They would collapse because the Imperium would have some servitors made from kids whose parents had been made into servitors.
Those kids are sent down to the Angel-inhabited planet and are there to connect the angel to the Adam-equivalent once the team finds the transport moon.
They trigger the collapse of the AT field and reduce the Angel, themselves and the Adam into goo.
They provides the nutritional slurry required to start setting up a new colony with Earth organisms and grox.
Fine? On the field of battle theres basically nothing that could touch an Angel or a possessed Eva, but the universe is big enough to handle some more impossible horrors, and given they CAN be damaged by means other than an Evas AT field (as seen with ramiel and the japan-gun) sufficient planetary bombardment or whatever would be able to deal with them (probably).
It is interesting to think how an AT field interacts with the warp or psyker powers/demons in general though, although the answer is most likely "poorly for everyone involved" - its a sanctified territory governed by the absolute boundaries of a strongly defined soul interacting with its complete antithesis, a primordial slurry where individuality means nothing and rules dont exist.
Basically a bunch of titan sized (well, going by official GW numbers they tower over titans, but those numbers are stupid) !Ctan shards now exist and will go around killing shit based on some inscrutable design that no-one in 40k is intelligent enough to figure out. Maybe we get some sick wraithknight combat out of it though, also inquisitor Misato can get it.
>It is interesting to think how an AT field interacts with the warp or psyker powers/demons in general though, although the answer is most likely "poorly for everyone involved" - its a sanctified territory governed by the absolute boundaries of a strongly defined soul interacting with its complete antithesis, a primordial slurry where individuality means nothing and rules dont exist.
/tg/ already discussed this specific thing back during the says when AdEva threads were common. The general conclusion was that Psyker and AT fields *can* interact, but most Psykers simply won't be able to do anything about them. An Angel-strength AT Field is the result of a single soul so powerful that they can 'nuh-uh' a nuke being dropped directly on top of them as a passive effect, even if they are caught completely by surprise. Arguably even the Emperor could not do that, so Psykers are not going to have a chance in hell. It would be like a glass of water trying to fight an ocean: most people might only be drops and you are way bigger than them, but this is so much bigger than you its not funny. And from what we see in the show, making mental contact with Evas/Angels doesn't end well for people. Its traumatizing at best, mind-breaking at worst.
The real interesting thing, though, is that Angels and Evas have a specific power that normally isn't available in 40k: They can use their AT Field to neutralize the AT Fields of others and degrade them. At its absolute strongest this effect is called an Anti-AT Field, where other AT Fields can't even survive within range. Since AT Fields = Souls, this raises some serious questions. So an Angel/Eva can likely just turn off or massive weaken the psyker powers of those nearby anyway. But unlike living things where at least have material bodies, demons and the like are PURE soulstuff. Its warp energy all the way down for them. So the most likely outcome of an Angel using AT-Field neutralization on demons is that the demon just... ceases to exist. Poof, gone. The demons soul likely wouldn't even make it back to the warp, it would just be permanently dead.
So thats obviously pretty huge. Depending on how strong an Angel's AT Field is, they might even pose a threat to the Chaos Gods themselves. Probably not enough to 1v1 them and win, but strong enough to inflict lasting wounds on a Chaos god that hurt it for real and will take time to heal.
>They can use their AT Field to neutralize the AT Fields of others and degrade them
Yes, At fields project conflicting "realms of authority" which weaken or destroy each other. But thats not actually a concept alien to 40k, if obviously without the terminology. The AT field is the territory governed by the soul, the boundary of self within which reality essentially functions to the owners whims, similar mechanics are at play within the warp and within the warp there are a multitude of entities who possess similar "authority" over their domain.
The difference between an AT and the warp is that the AT field is a realm of the self whereas the warp is a realm where "self" does not really exist. To put it in Eva terms, no individual warp entity is an Angel, rather Chaos itself is the Angel.
Destroying souls is also entirely possible in 40k, its what happens when demons eat a soul for example, or when dark eldar harvest it. Souls arent immortal in 40k.
>Depending on how strong an Angel's AT Field is, they might even pose a threat to the Chaos Gods themselves.
Without going into Rebuild metafiction robots territory there is no Angel remotely "big" enough for it. It would be as the other anon put it "a glass of water trying to fight an ocean"
>So thats obviously pretty huge
Actually, I don't know that it is. There are already tools available to do this specific thing. They maybe aren't as reliable as throwing an angel at a daemon, but the angels are even rarer than those alternatives, so that about evens up. It's not a good change for Chaos, but it's not really crippling either, since Chaos is so big and well fed it won't collapse until the Imperium does anyway.
counterpoint: throwing an angel in the warp is going to produce an abomination of unconscionable scale
AT fields arent invincible, we know that, put it under enough pressure from the outside and it breaks. What happens when the perfect being loses its individuality within the sea of souls?
>>I dont want to know what warp impact looks like.
Speak for yourself. That sounds amazing and can in no way backfire. What the worst case scenario here, that it kills everyone? That's a win in 40k. It fricks with the Warp? Well I think we can agree that the Warp and its consequences have been a disaster for the human race. Daemon-angel hybrids? Ironically, as most daemons are considered part of their patron god, this would technically just weaken and fracture Chaos, as though all of your nails and hairs developed consciousness and seceded from your body.
2 months ago
Anonymous
>What the worst case scenario here, that it kills everyone?
Instrumentality but with demons. The warp invading all life on the most intimate and fundamental level possible as the boundary between "the warp" and "not the warp" fractures irreversibly.
Most likely it just leads to an angel getting corrupted by chaos as its "self" is subsumed by a raging hell-dimention where "self" doesent really exist and coming out the other end as a horrific monster. Still bad.
2 months ago
Anonymous
>coming out the other end as a horrific monster
Pretty sure it will explode if you do that, actually. That happens in the series and people just turn into Tang, except that one time they turned into salt.
