People are not playing the game anymore, they're literally on autopilot trying to get the biggest numbers possible because apparently all the magic of MMO is gone
>People are not playing the game anymore, they're literally on autopilot trying to get the biggest numbers possible because apparently all the magic of MMO is gone
always been the case. MMOs are just treadmill MUDs.
Man I miss being content with MUDs. They also theoretically solve data mining by not requiring clients to download all assets. Give me an MMO that looks and plays like Dwarf Fortress adventure mode.
People were always trying to get the biggest numbers possible, it's just that even the best players were so giga-awful at it that from the contemporary perspective it's difficult to see they were even trying (they were). And what exactly does that have to do with datamining?
The loss of "sense of adventure" is just bad, linear, content, and lack of atmosphere. I've probably leveled 30+ vanilla 1x equivalents of characters (say, Wrath in 2x rate private server would be ⅓ characters) and legacy-WoW still feels adventurous to me. It's because it takes you on globetrotting adventures that feel organic, not a rollercoaster ride through the zones, and because the areas are incredibly atmospheric so running around them is a joyous experience for that reason alone.
it’s only revered due to general chat. no one actually enjoys questing in the barrens besides autists
8 months ago
Anonymous
Bro most people who played MMO's are to any degree are fricking autists. Even back in the day the normal teens and college students were out getting their dicks sucked and socializing IRL not spending their fridays cooped up in their rooms with only their own farts and teamspeak to keep them company.
8 months ago
Anonymous
>getting their dicks sucked
That's disgusting. Why would I be doing that when I can farm epic loot
>Man I wish we could go back to those good old days of being a nameless foot soldier like in vanilla >Yeah we were just a rag-tag group of mercs who killed an elemental lord, the leaders of the black dragonflight, an old god, and the lich king's right hand man >Good times, being a no-name schlub was so fun
8 months ago
Anonymous
It was a journey
8 months ago
Anonymous
A journey with the dumbest of endings, how exactly did punching wolves in the mouth and picking up their teeth for an elf prepare you to fight dragons?
8 months ago
Anonymous
>All those things die to footsoldiers in the RTS. >people get mad that players arent chozen wons! in the mmo
Never understood that
8 months ago
Anonymous
>>Yeah we were just a rag-tag group of mercs who killed an elemental lord, the leaders of the black dragonflight, an old god, and the lich king's right hand man
1. Ragnaros hadn't manifested fully and was weakened.
2. You kill a couple of Deathwing's children.
3. Old gods weren't shit back then
4. A lvl 10 Lich.
All of these bosses were just Warcraft 3 units. You are indeed a no-name adventurer in Vanilla.
8 months ago
Anonymous
>blizzard retconned their power level later so it doesn't count
ok buddy
8 months ago
Anonymous
They didn't. In WoW the bosses you fought were the equivalent of lvl 10 heroes in WC3.
8 months ago
Anonymous
Should just have sent in Thrall considering he's like level 63 or something after the RTS games. He'd shit on everything
8 months ago
Anonymous
wait until you find out that Arthas, Anub'Arak and a few crypt fiends killed a pseudo old god by themselves.
8 months ago
Anonymous
was that in w3 or vanilla? mind you wow lore was shit before vanilla released
8 months ago
Anonymous
Frozen Throne.
8 months ago
Anonymous
you mean after
8 months ago
Anonymous
since they announced forsaken being part of the horde for wow , the lore was going to be shit from that point onwards
In vanilla WoW you are just some guy, in modern WoW you are THE Guy. So Vanilla questing is just walking around doing shit all over the whole world, odd jobs, killing bandits and local pests, you might have to travel far to do a quest instead of it just being a train full of stops. Even during end content raiding you are just one guy of up to 40 guys. So there is a good sense of adventure.
>In vanilla WoW you are just some guy >defeat elemental lord, black dragonflight, blood god, old god and arthas's right hand
even in lower level locations you're usually wreck some big guy's shit
Yeah WoW was way better when the player character was AT BEST the equivalent of a 3-4 food unit in War3. Like your level 60 night elf druid with maxed out gear? you're just a Druid of the Claw that an Ancient of Lore shit out for 300 gold in 30 seconds.
8 months ago
Anonymous
Eh, they could've spun it out as some metaphysical backing that pushes foot soldiers to legendary heights, or make all players into those weird planeswalker in training analogues from all over the universe that went into Azeroth once Legion broke some reality barriers.
>left >have to put in effort and time to explore an environment >right >get shoved down a hallway to get your dose of dopamine in perfectly spaced doses after hours of playtesting
On the right side, you're pretty much forced to do the quests in a specific order. You're led from one micro quest hub to the next, and if you try to go to one out of order, there won't be anything for you there. There's usually like 10+ of these little hubs and they all have 3-5 quests each, and you'll never need to return to any of these hubs after you finish their quests. It's extremely linear and hand holding, you really don't need to think at all.
On the left side, you go into a main town and there are immediately a bunch of quests you can pick up. Some are for your level, and some you won't be able to complete until you're higher level, but for the most part you can accept almost all of them. It's up to the player to choose which quests to do and in which order. You'll return to these towns often, so you'll often see lots of players running around. You can go into any of these towns and as long as you're high enough level, you can pick up quests there, no need to follow a linear, per-determined path.
Pretty much every single Cata zone is like the right side, it's awful.
as a microcosm, it presented an MMO 'done right', where many players of varying progression and skill were roughly lumped into the same world space and interacting with eachother.
But WoW simply wasn't the game for it. Progression continued 'forever' eventually straining the audience so thin not even so many stacked layers in one zone could support a healthy population in the single zone
You see backtracking, which is for sure bad for a themepark MMO - but the point is, it was good because it presented itself as if WoW was NOT a themepark MMO.
It is all gone. The only people playing MMOs are 22 year olds who have to minmax everything because they don't have any time spare in the wagie life to just enjoy the experience.
People were always trying to get the biggest numbers possible, it's just that even the best players were so giga-awful at it that from the contemporary perspective it's difficult to see they were even trying (they were). And what exactly does that have to do with datamining?
The loss of "sense of adventure" is just bad, linear, content, and lack of atmosphere. I've probably leveled 30+ vanilla 1x equivalents of characters (say, Wrath in 2x rate private server would be ⅓ characters) and legacy-WoW still feels adventurous to me. It's because it takes you on globetrotting adventures that feel organic, not a rollercoaster ride through the zones, and because the areas are incredibly atmospheric so running around them is a joyous experience for that reason alone.
It is all gone. The only people playing MMOs are 22 year olds who have to minmax everything because they don't have any time spare in the wagie life to just enjoy the experience.
>REEEEEEE STOP PLAYING STRENGTH WARRIOR WHY DONT YOU PLAY STRENGTH WIZARD LIKE ME YOU FRICKING TRYHARDS
kys
genuine moron
it more like >oh you want to play warrior? Sorry bud but according to this internet chart wizard outclasses warrior by 3.8% so you need to reroll or you dont get to play
yes every single guild in every single mmo runs a hyper optimized setup, you're not being disingenuous at all and im sure you can name which mmo you're referring to with this moronic analogy
A huge draw of video games is not knowing what's around the corner.
The magic of Warcraft was completely ruined by Thottbot, Allakhazam and Wowhead.
Datamining allows people to know 100% of a game's content, piecing all assets together and cataloguing everything.
So, instead of raiding destroyed ruins to defeat an adversary and being rewarded with new quests, items and socializing, you just silently queue up your random dungeon finder to farm one dungeon 20 consecutive times to get one slightly rare item from a specific boss.
Pretty much only brand new games will have this element. Anything else will have a meta that is solved. Would be awesome if one day we could somehow have it different though, the videogames program themselves as they go.
A huge draw of video games is not knowing what's around the corner.
The magic of Warcraft was completely ruined by Thottbot, Allakhazam and Wowhead.
Datamining allows people to know 100% of a game's content, piecing all assets together and cataloguing everything.
So, instead of raiding destroyed ruins to defeat an adversary and being rewarded with new quests, items and socializing, you just silently queue up your random dungeon finder to farm one dungeon 20 consecutive times to get one slightly rare item from a specific boss.
Nothing is surprising anymore. The moment the patch drops everything has already been seen. The only exception I can think of are boss transition cutscenes in FF14, but even then the animations are fully datamined, the only thing that gets seen first on a world progression stream is the camera work used in the transitions.
Everything is already solved before it even comes out. Unless you bury your head in the sand and exclusively play with friends that agree to do the same, it's generally expected that you'll look up some guy on YouTube telling you how to play optimally, or else you'll be a liability.
I think a key problem here is respeccing being too easy: if you can conveniently swap out specializations (is it really a specialization anyway if you can just swap it on demand?) every time you do a different activity, or even a different boss, then it is easy to theorycraft an optimized build for that exact circumstance. In contrast, if you can't swap specs on demand, then the circumstances you are optimizing the build for are somewhat unique for each player and while there in principle exists a solution for any given weighing of activities, there doesn't exist an universal solution.
It’s the opposite. Being unable to respec means you have to look up exactly what to spec in so you don’t destroy your character
There's a difference between not being able to respec at all and not being able to respec at will. Many Diablo2likes for instance require you to relevel skills a bit after changing them around, or a complete talent revamp is fairly expensive. But way way below the effort that goes into making an entirely new character (let's say 30 minutes of earning back shit, say, which is prohibitive for respeccing for each individual boss, but entirely reasonable if you feel your build is bricked). Hell, vanilla/TBC respec costs are pretty reasonable too on that count: the problem is there being so few situational talents that there isn't many even potentially contextual decisions to begin with: a balance issue, not fundamental design issue.
So let me restate what I'm imagining: it's easy for theorycrafters to find global optimum for damage when you have so-and-so much movement, so-and-so encounter duration, so-and-so available buffs, so-and-so gear level, etc. Given that you are using the build in those exact circumstances, it's simply correct, and there isn't a reason to use anything but. But if you can't change talents at will and the build has to be more well-rounded, there isn't any specific amount of movement, prevalence of AoE vs single target, available buffs, gear, and other factors that you can throw into simulation, and what kind of content a given player does and in what company, isn't something they CAN know. In other words, while good builds are informed by theorycrafting considerations, there's some potential even for novices to pick what works for them in their own circumstance, and those decisions potentially being better than some online guide that doesn't know what those circumstances ARE.
Those circumstances go into build and comp choices, also most of the time you just minmax towards x thing and cover the gap with a different class more minmaxed towards y
8 months ago
Anonymous
>also most of the time you just minmax towards x thing and cover the gap with a different class more minmaxed towards y
That's very much true especially in raiding context (the whole holy trinity thing, which is basically inevitable because it's better for one guy to focus entirely on defense and one on damage, than two guys to do a mix of both and then be one-shot by the boss), but I can imagine there being more nuance than that. Say, in Wrath of the Lich King it's strictly speaking optimal for disc priests not to even have their capstone talent penance (for some fights), precisely because holy paladin is so overwhelmingly better in single target healing that even trivial bonuses to shielding are better than an ability you wouldn't use because someone else will cover that base for you. As it is now a tryhard could even dualspec a build with penance and build without penance, supposing they'll always be healing.
But suppose it wasn't all about 25-man raiding. If instead other game modes were also "relevant", and the performance in 5-mans where you're the sole healer was also a consideration. Or you actually had to farm, too, and not so that you could make an alt for it. Perhaps PvP was a concrete risk and not giving it any credence would be self-handicapping. Perhaps some bosses demanded really different kinds of builds (for example, even builds like dual-earthliving enhancement healing build, or healing ret build, could work for General Vezax, if it wasn't for the fact that Blizzard specifically added a debuff that gives 90% healing debuff if you had specced deep into enha/ret). Or whatever.
Perhaps you'd respec for a specialized 25-man raiding build (with or without penance) during progression. But if there were pulls for all kinds of directions for general gameplay and you couldn't respec daily, who's to say you should give 100% priority to raiding and 0% to everything else? And the degree in which each player value these other aspects differs!
8 months ago
Anonymous
>give one free respec a month/3 months/whatever period >charge a one off fee for an additional skill tree
that's more or less what pso2 did, and it worked pretty well back before they simplified the skill trees to be so linear that you could literally everything of note in a single tree.
>dude just brick your character and piss 20-60 hours down the drain
Vs >let buildsperg with a calculator and set square figure it out in a 10th of the time and do what hes done
8 months ago
Anonymous
>20-60 hours down the drain
How can those hours go down the drain just because your character is shit? If playing those hours wasn't fun, why were you doing it in the first place?
Also, god forbid you play a game more than once, as people used to do in the before-times.
8 months ago
Anonymous
Yes, there are shitloads of other games competing for my time and wasted effort is a massive buzzkill regardless of how fun.
8 months ago
Anonymous
>I had 60 hours of fun >oh wait I've just decided that wasn't fun at all, making the fact that I chose to keep playing nonsensical
You have a mental illness
8 months ago
Anonymous
These people, even if they’re having fun, don’t notice that they are because they’re distracting themselves by hinging their satisfaction on the endgame, on some future moment they’re not even in. They all hate their favorite games and think Elden Ring and such are trash because they felt diminishing returns at hour 120
8 months ago
Anonymous
MMOs begin at max level.
