Imagine >wow never took off >the interent was never monetized by sweaty dudebros in Silicon Valley and remained a niche hobby to post online >games remained a think for children and enthusiasts
Imagine how the world would be now if that were true...
I'm pretty sure that even if you destroyed Blizzard entirely only the first bullet point would be the case
The internet was always going to be colonised. That's like imagining North America not being settled.
How is WoW at fault for that.
If anything Blizzard was late to the game with their shitty store.
You should blame something like Diablo 3 or Bethesda for horse armor instead.
Imagine >wow never took off >the interent was never monetized by sweaty dudebros in Silicon Valley and remained a niche hobby to post online >games remained a think for children and enthusiasts
Imagine how the world would be now if that were true...
Imagine >wow never took off >the interent was never monetized by sweaty dudebros in Silicon Valley and remained a niche hobby to post online >games remained a think for children and enthusiasts
Imagine how the world would be now if that were true...
the problem with MMO is the same problem in society. Eventually it becomes endgame players, which are basically the 1 percent, you need to incentivize the rest of 99% to not only stay but to collect materials the problem is most new content is always for the 1%. leaving the 99 shit outdated content.
The MMO problem is that MMOs are subtractive in nature. The devs create a full game, and then keep taking away until players are basically a 1/16 piece of what would be a "full" player in any other game not played by dimwits. Here's a good example of how this might work. >Tetris >Except every player is 1 individual block that falls from the sky per game >All you get to do is fall from the sky once and pray that the other people weren't fricking moronic >With individual skill more or less out the window, the whole game devolves into the other players accusing each other of being moronic >No one is having fun, but everyone keeps playing because they "like the community" or "enjoy the teamwork" >or if they're really a Neanderthal, they'll even say they "enjoy the gameplay."
I dunno that sounds like it could be fun.
I think that should be done more, like I remember World in Conflict's multiplayer doing something similar - instead of traditional RTS multiplayer 1v1, you had 1v1 factions but each was a team controlling each section of the faction - infantry, armor, aircraft & artillery - and had to coordinate with each other. I think you also had one player acting as a commander.
You just described only a quarter of the problem.
The biggest problem with MMOs right now is that they're made for group content but every single MMO on the market trains players in a bubble on quests that are done solo.
So a game has maybe 500 hours of content, but you have to invest 150-200 hours before you hit the part where you're playing primarily with other players and have to just magically know everything there is to know about using your character in a group despite the fact the game trained you for 150 hours by yourself.
To put it in your analogy, it would be like if there was a multiplayer tetris game, but the first 100 or so hours was just normal tetris until you hit the "real" part of the game, which is what you described. What you described isn't even a bad idea for a Tetris game, it's just not worth playing a different game for 100 hours until you get to it. Thus why MMOs now routinely fail when they try the solo quest chain bullshit.
The solo quest chains to progress really kill me. Old games where exp was mostly grinding monsters were a little repetitive but you could bump into anyone at any point and group up. Now with quest lines if you aren’t on the same quest one of you gets jack shit for helping out the other so there is no incentive unless you play in lock step.
Hell I don’t know if it is still the same but years ago trying out FFXIV I couldn’t even throw a buff on a passer by. That was like, a staple of the Ragnarok Online community - walking around and tossing a blessing / agility buff and a cure on some dude who aggroed one too many poison spores. But we wouldn’t want anyone to work with their friends to power level each other or anything. No sir!
>But we wouldn’t want anyone to work with their friends to power level each other or anything. No sir!
You see what you're describing is antithetical to what other anons are describing they want in this thread which is games with good singleplayer content that are just made better from being co-op.
Like imagine if elden ring had a million people running around, and people could "power level" each other like you said by gangbanging every enemy with like 10 guys. That doesn't seem like a better game.
>Like imagine if elden ring had a million people running around, and people could "power level" each other like you said by gangbanging every enemy with like 10 guys. That doesn't seem like a better game.
If Elden Ring was as you described, it would have 10 times the monsters to compensate. that's how RO worked, and it was an excellent game for something as simple as click monster -> he dies
1 year ago
Anonymous
What would happen is trains of people would form to go from enemy to enemy and the most optimal way to play would to follow these trains to just gangbang enemies as fast as possible, as fighting enemies with traditional fromsoft combat would be inefficient by comparison.
The combat would then be completely unappreciated.
Has any game ever done something like, the more people hit an enemy, or are near an enemy, the stronger it gets (like an enrage mechanic), and the stronger an enemy is the better the loot? I feel like this *could* work, but I don't think I've seen it.
I mean multi player in monster hunter is basically four hunters gang banging one monster and that series is doing well.
But more reasonably what the frick is the point of playing a multi player game if there are going to be so many restrictions on who you can play with and how? No, that person is too high level so you can’t group at all or if you can no one gets anything from the shit they kill. No, that person didn’t do the pre-req quests and has to go do a bunch of shit solo before they can join in. No, your group doesn’t have the proper number of tanks healers and damage dealers so it won’t work.
The whole point is to actually play with other people. If I want to do a full party of priests and banish the frick out of a bunch of undead or just out-heal an encounter who cares?
1 year ago
Anonymous
The ideal mmo that people actually have in their heads is an isekai world with no actual players in it other than yourself and the people you want to bring with you.
No one actually wants an mmo with strangers, they want a living breathing world, and currently humans are more alive feeling than npc's. The issue is the other players existing immediately demands that there be restrictions that make these games suck.
1 year ago
Anonymous
>they want a living breathing world, and currently humans are more alive feeling than npc's
>99% of the player base is literal NPCs
Think we found the problem.
1 year ago
Anonymous
Ask how I know you're young and never played SWG, City of Heroes, or old WoW.
1 year ago
Anonymous
SWG was so based
Knowing a “weapons guy” that could just make better shit at the time cause he had played since day 1, and then sharing that connection with my friend was such a based feeling
Probably the closest I’ve ever felt to being in another society
Vanilla kinda had the same thing where I knew full time alchemists who got satisfaction from looking for mats for consumables, making them, hearing that they got used and being told what loot their consumables helped to acquire
That all went away when blizzard made professions more casual so people had enough time in the day to make all their own shit and raid
1 year ago
Anonymous
Yeah I think a lot of MMOs frick crafting up because 99% of everything you can craft is completely worthless. You just craft the current max level gear/food/potion/whatever and nothing else.
1 year ago
Anonymous
That's why it has to be tiered and start from the bottom, kind of like terraria or albion online.
1 year ago
Anonymous
Eve Online did it well since everything in the game had to be crafted and much of it required even basic materials a fresh account could gather. It really sucks that Eve is mostly a spreadsheet simulator ridden with bots otherwise.
1 year ago
Anonymous
>Yeah I think a lot of MMOs frick crafting up because 99% of everything you can craft is completely worthless
This was the downfall of DAOC. Before artifact (legendary) weapons were introduced, the best gear in the game was player crafted. Game slowly went to shit because it tried to mimic WoW.
1 year ago
Anonymous
>No one actually wants an mmo with strangers,
Funny, this is my exact opposite experience.
EVERYONE wants an MMO with strangers, everyone wants to be that validated important member of a functioning group. The problem arises in that strangers are buttholes and the game discourages you from talking or meeting with anyone, because there is nothing you can do with them/get from them unless they're very specifically interested in partying with you.
Much of that is on the players, for being buttholes and BRs, but a lot of that is on the game for being so immense inflexible. Inflexible games mean that players get anti-social attitudes and realize that's the best way to play: with their discord friends and no one else.
1 year ago
Anonymous
>EVERYONE wants an MMO with strangers, everyone wants to be that validated important member of a functioning group. The problem arises in that strangers are buttholes and the game discourages you from talking or meeting with anyone, because there is nothing you can do with them/get from them unless they're very specifically interested in partying with you.
Yeah, that's what I said. No one actually wants an mmo with strangers.
1 year ago
Anonymous
>Yeah, that's what I said. No one actually wants an mmo with strangers.
That's the opposite of what I said. People want to play with strangers when they select an MMORPG to play because it has MMO in the name, they know what they're getting into.
It's the devs who make inflexible systems and hostile environments for partying who make it a miserable time.
1 year ago
Anonymous
No they don't anon. If those strangers were ultra intelligent npc's like sword art online or something like that they'd prefer that every time, because it means they could be the main character. In mmo's you aren't the main character and are always benchmarked next to everyone else.
1 year ago
Anonymous
>No they don't anon. > In mmo's you aren't the main character and are always benchmarked next to everyone else.
My man, you're describing the exact kind of hostile environment for partying that I'm describing and you don't even know it.
Benchmarking is a side effect of min-maxing, which is a requirement if you want to tackle serious content. those strangers, themselves, don't hurt anyone by being stronger than another person by simply being in the same party, on the contrary; this is how the vast majority of people playing MMORPGs learned to play their class: they had someone else teach them.
At least, that's how it used to be. Now everyone follows a guide because devs made it a requirement for every class to be the same way to tackle the "Actual game" (read: the stuff at the very end), people don't want that, they would rather team up with someone else and complete objectives on their own terms, but MMOs now don't allow that.
1 year ago
Anonymous
You're just describing a single-player game, which is what most people HATE about modern MMOs. People want to socialize in these games. They don't want hyper intelligent NPCs, they want that sporadic touch you only find with another human. Sure, some are obnoxious and really dumb, but that's just dealing with any player, right? Those SAO NPCs aren't going to randomly tell you about the time they caught their sister fricking the family dog.
>The solo quest chains to progress really kill me. Old games where exp was mostly grinding monsters were a little repetitive but you could bump into anyone at any point and group up. Now with quest lines if you aren’t on the same quest one of you gets jack shit for helping out the other so there is no incentive unless you play in lock step.
Or worse, there are 1000 quest lines in the game and even if you ARE in the same stage, it makes no sense to do them together because you're essentially stealing each other' content, slowing the group down.
Or it's just outright bugged like ToS and TERA where partying up HALVES your xp.
>but every single MMO on the market trains players in a bubble on quests that are done solo.
Basically every quest in guild wars 2 is a cooperative one, other than the instanced ones.
Ask how I know you're young and never played SWG, City of Heroes, or old WoW.
I'm literally 30
1 year ago
Anonymous
Doubt it but even if that is true you've still never played those during their peak times.
1 year ago
Anonymous
It had nothing to do with the games that they worked out like that. Back then people were playing mmo's for a ton of different reasons. Co-op survival craft games didn't exist, skype wasn't really a thing yet, moba's weren't really a thing yet, battle royale wasn't really a thing yet.
All of those things exist now and the people left playing mmo's are not playing them for the same reasons they used to, because most people moved on. It never had anything to do with the quality of those games, because mmo's by design are jack of all trades masters of none.
I hate endgame being prioritized so much. Why on earth would I want to grind the same dungeons and raids over and over again just to get gear to get better at running the same dungeons and raids I had already cleared many times?
The part of an mmo I like the best is it being a multiplayer rpg game. Exploring the world and questing with others is fun. Why can’t other mmos just follow this way instead of mmos treating the lvling process as a tutorial that lasts hours to get through to finally get to the “actual game” of raiding?
>I hate endgame being prioritized so much. Why on earth would I want to grind the same dungeons and raids over and over again just to get gear to get better at running the same dungeons and raids I had already cleared many times?
It should be because doing the said raid and dungeon over and over again because it is fun. Monster Hunter for example has basically operated on this principle with varying success.
Basically this. MMOs these days only have the diehard players in them, no noobs or casuals anymore. Runescape worked because it had every type of player
Make MMOs about the journey again, not the destination.
is spot on, but it's something a bit deeper than that. Society as a whole doesn't want a slow journey through a very relaxed, carefree hangout anymore. They want instant gratification in everything it does. Social media is the apex of instant gratification at the click of a button, and it's hard for a game which requires a bit of build-up and work in order to achieve full satisfaction to compete.
MMOs dying in general is just a metaphor for the death of the best times of the internet. Fixing it would require people who aren't spineless and finding a niche that doesn't care that it's a niche.
>Make MMOs about the journey again, not the destination.
I know what you mean, but that's not how it works. The game design doesn't matter if everyone just datamines the game with wikis and rushes to the finish line in the most mathematically efficient way.
The gaming community back then was what made MMOs great.
There is this story that RO was initially little more than a chatroom with characters. While I don't know how true this is, it is definitely what my experience playing it was like. I spent more time chatting with complete strangers than actually play the game. Not memes or shitposting, but actual conversations. You can't program this into a game. This is purely about how people interact with each other in such games. Modern online media and communication platforms have ruined people in this regard.
>boring combat >checklist "exploration" >everyone is some flavour of homosexual or troon >endgame areas are spongy as frick to encourage player zerging >instead of well designed quests you have a couple endlessly repeating event chains
The only good thing it has is mounts and that's more a novelty, undercut by how much grinding you need to do for them.
Eh, not really. GW2 would make a better singleplayer game than an MMO, given its lack of meaningful/satisfying progression (masteries are not meaningful/satisfying progression).
>boring combat >checklist "exploration" >everyone is some flavour of homosexual or troon >endgame areas are spongy as frick to encourage player zerging >instead of well designed quests you have a couple endlessly repeating event chains
The only good thing it has is mounts and that's more a novelty, undercut by how much grinding you need to do for them.
I'd recommend checking it out again if you haven't, while masteries might not be the best solution, I definitely love how I can show a friend the game and we can just coop through it despite me having thousands of hours in it already because it still rewards us both for our time. Also doing away with quests is a blessing, they aren't fun to do.
NTA but watching paint dry is fun with friends. ANYTHING can be fun with friends, it's not an argument.
1 year ago
Anonymous
>ANYTHING can be fun with friends, it's not an argument.
This is unironically why MMOs suck now. People are gay and we don't wanna be friends with homosexuals.
1 year ago
Anonymous
NTA but watching paint dry is fun with friends. ANYTHING can be fun with friends, it's not an argument.
>an mmo is fun with friends
Anon, I don't know what is wrong with you
the "fun with friends" thing has weight but you're playing a multiplayer game and complaining it's bad that it's fun with friends?
How the frick is it supposed to be fun then?
1 year ago
Anonymous
>complaining it's bad that it's fun with friends?
I'm not complaining that it's fun with friends. The point is most of us don't have any friends anymore because everyone is a troony now.
1 year ago
Anonymous
I don’t make friends online anymore because I’m not a lonely adolescent starved for friends to play with. My few real friends and myself all have jobs, partners, families, and hang out by visiting each other or short term multiplayer games. Most MMO players in their early-mid 30’s are mentally unwell and are generally sad people, not who I want to hang out with.
If you aren’t a big autist or a mentally ill person you are too normal to play MMOs
1 year ago
Anonymous
Because if your game is ONLY fun with friends it's a dogshit game. If I can't play solo with stranger or simply solo and it be fun it's a bad game. "Fun with friends" is not a pro or a con - it's meaningless
1 year ago
Anonymous
"fun with friends" should mean just that, nothing more and nothing less. So tired of people acting like that means a game is good or could make a bad game better.
1 year ago
Anonymous
>ANYTHING can be fun with friends, it's not an argument.
This is unironically why MMOs suck now. People are gay and we don't wanna be friends with homosexuals.
nta but the goal isn't to make your game ONLY fun with friends, it's to make it ONLY fun with other people, who may become your friends.
If you add every barrier in the world to make it where it's not fun with other people, why would anyone play your game? You're describing something that's a feature, not a problem.
1 year ago
Anonymous
>it's to make it ONLY fun with other people, who may become your friends
MMO, more like MKUltra to integrate you into the troony open globo homosexual bug eating shit frick. I'm a frick a shit this world is so gay.
1 year ago
Anonymous
>no you HAVE to play with the troony spamming uwu and the Hispanic disconnecting every 5 minutes
go play wow or ffxiv if you want that. What you're talking about is not the solution, it's the problem.
1 year ago
Anonymous
The problem with saying MMOs are fun with friends is that literally any fricking video game is fun with friends. That selling point is pointless. If MMOs can’t create communities of unrelated players coexisting and having a good time through in game events by devs or player run, it’s not an MMO
1 year ago
Anonymous
>go play wow or ffxiv if you want that.
Those games are MOSTLY SINGLEPLAYER. You spend almost ALL of your time in single-player content like quests with only a teeny, tiny fraction ever seeing any of those people.
If your problem in general is you're playing the massively multiplayer game with other people, I have to ask what the frick you expect out of an MMO? Or rather, what do you think is wrong with them now? You can do almost all of the content in 14 by yourself, and in fact; you can even party with bots for the ultimate forever alone experience.
1 year ago
Anonymous
confirmed to have never played either, unless you consider finishing the MSQ playing the game (it's not)
1 year ago
Anonymous
kek, here we go again, someone tries to convince us the MSQ, which comprises 98% of the story and is where almost all players are currently residing, is not the main portion of the game.
Go on, oh wise one, look at this chart, and tell us how the vast majority of players who are not at the end-game content, don't even have the token raid mounts, and are playing 300 hours of MSQ aren't playing the content of the game but the maybe 100 hours of end-game raids, of which requires completing the MSQ and there are a tiny fraction of people who can participate, is.
1 year ago
Anonymous
>b-but what about the turbocasuals!
literally who cares? 98% of the ffxiv playerbase doesn't actually play the game, we know.
1 year ago
Anonymous
>No no, they're not TRUE players playing the TRUE game because (excludes 98% of people playing the game because they are 'casuals')
ok so if you admit only 2% are at end-game, you can admit the end-game isn't the actual game for the intended audience.
Thanks, bud
1 year ago
Anonymous
you're talking about people who started late and never caught up, I don't know what to tell you. Among players who have been subbed from day 1, even the most casual finishes the new patch's msq in a week, then has nothing but FORCED MULTIPLAYER content to do for 6 months.
what you consider the "actual game for the *snort* intended audience" is totally irrelevant, I'm telling you what the experience of players that actually play the game is. It's what you say you want, and it's there, buy a msq skip and go do it.
1 year ago
Anonymous
>you're talking about people who started late and never caught up, >I'm telling you what the experience of players that actually play the game >the ones playing the game not at end-game don't count
So the majority of people who play the game don't count because they are not TRUE players of the game. (true players being the ones who play it the way I do)
I don't get this obsession MMO players have with excluding most of the players because they aren't "hardcore" enough. It's not like you're playing a high-skill high-stakes game. The difference between you and them is 200 or so hours of straight MSQ grind. So what if they want to play the game at the pace they like? Are they less important now than the 2% of players at end-game? They both pay the same sub.
Anyway, this is why MMOs are dead. Thanks for illustrating my initial point in the most benign way possible.
1 year ago
Anonymous
what point are you even trying to make you drooling idiot? We're talking about you, not ffxiv's playerbase. It doesn't matter what 98% of the playerbase does because YOU can go play it, and play your "forced multiplayer" game with a bunch of other likeminded individuals. So why the frick are you here complaining instead of playing the games that are, like it or not, made with discord trannies like you in mind?
1 year ago
Anonymous
>Among players who have been subbed from day 1,
that's not the majority of players. >what you consider the "actual game for the *snort* intended audience" is totally irrelevant
frick you, your raid grinding is unfun and actually irrelevant in the grand scheme of people who play this game.
raidgays are a cancer. always have been. you blow through 80 hours of content in a weekend, act like that's casual because you poopsock in your mother's basement, and demand no one else play with you because the *nee hee SNORT* FORCED MULTIPLAYER!!!!!!!! in your massively multiplayer game like you somehow didn't know that would be a requirement.
FFXV is sixty bucks, that's' like six months of subs, you could go play that instead.
1 year ago
Anonymous
>I don't want to play solo >I also don't want to play group content
behold, the moronic troony homosexual. You don't know what you want, you just want to complain.
this is actually another part that I find so fricking weird in modern MMOs.
You have characters who can subclass as literal dancers and prostitutes dressed like this but there are ZERO social features in any of these games. I think Marriage is the most I've ever seen in an MMO as the closest you and someone else can get, and even modern MMOs don't call it marriage.
Fricking why? What's the problem with your social game having social elements in it? It's not like you have to show characters on-screen fricking. But you can't even lay in the same bed with someone you married in-game. You can't even kiss someone you married in-game.
And yeah I'll get some vedditor scream 'coomer!' over this, but the point of MMOs is human interaction, except most of them strip out all human interaction. I can't even call someone a c**t in a bar without a magic sky daddy intervening and banning me.
It's unfortunate, but I think it's a product of the modern age. Players will optimize the fun out of a game, and now they can find anything they need without ever having to stop and ask.
This really set in for me when WoW Classic launched.
players optimize the fun out of a game if they're encouraged to.
People forget that the min maxxing bullshit only became a problem when the goal of a game was end-game, where you HAD to be your best in order to play.
min-maxxing in these games always existed, it just wasn't a problem if you weren't ever going to be at end-game and instead just chilling with friends doing mid or late game stuff. Who cares if you do 60 extra damage there? It only becomes a problem if the focus of the game are places where that 60 extra damage DOES matter.
Players will always strive to find the fun in a game that the devs put there, the devs simply forgot what fun is.
It's unfortunate, but I think it's a product of the modern age. Players will optimize the fun out of a game, and now they can find anything they need without ever having to stop and ask.
This really set in for me when WoW Classic launched.
WoW classic had the problem of being a solved game, and it wasn't a perfect game by any means, remember The Barrens?
You can't take WoW's playerbase, who lived and died on the wiki, and expect them to play like they just set foot in the game for the first time. A new game has that advantage, though.
WoW classic had the problem of being a solved game, and it wasn't a perfect game by any means, remember The Barrens?
You can't take WoW's playerbase, who lived and died on the wiki, and expect them to play like they just set foot in the game for the first time. A new game has that advantage, though.
Yeah players optimizing the fun out is a huge problem.
Some anon said above that they'd want free multiclassing, but if you don't separate entire characters by classes then people will just gravitate towards all just picking the "best" class, instead of just focusing on a single character with a single class and then just doing their best within that class.
this is actually another part that I find so fricking weird in modern MMOs.
You have characters who can subclass as literal dancers and prostitutes dressed like this but there are ZERO social features in any of these games. I think Marriage is the most I've ever seen in an MMO as the closest you and someone else can get, and even modern MMOs don't call it marriage.
Fricking why? What's the problem with your social game having social elements in it? It's not like you have to show characters on-screen fricking. But you can't even lay in the same bed with someone you married in-game. You can't even kiss someone you married in-game.
And yeah I'll get some vedditor scream 'coomer!' over this, but the point of MMOs is human interaction, except most of them strip out all human interaction. I can't even call someone a c**t in a bar without a magic sky daddy intervening and banning me.
same
[...]
players optimize the fun out of a game if they're encouraged to.
People forget that the min maxxing bullshit only became a problem when the goal of a game was end-game, where you HAD to be your best in order to play.
min-maxxing in these games always existed, it just wasn't a problem if you weren't ever going to be at end-game and instead just chilling with friends doing mid or late game stuff. Who cares if you do 60 extra damage there? It only becomes a problem if the focus of the game are places where that 60 extra damage DOES matter.
Players will always strive to find the fun in a game that the devs put there, the devs simply forgot what fun is.
WoW classic had the problem of being a solved game, and it wasn't a perfect game by any means, remember The Barrens?
You can't take WoW's playerbase, who lived and died on the wiki, and expect them to play like they just set foot in the game for the first time. A new game has that advantage, though.
[...]
Yeah players optimizing the fun out is a huge problem.
Some anon said above that they'd want free multiclassing, but if you don't separate entire characters by classes then people will just gravitate towards all just picking the "best" class, instead of just focusing on a single character with a single class and then just doing their best within that class.
The reason is I think people want to hop in and play a game and not live a second life (memes aside) kind of game.
Second Life itself is just a bunch of degen boomers and if people want to hang out with randoms online there's discord or VRChat (also for freaks)
>The reason is I think people want to hop in and play a game and not live a second life (memes aside) kind of game.
They can still do that. The best MMOs I played as a kid were when I had little computer time. I got to level 200 in RO just playing an hour a day.
Actually the mmo genre is healthier than ever but blizzard has warped people in to not accepting anything but the "if you're not first you're last mentality" there are multiple well populated mmos going right now, this is truly a golden age but mmo players are all braindead mono gamers so another game doing well is not a sign of health to them it's a sign of a threat that sends them into a mental spiral
>Fix the mmo genre
Considering most popular MMOs these days serve as little more than troony containment zones you'd probably have to get rid of them first.
