How would you fix Unova’s linearity? It forces a bunch of Pokemon to evolve way too late and kills the replayability.
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How would you fix Unovas linearity? It forces a bunch of Pokemon to evolve way too late and kills the replayability.
let the player have fly from the beginning and have loose leveling scaling based on badges earned
Did Masuda say in some interview they intentionally designed the game with being extremely linear in mind?
Specifically just the main path, to avoid creating Mt. Coronet again.
>finish up Celestic Town
>game is pointing me to go to Canalave
>could just take the shortcut right to the left to head back to Eterna
>… except I can’t, because I need the Canalave badge to move boulders
The strength boulders here serve no purpose for blocking off the snow routes to the north either, because the area above is still blocked off by arbitrary galactic grunts until you’ve finished up the other lakes. Mt. Coronet is a mess of a design and Gamefreak didn’t want the player to explore Sinnoh- they just wanted you to click fly and warp around the disjointed map.
It’s no wonder why Masuda wanted to change it, because Sinnoh’s layout went full moron after three gens where paths looped and connected intuitively.
Forgot pic of the area in question
>Implying anyone would have taken the path from Celestic Town to Canalave without fly
>Especially in DP where you need to get the badge for surf first
The absolute state of sinnoh haters lmao
>Sinnohgays are all fly drones who don’t want to explore
thanks for proving the point
Exploration is for stuff you haven’t seen yet anon
>haven’t seen this area in full, being pointed from the route indicated by the town I just visited
>Fuego Ironworks is accessible by surf on the way back from Eterna; would encourage a detour if allowed to travel backwards to Jubilife on foot
Ironworks is accessible by surf on the way back from Eterna
Not if you take the shortcut, which everyone who didn’t fly would have taken
>Implying anyone would have taken the path from Celestic Town to Canalave without fly
I would have. The game rewarding teleporting from point A to point B rather than traveling is pretty compelling evidence for why Masuda ended up designing Unova the way he did, though.
>fly to jubilife
>immediately after canalave, fly back to the valor lake to fight the same galactic shitmons
>then back to the verity lake to fight the same galactic shitmons
>then back to
Forgot pic of the area in question so you can actually access the snow routes (the boulders were pointless and it’s actually gated by a plot flag)
>after the distortion world plot you’re dumped relatively near sunyshore, at Giratina’s lake
>except you need to fly back to sandgem for a 2 minute exposition with Rowan
Platinum’s progression is abysmal.
>Towns actually being alive with things happening in them instead of one time locations you never go back to is… LE BAD
have a nice day omg
That's correct. Masuda admitted that Unova was where they started intentionally dumbing down the games for zoomers.
Ok discord
the roadblock for Skyarrow Bridge that leads to Nuvema Town is completely pointless and makes the game worse.
someone needs to count how many times BW will make an npc walk you down a route or into a building. it’s so fricking boring to replay
there's nothing to fix, just make more side areas
bw2 somehow fixes this by giving you the fully evolved pokemon
I always felt like the linearity of Unova was a meme made by people just looking at the map as a whole and not the individual routes. I don't see how pic related is any more or less linear than any other route in any other region.
Unova also has a ton of caves and otherwise optional areas that are some of the biggest in the series.
>Chargestone Cave
>Twist Mountain
>Challenger's Cave
>Desert Resort's ruins thing
>the best victory road in BW2
And other shit like hidden grottos or whatever.
>I always felt like the linearity of Unova was a meme made by people just looking at the map as a whole and not the individual routes.
most of the complaints leveled against gen 5 are memes from people who didn't play it.
It’s pretty similar to gens 2 and 4 in that regard
Except gen 5 also has memes about pretending it’s the best thing in the world (specifically B2W2)
>Except gen 5 also has memes about pretending it’s the best thing in the world
So exactly like gen 2 and 4
I don’t see it nearly as often for 2 and 4, they have nothing even close to the B2W2 circlejerk among poketubers
nah the gen 2 criticism is legit
Not when people claim important trainers being overleveled is a design flaw, especially since they were in gen 1 too.
Only the criticism about most literalwho trainers being underleveled and the Kanto gyms being a cakewalk is legitimate.
Basically you should never listen to level cap nuzlockegays about gens 1 and 2 because their way of playing goes directly against those games’ design. You were never supposed to fight Lance with level 50 mons
>You were never supposed to fight Lance with level 50 mons
>NO YOU'LL BE UNDERLEVELED REEEE
Badge Boost exists for a reason
Shit's OP as frick
That, and you’re better than the AI, not to mention you have stat experience while it doesn’t, and you have what it takes to create much better sets as well.