2 months ago
Anonymous
>That happens in the series
In the series its a fusion of an Angel (a spawn of adam) and a spawn of lilith, and yea, its bad. What happens if an Angel fuses with warp-frickery is unpredictable in every way except "its going to not be good". Maybe it remains an angel shaped thing except now its unstable and having the angel equivalent of a mental breakdown. Maybe it causes a psychic shockwave that will frick everyone, maybe it just explodes, maybe it births a new warp entity and rips a second eye of terror open...
2 months ago
Anonymous
I feel like an Angel getting corrupted by Chaos would IMMEDIATELY backfire on the chaos gods, because an Angel-sized soul would quickly gestate into a new chaos god entirely. Remember that all of humanity added together is 'an Angel'. Chaos managing to subsume something that big in one go would be pretty difficult to justify, its more likely that the Angel has enough 'weight' to it that it gets its own chaos domain. Hard to say what kind of god it represents, though. Loneliness, maybe?
2 months ago
Anonymous
>Remember that all of humanity added together is 'an Angel'
Yea, but thats in a world where like 7 billion people live (if that). Theres quite a lot more humans in 40k.
I also got the impression that humanity was an "angel" in the sense that they had the potential to form that same sort of "perfect being" as a singular system (tang/instrumentality), not a literal numeral "metaphysical equivalence" to humans adding up to make an angel. By that same logic I think "khorne" or even "chaos" could be described as "an Angel" - a complex system of seemingly individual beings with boundaries between them and yet serving as part of a greater whole - even if naturally I dont think "chaos" has an equal "soul-weight" to humanity even taken as aggregate, especially not Evangelions humanity which is just earth.
On the topic of loneliness though, that seems almost the antithesis of the warp - a place which could be (somewhat accurately anyways) be described as "raw, tangible, empathy", it is a world made out of the innermost self of countless beings, the truth of countless souls laid bare. Outcome asides it could prove rather seductive a prospect for beings characterized by their singularity and isolation and the deep loneliness that stems from that.
Sort of following from that, I could see an AT field functioning similarly to a geller field, it is territory which the warp cannot enter (an enforced projection of external law), and thus while the AT field holds an Angel cannot meaningfully interact with the warp or connect with it. Only experience an infinite connection to other life a hairs length away and yet utterly unattainable without oblivion.
>But unlike living things where at least have material bodies, demons and the like are PURE soulstuff. Its warp energy all the way down for them. So the most likely outcome of an Angel using AT-Field neutralization on demons is that the demon just... ceases to exist. Poof, gone. The demons soul likely wouldn't even make it back to the warp, it would just be permanently dead
>tfw you are completely erased from existence by a gay flying twink
>that they can 'nuh-uh' a nuke being dropped directly on top of them as a passive effect
And a gun with the output of japans electricity could kill one.
Angels are astonishingly powerful, absolutely godlike, but they are not beyond (for example) what the Ctan or whatever can accomplish/could accomplish in their heyday. Those things ate stars. And the Ctan were killed, shattered and enslaved by "conventional" weapons. And thats probably the best comparison for them, "greater Ctan shards". Similarly alien and impossible powers, similarly singularly powerful, still ultimately finite.
You could also almost certainly find various nuke/space nuke feats in 40k
>And a gun with the output of japans electricity could kill one.
You are heavily underselling what that gun did or why it was capable of killing Ramiel.
>You are heavily underselling what that gun did
The railgun used was, iirc a conventional weapon, ramiel was too dangerous for an eva to approach so they had to use a conventional superweapon to kill it. The Evas were used to aim the gun/defend it, but their special properties didnt help it kill Ramiel.
The gun fired a big energy pulse (or was it railgun shot) powered by the entire energy output of japan or thereabouts.
>And a gun with the output of japans electricity could kill one.
You are heavily underselling what that gun did or why it was capable of killing Ramiel.
>that they can 'nuh-uh' a nuke being dropped directly on top of them as a passive effect
And a gun with the output of japans electricity could kill one.
Angels are astonishingly powerful, absolutely godlike, but they are not beyond (for example) what the Ctan or whatever can accomplish/could accomplish in their heyday. Those things ate stars. And the Ctan were killed, shattered and enslaved by "conventional" weapons. And thats probably the best comparison for them, "greater Ctan shards". Similarly alien and impossible powers, similarly singularly powerful, still ultimately finite.
You could also almost certainly find various nuke/space nuke feats in 40k
from the wiki: >Due to our worlds current knowledge of science the Positron Rifle works by colliding a positron (charged electron which a +1 charge) with a normal electron (-1 charge.) When these two collide annihilation occurs and sends out gamma ray photons which in the anime is what we see as the laser beam like ray that exits the gun when it fires. The reason it is made out to be such a hard task for Shinji is because electrons are affected by almost any other particle it collides with, so for example changes in magnetic flux density around them can cause them to change direction could change direction, also because of the Earth curvature gravity will affect it also.
Effectively a psychic field powered by a large soul vs effectively a psychic field powered by a network of smaller souls, yeah i think that's exactly how it works. They may need some wierdboyz to control it though.
Is there any sensible lore explanation for Evangelion that's understandable by a non-terminal-weeb-schizo?
Watched the original series *long* ago, and it felt like someone was tasked with making a stereotypical "fight the latex&cardboard monster of the week" power ranger thing, but half-way through production decided he wanted to tie everything together instead of embracing the unexplained randomness.
And whenever I look up for an explanation it's never the same. Also it got remake afterward that change the story or something?
My vague understanding: >the first 2 got a duel on Earth >Adam barely won and end in coma >Lilith's bleed everywhere and spark life on Earth (or humans only, not sure) >Human find the two corpses, try to defribrillator Adam which make it explode in giblets >giblets reforms as the various monster-of-the-week >want to finish off Lilith, recognize humans as its servants >humans made their own monster-of-the-week-from-giblets out of Lilith, they are drug and lobotomized to stay under control >those lilith angels are half-made from regular human (?) pilot need to be related to be tolerated >they kill all part of adam for good and everyone fuse with lilith in their own personal dream/heaven
How fricking wrong am I?
The plot of evangelion isnt actually that complex, its just not delivered clearly in the show because the plot isnt important to the mental breakdown of the main character.