I've played WoW for 15 years. I've played xiv for thousands of hours.
One community goes "Just try it lmao", the other goes "here's a bulletpoint list of reasons to play it! dont skip! dont boost! but the story is outdated!"
FFXIV is only decent because it's barely a fricking MMO. Just do the story versions of everything and unsub since you've already seen the best parts of the game. Or stay subbed for the second life ERP shit if you're into that.
The gearing really isn't interesting enough to justify the endgame treadmill, and it actually makes me hate the game less than other MMOs since I never get wrapped up in grindy bullshit when I come back to it.
You literally can't, the problem is the players not the genre itself. Look at WoW 15 years ago compared to the WoW classic re-release. Same game but the players were way more invested into the journey and exploring the world and communicating, you knew the people around you and guilds were more than a place to just find a raiding group.
Wow Classic? Almost everyone was trying to speedrun the game, the raids were the only goal and it was all anybody cared about. There was no investment in the journey, the world, the people. It was just maximizing dps to do a raid on repeat
I would have the entirety of FF14 and include the pvp content of GW2. To keep things mildly interesting between expansions. Also a badly needed graphical update.
>What makes it genius?
Playing it as a child because it was free.
There's nothing good about it, it's a shitty checklist game with abhorrently bad gameplay.
World design and quest design, as well as the travel based progression. The wilderness is something that will never be emulated, nor will the old ways of "SCRAMBLES" when your character died be emulated either. OSRS is a shell of its former self because of the lack of such things.
The problem stems from the general gameplay. but that doesn't suddenly damn the bones of what is there. Its a very strong foundation that devs are too afraid to use because devs are way way afraid of games with these risk factors, and ultimately the biggest problem with MMOs these days is that they are all milquetoast and risk adverse, on top of an increasingly sweaty playerbase. Even the very game that had these foundations had fallen into these trappings.
>Runescape is unironically the best MMORPG
runescape isn't even an MMO anymore with everyone playing ironmen, there's very little actual interaction with eachother at all and very little grouping, pvp killed etc, it's an MMO in name only
Its part of why I called OSRS a shell. Some of the bones of what it was is there but almost in name and presentation only. You never really had to group in Runescape, but they removed a ton of the risk reward aspects when you get shit like bosses with private instances, no chance of losing your items to other players when dying in PvE carelessly, etc
They never forced players into groups, but that shit happened naturally for harder stuff and ganking because the world encouraged it. Even back then you had people running rune essence to others for runecrafting while they shared the profits
OSRS is essentially a single-player game with an MMO update structure and a community economy, with optional PVP and co-op. There's no power creep or obsolete content. Your gear will never be outdated. It's all permanent progression. If you play OSRS now, quit for 2 years and come back, then your gear won't be arbitrarily obsolete and you can progress as before.
it's defined by it's limitations
Every single action in the game happens in a tick that occurs .6 seconds. A fast attacking weapon might attack every 1.2 seconds, or 1.8 seconds. You can que up to eight commands in a tick, skilled pvpers can switch out all their gear setup in a tick.
In any other mmo if you go an fish you just do the shitty fishing animation and wait. You can do this in osrs but you can also break it by stacking commands every tick and abusing the game engine. It's fast but so shitty that the devs left it in. It's from the old days of games when engines weren't water-tight and broken shit was just adopted as
Any non-combat skill in any other MMO is just "watch this animation play out" but runescape has had like 20 years of development so by now there's a fricking list of minigames and methods for anything you could want to level. There's so much shit you can ignore the half of it that you hate and be just fine.
>Runescape is unironically the best MMORPG
runescape isn't even an MMO anymore with everyone playing ironmen, there's very little actual interaction with eachother at all and very little grouping, pvp killed etc, it's an MMO in name only
I strongly associate MMOs with autistic endgame grinds, players that don't speak to each other, and being a generally very copypaste genre. Not really an appealing list for the average person.
I assume the only thing you could do to fix this is have a miraculously successful MMO that doesn't just do what literally every other game does, to settle in a new image of the genre and drag in new players that wouldn't normally play MMOs to hopefully stoke the social aspect
they are unfixable, MMOs as we knew them were a byproduct of the internet at that time, and will never happen again. the sooner you accept this, the better
>MMOs as we knew them were a byproduct of the internet at that time
This. Twitter/facebook replaced the social aspect of the MMO, now it's just a min max gay fest.
and its now 'failing' with multiple forgotten old dead zones, dungeons, raids, etc, that demand attention based on player feels in a random year. All the while people b***h about doing the same things over and over in end game. I thought this thread was to fix MMOs? not copy what we already have?
You're missing the point, im saying WoW WAS successful because it didnt focus on endgame and rather most of the game was the levelling experience. WoW sucks now because it might as well be a lobby game where you just queue for arenas, m+ or raids
1 year ago
Anonymous
WoW sucks now for many reasons and they never truly focus on end game with always some leveling/rep grind which is basically leveling required. Why it was popular then doesn't matter for a MMO releasing now as times and expectations has changed. End game keeps a MMO alive, a good leveling experience sells it to single player focused player, nice for a sale but this is a MMO.
1 year ago
Anonymous
I’m surprised how end game can appeal to so many people. >you complete an in stance multiple times to get gear that will help you complete that instance easier. What is the appeal?
1 year ago
Anonymous
ah so you see, without having to focus on leveling content they can make many more instances, events or whatever else for end game, in a good and hopefully enjoyable state that people just want to play it? is the idea + a focus to PvP as
Into PvP
and you have a good, varied game that new players can join instantly without having to level likely alone joining a old MMO. I don't get the appeal of always needing to get something as I played cod4 promod for years just because it was good.
>levelling was most of the game
It took less time to level in WoW than the other big ones at the time, EQ and FFXI. WoW just felt better to play and was less punishing.
I've been playing something called Eldevin on steam with some buddies and while theres no 3way war, the worldbuilding and gameplay give me heavy DAOC nostalgia
MMOs are just bad games and holdovers from a time when massively multiplayer Online games were really novel rather than nearly every game having this feature included.
Minecraft alone blows every MMO out of the water and you can run your own server no problem.
I wish this was more popular, grinding in MMOs can be really relaxing and unless you go into autistic turn based JRPGs you're not going to find WRPGs which such a huge focus on character and gear progression. I dislike it now because I've replayed it so many times but if you've done the DK intro questline in WoW then you know that in and of itself it's a pretty good questline, thematically, the pacing, everything, if they were to release a single player game that was largely like that but with a few dozen hours more worth of content and scaling dungeons you could have players grinding forever.
I was originally intended to be an MMO but I think there was an issue with funding so the scale was toned down to a single player gear but it has a very generic MMO feel to it, which isn't a bad thing if you're into that kind of stuff. I tried replaying Return of Reckoning a while back but apparently there's a memory leak bug if you leave too many unlooted containers on the ground so the game breaks, now I can't be bothered to restart and loot/pawn everything to prevent that.
I hate the game because of stupid level scaling. If you explore the world too early, all zones will scale down and get locked to low level.
They should've gone with static levels.
My issue with maplestory is that it literally only has PvE content. The social aspect was HUGE and outside of party quests they did fricking NOTHING with it. In fact, I'm pretty sure at certain points the EXP gain was WORSE if you joined groups.
I miss PQs. They were actually worth doing to get the equips, and when they revamped em to make PQ set pieces which was neat. Nowadays it's just better to not do em.
I played a dogshit MMO called fiesta online. Higher level players would set-up a store in a zone lowbies were grinding so they would sell potions so they could grind longer but also buy things like leather that the mobs would drop so they could do their own crafting. At a set-time PQ's would pop and you'd see all the lowbies just vanish to do it and the PQ would be a zerg to the boss hoping enough people survive because it gave huge rewards. No fricking idea why modern MMO devs are so fricking stupid.
I love player run shops like in late 90s early 00s korean games. Sure you just afked with it up any time you werent playing, but it was cool doing what you said and selling a frick ton of low level potions and food out at a hunting spot with a markup.
1 year ago
Anonymous
FlyFF was the first game I played that did this and it's criminal that most other games never really ran with the idea.
Going to towns and seeing all the 100+ players with shops out, with descriptions and all was kino.
Instead we get games where we get to town and everyone is just idling, it's so fricking shit. Cities should have shit to do, maybe even moreso than outside areas.
1 year ago
Anonymous
It is definitely one of the instances of Quality of Life changes ruining the soul. Was finding a certain item a huge fricking pain in the ass with that system? absolutely. but the community felt a lot more like a community. Wakfu had the bag shop setup recently and it was great.
A lot of the magic in old MMOs was in stuff that was "wasted time". Finding groups, waiting for travel, shopping, etc all increased the community feeling of the server. You would start seeing the same players waiting on boats and get to know them, or find a good combat medic curing wounds waiting for a shuttle in Star Wars Galaxies. The reason everyone knew everyone on old servers was because it was useful, and people were out and about doing shit.
1 year ago
Anonymous
It is definitely one of the instances of Quality of Life changes ruining the soul. Was finding a certain item a huge fricking pain in the ass with that system? absolutely. but the community felt a lot more like a community. Wakfu had the bag shop setup recently and it was great.
A lot of the magic in old MMOs was in stuff that was "wasted time". Finding groups, waiting for travel, shopping, etc all increased the community feeling of the server. You would start seeing the same players waiting on boats and get to know them, or find a good combat medic curing wounds waiting for a shuttle in Star Wars Galaxies. The reason everyone knew everyone on old servers was because it was useful, and people were out and about doing shit.
If tax rates for trading posts were higher, player shops could still exist. Like you set up a shop and that shop could have a lower tax rate, so you could pass on that value to other players.
Like 50% tax rate means that you're selling something for 100gp and getting 50gp back.
But if player shops hat 0% tax rate you could sell for 75gp, make more money, and it costs less for players too so it's worth looking around if you're in town.
1 year ago
Anonymous
And you can develop this too, such as having taxes differ from city to city, or differ depending on the type of product you're selling. And having players be in control of taxes, so if a guild owns a city, they control taxes for that city.
1 year ago
Anonymous
>And having players be in control of taxes, so if a guild owns a city, they control taxes for that city.
AoC Mayors can do that
I guess the important question is: what would a good MMO offer players that they can't get from other games & genres?
MMOs used to have a near monopoly on being able to play and meet up with strangers online. That's mostly filled by other game genres nowadays, OR it's no longer such a popular draw.
What else can they offer?
Why does Guild Wars 2 feel like it has everything you'd want and does everything really well but doesnt feel right
The combat feels weighty but also sluggish, to the point where if you're melee and you dont have constant quickness you feel slow as frick, and why does every basic attack need such a huge windup
One of the biggest problems with MMOs in general is that they have to in some way compensate for lag. Lightspeed is fricking fast but it is not instantaneous.
>Lightspeed is fricking fast but it is not instantaneous.
And then you have to take in consideration incompetence, bottleneck and routing problems creating delay.
remove raiding and other 1% top player endgame only content
remove skill cooldown rotation combat
remove non person-to-person trade systems
Remove all trading and player economy. This is the other tough pill boomers need to accept. If your game has trading, it's p2w. If you think that's worth it, fine, just know that that's what you're advocating for.
>remove non person-to-person trade systems
Seriously. Frick auction houses.
Trading is fine, if the game becomes too transactional with everything being weighed by how much gold it's worth you can just raise the trading tax rate to make actually holding materials valuable instead of just dumping them and exchanging them for whatever mat you need. Then if you need mats for something you have to go get them yourself or pay up in gold which is expensive due to the tax rate.
[...]
Trading is fine, if the game becomes too transactional with everything being weighed by how much gold it's worth you can just raise the trading tax rate to make actually holding materials valuable instead of just dumping them and exchanging them for whatever mat you need. Then if you need mats for something you have to go get them yourself or pay up in gold which is expensive due to the tax rate.
region lock china and ban vpn's - if Ganker can do it so can devs
If you force me to put down a personal shop with my character or hit people up to barter in whispers like we used to do it back in the day I will fricking NPC vendor every single drop I don't need. No one has time for that garbage as a working adult.
soulslike combat
instead of managing cooldowns and macros and shit, it's stamina and mana
proper hitboxes and hurtboxes, no phasing through shit or lack of collisions
make mobility more important but also remove the shitty danger area boss mechanic, make players have to pay attention to the boss instead of staying out of circle
get rid of level scaling and the ability to solo 95% of the content. if you dont want to play with other people in a multiplayer game go play a different game.
Give solo players their own content so they keep playing.
Most PvE MMORPGs force solo players into group content via a groupfinder.
The solo player can't play in a group and the group player has to play content that's been simplified for the solo player. Nobody wins.
Those solo players might become interested in playing group content and make friends or join a guild. Group content needs to give better rewards.
They can still interact with other players but if they got nothing to do, they leave and your game slowly dies. Nobody who plays an MMO for the first time brings a group of friends with them. They all start as solo players.
A good mmo would structure the game to be a single player rpg that you play with other people. None of this focus on raiding. Make the game a single player rpg where you group up with other adventurers to accomplish things and thrive.
Every MMO can be fixed with full loot PvP.
Just adjust the power scaling a little so endgame equipment doesn't make you an immortal killing machine.
You are now enjoying infinite player generated content. Gathering and crafting becomes worth doing. The player driven economy suddenly works as there's constantly demand for new equipment.
Give players something to fight over and done.
osrs has shit in the wilderness but also "pvp worlds"
in pvp worlds the only safe areas are banks, strangely enough. It would be cooler imo if everywhere inside city walls were safe and people dueled outside of city walls.
I’m surprised how end game can appeal to so many people. >you complete an in stance multiple times to get gear that will help you complete that instance easier. What is the appeal?
in theory if the gameplay is good enough (or you have a community to show off your achievements to) people will just want any excuse to keep doing it
People don't want to lose progress. Full loot PvP has to be built from the ground up to be that. Equipment has to be expendable, better gear can't make you a god, and the community has to be large enough and agreeable enough to deal with organized gank squads. You can't just adapt an existing game to full loot PvP and expect it to go well at all. Even if it does work out, the expectations of MMOs have shifted so much that it would be niche, people think losing gear in an MMO makes it a huge time sink and even if it's not, you can't convince many MMO players otherwise.
So every new player will be ganged upon and looted to the fricking bone by higher level whales 5 minutes after joining the server? And never achieve anything above lvl 2, because every time he get a better piece of shit/more gold he will be assfricked and robbed naked by nolife lvl 99?
Plus, the economy will crash because high lvl will be selling mountains of low level stuff for pennies, making crafting of such stuff meningless while hoarding and gatekeeping high lvl and material to secure their own superiority?
Gee, I''m sure that new people will swarm that kind of game and it will last forever with constant stream of new players
hear me out" >armor slows people considerably >people can strip naked and drop everything and just run away easily >fill the world with caves and shit with a million hidden passageways >people can almost always dip and run >put skilling/smithing areas in all these dwarven ass caves so people can make more armor
one thing I always wish runescape did was connect all of their underground areas
So you average game session for new players will be something like:
1. Log in
2. Wander around for 5 minutes doing mmo stuff
2. Get fricking assaulted by some 123456679lvl american mastercard warrior which can one shot you
3. Have a choice: die and lost all your shit or run and lost all your shit
4. Decided to drop everything and run bareass to nearest cave or whatever.
5. Spend time grinding for just replacing the shit you lost
6. Leave the cave
7. See point 2 and follow another iteration of the same cycle
Ton of fun you have there with that game loop, pal. I bet people won't be able to restrain their excitement for being locked in neverending 'grind for shit just to loose it moment later and repeat that ad infinitum' cycle.
The whale could also die to other whales. Players would naturally group up to kill whales.
The risk of losing so much is not worth the reward at some point.
Most players would wear budget sets.
High level resources would be heavily contested. You would need to earn them first.
You can simply walk away and avoid fights that look unfair to you. Nobody likes ganking. Simply don't have it in your game.
Full loot pvp only works in a case like the Wilderness. The Wilderness is complete genius in game design and id be disappointed if the reward for venturing to such a dangerous area isnt worth it anymore.
This is already the case in RS. PKers are extremely easy to curbstomp, given the asymmetric nature of PvP, as they tend to completely neglect their defenses when ambushing normalgays.
The problem is, most players are complete herbivores with the reflexes of a slug, and zero risk management. They'll wander into the wildy with 50mil in ultra rare gear, refuse to manage their prayer, and cry like b***hes when they lose everything. Literal cattle.
They just want to chop wood and watch movies on their second screen.
The problem with OSRS is the mechanical skill required that you cannot learn outside of PvP and on top of that kills can be decided within a single tick. Runescape has one of the worst PvP systems out of any MMO which is why it has justifiably died off despite the multiple attempts to revive it
> the mechanical skill required that you cannot learn outside of PvP
Castlewars is only kept alive by a cult but Soul Wars and maybe LMS are decent pvp tutorials with actual rewards.
>that you cannot learn outside of PvP
False. You can learn basic prayer flicking as a noob doing slayer tasks and later in bossing. Killing all three GWD bodyguards solo with perfect flick cycles will make you a god. >kills can be decided within a single tick.
nonsense
>False. You can learn basic prayer flicking as a noob doing slayer tasks and later in bossing
The shit going on in PvP is decidedly NOT "simple prayer flicking". >nonsense
You can go to any singular PvP clip channels and see people get dropped within a singular tick.
I don't know who you're trying to kid, everyone is fully aware of how bad runescape's PvP scene is and how dogshit it is. There's a reason the most pvp people have done is edgeville f2p.
>NOT "simple prayer flicking"
same skillset >people get dropped within a singular tick
skill issue. Ambushes exists, RNG's a b***h, and prayer nerfs ags to a max hit of like 45.
1 year ago
Anonymous
You don't need to justify the dead PvP scene to me anon, I already know how dead OSRS PvP is and I'm sure that's the way you like it and will like it until you're the last person doing it
That just turns PvP into a gambling simulator where you're just chasing the high of winning a risk fight. You'll just have people buying their gear with IRL money to fight. However that's the only type of PvP unique to MMO's which can be fun, anybody who takes competitive games seriously would rather just play another genre to outskill somebody, without risk MMO PvP is always shit
I doubt whales are dumb enough to swipe in a full loot PvP game. Power isn't permanent. You can lose that $40 you spent on the best everything. One death and you respawn naked. Money stolen by another player. No refunds.
PvP should be the core gameplay and not some side activity that the player gets punished for. AoC won't have full loot PvP if they continue like this.
They're making a full loot PvP game for players that don't want full loot PvP.
-no pay to win shit, just cosmetics but nothing garish
-harder and better gameplay, something like dark souls combat
-make it really difficult to solo the game, you have to rely on other players to fight and trade items
-no main quest, you spawn in and go wherever you want to
-no class lock
-no fast travel
thats all i can think of, pretty sure i would bankrupt though
I'm working on a game like this now actually using microsoft playfab. It looks like valheim tier graphics though. Each main area has its own market so you have to actually move between areas. I'm not that creative though so I basically am trying to leech ideas from threads like these.
You can't fix the MMO genre.
The MMO genre was novel in the late 90s/early 00s when the idea of a shared world with hundreds/thousands of players connected at once was fresh and new.
It was a glorified chat room with avatars with terrible gameplay thrown in to keep people somewhat engaged.
No, he's saying it worked in the first place because the idea of meeting people online and playing a multiplayer game with hundreds, even thousands of other people was fun and exciting.
Novelty is an important aspect but gameplay did matter. The really popular MMOs like Runescape or WoW were designed to be addictive. Exploration, the constant promise of future rewards and frequent (but small) ticks of experience to give a steady sense of progression.
No. Gameplay is irrelevant. The draw of MMOs at the launch was the same draw that social media has now. It was a way to connect with people with similar hobbies online across the world.
Ask anyone that's been a longtime MMO player and their best memories aren't really what happened in the game, it's what they were doing with their buddies while in game. Without their buddies the memories are meaningless.
No, he's saying it worked in the first place because the idea of meeting people online and playing a multiplayer game with hundreds, even thousands of other people was fun and exciting.
This. Gameplay didn't matter because the idea of an online virtual world was novel. That is no longer the case. MMO's depended on novelty.
These guys get it. MMOs lost their novelty over a decade ago.
This is why MMOs suck. The entire point of raids in WoW was to try and facilitate these kind of moments, like a demented version of an online dating site. Instead, dealing with people is the absolute worst part of the game.
>Ask anyone that's been a longtime MMO player and their best memories aren't really what happened in the game, it's what they were doing with their buddies while in game. Without their buddies the memories are meaningless.
Yeah, no shit. The problem with modern MMOs is that there is nothing to do in the open-world but farm brainless mobs or gather like a bot. There is no danger, no stakes, no discovery, no conflict, no friction, nothing.
I remember being an annoying Thief in UO and having to sneak out of town because a group got together for the sole purpose of hunting me down. Shit like that would and will never happen in modern MMOs and if it did, the new audience of ADHD whiny homosexuals will complain until the devs gut their own game.
QoL features were a double edged sword in the end. I remember having to ride a 20 minute horse in DAOC just to meet up with friends, and having to ride that 20 minute horse every time we wiped.
Sure it sucked, but the world was an actual world you had to traverse. Party members were actual people you knew and befriended, now you just group find everything, teleport, and play with homosexuals.
Yeah, conveniences have all but killed the friction that made the world in MMOs feel alive. Now everyone is idling in cities, waiting for the game to find players for whatever instanced content they're running. Gatherings just hop on their flying mounts, pick up their mats and fly away. Traders just go to the nearest auction house, put their items up for sale for the whole server to see and log off. Modern MMOs may as well just drop the open-world and go for a mission based, hub world like GW1.
1 year ago
Anonymous
Yup. MMOs started as worlds but turned into lobbies to appeal to the masses.
1 year ago
Anonymous
Wish they'd just drop the open-world facade already. I know that modern homosexuals like to complain about how "the game isn't respecting my time", but the open-world in modern MMOs is the biggest time waster of all.
This man gets it. Same deal in EQ, you had to run through dangerous zones, risking XP/level loss and possible corpse decay (with your items on it) if you didn't recover it in time. Sure, there were classes that could give run speed buffs, port others to wizzy spires and druid ruins, but you had to actually interact with other players and usually pay to get those services. Necromancers corpse summoning spell, for example, consumed an expensive coffin every time it was used, so you had to pay a lot for that convenience.
Needs a dedicated team of passionate people who aren't curated by the marketing department. MMOs have a lot of problems, but one of the biggest is that they are way too high budget and aren't allowed to fail or innovate, so they are all the same and they all suck
End game is just a way to keep getting subscriptions money. It’s literally a scam. Any decent mmo would end at max lvl or after defeating the boss. You could keep playing by finishing by up any quests you haven’t completed or exploring a part of the world you haven’t looked into yet. It would be just like any single player rpg after you finish the game.
i can't speak for WoW but i can speak for Runescape, at least oldschool
one of the "hardest" challenges was to get a fire cape to use it on PvP, everyone would start engaging in PvP activities once they had enough PvE but now players just want some new boss with a new item they have to grind
those who have stayed in the MMOs sphere are pretty much playing slots, where they grind a boss like 10k times to get a roll at a loot table and see if they got the rare item, run to the market, sell all their loot and do it all over again, it's sad
>nobody wants to grind forever in a fricking game
what about the Black folk in osrs with 200m xp in every skill
getting all 99 takes fricking years and a 99 is only like 12m exp each
videogames are technically all waste of time. you get a sunk cost fallacy with mmos but they also put everyone's stats on the public high scores board and some people want to be at the top.
if forgotten korean mmo had a million people playing it there would be 2 or 3 that would spend 10,000 hours into it. Hell, you find these people occasionally anyway
I'm going to have to develop a copypasta for these threads.
TLDR: The MMO genre is dead and has been quite obviously replaced by shit like GTA Online, Warframe, Rust and other live service games that you don't consider MMOs. It doesn't need fixing because it sucks anyway
You can't, it peaked in 2000 with the Ruins of Kunark expansion for EQ and you had to be unspoiled by garbage like WoW in order to fully enjoy it. It's too late for the genre, even if you made an MMO that was similar to classic EQ.
You don't even need to make it a porn MMO, just make it about cute and funny little girls and then present racism as a good thing (Against fantasy races so you don't get in trouble with publishers) and that way you will scare off all undesirables and you don't have to worry about scaring off publishers either.