And if you want to play on easy mode the game hands you three (four in GS) overpowered legendaries that will be level 40 which is a bit higher than your team will naturally be for the league
You can very easily beat the league while being 10 levels below them, hell, in gen 1 you’ll be level 45 at the league and Blue’s ace is level 65, that’s a 20 levels difference and the league is still a cakewalk in those games if you don’t grind
the individual routes are linear too.
>Unova also has a ton of caves and otherwise optional areas that are some of the biggest in the series
not really.
>not really.
damn, that changes everything
It doesn't change anything. The game was always linear and barely has any exploration. Even your own cherrypicked example is completely linear the first time you visit it then you need to backtrack just to go into another linear small cave.
Cope
Can you define linear? I'm thinking of other routes in other games and most of them are pretty much just a straight line with a branching path or two, even some of the best routes in the game like Hoenn's jungle routes are "linear" if you're being that liberal with the word.
>not really
Why lie?
>Wellspring Cave
>Castelia Sewers
>Relic Passage + Relic Castle's hidden Voclarona boss
>Mistralton Cave
>Reversal Mountain
>Seaside Cave
>Clay Tunnel
>Giant Chasm
>Abyssal Ruins
This isn't even all of them. Objectively speaking, Unova has probably the single largest amount of both caves and optional areas to visit in the series.
>Why lie?
Because it's Gen 5.
They're trolling anon. Also don't forget the Nature Reserve
>Can you define linear?
Most routes look like that though? Give me an example of a non linear route.
When did I claim most routes are non linear? The problem with Unova is that the entire region’s map is linear. Kanto has linear routes but it’s way fricking better to play because the game actually lets you go in different interconnected directions while Unova doesn’t.
>When did I claim most routes are non linear? The problem with Unova is that the entire region’s map is linear.
okay so why did you go to the trouble of editing a picture of a route
i smell backpedaling
But the part where you're given the most free reign to go everywhere you want is easily the worst part of the game because all it does it make you fight shitty samey trainers over and over again unless you actively skip it. If your main point is that it's possible to skip a lot of it, then that's arguably true but wouldn't it be better to have well designed content instead?
>When did I claim most routes are non linear?
So linearity is only a problem when its Unova?
>he problem with Unova is that the entire region’s map is linear
Yes, the map, because it shows the most direct path from one town to the next, if the actual routes you experience in gameplay are no different from that of "less linear" routes, what exactly is your issue with Unova's map design other than....literally not liking how the map looks?
You also completely dodged my point about the caves, for some reason.
all games that aren't gen 1 or 9 are linear but it's only a problem in 5 for some reason, yes
Gen 5 has the most severe case of it.
they're all the same
lol no. The only other region that comes close to unova’s linearity is kalos
>The only other region that comes close to unova’s linearity is kalos
You're joking right? Not only does Kalos exceed it by leaps and bounds due to it's lack of optional areas. Alola makes them both look like open world games.
If Kalos lacks optional areas then so does Unova.
And your logic behind that is?
Because you can count the extra areas yourself and see that Kalos has next to none.
name a single optional area in Galar
The only two optional areas galar babies will point out are DLC and paid only lol
Kanto is literally the only game in the series besides gen 9 that lets you do this you absolute fricking moron.
>B-but Johto lets me tackle 3 whole gyms by any order!
You're still forced to go to Chuck and it's optimal to get Fly more than not.
Why did you go out of your way to remove parts of the map? You have the ability to Surf before you can progress beyond this route.
the game makes you go to all of those locations and they’re full of boring npc interruptions
i feel like the same applies to Alola. people saying the game has no exploration sound like they ignored all the optional areas
The loudest people are the ones who just speed through a game and ignore so much optional shit that could help you or could just be fun to find, and i'm not just talking about pokemon here
>and i'm not just talking about pokemon here
what other games come to mind?
The problem is that not including post game Alola has something like 2 or 3 optional areas?
>haina desert
>ten carat hill
>hau'oli cemetery
>malie city outer cape
>mele mele sea
>kalae bay
>most surfing locations in general
more than just 3
When will the memes get funny
There is no nonlinear Pokemon game, not even RBY
This meme is so tiring
while you're correct, it would be stupid to say rby is as linear as usum
Really that depends on what you value more. RBY let you take a few gyms put of order, but basically every path available always leads to story progress. USUM have only 1 story path, but a ton more pokemon variety in side areas
Nta but i always felt like people overrated RBY's "nonlinearty", you're still very much locked in what order you do 90% of the game in, there's no real significant change gained from fighting Koga before Sabrina, especially since you need to clear Slyph Co. before Sabrina anyways.