8 months ago
Anonymous
Vanilla wow was the only decent MMO and the only decent part of it was the levelling.
8 months ago
Anonymous
Vanilla wow was shit compared to Guildwars.
8 months ago
Anonymous
mogged by gw1 and ffxi, WoW was always pissbaby crap for normalgays with prebuilt budget shitrigs
>and exclusively play with friends that agree to do the same
also good fricking luck finding 9-24 other people who are willing to actually do that. at most you'll find some people who pretend to do it, but are remarkably prepared for everything that shows up.
People are not playing the game anymore, they're literally on autopilot trying to get the biggest numbers possible because apparently all the magic of MMO is gone
Simply make those numbers magical, duh!
But if your game lacks any proper means to tackle that math depth truly while lacking in actual game parts as opposed to some fps or rts, until your game isn't really a game but a mere math framework around a glorified spell click simulator, well, you won't fix that easily.
And games like PoE and MU online likely have you bet on that math front, too.
I'd say it completely killed the.magic of a game since it removes any modicum of ambiguity.
Guild Wars had a lot of myths surrounding it that were really hard to disprove (like that claim that you would be able to fight Grenth if you did all the quests and cleared all mobs in the Underworld). In the age of datamining such endevours get snuffed out straight away, back then you'd have occasional people actually try to do all that (hardest part were the timed quests).
Imagine if someone saw you looking at patch notes for a game you like and called you a dirty cheater with no sense of wonder because you didn't wait to experience all of the listed new features organically without even knowing they exist. Now, imagine how angry that person gets when a studio decides to put the next patch up on a separate server for months in advance so people can test all of that new content ahead of time and give feedback.
New MMOs and new games in general are usually a blast to play because nobody knows anything, most people want to explore the game themselves instead of spoiling it by looking at others. There's also a limit to how much information a player can absorb in a single day, Of course you're free to wait a week or two after launch and read everything about it before playing and ruin it for yourself, nothing can be done about you being an idiot.
If the game has an element of skill involved instead of relying purely on numbers and stats then people will actually have to play the game and learn it. Skillbased gameplay is something you can't learn by reading wikis so MMOs should definitely have more of that.
>nobody cares about lore, world
Suppose that's because the fluff is boring and sucks and isn't worth getting invested in >socializing
Now, as a matter of fact neo-MMOs do differ from older games in various ways, such as being designed to be soloable. That being said, many older games like WoW 1.x in OPs pic related actually were designed like that from the starts, people were simply playing them "wrong" (contrary to mechanical incentives). What you want is to make the most fun playstyles also the mechanically preferred ones (there's a nice Sid Meier quote to that effect: basically people are going to do what they're going to do, and your task as a designer is to make sure what they're doing is the fun approach). For example, even a small change like enabling quest loot in party, a change implemented by various WoW private servers, suddenly makes it worth it to level in a party and who would have thought, people do.
>all that backtracking
enlighten someone whose never played wow before and tell me what made left so great?
Because "real world" (or any fictional world) doesn't actually function so conveniently as rare herbs required for a cure to a poison just happening to grow next to the house of a poisoner you're told to bring to justice. The OG questing structure makes the game world feel like an actual world, and additionally allows players to be efficient about their routing (being efficient feels innately good), whereas a fully linear structure doesn't even allow failure, and as such cannot provide this satisfaction.
>Because "real world" (or any fictional world) doesn't actually function so conveniently as rare herbs required for a cure to a poison just happening to grow next to the house of a poisoner you're told to bring to justice. The OG questing structure makes the game world feel like an actual world, and additionally allows players to be efficient about their routing (being efficient feels innately good), whereas a fully linear structure doesn't even allow failure, and as such cannot provide this satisfaction.
This. Overdesign leads to non-organic gameplay
They're just going to experiment and get the numbers manually like many other games, and because 10000 of them are doing this and have experience doing it again and again it will be as quick. Not to mention unless you have new gameplay most formulas will be similar to other games to start with.
I like half pf them are clearly upset they lost the race but can’t outright say that so need to come up with nonsense to cope like “haha you didn’t farm gold” well unless you bought gold your not affording 1k mount as a fresh 60 regardless
I hate how I used to avoid sites like wowhead to not get spoiled but everyone in the guild obviously did it and then just tried to rush trough new dungeons and raids. I honestly wondered why they even play the game at that point.
there's nothing to solve, shit gets datamined because the developers want it to be. If you hide it decently enough, even if there are giga autists working full time to decrypt and leak your stuff, the general public won't even care about it generally.
Unmarked quests and triggers. In Legion, WoW started “secrets” which are basically big, hidden questchains with every task of it hidden. Almost impossible to datamine since nothing is listed or labelled like regular quests, you’d have to manually analyse every line of code which isn’t what dataminers do.
Here’s an example:
warcraft-secrets.com/guides/the-hivemind
Every step you see described here had to be figured out by the players, nothing ever showed up in any quest log or as a map marker.
>Every step you see described here had to be figured out by the players, nothing ever showed up in any quest log or as a map marker.
Then how do you actually get any info? Do npcs even say something or what?
The initial “discovery” is usually accidental. >hey this shit wasn’t here before
Once people realise that there might be something, they start investigating. some of it is trial and every (“lets equip this talisman and see if anything in the entire world is different now”), some of it is previous discoveries (“there’s this named npc in the middle of nowhere with no quests connected to it, maybe he’s related to this new stuff?”) and some stuff is straight up puzzles, like the letters in the hivemind: >Each clue is a nonsense phrase, with some of the words being capitalized. The capitalized words make up an anagram that provides a hint on where to find the next clue. You must reach each letter in order. >First Letter: The key Factor in successful Wasp Ignition is a solid Ad campaign.
Solution: The Wasp Ad Ignition Factor --> ANTICIPATORS OF DEATHWING
In northeastern Highmountain is a tribe of tauren known as the Prepfoots. They are preparing for Deathwing's return (apparently unaware that the Cataclysm already occurred). On a table in one of their huts, you'll find the next clue.
Interesting, but how do you hide data about more normal stuff like new mobs? Is there a way?
btw. >They are preparing for Deathwing's return (apparently unaware that the Cataclysm already occurred).
lel
just don't put stuff on the PTR that you don't want to be seen.
I mean, we're at a point where if you log into the PTR you can just open the dungeon journal and see the entire raid's bosses, with every detail about every phase, every item they drop, flavour text, models and so on
I'd say at this point anything that's not shoving it in people's face would be good enough
>PTR >Public Test Realm
Well, with stuff like that it's hard to hide anything.
8 months ago
Anonymous
>Well, with stuff like that it's hard to hide anything.
Including Blizzard's own incompetence when it comes to fixing shit. People report a bug day 1 of PTR and it's not fixed on release several months later
8 months ago
Anonymous
I was kinda wondering how bugs are even a thing if there are players autistic enough to check every piece of new content.
Damn, Blizzard has gone to shit.
Assets are virtually impossible to hide lest you want them not on the PTR in the first place (which is possible, using placeholder names and models).
I see.
But if the game didn't have PTR, it would stay a mystery for longer, right?
8 months ago
Anonymous
Yea, but not testing something like a new raid or dungeon would be a disaster. Though I think blizz at least always kept the final boss of mythic raids off the PTR (for better and for worse).
8 months ago
Anonymous
>Yea, but not testing something like a new raid or dungeon would be a disaster.
Even moreso than they already are on release? I remember playing the megadungeon from last expansion and one boss would give you an unsolvable pattern and just murder you sometimes. Got fixed later supposedly but I didn't stick around long enough to find out.
8 months ago
Anonymous
Yes, it would be much worse. Cue comment about blizzard competence here.
Tbh I was never too annoyed by data mining, I just didn’t pay attention if I didn’t want to get spoiled
8 months ago
Anonymous
Assets are virtually impossible to hide lest you want them not on the PTR in the first place (which is possible, using placeholder names and models).
just don't put stuff on the PTR that you don't want to be seen.
I mean, we're at a point where if you log into the PTR you can just open the dungeon journal and see the entire raid's bosses, with every detail about every phase, every item they drop, flavour text, models and so on
I'd say at this point anything that's not shoving it in people's face would be good enough
Frick MMOs, how about gams in general. >all those 'mysteries' in pokemon, GTASA, etc, that single-handedly kept people entertained for years
Now the only "mystery" that is found is cut content and future DLC shit.
Encrypting game files never works because the game itself has to be able to decrypt them at some point, so all you have to do is watch what it does and then you can reverse engineer it.
So I'm a gamedev and I know how to solve it, hear me out
>make mmo as usual, but make the type of content it has dynamic. i'm talking everything from zones all the way down to individual class skills, make everything easily malleable and subject to change on whim >employ several "game masters". one per zone is ideal but fewer would work too. make sure they work together and know about each other's actions >every few days, game masters radically change something. maybe a zone gets totally demolished, maybe a certain spell gets weaker due to magical forces, make whatever up >the world continually changes and shifts >nobody can datamine shit >even your hometown is subject to explode randomly one day and you'll have to adjust >your skills get shifted around and change randomly to the point where you have to relearn how to use them nearly every time
Frick your build, the age of darkness arrived and now all your shadow spells deal 60% more damage but all your holy spells are useless, adapt or quit, b***h
funny enough this is how the crypto ETH started. Blizz nerfed the ETH founders WoW class and he decided to quit and channel his energy elsewhere which was crypto.
mmos definitely need shit similar to this, basically events that aren't on any schedule, just controlled by a GM or something, imagine logging in and the sky goes red and a bunch of dragons descend on the city or something, nothing in the game ever hints at this it just happens and nobody knows whats happening, oh and it never happens again so you just had to be there
>So I'm a gamedev >make mmo as usual >the world continually changes and shifts >your skills get shifted around and change randomly to the point where you have to relearn how to use them nearly every time >Thoughts?
This is not a realistic concept, as a game dev how much resources would be required to implement something like this let alone maintain the unpredictability of such a system? I'm not a game dev but if completely dynamic worlds were easy to create/implement, surely someone would have done it by now. Also imagine the frustration of doing content like a dungeon and doing it a second time and everything changed. Where the frick is this quest mob, where is the boss? Then the next day the dungeon is gone completely, how do you handle loot anx quests? IDK it sounds less appealing the more I consider it.
you're not a fricking gamedev, you've never programmed everything in your miserable life, and you fricking certainly have never played classic WoW >haha what if one day we randomly decided to blow up stranglethorn vale and both factions were just stuck in their 30s without any decent places to level wouldn't that be fun and hilarious :*~~
1. Matrix online did it so you're clearly wrong on the feasibility aspect
2. I wrote several game engines in C++ and am working on my first full-featured indie title
3. I have 10k+ hours in classic WoW
the type of player to instantly discard ideas like this thinks fixing the game is >more shit to collect and more milestone achievements >less shop more grind >do it like x years ago and never evolve
fact #1: if the game could've died, it would've between BFA/SL
fact #2: the game cannot improve so long as it's publicly traded and located in LA
fact #3: to SUCCEED, a man embodying the divine potential of the western tradition must be given a blank check to have the final say on everything
fact #4: #3 will never happen because #2 has no reason to change because of #1
Leveling is pointless and I have no idea why its even a thing when everything during it is irrelevant. Felt like a speedbump more than anything, especially during Wrath.
>enjoy the shit an mmo is worth playing over a single player game for >dont enjoy grinding bear asses and zebra hooves to get to it
Why do people get shitter shattered at this. Filling the xp bar is the shittiest part of any mmo.
8 months ago
Anonymous
>Filling the xp bar is the shittiest part of any mmo.
But that's exactly what ilvl and artifact power etc. are, except you do it by repeating the same mundane minigame over and over. If you disagree, explain why WoW is dead.
8 months ago
Anonymous
Ill do you one better, item shit as a reward for co-ordinated fights is why monster hunter is so massive and why wow even has players at all still.
8 months ago
Anonymous
MonHun has an end point. The AP grind introduced in Legion and reintroduced every expansion thereafter is a treadmill designed to force the player to log in repeatedly or risk falling behind their peers, and then later 'fixed' at the end of the expansion to make keeping concurrent worthless and have the playerbase cheer them on for 'listening to feedback'. I make Flammenzahn and upgrade a few times and it's fricking done, I have my fire greatsword.
8 months ago
Anonymous
Frontier is a live service one. Also Artifact power was one of the worst things they ever did and existed to try slow down shitsockers and thats it.
This mindset is exactly what killed MMOs by turning them into glorified lobby-based games. Go play your Tanks/Dota/Valorant/Destiny but only after you have a nice day.
8 months ago
Anonymous
None of those have 25man raids or battlegrounds.
8 months ago
Anonymous
lolwut? literally all those games are is battlegrounds.
and they don't have raids because, surprise surprise grouping up with 25 people to beat a boss isn't particularly fun with no persistent reward attached to it, almost like the act of character building actually does have a point.
8 months ago
Anonymous
Battlegrounds is 20v20 or above. Destiny and other games are 5v5s and were more or less halo multiplayer. World of difference. Also destiny had 6 man raids, but they were drastically different to a 25 man.
8 months ago
Anonymous
>Battlegrounds is 20v20 or above
Warsong Gulch? Arathi Basin? Eye of the Storm? Twin Peaks?