I think there's something inherently wrong with the genre when people get into or praise such games for their story, like isn't the point of the genre is supposed to be large-scale player interaction?
>Design a game around being played in single player, all content is soloable. >Make it open world like an MMORPG >You can see players in towns or when travelling, but not in dungeons or general activity/monster killing hubs while playing single player >Can invite people into your party to play multiplayer (Which scales difficulty) or trade >No general/global chat but game occasionally informs you of what other players around your level are doing (Ex. Player died to a goblin, their final words were "FRICK") >Certain dungeons/areas have players randomly joining your game to be allies or enemies >Occasionally host events where a large number of players are randomly matched up to either play a mini-game or fight a huge boss raid (Which is designed more for fun than for a challenge)
Would you call a game like this an "MMORPG" or at least close enough?
I'm starting to feel like the MMORPG genre needs adjustments to adhere to a modern audience and this is sort of the correct route to go. Basically Path of Exile or Diablo 2 where you can basically play single player but you are constantly reminded of the existence of other players, but you don't really have to interact directly with them unless if you want to.
>Design a game around being played in single player, all content is soloable. >Would you call a game like this an "MMORPG" or at least close enough?
Waht you're talking about is literally the online element of Dark Souls, and it's definitely not an MMO. Designing a game mainly for single players would be the cardinal sin of any MMORPG design.
>Waht you're talking about is literally the online element of Dark Souls
Dark Souls doesn't have an MMORPG-like open world, you can't see people in town or when travelling, the ability to invite people/trade/see messages on what other people are doing is heavily simplified, people won't randomly join you as allies unless if you have random invaders, and there are no large scale player mini-games/events that occur.
>Designing a game mainly for single players would be the cardinal sin of any MMORPG design.
The thing is that modern MMORPGS are already doing this, where 95% of gametime is done in single player (Either designed for single player, or was multiplayer and has been butchered to be single player), and then the last 5% is content where you are 100% forced to play multiplayer because it's scaled far too high to be done by a single person.
>Dark Souls doesn't have an MMORPG-like open world, you can't see people in town or when travelling
You see their ghosts when you're at a campfire, and you can wave to them and they can wave back.
No, you go play one of the hundreds of MMOs that are specifically tailor made for the casual shitter audience on the Asmon layer. All I'm asking for is one(1) game.
lmao, of all the problems that modern MMOs are struggling with, too broad an appeal to players of all skill levels isn't one of them
1 year ago
Anonymous
I don't know about that. Casuals ran WoW into the ground by screeching on the forums until everything the game had to offer was dumbed down beyond repair and easily achievable with 2 hours playtime/week. That's not what MMOs should be about.
Full loot PvP will do this. Don't punish people for griefing streamers, then casuals will be run off by the full loot and streamers will be run off by the devs not simping for them.
I liked EQ's PvP looting rules; full body loot except main hand/off hand weapons so melee weren't fricked, nothing in bags could be looted and a large portion of coin could be looted. So you had some protection, but if you wanted to benefit from your gear, you do so at a massive risk.
>Game has full loot PvP, but it's used as a form of punishment for griefers >Instead you drop your crafting mats and reagents on death >Randomly killing players increases your corruption stat >The higher your corruption stat the greater your chances of dropping gear on death >Only way to lower corruption is to complete PvE activities >If another player attacks unprovoked whilst corrupted they won't be corrupted themselves >If corruption gets high enough then you are marked on the map for other players to hunt you down
What do you think of Ashes of Creation approach to full loot PvP?
Literally Albion except they call it Reputation that gives you bonus defence the bigger the rep diff is.
If your rep gets too low you simply can't enter specific areas anymore until you earn more rep again.
Wanted systems are easily exploited.
It's full loot for everyone. Anything in-between is just unfair towards PvP players.
Pretty sure most PvP MMOs have some kind of reputation system so PKers don't take overhand. AoC sure loves its needlessly complicated systems.
I don't think it's complicated, grief and you open yourself up to full loot. There will be PvP activities that don't cause corruption, like attacking another player's caravan or attacking players out on the sea
That it will probably see many revisions as the game has only been player tested in a very short window on an extremely rough/early build. As for what you/they have stated the plans with it are, I think it sounds okay. But all that is also contingent on the project not being a scam.
>Let's not pretend that there aren't many more PvE only MMOs that come out and die as well.
PvE focused MMO's last significantly longer than PvP ones. That's how bad PvP is within MMO's. It caters to a minority of players and cannot carry a game, only supplement it at best.
Lol how many people are doing challenging pve stuff in mmos? Anything less is a glorified chatroom where you roll your face across the keyboard to win and playing house.
>Lol how many people are doing challenging pve stuff in mmos
More than anyone even considering doing PvP. No one but an autistic minority enjoys MMO PvP
1 year ago
Anonymous
>im not an autist because I like running the same activity 500 times
lol, lmao even
>But all that is also contingent on the project not being a scam.
I think the project is moving along fine for an indie MMO. Not giving them any money until the game is officially released though.
>no no, you see, no true PvP game has ever been tried before! If >I< could make the game it'd be perfect!
moron
You are still misunderstanding what I'm saying, Pvp should never be the sole focus, but it should always be there. If you want a direct example of this then look at UO
>Lol how many people are doing challenging pve stuff in mmos?
Not him, but EVERY single person in end-game is doing challenging pve stuff in an MMO. End-game in MMOs, while cancer, is primarily challenging PvE stuff, most games, even WoW and FF14, only have PvP as an afterthought because it's no where near as profitable as the gear treadmill and raid roulette.
This is primarily why a lot of people are filtered, the start of the game is braindead easy and nobody likes doing it, but you have to in order to enjoy the fruits the game. Or just quit, and do something better with your time. Even a PvP game would fall prey to this as the only balanced PvP would be end-game.
Players will always find ways to play around that. They should just introduce a Bounty Hunter that makes it easier to hunt down players the more corruption they have or just actual consequences like being only able to group with other corrupt players or only being able to join rogue factions/nodes with corrupt leaders
The whole about losing health and damage the more corruption you have is dumb
Make the gear less valuable and time consuming to attain aka crafting. Its like the UO system.
Gloria victis has loot on, but here is a point system. Up to 10 points total you can loot worth of gear off someone, a weapon is like 8 points. Characters usually carry multiple weapons on them for different situations. The full loot on occurs in the center of the world.
Not an MMO, but Hurtworld had a good system where you only dropped important loot if you killed another player. So if you died with say money or resources they would drop, but your armor and tools wouldnt. The person who killed you would then have full loot debuff on them for awhile so if you wanted you could run back and attempt revenge, get your resources back AND their entire inventory. I've never seen any other games implement a system like this, it worked so fricking well.
You can't fix it, MMOs were only good in their infancy, where most people had no idea what they were doing. There was actually a sense of adventure back then but you simply can't reproduce that nowadays, it's impossible.
Also old MMOs were very time consuming, the only people who could enjoy them to their fullest are teens or college students, but even if you were to give the current generation of them the old mmo experience they would ignore it in favor of current gaming trends.
I will respectfully disagree. PvP is what makes travelling not a complete bore and makes gathering tense. Being able to just kill some annoying homosexual without having to get their consent first is part of the charm of MMORPGs
The PvP focused MMOs that come out these days are complete trash at their core, they don't die solely because of PvP. Let's not pretend that there aren't many more PvE only MMOs that come out and die as well.
>Let's not pretend that there aren't many more PvE only MMOs that come out and die as well.
PvE focused MMO's last significantly longer than PvP ones. That's how bad PvP is within MMO's. It caters to a minority of players and cannot carry a game, only supplement it at best.
1 year ago
Anonymous
Like I said, they're trash at their core, even if they were PvE they'd still be dead. Also the game should never be focused entirely on PvP, but PvP should always be a constant, like how UO did it
1 year ago
Anonymous
>but PvP should always be a constant,
delusional
1 year ago
Anonymous
Yes. If you want go gather then you should also be prepared for the potential of PvP.
1 year ago
Anonymous
Yeah? Go check out Mortal and see how that worked out for them
1 year ago
Anonymous
Yeah, that game is shit at it's core, like I've been saying. It'd be shit and dead even if PvP was completely optional
1 year ago
Anonymous
>no no, you see, no true PvP game has ever been tried before! If >I< could make the game it'd be perfect!
moron
>hey we have this great platform for thousands of players to play together >I know we will remove any semblance of multiplayer and player interaction to appeal to bored housewives and dumb amarican mutts >hardcore players want PVP and faction wars and battles? >frick that make it all furry shit and teddy bears for the mentally challenged goody two shoes
Realize that there's more to the game than PvE and PvP. The ultimate goal of an MMO should be to have multiple games in it. WoW added pokemon in the form of battlepets and did fricking NOTHING with it besides adding in new pets. I don't know why crafting is always fricking neglected. The fact that there's no MMO where you could have multiple players face-off to see who can make the best piece of equipment is criminal. The only thing that has remotely captured this feel are mangas. Another major issue is that devs balance for the sake of balance, not fun.
Let it die once so idiots stop demanding every MMO has every feature from the 10+ year old ones. After that make one that's based on the "you're adventuring in the game world" feeling again. Make the scope as small as possible. If you notice some old time MMO player throwing around ideas on forums, ban him from the game.
I kinda like runescape when doing group skilling minigames, because it captures that feeling of workplace comradery in a low skill job, and I play it while im at work at my higher skill more isolated office job
The best part of Runescape is doing group activities. It's why people remember castle wars and stealing creation more than most parts of the game. It's also why MMO's keep failing when devolve into only doing instances in the form of PvP or PvE.
I haven't played FFXIV in many years but I still remember doing Hunt trains, treasure maps, and doing all the shit at the gold saucer. Don't remember much of my leveling experience or doing raids
pvp in mmos kinda sucks unless you put everyone on equal footing gearwise. otherwise you end up with shit like eso where you see 1 guy getting attacked by 40 people while being hit with multiple seige weapons and not taking any damage
The combat in runescape isnt why the pvp works, it is how the interactions are formed. PVP focus MMORPGs are garbage, as are PvE ones, there has to be a balance to where there are systems that reward people who arent risk adverse into going into the designated pvp areas, flagging themselves, or whatever system which is why the wilderness itself was great
PvP that is forced everywhere is trash. PvP with no meaningful reward or risk is just griefing and nothing else.
Focusing on either PvP or PvE is how you end up in WoW: a game that shot itself in the foot with its 3rd expansion and never recovered. PvP and PvE are supplemental. Why do you think classic WoW was so fricking popular and retained so many players? It wasn't the PvP and it certainly wasn't the PvE. It was the social aspect. It carried PvP and PvE. If WoW had ever bothered to add in multiple evergreen systems it wouldn't be as fricked as it is now.
>Buy WoW and make sure I'm not a publicly traded company so i alone have direction of it. >Immediatly fire the writing team and hire literal whos that show passion for rpgs and warcraft in general, yknow the neckbeards on reddit. >No more expansions, no more hype patches, it'll take a huge marketing hit but hopefully it will be worth it for constant updates to the world every month, even if just a zone, old or new being changed forever, no phasing, frick that noise. Deathwing wreaking havoc in Stormwind? Yeah you no longer have a capital there, it's now a max level questing zone deal with it. >Focus HEAVILY on customization, 50 choices per character per option, make it wild. >NSFW models and content, allow players to frick eachother in specific shady areas
>always hear about trannies in ffxiv on Ganker >been playing for 10 years and never seen a single mention of them
How the frick are you guys finding trannies?
>raided mostly with normal weebs >raided with one troony in 8 years >raided with multiple ironic racists >raided with one avowed nazi who was a regular on a white nationalist podcast >he even converted a Filipina girl in our group into a raging antisemite making her the 2nd nazi I've raided with
My personal experience would lead me to believe that FF14 is more based than not.
Yeah, took me a while to find out what that acronym is, that's definitely the site he was on. He said it was some paranormal conspiracy thing but I never actually listened to it.
People suck. People who play vidya on average suck even more than the average normalhomosexual. Making a game that involves multiple "gamers" as a baseline means the game will likely suck.
The truth is they were always bad, nostalgia of being a kid and having imagination when you first played it shielded you from the bad combat, lack of content, and usually toxic money practices by the devs.
Take away the glasses and the “good old days” and play any mmo like you’ve never played a game like that anymore, and a mentally well adult would find the game awful.
Can't be done. The online infrastructure is too advanced and easy to access.
MMO's peaked during the nascent years of public access to the Internet for a reason.
It can be done but the focus isn't going to be about PvE or PvP but the journey. It's going to have to be a game where no one can realistically ever hit end-game, like an infinite treadmill, but with content always dropping so no player can poopsock it and encrypted so no one can datamine anything. I don't think it's realistic at all to be worth the trouble. Shitting out WoW but with a new coat of paint is as much effort as people are willing to do.
>Take genre that has "Massively Multiplayer" in the name >Focus on single player content for 99% of the game >punish people for partying while trying to tackle quests >punish people for deciding to tackle in-game monsters as a group, by splitting their EXP >introduce moronic mechanics like 'XP stealing' >everyone is an individual whose existence is a source of either frustration for other players or outright apathy
>WhY DID THE GENRE DIE
it's a real mystery, innit? better put in more quest chains, that's "Content", right? our board of directors who don't play video games said so, because it takes time to complete. anything that takes time must be content, isn't it? they can buy skip scrolls from the cash shop if it bothers them.
what I'm getting at is frick IMC and frick Nexon too
I think the main problem with MMOs these days are the constant Endgame is the main focus, like everything before the endgame is pointless, where as in Ultima, EQ or WoW, it was a journey through this large open world; A lot of problems modern MMOs have is a lack of player agency, everyone does the same quests to get to the same end result with little to no deviations. This endgame focused game design results in shit like Path of Exile, Genshin, other modern Grinding games. the real game doesn't start until you've already sunk 50+ hours in. Everquest was the peak of exploration in an MMO
Then everyone quits after a week because there's nothing to do. The MMO playerbase isn't little Timmy playing an hour then doing his homework any more, and developing new, explorable content takes time.
This is why MMO's need to focus on having more than just instance based PvP and PvE. You need to give players so much to do that they cannot reasonable do it all between the patches and you do that by having other content such as housing, skilling, crafting, mini-games, and all sorts of systems and events. FFXIV is on the right track but they treat these things as side content, not part of the main game so they never really get fleshed out as much as they should.
>Little timmy isn't going to reach end-game in a week
That's my point, and the fact that little timmy isn't playing MMOs any more. People who are sitting in the jungle starting zone a week after release are not the main playerbase of MMOs any more. >What you're doing is thinking exactly like the executives who ruin these games think
Maybe, in that we both understand a game won't survive running on a loss.
I don't see the difference between a boring repetitive crafting grind and a boring repetitive dungeon one. If by content you mean actually new stuff, again, development has it's limits.
The fundamental problem is devs can't put out fun, new content faster than players can consume it. You're acting like they're just choosing not to.
>You're acting like they're just choosing not to.
By only having two systems with any sort of depth, PvE and PvP, that's literally what they're doing. They've regulated crafting and gathering to literally just be "buy items from the auction house and press a button" or "click on object". FFXIV has quests specific to the crafting/gathering but ultimately it's the same thing, just hidden because people just use macros to accomplish the same thing. Crafting and gathering are always supplemental system to PvP and PvE content. It's never its own thing. OSRS is the closest you get but skills in that game are just supplemental to its combat system.
Little timmy isn't going to reach end-game in a week. If he's encouraged to go through the content with his friends, he'll only play with his friends, which means he'll spend more time on the mid-game content, he'll enjoy it more, AND he'll have a better memory of the game and want to stay for the end-game content by the time he gets there.
What you're doing is thinking exactly like the executives who ruin these games think. They only think about the people who are going to spend 500 hours in end-game, but never the majority of players who have to go through 200 hours of hell to get there. Then the game dies, because the people who reach end-game in a week will never be satisfied, they'll grind through all of it in a weekend while the majority of your players are still poking orcs with sticks, alone, in the jungle, until they get bored and quit.
I think the overemphasis on 'length' or 'content' has killed the genre more than anything.
I don't care if it takes me 300 hours to reach end game if it's 300 hours of bashing rocks together by myself in the jungle. I would rather a game take 50 hours to reach end-game if it's going to be just that. Games just forgot that they need interesting content to pad out the journey from start to finish because everything is made by committee, now. And it's impossible to explain to a board room of suits that your game is about interacting with other people and forming friendships and bonds in this journey through a magical land when they want to see stats, figures, hard-numbers on something that isn't supposed to be the same experience for every single person. They want to see QA hours for every possible path a character can explore and be able to justify how long it would take to feature-complete the game.
It would be like if an MMO company like Nexon developed a game like Minecraft. There's a reason they didn't: Because you can't show a linear path from start to finish in a game like that. And they live and die on stats, charts, sales instead of making a good game people want to play.
Unironically give endgame players a reason to do "low-end content" with newbies so the newbies could grow, I've only seen this work with DDO, Mabi and XI/XIV.
Once again, citing guild wars 2 for the millionth time in this thread. If you go to low level areas in guild wars 2 your base stats are reduced to that area's level. You keep the bonuses from leveling like your extra abilities and stuff, but you are brought back to that area's level and can get the map completion there.
Endgame as a concept has to die. The only endgame content that should exist is pvp, guild vs guild pvp to be more specific. This makes people group up, and it makes people waste materials as an outlet to prevent the economy from collapsing.
Guild Wars 2 does this very well. >XP is decent and every level beyond max gives you a mat needed for highest level crafting >100%ing maps of any level gives you good rewards, including cash shop shit (come on, you know fashion is the true endgame) >Mid-tier crafting mats sell for a good amount on trading post >Some of the low-level areas are the most visually interesting or have some really comfy spots
The general is very unfortunate. The EU discord is very nice, fairly autistic from when I played. But that's most Ganker and /vg/ servers. I think at least half of the members were either genuine women or gay though. It had that vibe.
It's a lot of gay and trans, but the EU side is way more chill because they don't post in the general. It's the US side that's just disgusting and doesn't even play the game anymore, they just say how much it sucks.
GW2 is -okay-.
The combat is very basic and the itemization is basically non-existent aside from cosmetics.
It's a great timewaster, but nothing in it feels like it's worth investing time in. I do like the concept of the world, though, as in, quests that just pop up around the zones from time to time and everyone can just go in and out of them, together or alone.
If they really wanted to make interesting, they should've made it so many of those quests were contested. As in, players could pick a side, and you'd get better rewards based on how even the competition was... But only if you won. Throw in some of those quests allowing PVP and now things are interesting. If carebears don't want to PVP, they can just not join the PVP quests.
The game really needs completely different itemization though, it sucks.
"easy"
Just make sure none of the content can be data mined, and next make sure guides are useless. Where if you get good at something its because you can react properly to things, and not because someone posted a guide online.
Next up, gear. Forget the idea of wow style gear. Gear should be 99.8% sidegrades. If something has more def, it has another downside, speed or weight or whaver. This way all content is always viable and not a slow crawl towards high lvl areas with low lvl areas becomming obsolete.
It would be nice if we had an algorithmic approach to content. where you couldn't datamine it and could, in fact, edit any of it without someone being able to reverse-engineer it unless they had their own copy of the server software.
I don't think that you can because of the mentality that MMO players have. Everything is a meta to be solved, and people don't so much play the games as just follow instructions in wikis. I know it's not just MMOs that are affected by this, but given the multiplayer element, it seems like they are the genre most likely to dead-end because of it.
I don't know what the solution to this issue is, or if there is one. If there isn't, then I think MMOs are done, since they can only aspire to be soulless chore-fests with devs just intentionally shaking up metas to keep people engaged
>Everything is a meta to be solved, and people don't so much play the games as just follow instructions in wikis.
I blame MMOs that enforce strict skill builds, like grabbing a busted, strong, selfish attack would sound good, but then you would have to drop party support and spend a lot of gold or cash shop nonsense to grab the right skill.
>fantasy MMO >very low magic >imagine lord of the rings movies >if you know any magic at all you are basically a god so it's reserved for legendary lore characters >light survival elements like eat/drink/rest/extreme weather conditions >early medieval technology >grunt gear is chain mail, basic open helmet, spear, broadsword, shield >knights get chain mail, breastplate, plate helmet, shins, crows beak, flail, 1.5 handers and shield >4 life paths(classes) >deeply religious monk/nun(males can specialize into a priest or crusader, females the abbess) >scoundrel(can specialize into a prostitute or bounty hunter) >conscript(starts as grunt, can become a town guard or knight) - male only >adventurer for hire(murder hobo and grave robber, get caught and it's your head) >different life goals and story per path >basic class trinity: monks and nuns offer spiritual support, conscripts are the front line, scoundrels and adventurers are of low moral character and looked down by society, everybody needs them, nobody would admit it) >horses are a thing, if you can afford them, same as wagons >no random loot, you pick a weapon and specialize with it(learning new moves) >nuns and monks write chants and study scripture to improve their abilities >quests are tailored to your life path >monks and nuns are hired for philosophical tasks and advice >scoundrels steal shit and spy, combat is rare >conscripts do army shit like menial labor for their superiors and training >adventurers have to hunt down contracts in the underworld >dungeons, caves, ruins are a thing all over the world >5 man party >full collision so blocking a hallway /w shields is a valid strategy >AAA visuals and animations
all full time pvp mmos I’ve ever played have been terrible
it always ends up with roaming gank squads, or the stats in the game make up so much of a difference that you can’t even retaliate outnumbering the person 4 to 1
when we looked up the amount of hours or real money required to be on the same playing field we just gave up on the game(s)
Yeah it's just gank central. This is why extraction/battle royale games are so popular, because you're matchmade into a game where everyone is on the same page. If you can do anything in an mmo, and one of those things is pvp, then chances are if someone comes after you, you're just getting ganked.
Remove duty/raid/dungeon finders.
Remove non-pvp cross server interactions.
Remove instant fast travel
There. No motherfrickers have to talk to people again and communities will form. Lack of instant fast travel means players will get the sense that the world is an actual world and not a series of zones with loading screens.
Gameplay wise I would try to move away from tab targeting and rotation gameplay.
Remove instancing.
Remove 'roles'.
Make content in the WORLD that 2-3 people can enjoy doing or that 1 good player can carry a woman or little kid in.
Relaxing activities. The best content Dragonflight has is a fricking soup event which is the first group thing since Timeless Isle but it sucks pretty quick since it is the only thing instead of one of dozens on a rotation.
When you remove instancing you immediately at a life span to any server you join, because servers can die out, where instance/sharded server structures will be filled as long as there exists a dozen of people still playing the game.
How does server merging work if you have player housing, auction houses/trading posts, etc. Most game servers just die and players just have to leave their server to transfer to another one. It's not a good experience.
Merge the auction houses/trading posts. Not sure why this would be a problem. Player housing is more problematic, true, but you can just do what FFXIV does and have additional "wards". Alternatively just don't have player housing since those very rarely have gameplay effects anyway. FFXIV's houses are all empty because people just decorate them and then rarely return since there is no reason to.
How does server merging work if you have player housing, auction houses/trading posts, etc. Most game servers just die and players just have to leave their server to transfer to another one. It's not a good experience.
PLayer housing is such a fricking meme anyway. An actual cash shop grift to play Barbie's Dreamhouse with mismatched furniture pieces you found in some spider's cumhole or spend $40 for a complete set of furnishings for your in-game house only your guildmates will ever see.
An actual waste of time. A proper townhouse or shared living space would be far better for socialization and make it where playing dollhouse at least has some kind of conversation piece. Instead, 'player housing' almost always means that people own some moronicly limited amount of physical space in the digital world, also defeating that purpose too.
I still say Timeless Isle was the best content WoW ever did exactly because of that. You could participate in almost anything regardless of your gear, the loot was always relevant for everyone, there was a ton of variety, PVP was built into it, there was still some linear progression with your cloak leading to the monastery, etc.
It was literally the best thing WoW ever did and I don't think it's close. The whole game should've been designed like Timeless Isle was.
by deleting 95% of all current mmo players and making sure they do not come back to the genre, and then making an mmo that isn't driven by profit and chasing player counts but making a long term non dogshit world.
>make game too hard to do almost anything solo to encourage teaming up and more importantly, making friends you can plan to be able to group with in the future >focus on exploring the world, and questing >no instances, all content is in the world >raids should be something you do after you get to max lvl but is not the focus of the game, just the conclusion to the adventure >endgame is open world pvp
I've only ever played FFXI, WoW, Guild Wars 1, and FFXIV.
