
I think I’ve seen quotes that the Baneblade was basically the light tank of DaoT humanity, but that’s fricking ridiculous so that’s probably something made up. But we see from factions like the Van Saar and the Leagues of Votaan just a fraction of humanity’s past capabilities. They have weapons that make the lasgun look like tasers and the methods to mass produce them.
I’m reminded of the fate of most WW2 milsup. Turns out when you build it on the cheap like the M3 half-track or the M113 it converts to civilian tech really easily.
Frankly I wouldn’t be surprised if the rhino was just a mountain rescue vehicle.
My favourite piece of post-WWII repurposing is the one where they cut away 80% of a Sherman and called it a tractor.
there's also this beast, T-34 grafted with a pair of MiG-21 engines
The best part of this post is that they made this monstrosity to deal with a literal portal to hell that opened in Siberia, a daily occurrence in 40k.
They also used to it to put out the oil wells that the Iraqi army set on fire during the Gulf War
>factions like the Van Saar and the Leagues of Votaan...have weapons that make the lasgun look like tasers and the methods to mass produce them.
Only if you take NuLore at face value. Otherwise yes, you're dead on.
>Baneblade was basically the light tank of DaoT humanity, but that’s fricking ridiculous so that’s probably something made up.
Baneblade might have been used as a scouting vehicle for DOAT human titan legions,
I remember something really similar, that the Baneblade used to be a main battle tank and the leman Russ was considered a "light" tank by comparison. Hell if I know where I read it though. I think that was mostly to demonstrate how much the imperium has regressed since the heresy days.
the "farming vehicle russ" and "light tank baneblade" things are both BS.
no idea where the latter came from, but the former is probably from someone misinterpreting a lore thing about the Land Crawler agricultural vehicle that's at times been refitted into a (shitty) tank thing.
Picrel.
I'm pretty sure what he wrote is accurate. The land raider is basically somekind of agricultural workhorse.
Firstly; I was talking about the russ and the baneblade, now you're bringing up the LR, stop moving goalposts.
Secondly; no?
the LR was cobbled together from a bunch of different STC design fragments by Arkhan Land before the Heresy happened and the admech went down the "designing new shit is bad" rabbithole.
>Arkhan Land
not canon.
Its not canon, but in my imagination the Leman-Russ, and most smaller imperial tanks, are just larger variations of cold-war british tanks, with added hull sponsons.
That's a really, really cool looking tank, idiot.
I'll be honest, my only major grip with the russ is the lack of suspension.
fix that and I'd be happy as a pig in shit.
I'd like a larger turret myself instead of suspension if the scenario is one fix only.
They're just WW1 tanks with turrets stuck on top of them. Le gritty trench warfare muh Imperium of Ham.
I don't know how anyone looks at 40k with a straight face.
Tank are so cool. But yeah warhammer's tanks are basically repurposed construction equipment.
Have been watching a lot of Monty Python films this weekend. Someone suggested a Python comedy version of 40K. Will probably say that all Imperium armored vehicles sound like clapping coconuts. Someone wants to encounter the Space Kiniggits who say "Ni". Should be funny.