Most battlegrounds are 10v10.
>employ several "game masters". one per zone is ideal but fewer would work too. make sure they work together and know about each other's actions >Eventually makes the mistake of hiring a representative of the community like a moderator/superstar poster from somethingawful, resetera, or another cancerous forum when the original GMs leave for better gigs and eventually starts dictating the game in ways that makes it unfun for everyone including nepotism, GMs shitting up the game with personal politics on how the game should be ran, etc. and then removed after a major controversial event.
Speedrun randomizers? It's just a speedrun of a game where someone made a mod of the game that shuffles the contents of every treasure pickup so you can get a plot important item from what was supposed to be an ammo pickup and vice versa.
Basically it's a test of a person's knowledge in where to find every single treasure in a game as fast as possible and knowing when they can stop looking and just head to the final boss
That's a good idea worth digging more into, especially since it has a very human aspect to it instead of random, so it could be really fun and unique every time the world changes.
But as you can see from the replies the average moron is just here to win so when things are swapped around and they have to relearn things, they quit like losers.
MUDs have been doing that for literally decades. MUDs can only get away with it because it's 99% text.
MMOs can't get away with this kind of stuff because there's no pipeline imaginable that would facilitate the amount of work hours that would be required to pull that kind of stuff off while also turning a profit. You're talking about completely changing assets and entire regions on a whim, doing insane balance changes on a whim, and having no actual testing before hand to make sure what you're doing isn't going to utterly break the game.
It's a colossally stupid idea that only an "idea man" could come up with who would then tell a bunch of programmers "MAKE IT HAPPEN!"
And a functional idea that IRL realizes each moment of its existence.
Your programmers are simply inept, but then again, all your programmers are.
They prioritized artistic expression and lacking ergonomics in lieu of efficiency, mathematical precision, consistently high processing speeds and humanely optimal data input, so almost all human programmers are stuck measuring brackets and work with big data with a ~100 button keyboard one letter at a time.
LOL
All existing publicly available computational systems are not ergonomically optimal towards usage by humans on any level beyond surface UI.
Immense efficiency boons can be reached with correct hardware and software means, but whether it is not allowed through corp conspiracies or everyone is so incompetent that they chose to consider ~1960-80 PC framework as the end all be all of ergonomics remains to be seen.
Computers work in two ways, either they are faster than their operator, or slower then them. In the former case, one simply needs a capacity to rapidly create, input and operate data into machine on machine code level and you're set, all achievable with proper means, parseable by human brain without any augmentation. You're just incompetent.
8 months ago
Anonymous
Is this some kind of Ascended Idea Guy bullshit? What does any of your inane bullshit accomplish? Yeah bro tech and humanity just aren't where they should be, it's not that my idea is just too ambitious and resource intensive, nuh-uh no sir!
8 months ago
Anonymous
Sorry, if discourse is so antithetical to you, next time if there's a desire (certainly no need) to talk to you, I shall tell you exactly what you want to hear and nothing else.
All existing publicly available computational systems are not ergonomically optimal towards usage by humans on any level beyond surface UI.
Immense efficiency boons can be reached with correct hardware and software means, but whether it is not allowed through corp conspiracies or everyone is so incompetent that they chose to consider ~1960-80 PC framework as the end all be all of ergonomics remains to be seen.
Computers work in two ways, either they are faster than their operator, or slower then them. In the former case, one simply needs a capacity to rapidly create, input and operate data into machine on machine code level and you're set, all achievable with proper means, parseable by human brain without any augmentation. You're just incompetent.
>buncha peusdo-intellectual nonsense that amounts out to "computers are faster than human brains"
You seem to not actually understand what the OP was suggesting.
He's saying every single zone in the entire MMO gets it's own GM that gets to basically do whatever they want with it, whether that be completely destroy the region or build it up.
You can't just do that.
There are assets that need to be made to facilitate those changes. There is code to be written to facilitate those changes. There are checks and balanced that need to be solved to not crash the entire zone or server or game.
What OP is suggesting is akin to remaking entire MMO zones on a whim whenever the GM wanted. Something that takes months to do with dozens of people working on.
Can it be done? Yes. Can it be done and turn a profit? Absolutely not, not with our current technology.
It just wouldn't work. Things still have to be well designed.
MMO challenges and updates are fun because it's a sudden "puzzle" that the community at large has to "solve" so to speak.
It's deliberately designed and if you're there day 1 you get to see everyone throwing shit at the wall, discussing ideas, and gradually you'll probably notice a "meta" strat evolve or even come up with it yourself as a group, then it spreads as you play with others. That's the dynamic joy that's been lost as of late because everyone knows what to do and how to do it the moment anything actually gets added into the game. The joy of exploration and experimentation on a difficult challenge is lost and that won't be regained by just changing things, there has to be good planning behind it.
Other than skill balance changes, you're just describing private RP servers for survival games like ARK where you have special events and quests and shit run by moderators in game.
Play games that are less than 19 years old, dumbass. People act like datamining is some major problem yet they’re always talking about the exact same massive popular two-decade old game they‘re complaining about ten years after release. WoW didnt have datamining problems for its love patches, people had to figure that shit out and after playing the entire game they would later measure stuff and put it in a wiki, until they started just putting the wikis in the game as the adventure guide. Yet somehow you all act like everything’s mined completely from the beginning. The game is two decades old, get a grip
Mythic addition solved a little bit of the monotonousness but it then became a competition rather than enjoyment. Path of Exile like system would be better where system can scale to various content level. The game already does personal loot system, so whats the harm in allowing solo dungeons/raids?
MMOs just need a challenge aside from high end max level raids and shit
before it was
>I put a big huge mob here, can't kill it? not my problem >Yes, this boss instakills you, no, I'm not going to tell you why, figure it out yourself
now it's
>I must carefully design the leveling experience so people can do it fast, optimally and with the least resistance ever so they can get to my proposed max level themepark and grind these daily quests
The only way to stop data mining is to make the data inaccessible.
Basically impossible unless it's something that isn't UX dependent like a MUD down like a MUD. Maybe even a runescape-like. UX requires assets and assets are how they make educated guesses about content.
You can always reverse engineer, and the army of autists will be glad to test everything until the last number is catalogized because god forbid you do 0.3% less damage than you should
An army of autists reverse engineering through data crunching is not even remotely the same as sifting through assets to figure out unreleased content.
Story shit is irrelevant, nobody but lore spergs give a frick and itll all be posted on youtube regardless.
Well if you're talking about pure data that is client available it's literally impossible. You can't give a client data without the client having access to the data.
Streaming the client might work.
a variant on this would be basically making new shit be dynamic access: you don't even have the files for <x thing/area/whatever> until you enter it/encounter it/something it, at which point it downloads the relevant files and only those. could even apply it to drops of shit where it might be simply listed as 'weapon ID######' with no name or associated data until it drops for you (or you see someone else wielding it). it wont stop it, but it'll basically slow down the process a whole bunch.
WoW does that since forever for most things that aren't too big in size, i.e. not textures.
Some cutscenes are also encrypted and you get the decryption key only when doing the proper quest.
They used to do it for items too until somebody figured out a trick to ask the server what items a chest contains. Instead of patching the hole, they just allowed everyone to ask the server for item data whenever.
>Encrypt the files
Many dataminer websites, such as Wowhead, don't know how to decrypt the files. This is a good measure right off the bat. >Treat datamining being posted online as a crime against the company
Self explanatory. >Don't even show encrypted content.
Double-edged sword, since internal testers for MMOs are notoriously bad (see World of Warcraft and the innumerable bugs that always happen every patch as an example), but if it's not ready for the public, the public does not need to see it.
Bring the hammer down on datamining. I personally don't mind knowing the set pieces ahead of the story they're used in, but I fully understand the problems that datamining brings when it comes to a story or environment. For example, you see a model based on a character you like, and another model that looks eerily similar but with blatant corruption attached. One instance of this is, using World of Warcraft again, Ysera from the Legion expansion. Before we got to experience the story, we saw this green dragon have a corrupted form. Nobody knew what the frick it was for, but people went off on random tangents with speculations. Nobody knew she'd get ambushed by a crazy bastard, have a gem jabbed in her heart that corrupts her, and that she'd be killed by her best friend before randomly transforming into a constellation in the night sky while her allies with thick prostitute makeup watch in mourning.
Datamining spoils the fun to a degree. For some, that degree is too high, and that's perfectly reasonable.
MMOs have become glorified matchmaking lobbies. Dungeon and raid finders murdered any sense of community by teleporting you and several strangers from different servers into instanced content and then no one sees each other again.
Also recently MMOs have this strange focus on single player quests and stories. I don’t get it.
>streaming only, all you get is video you send inputs to >use DMCA against dataminers/datamining sites, sue the belligerent ones that don't get their hands out of your data
Really the only two ways you're doing this is giving them no data to pry open, or make them too afraid/make it too much of a hassle to do any mining.
data-mining isn't the problem, *you* are the problem for adopting the ethos of autistic hyper-competition, where you feel the need to be the first to do something, to compete against other players on parses, push high keys or over-complicate a mythic raiding roster with an absolute "meta-only" comp to "do thing faster". meta is a damning term when developers strive for parity in all specs, to where you could complete a mythic raid without a single one of what other people consider "S-tier" classes.
even if you don't do these things, you observe them to be the de facto way to play nowadays because guilds are centered around it and the culture has been poisoned by competition, where everything needs to be ranked or completed and consumed as quickly as possible. where we stream and glorify world first races, like locusts sucking on the marrow of fresh content until it's completely drained.
data-mining existed even in bygone eras with thottbot for WoW and allakazam for EQ, where whole quests were laid out from game data and commented on which simplified the process and dispelled any mystery or discovery a player could have experienced. the only difference between now and then is that the systems in play have been dumbed down and simplified such that there's no need for obscure or hidden measures, there's a big, glowing quest marker leading to your next destination, your most optimal spec is lifted from a site regurgitating aggregated data and you use that because it works and not because you appreciate the ability to develop your character how you want, because what you want is to ride what is best and most efficient, like an insect.
the only way to solve this made-up crisis is to make MMOs niche again and to have them be more focused on player interaction rather than what simplistic game systems we have today.
in short, to solve the problem just have a nice day. you're about as braindead as the people that used to clamor for "WoW 2".
this genre is dumbed down for the lowest common denominator and if that is your issue, it's a matter of perspective, but the games have historically been picked apart such that whole relic weapons, obscure quests and some of the rarest drops in the game were public knowledge before long. the only difference between now and then is in magnitudes of population count, such that things are discovered quicker and whatever "magic" you believe existed was sucked dry.
Datamining in EQ existed because there was no other way of even playing the game. It wasn't so much datamining as "how the frick do I do X". It wasn't used to exploit the game with meta-knowledge, it was literally part of exploration.
well the OP is conflating the two (data-mining and min-maxing). you can still do those things today, it's the game itself that is bereft of ways to give the player agency or a sense of discovery. there's no reason to interact with the people around you or ask general chat how to do something when you could just look up Wowhead. it's a sad state.
Datamining in EQ existed because there was no other way of even playing the game. It wasn't so much datamining as "how the frick do I do X". It wasn't used to exploit the game with meta-knowledge, it was literally part of exploration.
Well, it was an impressive numbers.
No other game written that on its own cd box, except maybe CnC 1 mentioning the sheer mass of players somewhere, I think?
I love how people still think that figure is valid. Blizzard cheated with their numbers back then too, not just when they counted every single preorder as a sale on release to give themselves the title of fastest selling game.
They never had 13m concurrent, I'd be surprised if they had even half of that.
I wonder if Blizzard will ever recognize that making leveling an expedient chore was the worst decision they ever made. In older WoW, leveling was the journey, it didn't matter if you were only level 37 or something, you had your own stories, from that group you joined to slaughter bloodscalps, to the healer who spot-healed you when you facepulled basilisks and they were chain petrifying you, or the mage who gave you intellect buff after you learned to use that snazzy dungeon blue you won. What player retention can be gleaned from '1-59 are worthless, just speedrun through it'?
>when you facepulled basilisks and they were chain petrifying you
Are people really so stupid they can't figure out that you won't get stunned if you don't look at them? Sheeeeesh
Data mining means going through game files looking for things. Usually meaning people looking through files of new patch to find stuff. What is the problem there? People looking up cutscene few hours early from files means jack shit
datamining can only be solved once streaming technology is good enough to the point where the entire game can be server side so the user doesn't download anything except an interface login program
Make it useless, and make internal game mechanics that not so much punish but rather outright disregard the most tasteless, shallow munchkin optimizers.
Normal optimizers are acceptable.
>boss has shield that negates damage if it's over a certain threshold >autistic optimizers do shit damage and have most of their attacks nullified while people playing the game normally do fine
>guy that got a lucky weapon drop and does 80% more damage than expected gets shafted >munchkins start optimising attacks per second or dot stacking
You will never be a game designer
They're just going to figure that out and then make a meter addon to tell them exactly how much damage to do to be within 1dps of the cap. There is no mechanic that can deal with a co-ordinated group.
Of-course there can be. Either it's an intelligent mechanic, a game master that acts like actual ttrpg ones, or a counter-group, and a mechanic that only tolerates actual skill than mere numbers.