Afaik you mostly have it: >long ago ancient aliens scatter terraforming devices on different planets >earth gets 2 somehow (well, one lands on the moon) >this kills the dinosaurs >the frickup renders them mostly inert, but one of them ends up causing humans to exist >much later some humans find the terraforming engines and end up reactivating the first one, this starts creating angels (self contained race-beings, perfect entities which have near godlike power) >humans use the other terraforming engine they have lobotomized in a basement to create weapons to fight the angels >along the way the illuminati (essentially) becomes convinced they can uplift humanity to a higher state of being using the engine, and that they can combine all of humanity into a perfect angel-like being which doesent know pain or suffering or loneliness
tl;dr humans are the glitchy biproduct of a braindead terraforming god and fight the offspring of a second terraformer god that want to repair the first braindead one, then they end up deciding that maybe being orange juice is good actually. Dont bother trying to understand the remakes they're shitty and delve too far into metafiction fart sniffing.
The Jet Alone project literally was never going to work. It was an amazing machine, but they sort of brushed aside the AT Field problem as 'we'll figure it out later, look at all of these other advantages we have over Evangelions though!"
A Jet Alone could never do the job of an Eva. What it could do, however, is CONVINCE the nations of the world that it WAS. Funding diverted from Nerv to the Jet Alone project could have deprived Nerv of crucial resources and prevented them from building, repairing, and arming the Evangelions that actually worked (which, you may recall, was astronomically expensive). The difference between Unit 01 getting repaired in a week and Unit 01 getting repaired in a month could be that you don't have the ability to field Unit 01 against the next Angel, and that means *every single person dies*.
So yeah, Nerv sabotaged the frick out of Jet Alone. It was sketchy, but the right call
The flip side, of course, is that Nerv chose to sabotage Jet Alone to remove it as competition for their funding instead of accomplishing the same ends by revealing what an Eva actually is. The rest of the world doesn't know that Evangelions are cloned Angels and thats how they make AT Fields. The Jet Alone team just thought that AT Fields were some proprietary tech that Nerv had cracked and that 'if they did it we can too, or maybe they buy it off of them once we replace them'.
If everyone else had all of the facts, they would have known from the start that Jet Alone was doomed to be a failure no matter how hard they tried. But Nerv chose its secrecy over cooperation, because Nerv is part of a shadowing global conspiracy and they don't want to tip their hand about what they really do, how they do it, and how they know weirdly a lot about the Angels.
2 months ago
Anonymous
Evangelion had a surprising amount of layers to it, when you take the plot in to account and the conspiracy involved in the show.
>It is interesting to think how an AT field interacts with the warp or psyker powers/demons in general though, although the answer is most likely "poorly for everyone involved" - its a sanctified territory governed by the absolute boundaries of a strongly defined soul interacting with its complete antithesis, a primordial slurry where individuality means nothing and rules dont exist.
/tg/ already discussed this specific thing back during the says when AdEva threads were common. The general conclusion was that Psyker and AT fields *can* interact, but most Psykers simply won't be able to do anything about them. An Angel-strength AT Field is the result of a single soul so powerful that they can 'nuh-uh' a nuke being dropped directly on top of them as a passive effect, even if they are caught completely by surprise. Arguably even the Emperor could not do that, so Psykers are not going to have a chance in hell. It would be like a glass of water trying to fight an ocean: most people might only be drops and you are way bigger than them, but this is so much bigger than you its not funny. And from what we see in the show, making mental contact with Evas/Angels doesn't end well for people. Its traumatizing at best, mind-breaking at worst.
An example of this is the Nid Hive Mind, and how Tiggie can commune with it.
Because the EVA isnt actually a big robot and its power doesent come from "stats" as much as having the same kind of metaphysical power as an Angel and thus being able to counter them. Conventional weapons have a very bad effectiveness against Angels because angels literally have a magical "nuh huh" field around them which takes insane force to break, far more than would be reasonably possible to actually use without an EVAs counter-field.
The Evas are also a step along the way of turning humanity into goop for the illuminati, so thats a second reason to sabotage the regular big robot, since if that gets funding the secret cabal that wants to turn everyone into tang might lose funding.
>Is there any sensible lore explanation for Evangelion that's understandable by a non-terminal-weeb-schizo?
Japanese don't understand the Bible. They simply can't understand the Bible. The entire idea of a single outside arbiter of absolute good and evil is lost on them.
Funnily enough, they could probably be handled by the Tyranids. According to EVA, all living things have an AT Field, but a human’s is just too small to do anything besides keep its individuality. Tyranid bio-titans, however, would have a much larger AT Field due to being massive (and indeed Hierophants are said to have a warp field which protects them from damage like an AT Field, which means in a crossover they could be considered the same thing).
While bio-titans are largely smaller than Angels, the Tyranids can produce a lot more of them and have even sent them out in packs. There’s a famous story of an Emperor-class Titan being brought down when a group of Hierophants pounced on it. And Tyranids in the fluff have produced larger bio-titans, like that aquatic one from Octarius or the Emperor Titan-sized Screamer Killer from a Ciaphas Cain short story.
Well, the most direct translation of them to 40k would be them waking up on Earth to initiate Third Impact. The loss of a single planet would normally be chump change to the Imperium, but that world being Holy Terra is obviously a big deal. Nothing on the planet would survive intact, not even the Golden Throne, which would be a galactic disaster and shatter the Imperium.
For the first few Angels the fight will be hugely destructive but overall survivable. An Angel appears on Earth, and 99% of the Imperium's arsenal is completely fricking useless against it. No amount of troops and space marines and tanks is going to ever hurt them, they can survive WMDs to the face nearly unharmed. And, unlike void shields, AT Fields cannot be overloaded and 'crash' with weight of fire, making them much tankier than a Titan is. The are only two ways for the Imperium to kill an Angel. The first is to either have a very specific kind of gun that works the exact opposite of the way that the Imperium operates and you would only ever use if you were already very familiar with how AT Fields work (a level of understand and experimentation that is simply beyond the AdMech, the idea that they are going to crank out a customized technological leap in a couple days when they spend hundreds of years at a time making exactly zero innovations is simply absurd).
