Yea I know dumbest place to ask the question but I can explain
So in my setting I’m planning on having a general badlands plane of existence that was hit with some major catastrophe at some point, not entirely sold on one idea but that’s a different issue entirely
Then there’s all the different gods and their domains… and what I thought I’d do is use crusader kings 3’s cultures and religions to flesh out my settings pantheons and domains… making them each have a heaven and hell that everyone retreated to after shit went breasts up…
For example
>have a god based around air
>go into https://ck3.paradoxwikis.com/Culture
>ctrl + f “Mountaineer Ruralism”
>note which cultures have that tradition
>write down other traditions, languages, marital customs, architectural styles, fashions, coat of arms, military equipment and religions they have
>combine them all and go with the traditions most common… eliminating any outliers that might have tacked along
>and now you have a new culture
This is a fine method accept for the fact that (unsurprisingly) some cultures/religions aren’t fans of gay people and/or women…
I don’t know if writing it out will disrupt this process I have going on and at the same time I don’t want them all to be the same… however handling these themes might go wrong and was wondering how do you make em work /tg/?
Eh, if your group is already homophobic and sexist it's just a fun romp. If it's randos the best way to do it is set it in a historical period where that was prevalent. I plan on running a 50s CoC campaign so plenty of housewives and colored folk. If you're trying to introduce that into your fantasy setting and there's any question people won't like it, it's a hard sell. It's your world, why would you include that shit if you didn't agree or didn't have an obsessive agenda against it.
>It's your world, why would you include that shit if you didn't agree or didn't have an obsessive agenda against it.
Half laziness other half fear of making all the domains and gods the same
>I plan on running a 50s CoC campaign so plenty of housewives and colored folk
Would it fly in a medieval era game with maybe wild west or ww2-esque guns?
Setting originally got inspired from foxhole of all things
It's more authentic.
>If it's randos the best way to do it is set it in a historical period where that was prevalent
Doesn't matter. Even of there's a historical precedent for it, at least one person will start screeching that you're a literal nazi.
>It's your world, why would you include that shit if you didn't agree or didn't have an obsessive agenda against it.
Homophobic sentiments are older than human history and crop up independent of the region and the times. All you need is for society to reach near collapse, population to die off and suddenly gays become villified because reproduction stops becoming a luxury and becomes societal duty.
Please look forward to the next 50-60 years when the population crunch happens and suddenly having kids is the social imperative because of an unprecedented "Baby Doom"
Can I join your 50s CoC game? Pls?
what system are you playing?
Pathfinder 1e
Valid points actually, but I’m mainly having it be a background theme that’ll only come up on the rarest of occasions
Tl:dr get back in the dungeon and fight the nightmare bear
Noted, cheers
You're asking the wrong question. The real one is
>do i want to explore sexism and homophobia as themes in this game?
If you include those themes then you inevitably open them up to exploration and discussion at the table because the players will be engaging with the world. If the answer is yes then just do it, and what happens happens.
If the answer is no, then you have a few options
>agree with the players ahead of time to ignore it as window dressing/nesessary for the genre
Most people will be cool about monarchism and feudalism in fantasy settings because its a nesessary part of the genre. If your group can be cool about it with this then you dont have a problem
>play with a cult
If everyone holds the exact same beliefs about sexism/homophobia/whatever then you can cruise through without ever making anyone uncomfortable without challenging their beliefs. This option is risky
>dont
The safest option is to just write that such things dont exist because you'd rather not engage with it as a theme for whatever reason. Maybe you dont like it, maybe its distracting from other stuff, it doesnt really matter.
dont. best thing you can do as a writer is know what not to keep. dont keep this. this is your limit, spare everyone some bullshit and respect that limit.
to clarify, when i say dont, i mean dont make it a theme.
there are more fun ways to make the traditions and gods stand out than "we dont care for the gays". its safer, yes, and more importantly more interesting.
You sound gay.
I just want my characters to explore the lands, clear the dungeons, and fight the monsters.
I don't really care who wants to suck whose dick in a fictional game.
Necromancer invasion.
Shut up. Get in the dungeon. And fight the fricking wizard.
I mean I don't see how it's that difficult. Not a fan of homophobia and sexism, but I feel like it's whitewashing to act like it never existed. And like there's already still homophobia and sexism in the modern day.