Borderlands is one of the "numbers go up" games, yet even there one can be easily killed.
>gm
Not feasable and they're going to figure the shit or the content is just bricked because the gm wont let them actually do it. >skill based
You're already dealing with skilled players, execution is a given >counter group
This is just a pvp match now or built in greifers. PvPvE is aids and just leads to focusing one or the other.
Just pondering, eh. >Not feasable and they're going to figure the shit or the content is just bricked because the gm wont let them actually do it.
Worse, I'd say. Corruption and dramas will kick in. It kicks in games with cash shops until some literal millionaire buys out a way to the top. >skill
Should've clarified properly, dynamic skill test on the spot with more tactile mechanics that exploit the player more. Shooters like Quake are really physical in how strenuous they are on players. Put more pressure in some way basically. >griefers
Can be worked around but you're on point. What about substituting the E with P in PvE? Making E boost classes? Sorta like attacker vs defender skill sets?
8 months ago
Anonymous
>quake is strenuous
It's not even close to that.
8 months ago
Anonymous
I dunno, pro Quake play is rather rapid from what I recall, all that mad hopping and railgunning. At least, it works as an example of applied tactile skill.
Tribes/Tribes Ascend and TFC with concs works as that too.
8 months ago
Anonymous
What you want is a first person shooter, not an RPG.
8 months ago
Anonymous
It was just an example, I'm not sure how to word it. RPGs need not be limited to how their combat proceeds.
Precisely, though that runs into issues.
Anyhow, one could go beyond and make a dungeon master class, too!
Imagine, you play a "not too cool, but not low level" entity that mediates the way dungeons proceed, a story tied in hired functionalizer who installs traps, mercenary mage, etc. Your task is to throw spanners into someone else's raid when they get uppity, so just when they walk in with their fancy turbo combo you pull a trick that simply annuls it.
It's [Arcane] magic, I don't give a frick.
essentially playing as a monster class
would be cool to have unlocks from doing specific quests and then be able to play as a centaur for example and frick around
Make every boss into a Viscidus boss where you have to hit it with a certain element a million times before you can kill it. The mechanics happen around you while you attack the boss and if people die then you won't have enough attacks to break the shield
Oh wait no that sounds awful frick that
I feel like all games, including single player games, have a problem with people chasing the meta or looking up guides. As an example, the people in WoW who just copy their builds from the internet or look up a leveling route. Datamining is just a part of that, I think.
you can try to obfuscate as much of the data as possible or keep certain things server side but players will figure it out eventually.
the only other option would be to change it frequently so its always new but that could be alot of effort for the purpose of...? what exactly?
One of the only skillsets that people learn from playing videogames is optimization. slapping them on the wrist for doing just that is stupid even if the end result of their optimization is a less interactive playerbase.
Really, the flaw is in the game itself.
It doesn't allow non-linear battle methods, lacks in chaos, and is limited sorely to either target based point and 1 click, or target based skill click.
Absent of other game mechanics, only way is to make a complex, deep math infrastructure that fundamentally disallows select railroads while still allowing singular conclusions.
Complex magical economics of damage that either put some pressure and shift initiative on player's skill, or possess components that are entirely up to player's usage and are not reducible to linear number superiority.
You'll could also just have all the assets stored encrypted locally with a unique key that thee server serves when needed too. But server asset streaming is already done in online world's now.
You don't need/want high fidelity graphics in a MMO. Asset sizes aren't going to be massive, we literally already have games right now that are playable with a couple mb of core interface files that stream the assets from servers as they're needed.
This is how you fix MMOs >add more solo content >make said solo content drop bis >said solo content must also be insanely difficult to a point where 99.999% of players cant do it
There I fixed MMOs
WoW in my eyes would be so much more epic with more dynamic content like capturable cities outside of bgs. Like Imagine seeing a raid of 40 people of the opposite raiding a huge city you were using as a travel point and quest hub as a lv 5 paladin. After they've captured it you'd need to find a new city to call home.
that sounds cool until you see it in action, then you realize the zone your level 20 character just spent 45 minutes walking to is no longer a quest hub and you need to spend 30 minutes on Windriders and boats just to get back to your capital so you can start another 45 minute trek to the only other level appropriate zone (that will probably get conquered by the same 40 man group that cucked you out of your last zone since they can get there way faster than you).
It's better if you do it like FFXI where zones get "conquered" but they don't become completely unusable for low level characters unrelated to the war, they just lose some vendors and maybe get a bit more dangerous to quest at.
I still remember this fricker from back in the day. Also went by Joana. Every fresh server that got released he'd be the first to 60. Dude must've been doing 3 day long coke benders.
>add gear loss on death and PvP zones >remove all character-bound progression and power >more gathering and crafting, less RNG loot tables >have horizontal progression instead of numbers going up insanely high for no reason >remove the partyfinder and give solo players more content >reward players who complete group content as a guild
There I fixed every MMO.
it can work if gear isn't powerful. a more skilled player should always beat someone with better gear but between equal skilled players the better geared player should win most of the time. the problem with this is that geargays are autistic and have no skill so they believe gear should be the only thing that matters
If there's no difference why would a player try to get the gear? Why wouldn't he just play a proper skill-based pvp game with no gear instead? The questions are rhetorical, you don't have to answer, and you should never work on game design.
We are in a WoW thread. The smallest level difference makes the stronger player immortal in that game. Meanwhile in a PvP game the player wearing the best everything risks 50 times what the average player brings, just to be maybe 20% stronger.
Exactly. That's why no one would do that. >risks
What for? Why? Reason? Purpose? Meaning? Significance? Why the everloving frick would someone risks something he put his time into to beat some random shitter on the other side of the planet in some basket weaving pvp mini-game? Wowgays don't even want to pvp as it is right now, with ZERO risk, they would still opt-out of pvp because even their worthless basement dwelling time is not worth it. Holy shit you Lineage gays are the most dumbest creatures ever.
8 months ago
Anonymous
>but what if I lose...
You can also win and it will be a million times more memorable than doing no risk no reward PvE.
The average player will run around in a budget set that's easy to replace. Equipment itself is treated like a consumable. Think of games like Rust.
8 months ago
Anonymous
My most memorable wins were from vanilla WoW world pvp, they had 0 risk, but it was fun because the game was fun because internets were fun back then, and no amount of full drop could bring that fun back. I can't remember shit after that. Zero x million is still zero.
i didn't say there wasn't any difference you subhuman fricking moron shit eating mmo playing homosexual frick. have a nice day. i said disabled garbage like you shouldn't be able to win just because of your gear. you're seething with tard rage at the thought of gear not being the primary factor you can't even read properly
Ascension wow has gear loss on death in high risk pvp zones
They are dominated by people playing in groups murdering anyone coming close to steal their gear and to monopolize all the high risk materials. I'm sure some people find murderballs fun but in the end only a very small percentage of people even get to interact with the system because they're pushed out before they can even get in properly so people don't even bother any more.
You could do some changes to the game so you don't run into unfair situations like this. A reputation system, a debuff for zergs and safezones. Nobody likes non-consensual PvP.
WoW is a PvE MMO and not a PvP MMO. Getting ganked by high-level players is probably the only PvP experience they get.
People are still going to push those rules to the limit to monopolize and stay ahead of the pack making it impossible to enter into the pvp system as a new player. The rich only get richer while the poor get kicked out unceremoniously. Pvp in general is just a bad idea in mmos but people still cling the hope that they'll have fun with it one day.
Don't have public testing realms and hire actually testers. Don't release data for upcoming patches even if that means patches will be larger and take longer to download and go after data miners in the court room, other companies have done that successfully.
Don't put your data in the game files until it's ready to launch.
This isn't 2004 anymore, average download speed of poorgays is about 10 MB/s and people who got ethernet should have more, and people with the GOOD shit can go between 100 and 300 MB/s.
Yeah bro people play Elden Ring and such following a complete filled out interactable map. Hell barely anyone tries to find collectibles and things like feathers from AC without an explicit map
Its only a problem because devs like the WoW ones allow it. XIV doesn't have a PTR server. And they only let you download the patch a few hours before it goes live. Sure, people do datamine during those few hours but its usually limited and hidden because they ban anyone who discusses or shares it in the game or forums.
>How do we solve datamining in MMORPGs?
By randomizing everything. >Overworld >Dungeon entrances in said world >The dungeons itself
Every week, the layout, the biomes, they get randomized.
Oh god no, are you insane? How are you supposed to get anything done? ‘Alright I need a new sword the level of the rest of my gear and more of those health elixirs, I’ll just go… uh… well I’ll just walk somewhere and get whatever’
Full-loot PvP games will give you highs and lows that a safe PvE game can't deliver. Isn't that what you want?
WoW players are bored with their game because nothing feels special anymore. PvE gets boring. Datamining isn't the problem. You are just scared of interacting with other players.
Yeah because getting your ass kicked again and again would feel so special. Losing your gear again and again would be so special. Winning to one homosexual to get a carrot after losing to other homosexual and losing your whole fricking gear would be so special. >git gud lmao
And that's why no one ever takes you seriously. Like, ever, not in a slightest. You come to a room full of people who don't want to get good and tell them to get good. They don't want to. They want to turn off their brain and see the numbers go big. People who wanted to get good moved to other genres fricking aeons ago. Only you lineagetards are so stuck in the past you still believe mmohomosexuals want to get good.
The whole game has to be built ground up to facilitate full loot pvp and have level brackets, multi and single combat areas to even be feasible, otherwise it's just ganksquads made up of sweatiest and most moronic players will dominate the whole server
wow players and mmo players in general are by far the most bottom of the barrel subhuman garbage to exist. no, they don't want a challenge. look at their games, they load them with addons so they can do as little thinking as possible. modern mmo players are nothing more than glorified simon says players and taking simon says seriously is fricking cringe
a bunch of severely mentally ill pve care bears are the least chill people around. what they like doing is invading every single mmo that releases, demand it be shaped in wow's image, get what they want then leave the game they destroyed because they are degenerate addicts
MMOs are an unsalvageable genre because morons can't get over FOMO solipsism which means it's necessarily not a living, active world which means the only content is static or inconsequential which means it has to be designed which will make it an overly instanced themepark.
Basically if you're the kind of baby who cries over logging a minecraft server to see your house nuked and your first thought is to quit then you're exactly why mmos will never be good.
Can we finally admit TBC is better than wrath now? It had way higher retention than Wrath classic. The proof is in the numbers. TBC had issues but it's still way better than wrath. I'd come back for TBC classic unironically
>hurfdurrr muh wikis and instant information killed mmoz
Shit like that literally always existed you were just a child back then who was too moronic to search for them and probably believed SA bigfoot shit too while getting laughed about on gtanet
I never understood the problem. Care to explain?
People are not playing the game anymore, they're literally on autopilot trying to get the biggest numbers possible because apparently all the magic of MMO is gone
>People are not playing the game anymore, they're literally on autopilot trying to get the biggest numbers possible because apparently all the magic of MMO is gone
always been the case. MMOs are just treadmill MUDs.
this gets reposted everythread but its total revisionist history. ToS was #3 at best. they just whined and moaned on the forums more than anyone else.
>revisionist history
I remember seeing this image pop up in 2006, where does it say that ToS was the best raiding guild?
Man I miss being content with MUDs. They also theoretically solve data mining by not requiring clients to download all assets. Give me an MMO that looks and plays like Dwarf Fortress adventure mode.
People were always trying to get the biggest numbers possible, it's just that even the best players were so giga-awful at it that from the contemporary perspective it's difficult to see they were even trying (they were). And what exactly does that have to do with datamining?
The loss of "sense of adventure" is just bad, linear, content, and lack of atmosphere. I've probably leveled 30+ vanilla 1x equivalents of characters (say, Wrath in 2x rate private server would be ⅓ characters) and legacy-WoW still feels adventurous to me. It's because it takes you on globetrotting adventures that feel organic, not a rollercoaster ride through the zones, and because the areas are incredibly atmospheric so running around them is a joyous experience for that reason alone.
The Barrens were fricking awful in Classic. Rope.
Barrens were one of the most enjoyable zones in the game you absolute Black person.
>Run around doing shitty fetch quests and backtracking for 30 minutes/quest
lol, lmao even.
>Ambience=Gameplay
Rope.
Funny how you think not being able to experience the magic of barrens makes you right, when in fact you just look like a dumb-dumb
I experienced the "magic" of the barrens on my Orc Shaman. I got bored of hitting animals with my mace and went back to my Cata private server.
>orc shaman
I'm so sorry
Yeah it's almost like WoW was shit back when the game had no depth and was a cakewalk but half of the specs were still unusable. WoW started with Cata
>Cata private server
holy shit it's moronic. we're talking about the real barrens zoomie-kun, not post cata barrens and not WoW Classic barrens.
>one of the most iconic and revered zones in the entire game
>fricking awful
Your opinion is literally shit
it’s only revered due to general chat. no one actually enjoys questing in the barrens besides autists
Bro most people who played MMO's are to any degree are fricking autists. Even back in the day the normal teens and college students were out getting their dicks sucked and socializing IRL not spending their fridays cooped up in their rooms with only their own farts and teamspeak to keep them company.