Naturally, but I think people really latch onto the idea because, outside of SV, which missed the point with its lack of gym badge scaling, that one part of RBY is the only hint that Pokémon totally could do nonlinearity, and it would be a great fit.
SV’s lack of scaling is what makes it actually fun to replay. If I wanted all the gyms to have no difficulty I’d just play BW.
Sure, it’s fun until you have to go back and do the early game parts you skipped.
the only nonlinear games are SV
And it's also the worst game in the series
best*
but bw are the most linear games and the worst
I wouldn't
>But Linearity bad!
Don't care.
>just consoom! stop asking for better product!!
>linearity = bad product
based moron
In the case of Pokemon, yes.
This so much
The switch games are all dogshit regardless of whether they are linear or not. It has no effect on the quality
how does linearity and late evolution levels correlate in any way?
Evolution timing wasn't the issue, locking aura sphere and flash cannon to postgame was
What insane man gives you lucario right at the start but witholds his best moves until level 70+?
By giving it interesting routes and secrets to explore, which it already does. The only people that complain about the linearity of it, are b***h ass zoomers parroting out of touch genwunners.
What about the routes are interesting?
The games literally came out more than 13 years ago. If anyone's out of touch, it's you.
Doesnt need fixing, every single route has a ton of side content and life to it, to change it is to kill it.
>How would you fix Unova’s linearity?
Don't fix what ain't broken.
Linearity is good for Pokemon games.
The battling is what matters, not MUH EXPLORATION, and linearity lets them craft a more focused experience.
No linearity gets the bullshit of SV where you ended up fighting shit way under your level unless you look up a progression guide
Open world is trash but optional areas and HM backtracking are based
>unless you look up a progression guide
or you know, talk to the pokecenter girl who tells you where to go but i guess you never played the game in the first place so you wouldnt know
it's supposed to be linear. it's a game with a story.
So why is SV story better but also its non linear?
bait used to be believable
He’s right though.
SV story
>multiple daily threads with heated theorycrafting
BW story
>*cricket noises*
>"uhh i want to frick N"
>theorycrafting
You mean endless whining over "MY BELIEF IS CORRECT YOUR BELIEF IS WRONG" because Khu threw a wrench into everyone's beliefs with his imagination nothingburgers?
In another words, interesting story that kept people talking. Yes.
...And it took a dubious leaker to spark that discussion, otherwise people would have been open-and-shut "huh, Arven's got a point, this IS weird! but just like he shrugs it off because we don't have conclusive evidence yet, I guess it's time to buckle down and wait for the DLC, it's unlikely we'll get any good conclusions until then since we know so little about Terapagos or what's really going on with the Tera Crystals."
If the Unova game turns out to be BW3 I'm pretty sure it would draw more discussions and theorycrafting than SV ever did.
That would be awesome, hopefully they will talk about the original dragon more.
>the game I made up in my head might have a better story than SV!
weird cope but ok
It's true that SuMo and SV have better stories than BW/2 though.
I think the only reason anyone gives gen 5 shit about linearity is because the map doesn't hide it. It's clearly designed as a circle, and even though the routes and main game quest are about as linear as most other Pokémon games, when looking at the unova map it's immediately obvious that you would move through most of the map from any given starting point. Show that same person a map of hoenn and, even though gen 3 is just about as linear as gen 5, it's not immediately obvious how to progress through the map from any given starting point.
TOTAL UNOVA DEATH
Nuke Unova. Unleash flesh-eating virus pathogen on Unova. Earthquake Unova into disrepair. Bring Arceus's judgment down upon Unova. Detonate a dormant super volcano beneath Unova. Declare total war on Unova and bombard it mercilessly with bombers. Unleash a black hole in the center of Unova. Obliterate Unova with a giant meteor. Release a zombie apocalypse on Unova.
Linearity isn't a bad thing, look at SV and SwSh and their "openness".
What “openness” is there in SwSh besides the Wild Area and DLC areas? Galar is a straight line.
>Linearity isn't a bad thing
Yes it is.
>look at SV and SwSh and their "openness"
Both of these games are way more fun to replay than BW/BW2 so I don’t see your point
So what was the point of your response? Just disagreement with everything?
You didn’t actually give any substance to your argument that open world is bad so what else am I supposed to respond with?
You could have elaborated on your point on why linearity is bad. I'm interested in that.
>You could have elaborated on your point on why linearity is bad
>It forces a bunch of Pokemon to evolve way too late and kills the replayability.