I guess the important thing is to not act like modern day homophobia and sexism is the same as it was back then. I think that's where a lot of writers fricking fumble because they're not historians and think time is a flat circle. Women weren't just given lower pay then men in the middle ages, they were viewed as property. Something to note- you can correlate this directly to child mortality rates: Since most kids died before age five, women needed to constantly stay pregnant to keep the population even. Which was deadly because giving birth takes a lot out of you, doing it ten times in a row is just begging for death. And the husband upon death of the wife would just upgrade to a younger wife, leading to the commodification of women. Add onto that how hard it is to job hunt while constantly pregnant, women were forced into the domestic sphere since that's all they can do while constantly pregnant. Additional factors include STDs (which means you prioritize virgins who you know don't have them), nonexistent divorce laws, paranoia about potentially having a bastard, and so on.
Likewise in a lot of communities being gay wouldn't lead to ostracization, but a stonening. So it's someone being gay wouldn't be at the center of an empowering coming out story. They'd be utterly terrified of someone figuring out because they were laws on the books out there to physically punish them for it. A note though- historically most homophobia targeted men, since often it was thought that lesbians just straight up don't count. It's also worth noting that in many cultures, being gay wasn't what mattered or not, just if you produced an heir or not (so just lie back and think of the queen of england).
This man is moronic and historically ignorant on more topics and in more ways than can possibly be addressed in anything less than three full replies. It is easier to wholly ignore the post than try to untangle just how profoundly wrong it is in almost every sentence.
You need to stop getting your information from podcasts selling dick pills and "survivalist kits." It's leading you to making delusional posts like this one here. Everything he said was real, but not universal outside of a specific era of a particularly shitty peninsula called Europe. That also tends to be a period of time and an area of space that shitty fantasy games like OP's takes inspiration, so it's not ungrounded to use that real world history to handle the subject.
>Europe
>A peninsula
>A peninsula that totally didn't conquer all of those "enlightened" foreigners your woke ass doesn't know anything about
While uts safe to say both of those guys constructed their personalities and all resulting opinions around homosexual ressentiment and getting bullied in middle school its probably important to remember that 90% of what we know from the middle ages is based on court proceedings and the private correspondence of the Elite, and things that fall outside both those categories are hard to reconstruct.
But homosexual ressentiment is definitely the worst lens to view just about everything because they've convinced themselves that anyone who looks down on sodomy is an inscrutable monster whose behavior is entirely irrational.
Which is also why "themes of homophobia" are a pretty dumb thing to force into a game unless the theme of the game is "poor me why do they all hate me"
We do actually have a lot of records from lower-class people showing that sodomy was considered disgusting by the entire social spectrum.
Yes, but that's not a bug, its a feature. I forgot to actually segue between my arguments here, but I'm saying that the butthurt homosexuals are using the relative lack of solid documentation for the everyday lives and attitudes of the lower classes as license to make everything seem 1000 times worse than it really was so they can live out their oppression fantasies.
Ohmigod you are using people having a persecution complex to fuel your persecution complex.
says the bumpgay
Yea why has this thread survived for so long?
I mean I ain’t complaining but I gotta archive this shit at some point
I like reading church records from the 15th century england. It's pretty funny/sad what the average person of that region would get up to saturday nights. Like this one party by local farmers getting so wild that a woman accidentally threw her baby into a cauldron of boiling milk while participating in some drunken dance.
Reminds me of reading old newspapers from the very early 1900's here in the US. I remember reading one article about how a pet monkey in a home in a small town in Nebraska set a home and its barn on fire. The story ended with some phrase along the lines of "Unfortunately, the monkey remained unharmed." or something.
You need to stop getting your info from podcasts that tell you men can become women and that an economic system designed by someone who never held down a job, a system that has failed every time it was tried, will surely work if tried once more with the proper revolutionary spirit.
You need to take your meds and then read some history books.
>Everything I said was real.
Yes, it was real wrong.
>These things were literally not relevant for the overwhelmingly vast majority of human culture, and it is subsequently never relevant in any of my games; nor has it ever come up in any of the games I've played in, because I don't play with the mentally ill and/or pathologically degenerate.
>Either way, were it to come up, I'd expect """sexism""" to be the relative norm and for homogays to be treated with natural disdain and/or disgust. The exact constellations may vary slightly, as would the demarcation as to what constitutes the male visavi the female domain of affairs, but if you approach it from that angle (recognition of differences treated as obvious and natural or divinely ordained) instead of "muh sexism" or "muh homophobia" (ignorantly pathologizing what's normal behaviour throughout virtually all of human history) you'll have an easier time looking at cultures as they were, and subsequently mold the ones you are making.