>getting their dicks sucked
That's disgusting. Why would I be doing that when I can farm epic loot
>all that backtracking
enlighten someone whose never played wow before and tell me what made left so great?
The atmosphere and being just another fricking worthless footsoldier, and not muh chosen one as in modern wow
>Man I wish we could go back to those good old days of being a nameless foot soldier like in vanilla
>Yeah we were just a rag-tag group of mercs who killed an elemental lord, the leaders of the black dragonflight, an old god, and the lich king's right hand man
>Good times, being a no-name schlub was so fun
It was a journey
A journey with the dumbest of endings, how exactly did punching wolves in the mouth and picking up their teeth for an elf prepare you to fight dragons?
>All those things die to footsoldiers in the RTS.
>people get mad that players arent chozen wons! in the mmo
Never understood that
>>Yeah we were just a rag-tag group of mercs who killed an elemental lord, the leaders of the black dragonflight, an old god, and the lich king's right hand man
1. Ragnaros hadn't manifested fully and was weakened.
2. You kill a couple of Deathwing's children.
3. Old gods weren't shit back then
4. A lvl 10 Lich.
All of these bosses were just Warcraft 3 units. You are indeed a no-name adventurer in Vanilla.
>blizzard retconned their power level later so it doesn't count
ok buddy
They didn't. In WoW the bosses you fought were the equivalent of lvl 10 heroes in WC3.
Should just have sent in Thrall considering he's like level 63 or something after the RTS games. He'd shit on everything
wait until you find out that Arthas, Anub'Arak and a few crypt fiends killed a pseudo old god by themselves.
was that in w3 or vanilla?
mind you wow lore was shit before vanilla released
Frozen Throne.
you mean after
since they announced forsaken being part of the horde for wow , the lore was going to be shit from that point onwards
Literally just get the frick outside and play life.
Adventure = cool
Complete knowledge = no adventure
Linear pathing == adventure
Compare the layout of BRD to any modern dungeon
You walk around in the world doing things
In vanilla WoW you are just some guy, in modern WoW you are THE Guy. So Vanilla questing is just walking around doing shit all over the whole world, odd jobs, killing bandits and local pests, you might have to travel far to do a quest instead of it just being a train full of stops. Even during end content raiding you are just one guy of up to 40 guys. So there is a good sense of adventure.
>In vanilla WoW you are just some guy
>defeat elemental lord, black dragonflight, blood god, old god and arthas's right hand
even in lower level locations you're usually wreck some big guy's shit
and in Legion, killing Ysera is a solo quest.
Yeah WoW was way better when the player character was AT BEST the equivalent of a 3-4 food unit in War3. Like your level 60 night elf druid with maxed out gear? you're just a Druid of the Claw that an Ancient of Lore shit out for 300 gold in 30 seconds.
Eh, they could've spun it out as some metaphysical backing that pushes foot soldiers to legendary heights, or make all players into those weird planeswalker in training analogues from all over the universe that went into Azeroth once Legion broke some reality barriers.
>left
>have to put in effort and time to explore an environment
>right
>get shoved down a hallway to get your dose of dopamine in perfectly spaced doses after hours of playtesting
On the right side, you're pretty much forced to do the quests in a specific order. You're led from one micro quest hub to the next, and if you try to go to one out of order, there won't be anything for you there. There's usually like 10+ of these little hubs and they all have 3-5 quests each, and you'll never need to return to any of these hubs after you finish their quests. It's extremely linear and hand holding, you really don't need to think at all.
On the left side, you go into a main town and there are immediately a bunch of quests you can pick up. Some are for your level, and some you won't be able to complete until you're higher level, but for the most part you can accept almost all of them. It's up to the player to choose which quests to do and in which order. You'll return to these towns often, so you'll often see lots of players running around. You can go into any of these towns and as long as you're high enough level, you can pick up quests there, no need to follow a linear, per-determined path.
Pretty much every single Cata zone is like the right side, it's awful.
as a microcosm, it presented an MMO 'done right', where many players of varying progression and skill were roughly lumped into the same world space and interacting with eachother.
But WoW simply wasn't the game for it. Progression continued 'forever' eventually straining the audience so thin not even so many stacked layers in one zone could support a healthy population in the single zone
You see backtracking, which is for sure bad for a themepark MMO - but the point is, it was good because it presented itself as if WoW was NOT a themepark MMO.
It is all gone. The only people playing MMOs are 22 year olds who have to minmax everything because they don't have any time spare in the wagie life to just enjoy the experience.
>The only people playing MMOs are 22 year olds
lmao, they are 40 year old addicts
>REEEEEEE STOP PLAYING STRENGTH WARRIOR WHY DONT YOU PLAY STRENGTH WIZARD LIKE ME YOU FRICKING TRYHARDS
kys
genuine moron
it more like
>oh you want to play warrior? Sorry bud but according to this internet chart wizard outclasses warrior by 3.8% so you need to reroll or you dont get to play
yes every single guild in every single mmo runs a hyper optimized setup, you're not being disingenuous at all and im sure you can name which mmo you're referring to with this moronic analogy
worlo of warcrap classique
>t. 22 year old
Pretty much only brand new games will have this element. Anything else will have a meta that is solved. Would be awesome if one day we could somehow have it different though, the videogames program themselves as they go.
A huge draw of video games is not knowing what's around the corner.
The magic of Warcraft was completely ruined by Thottbot, Allakhazam and Wowhead.
Datamining allows people to know 100% of a game's content, piecing all assets together and cataloguing everything.
So, instead of raiding destroyed ruins to defeat an adversary and being rewarded with new quests, items and socializing, you just silently queue up your random dungeon finder to farm one dungeon 20 consecutive times to get one slightly rare item from a specific boss.
Maybe people wouldn't behave like this if they weren't expected to run the same dungeons and raids several dozen times to get what they want
Nothing is surprising anymore. The moment the patch drops everything has already been seen. The only exception I can think of are boss transition cutscenes in FF14, but even then the animations are fully datamined, the only thing that gets seen first on a world progression stream is the camera work used in the transitions.
Everything is already solved before it even comes out. Unless you bury your head in the sand and exclusively play with friends that agree to do the same, it's generally expected that you'll look up some guy on YouTube telling you how to play optimally, or else you'll be a liability.
Videogames as a whole are solved content outside shit with languages people have to learn like Tunic or Fez.
I think a key problem here is respeccing being too easy: if you can conveniently swap out specializations (is it really a specialization anyway if you can just swap it on demand?) every time you do a different activity, or even a different boss, then it is easy to theorycraft an optimized build for that exact circumstance. In contrast, if you can't swap specs on demand, then the circumstances you are optimizing the build for are somewhat unique for each player and while there in principle exists a solution for any given weighing of activities, there doesn't exist an universal solution.
Not being able to change it means people cant afford to take risks or theyll brick their character
There's a difference between not being able to respec at all and not being able to respec at will. Many Diablo2likes for instance require you to relevel skills a bit after changing them around, or a complete talent revamp is fairly expensive. But way way below the effort that goes into making an entirely new character (let's say 30 minutes of earning back shit, say, which is prohibitive for respeccing for each individual boss, but entirely reasonable if you feel your build is bricked). Hell, vanilla/TBC respec costs are pretty reasonable too on that count: the problem is there being so few situational talents that there isn't many even potentially contextual decisions to begin with: a balance issue, not fundamental design issue.
So let me restate what I'm imagining: it's easy for theorycrafters to find global optimum for damage when you have so-and-so much movement, so-and-so encounter duration, so-and-so available buffs, so-and-so gear level, etc. Given that you are using the build in those exact circumstances, it's simply correct, and there isn't a reason to use anything but. But if you can't change talents at will and the build has to be more well-rounded, there isn't any specific amount of movement, prevalence of AoE vs single target, available buffs, gear, and other factors that you can throw into simulation, and what kind of content a given player does and in what company, isn't something they CAN know. In other words, while good builds are informed by theorycrafting considerations, there's some potential even for novices to pick what works for them in their own circumstance, and those decisions potentially being better than some online guide that doesn't know what those circumstances ARE.
Those circumstances go into build and comp choices, also most of the time you just minmax towards x thing and cover the gap with a different class more minmaxed towards y
>also most of the time you just minmax towards x thing and cover the gap with a different class more minmaxed towards y
That's very much true especially in raiding context (the whole holy trinity thing, which is basically inevitable because it's better for one guy to focus entirely on defense and one on damage, than two guys to do a mix of both and then be one-shot by the boss), but I can imagine there being more nuance than that. Say, in Wrath of the Lich King it's strictly speaking optimal for disc priests not to even have their capstone talent penance (for some fights), precisely because holy paladin is so overwhelmingly better in single target healing that even trivial bonuses to shielding are better than an ability you wouldn't use because someone else will cover that base for you. As it is now a tryhard could even dualspec a build with penance and build without penance, supposing they'll always be healing.
But suppose it wasn't all about 25-man raiding. If instead other game modes were also "relevant", and the performance in 5-mans where you're the sole healer was also a consideration. Or you actually had to farm, too, and not so that you could make an alt for it. Perhaps PvP was a concrete risk and not giving it any credence would be self-handicapping. Perhaps some bosses demanded really different kinds of builds (for example, even builds like dual-earthliving enhancement healing build, or healing ret build, could work for General Vezax, if it wasn't for the fact that Blizzard specifically added a debuff that gives 90% healing debuff if you had specced deep into enha/ret). Or whatever.
Perhaps you'd respec for a specialized 25-man raiding build (with or without penance) during progression. But if there were pulls for all kinds of directions for general gameplay and you couldn't respec daily, who's to say you should give 100% priority to raiding and 0% to everything else? And the degree in which each player value these other aspects differs!
>give one free respec a month/3 months/whatever period
>charge a one off fee for an additional skill tree
that's more or less what pso2 did, and it worked pretty well back before they simplified the skill trees to be so linear that you could literally everything of note in a single tree.
It’s the opposite. Being unable to respec means you have to look up exactly what to spec in so you don’t destroy your character
>Being unable to respec means you have to look up exactly what to spec in so you don’t destroy your character
Or you could just play the game
>dude just brick your character and piss 20-60 hours down the drain
Vs
>let buildsperg with a calculator and set square figure it out in a 10th of the time and do what hes done
>20-60 hours down the drain
How can those hours go down the drain just because your character is shit? If playing those hours wasn't fun, why were you doing it in the first place?
Also, god forbid you play a game more than once, as people used to do in the before-times.
Yes, there are shitloads of other games competing for my time and wasted effort is a massive buzzkill regardless of how fun.
>I had 60 hours of fun
>oh wait I've just decided that wasn't fun at all, making the fact that I chose to keep playing nonsensical
You have a mental illness
These people, even if they’re having fun, don’t notice that they are because they’re distracting themselves by hinging their satisfaction on the endgame, on some future moment they’re not even in. They all hate their favorite games and think Elden Ring and such are trash because they felt diminishing returns at hour 120
MMOs begin at max level.
Vanilla wow was the only decent MMO and the only decent part of it was the levelling.
Vanilla wow was shit compared to Guildwars.
mogged by gw1 and ffxi, WoW was always pissbaby crap for normalgays with prebuilt budget shitrigs
>and exclusively play with friends that agree to do the same
also good fricking luck finding 9-24 other people who are willing to actually do that. at most you'll find some people who pretend to do it, but are remarkably prepared for everything that shows up.
STOP SPREADING THESE LIES!
WE WERE TOTALLY BLIND!!!! STOP BEING WEIRD/CRINGE/GATEKEEPY!
Simply make those numbers magical, duh!
But if your game lacks any proper means to tackle that math depth truly while lacking in actual game parts as opposed to some fps or rts, until your game isn't really a game but a mere math framework around a glorified spell click simulator, well, you won't fix that easily.
And games like PoE and MU online likely have you bet on that math front, too.
I'd say it completely killed the.magic of a game since it removes any modicum of ambiguity.
Guild Wars had a lot of myths surrounding it that were really hard to disprove (like that claim that you would be able to fight Grenth if you did all the quests and cleared all mobs in the Underworld). In the age of datamining such endevours get snuffed out straight away, back then you'd have occasional people actually try to do all that (hardest part were the timed quests).
Imagine if someone saw you looking at patch notes for a game you like and called you a dirty cheater with no sense of wonder because you didn't wait to experience all of the listed new features organically without even knowing they exist. Now, imagine how angry that person gets when a studio decides to put the next patch up on a separate server for months in advance so people can test all of that new content ahead of time and give feedback.
Feedback that will be ignored until long after that content has been fully released and has received further updates.
Make new games and sequels instead of creating 'forever games' with endless patches and expansions.
>new game comes out
>on launch day everything is already datamined
>nobody cares about lore, world, socializing
New MMOs and new games in general are usually a blast to play because nobody knows anything, most people want to explore the game themselves instead of spoiling it by looking at others. There's also a limit to how much information a player can absorb in a single day, Of course you're free to wait a week or two after launch and read everything about it before playing and ruin it for yourself, nothing can be done about you being an idiot.
If the game has an element of skill involved instead of relying purely on numbers and stats then people will actually have to play the game and learn it. Skillbased gameplay is something you can't learn by reading wikis so MMOs should definitely have more of that.