That's a problem with Unova pokemon specifically, every other game didn't have that much of an issue as it seems to be only Unova that has pokemon that evolve extremely late. They "tried" to rectify that by making Braviary/Mandibuzz and Volcarona obtainable early in BW2 but that's a bandaid approach. This isn't a linearity problem but a Gen 5 problem specifically.
>o-open world is a-actually b-bad!!
kek i can just smell the tears
Open world has always been bad, anyone who ever pretended otherwise is a homosexual
scrap it entirely
put masuda and james turner's heads on pikes outside gamefreak's head office
pretend it never existed
There's a Unova thread on /vp/ everyday and it's the same damn responses. What gives?
>It forces a bunch of Pokemon to evolve way too late
How does linearity affect Pokemon evolution?
>and kills the replayability
That doesn’t make sense. Pokemon’s replayability mainly stems from being able to make different teams using all the available Pokemon, not from the map design. It’s not like the series is known for sprawling open world freedom.
> How does linearity affect Pokemon evolution?
If the game is linear then there will be Pokemon that are only obtainable near the end of the game, where there levels are already high, meaning evolution levels have to be even higher to justify Pokemon with multiple stages. Which is why the game is filled with moronic shit like Deino/Pawniard/Mienfoo/Rufflet which evolve at absurdly high levels to the point where they’re mostly pointless to even bother using. Meanwhile in a region like Kanto practically every Pokemon is available by the midway point of the game so nothing needs to have moronic evolution requirements and you have more choice.
>That doesn’t make sense.
It makes perfect sense. If I want to replay SV I can go in dozens of different orders of gyms/bases/titans based on how I want to change up my playthrough from last time, making the experience way more varied. With BW I’m just mashing A through the same hallways in the same order with the same 3 new Pokemon each route that I did last time. It’s fricking boring to play.
>y-you can make different teams
And how the frick am I supposed to do that if every single time I replay BW I can’t use something like Bisharp or Mandibuzz until the very end of the game thanks to the game’s forced linearity?
You still haven’t actually explained why open world is bad btw.
>Meanwhile in a region like Kanto practically every Pokemon is available by the midway point of the game so nothing needs to have moronic evolution requirements and you have more choice.
That's not a good thing, in fact that's a very good indicator that the game lacks Pokemon variety. After all they cut like 40 Pokemon from the game and had to scramble to fill some of the encounter tables. There's a reason the Oddish/Bellsprout lines seem to basically be used as filler. This also means that by the midpoint of the game you will hardly see any new Pokemon on trainers, and the weird limitations of the trainer classes means you'll be seeing way too many of the same Pokemon over and over again.
>With BW I’m just mashing A through the same hallways in the same order with the same 3 new Pokemon each route that I did last time. It’s fricking boring to play.
So play XY instead, where you have 10 Pokemon on the same maps you went over and over again. Or Gen 1, where you get 3 new Pokemon on the same awful trainers no matter which order you do the non-linear stuff in.
>You still haven’t actually explained why open world is bad btw.
A JRPG is very defined by how the difficulty curve of the game works. Without a linear progression, there's no real way to make a challenge sensible for where you are in the game. You either end up with content that is way too easy for your level, or content that is virtually impossible for your level. While there are ways to deter players into a linear progression while still allowing freedom, Fallout New Vegas is a good example, Pokemon has been pretty inept at non-linearity since the very beginning. It's not hyperbole to say the worst parts of Gen 1-3 are the non-linear sections. That's also not to say that GF is good at making linear games, BW is probably the closest they've gotten to something like Chrono Trigger but that's a really bad comparison since there's still a gigantic gap between the two.
>That's not a good thing
Being able to explore and catch different Pokemon with your own agency instead of being funneled down hallways that force feed you 3 new Pokemon every route is a bad thing?
Sorry, some of us like playing video games that involve actual interaction, not idle games.
>So play XY instead,
That's a good idea. It is a better game than BW.
>Or Gen 1, where you get 3 new Pokemon on the same awful trainers no matter which order you do the non-linear stuff
As opposed to BW which does the same thing except linear, making it way more boring to play. Good idea, I will play Gen 1. I'm glad you're conceding Gen 5 isn't very good.
>Without a linear progression, there's no real way to make a challenge sensible for where you are in the game
Then why is SV drastically more challenging than BW? Gen 5 is literally the easiest gen in the series outside of Gen 6. And they're both the most linear gens. It's almost like you're full of shit!
>If the game is linear then there will be Pokemon that are only obtainable near the end of the game
This happens with literally every Pokemon game, you fool.