The second is to take advantage of the fact that AT Fields only make the Angel *nearly* invulnerable to WMDs, and to hammer it from orbit even if only 1% of the damage gets through until the damn thing finally dies. This will work, but the damage done to Holy Terra in the process is going to be insane and probably get a lot of pushback. Depending on where the Angel appears, they might not be allowed to orbital strike it at all until it moves.
The problem is that the Angels are going to get weirder over time and that is going to require the IoM to get creative to keep up, something that the IoM is very bad at. They are going to want to keep trying to solve the problem with brute force because thats the only thing they know, and the cost of doing so is going to get higher and higher
It is entirely possible that the Imperium loses to Sandalphon simply because it wakes up underground in the mantel of the earth. The IoM doesn't have a good answer to attacking something that lives in magma that deep underground. The only weapons they have that even theoretically could do so would involve nearly planet-busting Holy Terra. This would be basically the same as the IoM losing anyway.
But even if they get past that trial, the Imperium 100% loses Holy Terra to Iruel. Its a rapidly evolving nanomachine virus that subverts technology on contact but also extends the protection of its AT field to what it has taken over. And its sneaky, even for Nerv which has literal Angel-detectors all over the base they didn't notice anything was wrong until Iruel made its big play.
In the show, Iruel is only defeated by a very specific, very clever solution that hinged on a hail mary plan involving powerful AI used to trick Iruel into evolving itself into a dead end. The idea that the Imperium would be able to do the same is frankly hilarious in its absurdity. Whats going to happen instead is that the Imperium isn't even going to know that its there until huge chunks of Holy Terra defensive infrastructure, perhaps even the Golden Throne itself, are fully under Iruel's control and then it chooses to attack. Even with orbital bombardment to try and burn out the worst infected areas you'll never be able to destroy all of it, and the bits that survive will simply grow back stronger and probably immune to whatever you lasted used against it.
Imperium can't beat Iruel. Iruel wins, either very quickly or slowly.
>The idea that the Imperium would be able to do the same is frankly hilarious in its absurdity.
In terms of the setting, what would happen is that some rogue techpriest would innovate a solution, the Mechanicus would use it, then condemn the techpriest as a heretek and execute him.
The Imperium has no issue with breaking its own rules, as long as they can blame someone and do away with them afterwards.
The imperiums technology may be ironically too moronic for Iruel. They dont have proper computers, they have magic boxes with spirits inside of them and more often than not several I have no mouth and I must scream abominations stitched on for good measure.
Mars may have it worse if Iruel ends up there, but then again Mars is already infested by malicious sentient code, so Iruel might not even make much of a difference compared to the 20 other varieties of self - evolving murder-code that they unleashed on themselves during their civil war.
>Iruel spawn on holy terra >nothing perceptible happen because every other demon/rogue AI have teamed up against it in the mother of all Matrix crab bucket
>fish angel spawns >dies because all the oceans vanished ages ago
realtalk: if lilith was on terra the emperor would have 100% used her for making space marines, either that or some dark age of technology warlord would have made !eva to use as monsters for his wars
> realtalk: if lilith was on terra the emperor would have 100% used her for making space marines, either that or some dark age of technology warlord would have made !eva to use as monsters for his wars
Nah, Lilith would have been something the Emperor locked away because he was too afraid of what she can do. He wouldn't destroy her, he might need her some day as a tool, but Lilith when awake has absolute control over the minds, bodies, and souls of all life that was born from Earth's evolutionary tree... the Emperor included. He would never take the risk of waking up something that has the power to rip away his free will in an instant. Though we don't know the maximum range of that control, its at bare minimum planet-wide but it might not range out to other solar systems.
At the same time, she represents the absolute last ditch "frick it, roll the dice and see what happens" option when all hope for humanity appears lost.
Toying with Adam is one thing, but the Emperor would have too much to lose from toying with Lilith.
I wonder if the IoM could deal with Iruel by just blasting it with enough psychic energy to get rid of its AT field so it turns to tang? There’s a shit ton of psykers on Terra if I remember right?
>you would only ever use if you were already very familiar with how AT Fields work
How do they work?
From the few I have seen of Evangelion it's just your butt-standard magical sci-fi shield that have no rhyme or reason to what it can stop outside of "the last desperate attack by the main character because we need to end the episode at some point".
The positron rifle specifically works because it focuses a tremendous amount of energy on as small a point as possible, only a couple of atoms across. The AT Field's power is control of a volume of space. The more space your attack passes through, the more leverage you give the AT Field to work against it. By packing the maximum punch into the absolute minimum amount of space, you limit the surface area that the At Field can act upon and thus overwhelm it if you have enough power.
The problem for the Imperium is that, not knowing this specific detail, they will try to hit the AT Field with BIGGER attacks when what they need is SMALLER attacks at the same strength. A bigger bomb, a bigger laser, etc that is 100x the strength but 10x the size will actually do dramatically worse against the AT Field than normal because you are playing directly into its strengths, whereas the positron rifle worked because it under the weaknesses of the At Field.
With 40k's powerlevels, meeting the energy requirements to bypass the AT Field like the positron rifle did is easy. But because they don't know how to leverage that power they are going to frick it up. They will punch harder every time, but the solution here requires them to punch SMARTER, and thats not a thing the IoM does. This is why the fact that the weapon in question is a POSITRON canon is important, its the smallest form of antimatter, and antimatter is the highest-yield explosion possible within the laws of physics. Logically you cannot get as much bang for as little buck as positrons. Plasma is many times weaker in comparison, so you need much more of it to accomplish the same level of destruction. But as already described, throwing MORE stuff at the AT Field is going to give diminishing returns very quickly.
Wouldn't the Tyranid Shadow in the Warp suppress an AT field also? Considering it's functionally an AT field by itself, spread across multiple galaxies?
Nah. The shadow in the warp is a problem for psykers and chaos because they depend on the warp for all of their shit and either can't turn off their connection to it or live there fulltime. So the sheer cacophony of trillions of bugminds screaming at each other nonstop directly into your ear fricks you up.
