How does /vp/ feel about Gen 3 OU
I guess this could be a pre Gen-6 comp thread in general but I have been playing Gen 3 recently
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How does?
How does /vp/ feel about Gen 3 OU
I guess this could be a pre Gen-6 comp thread in general but I have been playing Gen 3 recently
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i hate blissy
the melee of smogon
not in the good way, but in the "everyone who still plays this competitively is either an autist, a troony, a child predator, or some combination of the three" way
Dogshit post homosexual
But enough about Ultimate
Wack.
Kino
there isn't a single point in pokemon's history where comp wasn't complete shit. people telling you about how this generation or that generation had the best competitive scene are doing it to win some imaginary dick-measuring contest.
true
I love gen 3 tho
please post more hoenn memes i need it
YES
I feel like it could've been drastically improved if Sandstorm only lasted for 5 turns and there was the physical/special split. Tyranitar and Suicune wouldn't be so obnoxious to deal with then.
if your gonna nerf sandstorm you might as well nerf sun and rain too, because tyranitars only purpose was to interfere with sun and rain teams.
>because tyranitars only purpose was to interfere with sun and rain teams
Nah, Sandstorm is good to prevent stuff like Blissey, Snorlax and Suicune from chip healing with leftovers.
The movepools are still horrendous so the split wouldn't change much
>physical/special split
You lost me there
zoomer post
+ sandstorm nerfs suicune
Sandstorm (and spikers) are the only reason we stopped seeing moron snorlax curse spam, developers really wanted the motherfricker to be meta again by giving Immunity.
Also Sandstorm keeps suicine in check, guaranees getting KOd by some special walls.
Only reason the meta is not special attack spam.
>Literally no ferrothorn, regenerator, toxic orb abuser
Thats why gen 4 and above is full of stallgays. Gen 3 has common sweepers like Aerodactyl, Rock Slide spam, Heracross, Medicham, etc, it is just less easy to pull than "lmao Keldeo + rain + pump" brainrot
Yeah toxic orb stall in gen 4
Breloom stall
>Only reason the meta is not special attack spam.
Have you played any formats that dont have blissey or chansey?
yeah
your point?
Which ones are they
Gen 3 UU, Gen 3 NU, BDSP NU, Gen 1 UU, Gen 1 NU, Gen 2 NU, Gen 2 PU, Gen 3 LC, Gen 4 LC
>Sandstorm (and spikers) are the only reason we stopped seeing moron snorlax curse spam
That is not true.
Curse Snorlax has to choose between Body Slam / Return, Shadow Ball, and Earthquake / Brick Break. If you drop Shadow Ball, now you need a Pursuit user, and most of them aren't easy to use, as well as Tyranitar kicking up, yes, detrimental Sandstorm.
More importantly, the standard is/was dropping Earthquake (/ Brick Break)---now, you're walled by, threatened by, and invite in Tyranitar and Metagross, who are hard to get rid of reliably, particularly just switching into them. Not even mentioning Skarmory, who walls Snorlax and sets up on it for free---practically necessitating either Magneton or a spinner.
The "problem" with Snorlax, particularly CurseLax, is that to access its full power, you really have to commit to sophisticated architecture of the team around it, with respect to the relevant meta threats. Getting worn down by Spikes and Sandstorm is irrelevant when it can just Rest those off. The real issue is the very common mons that blank it, for which it needs well thought-out support.
Gen 3 OU is the only OU without anything outrageously broken in it, which is pretty nice.
i've been trying to get into it recently
honestly hidden power is the biggest annoyance for me so far. doing things that seem reasonable like switching in a swampert to a tyranitar, then immediately getting pounded by hidden power grass is... i'm sure you can get used to the intricacies of hp with experience, but it's just a pain in the ass to deal with starting out
wait until you find yourself wanting to use your own mons with crappy coverage
but hidden power is indeed a massive knowledge check; you'll take at least a year of passive learning to figure it out
I love it I wish more people play it. It's one of the only metas I play regualrly.