>nobody cares about lore, world
Suppose that's because the fluff is boring and sucks and isn't worth getting invested in
>socializing
Now, as a matter of fact neo-MMOs do differ from older games in various ways, such as being designed to be soloable. That being said, many older games like WoW 1.x in OPs pic related actually were designed like that from the starts, people were simply playing them "wrong" (contrary to mechanical incentives). What you want is to make the most fun playstyles also the mechanically preferred ones (there's a nice Sid Meier quote to that effect: basically people are going to do what they're going to do, and your task as a designer is to make sure what they're doing is the fun approach). For example, even a small change like enabling quest loot in party, a change implemented by various WoW private servers, suddenly makes it worth it to level in a party and who would have thought, people do.
Because "real world" (or any fictional world) doesn't actually function so conveniently as rare herbs required for a cure to a poison just happening to grow next to the house of a poisoner you're told to bring to justice. The OG questing structure makes the game world feel like an actual world, and additionally allows players to be efficient about their routing (being efficient feels innately good), whereas a fully linear structure doesn't even allow failure, and as such cannot provide this satisfaction.
>Because "real world" (or any fictional world) doesn't actually function so conveniently as rare herbs required for a cure to a poison just happening to grow next to the house of a poisoner you're told to bring to justice. The OG questing structure makes the game world feel like an actual world, and additionally allows players to be efficient about their routing (being efficient feels innately good), whereas a fully linear structure doesn't even allow failure, and as such cannot provide this satisfaction.
This. Overdesign leads to non-organic gameplay
Cloud gaming. What are you gonna mine homosexual all you're getting is a videostream.
I've always wondered whether it's possible to just have the things you don't want datamined hosted on the server instead of downloaded onto your PC
Yes it's possible dumbass, streaming games from a server has been a thing for years.
People also don't like it and it's bad for freedom.
They're just going to experiment and get the numbers manually like many other games, and because 10000 of them are doing this and have experience doing it again and again it will be as quick. Not to mention unless you have new gameplay most formulas will be similar to other games to start with.
who cares about numbers and damage formulas and drop rates, datamining just ruins hidden content for the most part
>hidden content
Same problem, you have 100k people cruising around, someone finds it, posts it and its known
Because everyone keeps crying at build spergs mathing out the optimal builds and destroying the content in a day.
I like half pf them are clearly upset they lost the race but can’t outright say that so need to come up with nonsense to cope like “haha you didn’t farm gold” well unless you bought gold your not affording 1k mount as a fresh 60 regardless
I hate how I used to avoid sites like wowhead to not get spoiled but everyone in the guild obviously did it and then just tried to rush trough new dungeons and raids. I honestly wondered why they even play the game at that point.
there's nothing to solve, shit gets datamined because the developers want it to be. If you hide it decently enough, even if there are giga autists working full time to decrypt and leak your stuff, the general public won't even care about it generally.
>If you hide it decently enough
How do you do so?
Unmarked quests and triggers. In Legion, WoW started “secrets” which are basically big, hidden questchains with every task of it hidden. Almost impossible to datamine since nothing is listed or labelled like regular quests, you’d have to manually analyse every line of code which isn’t what dataminers do.
Here’s an example:
warcraft-secrets.com/guides/the-hivemind
Every step you see described here had to be figured out by the players, nothing ever showed up in any quest log or as a map marker.
>Every step you see described here had to be figured out by the players, nothing ever showed up in any quest log or as a map marker.
Then how do you actually get any info? Do npcs even say something or what?
The initial “discovery” is usually accidental.
>hey this shit wasn’t here before
Once people realise that there might be something, they start investigating. some of it is trial and every (“lets equip this talisman and see if anything in the entire world is different now”), some of it is previous discoveries (“there’s this named npc in the middle of nowhere with no quests connected to it, maybe he’s related to this new stuff?”) and some stuff is straight up puzzles, like the letters in the hivemind:
>Each clue is a nonsense phrase, with some of the words being capitalized. The capitalized words make up an anagram that provides a hint on where to find the next clue. You must reach each letter in order.
>First Letter: The key Factor in successful Wasp Ignition is a solid Ad campaign.
Solution: The Wasp Ad Ignition Factor --> ANTICIPATORS OF DEATHWING
In northeastern Highmountain is a tribe of tauren known as the Prepfoots. They are preparing for Deathwing's return (apparently unaware that the Cataclysm already occurred). On a table in one of their huts, you'll find the next clue.
Interesting, but how do you hide data about more normal stuff like new mobs? Is there a way?
btw.
>They are preparing for Deathwing's return (apparently unaware that the Cataclysm already occurred).
lel
>PTR
>Public Test Realm
Well, with stuff like that it's hard to hide anything.
>Well, with stuff like that it's hard to hide anything.
Including Blizzard's own incompetence when it comes to fixing shit. People report a bug day 1 of PTR and it's not fixed on release several months later
I was kinda wondering how bugs are even a thing if there are players autistic enough to check every piece of new content.
Damn, Blizzard has gone to shit.
I see.
But if the game didn't have PTR, it would stay a mystery for longer, right?
Yea, but not testing something like a new raid or dungeon would be a disaster. Though I think blizz at least always kept the final boss of mythic raids off the PTR (for better and for worse).
>Yea, but not testing something like a new raid or dungeon would be a disaster.
Even moreso than they already are on release? I remember playing the megadungeon from last expansion and one boss would give you an unsolvable pattern and just murder you sometimes. Got fixed later supposedly but I didn't stick around long enough to find out.
Yes, it would be much worse. Cue comment about blizzard competence here.
Tbh I was never too annoyed by data mining, I just didn’t pay attention if I didn’t want to get spoiled
Assets are virtually impossible to hide lest you want them not on the PTR in the first place (which is possible, using placeholder names and models).
just don't put stuff on the PTR that you don't want to be seen.
I mean, we're at a point where if you log into the PTR you can just open the dungeon journal and see the entire raid's bosses, with every detail about every phase, every item they drop, flavour text, models and so on
I'd say at this point anything that's not shoving it in people's face would be good enough
Does't matter, it will by mathed out by optimisation autismos no matter what, thats what all living things do.
go back to companies TESTING THEIR SHIT and not release games/expansions/patchs without any testing done
Frick MMOs, how about gams in general.
>all those 'mysteries' in pokemon, GTASA, etc, that single-handedly kept people entertained for years
Now the only "mystery" that is found is cut content and future DLC shit.
can't you just encrypt the data files somehow or make them ambiguous?
Encrypting game files never works because the game itself has to be able to decrypt them at some point, so all you have to do is watch what it does and then you can reverse engineer it.
Not if the values for decryption have to be fetched from a server
Doesn't work like that. The game still has the values at the end of it, and they can't change constantly because the files are on your PC, unchanging.
It's incredibly simple and WoW already does it. You encrypt the files.
But Blizzard wont do this because datamining is free news to them.
So I'm a gamedev and I know how to solve it, hear me out
>make mmo as usual, but make the type of content it has dynamic. i'm talking everything from zones all the way down to individual class skills, make everything easily malleable and subject to change on whim
>employ several "game masters". one per zone is ideal but fewer would work too. make sure they work together and know about each other's actions
>every few days, game masters radically change something. maybe a zone gets totally demolished, maybe a certain spell gets weaker due to magical forces, make whatever up
>the world continually changes and shifts
>nobody can datamine shit
>even your hometown is subject to explode randomly one day and you'll have to adjust
>your skills get shifted around and change randomly to the point where you have to relearn how to use them nearly every time
Thoughts?
>Thoughts?
Shit idea
Randomising everything is dogshit and just fricking random players out of nowhere will make everyone quit.
to me sounds fun
but then i expected the base above orgrimmar to "advance slowy" eventually on wow and it didn't for 8 years till cata
Change the world all you want, but if you frick with my build, I'm dropping your game faster than your mom dropped you as a child.
Frick your build, the age of darkness arrived and now all your shadow spells deal 60% more damage but all your holy spells are useless, adapt or quit, b***h
quitting sounds like a pretty good option for a shitty game like that
Fine, go play your predictable games
*quit*
*game dies during the first year*
Your move
this is pretty accurate
>enjoy class
>gets ruined by patchs
>drop game
it happened enough times in wow
funny enough this is how the crypto ETH started. Blizz nerfed the ETH founders WoW class and he decided to quit and channel his energy elsewhere which was crypto.
mmos definitely need shit similar to this, basically events that aren't on any schedule, just controlled by a GM or something, imagine logging in and the sky goes red and a bunch of dragons descend on the city or something, nothing in the game ever hints at this it just happens and nobody knows whats happening, oh and it never happens again so you just had to be there
>So I'm a gamedev
>make mmo as usual
>the world continually changes and shifts
>your skills get shifted around and change randomly to the point where you have to relearn how to use them nearly every time
>Thoughts?
I think you're not a gamedev
This is not a realistic concept, as a game dev how much resources would be required to implement something like this let alone maintain the unpredictability of such a system? I'm not a game dev but if completely dynamic worlds were easy to create/implement, surely someone would have done it by now. Also imagine the frustration of doing content like a dungeon and doing it a second time and everything changed. Where the frick is this quest mob, where is the boss? Then the next day the dungeon is gone completely, how do you handle loot anx quests? IDK it sounds less appealing the more I consider it.
Matrix Online did it just fine
>gamedev knows absolutely nothing about videogames
checks out
you're not a fricking gamedev, you've never programmed everything in your miserable life, and you fricking certainly have never played classic WoW
>haha what if one day we randomly decided to blow up stranglethorn vale and both factions were just stuck in their 30s without any decent places to level wouldn't that be fun and hilarious :*~~
>stranghelthorn its the only place to level at 30
stop pretending you played wow
learn to read homosexual
when you play wow for once in your life moron
1. Matrix online did it so you're clearly wrong on the feasibility aspect
2. I wrote several game engines in C++ and am working on my first full-featured indie title
3. I have 10k+ hours in classic WoW
the type of player to instantly discard ideas like this thinks fixing the game is
>more shit to collect and more milestone achievements
>less shop more grind
>do it like x years ago and never evolve
fact #1: if the game could've died, it would've between BFA/SL
fact #2: the game cannot improve so long as it's publicly traded and located in LA
fact #3: to SUCCEED, a man embodying the divine potential of the western tradition must be given a blank check to have the final say on everything
fact #4: #3 will never happen because #2 has no reason to change because of #1
BFA and SL did kill off most of the population and they never returned for dragonflight even though it was okish.
>dragonflight
>okish
not even leveling was okish on dragonshit
and that was the only part of wow that was good lately
Leveling is pointless and I have no idea why its even a thing when everything during it is irrelevant. Felt like a speedbump more than anything, especially during Wrath.
i agree with that, but still it was the only good thing blizzard manage to do good (sometimes worse but overall good)
MMORPGs are not for you.
No, I had heaps of fun with raiding and pvp.
Go play DDR, you might lose some weight
>enjoy the shit an mmo is worth playing over a single player game for
>dont enjoy grinding bear asses and zebra hooves to get to it
Why do people get shitter shattered at this. Filling the xp bar is the shittiest part of any mmo.
>Filling the xp bar is the shittiest part of any mmo.
But that's exactly what ilvl and artifact power etc. are, except you do it by repeating the same mundane minigame over and over. If you disagree, explain why WoW is dead.
Ill do you one better, item shit as a reward for co-ordinated fights is why monster hunter is so massive and why wow even has players at all still.
MonHun has an end point. The AP grind introduced in Legion and reintroduced every expansion thereafter is a treadmill designed to force the player to log in repeatedly or risk falling behind their peers, and then later 'fixed' at the end of the expansion to make keeping concurrent worthless and have the playerbase cheer them on for 'listening to feedback'. I make Flammenzahn and upgrade a few times and it's fricking done, I have my fire greatsword.
Frontier is a live service one. Also Artifact power was one of the worst things they ever did and existed to try slow down shitsockers and thats it.
>Frontier
>live
Not anymore.
This mindset is exactly what killed MMOs by turning them into glorified lobby-based games. Go play your Tanks/Dota/Valorant/Destiny but only after you have a nice day.
None of those have 25man raids or battlegrounds.
lolwut? literally all those games are is battlegrounds.
and they don't have raids because, surprise surprise grouping up with 25 people to beat a boss isn't particularly fun with no persistent reward attached to it, almost like the act of character building actually does have a point.
Battlegrounds is 20v20 or above. Destiny and other games are 5v5s and were more or less halo multiplayer. World of difference. Also destiny had 6 man raids, but they were drastically different to a 25 man.
>Battlegrounds is 20v20 or above
Warsong Gulch? Arathi Basin? Eye of the Storm? Twin Peaks?
Most battlegrounds are 10v10.
The homosexual troony dragons turned me off more than Shadowlands.
I don't even play retail, just going off what copeBlack folk said.
>employ several "game masters". one per zone is ideal but fewer would work too. make sure they work together and know about each other's actions
>Eventually makes the mistake of hiring a representative of the community like a moderator/superstar poster from somethingawful, resetera, or another cancerous forum when the original GMs leave for better gigs and eventually starts dictating the game in ways that makes it unfun for everyone including nepotism, GMs shitting up the game with personal politics on how the game should be ran, etc. and then removed after a major controversial event.
this reminds me of randomnizers in speedrunning which is the most boring thing i could ever imagine happening to mmorpgs
What are they?
