I feel like a lot of fantasy settings uses that "consensus based reality" or "the collective unconsciousness" to justify the magic in their setting and keep it feeling magical. The issue is what most people believe is moronic. A lot of problems in the world are a result of denying reality. Believing it makes it real is also a common tactic to make folk story creatures canon.
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Name two games.
Warhammer 40.000 and it's many rpg adaptions.
Mage the Ascension.
That's the only two that immediately come to mind for me, so OP is probably still a homosexual calling it "normal"
Two more: Ars Magica, Unknown Armies.
OWoD
NWoD
Great. Talk about those instead of vague "setting" wankery.
That doesn't count as two. You die in 7 days.
No, because the issue with how it is used in general, not specifically how it is implemented in any particular setting.
You are autistic and get upset when things don't fall into precise categories. You want every thread to be "such-and-such general", and you want every post to relate only to traditional games, never something like worldbuilding that can be used in both playing games and writing fiction.
This board is slow, and people making threads like this aren't stopping you from discussing the things you want to in a thread of your own, but you're a pissy little b***h throwing a tantrum because your fries are touching your peas.
>The issue is what most people believe is moronic.
Welcome to the Technocratic Union, comrade.
Play Orobouros, the world is a collective dream of dragons, magic is the ability to influence their Dreams. Transform yourself in a bear and they'll now dream of you, the bear - if they remember you as a bear, you may stay one though.
"Ork weapons work because they believe they work!"
Okay, then why don't they believe really hard that they can shoot nukes from their fingers? And that they are invulnerable?
Because as anyone who's discussed Pascal's Wager in Philosophy 101 could tell you, people can't just choose what they believe in.
>people can't just choose what they believe in
sounds like bullshit though
What is the subconscious?
has nothing to do with belief.
Has everything to do with it. Your subconscious makes all your decisions for you, then tricks you into thinking it was a conscious decision. Free will is a myth, religion is a joke, we're all slaves to something greater etc etc.
lmao that's just a whole lot of I am 14 and this is deep.
free will is absolutely a thing, you could choose not to reply to me despite being compelled to do so.
religion is important, not like you're capable of understanding.
They can, it's just a bad idea if we're given Kant's conclusion that - if there's an infinite god - infinite good is objective reality and evil is condemned to banality.
1. The effect is not anywhere close to absolute, Ork weapons are still notoriously innacurate and prone to failure or misfires
2. Orks still compensate with genuine, if subconscious, technological expertise, it's why they get more technologically powerful as they progress- it's not because they believe in themselves, it's because there's more mekboyz working on exponentially more powerful tech together
2. Orks cannot convince themselves of something on the drop of a hat, much like you cannot
Consensus based reality is how I run my homebrew Shadowrun game, and yes, it is absolutely batshit insane. Monsters are real, pro-wrestlers are martial demigods, Coca-Cola is a healing tincture brewed by shamans, gods own corporations, and Vtubers have to confront the fact that their online persona has manifested as a spirit of chaos in the real world. It's stupid and it's fun as frick BECAUSE humans are dumbass idiots.
If I recall, the Shadowrun setting started normal then became crazy because of a magical event.
>Vtubers have to confront the fact that their online persona has manifested as a spirit of chaos in the real world.
My oshi is a bulwark of sanity and order in a world gone mad and I will broke no arguments on the matter.
Your oshi is the human behind the screen, and she needs your help with the developing spirit who keeps hijacking her stream and impersonating her, her actions and words at home not coming out of her model's mouth. If you don't act quickly, it will physically manifest, and stopping it will be impossible.
But if you don't stop it, the persona of the vtuber will become real. If you care more about seeing your cute shark/demon/bunny/whatever in the flesh, unbound by human flaws... Is there a way to save both the spirit and the human?
I read about what happened to disney and it wasn't any good.
Unknown Armies has a good explanation based on the concept of universal reincarnation. Basically, once humanity's collective subconscious matures enough, the universe resets and gets reshaped according to the sum of the collective subconscious of the previous one. This solves the issue of world being too malleable, since while the change to pillars of collective subconscious do influence the reality, any truly major changes only happen after the new rebirth of the universe.
My issue is there is nothing to discover in a world without objective truth. If everyone believe the world is flat, why will there ever be evidence to contradict it? Why will there be a need to discover germ theory? Maybe if everything started in a world of objective reality but eventually the world will "self-correct". I guess in the Mage the Ascension that the rules of the world is made by a bunch of mini-demiurges.
Mage doesn't have consensus reality as the governing principle of the universe, it's actually a recent development stemming from the Renaissance, and it has very hard limits, and also it does not supercede the preferences of powerful archmagi. Gravity doesn't come from human belief in Mage, it comes from the planetary nature of Earth, it is pre-human in origin. Earth and the other planets are living spirit beings, entirely independent of human consciousness. True Fae are aliens with no connection to humanity. You're a stinking dalit who needs to go back to poostan at once.
That's what the principle of cosmic reincarnation solves. The world has hard, objective truths and the game's main high level conflict is trying to either defend them or change them. Plus, any ultra self correcting actions are matter of ending the universe, something that's outside the games purview.
Surely that is one of the principle jokes of Mage, that the Technocracy managed to create the concept of scientific experimentation, which in the reality of the game is itself just a tool to convince people to accept the rules it thinks are most useful to it. In the setting plot Mage's version of the end times was that people had become so cynical about the world that they couldn't believe that any new scientific developments were as impactful as the Technocracy wanted, and the world was spiraling into stagnation.