>I love it I wish more people play it
it was shattering records during ADV Revival
the hype has dwindled since the tournament's conclusion
which is good; everyone needs to realize that Pokemon is fundamentally not a competitive game, and even something as ostensibly skill-based as Gen3OU regularly sabotages your run with RNG you can't control
I played so much last year, after spending years getting good, that I realized this game sucks at its core if you care about winning and losing by merit alone. Gen3OU only creates the illusion of it.
True shit, Pokemon has too much rng baked into it, I don't feel better or worse than my opponent when one of us gets full para'd 4 turns straight, I just laugh. Pokemon is a game that rewards knowledge, experience, and pattern recognition and I've always liked that, but you're always at the mercy of a flinch, crit, confusion, freeze, ect. Even the raw damage numbers are rng.
Gens 4 and 5 are more offensive therefore better
gay
every single stallgay is a homosexual
I got into it because of the youtuber.
I like it and currently am at 1400 elo but frequently dip to 1200. I dislike suicune a lot.
Run celebi
Suicune is arguably the cheapest mon in the game, but it primarily threatens passive teams. You have Leech Seed, Explosion, Thunderbolt, Calm Mind Blissey, and various other methods to ruin it (depending on set).
But Suicune animosity is normal.
Is it worth playing, like, does the lack of phys/special split hurt it or help it?
Most pokemon aren't affected all that much. Mons like gengar get some interesting coverage while mons like gyarados get raped.
What is more relevant is the conservative move distribution. Moves like knock off are rare and unfortunate mons like scizor have to run shit like hidden power for stab options.
eh.. not really... pokemon with an offensive stat contrary to their type just have to chose between 1.5x STAB or 2x type effectiveness, so they lose... maybe ten-twenty percent of their offense? but in return they get an extra slot for more coverage, or hybrid builds. think how gengar worked in G1&2, it was a strong battler even when the only ghost moves were nightshade and lick.
defensive or supportive pokemon in a similar situation should forget about dealing damage entirely, so they get another move or two as well.
a bit too stally for my tastes but better than gen 2. Gen 4 before platinum was probably my overall favorite. You could put together all manner of teams and there was enough offense punch where stall teams had to actually make plays to win
What did Platinum do that changed this?
gave scizor bullet punch, outrage to Salamence, and generally powercreeped/diversified a lot of movepools. More pokemon just got harder to deal with. I think it made the rotom forms too. It wasn't the worst thing in the world but I preferred the slightly lower general power before it
I see (and you're right about Rotom). But doesn't more power equal more offensive playstyles?
It does but I'm personally not strictly in favor of a more offensive game. I think there's a fine range between there not being quite enough offensive punch to consistently deal with defensive cores and running over everything except the strictest of counters. Late gen 4 started leaning further into the latter imo though it's probably still better than most gens
I've made it to top 500, so I'm surely 100% qualified to say that even gen 3 is just not great as a competitive game. Dug/Aero can just Rock Slide flinch to victory in games where they're down 3-1, just because. Lucky crits can break through a counter and just make he game unwinnable. There are ways to mitigate luck, of course, but it's not much better than Gen 9 for me.
post your teams
lol, I only had one team, not multiple. For the record, my complaints aren't often because I, personally, was screwed over by luck much. I watch a fair amount of games, and have seen some heinous things. I've screwed others over more than the reverse.
https://pokepast.es/c388fa53a33575bf
Not the most consistent team by a long shot. I tend to switch Celebi out a lot on lead. Lead Heracross is evil.
oh by the way, some comments on how this team worked out for me. Celebi is definitely the everyman, not exactly an all-star, but it helps take status and chip Blissey. Milotic is my most common switch from lead. The high special defense is super nice for anything that isn't a super invested Thunderbolt from Zapdos or Jolteon. Getting toxiced sucks, but being able to spread Toxic myself helps vs bulky waters. Salac Magneton, truth be told might have been better served as HP grass. Getting switched in vs from Swampert was its most common downfall. I went dual trapping because I liked the idea of it, Dugtrio can help clean up Blissey after it's been leeched and Toxiced, or at least chip it down enough. It outspeeds and generally OHKOs +1 Tyranitar, helpful. Metagross can be a surprise tank, lives some important things and lets me revenge. If I've trapped and removed everything standing in the way, Curselax can bring a game back by itself.