I played WoW the longest, but FFXI felt like it got it closest to what I wanted out of an MMO.
Heavy emphasis on working with others to do anything in the game, even leveling. No holy trinity to pigeon-hole people into a role. Traversing the world took real-world time.
I've heard it's completely changed at this point, but I definitely have very fond memories.
BIG world
No leveling
No handholding
Wanna fast travel? You need to find specific place or class for that
Can solo anything if you want >B-But
World has changed boomie, spergs won
The game itself needs to be fun. MMO games by design are often “get to max level so you can do the real content”.
We are in the age of Tik Tok, Roblox, and Battle Royales. Zoomers want to just instantly hop in a game and play. No one wants to do something boring for 50 hours to get ready for the REAL game.
as opposed to now where shit's so good right?
lmao
all you stupid homosexuals do is weaponize the report system anyway. Instead of just flaming a shit healer you get their whole account perma'd by getting all your homosexual friends to mass report.
People will be "toxic" no matter what the devs do, but the status quo only arms the worst people in your community with the MMO equivalent to sending an assassin to someone's house.
Listen, 'stop being carebears' is good advice but you have to accept that for social parts of an MMO
I wouldn't have stuck NEARLY as long with classic WoW back in the day if I weren't laughing my ass off at Barrens chat. Yet the same people who say not to be carebears would say that barrens chat was toxic and removing it for people's feelings was required.
What's griefing about someone saying 'Black person' in chat?
What stops you from typing /ignore dumbgay?
Go on, I want to hear this. I want to hear the ultimate explanation as to why I can't actually properly socialize with other people, which does in fact include getting mad at them because it's a social game and it's not a requirement to get along with anyone.
You can stop pretending to be an idiot, now.
You're on Ganker arguing that the only way people can reasonably want to interact with others is if they are trying to grief or hide behind "muh speech"
what if, idk, they just want to talk? freely? is that a concept you can understand?
1 year ago
Anonymous
>the only way people can reasonably want to interact with others >someone saying 'Black person' in chat?
The griefer reveals himself
1 year ago
Anonymous
how is saying Black person griefing?
you're losing it lil bro, get some air
1 year ago
Anonymous
>greifer dodges call out
You said reasonable interact and immediately before you were saying you want to be able to call people Black folk. You're obvious a moronic edgy griefer who advocates as little moderation as possible so you can frick over people in-game - it's obvious as frick
1 year ago
Anonymous
i'm a different poster you stupid homosexual
answer the question, how is saying Black person griefing?
do you know what that word means?
1 year ago
Anonymous
griefers are based
griefers forced us to play with our friends and group up
censoring/banning griefers forces us all to be "nice" to homosexuals who deserve to be griefed
1 year ago
Anonymous
Someone saying something extremely rude and offensive and you responding in kind or ignoring them is a reasonable interaction, yes. It is, in fact, how most humans interact.
Source: You're doing this right now with two different anons.
You know what's really unnatural and results in lots of resentment? Having some untouchable third party regulate all interaction to ensure happy-time fun space. And you agree, Otherwise, you would be on reddit.
1 year ago
Anonymous
>Having some untouchable third party regulate all interaction to ensure happy-time fun space.
The absolute state of gaming.
1 year ago
Anonymous
OH MY GOD WORDS, I SAW A WORD THEY'RE GRIEFING
I mean you could just ignore it but you think it's reasonable to ban all discussion altogether
>the same people who say not to be carebears would say that barrens chat was toxic
I think you're confused
for me the best approach is BDO where you can literally discuss how the holocaust didn't happen in world chat and nothing happens to you
I think that's just because the GMs aren't around at all but pretty much just let people say whatever. The only time someone should get a temp ban is for literally spamming someone or following them around everywhere (which ironically, XIV doesn't ban people for lol)
MMOs should be hardcore PVP only.
Carebear raiding is gay as frick and for literal boomer morons. There's plenty of PVE singeplayer/co-op RPGs like Elden Ring for you addled smooth brained morons.
Its been proven time and time again only PvP keeps a game fresh and alive.
lmao how are all those Hardcore PVP MMOs treating you buddy? Let me guess real hardcore pvp mmos haven't been tried right? Maybe if you guys weren't always eating your own tail by driving off new players you'd actually have a genre.
>MMOs should be hardcore PVP only.
I somewhat agree on that, but most of the players that are into that sort of stuff just gravitate towards BRs and Fighting games these days. They offer a better experience, bigger playerbases and more competitive opportunities.
If you look at what an MMO does uniquely, that no other game genre really does, it is pretty much only raids or more specifically 8-10 to 25 man PvE content that is unique to the genre.
>fresh and alive
I like PVP and even I know you're completely talking out of your ass. The PVP community is a huge minority, and has always been.
The ONLY full loot, full PVP MMO that stood the test of time even slightly is EVE Online, and I'd argue even that is more because it has no competition and is a niche genre/setting. And even EVE was forced to go F2P.
>listening to Ganker's opinions >about MMOs, no less
Ganker wants a single player game with online chat and ERP cooming capabilities, not an MMO experience
Give me an MMO where I can pick a blacksmith as a class with an in-depth crafting and gathering system and be able to take my class to PvP and PvE and when I'm doing I can go play in-game farming sim like Runefactory or chill at the bar with a VRchat system or play ultimate fishing simulator.
People just need to face reality: no one is going to do an MMO right because it's too expensive.
>couldn't buy a house and make a farm on it >Getting max level in crafting didn't even mean anything because they immediately nuked crafting equipment >The PvP was incredibly busted >Economy was fundamentally a pyramid scheme
Man, New World is one of the worst MMO's I've ever fricking played
Even outside of that the economy is fricked. It was hard to make gold but due to the tax system whoever was in charge of setting taxes will be able to get more gold than they could reasonably spend in months. On top of that only like 2-3 cities were ever worth capturing. In my server the first guild to get everfall kitted themselves out with that blacksmithing set and snowballed from there. All of the officers were rich as frick
if you picked anything other than Blacksmith I would say BDO (be prepared to shit out cash though). You can 100% be a fisher main and just do that.
Other than that there's New World, I guess. But you know... new world lmao.
Like on launch maybe you could do that but right now even though the game is dead I think you'd still have to compete with 24/7 farming multibot accounts. I'd seriously advise against that.
>You can 100% be a fisher main and just do that.
What fishing content is there? Any PvP? PvE? Other content or systems? Or is the only thing you can do is literally just fish?
I'm working on an mmo idea right now and here is the current design:
Start at the top floor, there are town floors and dungeon floors. Each town has its own independent market, think albion online.
Must traverse down through the dungeon, floor by floor. After each floor there is a camping floor where you and your party can prepare for the next floor, buff yourselves, eat, etc (think monster hunter eating buffs type thing). You also decide which way you are going to go from that camp floor (up/down/back to the top).
If you die in a dungeon floor you lose loot (can vary like albion online).
I'm wondering if players should be allowed to move both up and down floors, or only move downward, at which point when they hit a town floor they can teleport back to the top floor with whatever loot they can carry to bring back to the first town market where most trading is done.
I'm actually making it right now with microsoft playfab. I need a reward mechanism for actually going down floors. I'm thinking having a guild wars 2 overlevel system, where you need higher levels to make progress in higher level areas, but if you're in a lower level area your stats get level capped to that area to keep things engaging in those zones.
I was thinking players could carry large teleport crystals which they can activate by getting to lower floors which they could then sell, and by selling those crystals you can basically buy teleports to go lower (but you will have to have made it to that area first anyway). Same with delivering mail to lower floors.
I don't know if it should cost anything to go back up floors, or you have to actually travel all the way back up. If that's the case then it wouldn't really be different than any other mmo without fast travel where you manually walk from area to area. I don't know what's best.
So basically that tower from sword art online. Honestly sounds boring and I doubt this concept will get many players. Your proposal has nothing unique about it. Most of what you describe is just "like albion online" which isn't a great game anyway.
Yeah or danmachi. >Most of what you describe is just "like albion online" which isn't a great game anyway.
Well the biggest complaint about albion online is the fact that it's a mobile game. Albion online has zones where some are pvp drops and others aren't (like runescape).
So basically that tower from sword art online. Honestly sounds boring and I doubt this concept will get many players. Your proposal has nothing unique about it. Most of what you describe is just "like albion online" which isn't a great game anyway.
Why not just, ignore that dungeon then?
this and the chat room conversation makes me question what happened to people's agency? Just don't participate. You see someone being a prick, you don't have to give them the time of day.
>make super hard solo dungeon >so hard that only a poopsocking sweatlord streamer could do it >Mystery reward for completing is a room with Black person Black person Black person on the walls >streamer banned >I laugh
Then don't play the Black person Black person Black person dungeon. You act as if there aren't thousands upon thousands of maps and game modes people have created for other games that actually have thought and effort put into them.
I'm amazed by the amount of people in this thread claiming that changing the focus from PVE to PVP is the only way to save the genre, even tough every single MMO that tired to do that is dead, dying or became a niche with less than 100k players.
The amount of people that want a hardcore PVP MMO can't sustain a single server, even less a entire game. Anyone that gives a shit about PVP would rather play a PVP game that focus just on that and nothing else.
The way to save MMOS isn't PVP, but adding more sandbox elements and promoting socialization among players that isn't just direct confrontation. PVE is way more suited to the task than PVP ever was and the fact there isn't a single big PVP MMO left is the proof of it.
There's this new MMORPG preview on Youtube called Chrono Odyssey that has Elden Ring / Dark Souls combat and environment. But people around the MMO websites are already saying that it's bad since it's from South Korea and it has the worst kind of microtransactions.
Ping issues will keep them from ever being competent action games so you're stuck with doing shit you can macro in two seconds for 2000 hours. It's the same realm of autism as speedrunning, but with no skill. Considering the mmo community scorns anything that tries to do something better, I don't think you can save it. Especially now that the glue holding it together are fricking ERP paypigs.
All mmo sucks because its the same shit >Spawn, do scripted tutorial, suddenly world is going to end you're the chosen on >Go to main hub/city now every quest is just some moron fetch quest, collect 100 leaves repeat >Want to ride a horse, pay 9.99$ >Want to get better armor, go beat this boss with 99999999 health or pay 9.99$ >Want to unlock this cool magic, oops look like u didn't bought our 20$ expansion dlc winter map
The only good mmo i can think of is not a mmo and it's dark souls
What I'm getting from this thread, and every single time we've had this thread, is that most people don't WANT to play an MMO. They never wanted to play an MMO.
Most people in this thread got into MMORPGs because they wanted to play a single-player RPG, but the AI just wasn't there at the time for them to have a believable adventure that could look remotely human-like enough.
So they played the games made to be played as a team by themselves. Eventually, all MMORPG companies catered to them because this experience is pretty braindead easy to make. Just take out all the group elements and make all the content simple and linear.
The question I have to these types now is: Why are you in the MMO thread? You have your single player RPGs that have pretty believable AI right now, why continue to make your miserable suggestions that only ruin the genre more by insisting everyone else who plays the game is evil and should be kept in a bubble away from you while you play the multiplayer content with what are effectively bots?
I want the MMO in Moonlight Sculptor (They turned it into a dogshit mobile mmo that already shut down lmao). If I can't play the game as a crafter I don't want to play it. My only hope for this is ashes of creation and I KNOW that shit is going to fail hard
Imagine a game where you can be almost anything. In the story the MC is a sculptor because he wants to craft things to sell to make as much money as he can. He finds a class book and advances into a rare class and eventually unlocks a unique/legendary class. A large part of the story focuses on him doing his class quests and his class abilities are a main focus of the story. He's proficient in combat as well due to his class bonuses, though he plays more as an assassin due to his main weapon being a chisel that wants to land crits on weakpoints. Early on there's a lot of fleshing out of a story like the MC goes to a river he the river overflows and washes away all the people who were chilling by the shore and he sees another player who's a fisherman doing his class quests IIRC. The fisherman played more like a control class due to being able to use their hook to reel or fling people. I think he could still do other crafting/gathering but doing so means you won't have the unique class bonuses so it'll always be better to go to a blacksmith for plate gear instead of making it yourself but learning it allows you to polish the gear for temp buffs so there was still a point in branching out.
Class based crafting is interesting. Some games have profession systems but they are completely horizontal, and you also end up making garbage that no one wants.
>He finds a class book and advances into a rare class and eventually unlocks a unique/legendary class.
This seems kind of cool, like what if in order to unlock skills they are tied to drops, you can't just pick one. If there are 12 different professions but getting a drop for even a single one takes 10 hours, that would be kind of cool, although people would probably complain. Making them untradeable would be cooler too.
1 year ago
Anonymous
>This seems kind of cool, like what if in order to unlock skills they are tied to drops, you can't just pick one
From what I remember the skills were tied to class quests and from then on he had to train them so they would increase in proficiency. I think each class was different, like mages could learn from other mages but their powerful spells were in grimoires/spellbooks and had to be gotten through other methods like dungeon crawling.
There's an entire genre of these type of stories. There's one where the MC starts off as a florist and the way he ends up unlocking his rare/secret class is by cataloguing all of the flowers in a zone until he's left with 1 more that's hidden and I think he only found it by basically dying and finding a portal as a ghost.
Big issue with all that is dataminers. MMO's need that mystery to make it feel exciting.
1 year ago
Anonymous
Well mmo's can have server side code that is explicit to the server right. You can only mine client side stuff. Also having things skills attached to drop rate has value on its own because it suddenly becomes rare.
>most people in this thread
I disregarded the rest of your shitpost because of this hilarious level projecting. Not everyone is like you sperg. Not even close.
>I want to play the game solo
then play a single player game you fricking idiot. thanks for linking me some shithead youtuber who is equally as moronic.
playing in a continuous shared world is not playing solo. Accept it or keep crying like a b***h that people like what you don't like, I couldn't care less.
You are awkwardly asocial but then you play a social experience wondering why you're forced to be social. cringe.
[...] >here
why are you linking some youtube video you brainless NPC? make your own opinions you moron.
because you're not worth the effort when it's been addressed countless times. Face it, you're just filtered by the bare realities of any MMO. Otherwise, you would be playing ffxiv or retail wow, there's no further argument.
I leveled to max level in guild wars 2 the weekend it came out and I did it solo, and only ever played the game solo. There was literally zero benefit to playing with people, if anything they just slow you down in guild wars 2.
its unfixable
computing has fundamentally changed and everything is datamined and figured out and posted online on day one
if i had to come up with a solution it would be to have more randomly generated elements so people are forced to work together in the moment to figure things out because its not documented anywhere outside of the game
This is the true answer. Datamining and the hyper emergence of social media/youtube ruined everything. Everything is solved and minmaxed on day one and even if you don't, you'll fall behind and be playing by yourself, which basically means you're not playing an MMO.
Unless they make players sign an NDA upon playing a game that prohibits sharing any form of info about the game OUTSIDE of it, it'll never happen. And even if something wild like this was made, people would just break the NDA anyway. It's brainrot. People unironically stole the fun away from themselves and you can't get it back. Multiplayer games are now either all skill, or nothing.
>solo levelling >instancing >breadcrumb trails >NPCs dickriding the PC >EZ fast travel >etc
All of these were touted as 'advancements' to the genre despite making the act of playing them unrewarding, antisocial and brain dead. There's really too many of these shitty little things to even list, but the general idea is an attempt to expand the player base. There aren't enough people willing to play a real MMO to cover the costs of making one now, and so there will never be another one. Just loads of watered down shit for attention deprived morons. People might say that sort of content still exists in the end games of most mmos, but if it's a good thing that the endgame is challenging and requires teamwork and thought, why not make the whole game like that?
By not pretending every mmo needs to be on serparate shards/servers keeping everyone isolated instead of just having a few central high performaning servers in redundancy with proper culling techniques.
>Animal Crossing fishing >Harvest Moon growing >VN NPC story relationship stat growth >Inject basic co-op combat system with swappable skills and equips >Not ugly artstyle >No campaign just character stories and exploration tied to different characters >??? >Profit?
Is there already something like this? It amazes me that the non-battle content in so many games is worse than freeware VNs. These kinds of systems seem like content you can safely code nearly entirely separately and add a lot of satisfying content for little effort. The hardest part is making a lovable combat system but a lot of games have that but nothing to back it up. Probably the worst is when a game adds a good feature but destroys it by trying to drip feed it to you and lock stuff behind payments because the devs couldn't settle on charging for expansions/cosmetics
You need to force them into parties. Anyything that isnt a rat should destroy your anus so hard that you are forced to actually go talk to some other players to progress. All the issues MMOs have are from trying to appease to a bunch of casual homosexuals who whined that "well what if I dont have time to find a group give me solo content". No auto queues, no instances, no global chat, and everything should basically two shot you if you arent with friends.
and no fricking fast travel. walk your ass places.
>How would you fix the MMO genre?
Flood the cash shop with countless thousands of lewd outfits, items, emotes, and also badass outfits, items, emotes, for both demographics of people playing my MMO. Also focus heavily on story-related content and plot, and don't give a shit at all about PvP late-game content because those sweaty losers who enjoy that shit don't matter to me.
>NOOOOOOO! YOU CAN'T GIVE YOU PLAYERS THE OPTIONAL PERSONAL CHOICE OF SPENDING THEIR OWN PRIVATELY EARNED MONEY ON ITEMS THAT ARE NOT ESSENTIAL TO THE GAME ITSELF! NOOOOOOO! STOP! I'M A POORhomosexual AND IT MAKES ME MAD THAT PEOPLE SPEND MONEY WHEN I'M SO POOR! AAAAAAAAAH! SAVE ME HOBOMAN!
This gayboy too young to remember when games would give you options in game. any developer that spends time making assets not to put them in game as so earnable reward and instead cut them out to charge you extra is not worth your time.
Slippery slope. We now know it's not a fallacy but a reality. Games like WoW and Runescape have single handedly destroyed themselves by implementing direct P2W gold buying and they starting off with a non-offensive cash shop.
This is the worst bait I've seen. The RS3 website counts EVERYONE interacting with runescape. This means it adds in RS3 players, OSRS players, RSC players, forum users and people chilling in the log-in page on clients. That number is currently 142.7k. Factor in people usually play mutiple clients, at minimum 2, it's more like 80-90k. Factor in 30-40% of these are bots you're looking at 50k genuine players
>game puts all the coolest items in the cash shop >now anything you earn in-game is worthless trash >no point in actually playing and therefore yes the game is shit
cash shop is fine, it's inferior, but it's fine, but ONLY IF you can earn cash currency by playing the game and interacting with it's core gameplay loop.
You can't. MMOs need the right community to work. WOW stabbed the MMO genre with it's streamlining. Social media and the mainstreaming of gaming gave MMOs the killing blow.
Before a technical fix can be applied, you must first fix the people themselves. You can apply whatever measures to force players to be social , deter solo player, bring back that sense of discovery, etc but all of it will be meaningless if you consider that today's MMO players are severely oriented towards getting as much "value" out of their time, hardly any desire to meet and be social with randoms or to enjoy the journey rather than the destination.
There's no point of forcing parties if most will end up entering these games with their preestablished friends or communities, because why bother taking a risk with strangers.
The core of many if not all issues that exists in the genre stem from the people themselves and their inability to accept any other way.
MMO discussion is desiccated. No other genre is this dry.
Always the same talking points >grouping >journey >publishers want money blah blah >everyone copied wow blah blah >social media >endgame >kids these days aren't interested >I'm 30 and I have no time >meaningful >if only a developer would do this one thing >nostalgia >classes, races, raids >trinity >the internet died in 2007
Just like the man says, no problems, only solutions.
I still don't get it. I'm getting to old for all these memes you homosexuals expect people to know.
1 year ago
Anonymous
You got into an argument with a he/she and he/she sent you a selfie for wiener sucking in ff14 or something, idk dude I'm an oldgay trying to keep up myself.
Here’s how you make a good MMO
1. Make a huge single player open world rpg.
2. Make the game have a huge focus on inter-player trading, kind of like path of exile.
3. Super autistic level of build variety.
4. Let players have customizable and programmable npc party members that are copies of other players and/or story npcs, and plan around everyone playing the entire game single player with npcs but let them play with eachother if they want.
I would go back in time and massacre everyone at Blizzard, and everyone who contributed to online gaming
Imagine
>wow never took off
>the interent was never monetized by sweaty dudebros in Silicon Valley and remained a niche hobby to post online
>games remained a think for children and enthusiasts
Imagine how the world would be now if that were true...
I'm pretty sure that even if you destroyed Blizzard entirely only the first bullet point would be the case
The internet was always going to be colonised. That's like imagining North America not being settled.
I would also murder everyone who tried to push "muh realism" in sports games
nfl blitz enjoyer?
FFXI would still be the king of MMOs if WoW never came around
Nothing came close to ffXI besides everquest
Internet getting lobotomized by US government and corporations was inevitable.
It was inevitable. Someone else would have done all of that.
How is WoW at fault for that.
If anything Blizzard was late to the game with their shitty store.
You should blame something like Diablo 3 or Bethesda for horse armor instead.
But Ultima Online and Runescape predated WoW.
such a brave opinion, you deserve a medal
Wow anon you are so over unoriginal opinions, here's your medal for adding useless sarcasm to the conversation
you're fuming, b***h.
>wow never took off
>mmos fall into obscurity
the problem with MMO is the same problem in society. Eventually it becomes endgame players, which are basically the 1 percent, you need to incentivize the rest of 99% to not only stay but to collect materials the problem is most new content is always for the 1%. leaving the 99 shit outdated content.
The MMO problem is that MMOs are subtractive in nature. The devs create a full game, and then keep taking away until players are basically a 1/16 piece of what would be a "full" player in any other game not played by dimwits. Here's a good example of how this might work.
>Tetris
>Except every player is 1 individual block that falls from the sky per game
>All you get to do is fall from the sky once and pray that the other people weren't fricking moronic
>With individual skill more or less out the window, the whole game devolves into the other players accusing each other of being moronic
>No one is having fun, but everyone keeps playing because they "like the community" or "enjoy the teamwork"
>or if they're really a Neanderthal, they'll even say they "enjoy the gameplay."
Who hurt you?
I dunno that sounds like it could be fun.
I think that should be done more, like I remember World in Conflict's multiplayer doing something similar - instead of traditional RTS multiplayer 1v1, you had 1v1 factions but each was a team controlling each section of the faction - infantry, armor, aircraft & artillery - and had to coordinate with each other. I think you also had one player acting as a commander.
You just described only a quarter of the problem.
The biggest problem with MMOs right now is that they're made for group content but every single MMO on the market trains players in a bubble on quests that are done solo.
So a game has maybe 500 hours of content, but you have to invest 150-200 hours before you hit the part where you're playing primarily with other players and have to just magically know everything there is to know about using your character in a group despite the fact the game trained you for 150 hours by yourself.
To put it in your analogy, it would be like if there was a multiplayer tetris game, but the first 100 or so hours was just normal tetris until you hit the "real" part of the game, which is what you described. What you described isn't even a bad idea for a Tetris game, it's just not worth playing a different game for 100 hours until you get to it. Thus why MMOs now routinely fail when they try the solo quest chain bullshit.
The solo quest chains to progress really kill me. Old games where exp was mostly grinding monsters were a little repetitive but you could bump into anyone at any point and group up. Now with quest lines if you aren’t on the same quest one of you gets jack shit for helping out the other so there is no incentive unless you play in lock step.
Hell I don’t know if it is still the same but years ago trying out FFXIV I couldn’t even throw a buff on a passer by. That was like, a staple of the Ragnarok Online community - walking around and tossing a blessing / agility buff and a cure on some dude who aggroed one too many poison spores. But we wouldn’t want anyone to work with their friends to power level each other or anything. No sir!
>But we wouldn’t want anyone to work with their friends to power level each other or anything. No sir!
You see what you're describing is antithetical to what other anons are describing they want in this thread which is games with good singleplayer content that are just made better from being co-op.
Like imagine if elden ring had a million people running around, and people could "power level" each other like you said by gangbanging every enemy with like 10 guys. That doesn't seem like a better game.
>Like imagine if elden ring had a million people running around, and people could "power level" each other like you said by gangbanging every enemy with like 10 guys. That doesn't seem like a better game.