Angels don't have any inherent connection to the warp, they may canonically have Big Souls but they are not psychic in the same sense that 40k psykers are. It would be like someone using radio jamming near you but you don't even own a radio so you don't notice.
No, because the Shadow is an issue for Warp-based entities because thry need the Warp to function. All Angel souls are internal and expressed only through themselves, so they'd have no issues.
They would collapse because the Imperium would have some servitors made from kids whose parents had been made into servitors.
Those kids are sent down to the Angel-inhabited planet and are there to connect the angel to the Adam-equivalent once the team finds the transport moon.
They trigger the collapse of the AT field and reduce the Angel, themselves and the Adam into goo.
They provides the nutritional slurry required to start setting up a new colony with Earth organisms and grox.
they'd be brought down by imperial titans
those are basically just less-cool chaos demons
Only Psi-Titans would be able to piece AT fields.
>Kaworu
The Dark Angels are history.
Fine? On the field of battle theres basically nothing that could touch an Angel or a possessed Eva, but the universe is big enough to handle some more impossible horrors, and given they CAN be damaged by means other than an Evas AT field (as seen with ramiel and the japan-gun) sufficient planetary bombardment or whatever would be able to deal with them (probably).
It is interesting to think how an AT field interacts with the warp or psyker powers/demons in general though, although the answer is most likely "poorly for everyone involved" - its a sanctified territory governed by the absolute boundaries of a strongly defined soul interacting with its complete antithesis, a primordial slurry where individuality means nothing and rules dont exist.
Basically a bunch of titan sized (well, going by official GW numbers they tower over titans, but those numbers are stupid) !Ctan shards now exist and will go around killing shit based on some inscrutable design that no-one in 40k is intelligent enough to figure out. Maybe we get some sick wraithknight combat out of it though, also inquisitor Misato can get it.
>It is interesting to think how an AT field interacts with the warp or psyker powers/demons in general though, although the answer is most likely "poorly for everyone involved" - its a sanctified territory governed by the absolute boundaries of a strongly defined soul interacting with its complete antithesis, a primordial slurry where individuality means nothing and rules dont exist.
/tg/ already discussed this specific thing back during the says when AdEva threads were common. The general conclusion was that Psyker and AT fields *can* interact, but most Psykers simply won't be able to do anything about them. An Angel-strength AT Field is the result of a single soul so powerful that they can 'nuh-uh' a nuke being dropped directly on top of them as a passive effect, even if they are caught completely by surprise. Arguably even the Emperor could not do that, so Psykers are not going to have a chance in hell. It would be like a glass of water trying to fight an ocean: most people might only be drops and you are way bigger than them, but this is so much bigger than you its not funny. And from what we see in the show, making mental contact with Evas/Angels doesn't end well for people. Its traumatizing at best, mind-breaking at worst.
The real interesting thing, though, is that Angels and Evas have a specific power that normally isn't available in 40k: They can use their AT Field to neutralize the AT Fields of others and degrade them. At its absolute strongest this effect is called an Anti-AT Field, where other AT Fields can't even survive within range. Since AT Fields = Souls, this raises some serious questions. So an Angel/Eva can likely just turn off or massive weaken the psyker powers of those nearby anyway. But unlike living things where at least have material bodies, demons and the like are PURE soulstuff. Its warp energy all the way down for them. So the most likely outcome of an Angel using AT-Field neutralization on demons is that the demon just... ceases to exist. Poof, gone. The demons soul likely wouldn't even make it back to the warp, it would just be permanently dead.
So thats obviously pretty huge. Depending on how strong an Angel's AT Field is, they might even pose a threat to the Chaos Gods themselves. Probably not enough to 1v1 them and win, but strong enough to inflict lasting wounds on a Chaos god that hurt it for real and will take time to heal.
>They can use their AT Field to neutralize the AT Fields of others and degrade them
Yes, At fields project conflicting "realms of authority" which weaken or destroy each other. But thats not actually a concept alien to 40k, if obviously without the terminology. The AT field is the territory governed by the soul, the boundary of self within which reality essentially functions to the owners whims, similar mechanics are at play within the warp and within the warp there are a multitude of entities who possess similar "authority" over their domain.
The difference between an AT and the warp is that the AT field is a realm of the self whereas the warp is a realm where "self" does not really exist. To put it in Eva terms, no individual warp entity is an Angel, rather Chaos itself is the Angel.
Destroying souls is also entirely possible in 40k, its what happens when demons eat a soul for example, or when dark eldar harvest it. Souls arent immortal in 40k.
>Depending on how strong an Angel's AT Field is, they might even pose a threat to the Chaos Gods themselves.
Without going into Rebuild metafiction robots territory there is no Angel remotely "big" enough for it. It would be as the other anon put it "a glass of water trying to fight an ocean"
>So thats obviously pretty huge
Actually, I don't know that it is. There are already tools available to do this specific thing. They maybe aren't as reliable as throwing an angel at a daemon, but the angels are even rarer than those alternatives, so that about evens up. It's not a good change for Chaos, but it's not really crippling either, since Chaos is so big and well fed it won't collapse until the Imperium does anyway.
counterpoint: throwing an angel in the warp is going to produce an abomination of unconscionable scale
AT fields arent invincible, we know that, put it under enough pressure from the outside and it breaks. What happens when the perfect being loses its individuality within the sea of souls?
I dont want to know what warp impact looks like.
>>I dont want to know what warp impact looks like.
Speak for yourself. That sounds amazing and can in no way backfire. What the worst case scenario here, that it kills everyone? That's a win in 40k. It fricks with the Warp? Well I think we can agree that the Warp and its consequences have been a disaster for the human race. Daemon-angel hybrids? Ironically, as most daemons are considered part of their patron god, this would technically just weaken and fracture Chaos, as though all of your nails and hairs developed consciousness and seceded from your body.
>What the worst case scenario here, that it kills everyone?
Instrumentality but with demons. The warp invading all life on the most intimate and fundamental level possible as the boundary between "the warp" and "not the warp" fractures irreversibly.
