How do you make an armor system that properly reflects how daggers are more effective against heavy armor than swords are?
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How do you make an armor system that properly reflects how daggers are more effective against heavy armor than swords are?
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>make an incorrect statement
Is this all it takes to troll these days?
>*stabs you right in the armpit*
Not so factually correct now, are you?
Could also just armpit stab with a sword anon…
literally how. like, anatomically, how would you do it
fpwp
Rondel daggers were essentially sharp spikes with a handle. Upper body strength plus tiny point of contact = pierced armor.
Make it so only daggers and small maces do double damage and other weapons do 1/2 damage while grappling? Before the fight is taken to the ground it's dumb to try to get that close, but afterward the dagger fricks shit up.
>Upper body strength plus tiny point of contact = pierced armor.
Get the dicks out of your mouth, and use your mongoloid brain for five fricking seconds: rondel daggers do not "pierce armour", but are jammed in the gaps, joints and slots.
Jesus fricking Christ, have a nice day.
I believe that recent tests by Tod's workshop on YouTube indicate that daggers could in fact pierce the plate armor of the time.
>rondel daggers do not "pierce armour",
They do a fairly good job of piercing mail and splitting its rings which are found covering those gaps, joints and slots you're talking about.
Please explain yourself anon
Critical ignore armor. Dagger has a higher chance of critting than sword.
OP if you'd read a book for more than five minutes you'd realize the dagger's effectiveness against armor is a function of grappling and close combat. For disparate purposes, weapons have disparate designs.
To answer your question, you would do so by giving close combat weapons a bonus in ground-fighting and grappling and then reflect the ability to pierce or bypass armor with a damage bonus or armor ignoring effect.
This is also not a bad option in a system with more abstraction; though I feel being in control of a grapple or pin could be reflected with a higher critical range for a compromise between simplicity and crunch.
>the dagger's effectiveness against armor is a function of grappling and close combat
That doesn't mean it's not effective.
Wouldn't work in D&D which is to say D&D is kinda stupid.
No need, GURPS already exists
Daggers don't get a bonus so much as they are much more easily used in very close combat (such as when grappling) when it's more difficult to parry
You could, like give some kind of advantage against attacking prone or grappled opponents and maybe have a class that specializes in using daggers and gets special extra damage against opponents they have that kind of advantage against - and maybe even have some kind of subclass that even gets additional advantages when grappling? If only such a system existed!
careful you mentioned classes, now these fricking hipsters are gonna claw their eyes out while screaming at you
OH shit!
>advantage
>class
>specialization
>SPECIAL EXTRA DAMAGE!
>subclass
>MORE ADVANTAGE!!
You should try actually playing games. And then you should actually play games that are fun.
While both a sword and dagger can be used in a grapple, the sword is only really useful as fancy crowbar against a man in armor. As it's still possible to strike with the dagger, it can still be used to make thrusting attacks, and if you have a hold on the opponent, can use the grappling HLT mods instead of the striking ones, massively negating the penalties involved in slipping it into armor chinks et al.
Increased damage reduction against enemies that are grappled or prone.
D&Ds Dex-bonus-as-armour system can probably do that adequately.
Would BJJ work against people in armor?
>How do you make an armor system that properly reflects how daggers are more effective against heavy armor than swords are?
Penetration and degrees of success.
Potential example:
> "Weapons with the dirk quality multiply their penetration by the degrees of success on the attack roll when used against opponents who are stunned or restrained."
This keeps the damage from going out of control, as penetration only applies to armor generally, while ensuring that you defeat the armor if you hit them good enough to represent actually stabbing someone in a weak point. The specific conditions where this applies might need changing.
Since it's a weapon quality you can apply it to relevant items as needed.
Probably? It's not like knights were immune to tripping and grappling and such. Depending on the armor, it might be harder to do any joint lock shit or whatever since you could end up working against the armor as well as the guy trying not to let his arm bend backwards.
>Penetration and degrees of success.
I forgot to say this idea assumes you're doing armor primarily as damage reduction
Depends on the armour.
Plate? Nah, not well. It'd help with taking him to the ground but too many of the locks and especially chokes would be ineffective.
Why wouldn't an armbar work?
Don't most joints in a typical suit of plate have (marginally) less RoM than the joint they're protecting? You'd be able to hold the arm in extension but to actually cause pain or injury you need to hyperextend the joint and that would mean overcoming the strength of the plates.
you don't, because that's not fun, or balanced, and portraying the kind of techniques required with mechanics is tedious.
Instead it's far easier to portray this with narrative. Start an armored duel off with sword clashing, feints, aimed attacks, parries and ripostes. Then someone grapples, disarms, pulls a dagger and shanks.
Portraying very specific mechanics in fine detail often isn't as interesting as flavor text and collaborative narration between you and the players. It's much better to aim for a vibe and a general feeling with the mechanics. But where mechanics slow things down and get in the way, they should be simplified so as to not get in the way of the roleplay.