Speedrun randomizers? It's just a speedrun of a game where someone made a mod of the game that shuffles the contents of every treasure pickup so you can get a plot important item from what was supposed to be an ammo pickup and vice versa.
Basically it's a test of a person's knowledge in where to find every single treasure in a game as fast as possible and knowing when they can stop looking and just head to the final boss
Frick the haters replying to this.
This sounds like a fresh idea that should be explored.
That's a good idea worth digging more into, especially since it has a very human aspect to it instead of random, so it could be really fun and unique every time the world changes.
But as you can see from the replies the average moron is just here to win so when things are swapped around and they have to relearn things, they quit like losers.
MUDs have been doing that for literally decades. MUDs can only get away with it because it's 99% text.
MMOs can't get away with this kind of stuff because there's no pipeline imaginable that would facilitate the amount of work hours that would be required to pull that kind of stuff off while also turning a profit. You're talking about completely changing assets and entire regions on a whim, doing insane balance changes on a whim, and having no actual testing before hand to make sure what you're doing isn't going to utterly break the game.
It's a colossally stupid idea that only an "idea man" could come up with who would then tell a bunch of programmers "MAKE IT HAPPEN!"
And a functional idea that IRL realizes each moment of its existence.
Your programmers are simply inept, but then again, all your programmers are.
They prioritized artistic expression and lacking ergonomics in lieu of efficiency, mathematical precision, consistently high processing speeds and humanely optimal data input, so almost all human programmers are stuck measuring brackets and work with big data with a ~100 button keyboard one letter at a time.
LOL
What kind of delusional slop is this?
All existing publicly available computational systems are not ergonomically optimal towards usage by humans on any level beyond surface UI.
Immense efficiency boons can be reached with correct hardware and software means, but whether it is not allowed through corp conspiracies or everyone is so incompetent that they chose to consider ~1960-80 PC framework as the end all be all of ergonomics remains to be seen.
Computers work in two ways, either they are faster than their operator, or slower then them. In the former case, one simply needs a capacity to rapidly create, input and operate data into machine on machine code level and you're set, all achievable with proper means, parseable by human brain without any augmentation. You're just incompetent.
Is this some kind of Ascended Idea Guy bullshit? What does any of your inane bullshit accomplish? Yeah bro tech and humanity just aren't where they should be, it's not that my idea is just too ambitious and resource intensive, nuh-uh no sir!
Sorry, if discourse is so antithetical to you, next time if there's a desire (certainly no need) to talk to you, I shall tell you exactly what you want to hear and nothing else.
>buncha peusdo-intellectual nonsense that amounts out to "computers are faster than human brains"
You seem to not actually understand what the OP was suggesting.
He's saying every single zone in the entire MMO gets it's own GM that gets to basically do whatever they want with it, whether that be completely destroy the region or build it up.
You can't just do that.
There are assets that need to be made to facilitate those changes. There is code to be written to facilitate those changes. There are checks and balanced that need to be solved to not crash the entire zone or server or game.
What OP is suggesting is akin to remaking entire MMO zones on a whim whenever the GM wanted. Something that takes months to do with dozens of people working on.
Can it be done? Yes. Can it be done and turn a profit? Absolutely not, not with our current technology.
It just wouldn't work. Things still have to be well designed.
MMO challenges and updates are fun because it's a sudden "puzzle" that the community at large has to "solve" so to speak.
It's deliberately designed and if you're there day 1 you get to see everyone throwing shit at the wall, discussing ideas, and gradually you'll probably notice a "meta" strat evolve or even come up with it yourself as a group, then it spreads as you play with others. That's the dynamic joy that's been lost as of late because everyone knows what to do and how to do it the moment anything actually gets added into the game. The joy of exploration and experimentation on a difficult challenge is lost and that won't be regained by just changing things, there has to be good planning behind it.
Other than skill balance changes, you're just describing private RP servers for survival games like ARK where you have special events and quests and shit run by moderators in game.
Don't put shit in the client you don't want players to see. It's literally that easy.
Play games that are less than 19 years old, dumbass. People act like datamining is some major problem yet they’re always talking about the exact same massive popular two-decade old game they‘re complaining about ten years after release. WoW didnt have datamining problems for its love patches, people had to figure that shit out and after playing the entire game they would later measure stuff and put it in a wiki, until they started just putting the wikis in the game as the adventure guide. Yet somehow you all act like everything’s mined completely from the beginning. The game is two decades old, get a grip
Randomized stats/loots/bosses/abilities/"trash mobs"/etc.
Mythic addition solved a little bit of the monotonousness but it then became a competition rather than enjoyment. Path of Exile like system would be better where system can scale to various content level. The game already does personal loot system, so whats the harm in allowing solo dungeons/raids?
MMOs just need a challenge aside from high end max level raids and shit
before it was
>I put a big huge mob here, can't kill it? not my problem
>Yes, this boss instakills you, no, I'm not going to tell you why, figure it out yourself
now it's
>I must carefully design the leveling experience so people can do it fast, optimally and with the least resistance ever so they can get to my proposed max level themepark and grind these daily quests
The only way to stop data mining is to make the data inaccessible.
Basically impossible unless it's something that isn't UX dependent like a MUD down like a MUD. Maybe even a runescape-like. UX requires assets and assets are how they make educated guesses about content.
You can always reverse engineer, and the army of autists will be glad to test everything until the last number is catalogized because god forbid you do 0.3% less damage than you should
An army of autists reverse engineering through data crunching is not even remotely the same as sifting through assets to figure out unreleased content.
The effect is the same, you're only delaying it. By days at most
Well if you're talking about pure data that is client available it's literally impossible. You can't give a client data without the client having access to the data.
Streaming the client might work.
Story shit is irrelevant, nobody but lore spergs give a frick and itll all be posted on youtube regardless.
a variant on this would be basically making new shit be dynamic access: you don't even have the files for <x thing/area/whatever> until you enter it/encounter it/something it, at which point it downloads the relevant files and only those. could even apply it to drops of shit where it might be simply listed as 'weapon ID######' with no name or associated data until it drops for you (or you see someone else wielding it). it wont stop it, but it'll basically slow down the process a whole bunch.
WoW does that since forever for most things that aren't too big in size, i.e. not textures.
Some cutscenes are also encrypted and you get the decryption key only when doing the proper quest.
They used to do it for items too until somebody figured out a trick to ask the server what items a chest contains. Instead of patching the hole, they just allowed everyone to ask the server for item data whenever.
Make the game exclusive to services like Stadia.
It will still be "datamined", but the players will have to work for it.
>Encrypt the files
Many dataminer websites, such as Wowhead, don't know how to decrypt the files. This is a good measure right off the bat.
>Treat datamining being posted online as a crime against the company
Self explanatory.
>Don't even show encrypted content.
Double-edged sword, since internal testers for MMOs are notoriously bad (see World of Warcraft and the innumerable bugs that always happen every patch as an example), but if it's not ready for the public, the public does not need to see it.
Bring the hammer down on datamining. I personally don't mind knowing the set pieces ahead of the story they're used in, but I fully understand the problems that datamining brings when it comes to a story or environment. For example, you see a model based on a character you like, and another model that looks eerily similar but with blatant corruption attached. One instance of this is, using World of Warcraft again, Ysera from the Legion expansion. Before we got to experience the story, we saw this green dragon have a corrupted form. Nobody knew what the frick it was for, but people went off on random tangents with speculations. Nobody knew she'd get ambushed by a crazy bastard, have a gem jabbed in her heart that corrupts her, and that she'd be killed by her best friend before randomly transforming into a constellation in the night sky while her allies with thick prostitute makeup watch in mourning.
Datamining spoils the fun to a degree. For some, that degree is too high, and that's perfectly reasonable.
Even if its not posted from ptr itll get posted the day it comes out anyway because good players play 20h a day which is same diff.
you cant
people are not 'playing' MMOs anymore, they're 'beating' them
MMOs have become glorified matchmaking lobbies. Dungeon and raid finders murdered any sense of community by teleporting you and several strangers from different servers into instanced content and then no one sees each other again.
Also recently MMOs have this strange focus on single player quests and stories. I don’t get it.
Stadia or something similar would have unironically solved this.
Could put tons and tons of bullshit in the data so that dataminers don't know what data is properly implemented?
>streaming only, all you get is video you send inputs to
>use DMCA against dataminers/datamining sites, sue the belligerent ones that don't get their hands out of your data
Really the only two ways you're doing this is giving them no data to pry open, or make them too afraid/make it too much of a hassle to do any mining.
Still doesn't fix the game being solved by rapid experimentation.
Send in hitmen to murder a few dataminers who frick around,
data-mining isn't the problem, *you* are the problem for adopting the ethos of autistic hyper-competition, where you feel the need to be the first to do something, to compete against other players on parses, push high keys or over-complicate a mythic raiding roster with an absolute "meta-only" comp to "do thing faster". meta is a damning term when developers strive for parity in all specs, to where you could complete a mythic raid without a single one of what other people consider "S-tier" classes.
even if you don't do these things, you observe them to be the de facto way to play nowadays because guilds are centered around it and the culture has been poisoned by competition, where everything needs to be ranked or completed and consumed as quickly as possible. where we stream and glorify world first races, like locusts sucking on the marrow of fresh content until it's completely drained.
data-mining existed even in bygone eras with thottbot for WoW and allakazam for EQ, where whole quests were laid out from game data and commented on which simplified the process and dispelled any mystery or discovery a player could have experienced. the only difference between now and then is that the systems in play have been dumbed down and simplified such that there's no need for obscure or hidden measures, there's a big, glowing quest marker leading to your next destination, your most optimal spec is lifted from a site regurgitating aggregated data and you use that because it works and not because you appreciate the ability to develop your character how you want, because what you want is to ride what is best and most efficient, like an insect.
the only way to solve this made-up crisis is to make MMOs niche again and to have them be more focused on player interaction rather than what simplistic game systems we have today.
in short, to solve the problem just have a nice day. you're about as braindead as the people that used to clamor for "WoW 2".
>you are the problem
hello corporate shill
no idea what that has to do with corpos.
this genre is dumbed down for the lowest common denominator and if that is your issue, it's a matter of perspective, but the games have historically been picked apart such that whole relic weapons, obscure quests and some of the rarest drops in the game were public knowledge before long. the only difference between now and then is in magnitudes of population count, such that things are discovered quicker and whatever "magic" you believe existed was sucked dry.
well the OP is conflating the two (data-mining and min-maxing). you can still do those things today, it's the game itself that is bereft of ways to give the player agency or a sense of discovery. there's no reason to interact with the people around you or ask general chat how to do something when you could just look up Wowhead. it's a sad state.
Datamining in EQ existed because there was no other way of even playing the game. It wasn't so much datamining as "how the frick do I do X". It wasn't used to exploit the game with meta-knowledge, it was literally part of exploration.
>MMOs niche
Isn't that an oxymoron?
People still have the idea of 13 million wow players being the peak of the games industry.
Well, it was an impressive numbers.
No other game written that on its own cd box, except maybe CnC 1 mentioning the sheer mass of players somewhere, I think?
I love how people still think that figure is valid. Blizzard cheated with their numbers back then too, not just when they counted every single preorder as a sale on release to give themselves the title of fastest selling game.
They never had 13m concurrent, I'd be surprised if they had even half of that.
Even half is too much. Remember that Halo pic? And Halo is one of the most popular games there was.
abolish PTRs, learn to encrypt your shit and stop leaking your shit on propose to try to generate hype
Outside of making it illegal there's not much you can do. Even then people are still going to do it.
Put a virus in the data.
I wonder if Blizzard will ever recognize that making leveling an expedient chore was the worst decision they ever made. In older WoW, leveling was the journey, it didn't matter if you were only level 37 or something, you had your own stories, from that group you joined to slaughter bloodscalps, to the healer who spot-healed you when you facepulled basilisks and they were chain petrifying you, or the mage who gave you intellect buff after you learned to use that snazzy dungeon blue you won. What player retention can be gleaned from '1-59 are worthless, just speedrun through it'?
>when you facepulled basilisks and they were chain petrifying you
Are people really so stupid they can't figure out that you won't get stunned if you don't look at them? Sheeeeesh
Not going to help when there are multiple and you got caught once already.
>you got caught once already
Yeah that's the issue now isn't it? Gotta be pretty dumb to get caught in the first place
Not every basilisk has a cast timer, Anon.
Never met one of those castless basilisks, guess I got lucky. Do they hang out in desolace or something?
Desolace and ZF, it's an instant petrify but you get compensated with higher armor.
Data mining means going through game files looking for things. Usually meaning people looking through files of new patch to find stuff. What is the problem there? People looking up cutscene few hours early from files means jack shit
datamining can only be solved once streaming technology is good enough to the point where the entire game can be server side so the user doesn't download anything except an interface login program
>alliance Black folk trying to badmouth barrens
WESTFALL IS SHIT
SHIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIITTTTTTTTT
Loch Modan. Alliance wins.
literally all h*rde zones sre shit and your faction is for literal Black folk and contrarians.