>the game is filled with moronic shit like Deino/Pawniard/Mienfoo/Rufflet which evolve at absurdly high levels
That’s irrelevant right now because it has nothing to do with linearity. But the high levels for some Pokemon is one complaint I’ve always had about Gen 5.
>If I want to replay SV I can go in dozens of different orders of gyms/bases/titans
Cherry-picking. That’s because SV is open world. You don’t have that level of freedom with the other games.
Also, I’m not sure if this is true, but I’ve heard SV locks everything’s levels instead of making enemies level with you, which means you’re essentially railroaded into a certain order, unless you want to grind for levels for the higher-level parts of the game and then be terribly overleveled for the other parts. But again, not sure if that’s true.
>And how the frick am I supposed to do that if every single time I replay BW I can’t use something like Bisharp or Mandibuzz
Once again, the same thing applies to literally every game in the series. I want to use Sneasel in GS, but I can’t because it’s available in the very last zone. Or I want to use Crabominable in SM but I can’t because it can only evolve in Victory Road. And so on.
>You still haven’t actually explained why open world is bad btw.
I never said it was bad, you idiot.
>If the game is linear then there will be Pokemon that are only obtainable near the end of the game, where there levels are already high, meaning evolution levels have to be even higher to justify Pokemon with multiple stages. Which is why the game is filled with moronic shit like Deino/Pawniard/Mienfoo/Rufflet which evolve at absurdly high levels to the point where they’re mostly pointless to even bother using. Meanwhile in a region like Kanto practically every Pokemon is available by the midway point of the game so nothing needs to have moronic evolution requirements and you have more choice.
This is not an issue of linearity. It's an availability issue. Nothing stops them from having every Pokemon available at an earlier point. This is true regardless of how linear the game is.
SV, as I understand, doesn't let you catch the Paradoxes until after finishing the three storylines. Same shit, in the most open game.
Obviously that's not to say that SV is as bad about it or anything, I'm just saying that you're misattributing the issue.
And yes, the evolutions feed to that too, though in that case it's just plain incompetence. The Pokemon very strictly adhere to a pacing with evolution, to make you use the earlier stages after catching, but that shit should not apply to the endgame mons.
Frick, because they refuse to change this stuff too, this affects future games as well with these mons.
You just know they will replace the center of the map with some dumb wild area
>make the game actually good
yeah they should not do that
discord thread
>just consoom! stop asking for better product!!
BW STILL makes yawngay, discord and the sharty seethe to this very day.
I love the part of gen 5’s story where all the gym leaders come to save the day against the sages who didn’t actually do anything the entire game
Unova gets a lot of shit about being linear, but in reality it has some of the best routes in the franchise. They're not as linear as they're made out to be in the map, and it has great dungeons.
>but in reality it has some of the best routes in the franchise
how
if someone said hoenn had the best routes in the franchise I'd believe them but unova's routes are all completely average at best
This route is amazing, and it's right at the start.
My personal favorite is the route that leads into Victory Road in BW2.
>This route is amazing
Yeah, maybe if you stare at it like that on Bulbapedia. In reality when you actually play the game it's just three different linear paths because of the roadblocks.
Shit taste anon, it's one of the best designed routes, makes since it was their last 2D game since the majority of the routes in the game were above average at the least.
>it's one of the best designed routes
how
I can name half a dozen routes from hoenn or kalos or even alola that are better designed than that
Favorite route have always been a fricking moronic thing. Theyre are just fricking routes. Theres like 6 trainers and 4 items there. What the frick makes it "amazing"? Its like picking a favorite toothbrush or favorite brick in your wall.
What makes it amazing is how many things it has to make you want to traverse it again.
First you have the items you can only access in a certain season.
Then you have the water at the bottom that makes you want to return once you obtain Surf.
After getting Surf you get access to a new area then see the place you need Waterfall and another season item which, again, makes you want to return to it.
That's good route design. It's not a route that you just pass through once. It rewards you for fully exploring it.
>What makes it amazing is how many things it has to make you want to traverse it again.
???
you're forced to traverse it two different times at the start of the game (with a single linear path each time) and then the only reason to come back is to go collect the contrived legendary in the postgame. Nothing about this is special.
And at that point, no route is special.
In fact, why does it even matter if a game is linear or not, it's all shitty areas all the way down.
Just remove everything and turn the whole game into a Battle Frontier-esque area that simulates Pokemon battles or some shit.
We're well on the way for that anyways, imagine GF putting effort into a game.
a hoenngay behind every shitpost
Entralink forest will be the hub world of the new Unova game.
Mark my words…
Turn Unova into one city, as implied with the development of Route 4 and Join Avenue. Turn it into an urban sandbox.