If Elden Ring was as you described, it would have 10 times the monsters to compensate. that's how RO worked, and it was an excellent game for something as simple as click monster -> he dies
What would happen is trains of people would form to go from enemy to enemy and the most optimal way to play would to follow these trains to just gangbang enemies as fast as possible, as fighting enemies with traditional fromsoft combat would be inefficient by comparison.
The combat would then be completely unappreciated.
Has any game ever done something like, the more people hit an enemy, or are near an enemy, the stronger it gets (like an enrage mechanic), and the stronger an enemy is the better the loot? I feel like this *could* work, but I don't think I've seen it.
I mean multi player in monster hunter is basically four hunters gang banging one monster and that series is doing well.
But more reasonably what the frick is the point of playing a multi player game if there are going to be so many restrictions on who you can play with and how? No, that person is too high level so you can’t group at all or if you can no one gets anything from the shit they kill. No, that person didn’t do the pre-req quests and has to go do a bunch of shit solo before they can join in. No, your group doesn’t have the proper number of tanks healers and damage dealers so it won’t work.
The whole point is to actually play with other people. If I want to do a full party of priests and banish the frick out of a bunch of undead or just out-heal an encounter who cares?
The ideal mmo that people actually have in their heads is an isekai world with no actual players in it other than yourself and the people you want to bring with you.
No one actually wants an mmo with strangers, they want a living breathing world, and currently humans are more alive feeling than npc's. The issue is the other players existing immediately demands that there be restrictions that make these games suck.
>they want a living breathing world, and currently humans are more alive feeling than npc's
>99% of the player base is literal NPCs
Think we found the problem.
Ask how I know you're young and never played SWG, City of Heroes, or old WoW.
SWG was so based
Knowing a “weapons guy” that could just make better shit at the time cause he had played since day 1, and then sharing that connection with my friend was such a based feeling
Probably the closest I’ve ever felt to being in another society
Vanilla kinda had the same thing where I knew full time alchemists who got satisfaction from looking for mats for consumables, making them, hearing that they got used and being told what loot their consumables helped to acquire
That all went away when blizzard made professions more casual so people had enough time in the day to make all their own shit and raid
Yeah I think a lot of MMOs frick crafting up because 99% of everything you can craft is completely worthless. You just craft the current max level gear/food/potion/whatever and nothing else.
That's why it has to be tiered and start from the bottom, kind of like terraria or albion online.
Eve Online did it well since everything in the game had to be crafted and much of it required even basic materials a fresh account could gather. It really sucks that Eve is mostly a spreadsheet simulator ridden with bots otherwise.
>Yeah I think a lot of MMOs frick crafting up because 99% of everything you can craft is completely worthless
This was the downfall of DAOC. Before artifact (legendary) weapons were introduced, the best gear in the game was player crafted. Game slowly went to shit because it tried to mimic WoW.
>No one actually wants an mmo with strangers,
Funny, this is my exact opposite experience.
EVERYONE wants an MMO with strangers, everyone wants to be that validated important member of a functioning group. The problem arises in that strangers are buttholes and the game discourages you from talking or meeting with anyone, because there is nothing you can do with them/get from them unless they're very specifically interested in partying with you.
Much of that is on the players, for being buttholes and BRs, but a lot of that is on the game for being so immense inflexible. Inflexible games mean that players get anti-social attitudes and realize that's the best way to play: with their discord friends and no one else.
>EVERYONE wants an MMO with strangers, everyone wants to be that validated important member of a functioning group. The problem arises in that strangers are buttholes and the game discourages you from talking or meeting with anyone, because there is nothing you can do with them/get from them unless they're very specifically interested in partying with you.
Yeah, that's what I said. No one actually wants an mmo with strangers.
>Yeah, that's what I said. No one actually wants an mmo with strangers.
That's the opposite of what I said. People want to play with strangers when they select an MMORPG to play because it has MMO in the name, they know what they're getting into.
It's the devs who make inflexible systems and hostile environments for partying who make it a miserable time.
No they don't anon. If those strangers were ultra intelligent npc's like sword art online or something like that they'd prefer that every time, because it means they could be the main character. In mmo's you aren't the main character and are always benchmarked next to everyone else.
>No they don't anon.
> In mmo's you aren't the main character and are always benchmarked next to everyone else.
My man, you're describing the exact kind of hostile environment for partying that I'm describing and you don't even know it.
Benchmarking is a side effect of min-maxing, which is a requirement if you want to tackle serious content. those strangers, themselves, don't hurt anyone by being stronger than another person by simply being in the same party, on the contrary; this is how the vast majority of people playing MMORPGs learned to play their class: they had someone else teach them.
At least, that's how it used to be. Now everyone follows a guide because devs made it a requirement for every class to be the same way to tackle the "Actual game" (read: the stuff at the very end), people don't want that, they would rather team up with someone else and complete objectives on their own terms, but MMOs now don't allow that.
You're just describing a single-player game, which is what most people HATE about modern MMOs. People want to socialize in these games. They don't want hyper intelligent NPCs, they want that sporadic touch you only find with another human. Sure, some are obnoxious and really dumb, but that's just dealing with any player, right? Those SAO NPCs aren't going to randomly tell you about the time they caught their sister fricking the family dog.
>The solo quest chains to progress really kill me. Old games where exp was mostly grinding monsters were a little repetitive but you could bump into anyone at any point and group up. Now with quest lines if you aren’t on the same quest one of you gets jack shit for helping out the other so there is no incentive unless you play in lock step.
Or worse, there are 1000 quest lines in the game and even if you ARE in the same stage, it makes no sense to do them together because you're essentially stealing each other' content, slowing the group down.
Or it's just outright bugged like ToS and TERA where partying up HALVES your xp.
>but every single MMO on the market trains players in a bubble on quests that are done solo.
Basically every quest in guild wars 2 is a cooperative one, other than the instanced ones.
Just because some of your skills are purposely designed to buff people around you doesnt mean you actually are working together.
Well what would working together mean then.
I'm literally 30
Doubt it but even if that is true you've still never played those during their peak times.
It had nothing to do with the games that they worked out like that. Back then people were playing mmo's for a ton of different reasons. Co-op survival craft games didn't exist, skype wasn't really a thing yet, moba's weren't really a thing yet, battle royale wasn't really a thing yet.
All of those things exist now and the people left playing mmo's are not playing them for the same reasons they used to, because most people moved on. It never had anything to do with the quality of those games, because mmo's by design are jack of all trades masters of none.
I hate endgame being prioritized so much. Why on earth would I want to grind the same dungeons and raids over and over again just to get gear to get better at running the same dungeons and raids I had already cleared many times?
The part of an mmo I like the best is it being a multiplayer rpg game. Exploring the world and questing with others is fun. Why can’t other mmos just follow this way instead of mmos treating the lvling process as a tutorial that lasts hours to get through to finally get to the “actual game” of raiding?
it's because games are meant to be completed. "endgame" is just tedious grind for no life losers who are afraid to quit
>I hate endgame being prioritized so much. Why on earth would I want to grind the same dungeons and raids over and over again just to get gear to get better at running the same dungeons and raids I had already cleared many times?
It should be because doing the said raid and dungeon over and over again because it is fun. Monster Hunter for example has basically operated on this principle with varying success.
Basically this. MMOs these days only have the diehard players in them, no noobs or casuals anymore. Runescape worked because it had every type of player
FF14 is the inverse though. It's 99% second life casuals and 1% tryhards.
Make MMOs about the journey again, not the destination.
is spot on, but it's something a bit deeper than that. Society as a whole doesn't want a slow journey through a very relaxed, carefree hangout anymore. They want instant gratification in everything it does. Social media is the apex of instant gratification at the click of a button, and it's hard for a game which requires a bit of build-up and work in order to achieve full satisfaction to compete.
MMOs dying in general is just a metaphor for the death of the best times of the internet. Fixing it would require people who aren't spineless and finding a niche that doesn't care that it's a niche.
>Make MMOs about the journey again, not the destination.
I know what you mean, but that's not how it works. The game design doesn't matter if everyone just datamines the game with wikis and rushes to the finish line in the most mathematically efficient way.
The gaming community back then was what made MMOs great.
There is this story that RO was initially little more than a chatroom with characters. While I don't know how true this is, it is definitely what my experience playing it was like. I spent more time chatting with complete strangers than actually play the game. Not memes or shitposting, but actual conversations. You can't program this into a game. This is purely about how people interact with each other in such games. Modern online media and communication platforms have ruined people in this regard.
Guild Wars 2 in it's current modern day state should be a beacon of what people should follow, not WoW or FFXIV
>boring combat
>checklist "exploration"
>everyone is some flavour of homosexual or troon
>endgame areas are spongy as frick to encourage player zerging
>instead of well designed quests you have a couple endlessly repeating event chains
The only good thing it has is mounts and that's more a novelty, undercut by how much grinding you need to do for them.
Eh, not really. GW2 would make a better singleplayer game than an MMO, given its lack of meaningful/satisfying progression (masteries are not meaningful/satisfying progression).
I'd recommend checking it out again if you haven't, while masteries might not be the best solution, I definitely love how I can show a friend the game and we can just coop through it despite me having thousands of hours in it already because it still rewards us both for our time. Also doing away with quests is a blessing, they aren't fun to do.
That does nothing to alleviate the troon problem.
>b-but it's fun with friends!
kys
>an mmo is fun with friends
Anon, I don't know what is wrong with you
NTA but watching paint dry is fun with friends. ANYTHING can be fun with friends, it's not an argument.
>ANYTHING can be fun with friends, it's not an argument.
This is unironically why MMOs suck now. People are gay and we don't wanna be friends with homosexuals.
the "fun with friends" thing has weight but you're playing a multiplayer game and complaining it's bad that it's fun with friends?
How the frick is it supposed to be fun then?
>complaining it's bad that it's fun with friends?
I'm not complaining that it's fun with friends. The point is most of us don't have any friends anymore because everyone is a troony now.
I don’t make friends online anymore because I’m not a lonely adolescent starved for friends to play with. My few real friends and myself all have jobs, partners, families, and hang out by visiting each other or short term multiplayer games. Most MMO players in their early-mid 30’s are mentally unwell and are generally sad people, not who I want to hang out with.
If you aren’t a big autist or a mentally ill person you are too normal to play MMOs
Because if your game is ONLY fun with friends it's a dogshit game. If I can't play solo with stranger or simply solo and it be fun it's a bad game. "Fun with friends" is not a pro or a con - it's meaningless
"fun with friends" should mean just that, nothing more and nothing less. So tired of people acting like that means a game is good or could make a bad game better.
nta but the goal isn't to make your game ONLY fun with friends, it's to make it ONLY fun with other people, who may become your friends.
If you add every barrier in the world to make it where it's not fun with other people, why would anyone play your game? You're describing something that's a feature, not a problem.
>it's to make it ONLY fun with other people, who may become your friends
MMO, more like MKUltra to integrate you into the troony open globo homosexual bug eating shit frick. I'm a frick a shit this world is so gay.
>no you HAVE to play with the troony spamming uwu and the Hispanic disconnecting every 5 minutes
go play wow or ffxiv if you want that. What you're talking about is not the solution, it's the problem.
The problem with saying MMOs are fun with friends is that literally any fricking video game is fun with friends. That selling point is pointless. If MMOs can’t create communities of unrelated players coexisting and having a good time through in game events by devs or player run, it’s not an MMO
>go play wow or ffxiv if you want that.
Those games are MOSTLY SINGLEPLAYER. You spend almost ALL of your time in single-player content like quests with only a teeny, tiny fraction ever seeing any of those people.
If your problem in general is you're playing the massively multiplayer game with other people, I have to ask what the frick you expect out of an MMO? Or rather, what do you think is wrong with them now? You can do almost all of the content in 14 by yourself, and in fact; you can even party with bots for the ultimate forever alone experience.
confirmed to have never played either, unless you consider finishing the MSQ playing the game (it's not)
kek, here we go again, someone tries to convince us the MSQ, which comprises 98% of the story and is where almost all players are currently residing, is not the main portion of the game.
Go on, oh wise one, look at this chart, and tell us how the vast majority of players who are not at the end-game content, don't even have the token raid mounts, and are playing 300 hours of MSQ aren't playing the content of the game but the maybe 100 hours of end-game raids, of which requires completing the MSQ and there are a tiny fraction of people who can participate, is.
>b-but what about the turbocasuals!
literally who cares? 98% of the ffxiv playerbase doesn't actually play the game, we know.
>No no, they're not TRUE players playing the TRUE game because (excludes 98% of people playing the game because they are 'casuals')
ok so if you admit only 2% are at end-game, you can admit the end-game isn't the actual game for the intended audience.
Thanks, bud
you're talking about people who started late and never caught up, I don't know what to tell you. Among players who have been subbed from day 1, even the most casual finishes the new patch's msq in a week, then has nothing but FORCED MULTIPLAYER content to do for 6 months.
what you consider the "actual game for the *snort* intended audience" is totally irrelevant, I'm telling you what the experience of players that actually play the game is. It's what you say you want, and it's there, buy a msq skip and go do it.
>you're talking about people who started late and never caught up,
>I'm telling you what the experience of players that actually play the game
>the ones playing the game not at end-game don't count
So the majority of people who play the game don't count because they are not TRUE players of the game. (true players being the ones who play it the way I do)
I don't get this obsession MMO players have with excluding most of the players because they aren't "hardcore" enough. It's not like you're playing a high-skill high-stakes game. The difference between you and them is 200 or so hours of straight MSQ grind. So what if they want to play the game at the pace they like? Are they less important now than the 2% of players at end-game? They both pay the same sub.
Anyway, this is why MMOs are dead. Thanks for illustrating my initial point in the most benign way possible.
what point are you even trying to make you drooling idiot? We're talking about you, not ffxiv's playerbase. It doesn't matter what 98% of the playerbase does because YOU can go play it, and play your "forced multiplayer" game with a bunch of other likeminded individuals. So why the frick are you here complaining instead of playing the games that are, like it or not, made with discord trannies like you in mind?
>Among players who have been subbed from day 1,
that's not the majority of players.
>what you consider the "actual game for the *snort* intended audience" is totally irrelevant
frick you, your raid grinding is unfun and actually irrelevant in the grand scheme of people who play this game.
raidgays are a cancer. always have been. you blow through 80 hours of content in a weekend, act like that's casual because you poopsock in your mother's basement, and demand no one else play with you because the *nee hee SNORT* FORCED MULTIPLAYER!!!!!!!! in your massively multiplayer game like you somehow didn't know that would be a requirement.
FFXV is sixty bucks, that's' like six months of subs, you could go play that instead.
>I don't want to play solo
>I also don't want to play group content
behold, the moronic troony homosexual. You don't know what you want, you just want to complain.
lmao imagine having no friends
>lmao imagine having no friends
I don't have to. Most of my "friends" are either in jail, dead, or now a woman.
It's kind of the peak of amusement park mmos, but that isn't really what most people want as their ideal mmo.
>250 character limit
>oppressive chat suppression
What's the point of skimpy armor if I can't even erp properly in game.
this is actually another part that I find so fricking weird in modern MMOs.
You have characters who can subclass as literal dancers and prostitutes dressed like this but there are ZERO social features in any of these games. I think Marriage is the most I've ever seen in an MMO as the closest you and someone else can get, and even modern MMOs don't call it marriage.
Fricking why? What's the problem with your social game having social elements in it? It's not like you have to show characters on-screen fricking. But you can't even lay in the same bed with someone you married in-game. You can't even kiss someone you married in-game.
And yeah I'll get some vedditor scream 'coomer!' over this, but the point of MMOs is human interaction, except most of them strip out all human interaction. I can't even call someone a c**t in a bar without a magic sky daddy intervening and banning me.
God, I wish Service for You was as useful as Bragi.
same
players optimize the fun out of a game if they're encouraged to.
People forget that the min maxxing bullshit only became a problem when the goal of a game was end-game, where you HAD to be your best in order to play.
min-maxxing in these games always existed, it just wasn't a problem if you weren't ever going to be at end-game and instead just chilling with friends doing mid or late game stuff. Who cares if you do 60 extra damage there? It only becomes a problem if the focus of the game are places where that 60 extra damage DOES matter.
Players will always strive to find the fun in a game that the devs put there, the devs simply forgot what fun is.
Depends on the class you're supporting. To a Hunter/Sniper, Service is a godsent.
It's unfortunate, but I think it's a product of the modern age. Players will optimize the fun out of a game, and now they can find anything they need without ever having to stop and ask.
This really set in for me when WoW Classic launched.
WoW classic had the problem of being a solved game, and it wasn't a perfect game by any means, remember The Barrens?
You can't take WoW's playerbase, who lived and died on the wiki, and expect them to play like they just set foot in the game for the first time. A new game has that advantage, though.
Every game is a solved game now.
That's not true at all. Look at a game like Demons Souls, there are STILL new builds coming out for it. Both silly and perfectly viable.
Isn't that just Diablo? or Vindictus?
Yeah players optimizing the fun out is a huge problem.
Some anon said above that they'd want free multiclassing, but if you don't separate entire characters by classes then people will just gravitate towards all just picking the "best" class, instead of just focusing on a single character with a single class and then just doing their best within that class.
The reason is I think people want to hop in and play a game and not live a second life (memes aside) kind of game.
Second Life itself is just a bunch of degen boomers and if people want to hang out with randoms online there's discord or VRChat (also for freaks)
>The reason is I think people want to hop in and play a game and not live a second life (memes aside) kind of game.
They can still do that. The best MMOs I played as a kid were when I had little computer time. I got to level 200 in RO just playing an hour a day.
MMO as a concept is archaic and is only kept alive by millennials and GenXers that got hooked as kids
Actually the mmo genre is healthier than ever but blizzard has warped people in to not accepting anything but the "if you're not first you're last mentality" there are multiple well populated mmos going right now, this is truly a golden age but mmo players are all braindead mono gamers so another game doing well is not a sign of health to them it's a sign of a threat that sends them into a mental spiral
>this is truly a golden age
If you're a troony or a homosexual, yes.
>buzzword buzzword buzzword
and a ching chong nip nong to you too
>Actually the mmo genre is healthier than ever
>all the populated MMOs are just second-hand themepark WoW garbage with worst servers than WoW
lol
>Actually the mmo genre is healthier than ever
lel the only people who still play this game are goldfarmers who RWT their shit and bots
>Fix the mmo genre
Considering most popular MMOs these days serve as little more than troony containment zones you'd probably have to get rid of them first.
Final Fantasy XIV cope thread?
Yep. Final fantasy xiv cope thread.
I've played WoW for 15 years. I've played xiv for thousands of hours.
One community goes "Just try it lmao", the other goes "here's a bulletpoint list of reasons to play it! dont skip! dont boost! but the story is outdated!"
FFXIV is only decent because it's barely a fricking MMO. Just do the story versions of everything and unsub since you've already seen the best parts of the game. Or stay subbed for the second life ERP shit if you're into that.
The gearing really isn't interesting enough to justify the endgame treadmill, and it actually makes me hate the game less than other MMOs since I never get wrapped up in grindy bullshit when I come back to it.
G'raha Tia my beloved
You literally can't, the problem is the players not the genre itself. Look at WoW 15 years ago compared to the WoW classic re-release. Same game but the players were way more invested into the journey and exploring the world and communicating, you knew the people around you and guilds were more than a place to just find a raiding group.
Wow Classic? Almost everyone was trying to speedrun the game, the raids were the only goal and it was all anybody cared about. There was no investment in the journey, the world, the people. It was just maximizing dps to do a raid on repeat
I would have the entirety of FF14 and include the pvp content of GW2. To keep things mildly interesting between expansions. Also a badly needed graphical update.
MMO is a boomer genre
Runescape is unironically the best MMORPG there is, even now with OSRS being the world's largest shell of its former self.
More games unironically need the genius sorts of design runescape has
What makes it genius? Never played.
You can do literally anything
>literally everything is just click then wait
>What makes it genius?
Playing it as a child because it was free.
There's nothing good about it, it's a shitty checklist game with abhorrently bad gameplay.
World design and quest design, as well as the travel based progression. The wilderness is something that will never be emulated, nor will the old ways of "SCRAMBLES" when your character died be emulated either. OSRS is a shell of its former self because of the lack of such things.
The problem stems from the general gameplay. but that doesn't suddenly damn the bones of what is there. Its a very strong foundation that devs are too afraid to use because devs are way way afraid of games with these risk factors, and ultimately the biggest problem with MMOs these days is that they are all milquetoast and risk adverse, on top of an increasingly sweaty playerbase. Even the very game that had these foundations had fallen into these trappings.
Its part of why I called OSRS a shell. Some of the bones of what it was is there but almost in name and presentation only. You never really had to group in Runescape, but they removed a ton of the risk reward aspects when you get shit like bosses with private instances, no chance of losing your items to other players when dying in PvE carelessly, etc
>You never really had to group in Runescape
therefore, was never really an MMO, just a browser RPG with an auction house
They never forced players into groups, but that shit happened naturally for harder stuff and ganking because the world encouraged it. Even back then you had people running rune essence to others for runecrafting while they shared the profits
OSRS is essentially a single-player game with an MMO update structure and a community economy, with optional PVP and co-op. There's no power creep or obsolete content. Your gear will never be outdated. It's all permanent progression. If you play OSRS now, quit for 2 years and come back, then your gear won't be arbitrarily obsolete and you can progress as before.
What keeps it from getting obsolete
it's defined by it's limitations
Every single action in the game happens in a tick that occurs .6 seconds. A fast attacking weapon might attack every 1.2 seconds, or 1.8 seconds. You can que up to eight commands in a tick, skilled pvpers can switch out all their gear setup in a tick.
In any other mmo if you go an fish you just do the shitty fishing animation and wait. You can do this in osrs but you can also break it by stacking commands every tick and abusing the game engine. It's fast but so shitty that the devs left it in. It's from the old days of games when engines weren't water-tight and broken shit was just adopted as
Any non-combat skill in any other MMO is just "watch this animation play out" but runescape has had like 20 years of development so by now there's a fricking list of minigames and methods for anything you could want to level. There's so much shit you can ignore the half of it that you hate and be just fine.
>Runescape is unironically the best MMORPG
runescape isn't even an MMO anymore with everyone playing ironmen, there's very little actual interaction with eachother at all and very little grouping, pvp killed etc, it's an MMO in name only
>OSRS being the world's largest shell of its former self.
Don't more people play it now than ever before?
That's thanks to mobile. I meant more of the systems in play. The wilderness is an empty shell, and pve deaths are completely trivial
The game is like 50% bots. I know every mmo has bots, but osrs is fricking overrun with them.
Roll back the groomer updates in osrs.
I strongly associate MMOs with autistic endgame grinds, players that don't speak to each other, and being a generally very copypaste genre. Not really an appealing list for the average person.
I assume the only thing you could do to fix this is have a miraculously successful MMO that doesn't just do what literally every other game does, to settle in a new image of the genre and drag in new players that wouldn't normally play MMOs to hopefully stoke the social aspect
they are unfixable, MMOs as we knew them were a byproduct of the internet at that time, and will never happen again. the sooner you accept this, the better
>MMOs as we knew them were a byproduct of the internet at that time
This. Twitter/facebook replaced the social aspect of the MMO, now it's just a min max gay fest.
Stop doing leveling, put all focus into end game.
Into PvP
Literally the opposite
play a single player game then
yea that's a good idea as well
WoW was successful because levelling was most of the game, with friends it was even better. You felt accomplished no matter what level you were
and its now 'failing' with multiple forgotten old dead zones, dungeons, raids, etc, that demand attention based on player feels in a random year. All the while people b***h about doing the same things over and over in end game. I thought this thread was to fix MMOs? not copy what we already have?
You're missing the point, im saying WoW WAS successful because it didnt focus on endgame and rather most of the game was the levelling experience. WoW sucks now because it might as well be a lobby game where you just queue for arenas, m+ or raids
WoW sucks now for many reasons and they never truly focus on end game with always some leveling/rep grind which is basically leveling required. Why it was popular then doesn't matter for a MMO releasing now as times and expectations has changed. End game keeps a MMO alive, a good leveling experience sells it to single player focused player, nice for a sale but this is a MMO.
I’m surprised how end game can appeal to so many people.