Most likely it just leads to an angel getting corrupted by chaos as its "self" is subsumed by a raging hell-dimention where "self" doesent really exist and coming out the other end as a horrific monster. Still bad.
>coming out the other end as a horrific monster
Pretty sure it will explode if you do that, actually. That happens in the series and people just turn into Tang, except that one time they turned into salt.
>That happens in the series
In the series its a fusion of an Angel (a spawn of adam) and a spawn of lilith, and yea, its bad. What happens if an Angel fuses with warp-frickery is unpredictable in every way except "its going to not be good". Maybe it remains an angel shaped thing except now its unstable and having the angel equivalent of a mental breakdown. Maybe it causes a psychic shockwave that will frick everyone, maybe it just explodes, maybe it births a new warp entity and rips a second eye of terror open...
I feel like an Angel getting corrupted by Chaos would IMMEDIATELY backfire on the chaos gods, because an Angel-sized soul would quickly gestate into a new chaos god entirely. Remember that all of humanity added together is 'an Angel'. Chaos managing to subsume something that big in one go would be pretty difficult to justify, its more likely that the Angel has enough 'weight' to it that it gets its own chaos domain. Hard to say what kind of god it represents, though. Loneliness, maybe?
>Remember that all of humanity added together is 'an Angel'
Yea, but thats in a world where like 7 billion people live (if that). Theres quite a lot more humans in 40k.
I also got the impression that humanity was an "angel" in the sense that they had the potential to form that same sort of "perfect being" as a singular system (tang/instrumentality), not a literal numeral "metaphysical equivalence" to humans adding up to make an angel. By that same logic I think "khorne" or even "chaos" could be described as "an Angel" - a complex system of seemingly individual beings with boundaries between them and yet serving as part of a greater whole - even if naturally I dont think "chaos" has an equal "soul-weight" to humanity even taken as aggregate, especially not Evangelions humanity which is just earth.
On the topic of loneliness though, that seems almost the antithesis of the warp - a place which could be (somewhat accurately anyways) be described as "raw, tangible, empathy", it is a world made out of the innermost self of countless beings, the truth of countless souls laid bare. Outcome asides it could prove rather seductive a prospect for beings characterized by their singularity and isolation and the deep loneliness that stems from that.
Sort of following from that, I could see an AT field functioning similarly to a geller field, it is territory which the warp cannot enter (an enforced projection of external law), and thus while the AT field holds an Angel cannot meaningfully interact with the warp or connect with it. Only experience an infinite connection to other life a hairs length away and yet utterly unattainable without oblivion.
>But unlike living things where at least have material bodies, demons and the like are PURE soulstuff. Its warp energy all the way down for them. So the most likely outcome of an Angel using AT-Field neutralization on demons is that the demon just... ceases to exist. Poof, gone. The demons soul likely wouldn't even make it back to the warp, it would just be permanently dead
>tfw you are completely erased from existence by a gay flying twink
>that they can 'nuh-uh' a nuke being dropped directly on top of them as a passive effect
And a gun with the output of japans electricity could kill one.
Angels are astonishingly powerful, absolutely godlike, but they are not beyond (for example) what the Ctan or whatever can accomplish/could accomplish in their heyday. Those things ate stars. And the Ctan were killed, shattered and enslaved by "conventional" weapons. And thats probably the best comparison for them, "greater Ctan shards". Similarly alien and impossible powers, similarly singularly powerful, still ultimately finite.
You could also almost certainly find various nuke/space nuke feats in 40k
>And a gun with the output of japans electricity could kill one.
You are heavily underselling what that gun did or why it was capable of killing Ramiel.
>You are heavily underselling what that gun did
The railgun used was, iirc a conventional weapon, ramiel was too dangerous for an eva to approach so they had to use a conventional superweapon to kill it. The Evas were used to aim the gun/defend it, but their special properties didnt help it kill Ramiel.
The gun fired a big energy pulse (or was it railgun shot) powered by the entire energy output of japan or thereabouts.
from the wiki:
>Due to our worlds current knowledge of science the Positron Rifle works by colliding a positron (charged electron which a +1 charge) with a normal electron (-1 charge.) When these two collide annihilation occurs and sends out gamma ray photons which in the anime is what we see as the laser beam like ray that exits the gun when it fires. The reason it is made out to be such a hard task for Shinji is because electrons are affected by almost any other particle it collides with, so for example changes in magnetic flux density around them can cause them to change direction could change direction, also because of the Earth curvature gravity will affect it also.
Enough Waaagh Energy might neutralize the AT fields just by being near.
Thats still, still not how orks work. 1dGanker memes are not canon.
Effectively a psychic field powered by a large soul vs effectively a psychic field powered by a network of smaller souls, yeah i think that's exactly how it works. They may need some wierdboyz to control it though.
Is there any sensible lore explanation for Evangelion that's understandable by a non-terminal-weeb-schizo?
Watched the original series *long* ago, and it felt like someone was tasked with making a stereotypical "fight the latex&cardboard monster of the week" power ranger thing, but half-way through production decided he wanted to tie everything together instead of embracing the unexplained randomness.
And whenever I look up for an explanation it's never the same. Also it got remake afterward that change the story or something?
My vague understanding:
>the first 2 got a duel on Earth
>Adam barely won and end in coma
>Lilith's bleed everywhere and spark life on Earth (or humans only, not sure)
>Human find the two corpses, try to defribrillator Adam which make it explode in giblets
>giblets reforms as the various monster-of-the-week
>want to finish off Lilith, recognize humans as its servants
>humans made their own monster-of-the-week-from-giblets out of Lilith, they are drug and lobotomized to stay under control
>those lilith angels are half-made from regular human (?) pilot need to be related to be tolerated
>they kill all part of adam for good and everyone fuse with lilith in their own personal dream/heaven
How fricking wrong am I?
The plot of evangelion isnt actually that complex, its just not delivered clearly in the show because the plot isnt important to the mental breakdown of the main character.