You're correct about how moronicly luck-based Gen III OU (and the whole of Pokemon) is, but Top 500 is nothing.
It's a testament to the greatness of Gen III OU that you don't realize how fundamentally terrible and uncompetitive Pokemon is as a game, until you've gotten good at that particular meta, and realized your skill ceiling is hardcapped by luck.
It's like it's on the verge of being one of the greatest games of all time, if only it were devoid of all RNG. But that's not what Pokemon is, and nothing can change that.
RNG is literally the only thing making pokemon good, it prevents smoggies from easily running their beloved stallcrap
it's possible to have a system wherein crits and flinches and such are activated manually / predictably / controllably
you are possibly conflating the mechanics tied to RNG and the RNG itself
Honestly, I do know that too 500 isn’t really that impressive. What kills me is that I’ve beaten players that should be way above me in skill, someone who was top 10 on ladder, even. I haven’t done that in other generations, there’s a gap between mid and high level players. For that to happen, but gen 3 be considered super skill based, just seems wrong. It sorta feels like the limited team building options can make luck feel more of a factor than in modern gens, but I don’t know if that’s really true, or I’m exaggerating. Either way, as a competitive game, Pokemon is just dumb. I’m a bit curious of how gen 3 would be with team preview.
I've been Top 10 in gen3ou's ladder and lose very often to bad luck.
Part of being a "balanced metagame" is having no cheap way to win, such that a veteran can beat a rookie reliably.
I feel it’s the opposite though, a rookie should be able to be outplayed without the use of a gimmick, you shouldn’t randomly lose to someone who struggled to break into the top 400, I feel.
Well that's not how it works.
When I'm facing you, I probably won't even look at your elo. It doesn't matter if I do, because you could be a noob or a smurf---your elo only really tells me how many points I stand to lose.
I know nothing about how you structured your team. I know nothing about your knowledge of plays. Pokemon is fraught with guesswork and if I make even one wrong call, which could be because of lack of knowledge about your team on my part, lack of knowledge on your part about what you *should* do / have done in a certain situation, or you *knowing* what I know you know -type situation that's effectively a 50/50, I can lose the entire match.
I'll give you an example. Last night, my opponent at the high 1200s (while my account is at ~1500) had my Milotic at 20% against his incoming Charizard. This Charizard just so happened to be a threat to much of my team, and if I lose my Milotic, things aren't looking good for me. I have a Blissey to switch to, in case he should HP Grass, but everyone including myself knows Charizard runs SubPunch.
So he forced me into a 50/50 where if I switch, he could nail my Blissey with a Focus Punch, but if I stay in, I could kill it with Surf. He ended up doing exactly that and I fainted it; he went on to lose the match.
Not only is Pokemon dictated by RNG---it's also dictated by blatant guessing---which is, effectively, antithetical to skill expression.
So yeah, it's entirely easy for me or any other vet to be on the opposite side here and getting screwed over because of overestimating/underestimating/miscalculating the competence and wit of the opponent---but the only way you can properly respond is if you're a mindreader. There's no other way to be consistent in this game except by just being lucky.
To any good players itt, what do you think about hail to check endeavor swampert? If you ran something like articuno to check swampert it might start subbing which would leave hail as your best click right before it activates berry. This would counter ever set except rock slide.