>you complete an in stance multiple times to get gear that will help you complete that instance easier. What is the appeal?
ah so you see, without having to focus on leveling content they can make many more instances, events or whatever else for end game, in a good and hopefully enjoyable state that people just want to play it? is the idea + a focus to PvP as
and you have a good, varied game that new players can join instantly without having to level likely alone joining a old MMO. I don't get the appeal of always needing to get something as I played cod4 promod for years just because it was good.
>levelling was most of the game
It took less time to level in WoW than the other big ones at the time, EQ and FFXI. WoW just felt better to play and was less punishing.
Just don't have levels, make a game where you can click to kill things
and then not make it an MMO, make CoD again
Just put MMO players in prison. Give them daily activities. Reward them with dresses, etc. for good performances. Pity dresses for the rest.
idk man, been playing new world and it's quite nice. if RuneScape was a good game basically
>noko and sage go in all fields
>YouTube thumbnail
>maxresdefault.jpg
>MMO discussion
Bot thread. Just like the games you are discussing.
I AM FORGOTTEN!
I've been playing something called Eldevin on steam with some buddies and while theres no 3way war, the worldbuilding and gameplay give me heavy DAOC nostalgia
MMOs are just bad games and holdovers from a time when massively multiplayer Online games were really novel rather than nearly every game having this feature included.
Minecraft alone blows every MMO out of the water and you can run your own server no problem.
Convert more of them to single player games.
I wish this was more popular, grinding in MMOs can be really relaxing and unless you go into autistic turn based JRPGs you're not going to find WRPGs which such a huge focus on character and gear progression. I dislike it now because I've replayed it so many times but if you've done the DK intro questline in WoW then you know that in and of itself it's a pretty good questline, thematically, the pacing, everything, if they were to release a single player game that was largely like that but with a few dozen hours more worth of content and scaling dungeons you could have players grinding forever.
Kingdoms of amalur kind of scratches that itch for me, but yeah there's something about mmos that is just really relaxing to play in a solo capacity.
I was originally intended to be an MMO but I think there was an issue with funding so the scale was toned down to a single player gear but it has a very generic MMO feel to it, which isn't a bad thing if you're into that kind of stuff. I tried replaying Return of Reckoning a while back but apparently there's a memory leak bug if you leave too many unlooted containers on the ground so the game breaks, now I can't be bothered to restart and loot/pawn everything to prevent that.
I hate the game because of stupid level scaling. If you explore the world too early, all zones will scale down and get locked to low level.
They should've gone with static levels.
Didn't they introduce level scaling in the remaster? I found the game to be really easy in both the original and the remaster
Maplestory is basically a singleplayer game nowdays.
My issue with maplestory is that it literally only has PvE content. The social aspect was HUGE and outside of party quests they did fricking NOTHING with it. In fact, I'm pretty sure at certain points the EXP gain was WORSE if you joined groups.
I miss PQs. They were actually worth doing to get the equips, and when they revamped em to make PQ set pieces which was neat. Nowadays it's just better to not do em.
I played a dogshit MMO called fiesta online. Higher level players would set-up a store in a zone lowbies were grinding so they would sell potions so they could grind longer but also buy things like leather that the mobs would drop so they could do their own crafting. At a set-time PQ's would pop and you'd see all the lowbies just vanish to do it and the PQ would be a zerg to the boss hoping enough people survive because it gave huge rewards. No fricking idea why modern MMO devs are so fricking stupid.
I love player run shops like in late 90s early 00s korean games. Sure you just afked with it up any time you werent playing, but it was cool doing what you said and selling a frick ton of low level potions and food out at a hunting spot with a markup.
FlyFF was the first game I played that did this and it's criminal that most other games never really ran with the idea.
Going to towns and seeing all the 100+ players with shops out, with descriptions and all was kino.
Instead we get games where we get to town and everyone is just idling, it's so fricking shit. Cities should have shit to do, maybe even moreso than outside areas.
It is definitely one of the instances of Quality of Life changes ruining the soul. Was finding a certain item a huge fricking pain in the ass with that system? absolutely. but the community felt a lot more like a community. Wakfu had the bag shop setup recently and it was great.
A lot of the magic in old MMOs was in stuff that was "wasted time". Finding groups, waiting for travel, shopping, etc all increased the community feeling of the server. You would start seeing the same players waiting on boats and get to know them, or find a good combat medic curing wounds waiting for a shuttle in Star Wars Galaxies. The reason everyone knew everyone on old servers was because it was useful, and people were out and about doing shit.
If tax rates for trading posts were higher, player shops could still exist. Like you set up a shop and that shop could have a lower tax rate, so you could pass on that value to other players.
Like 50% tax rate means that you're selling something for 100gp and getting 50gp back.
But if player shops hat 0% tax rate you could sell for 75gp, make more money, and it costs less for players too so it's worth looking around if you're in town.
And you can develop this too, such as having taxes differ from city to city, or differ depending on the type of product you're selling. And having players be in control of taxes, so if a guild owns a city, they control taxes for that city.
>And having players be in control of taxes, so if a guild owns a city, they control taxes for that city.
AoC Mayors can do that
remove real-time combat and skills that depend on cooldowns
Ff11 was the best mmo
I guess the important question is: what would a good MMO offer players that they can't get from other games & genres?
MMOs used to have a near monopoly on being able to play and meet up with strangers online. That's mostly filled by other game genres nowadays, OR it's no longer such a popular draw.
What else can they offer?
I just want to play a RPG with my wife while not getting bombarded by homosexuals and trannies.
There's RPGs with multiplayer around. Have you played Divinity 2?
Why does Guild Wars 2 feel like it has everything you'd want and does everything really well but doesnt feel right
The combat feels weighty but also sluggish, to the point where if you're melee and you dont have constant quickness you feel slow as frick, and why does every basic attack need such a huge windup
One of the biggest problems with MMOs in general is that they have to in some way compensate for lag. Lightspeed is fricking fast but it is not instantaneous.
>Lightspeed is fricking fast but it is not instantaneous.
And then you have to take in consideration incompetence, bottleneck and routing problems creating delay.
Quickness and Alacrity fricked combat hard.
When you have a decent support you always have quick or alac so when you don't have that support you feel like a slug stuck in molasses.
remove raiding and other 1% top player endgame only content
remove skill cooldown rotation combat
remove non person-to-person trade systems
>remove non person-to-person trade systems
Seriously. Frick auction houses.
Remove all trading and player economy. This is the other tough pill boomers need to accept. If your game has trading, it's p2w. If you think that's worth it, fine, just know that that's what you're advocating for.
Trading is fine, if the game becomes too transactional with everything being weighed by how much gold it's worth you can just raise the trading tax rate to make actually holding materials valuable instead of just dumping them and exchanging them for whatever mat you need. Then if you need mats for something you have to go get them yourself or pay up in gold which is expensive due to the tax rate.
did you even read my post?
>give chinaman $500
>get all the mats
player trading is dogshit sorry
region lock china and ban vpn's - if Ganker can do it so can devs
Oh so player to player direct trading.
Tarkov got rid of bartering on the flea market for that reason.
If you force me to put down a personal shop with my character or hit people up to barter in whispers like we used to do it back in the day I will fricking NPC vendor every single drop I don't need. No one has time for that garbage as a working adult.
There's nothing to fix
Guild Wars is an excellent game
the netcode is dog water and it's extremely laggy for me and I'm in the US with great internet
hmm I'm sorry to hear that, anon 🙁
I haven't experienced anything like that.
>literally just had to dump everything from gw1 into gw2's world
Fricking arenanet
I stop Sega from making PSO2 into a F2P game
GW2 is actually pretty fun to pop in from time to time
soulslike combat
instead of managing cooldowns and macros and shit, it's stamina and mana
proper hitboxes and hurtboxes, no phasing through shit or lack of collisions
make mobility more important but also remove the shitty danger area boss mechanic, make players have to pay attention to the boss instead of staying out of circle
>managing cooldowns and macros and shit, it's stamina and mana
man do I have the game for you
get rid of level scaling and the ability to solo 95% of the content. if you dont want to play with other people in a multiplayer game go play a different game.
Give solo players their own content so they keep playing.
Most PvE MMORPGs force solo players into group content via a groupfinder.
The solo player can't play in a group and the group player has to play content that's been simplified for the solo player. Nobody wins.
>Give solo players their own content so they keep playing.
Catering to solo players in a MULTIPLAYER game was a fricking moron decision wasn't it?
Those solo players might become interested in playing group content and make friends or join a guild. Group content needs to give better rewards.
They can still interact with other players but if they got nothing to do, they leave and your game slowly dies. Nobody who plays an MMO for the first time brings a group of friends with them. They all start as solo players.
A good mmo would structure the game to be a single player rpg that you play with other people. None of this focus on raiding. Make the game a single player rpg where you group up with other adventurers to accomplish things and thrive.
Every MMO can be fixed with full loot PvP.
Just adjust the power scaling a little so endgame equipment doesn't make you an immortal killing machine.
You are now enjoying infinite player generated content. Gathering and crafting becomes worth doing. The player driven economy suddenly works as there's constantly demand for new equipment.
Give players something to fight over and done.
Are there good examples of popular MMOs with full loot PVP?
Albion is surprisingly popular, but the numbers might just be carried by mobile.
It only has two servers. Those mobile players don't have a separate server. You can kill them and take their stuff.
Albion online did this pretty well in theory but it's a shitty mobile game
Runescape tried this with Darkscape and people weren't really interested. The game died eventually.
osrs has shit in the wilderness but also "pvp worlds"
in pvp worlds the only safe areas are banks, strangely enough. It would be cooler imo if everywhere inside city walls were safe and people dueled outside of city walls.
in theory if the gameplay is good enough (or you have a community to show off your achievements to) people will just want any excuse to keep doing it
People don't want to lose progress. Full loot PvP has to be built from the ground up to be that. Equipment has to be expendable, better gear can't make you a god, and the community has to be large enough and agreeable enough to deal with organized gank squads. You can't just adapt an existing game to full loot PvP and expect it to go well at all. Even if it does work out, the expectations of MMOs have shifted so much that it would be niche, people think losing gear in an MMO makes it a huge time sink and even if it's not, you can't convince many MMO players otherwise.
So every new player will be ganged upon and looted to the fricking bone by higher level whales 5 minutes after joining the server? And never achieve anything above lvl 2, because every time he get a better piece of shit/more gold he will be assfricked and robbed naked by nolife lvl 99?
Plus, the economy will crash because high lvl will be selling mountains of low level stuff for pennies, making crafting of such stuff meningless while hoarding and gatekeeping high lvl and material to secure their own superiority?
Gee, I''m sure that new people will swarm that kind of game and it will last forever with constant stream of new players
hear me out"
>armor slows people considerably
>people can strip naked and drop everything and just run away easily
>fill the world with caves and shit with a million hidden passageways
>people can almost always dip and run
>put skilling/smithing areas in all these dwarven ass caves so people can make more armor
one thing I always wish runescape did was connect all of their underground areas
So you average game session for new players will be something like:
1. Log in
2. Wander around for 5 minutes doing mmo stuff
2. Get fricking assaulted by some 123456679lvl american mastercard warrior which can one shot you
3. Have a choice: die and lost all your shit or run and lost all your shit
4. Decided to drop everything and run bareass to nearest cave or whatever.
5. Spend time grinding for just replacing the shit you lost
6. Leave the cave
7. See point 2 and follow another iteration of the same cycle
Ton of fun you have there with that game loop, pal. I bet people won't be able to restrain their excitement for being locked in neverending 'grind for shit just to loose it moment later and repeat that ad infinitum' cycle.
>get a friend
>gank whale and take his stuff
>use his stuff to gank bigger whales
>Gameplay just devolves to who has the biggest gank squad
>Twitch streamer inevitably takes over the game with his squad of morons
Nice fricking game
at least you have an escape option and some recourse instead of fricking griefing squad that wants another FULL LOOT PVP mmo to fricking die in
Alright. Getting 20 of my closest friends to make a naked gank squad and run down whales with our superior numbers movement speed.
The whale could also die to other whales. Players would naturally group up to kill whales.
The risk of losing so much is not worth the reward at some point.
Most players would wear budget sets.
High level resources would be heavily contested. You would need to earn them first.
You can simply walk away and avoid fights that look unfair to you. Nobody likes ganking. Simply don't have it in your game.
Full loot pvp only works in a case like the Wilderness. The Wilderness is complete genius in game design and id be disappointed if the reward for venturing to such a dangerous area isnt worth it anymore.
This is already the case in RS. PKers are extremely easy to curbstomp, given the asymmetric nature of PvP, as they tend to completely neglect their defenses when ambushing normalgays.
The problem is, most players are complete herbivores with the reflexes of a slug, and zero risk management. They'll wander into the wildy with 50mil in ultra rare gear, refuse to manage their prayer, and cry like b***hes when they lose everything. Literal cattle.
They just want to chop wood and watch movies on their second screen.
The problem with OSRS is the mechanical skill required that you cannot learn outside of PvP and on top of that kills can be decided within a single tick. Runescape has one of the worst PvP systems out of any MMO which is why it has justifiably died off despite the multiple attempts to revive it
> the mechanical skill required that you cannot learn outside of PvP
Castlewars is only kept alive by a cult but Soul Wars and maybe LMS are decent pvp tutorials with actual rewards.
>that you cannot learn outside of PvP
False. You can learn basic prayer flicking as a noob doing slayer tasks and later in bossing. Killing all three GWD bodyguards solo with perfect flick cycles will make you a god.
>kills can be decided within a single tick.
nonsense
>False. You can learn basic prayer flicking as a noob doing slayer tasks and later in bossing
The shit going on in PvP is decidedly NOT "simple prayer flicking".
>nonsense
You can go to any singular PvP clip channels and see people get dropped within a singular tick.
I don't know who you're trying to kid, everyone is fully aware of how bad runescape's PvP scene is and how dogshit it is. There's a reason the most pvp people have done is edgeville f2p.
>NOT "simple prayer flicking"
same skillset
>people get dropped within a singular tick
skill issue. Ambushes exists, RNG's a b***h, and prayer nerfs ags to a max hit of like 45.
You don't need to justify the dead PvP scene to me anon, I already know how dead OSRS PvP is and I'm sure that's the way you like it and will like it until you're the last person doing it
That just turns PvP into a gambling simulator where you're just chasing the high of winning a risk fight. You'll just have people buying their gear with IRL money to fight. However that's the only type of PvP unique to MMO's which can be fun, anybody who takes competitive games seriously would rather just play another genre to outskill somebody, without risk MMO PvP is always shit
I doubt whales are dumb enough to swipe in a full loot PvP game. Power isn't permanent. You can lose that $40 you spent on the best everything. One death and you respawn naked. Money stolen by another player. No refunds.
PvP should be the core gameplay and not some side activity that the player gets punished for. AoC won't have full loot PvP if they continue like this.
They're making a full loot PvP game for players that don't want full loot PvP.
-no pay to win shit, just cosmetics but nothing garish
-harder and better gameplay, something like dark souls combat
-make it really difficult to solo the game, you have to rely on other players to fight and trade items
-no main quest, you spawn in and go wherever you want to
-no class lock
-no fast travel
thats all i can think of, pretty sure i would bankrupt though
I'm working on a game like this now actually using microsoft playfab. It looks like valheim tier graphics though. Each main area has its own market so you have to actually move between areas. I'm not that creative though so I basically am trying to leech ideas from threads like these.
You can't fix the MMO genre.
The MMO genre was novel in the late 90s/early 00s when the idea of a shared world with hundreds/thousands of players connected at once was fresh and new.
It was a glorified chat room with avatars with terrible gameplay thrown in to keep people somewhat engaged.
so you're saying it needs good gameplay to fix it?
No, he's saying it worked in the first place because the idea of meeting people online and playing a multiplayer game with hundreds, even thousands of other people was fun and exciting.
This. Gameplay didn't matter because the idea of an online virtual world was novel. That is no longer the case. MMO's depended on novelty.
Novelty is an important aspect but gameplay did matter. The really popular MMOs like Runescape or WoW were designed to be addictive. Exploration, the constant promise of future rewards and frequent (but small) ticks of experience to give a steady sense of progression.
No. Gameplay is irrelevant. The draw of MMOs at the launch was the same draw that social media has now. It was a way to connect with people with similar hobbies online across the world.
Ask anyone that's been a longtime MMO player and their best memories aren't really what happened in the game, it's what they were doing with their buddies while in game. Without their buddies the memories are meaningless.
These guys get it. MMOs lost their novelty over a decade ago.
so wouldnt good gameplay fix it now that online isnt new anymore?
No, because there are countless alternatives that do the good parts of MMOs better than MMOs could ever do them, without all the bloat and nonsense.
This is why MMOs suck. The entire point of raids in WoW was to try and facilitate these kind of moments, like a demented version of an online dating site. Instead, dealing with people is the absolute worst part of the game.
>Gameplay is irrelevant.
/v/, everyone
>taking one sentence out of an entire post, without the posts context, and without the reply chain that gives it context
/v/, everyone
>Ask anyone that's been a longtime MMO player and their best memories aren't really what happened in the game, it's what they were doing with their buddies while in game. Without their buddies the memories are meaningless.
Yeah, no shit. The problem with modern MMOs is that there is nothing to do in the open-world but farm brainless mobs or gather like a bot. There is no danger, no stakes, no discovery, no conflict, no friction, nothing.
I remember being an annoying Thief in UO and having to sneak out of town because a group got together for the sole purpose of hunting me down. Shit like that would and will never happen in modern MMOs and if it did, the new audience of ADHD whiny homosexuals will complain until the devs gut their own game.
QoL features were a double edged sword in the end. I remember having to ride a 20 minute horse in DAOC just to meet up with friends, and having to ride that 20 minute horse every time we wiped.
Sure it sucked, but the world was an actual world you had to traverse. Party members were actual people you knew and befriended, now you just group find everything, teleport, and play with homosexuals.
Yeah, conveniences have all but killed the friction that made the world in MMOs feel alive. Now everyone is idling in cities, waiting for the game to find players for whatever instanced content they're running. Gatherings just hop on their flying mounts, pick up their mats and fly away. Traders just go to the nearest auction house, put their items up for sale for the whole server to see and log off. Modern MMOs may as well just drop the open-world and go for a mission based, hub world like GW1.
Yup. MMOs started as worlds but turned into lobbies to appeal to the masses.
Wish they'd just drop the open-world facade already. I know that modern homosexuals like to complain about how "the game isn't respecting my time", but the open-world in modern MMOs is the biggest time waster of all.
This man gets it. Same deal in EQ, you had to run through dangerous zones, risking XP/level loss and possible corpse decay (with your items on it) if you didn't recover it in time. Sure, there were classes that could give run speed buffs, port others to wizzy spires and druid ruins, but you had to actually interact with other players and usually pay to get those services. Necromancers corpse summoning spell, for example, consumed an expensive coffin every time it was used, so you had to pay a lot for that convenience.
Needs a dedicated team of passionate people who aren't curated by the marketing department. MMOs have a lot of problems, but one of the biggest is that they are way too high budget and aren't allowed to fail or innovate, so they are all the same and they all suck
End game is just a way to keep getting subscriptions money. It’s literally a scam. Any decent mmo would end at max lvl or after defeating the boss. You could keep playing by finishing by up any quests you haven’t completed or exploring a part of the world you haven’t looked into yet. It would be just like any single player rpg after you finish the game.
the endgame was supposed to be PvP but for some reason people hate that
plus nobody wants to grind forever in a fricking game
Pvp endgame makes more sense. Especially in a game like wow
i can't speak for WoW but i can speak for Runescape, at least oldschool
one of the "hardest" challenges was to get a fire cape to use it on PvP, everyone would start engaging in PvP activities once they had enough PvE but now players just want some new boss with a new item they have to grind
those who have stayed in the MMOs sphere are pretty much playing slots, where they grind a boss like 10k times to get a roll at a loot table and see if they got the rare item, run to the market, sell all their loot and do it all over again, it's sad
>nobody wants to grind forever in a fricking game
what about the Black folk in osrs with 200m xp in every skill
getting all 99 takes fricking years and a 99 is only like 12m exp each
dopamine addicts
the people stupid enough to grind to 200m or 99s are autists or morons
i don't even know why people do it, it doesn't take skill, just free time
videogames are technically all waste of time. you get a sunk cost fallacy with mmos but they also put everyone's stats on the public high scores board and some people want to be at the top.
if forgotten korean mmo had a million people playing it there would be 2 or 3 that would spend 10,000 hours into it. Hell, you find these people occasionally anyway
>technically
There's no technically about it unless you're making money from it somehow
>life is the emperor's currency
>spend yours well
Rare loot drops inside this bag no matter what game
Unironically, nuke social media. social media killed the social aspect of mmos
Too many people that should be playing a single player game playing a MMO instead.
What was the last major western made MMO? WIldstar?
The Amazon one from a couple years ago
New Worlds, before that it was probably TSO?
Not possible. You could make the greatest MMO ever, but the modern audience would still ensure it would be unplayable shit.
Star Wars Galaxies 2, based solely on Pre-CU+JtLS mechanics.
How to fix the MMO genre:
1. Get rid of daily/weekly lockout design.
2. Execute every single troony.
That's it. It's fixed.
I'm going to have to develop a copypasta for these threads.
TLDR: The MMO genre is dead and has been quite obviously replaced by shit like GTA Online, Warframe, Rust and other live service games that you don't consider MMOs. It doesn't need fixing because it sucks anyway
You can't, it peaked in 2000 with the Ruins of Kunark expansion for EQ and you had to be unspoiled by garbage like WoW in order to fully enjoy it. It's too late for the genre, even if you made an MMO that was similar to classic EQ.
Find a way to filter out Twitch and Discord trannies. In other words, make it a porn MMO, and make it very controversial.
>filter discord trannies
>make it a porn MMO
FF14, Balmung. With Mare installed. It's already a porn MMO and it is absolutely infested with discord trannies.
You don't even need to make it a porn MMO, just make it about cute and funny little girls and then present racism as a good thing (Against fantasy races so you don't get in trouble with publishers) and that way you will scare off all undesirables and you don't have to worry about scaring off publishers either.
>a porn MMO
Wouldn't this just end up like Second Life? There are already MMOs with nudity (MO2 comes to mind).
It already exists and it's called vrchat
I think there's something inherently wrong with the genre when people get into or praise such games for their story, like isn't the point of the genre is supposed to be large-scale player interaction?
>Design a game around being played in single player, all content is soloable.
>Make it open world like an MMORPG
>You can see players in towns or when travelling, but not in dungeons or general activity/monster killing hubs while playing single player
>Can invite people into your party to play multiplayer (Which scales difficulty) or trade
>No general/global chat but game occasionally informs you of what other players around your level are doing (Ex. Player died to a goblin, their final words were "FRICK")
>Certain dungeons/areas have players randomly joining your game to be allies or enemies
>Occasionally host events where a large number of players are randomly matched up to either play a mini-game or fight a huge boss raid (Which is designed more for fun than for a challenge)
Would you call a game like this an "MMORPG" or at least close enough?
I'm starting to feel like the MMORPG genre needs adjustments to adhere to a modern audience and this is sort of the correct route to go. Basically Path of Exile or Diablo 2 where you can basically play single player but you are constantly reminded of the existence of other players, but you don't really have to interact directly with them unless if you want to.
>Design a game around being played in single player, all content is soloable.
>Would you call a game like this an "MMORPG" or at least close enough?
Waht you're talking about is literally the online element of Dark Souls, and it's definitely not an MMO. Designing a game mainly for single players would be the cardinal sin of any MMORPG design.
>Waht you're talking about is literally the online element of Dark Souls
Dark Souls doesn't have an MMORPG-like open world, you can't see people in town or when travelling, the ability to invite people/trade/see messages on what other people are doing is heavily simplified, people won't randomly join you as allies unless if you have random invaders, and there are no large scale player mini-games/events that occur.
>Designing a game mainly for single players would be the cardinal sin of any MMORPG design.
The thing is that modern MMORPGS are already doing this, where 95% of gametime is done in single player (Either designed for single player, or was multiplayer and has been butchered to be single player), and then the last 5% is content where you are 100% forced to play multiplayer because it's scaled far too high to be done by a single person.
>Dark Souls doesn't have an MMORPG-like open world, you can't see people in town or when travelling
You see their ghosts when you're at a campfire, and you can wave to them and they can wave back.
You just described every slash hack game except they're entirely single player.
This is guild wars 2 essentially, or if even more lightweight something like dark souls or spiral knights.