Why was this post deleted? It was on-topic and answered the question of the OP. If it's off-topic, the entire thread is off-topic.
things were literally not relevant for the overwhelmingly vast majority of human culture, and it is subsequently never relevant in any of my games; nor has it ever come up in any of the games I've played in, because I don't play with the mentally ill and/or pathologically degenerate.
way, were it to come up, I'd expect """sexism""" to be the relative norm and for homogays to be treated with natural disdain and/or disgust. The exact constellations may vary slightly, as would the demarcation as to what constitutes the male visavi the female domain of affairs, but if you approach it from that angle (recognition of differences treated as obvious and natural or divinely ordained) instead of "muh sexism" or "muh homophobia" (ignorantly pathologizing what's normal behaviour throughout virtually all of human history) you'll have an easier time looking at cultures as they were, and subsequently mold the ones you are making.
>Why was this post deleted? It was on-topic and answered the question of the OP. If it's off-topic, the entire thread is off-topic.
Huh, yeah. I didn't even bother replying to this thread earlier because that guy answered OP's question well enough that I didn't need to.
>Women weren't just given lower pay then men in the middle ages, they were viewed as property.
Brevity is the soul of wit.
Huge ass posts trying to infect people with moronation is the soul of Dunning-Kruger effect.
What if /tg/ adopts a new rule where we all stop pretending to be experts on topics we clearly are not experts on? Especially avoid dictating unequivocal truths about a topic that even experts have disagreements on.
>Brevity is the soul of wit.
In this case, it is still wrong, whether you consider it witty or not.
I hate to break it to you OP but I think just taking a seat at the table is going to make your players confront their homophobia.
>Make gay historical figure do something that offends other important historical figure/god
>that important figure/god's in-group gets very mad at that gay person
>being gay is seen as sympathizing with that OG gaylord, leading them to be persecuted and tempting them to fit the gaylord's mold
>Now there are a group of reactionary gaylords doing things like infiltrating the group that hates them all to spite them for being a bunch of gays
>Rinse and repeat for generations where the original reason behind the conflict has been forgotten but now the allegedly gay-hating deity/historical guy's followers are having gay scandals left and right and you have gaylords doing gay things to the unwilling and those offended on them hunting down innocent gays
I did this. Two queens had a love affair and one's bastard tiefling half-brother usurped her and crucified her on his battle standard, where she remains as an imprisoned banshee to this day, kicking off a huge war.
most people just make their fantasy settings have things like that not matter. its not like being a gay gives you +1 CHA , -1 WIS. Or being black gives you +1 STR, DEX, CON. Or being Asian gives +3 INT. -1 CHA. If it didn't affect gameplay you can just not address those aspects of the cultures you are making. there are plenty of other levers in crusader kings that diversify the cultures. personally, i think fantasy racism is extremely over done and usually isn't actually fun to play with unless its CORE to a characters identity/roleplay.
genuinely most roleplay games, especially dnd, don't really benefit from stories about a player having to just do less, hide outside town etc, unless that player really wants it.
the great thing about fantasy is that its up to us to shape it. so if you don't want to tackle sticky social issues don't. or if you actively want to create an inclusive world for your players do that too. if you want a grimdark world of ultrabigots that can be really fun too. it really depends on if your players will have fun tackling those issues balanced against how much YOU the storyteller wants to talk about those issues. my personal recommendation is just play in a world that's very cosmopolitan and doesn't have a lot of racism, gender roles etc unless its relavent to your story.
an example, i had a setting that was essentially 1500s mediterranean Europe with fantasy races. the elves where traditionalists with extremely isolated forest kingdoms. forest Germans wanted to build settlements on the borderlands of this isolationist border culture modelled on the sioux indian. this lead them to kill humans and the humans didn't really understand why because they thought they technically weren't in the elves land, just close to it and had traded with them peacefully before. the elves also had a cultural hatred of gunpowder and steel due to an apocalypse myth in their culture. outside of that i never touch race and people play whatevemr.
Why do you guys always make the gaygiest posts. You typed a lot of words for it to just be "do whatever you want lmao"
What’s the modifier from getting aids from too much anonymous ass sex?
>excessive effort put into preemptive worldbuilding for stuff your players might never see
>hours and hours spent researching autistic details
>smear the most banal collectivism possible on top of all these details
>end up with an uniform and unoriginal world as a result
>uhhh guys how can I convince my players to like it???
Throw it all out and try again, this time only focus on the culture the players will start in, and maybe the one for the obvious baddies if you have those.
And remember, everything you do for worldbuilding you do to improve the game, don't add le ebin political issues unless you have a plan to use them in game and don't come crying if (when) the plan goes breasts up.
Depict women and homosexuals as they are in real life, shut down your adherence to upper class western cultural taboos, then infer your fantasy culture's rational reaction. You'll end up with sexism and homophobia 99% of times.