Afaik you mostly have it:
>long ago ancient aliens scatter terraforming devices on different planets
>earth gets 2 somehow (well, one lands on the moon)
>this kills the dinosaurs
>the frickup renders them mostly inert, but one of them ends up causing humans to exist
>much later some humans find the terraforming engines and end up reactivating the first one, this starts creating angels (self contained race-beings, perfect entities which have near godlike power)
>humans use the other terraforming engine they have lobotomized in a basement to create weapons to fight the angels
>along the way the illuminati (essentially) becomes convinced they can uplift humanity to a higher state of being using the engine, and that they can combine all of humanity into a perfect angel-like being which doesent know pain or suffering or loneliness
tl;dr humans are the glitchy biproduct of a braindead terraforming god and fight the offspring of a second terraformer god that want to repair the first braindead one, then they end up deciding that maybe being orange juice is good actually. Dont bother trying to understand the remakes they're shitty and delve too far into metafiction fart sniffing.
NTA but why did one of the scientist sabotage the nuclear non angel EVA?
The Jet Alone project literally was never going to work. It was an amazing machine, but they sort of brushed aside the AT Field problem as 'we'll figure it out later, look at all of these other advantages we have over Evangelions though!"
A Jet Alone could never do the job of an Eva. What it could do, however, is CONVINCE the nations of the world that it WAS. Funding diverted from Nerv to the Jet Alone project could have deprived Nerv of crucial resources and prevented them from building, repairing, and arming the Evangelions that actually worked (which, you may recall, was astronomically expensive). The difference between Unit 01 getting repaired in a week and Unit 01 getting repaired in a month could be that you don't have the ability to field Unit 01 against the next Angel, and that means *every single person dies*.
So yeah, Nerv sabotaged the frick out of Jet Alone. It was sketchy, but the right call
Well when you put it that way yeah it was more than justifiable even if it was a dick move
The flip side, of course, is that Nerv chose to sabotage Jet Alone to remove it as competition for their funding instead of accomplishing the same ends by revealing what an Eva actually is. The rest of the world doesn't know that Evangelions are cloned Angels and thats how they make AT Fields. The Jet Alone team just thought that AT Fields were some proprietary tech that Nerv had cracked and that 'if they did it we can too, or maybe they buy it off of them once we replace them'.
If everyone else had all of the facts, they would have known from the start that Jet Alone was doomed to be a failure no matter how hard they tried. But Nerv chose its secrecy over cooperation, because Nerv is part of a shadowing global conspiracy and they don't want to tip their hand about what they really do, how they do it, and how they know weirdly a lot about the Angels.
Evangelion had a surprising amount of layers to it, when you take the plot in to account and the conspiracy involved in the show.
An example of this is the Nid Hive Mind, and how Tiggie can commune with it.
Because the EVA isnt actually a big robot and its power doesent come from "stats" as much as having the same kind of metaphysical power as an Angel and thus being able to counter them. Conventional weapons have a very bad effectiveness against Angels because angels literally have a magical "nuh huh" field around them which takes insane force to break, far more than would be reasonably possible to actually use without an EVAs counter-field.
The Evas are also a step along the way of turning humanity into goop for the illuminati, so thats a second reason to sabotage the regular big robot, since if that gets funding the secret cabal that wants to turn everyone into tang might lose funding.
>Is there any sensible lore explanation for Evangelion that's understandable by a non-terminal-weeb-schizo?
Japanese don't understand the Bible. They simply can't understand the Bible. The entire idea of a single outside arbiter of absolute good and evil is lost on them.
anon you understand the biblical jargon is literally just codenames right?
Funnily enough, they could probably be handled by the Tyranids. According to EVA, all living things have an AT Field, but a human’s is just too small to do anything besides keep its individuality. Tyranid bio-titans, however, would have a much larger AT Field due to being massive (and indeed Hierophants are said to have a warp field which protects them from damage like an AT Field, which means in a crossover they could be considered the same thing).
While bio-titans are largely smaller than Angels, the Tyranids can produce a lot more of them and have even sent them out in packs. There’s a famous story of an Emperor-class Titan being brought down when a group of Hierophants pounced on it. And Tyranids in the fluff have produced larger bio-titans, like that aquatic one from Octarius or the Emperor Titan-sized Screamer Killer from a Ciaphas Cain short story.
Well, the most direct translation of them to 40k would be them waking up on Earth to initiate Third Impact. The loss of a single planet would normally be chump change to the Imperium, but that world being Holy Terra is obviously a big deal. Nothing on the planet would survive intact, not even the Golden Throne, which would be a galactic disaster and shatter the Imperium.
For the first few Angels the fight will be hugely destructive but overall survivable. An Angel appears on Earth, and 99% of the Imperium's arsenal is completely fricking useless against it. No amount of troops and space marines and tanks is going to ever hurt them, they can survive WMDs to the face nearly unharmed. And, unlike void shields, AT Fields cannot be overloaded and 'crash' with weight of fire, making them much tankier than a Titan is. The are only two ways for the Imperium to kill an Angel. The first is to either have a very specific kind of gun that works the exact opposite of the way that the Imperium operates and you would only ever use if you were already very familiar with how AT Fields work (a level of understand and experimentation that is simply beyond the AdMech, the idea that they are going to crank out a customized technological leap in a couple days when they spend hundreds of years at a time making exactly zero innovations is simply absurd).
The second is to take advantage of the fact that AT Fields only make the Angel *nearly* invulnerable to WMDs, and to hammer it from orbit even if only 1% of the damage gets through until the damn thing finally dies. This will work, but the damage done to Holy Terra in the process is going to be insane and probably get a lot of pushback. Depending on where the Angel appears, they might not be allowed to orbital strike it at all until it moves.
The problem is that the Angels are going to get weirder over time and that is going to require the IoM to get creative to keep up, something that the IoM is very bad at. They are going to want to keep trying to solve the problem with brute force because thats the only thing they know, and the cost of doing so is going to get higher and higher
It is entirely possible that the Imperium loses to Sandalphon simply because it wakes up underground in the mantel of the earth. The IoM doesn't have a good answer to attacking something that lives in magma that deep underground. The only weapons they have that even theoretically could do so would involve nearly planet-busting Holy Terra. This would be basically the same as the IoM losing anyway.