>My issue is there is nothing to discover in a world without objective truth.
I don’t understand how you can think that. A consensus-based reality isn’t wholly known to any of its inhabitants because they don’t (and can’t) know the minds of every other inhabitant. There will be things that each person has never encountered, and encountering them will shape and change how they view the world—subtly changing the world itself. But people also react to the same stimuli in very different ways, so there’s an infinite possibility of HOW that change occurs and what it affects. And with the sheer number of people in the world, any individual’s response is going to be so subtle in how it changes the universe as to be unnoticeable. At scale, sure, you’ll see trends occur, exposure to those trends in the populace, and some kind of a response…but fluid dynamics is a b***h and a half to model, and that’s without the capacity of the fluid molecules to suddenly snap and decide to start murdering each other for no reason.
>Unknown Armies has a good explanation
No it doesn't.
There are no fantasy settings like this. When pressed, you named 40k, which doesn't work this way, and Mage, which does, and is obviously what you made the thread to complain about, but Mage isn't a fantasy game, it's just alt history. Go away stinkreet, your filthy sewer people are unwelcome here.
>"don't discuss traditional games on a traditional games board"
Just frick off. Find something else to do and frick off. You're not welcome here anymore.
A supernatural power can't be justified by using natural terms or lines of thinking, and in a fantasy game, it doesn't need to be justified anyway. The supernatural only exists in our world as a fantastical concept, so by including magic in a work, it is inherently magical. What the power is called, meta knowledge of what it takes for a player to get that power for their character, the resources needed to use that power, the immediate effects of that power, and any secondary consequences of that power's use are all that matters to the game.
The issue is people tend to be incapable of separating perception from state of being, incapable of thinking in terms of a fantastical world as opposed to our own; they ascribe things that happened and were thought to happen in our real world to a fantastic world that functions and would function completely differently, and don't realize that it's impossible to explain such things in our natural terms with our natural senses.
Another issue is people tend to forget that genre addresses how a work relates to our world (nonfiction, history, fiction, fantasy), or worse, will forget how broad the terms of genre are as a whole, and ascribe redundant pigeonholes for a work by using moronic buzzwords or mislabeled terms.
How some moronic homosexuals all wrapped up in their feelings and perceptions will never change what things are, and how things are in our world should never change the liberties a game designer may take for aspects of their fantasy game that isn't even set in our real world.
>The issue is what most people believe is moronic. A lot of problems in the world are a result of denying reality.
Seems to work fine for most of them.
It works until it doesn't.
>This thread is about traditional games, I swear!
go back
It's especially strange since our reality is everything but consesus-based reality or any kind of collective unconsciousness. Earth is a colony and magick with a K is real. Stop trusting the science falsely so called and for the sake of God stop believing Hollywood movies.
Also anti-magic is fun both in the real world and in games.
Salem witch trials. Humans manifest stupid shit all the time.
>consensus based reality
Hate to break it to you, but modern science has put forth the theory that reality is, to some degree, driven by consciousness. It explains why quantum particles are so wonky, and lines up with the fact that our brains don't actually project shit our eyes take visual stimuli and construct an image in our brains which we call sight.
That out of the way, magic being able to do shit that you can't do in real life (such as create and destroy matter or even something as simple as flinging fire from your fingertips at will) makes it magic, it's just that for the purposes of traditional GAMES you need MECHANICS to make things work, and it's easier to make a setting that justifies those mechanics than it is to have the two be independent of one another.
all the slit experiment proved was that photons need to be either a particle or a wave when they are measured.
They literally change if they're being observed or not, but you're ignoring the entire rest of the post where I point out that no, we don't actually "see" anything. All the things we "see" are just shit our brain made up using the information it gathered from our eyes.
No, that's medical, scientific fact. There have been peer-reviewed studies done on this. We know for a scientific fact that our actions are determined before we take them. Our unconscious mind plants those ideas we have consciously before we make any decisions.
>you could choose not to reply to me despite being compelled to do so.
Except that wouldn't be me choosing shit, that would be my unconscious mind making the decision before my conscious mind even had a say in the matter. Again, we have the science to back this up, and only delusion morons who think that free will not existing means anything and are upset that they aren't a speshul snowflake get mad about it.
>religion is important
newbie doesn't get the reference
You can affect your subconscious by conditioning yourself and actively curating what you feed to your subconsciousness, moron.
Yes, your conscious mind becomes aware of decisions made by your subconsciousness some time after the subconsciousness has already made the decision, and thinks that it made the decision on the spot, but that doesn't mean that free will doesn't exist. It means your brain is a laggy piece of shit.
The Copenhagen experiment has two interpretations:
Many-worlds and extermination.
Consciousness is inherently an agent of observation, which is all but identical to interaction.
Quantum effects? Single photons act like wrecking balls in sub-atomic domains.
You've been bamboozled by pop science magazines.
t. hard science homosexual who thought he could find the universe (biggest mistake of my life)
>I feel like a lot of fantasy settings uses that "consensus based reality" or "the collective unconsciousness" to justify the magic in their setting and keep it feeling magical.
In my setting the "collective unconsciousness" that forms reality is that of the sleeping deities. Sentient beings can affect reality if they have really strong wills or if a group of normies believes something really hard, but reality will always return to baseline of how the Sleeping Ones dream.
Sentient beings are essentially dreams that gained sentience within the dream.