Hmm… I could try that actually
Yesh wtf? I swear I remember there being a post there too
I avoid these problems by simply not playing with leftoids. None of the games I run have gay NPCs, and I don't allow that at my tables from PCs either. None of them even really deal with explicit sexual stuff at all really, I think that it's cornball shit that is not conducive to a good game.
why though?
all too often the inclusion of such themes immediately kills the scope to make it about how LE SOCIETY DOES NOT APPROVE and turning it all into a cheap morality play that makes the sunday school stage production look like fricking Wagner.
I mean, most people are naturally sexist and homophobic, it's simply that - in the zeitgeist - expressing it is frowned upon.
In a fantasy setting, nearly the entire population would be rather more straightforward about it. They'd probably burn sodomites alive and correct lesbians with a healthy serving of dick.
frick off Tumblr, Weezer jokes aren't funny and making a victimhood setting is unfun. Why would you take one of the least appealing part of being gay/female and transplant it into an escapist fantasy setting you make with your friends?
>“frick off Tumblr”
Proceeds to whine like tumblr gay
It's weird that weezer was a soft rock 2nd tier band in the 1990s and now 16yo zoomkids have made them a hot new meme.
Eh
Weezer was just the first thing that came to mind when making that meme… there’s probably a better caption I could make for it if I wasn’t currently ill
I just don't have gays or trannies in my settings. No need for them.
Shut up you freak. Nobody likes you.
Just don't include gays in your world at all and put women in more traditional roles. If you're playing with all dudes then sexism doesn't have to come up if you don't want it too (I'm assuming you don't play with gays who make female characters.) If you have a woman in your group, you still don't really have to bring up sexism, because she's just an adventurer in a party. If they get paid for clearing out a dungeon or whatever then they'll split it amongst themselves, so what npcs think of her contributions doesn't really matter unless you make it matter. It seems easy to avoid if you don't care to make it an issue, without even making the setting unnaturally egalitarian. If you actually want to make these things themes, then go ahead. I doubt it'd be something I'd find interesting as a player, but I'm not your dad. Do what you want.
>Blatant Sexism and Homophobia is represented as a staple feature of the setting's culture with no strings attached.
Cringe.
>Blatant Sexism and homophobia is a somewhat common feature of the setting, but is evidence of a behavioral or academic failing.
Based.
America and american history gives that kind of prejudice a bad representation, as does our modern history.
Even in the fricking colonial eras, where people were lynched and killed for being queer, or beaten for being a woman and speaking up, sexism or homophobia that influenced a person to go well out of their way, and forget their personal bearing in a desire to persecute people for these potential failings was very much a failing of character. Even if everyone agrees with the salient points.
Hell, think of current. Many of us dislike trannies (and if we separate those with a medical reason to transition, from those who just don't get any sex, that should be most of us), but no one likes the troony-obsessive that can't help but shit up threads.
That's how it should be represented in fictional settings as well.
A sensible figure can be sexist and homophobic, racist and everything. But that will take a backseat to pragmatism and sensibility. They'll let the maids handle their bedroom, politely ignore the looks that their eccentric but respectable colleague gives them, and let a woman do her job, regardless of their personal thoughts.
When a figure can't let a maid into their room, jumps at the chance to accuse their fellows of homosexual thoughts, and cannot trust a woman to do a job she was bought in for, represent that as a failing. They're letting their lack of control over their prejudices interfere with their life, successes, and opportunities, and are in a very practical sense, less 'able' than the next man, due to these failings.
TL:DR, make such prejudice an obvious failing, and make those who overtly carry them clearly reduced in caliber against their contemporaries.
This is a moronic place to ask this OP. /tg/ is chock full of /misc/ rejects who will never give you an honest answer and no one in this thread has presented anything close to a historically accurate appraisal of the situation anywhere in the world at any time. Shout out to
and
the kings of the morons.
Kys newbie, your opinions are shit.
>This is a moronic place to ask this
His question would be off-topic on any other board than /b/ anon, /tg/ is the exact place to ask this question.
>Even in the fricking colonial eras, where people were lynched and killed for being queer, or beaten for being a woman and speaking up
American education, everyone.
>Women weren't just given lower pay then men in the middle ages, they were viewed as property. Something to note- you can correlate this directly to child mortality rates: Since most kids died before age five, women needed to constantly stay pregnant to keep the population even. Which was deadly because giving birth takes a lot out of you, doing it ten times in a row is just begging for death. And the husband upon death of the wife would just upgrade to a younger wife, leading to the commodification of women. Add onto that how hard it is to job hunt while constantly pregnant, women were forced into the domestic sphere since that's all they can do while constantly pregnant.