Make it unplayable for casuals and normies, also make it unplayable for Twitch Streamers and Youtubers.
why would I want to run around alone in an MMO?
Still beats having to play with IRL NPCs.
play a single player game then
No, you go play one of the hundreds of MMOs that are specifically tailor made for the casual shitter audience on the Asmon layer. All I'm asking for is one(1) game.
lmao, of all the problems that modern MMOs are struggling with, too broad an appeal to players of all skill levels isn't one of them
I don't know about that. Casuals ran WoW into the ground by screeching on the forums until everything the game had to offer was dumbed down beyond repair and easily achievable with 2 hours playtime/week. That's not what MMOs should be about.
you're literally asking for a singleplayer game, are you moronic?
>I sure hope this MULTIPLAYER game has some good SOLO content!
Full loot PvP will do this. Don't punish people for griefing streamers, then casuals will be run off by the full loot and streamers will be run off by the devs not simping for them.
I liked EQ's PvP looting rules; full body loot except main hand/off hand weapons so melee weren't fricked, nothing in bags could be looted and a large portion of coin could be looted. So you had some protection, but if you wanted to benefit from your gear, you do so at a massive risk.
Full loot pvp is moronic. People would just not wear their good shit they spent hours getting.
Many people didn't in EQ, they also lost a lot of fights and exp by not increasing their odds in fights.
>Game has full loot PvP, but it's used as a form of punishment for griefers
>Instead you drop your crafting mats and reagents on death
>Randomly killing players increases your corruption stat
>The higher your corruption stat the greater your chances of dropping gear on death
>Only way to lower corruption is to complete PvE activities
>If another player attacks unprovoked whilst corrupted they won't be corrupted themselves
>If corruption gets high enough then you are marked on the map for other players to hunt you down
What do you think of Ashes of Creation approach to full loot PvP?
Literally Albion except they call it Reputation that gives you bonus defence the bigger the rep diff is.
If your rep gets too low you simply can't enter specific areas anymore until you earn more rep again.
Wanted systems are easily exploited.
It's full loot for everyone. Anything in-between is just unfair towards PvP players.
Pretty sure most PvP MMOs have some kind of reputation system so PKers don't take overhand. AoC sure loves its needlessly complicated systems.
I don't think it's complicated, grief and you open yourself up to full loot. There will be PvP activities that don't cause corruption, like attacking another player's caravan or attacking players out on the sea
That it will probably see many revisions as the game has only been player tested in a very short window on an extremely rough/early build. As for what you/they have stated the plans with it are, I think it sounds okay. But all that is also contingent on the project not being a scam.
Lol how many people are doing challenging pve stuff in mmos? Anything less is a glorified chatroom where you roll your face across the keyboard to win and playing house.
>Lol how many people are doing challenging pve stuff in mmos
More than anyone even considering doing PvP. No one but an autistic minority enjoys MMO PvP
>im not an autist because I like running the same activity 500 times
lol, lmao even
>But all that is also contingent on the project not being a scam.
I think the project is moving along fine for an indie MMO. Not giving them any money until the game is officially released though.
You are still misunderstanding what I'm saying, Pvp should never be the sole focus, but it should always be there. If you want a direct example of this then look at UO
>Lol how many people are doing challenging pve stuff in mmos?
Not him, but EVERY single person in end-game is doing challenging pve stuff in an MMO. End-game in MMOs, while cancer, is primarily challenging PvE stuff, most games, even WoW and FF14, only have PvP as an afterthought because it's no where near as profitable as the gear treadmill and raid roulette.
This is primarily why a lot of people are filtered, the start of the game is braindead easy and nobody likes doing it, but you have to in order to enjoy the fruits the game. Or just quit, and do something better with your time. Even a PvP game would fall prey to this as the only balanced PvP would be end-game.
Players will always find ways to play around that. They should just introduce a Bounty Hunter that makes it easier to hunt down players the more corruption they have or just actual consequences like being only able to group with other corrupt players or only being able to join rogue factions/nodes with corrupt leaders
The whole about losing health and damage the more corruption you have is dumb
They'll probably iterate on it after Alpha 2 (or at least I hope they do), but I think it's decent for a starting point
Make the gear less valuable and time consuming to attain aka crafting. Its like the UO system.
Gloria victis has loot on, but here is a point system. Up to 10 points total you can loot worth of gear off someone, a weapon is like 8 points. Characters usually carry multiple weapons on them for different situations. The full loot on occurs in the center of the world.
Not an MMO, but Hurtworld had a good system where you only dropped important loot if you killed another player. So if you died with say money or resources they would drop, but your armor and tools wouldnt. The person who killed you would then have full loot debuff on them for awhile so if you wanted you could run back and attempt revenge, get your resources back AND their entire inventory. I've never seen any other games implement a system like this, it worked so fricking well.
You can't fix it, MMOs were only good in their infancy, where most people had no idea what they were doing. There was actually a sense of adventure back then but you simply can't reproduce that nowadays, it's impossible.
Also old MMOs were very time consuming, the only people who could enjoy them to their fullest are teens or college students, but even if you were to give the current generation of them the old mmo experience they would ignore it in favor of current gaming trends.
PvE MMORPGs are dead.
Just play a PvP MMORPG already, you Black person.
All the problems that plague PvE MMORPGs, fixed.
I'm holding out for blizzard's hardcore pvp servers.
Will it be full loot PvP? Anything else doesn't sound very hardcore to me.
If they ever release it, dead characters will be instantly deleted instead of being lootable.
So everyone will be lvl 10 max until one player becomes untouchable at lvl 20? I unironically want this.
>hardcore pvp
I thought the HC servers would be PvE.
PvP for the sake of itself is stupid.
You are usually given an objective to fight over and winner takes it all. A treasure chest, a resource node or something like that.
>PVP
>MMO
kek
Yes, it used to be a common part of the genre. What MMOs have you played?
DAOC and WARHAMMER. I loved both of these games, but even I'll admit that PVP+MMO=Worse experience than simply playing a PVP game that isn't MMO.
I will respectfully disagree. PvP is what makes travelling not a complete bore and makes gathering tense. Being able to just kill some annoying homosexual without having to get their consent first is part of the charm of MMORPGs
>common part of the genre
There's a reason every single MMO with PvP at its focus has died off and why current MMO's don't really advertise their PvP
The PvP focused MMOs that come out these days are complete trash at their core, they don't die solely because of PvP. Let's not pretend that there aren't many more PvE only MMOs that come out and die as well.
>Let's not pretend that there aren't many more PvE only MMOs that come out and die as well.
PvE focused MMO's last significantly longer than PvP ones. That's how bad PvP is within MMO's. It caters to a minority of players and cannot carry a game, only supplement it at best.
Like I said, they're trash at their core, even if they were PvE they'd still be dead. Also the game should never be focused entirely on PvP, but PvP should always be a constant, like how UO did it
>but PvP should always be a constant,
delusional
Yes. If you want go gather then you should also be prepared for the potential of PvP.
Yeah? Go check out Mortal and see how that worked out for them
Yeah, that game is shit at it's core, like I've been saying. It'd be shit and dead even if PvP was completely optional
>no no, you see, no true PvP game has ever been tried before! If >I< could make the game it'd be perfect!
moron
Guild Wars 1 PvP is god-tier
this one fricking skill has more shit going on than everything in warframe
>hey we have this great platform for thousands of players to play together
>I know we will remove any semblance of multiplayer and player interaction to appeal to bored housewives and dumb amarican mutts
>hardcore players want PVP and faction wars and battles?
>frick that make it all furry shit and teddy bears for the mentally challenged goody two shoes
PVP in MMOs sucks.
/duel in DAOC was based though
Realize that there's more to the game than PvE and PvP. The ultimate goal of an MMO should be to have multiple games in it. WoW added pokemon in the form of battlepets and did fricking NOTHING with it besides adding in new pets. I don't know why crafting is always fricking neglected. The fact that there's no MMO where you could have multiple players face-off to see who can make the best piece of equipment is criminal. The only thing that has remotely captured this feel are mangas. Another major issue is that devs balance for the sake of balance, not fun.
Mangas? What?
No idea but i do think RS2 did progression very well.
Let it die once so idiots stop demanding every MMO has every feature from the 10+ year old ones. After that make one that's based on the "you're adventuring in the game world" feeling again. Make the scope as small as possible. If you notice some old time MMO player throwing around ideas on forums, ban him from the game.
I kinda like runescape when doing group skilling minigames, because it captures that feeling of workplace comradery in a low skill job, and I play it while im at work at my higher skill more isolated office job
The best part of Runescape is doing group activities. It's why people remember castle wars and stealing creation more than most parts of the game. It's also why MMO's keep failing when devolve into only doing instances in the form of PvP or PvE.
I haven't played FFXIV in many years but I still remember doing Hunt trains, treasure maps, and doing all the shit at the gold saucer. Don't remember much of my leveling experience or doing raids
Here's the problem with MMO's, other than the novelty being gone.
If I wanna play a single player RPG I have hundreds of games to choose from that are x10 better than any MMO.
If I wanna PVP I have Call of Duty, Dark Souls, Dota bullshit, literally any pvp garbage is better than what "mmo pvp" offers.
pvp in mmos kinda sucks unless you put everyone on equal footing gearwise. otherwise you end up with shit like eso where you see 1 guy getting attacked by 40 people while being hit with multiple seige weapons and not taking any damage
Release thousands of grindy MMOs every month and eventually some shit might stick.
The combat in runescape isnt why the pvp works, it is how the interactions are formed. PVP focus MMORPGs are garbage, as are PvE ones, there has to be a balance to where there are systems that reward people who arent risk adverse into going into the designated pvp areas, flagging themselves, or whatever system which is why the wilderness itself was great
PvP that is forced everywhere is trash. PvP with no meaningful reward or risk is just griefing and nothing else.
Focusing on either PvP or PvE is how you end up in WoW: a game that shot itself in the foot with its 3rd expansion and never recovered. PvP and PvE are supplemental. Why do you think classic WoW was so fricking popular and retained so many players? It wasn't the PvP and it certainly wasn't the PvE. It was the social aspect. It carried PvP and PvE. If WoW had ever bothered to add in multiple evergreen systems it wouldn't be as fricked as it is now.
>Buy WoW and make sure I'm not a publicly traded company so i alone have direction of it.
>Immediatly fire the writing team and hire literal whos that show passion for rpgs and warcraft in general, yknow the neckbeards on reddit.
>No more expansions, no more hype patches, it'll take a huge marketing hit but hopefully it will be worth it for constant updates to the world every month, even if just a zone, old or new being changed forever, no phasing, frick that noise. Deathwing wreaking havoc in Stormwind? Yeah you no longer have a capital there, it's now a max level questing zone deal with it.
>Focus HEAVILY on customization, 50 choices per character per option, make it wild.
>NSFW models and content, allow players to frick eachother in specific shady areas
I'd make a fun game to play with friends 🙂
>always hear about trannies in ffxiv on Ganker
>been playing for 10 years and never seen a single mention of them
How the frick are you guys finding trannies?
Those aren't "girls" in your guild anon...
Yea I’m pretty sure they aren’t calling themselves girls, surely you don’t think playing as a girl character makes you a troony?
>surely you don’t think playing as a girl character makes you a troony?
No, but playing FF14 does.
they/them look in the mirror
Biggest cope take. 60% of the savage/ultimate community is LGBTQ.
>raided mostly with normal weebs
>raided with one troony in 8 years
>raided with multiple ironic racists
>raided with one avowed nazi who was a regular on a white nationalist podcast
>he even converted a Filipina girl in our group into a raging antisemite making her the 2nd nazi I've raided with
My personal experience would lead me to believe that FF14 is more based than not.
>nazi who was a regular on a white nationalist podcast
Gilgamesh? There was a TRS guy who raided there.
Yeah, took me a while to find out what that acronym is, that's definitely the site he was on. He said it was some paranormal conspiracy thing but I never actually listened to it.
People suck. People who play vidya on average suck even more than the average normalhomosexual. Making a game that involves multiple "gamers" as a baseline means the game will likely suck.
>Blizzard never made a world of starcraft in their prime
The truth is they were always bad, nostalgia of being a kid and having imagination when you first played it shielded you from the bad combat, lack of content, and usually toxic money practices by the devs.
Take away the glasses and the “good old days” and play any mmo like you’ve never played a game like that anymore, and a mentally well adult would find the game awful.
Forcing main story quests on to the player is the easiest way to get me uninterested. I hate it when so much of the world feels gated behind that shit
It never peaked.
The only solution is to get rid of all MMOs for a few generations so that it can be rediscovered after everyone forgets about them
That is pretty much what happened.
People want MMOs again.
Currently all games are trash, we need to return to the basics.
How's lost ark?
>How's the KMMO
Take a guess anon
Fantastic combat with good boss battles and raids but everything else around that sucks.
Can't be done. The online infrastructure is too advanced and easy to access.
MMO's peaked during the nascent years of public access to the Internet for a reason.
It can be done but the focus isn't going to be about PvE or PvP but the journey. It's going to have to be a game where no one can realistically ever hit end-game, like an infinite treadmill, but with content always dropping so no player can poopsock it and encrypted so no one can datamine anything. I don't think it's realistic at all to be worth the trouble. Shitting out WoW but with a new coat of paint is as much effort as people are willing to do.
>Take genre that has "Massively Multiplayer" in the name
>Focus on single player content for 99% of the game
>punish people for partying while trying to tackle quests
>punish people for deciding to tackle in-game monsters as a group, by splitting their EXP
>introduce moronic mechanics like 'XP stealing'
>everyone is an individual whose existence is a source of either frustration for other players or outright apathy
>WhY DID THE GENRE DIE
it's a real mystery, innit? better put in more quest chains, that's "Content", right? our board of directors who don't play video games said so, because it takes time to complete. anything that takes time must be content, isn't it? they can buy skip scrolls from the cash shop if it bothers them.
what I'm getting at is frick IMC and frick Nexon too
What is the current Korean MMO scene? what new games are coming out there?
I think the main problem with MMOs these days are the constant Endgame is the main focus, like everything before the endgame is pointless, where as in Ultima, EQ or WoW, it was a journey through this large open world; A lot of problems modern MMOs have is a lack of player agency, everyone does the same quests to get to the same end result with little to no deviations. This endgame focused game design results in shit like Path of Exile, Genshin, other modern Grinding games. the real game doesn't start until you've already sunk 50+ hours in. Everquest was the peak of exploration in an MMO
Then everyone quits after a week because there's nothing to do. The MMO playerbase isn't little Timmy playing an hour then doing his homework any more, and developing new, explorable content takes time.
This is why MMO's need to focus on having more than just instance based PvP and PvE. You need to give players so much to do that they cannot reasonable do it all between the patches and you do that by having other content such as housing, skilling, crafting, mini-games, and all sorts of systems and events. FFXIV is on the right track but they treat these things as side content, not part of the main game so they never really get fleshed out as much as they should.
>Little timmy isn't going to reach end-game in a week
That's my point, and the fact that little timmy isn't playing MMOs any more. People who are sitting in the jungle starting zone a week after release are not the main playerbase of MMOs any more.
>What you're doing is thinking exactly like the executives who ruin these games think
Maybe, in that we both understand a game won't survive running on a loss.
I don't see the difference between a boring repetitive crafting grind and a boring repetitive dungeon one. If by content you mean actually new stuff, again, development has it's limits.
The fundamental problem is devs can't put out fun, new content faster than players can consume it. You're acting like they're just choosing not to.
>You're acting like they're just choosing not to.
By only having two systems with any sort of depth, PvE and PvP, that's literally what they're doing. They've regulated crafting and gathering to literally just be "buy items from the auction house and press a button" or "click on object". FFXIV has quests specific to the crafting/gathering but ultimately it's the same thing, just hidden because people just use macros to accomplish the same thing. Crafting and gathering are always supplemental system to PvP and PvE content. It's never its own thing. OSRS is the closest you get but skills in that game are just supplemental to its combat system.
Little timmy isn't going to reach end-game in a week. If he's encouraged to go through the content with his friends, he'll only play with his friends, which means he'll spend more time on the mid-game content, he'll enjoy it more, AND he'll have a better memory of the game and want to stay for the end-game content by the time he gets there.
What you're doing is thinking exactly like the executives who ruin these games think. They only think about the people who are going to spend 500 hours in end-game, but never the majority of players who have to go through 200 hours of hell to get there. Then the game dies, because the people who reach end-game in a week will never be satisfied, they'll grind through all of it in a weekend while the majority of your players are still poking orcs with sticks, alone, in the jungle, until they get bored and quit.
I think the overemphasis on 'length' or 'content' has killed the genre more than anything.
I don't care if it takes me 300 hours to reach end game if it's 300 hours of bashing rocks together by myself in the jungle. I would rather a game take 50 hours to reach end-game if it's going to be just that. Games just forgot that they need interesting content to pad out the journey from start to finish because everything is made by committee, now. And it's impossible to explain to a board room of suits that your game is about interacting with other people and forming friendships and bonds in this journey through a magical land when they want to see stats, figures, hard-numbers on something that isn't supposed to be the same experience for every single person. They want to see QA hours for every possible path a character can explore and be able to justify how long it would take to feature-complete the game.
It would be like if an MMO company like Nexon developed a game like Minecraft. There's a reason they didn't: Because you can't show a linear path from start to finish in a game like that. And they live and die on stats, charts, sales instead of making a good game people want to play.
The mmorpg that exists in my fantasies is great so that's enough for me.
Unironically give endgame players a reason to do "low-end content" with newbies so the newbies could grow, I've only seen this work with DDO, Mabi and XI/XIV.
Once again, citing guild wars 2 for the millionth time in this thread. If you go to low level areas in guild wars 2 your base stats are reduced to that area's level. You keep the bonuses from leveling like your extra abilities and stuff, but you are brought back to that area's level and can get the map completion there.
Endgame as a concept has to die. The only endgame content that should exist is pvp, guild vs guild pvp to be more specific. This makes people group up, and it makes people waste materials as an outlet to prevent the economy from collapsing.
Guild Wars 2 does this very well.
>XP is decent and every level beyond max gives you a mat needed for highest level crafting
>100%ing maps of any level gives you good rewards, including cash shop shit (come on, you know fashion is the true endgame)
>Mid-tier crafting mats sell for a good amount on trading post
>Some of the low-level areas are the most visually interesting or have some really comfy spots
GW2 is kino, too bad the /vg/ for it is a cesspool of trans and shit
Actual game is very nice.
The general is very unfortunate. The EU discord is very nice, fairly autistic from when I played. But that's most Ganker and /vg/ servers. I think at least half of the members were either genuine women or gay though. It had that vibe.
It's a lot of gay and trans, but the EU side is way more chill because they don't post in the general. It's the US side that's just disgusting and doesn't even play the game anymore, they just say how much it sucks.
GW2 is -okay-.
The combat is very basic and the itemization is basically non-existent aside from cosmetics.
It's a great timewaster, but nothing in it feels like it's worth investing time in. I do like the concept of the world, though, as in, quests that just pop up around the zones from time to time and everyone can just go in and out of them, together or alone.
If they really wanted to make interesting, they should've made it so many of those quests were contested. As in, players could pick a side, and you'd get better rewards based on how even the competition was... But only if you won. Throw in some of those quests allowing PVP and now things are interesting. If carebears don't want to PVP, they can just not join the PVP quests.
The game really needs completely different itemization though, it sucks.
"easy"
Just make sure none of the content can be data mined, and next make sure guides are useless. Where if you get good at something its because you can react properly to things, and not because someone posted a guide online.
Next up, gear. Forget the idea of wow style gear. Gear should be 99.8% sidegrades. If something has more def, it has another downside, speed or weight or whaver. This way all content is always viable and not a slow crawl towards high lvl areas with low lvl areas becomming obsolete.
It would be nice if we had an algorithmic approach to content. where you couldn't datamine it and could, in fact, edit any of it without someone being able to reverse-engineer it unless they had their own copy of the server software.
>Gear should be 99.8% sidegrades
No such thing, one stat will ALWAYS be better
I don't think that you can because of the mentality that MMO players have. Everything is a meta to be solved, and people don't so much play the games as just follow instructions in wikis. I know it's not just MMOs that are affected by this, but given the multiplayer element, it seems like they are the genre most likely to dead-end because of it.
I don't know what the solution to this issue is, or if there is one. If there isn't, then I think MMOs are done, since they can only aspire to be soulless chore-fests with devs just intentionally shaking up metas to keep people engaged
>Everything is a meta to be solved, and people don't so much play the games as just follow instructions in wikis.
I blame MMOs that enforce strict skill builds, like grabbing a busted, strong, selfish attack would sound good, but then you would have to drop party support and spend a lot of gold or cash shop nonsense to grab the right skill.
Why did MMOs get rid of customization? WoW used to have a rich subclass feature but then trashed it for some moronic reason.
Probably because people would just pick the same stuff no matter what, it was a illusion of choice
>fantasy MMO
>very low magic
>imagine lord of the rings movies
>if you know any magic at all you are basically a god so it's reserved for legendary lore characters
>light survival elements like eat/drink/rest/extreme weather conditions
>early medieval technology
>grunt gear is chain mail, basic open helmet, spear, broadsword, shield
>knights get chain mail, breastplate, plate helmet, shins, crows beak, flail, 1.5 handers and shield
>4 life paths(classes)
>deeply religious monk/nun(males can specialize into a priest or crusader, females the abbess)
>scoundrel(can specialize into a prostitute or bounty hunter)
>conscript(starts as grunt, can become a town guard or knight) - male only
>adventurer for hire(murder hobo and grave robber, get caught and it's your head)
>different life goals and story per path
>basic class trinity: monks and nuns offer spiritual support, conscripts are the front line, scoundrels and adventurers are of low moral character and looked down by society, everybody needs them, nobody would admit it)
>horses are a thing, if you can afford them, same as wagons
>no random loot, you pick a weapon and specialize with it(learning new moves)
>nuns and monks write chants and study scripture to improve their abilities
>quests are tailored to your life path
>monks and nuns are hired for philosophical tasks and advice
>scoundrels steal shit and spy, combat is rare
>conscripts do army shit like menial labor for their superiors and training
>adventurers have to hunt down contracts in the underworld
>dungeons, caves, ruins are a thing all over the world
>5 man party
>full collision so blocking a hallway /w shields is a valid strategy
>AAA visuals and animations
shut the frick up
exploration being worthwhile
good enough graphics, use UE5 ffs
engaging gameplay
story that makes sense
no gacha bullshit
GW2 fricking sucks though.
If it got a 2023 overhault it maybe wouldnt but..
I want to feel like an actual god when im max lvl, for most of the time that is
Procedurally generated world that consatly resets after X amount of time
>Procedurally generated world that consatly resets after X amount of time
FRICK
NO
that sounds like the most obnoxious shit
So like rust
all full time pvp mmos I’ve ever played have been terrible
it always ends up with roaming gank squads, or the stats in the game make up so much of a difference that you can’t even retaliate outnumbering the person 4 to 1
when we looked up the amount of hours or real money required to be on the same playing field we just gave up on the game(s)
Yeah it's just gank central. This is why extraction/battle royale games are so popular, because you're matchmade into a game where everyone is on the same page. If you can do anything in an mmo, and one of those things is pvp, then chances are if someone comes after you, you're just getting ganked.
I dont think theres anything to fix because at this point, ever MMO niche is being filled or will be filled - both f2p and sub models included.
Remove duty/raid/dungeon finders.
Remove non-pvp cross server interactions.
Remove instant fast travel
There. No motherfrickers have to talk to people again and communities will form. Lack of instant fast travel means players will get the sense that the world is an actual world and not a series of zones with loading screens.
Gameplay wise I would try to move away from tab targeting and rotation gameplay.
The only good MMOs left are the old ones; DDO, LotRO, GW1, FFXI, EQ, OSRS, etc.
Single player RPG: recruit NPCs into party, get quests from NPC, upgrade gear through NPCs in town.
MMORPG: play with literal NPCs
OG Everquest but remove raids
Monsters and Memories
Remove instancing.
Remove 'roles'.
Make content in the WORLD that 2-3 people can enjoy doing or that 1 good player can carry a woman or little kid in.
Relaxing activities. The best content Dragonflight has is a fricking soup event which is the first group thing since Timeless Isle but it sucks pretty quick since it is the only thing instead of one of dozens on a rotation.