Japanese Jiu Jitsu was used by people in armor, and against people in armor. Brazilian Jiu Jitsu though, that was beaten out by Catch Wrestling. And frick the Gracies.
But in seriousness, grappling was a fundamental part of training for all armored warrior castes, and wrestling with daggers was something they all did to deal with other armored fighters. Along with specialized weapons like axes, maces, or pole weapons, which simply allowed you to defeat armor with fencing instead of grappling.
Most sane Sakuraba fan.
Hârnmaster simulates all weapon Vs armour benefits and drawbacks, including for instance the advantage of confined spaces and how tired the combatant is.
That's it, the thread.
>But waaaa waaa it's too complicated!
Then forget about daggers being good against heavy armour
Another Harnmaster Chad
>"Stab me like one of your French prostitutes."
If you want realism then what you are aiming for in a system is ABSTRACTION. The more rules and simulation the less realistic a system becomes.
I run armour as DR and every weapon has a range on the D20 that activates its special use. Hammers break shields, axes chop limbs, knifes bypas armour.
Ex: On a nat 18,19,20 the weapon ability activates. You can change the range depending on weapon quality.
Slashing, piercing, crushing damage types.
Finesse and Might weapon dileniation.
Give every armour type an S/P/C AV, plate would be good against Slashing, but falter to piercing and crushing. Leather would excel against piercing. Mail would be great against slashing, etc.
Finesse weapons find weak points on crits, ignoring armour. Might weapons deal double damage on a crit but still contend with armour.
HEMA is for Black folk
Play Song of Swords.
No way, I enjoy bodily hygiene too much for that.
>Ignores armor on grabbed opponents
seems pretty easy.
Daggers ignore armor and DR if you make a called shot while in a successful grapple. Would probably work well in a system like pic related.
By ignoring armor protection when finishing a defenseless full canned enemy because you are literally bypassing their armor.
Represent the fact that armor covers a limited part of the body. An attack could fail to hit entirely, hit, but strike armor, or hit bare flesh.
While grappling, make it easier to hit bare flesh.
Make smaller weapons much easier to use while grappling.
Armor has damage reduction.
Crits ignore damage reduction.
Daggers have a higher chance to crit.
Attacking a prone/grappled enemy has a higher chance of a crit.
Daggers can be used against prone enemies, while other weapons like swords can't (not without penalties, at least).
most weapons target a creature's Defense stat, which is either their Agility score, their Agility score+a little bit from light armor, or a flat value based on their armor. heavier armor requires more strength to wear.
daggers, rapiers, firearms, and other similar weapons target agility instead of defense to hit.
Savage Worlds uses Parry and Toughness instead of Armor Class.
Toughness is derived from adding the character's innate toughness (from vigor) with armor he is wearing. (and it can differ for different body parts. When you roll damage, you are trying to roll higher than the target's toughness, and if you beat it, you deliver 1 wound.
Weapons can have armor penetration, or bonuses to the roll to overcome parry. For a system that's supposed to be simpler, it handles combat a lot more elegantly than DnD.
>Leg lock.
>Americana.
>Open hand can't reach.
Quality shit right there.
anyone got that video of a japanese type of SCA event where almost every samurai fight is won by grappling with a tanto?
Imagine if you could just have a "ignores X armour" modifier on a weapon.
Imagine if you were actually playing games and this was obvious to you.
Imagine you weren't a flaming homosexual shitting up a hobby board.
Armored opponents are still vulnerable to grappling.
Smaller weapons like daggers can be used while grappling.
This is now a thread where OP tells us all about his actual real games that he runs and plays in.
>more effective
lol no but whatever.
Use exploding damage for daggers, its easy. Problem solved.
GURPS
>When attacking a grappled opponent with a weapon, give the option to ignore armor.
>Give a penalty to grappling and attacking grappled opponents with long weapons.
>Daggers count as short weapons and can be used in grapples with no penalty.
It's not the daggers alone that are effective, it's that thier effective with a particular mode of fighting.
You can still do all your half-swording stuff but it's an extra step to make the weapon usable in this context and the length gives it less manuverability, this a penalty. Against a heavily protected opponent it could be worth it so long as the attack is skilled enough.
Wouldn't that more fall into grappling rules?
Just allow a coup-de-grace against any immobilized or unconscious armored opponent. Frick hit points.
Make a special "coup de grace" move that you need a dagger or a misericord to perform. Dagger is only better against armor if the opponent cannot fight back and most combat systems reflect the opponent actively trying to fight you.
A lucky stab into an eye slit is already covered by criticals.
Play gurps, called shot to the armpit or any other unprotected area.
>Inb4 d&d
Oh, then sunder attack to unprotected body parts (negates the AC)
>Inb4 5e
Oh, then roll at disadvantage or some bullshit, 90% of the rulesystem already is so no worries.
In this thread a bunch of morons who have never even considered going to a HEMA class speculate about pushing daggers through metal plate.