My pain is constant and sharp, and I do not hope for a better world for anyone.
Shouldn't really be a factor unless your players are Black folk or homosexuals?
African's weren't greatly discriminated against during the middle ages. Most discrimination was based on social class and differing religious beliefs, not on race.
Also who mentioned race lmao?
Intersectionality, homiez is gay now whether they wanna be or not.
Why not just make it historically realistic for a medieval society?
Here's a tip: how about you worlbuild about stuff players would even remotely care instead of fellating on meaningless shit you twat?
As a player I care about racism and sexism
I'm very racist towards orcs
Then since you want to purposely tackle with said issues you don't need a concengay like op to regulate its representation in order to not hurt your sensibilities.
Easy, just have the people from that culture put in vulnerable situations subject to player decision. In other words, they're basically moldable clay. If the players want to do bad stuff to them, then lean in on bad stuff (player and world) happening to them. If they want to reform them with kindness bs, then let the npc see the error of their ways or at least struck. If they embrace the culture's sentiments, then have the npc affirm or like them more. Overall, when it comes to controversy, just mirror what the players want in-game. That way it gives you an out if things go bad.
Work it into the plot.
For my cyberpunk campaign, btw if you play Cyberpunk RED on your friend’s kitchen floor stop reading now, my main fixer to give the parties jobs is what’s left of the mob after years of wither, much like the sopranos TV show. It’s only around 30 people that are now under fealty to the Valentinos in Night City. But one of the captains is a self loathing gay who is being blackmailed with that information by third parties, even going so far as to send the party to kill his gay lover to tie up lose ends from the paranoia. Eventually he will despise what his mob family has become and the truth about him will be revealed.
What other religions and cultures have you made via this method, and do you have any more advice for us on this please OP?
Eh… I’ve only really made one and planning on re-doing it
Only advice I can give is eel a limit of maybe 4-6 traditions per cultures and (if you have the game) feel free to play around with the coat of arms tool if you need a good idea for your culture/religions symbol
It's your interpretations. You can do whatever you want. Some religious people who rail against certain types of people don't actually have a religious justification for doing so, so don't overlook that in your considerations.
Noted
Just play 5e bro, you'll be neck deep in gays and you won't have to worry about it.
Don't
A culture doesn't need to be "rural" to be homophobic or sexist. The two concepts also do not have to exist together in the same culture. The Romans were exceptionally cosmopolitan, but also sexist. They were not homophobic in the modern sense, but they had ideas about masculinity related to who was the penetrated partner and who was penetrating during homosexual encounters. Real men penetrated, lesser men were penetrated. Women were viewed largely as property and seen as having the intellectual capacity of a child. These aspects obviously varied dramatically in time, place, and individual but that's the thing about culture - cultures do not determine the behaviors of every single member. If you want to have homophobia in a medieval game, you want a religion or philosophy that heavily prioritizes all of its members marrying (women) and reproducing. This could stem from an ancient time when every member of the tribe needed to have children or they risked extinction, it could be from feudalism (son MUST have a biological and legal heir), or a religion that forbids homosexuality as an indulgence. Sexism can stem from the relative strength of men and women (they can't fight back well enough, so they deserve it) or from a view that women should be guarded because they get pregnant (more benevolent, still patronizing). You can also reverse it and have matriarchies that view women as the natural leaders because the home (and thus property) is their domain. There's no way to reverse homophobia and have a society that lasts more than one generation. Ultimately, only include either if you want to actually utilize them for your setting.
see pic related
If you still want to work with themes of sexism/homophobia in your cultures, think about why they have those cultural values.
For example, most of ancient Greece had women confined to the home and always legally dependent on a male family member(generally their father, husband, or son depending on her situation). Why might they have done this, and what does it say about the culture?
Women needed to have 5-7 births to maintain the population, and more to expand. This requires women to spend the prime of their life pregnant, breastfeeding, and/or looking after small children. Their families also needed them to be working full time spinning thread and weaving cloth to meet their basic needs. Taken together it's no surprise that most ancient Greek women were confined in their house and were dependent on men for everything outside of it. The most prominent exception is Spartan women, whose time was freed up from household work by extracting what they needed from their slaves. Without technology or magic to vastly reduce their labor and childrearing, only elite women can have the time or ability to meaningfully participate in civil society.
Pseud says some things. Shut up gay.
wrong form of bigotry m8
Haha israelites are devious Black folk are dumb and woman are moronic.
The big bad is a rapist, but doesn't rape straight people.