How often are you actually getting got by Endeavor Swampert? Dedicating a moveslot for that seems quite niche, especially since most of your Pokemon will be getting hurt by it anyway.
Maybe you could run a team with pokemon like suicune or snorlax who don't like sand, and dugtrio to rape sand off the field. The hail could work as a sort of anti-endeavor tech and also weather clear. You could also guarantee a magneton vs skarm kill.
Maybe a mag-dug trapping core with an anti-swampert articuno all to enable a snorlax.
I used the team
, and for Endeavor Swampert, which I rarely ran into, I brought in Snorlax, which is slow, so they'll Sub until they get to 1 HP, but they end up with no sub and 1 HP at the end of the turn. I could switch to Magneton, take the Endeavor, and with my own Salac, HP to kill it. Of course, that all implied that I kept Magneton alive until then. I don't really know how good Articuno or Hail is, but considering I never saw it once, it feels like a strategy that probably wouldn't turn out as well as you'd hope, especially for a type of Swampert that seems to be a rarer type.
I'm trying to will a half decent hail pokemon into existence.
A pokemon that can generally beat normal swampert, hail to rape endeavor swampert, and invite skarm in after swampert's death so magneton can secure the hail kill would be ideal. Your post made me realize that swampert isn't going to sub up on articuno because it's too fast, so it's back to the drawing board.
Something slower than endeavor swampert, high enough value to justify it subbing all the way down, invites skarmory in, and learns hail. I'm gonna look through the dex again.
>A pokemon that can generally beat normal swampert, hail to rape endeavor swampert, and invite skarm in after swampert's death so magneton can secure the hail kill would be ideal.
>Something slower than endeavor swampert, high enough value to justify it subbing all the way down, invites skarmory in, and learns hail.
Milotic
I made a team based on your here
to try and use hail. Any of you homosexuals feel free to critique it because it's probably ass but I want it to be as good as possible.
https://pokepast.es/79ea05e227fba8eb
Milotic clears sand and sets up hail to frick over skarmory in the mag v skarm matchup and also fricks every possible swampert variant. Dug kills tar. No sand enables umbreon to act as a fake rock resist and snorlax counter with hp fighting = curse. Celebi has heal bell to make up for no refresh milotic, snorlax rest, and umbreon synchronizing.
I am now realizing that there is no point in using hail to set up the magneton-skarmory kill because skarmory still gets his spike up before he dies.
https://www.smogon.com/dex/rs/moves/hail/
You can use Milotic for Hail. It forces Endeavor Swamperts to substitute down to 1, or switch out altogether.
>a mag-dug trapping core with an anti-swampert articuno all to enable a snorlax.
I do that with Milotic as opposed to Articuno, but no weather clear
Most types of strategies work
Everything relevant has checks
Lower tier pokemon have niches
Overall probably my favorite OU, though I usually play lower tiers on showdown.
Gen III lower tiers are ruined by the moronic tiering policies of UU, which itself is garbage.
Nice Dugtrio, however-
Will they ban sleep here too?
only Breloom commonly runs a sleep move and hardly anyone uses Breloom
Sleep moves are niche in Gen 3 OU
Hypnosis Gengar doesn't feel that uncommon.
if you face the same few guys who use something over and over, it can create the illusion that it's "common"
I use Hypnosis Milotic. That doesn't mean every other Milotic isn't Toxic.
One guy using Hypnosis Focus Punch Gengar doesn't mean you have to actually account for that outside of facing him.
Well, when I say that, I don’t just mean people I’ve played. It’s people I’ve watched on ladder or in tournament. I’m not saying it’s the most common set, it just doesn’t seem uncommon, at least compared to Hypnosis Milotic. I wasn’t really commenting on whether it would be banworthy or not.
For the record, I looked up the usage after making this post, Gengar Hypnosis is around 10%, while Milotic Hypnosis is around 15%
>Gen 2 are my favourite games
>Competitive Gen 2 is about as fun as watching paint dry