When you remove instancing you immediately at a life span to any server you join, because servers can die out, where instance/sharded server structures will be filled as long as there exists a dozen of people still playing the game.
Server merging is a thing when population counts are low. If the final server is underpopulated then it's clearly time to shut down anyway.
How does server merging work if you have player housing, auction houses/trading posts, etc. Most game servers just die and players just have to leave their server to transfer to another one. It's not a good experience.
Merge the auction houses/trading posts. Not sure why this would be a problem. Player housing is more problematic, true, but you can just do what FFXIV does and have additional "wards". Alternatively just don't have player housing since those very rarely have gameplay effects anyway. FFXIV's houses are all empty because people just decorate them and then rarely return since there is no reason to.
PLayer housing is such a fricking meme anyway. An actual cash shop grift to play Barbie's Dreamhouse with mismatched furniture pieces you found in some spider's cumhole or spend $40 for a complete set of furnishings for your in-game house only your guildmates will ever see.
An actual waste of time. A proper townhouse or shared living space would be far better for socialization and make it where playing dollhouse at least has some kind of conversation piece. Instead, 'player housing' almost always means that people own some moronicly limited amount of physical space in the digital world, also defeating that purpose too.
I still say Timeless Isle was the best content WoW ever did exactly because of that. You could participate in almost anything regardless of your gear, the loot was always relevant for everyone, there was a ton of variety, PVP was built into it, there was still some linear progression with your cloak leading to the monastery, etc.
It was literally the best thing WoW ever did and I don't think it's close. The whole game should've been designed like Timeless Isle was.
by deleting 95% of all current mmo players and making sure they do not come back to the genre, and then making an mmo that isn't driven by profit and chasing player counts but making a long term non dogshit world.
>make game too hard to do almost anything solo to encourage teaming up and more importantly, making friends you can plan to be able to group with in the future
>focus on exploring the world, and questing
>no instances, all content is in the world
>raids should be something you do after you get to max lvl but is not the focus of the game, just the conclusion to the adventure
>endgame is open world pvp
I've only ever played FFXI, WoW, Guild Wars 1, and FFXIV.
I played WoW the longest, but FFXI felt like it got it closest to what I wanted out of an MMO.
Heavy emphasis on working with others to do anything in the game, even leveling. No holy trinity to pigeon-hole people into a role. Traversing the world took real-world time.
I've heard it's completely changed at this point, but I definitely have very fond memories.
BIG world
No leveling
No handholding
Wanna fast travel? You need to find specific place or class for that
Can solo anything if you want
>B-But
World has changed boomie, spergs won
The game itself needs to be fun. MMO games by design are often “get to max level so you can do the real content”.
We are in the age of Tik Tok, Roblox, and Battle Royales. Zoomers want to just instantly hop in a game and play. No one wants to do something boring for 50 hours to get ready for the REAL game.
just stop being carebears and everything else will follow
yeah, down to zero population
as opposed to now where shit's so good right?
lmao
all you stupid homosexuals do is weaponize the report system anyway. Instead of just flaming a shit healer you get their whole account perma'd by getting all your homosexual friends to mass report.
People will be "toxic" no matter what the devs do, but the status quo only arms the worst people in your community with the MMO equivalent to sending an assassin to someone's house.
Listen, 'stop being carebears' is good advice but you have to accept that for social parts of an MMO
I wouldn't have stuck NEARLY as long with classic WoW back in the day if I weren't laughing my ass off at Barrens chat. Yet the same people who say not to be carebears would say that barrens chat was toxic and removing it for people's feelings was required.
Is this the argument griefers are using now?
What's griefing about someone saying 'Black person' in chat?
What stops you from typing /ignore dumbgay?
Go on, I want to hear this. I want to hear the ultimate explanation as to why I can't actually properly socialize with other people, which does in fact include getting mad at them because it's a social game and it's not a requirement to get along with anyone.
Everyone knows you're trying to trojan horse your way into griefing people by hiding behind muh speech
You can stop pretending to be an idiot, now.
You're on Ganker arguing that the only way people can reasonably want to interact with others is if they are trying to grief or hide behind "muh speech"
what if, idk, they just want to talk? freely? is that a concept you can understand?
>the only way people can reasonably want to interact with others
>someone saying 'Black person' in chat?
The griefer reveals himself
how is saying Black person griefing?
you're losing it lil bro, get some air
>greifer dodges call out
You said reasonable interact and immediately before you were saying you want to be able to call people Black folk. You're obvious a moronic edgy griefer who advocates as little moderation as possible so you can frick over people in-game - it's obvious as frick
i'm a different poster you stupid homosexual
answer the question, how is saying Black person griefing?
do you know what that word means?
griefers are based
griefers forced us to play with our friends and group up
censoring/banning griefers forces us all to be "nice" to homosexuals who deserve to be griefed
Someone saying something extremely rude and offensive and you responding in kind or ignoring them is a reasonable interaction, yes. It is, in fact, how most humans interact.
Source: You're doing this right now with two different anons.
You know what's really unnatural and results in lots of resentment? Having some untouchable third party regulate all interaction to ensure happy-time fun space. And you agree, Otherwise, you would be on reddit.
>Having some untouchable third party regulate all interaction to ensure happy-time fun space.
The absolute state of gaming.
OH MY GOD WORDS, I SAW A WORD THEY'RE GRIEFING
I mean you could just ignore it but you think it's reasonable to ban all discussion altogether
>the same people who say not to be carebears would say that barrens chat was toxic
I think you're confused
for me the best approach is BDO where you can literally discuss how the holocaust didn't happen in world chat and nothing happens to you
I think that's just because the GMs aren't around at all but pretty much just let people say whatever. The only time someone should get a temp ban is for literally spamming someone or following them around everywhere (which ironically, XIV doesn't ban people for lol)
Making the only MMO Destiny 2 obviously.
make the combat fun
MMOs should be hardcore PVP only.
Carebear raiding is gay as frick and for literal boomer morons. There's plenty of PVE singeplayer/co-op RPGs like Elden Ring for you addled smooth brained morons.
Its been proven time and time again only PvP keeps a game fresh and alive.
>MMOs should be hardcore PVP only.
>Make dead genre even more dead
lmao how are all those Hardcore PVP MMOs treating you buddy? Let me guess real hardcore pvp mmos haven't been tried right? Maybe if you guys weren't always eating your own tail by driving off new players you'd actually have a genre.
>MMOs should be hardcore PVP only.
I miss tibia.
>MMOs should be hardcore PVP only.
I somewhat agree on that, but most of the players that are into that sort of stuff just gravitate towards BRs and Fighting games these days. They offer a better experience, bigger playerbases and more competitive opportunities.
If you look at what an MMO does uniquely, that no other game genre really does, it is pretty much only raids or more specifically 8-10 to 25 man PvE content that is unique to the genre.
>fresh and alive
I like PVP and even I know you're completely talking out of your ass. The PVP community is a huge minority, and has always been.
The ONLY full loot, full PVP MMO that stood the test of time even slightly is EVE Online, and I'd argue even that is more because it has no competition and is a niche genre/setting. And even EVE was forced to go F2P.
>listening to Ganker's opinions
>about MMOs, no less
Ganker wants a single player game with online chat and ERP cooming capabilities, not an MMO experience
Give me an MMO where I can pick a blacksmith as a class with an in-depth crafting and gathering system and be able to take my class to PvP and PvE and when I'm doing I can go play in-game farming sim like Runefactory or chill at the bar with a VRchat system or play ultimate fishing simulator.
People just need to face reality: no one is going to do an MMO right because it's too expensive.
The closest is New World.
>couldn't buy a house and make a farm on it
>Getting max level in crafting didn't even mean anything because they immediately nuked crafting equipment
>The PvP was incredibly busted
>Economy was fundamentally a pyramid scheme
Man, New World is one of the worst MMO's I've ever fricking played
The economy didn't have a chance with all the exploits and bugs at launch lol
Even outside of that the economy is fricked. It was hard to make gold but due to the tax system whoever was in charge of setting taxes will be able to get more gold than they could reasonably spend in months. On top of that only like 2-3 cities were ever worth capturing. In my server the first guild to get everfall kitted themselves out with that blacksmithing set and snowballed from there. All of the officers were rich as frick
if you picked anything other than Blacksmith I would say BDO (be prepared to shit out cash though). You can 100% be a fisher main and just do that.
Other than that there's New World, I guess. But you know... new world lmao.
Like on launch maybe you could do that but right now even though the game is dead I think you'd still have to compete with 24/7 farming multibot accounts. I'd seriously advise against that.
>You can 100% be a fisher main and just do that.
What fishing content is there? Any PvP? PvE? Other content or systems? Or is the only thing you can do is literally just fish?
I'm working on an mmo idea right now and here is the current design:
Start at the top floor, there are town floors and dungeon floors. Each town has its own independent market, think albion online.
Must traverse down through the dungeon, floor by floor. After each floor there is a camping floor where you and your party can prepare for the next floor, buff yourselves, eat, etc (think monster hunter eating buffs type thing). You also decide which way you are going to go from that camp floor (up/down/back to the top).
If you die in a dungeon floor you lose loot (can vary like albion online).
I'm wondering if players should be allowed to move both up and down floors, or only move downward, at which point when they hit a town floor they can teleport back to the top floor with whatever loot they can carry to bring back to the first town market where most trading is done.
Give me 100 floors and a level 999 level cap with a nearly infinite grind to beat the final boss and I can get down with your idea.
I'm actually making it right now with microsoft playfab. I need a reward mechanism for actually going down floors. I'm thinking having a guild wars 2 overlevel system, where you need higher levels to make progress in higher level areas, but if you're in a lower level area your stats get level capped to that area to keep things engaging in those zones.
I was thinking players could carry large teleport crystals which they can activate by getting to lower floors which they could then sell, and by selling those crystals you can basically buy teleports to go lower (but you will have to have made it to that area first anyway). Same with delivering mail to lower floors.
I don't know if it should cost anything to go back up floors, or you have to actually travel all the way back up. If that's the case then it wouldn't really be different than any other mmo without fast travel where you manually walk from area to area. I don't know what's best.
Yeah or danmachi.
>Most of what you describe is just "like albion online" which isn't a great game anyway.
Well the biggest complaint about albion online is the fact that it's a mobile game. Albion online has zones where some are pvp drops and others aren't (like runescape).
So basically that tower from sword art online. Honestly sounds boring and I doubt this concept will get many players. Your proposal has nothing unique about it. Most of what you describe is just "like albion online" which isn't a great game anyway.
Why haven't MMOs turned to player created content as a way to bolster the variety of content their game can offer?
Hytale is going in this direction, it wants to be roblox but minecraft.
>Hytale
>Ever coming out
Because a player-made dungeon which is just one room with Black person Black person Black person written all over it would get stale fast
Why not just, ignore that dungeon then?
this and the chat room conversation makes me question what happened to people's agency? Just don't participate. You see someone being a prick, you don't have to give them the time of day.
>make super hard solo dungeon
>so hard that only a poopsocking sweatlord streamer could do it
>Mystery reward for completing is a room with Black person Black person Black person on the walls
>streamer banned
>I laugh
Then don't play the Black person Black person Black person dungeon. You act as if there aren't thousands upon thousands of maps and game modes people have created for other games that actually have thought and effort put into them.
xbox live made online gaming more accessible for normies
I'm amazed by the amount of people in this thread claiming that changing the focus from PVE to PVP is the only way to save the genre, even tough every single MMO that tired to do that is dead, dying or became a niche with less than 100k players.
The amount of people that want a hardcore PVP MMO can't sustain a single server, even less a entire game. Anyone that gives a shit about PVP would rather play a PVP game that focus just on that and nothing else.
The way to save MMOS isn't PVP, but adding more sandbox elements and promoting socialization among players that isn't just direct confrontation. PVE is way more suited to the task than PVP ever was and the fact there isn't a single big PVP MMO left is the proof of it.
I'd fix it by not making anymore of them
There's this new MMORPG preview on Youtube called Chrono Odyssey that has Elden Ring / Dark Souls combat and environment. But people around the MMO websites are already saying that it's bad since it's from South Korea and it has the worst kind of microtransactions.
It's also coming to PS5 so I don't expect it to have very complex systems or many abilities
Ping issues will keep them from ever being competent action games so you're stuck with doing shit you can macro in two seconds for 2000 hours. It's the same realm of autism as speedrunning, but with no skill. Considering the mmo community scorns anything that tries to do something better, I don't think you can save it. Especially now that the glue holding it together are fricking ERP paypigs.
World so massive that finding other players would take like [insert big number here] of irl days
No one is buying into your shtick griefers - you've lost
All mmo sucks because its the same shit
>Spawn, do scripted tutorial, suddenly world is going to end you're the chosen on
>Go to main hub/city now every quest is just some moron fetch quest, collect 100 leaves repeat
>Want to ride a horse, pay 9.99$
>Want to get better armor, go beat this boss with 99999999 health or pay 9.99$
>Want to unlock this cool magic, oops look like u didn't bought our 20$ expansion dlc winter map
The only good mmo i can think of is not a mmo and it's dark souls
Bring back Wizardry Online
What I'm getting from this thread, and every single time we've had this thread, is that most people don't WANT to play an MMO. They never wanted to play an MMO.
Most people in this thread got into MMORPGs because they wanted to play a single-player RPG, but the AI just wasn't there at the time for them to have a believable adventure that could look remotely human-like enough.
So they played the games made to be played as a team by themselves. Eventually, all MMORPG companies catered to them because this experience is pretty braindead easy to make. Just take out all the group elements and make all the content simple and linear.
The question I have to these types now is: Why are you in the MMO thread? You have your single player RPGs that have pretty believable AI right now, why continue to make your miserable suggestions that only ruin the genre more by insisting everyone else who plays the game is evil and should be kept in a bubble away from you while you play the multiplayer content with what are effectively bots?
Why do you think you're a woman?
Exactly this.
>You have your single player RPGs that have pretty believable AI right now,
Uh no. What people want is log horizon/sao.
I want the MMO in Moonlight Sculptor (They turned it into a dogshit mobile mmo that already shut down lmao). If I can't play the game as a crafter I don't want to play it. My only hope for this is ashes of creation and I KNOW that shit is going to fail hard
Can you explain a bit about moonlight scultpor.
Imagine a game where you can be almost anything. In the story the MC is a sculptor because he wants to craft things to sell to make as much money as he can. He finds a class book and advances into a rare class and eventually unlocks a unique/legendary class. A large part of the story focuses on him doing his class quests and his class abilities are a main focus of the story. He's proficient in combat as well due to his class bonuses, though he plays more as an assassin due to his main weapon being a chisel that wants to land crits on weakpoints. Early on there's a lot of fleshing out of a story like the MC goes to a river he the river overflows and washes away all the people who were chilling by the shore and he sees another player who's a fisherman doing his class quests IIRC. The fisherman played more like a control class due to being able to use their hook to reel or fling people. I think he could still do other crafting/gathering but doing so means you won't have the unique class bonuses so it'll always be better to go to a blacksmith for plate gear instead of making it yourself but learning it allows you to polish the gear for temp buffs so there was still a point in branching out.
Class based crafting is interesting. Some games have profession systems but they are completely horizontal, and you also end up making garbage that no one wants.
>He finds a class book and advances into a rare class and eventually unlocks a unique/legendary class.
This seems kind of cool, like what if in order to unlock skills they are tied to drops, you can't just pick one. If there are 12 different professions but getting a drop for even a single one takes 10 hours, that would be kind of cool, although people would probably complain. Making them untradeable would be cooler too.
>This seems kind of cool, like what if in order to unlock skills they are tied to drops, you can't just pick one
From what I remember the skills were tied to class quests and from then on he had to train them so they would increase in proficiency. I think each class was different, like mages could learn from other mages but their powerful spells were in grimoires/spellbooks and had to be gotten through other methods like dungeon crawling.
There's an entire genre of these type of stories. There's one where the MC starts off as a florist and the way he ends up unlocking his rare/secret class is by cataloguing all of the flowers in a zone until he's left with 1 more that's hidden and I think he only found it by basically dying and finding a portal as a ghost.
Big issue with all that is dataminers. MMO's need that mystery to make it feel exciting.
Well mmo's can have server side code that is explicit to the server right. You can only mine client side stuff. Also having things skills attached to drop rate has value on its own because it suddenly becomes rare.
>most people in this thread
I disregarded the rest of your shitpost because of this hilarious level projecting. Not everyone is like you sperg. Not even close.
You are awkwardly asocial but then you play a social experience wondering why you're forced to be social. cringe.
>here
why are you linking some youtube video you brainless NPC? make your own opinions you moron.
here
now you can stop spamming these threads with your shit takes moron
>I want to play the game solo
then play a single player game you fricking idiot. thanks for linking me some shithead youtuber who is equally as moronic.
playing in a continuous shared world is not playing solo. Accept it or keep crying like a b***h that people like what you don't like, I couldn't care less.
because you're not worth the effort when it's been addressed countless times. Face it, you're just filtered by the bare realities of any MMO. Otherwise, you would be playing ffxiv or retail wow, there's no further argument.
I leveled to max level in guild wars 2 the weekend it came out and I did it solo, and only ever played the game solo. There was literally zero benefit to playing with people, if anything they just slow you down in guild wars 2.
its unfixable
computing has fundamentally changed and everything is datamined and figured out and posted online on day one
if i had to come up with a solution it would be to have more randomly generated elements so people are forced to work together in the moment to figure things out because its not documented anywhere outside of the game
This is the true answer. Datamining and the hyper emergence of social media/youtube ruined everything. Everything is solved and minmaxed on day one and even if you don't, you'll fall behind and be playing by yourself, which basically means you're not playing an MMO.
Unless they make players sign an NDA upon playing a game that prohibits sharing any form of info about the game OUTSIDE of it, it'll never happen. And even if something wild like this was made, people would just break the NDA anyway. It's brainrot. People unironically stole the fun away from themselves and you can't get it back. Multiplayer games are now either all skill, or nothing.
You can't because you wont be making one that hasn't mass appeal and every MMO with mass appeal sucks by default
>solo levelling
>instancing
>breadcrumb trails
>NPCs dickriding the PC
>EZ fast travel
>etc
All of these were touted as 'advancements' to the genre despite making the act of playing them unrewarding, antisocial and brain dead. There's really too many of these shitty little things to even list, but the general idea is an attempt to expand the player base. There aren't enough people willing to play a real MMO to cover the costs of making one now, and so there will never be another one. Just loads of watered down shit for attention deprived morons. People might say that sort of content still exists in the end games of most mmos, but if it's a good thing that the endgame is challenging and requires teamwork and thought, why not make the whole game like that?
By not pretending every mmo needs to be on serparate shards/servers keeping everyone isolated instead of just having a few central high performaning servers in redundancy with proper culling techniques.
>Animal Crossing fishing
>Harvest Moon growing
>VN NPC story relationship stat growth
>Inject basic co-op combat system with swappable skills and equips
>Not ugly artstyle
>No campaign just character stories and exploration tied to different characters
>???
>Profit?
Is there already something like this? It amazes me that the non-battle content in so many games is worse than freeware VNs. These kinds of systems seem like content you can safely code nearly entirely separately and add a lot of satisfying content for little effort. The hardest part is making a lovable combat system but a lot of games have that but nothing to back it up. Probably the worst is when a game adds a good feature but destroys it by trying to drip feed it to you and lock stuff behind payments because the devs couldn't settle on charging for expansions/cosmetics
You need to force them into parties. Anyything that isnt a rat should destroy your anus so hard that you are forced to actually go talk to some other players to progress. All the issues MMOs have are from trying to appease to a bunch of casual homosexuals who whined that "well what if I dont have time to find a group give me solo content". No auto queues, no instances, no global chat, and everything should basically two shot you if you arent with friends.
and no fricking fast travel. walk your ass places.
Embers Adrift
Embers Adrift was great, classes were a bit boring though. waiting 3 hours for that bear to spawn was kino.
>How would you fix the MMO genre?
Flood the cash shop with countless thousands of lewd outfits, items, emotes, and also badass outfits, items, emotes, for both demographics of people playing my MMO. Also focus heavily on story-related content and plot, and don't give a shit at all about PvP late-game content because those sweaty losers who enjoy that shit don't matter to me.
any game with a cash shop is automatically shit.
>NOOOOOOO! YOU CAN'T GIVE YOU PLAYERS THE OPTIONAL PERSONAL CHOICE OF SPENDING THEIR OWN PRIVATELY EARNED MONEY ON ITEMS THAT ARE NOT ESSENTIAL TO THE GAME ITSELF! NOOOOOOO! STOP! I'M A POORhomosexual AND IT MAKES ME MAD THAT PEOPLE SPEND MONEY WHEN I'M SO POOR! AAAAAAAAAH! SAVE ME HOBOMAN!
I genuinely believe that separation between irl and inworld is sacred.
This gayboy too young to remember when games would give you options in game. any developer that spends time making assets not to put them in game as so earnable reward and instead cut them out to charge you extra is not worth your time.
Slippery slope. We now know it's not a fallacy but a reality. Games like WoW and Runescape have single handedly destroyed themselves by implementing direct P2W gold buying and they starting off with a non-offensive cash shop.
>destroyed themselves
>meanwhile in non-chud reality
This is the worst bait I've seen. The RS3 website counts EVERYONE interacting with runescape. This means it adds in RS3 players, OSRS players, RSC players, forum users and people chilling in the log-in page on clients. That number is currently 142.7k. Factor in people usually play mutiple clients, at minimum 2, it's more like 80-90k. Factor in 30-40% of these are bots you're looking at 50k genuine players
PoE isn't an MMO and they don't even claim to get that many players on league launches. This site is shit.
>game puts all the coolest items in the cash shop
>now anything you earn in-game is worthless trash
>no point in actually playing and therefore yes the game is shit
cash shop is fine, it's inferior, but it's fine, but ONLY IF you can earn cash currency by playing the game and interacting with it's core gameplay loop.
How's the fishing in ESO?
I might play it mainly for that.
Same as every other MMO, a shitty minigame that is completely worthless until you max it out.
>How would you fix the MMO genre?
introduce a rape mechanic
make it offline single player
finally an opinion I can get behind
You can't. MMOs need the right community to work. WOW stabbed the MMO genre with it's streamlining. Social media and the mainstreaming of gaming gave MMOs the killing blow.
Before a technical fix can be applied, you must first fix the people themselves. You can apply whatever measures to force players to be social , deter solo player, bring back that sense of discovery, etc but all of it will be meaningless if you consider that today's MMO players are severely oriented towards getting as much "value" out of their time, hardly any desire to meet and be social with randoms or to enjoy the journey rather than the destination.
There's no point of forcing parties if most will end up entering these games with their preestablished friends or communities, because why bother taking a risk with strangers.
The core of many if not all issues that exists in the genre stem from the people themselves and their inability to accept any other way.
MMO discussion is desiccated. No other genre is this dry.
Always the same talking points
>grouping
>journey
>publishers want money blah blah
>everyone copied wow blah blah
>social media
>endgame
>kids these days aren't interested
>I'm 30 and I have no time
>meaningful
>if only a developer would do this one thing
>nostalgia
>classes, races, raids
>trinity
>the internet died in 2007
Just like the man says, no problems, only solutions.
moron
Maybe people repeate the points because they are true? Have you considered that?
>Have you considered that?
I don't know what that's supposed to mean.
She's hitting on you, wants you to play ff14 with her, obviously.
I still don't get it. I'm getting to old for all these memes you homosexuals expect people to know.
You got into an argument with a he/she and he/she sent you a selfie for wiener sucking in ff14 or something, idk dude I'm an oldgay trying to keep up myself.
Here’s how you make a good MMO
1. Make a huge single player open world rpg.
2. Make the game have a huge focus on inter-player trading, kind of like path of exile.
3. Super autistic level of build variety.
4. Let players have customizable and programmable npc party members that are copies of other players and/or story npcs, and plan around everyone playing the entire game single player with npcs but let them play with eachother if they want.
So kind of like dragons dogma pawns
>Here’s how you make a good MMO
>1. Make a huge single player open world rpg.
You already failed
>Here’s how you make a good MMO
>1. Gas the israelites
>2. MMO no longer necessary due to global change
>here's how to make a good mmo
>design it around single player and allow botting
Are you fricking brain damaged or something?
Here's how you make a good MMO
1. Make a decent co-op game
2. Divide the drop rates by 20x