But even if they get past that trial, the Imperium 100% loses Holy Terra to Iruel. Its a rapidly evolving nanomachine virus that subverts technology on contact but also extends the protection of its AT field to what it has taken over. And its sneaky, even for Nerv which has literal Angel-detectors all over the base they didn't notice anything was wrong until Iruel made its big play.
In the show, Iruel is only defeated by a very specific, very clever solution that hinged on a hail mary plan involving powerful AI used to trick Iruel into evolving itself into a dead end. The idea that the Imperium would be able to do the same is frankly hilarious in its absurdity. Whats going to happen instead is that the Imperium isn't even going to know that its there until huge chunks of Holy Terra defensive infrastructure, perhaps even the Golden Throne itself, are fully under Iruel's control and then it chooses to attack. Even with orbital bombardment to try and burn out the worst infected areas you'll never be able to destroy all of it, and the bits that survive will simply grow back stronger and probably immune to whatever you lasted used against it.
Imperium can't beat Iruel. Iruel wins, either very quickly or slowly.
>The idea that the Imperium would be able to do the same is frankly hilarious in its absurdity.
In terms of the setting, what would happen is that some rogue techpriest would innovate a solution, the Mechanicus would use it, then condemn the techpriest as a heretek and execute him.
The Imperium has no issue with breaking its own rules, as long as they can blame someone and do away with them afterwards.
The imperiums technology may be ironically too moronic for Iruel. They dont have proper computers, they have magic boxes with spirits inside of them and more often than not several I have no mouth and I must scream abominations stitched on for good measure.
Mars may have it worse if Iruel ends up there, but then again Mars is already infested by malicious sentient code, so Iruel might not even make much of a difference compared to the 20 other varieties of self - evolving murder-code that they unleashed on themselves during their civil war.
>Iruel spawn on holy terra
>nothing perceptible happen because every other demon/rogue AI have teamed up against it in the mother of all Matrix crab bucket
>fish angel spawns
>dies because all the oceans vanished ages ago
realtalk: if lilith was on terra the emperor would have 100% used her for making space marines, either that or some dark age of technology warlord would have made !eva to use as monsters for his wars
So lilith is probably somewhere in space
> realtalk: if lilith was on terra the emperor would have 100% used her for making space marines, either that or some dark age of technology warlord would have made !eva to use as monsters for his wars
Nah, Lilith would have been something the Emperor locked away because he was too afraid of what she can do. He wouldn't destroy her, he might need her some day as a tool, but Lilith when awake has absolute control over the minds, bodies, and souls of all life that was born from Earth's evolutionary tree... the Emperor included. He would never take the risk of waking up something that has the power to rip away his free will in an instant. Though we don't know the maximum range of that control, its at bare minimum planet-wide but it might not range out to other solar systems.
At the same time, she represents the absolute last ditch "frick it, roll the dice and see what happens" option when all hope for humanity appears lost.
Toying with Adam is one thing, but the Emperor would have too much to lose from toying with Lilith.
I wonder if the IoM could deal with Iruel by just blasting it with enough psychic energy to get rid of its AT field so it turns to tang? There’s a shit ton of psykers on Terra if I remember right?
>you would only ever use if you were already very familiar with how AT Fields work
How do they work?
From the few I have seen of Evangelion it's just your butt-standard magical sci-fi shield that have no rhyme or reason to what it can stop outside of "the last desperate attack by the main character because we need to end the episode at some point".
The positron rifle specifically works because it focuses a tremendous amount of energy on as small a point as possible, only a couple of atoms across. The AT Field's power is control of a volume of space. The more space your attack passes through, the more leverage you give the AT Field to work against it. By packing the maximum punch into the absolute minimum amount of space, you limit the surface area that the At Field can act upon and thus overwhelm it if you have enough power.
The problem for the Imperium is that, not knowing this specific detail, they will try to hit the AT Field with BIGGER attacks when what they need is SMALLER attacks at the same strength. A bigger bomb, a bigger laser, etc that is 100x the strength but 10x the size will actually do dramatically worse against the AT Field than normal because you are playing directly into its strengths, whereas the positron rifle worked because it under the weaknesses of the At Field.
With 40k's powerlevels, meeting the energy requirements to bypass the AT Field like the positron rifle did is easy. But because they don't know how to leverage that power they are going to frick it up. They will punch harder every time, but the solution here requires them to punch SMARTER, and thats not a thing the IoM does. This is why the fact that the weapon in question is a POSITRON canon is important, its the smallest form of antimatter, and antimatter is the highest-yield explosion possible within the laws of physics. Logically you cannot get as much bang for as little buck as positrons. Plasma is many times weaker in comparison, so you need much more of it to accomplish the same level of destruction. But as already described, throwing MORE stuff at the AT Field is going to give diminishing returns very quickly.
The moms are hotter. https://files.catbox.moe/01mlqp.jpg
They'll be fine.
They won't redefine the setting, but they will be fine.
Wouldn't the Tyranid Shadow in the Warp suppress an AT field also? Considering it's functionally an AT field by itself, spread across multiple galaxies?
Nah. The shadow in the warp is a problem for psykers and chaos because they depend on the warp for all of their shit and either can't turn off their connection to it or live there fulltime. So the sheer cacophony of trillions of bugminds screaming at each other nonstop directly into your ear fricks you up.
Angels don't have any inherent connection to the warp, they may canonically have Big Souls but they are not psychic in the same sense that 40k psykers are. It would be like someone using radio jamming near you but you don't even own a radio so you don't notice.
No, because the Shadow is an issue for Warp-based entities because thry need the Warp to function. All Angel souls are internal and expressed only through themselves, so they'd have no issues.
If in the 40k verse, all souls reflect into the warp.
If in Eva verse, Nids are still massive globs of combined souls, but the shadow wouldn't exist.
>Reminder that this guy mogged all three main EVAs at the same time in close combat
Well of course, anon, that's fricking Godzilla.
Depending on the continuity Godzilla could merc Chaos.
Godzilla has beaten up God and Satan, he has OHKO superman. Its hardly surprising.
Is there anything goji can't do?
understand the workings of a human heart