I have to say watching all the hardcore orc morons die to chickens and giraffes in Barrens is slightly satisfying.
You can still conceal stuff.
The secrets WoW introduced were very cool, genuine secrets and figuring them out as a community was awesome.
Make it useless, and make internal game mechanics that not so much punish but rather outright disregard the most tasteless, shallow munchkin optimizers.
Normal optimizers are acceptable.
>boss has shield that negates damage if it's over a certain threshold
>autistic optimizers do shit damage and have most of their attacks nullified while people playing the game normally do fine
>guy that got a lucky weapon drop and does 80% more damage than expected gets shafted
>munchkins start optimising attacks per second or dot stacking
You will never be a game designer
>get one upgrade
>do double damage
Motherfricker that is BAD DESIGN.
So is cucking people out of their crits and buffs, moron
They're just going to figure that out and then make a meter addon to tell them exactly how much damage to do to be within 1dps of the cap. There is no mechanic that can deal with a co-ordinated group.
>addon
I wonder how much the dev team regrets allowing these things. Making content around addons must be hellish
It's actually one of the reasons wow is still alive.
Not very, it's the same as bethesda where it allowed them to make some absolute dogshit and plam it off going "players will sort it out"
Of-course there can be. Either it's an intelligent mechanic, a game master that acts like actual ttrpg ones, or a counter-group, and a mechanic that only tolerates actual skill than mere numbers.
Borderlands is one of the "numbers go up" games, yet even there one can be easily killed.
>gm
Not feasable and they're going to figure the shit or the content is just bricked because the gm wont let them actually do it.
>skill based
You're already dealing with skilled players, execution is a given
>counter group
This is just a pvp match now or built in greifers. PvPvE is aids and just leads to focusing one or the other.
Just pondering, eh.
>Not feasable and they're going to figure the shit or the content is just bricked because the gm wont let them actually do it.
Worse, I'd say. Corruption and dramas will kick in. It kicks in games with cash shops until some literal millionaire buys out a way to the top.
>skill
Should've clarified properly, dynamic skill test on the spot with more tactile mechanics that exploit the player more. Shooters like Quake are really physical in how strenuous they are on players. Put more pressure in some way basically.
>griefers
Can be worked around but you're on point. What about substituting the E with P in PvE? Making E boost classes? Sorta like attacker vs defender skill sets?
>quake is strenuous
It's not even close to that.
I dunno, pro Quake play is rather rapid from what I recall, all that mad hopping and railgunning. At least, it works as an example of applied tactile skill.
Tribes/Tribes Ascend and TFC with concs works as that too.
What you want is a first person shooter, not an RPG.
It was just an example, I'm not sure how to word it. RPGs need not be limited to how their combat proceeds.
Precisely, though that runs into issues.
Anyhow, one could go beyond and make a dungeon master class, too!
Imagine, you play a "not too cool, but not low level" entity that mediates the way dungeons proceed, a story tied in hired functionalizer who installs traps, mercenary mage, etc. Your task is to throw spanners into someone else's raid when they get uppity, so just when they walk in with their fancy turbo combo you pull a trick that simply annuls it.
It's [Arcane] magic, I don't give a frick.
essentially playing as a monster class
would be cool to have unlocks from doing specific quests and then be able to play as a centaur for example and frick around
Make every boss into a Viscidus boss where you have to hit it with a certain element a million times before you can kill it. The mechanics happen around you while you attack the boss and if people die then you won't have enough attacks to break the shield
Oh wait no that sounds awful frick that
its a good idea, it would take alot of resources to pull off something like that though
I feel like all games, including single player games, have a problem with people chasing the meta or looking up guides. As an example, the people in WoW who just copy their builds from the internet or look up a leveling route. Datamining is just a part of that, I think.
you can try to obfuscate as much of the data as possible or keep certain things server side but players will figure it out eventually.
the only other option would be to change it frequently so its always new but that could be alot of effort for the purpose of...? what exactly?
One of the only skillsets that people learn from playing videogames is optimization. slapping them on the wrist for doing just that is stupid even if the end result of their optimization is a less interactive playerbase.
Really, the flaw is in the game itself.
It doesn't allow non-linear battle methods, lacks in chaos, and is limited sorely to either target based point and 1 click, or target based skill click.
Absent of other game mechanics, only way is to make a complex, deep math infrastructure that fundamentally disallows select railroads while still allowing singular conclusions.
Complex magical economics of damage that either put some pressure and shift initiative on player's skill, or possess components that are entirely up to player's usage and are not reducible to linear number superiority.
Quest helper ruined the game
Which MMOs are the least affected by this?
The deader, the better
Is this really an issue at all? What's an issue here, that the game is solved?
People like OP can't stop minmaxing so they complain that other people datamine the game so they can write guides on how to minmax.
WoW is for homosexuals
Server only sends the client the data when it's required with server side verification.. impossible to datamine then.
…. you want ever asset stored serverside?
You'll could also just have all the assets stored encrypted locally with a unique key that thee server serves when needed too. But server asset streaming is already done in online world's now.
…. you want assets decrypted in real time as they’re being loaded?
Bro you’re cutting off your nose to spite your face
You don't need/want high fidelity graphics in a MMO. Asset sizes aren't going to be massive, we literally already have games right now that are playable with a couple mb of core interface files that stream the assets from servers as they're needed.
This is how you fix MMOs
>add more solo content
>make said solo content drop bis
>said solo content must also be insanely difficult to a point where 99.999% of players cant do it
There I fixed MMOs
WoW in my eyes would be so much more epic with more dynamic content like capturable cities outside of bgs. Like Imagine seeing a raid of 40 people of the opposite raiding a huge city you were using as a travel point and quest hub as a lv 5 paladin. After they've captured it you'd need to find a new city to call home.
that sounds cool until you see it in action, then you realize the zone your level 20 character just spent 45 minutes walking to is no longer a quest hub and you need to spend 30 minutes on Windriders and boats just to get back to your capital so you can start another 45 minute trek to the only other level appropriate zone (that will probably get conquered by the same 40 man group that cucked you out of your last zone since they can get there way faster than you).
It's better if you do it like FFXI where zones get "conquered" but they don't become completely unusable for low level characters unrelated to the war, they just lose some vendors and maybe get a bit more dangerous to quest at.
>Mancow
I still remember this fricker from back in the day. Also went by Joana. Every fresh server that got released he'd be the first to 60. Dude must've been doing 3 day long coke benders.
>add gear loss on death and PvP zones
>remove all character-bound progression and power
>more gathering and crafting, less RNG loot tables
>have horizontal progression instead of numbers going up insanely high for no reason
>remove the partyfinder and give solo players more content
>reward players who complete group content as a guild
There I fixed every MMO.
>gear loss on death
how many dead pvp games do you need before you realize that losing gear on pvp death is shit?
it can work if gear isn't powerful. a more skilled player should always beat someone with better gear but between equal skilled players the better geared player should win most of the time. the problem with this is that geargays are autistic and have no skill so they believe gear should be the only thing that matters
If there's no difference why would a player try to get the gear? Why wouldn't he just play a proper skill-based pvp game with no gear instead? The questions are rhetorical, you don't have to answer, and you should never work on game design.
We are in a WoW thread. The smallest level difference makes the stronger player immortal in that game. Meanwhile in a PvP game the player wearing the best everything risks 50 times what the average player brings, just to be maybe 20% stronger.
Exactly. That's why no one would do that.
>risks
What for? Why? Reason? Purpose? Meaning? Significance? Why the everloving frick would someone risks something he put his time into to beat some random shitter on the other side of the planet in some basket weaving pvp mini-game? Wowgays don't even want to pvp as it is right now, with ZERO risk, they would still opt-out of pvp because even their worthless basement dwelling time is not worth it. Holy shit you Lineage gays are the most dumbest creatures ever.
>but what if I lose...
You can also win and it will be a million times more memorable than doing no risk no reward PvE.
The average player will run around in a budget set that's easy to replace. Equipment itself is treated like a consumable. Think of games like Rust.
My most memorable wins were from vanilla WoW world pvp, they had 0 risk, but it was fun because the game was fun because internets were fun back then, and no amount of full drop could bring that fun back. I can't remember shit after that. Zero x million is still zero.
i didn't say there wasn't any difference you subhuman fricking moron shit eating mmo playing homosexual frick. have a nice day. i said disabled garbage like you shouldn't be able to win just because of your gear. you're seething with tard rage at the thought of gear not being the primary factor you can't even read properly
Ascension wow has gear loss on death in high risk pvp zones
They are dominated by people playing in groups murdering anyone coming close to steal their gear and to monopolize all the high risk materials. I'm sure some people find murderballs fun but in the end only a very small percentage of people even get to interact with the system because they're pushed out before they can even get in properly so people don't even bother any more.
You could do some changes to the game so you don't run into unfair situations like this. A reputation system, a debuff for zergs and safezones. Nobody likes non-consensual PvP.
WoW is a PvE MMO and not a PvP MMO. Getting ganked by high-level players is probably the only PvP experience they get.
People are still going to push those rules to the limit to monopolize and stay ahead of the pack making it impossible to enter into the pvp system as a new player. The rich only get richer while the poor get kicked out unceremoniously. Pvp in general is just a bad idea in mmos but people still cling the hope that they'll have fun with it one day.
Don't have public testing realms and hire actually testers. Don't release data for upcoming patches even if that means patches will be larger and take longer to download and go after data miners in the court room, other companies have done that successfully.
Sue.
Permaban.
Have people assassinated.
It's that easy.
>b-but the goodwill of the community
what community? The game's unplayable now
>enter Ganker mmo thread
>DUDE HOW ABOUT A FULL LOOT PV-
>leave Ganker mmo thread
Don't put your data in the game files until it's ready to launch.
This isn't 2004 anymore, average download speed of poorgays is about 10 MB/s and people who got ethernet should have more, and people with the GOOD shit can go between 100 and 300 MB/s.
I dont think it can be stopped, it can be delayed by not having a PTR though but that brings its own set of problems.
I think we broke the AI, bros
Whom?
Do console games have this problem?
Yeah bro people play Elden Ring and such following a complete filled out interactable map. Hell barely anyone tries to find collectibles and things like feathers from AC without an explicit map
Its only a problem because devs like the WoW ones allow it. XIV doesn't have a PTR server. And they only let you download the patch a few hours before it goes live. Sure, people do datamine during those few hours but its usually limited and hidden because they ban anyone who discusses or shares it in the game or forums.
>How do we solve datamining in MMORPGs?
By randomizing everything.
>Overworld
>Dungeon entrances in said world
>The dungeons itself
Every week, the layout, the biomes, they get randomized.
Oh god no, are you insane? How are you supposed to get anything done? ‘Alright I need a new sword the level of the rest of my gear and more of those health elixirs, I’ll just go… uh… well I’ll just walk somewhere and get whatever’
Full-loot PvP games will give you highs and lows that a safe PvE game can't deliver. Isn't that what you want?
WoW players are bored with their game because nothing feels special anymore. PvE gets boring. Datamining isn't the problem. You are just scared of interacting with other players.
Yeah because getting your ass kicked again and again would feel so special. Losing your gear again and again would be so special. Winning to one homosexual to get a carrot after losing to other homosexual and losing your whole fricking gear would be so special.
>git gud lmao
And that's why no one ever takes you seriously. Like, ever, not in a slightest. You come to a room full of people who don't want to get good and tell them to get good. They don't want to. They want to turn off their brain and see the numbers go big. People who wanted to get good moved to other genres fricking aeons ago. Only you lineagetards are so stuck in the past you still believe mmohomosexuals want to get good.
If full loot pvp MMO's are that good why are they all they dead on launch?
You can say the same about PvE themeparks.
PvE ones die after launch though.
The whole game has to be built ground up to facilitate full loot pvp and have level brackets, multi and single combat areas to even be feasible, otherwise it's just ganksquads made up of sweatiest and most moronic players will dominate the whole server
wow players and mmo players in general are by far the most bottom of the barrel subhuman garbage to exist. no, they don't want a challenge. look at their games, they load them with addons so they can do as little thinking as possible. modern mmo players are nothing more than glorified simon says players and taking simon says seriously is fricking cringe
They like a chill game with minimal risk of failure. The horror!
a bunch of severely mentally ill pve care bears are the least chill people around. what they like doing is invading every single mmo that releases, demand it be shaped in wow's image, get what they want then leave the game they destroyed because they are degenerate addicts
MMOs are an unsalvageable genre because morons can't get over FOMO solipsism which means it's necessarily not a living, active world which means the only content is static or inconsequential which means it has to be designed which will make it an overly instanced themepark.
Basically if you're the kind of baby who cries over logging a minecraft server to see your house nuked and your first thought is to quit then you're exactly why mmos will never be good.
Can we finally admit TBC is better than wrath now? It had way higher retention than Wrath classic. The proof is in the numbers. TBC had issues but it's still way better than wrath. I'd come back for TBC classic unironically
>hurfdurrr muh wikis and instant information killed mmoz
Shit like that literally always existed you were just a child back then who was too moronic to search for them and probably believed SA bigfoot shit too while getting laughed about on gtanet
game streaming but unironically
>mancow
>troll
What a waste of a name