I keep hearing the phrase "overdesigned" being used here alot when describing a character, usually in negative discourse. So what exactly makes a character "overdesigned?"
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I keep hearing the phrase "overdesigned" being used here alot when describing a character, usually in negative discourse.
Imagine you wake up to the sound of her giggling, you open your eyes and see that you're in a dimly lit chamber. As you try to move, you realize that your arms and legs are fastened to a crossbeam, spread apart. You also notice now that you are completely naked. She comes from around the corner, still giggling, before delivering swift, brutal kicks to your exposed, dangling testicles.
What do you do?
What the frick am i supposed to do here, i'm fastened to a crossbeam
you fricking moron you fricking buffoon you've railroaded the rp
I get out and kick her in the nuts
Shout "Woah!" with the force of a thousand suns.
Too many quirks. Too many conflicting ideas. Too visually busy.
>So what exactly makes a character "overdesigned?
When they are overly designed.
A lot of people use it wrong to describe things they simply don't like.
That being said - I'd say when it has too much going on. That's about it. A good example would be older Final Fantasy and BELTS. So many belts. Actually, you know what, any older JRPG and Belts. Japs seem to love belts.
>A lot of people use it wrong to describe things they simply don't like *proceeds to do exactly that*
moron
I'm pretty sure few of the people behind the "superior, not overdesigned" stuff you guys like would consider Nomura to be a bad artist. similar to WRPGgays seething about JRPGs for two decades now while Chris Avellone always loved FF7.
For me a character is overdesigned when you can remove those aspects that you consider unnecessary and the character would look a lot better. It's usually crap like dumb patterns, extra clothing, and accessories.
>lot of people use it wrong to describe things they simply don't like.
Dumb moron.
A good character design should be able to be quickly described, and even complicated details should, to some extent, be something that can come from the reader filling in the gaps. If you need more than a sentence or two to give somebody a general idea of a character's design, even using trope or archetype shorthands, then it probably has too many competing "key elements". Similarly, if it fits a whole bunch of different archetypes or tropes simultaneously, then the designer was likely trying to do too much. A good design should have a coherent theme or concept.
That being said, I think that to some extent being overdesigned is a matter of context. Even a design that is at the very least inoffensive like, say, Goku - spiky black haired dude in orange martial arts wear - looks overdone and out of place next to Kirby - pink circle with a face, stubs for hands, and red feet.
This post, basically. And to add: "Overdesigned" can be an aesthetic you want to go for, as anything can be.
>That being said, I think that to some extent being overdesigned is a matter of context. Even a design that is at the very least inoffensive like, say, Goku - spiky black haired dude in orange martial arts wear - looks overdone and out of place next to Kirby - pink circle with a face, stubs for hands, and red feet.
It also makes discussing "character designs" as static drawings on a white background kind of a half-pointless exercise. Characters don't typically stand perfectly still in white voids; most mediums have them in motion and in symbiosis with their background. You can have detailed characters on simpler backgrounds to draw the eye, but you can also do the reverse, where the character is a visual oasis.
Something like this.
it's a pokemon nostalgiagay meme term that equally moronic people picked up. the correct term would be "cluttered" or "unreadable" which doesn't actually apply to most of the pokemon designs they cry about.
a lot of the time they think certain design elements are "pointless" because they're stupid and don't actually understand what's being communicated
that's not his "design" though; he's meant to be carrying a bunch of stuff in that specific drawing.
War is classic vidya example
you can easily have just as many small details and give them a better sense of balance & cohesion. "overdesign" isn't the issue here; it wouldn't look great if you removed stuff either. I feel like they were probably going for an edgy 90s comic look but in reality he looks more like a dollar store Warcraft 3 design. the colors are also kinda shitty & washed out which doesn't work with the vibe they're going for and again goes against having a sense of balance & hierarchy because it's all too samey. even the red doesn't pop out enough.
Doesn't exist. Minimalism is bad, contrast with lots detail is good.
But you can't go overboard, otherwise it distracts from the character itself.
human men
letting go of Ganker brain aids is when you realize these are actually extremely purposeful, well thought-out designs and the circa 2 decades of "aesthetic criticism" is just butthurt rpg codex babble
>cannot have subtle parallels
>Sephiroth's one-off song named after a transformation where his right arm becomes a wing-like protrusion becomes Sephiroth's entire aesthetic
>what if Cloud, but mixed with Vincent
>dude, dude what if we wrap up bandages on a weapon that is meant to cut
Nomuragays are downright delusional
>the franchise where mickey mouse wears mallgoth attire and says "door to darkness" needs to be heckin subtle
>a song reference is a bad art choice and overrides every other aspect of the design for some reason
>referencing something Nomura said = insightful art criticism
>cartoon designs can't sacrifice realism for symbolism
No, anon has a point. Nomura's designs are good in a vacuum, but these two run contrary to the characters they're meant to portray.
they're not the actual Cloud and Sephiroth from FF7, they're reimaginings in a totally different universe. given their specific role in KH's story & themes all those little details that make people think they're "overdesigned" fit very well (even the belts in this case, though I won't deny Nomura often just adds them cuz "it looks cool")
I was never very much into KH, can you explain why the design changes suit that universe better?
KH & FF7 both have duality as a major theme but KH I'd argue is a bit more focused on it while also being a lot more visually over-the-top than FF7. every single one of Cloud's details represents struggling with your inner darkness and feeling bound by it while Sephiroth's details suggest fully embracing it. Cloud's design looks very monstrous & has an undercurrent of bondage - all the rough iron stuff, the gargoyle wing, the torn-up cloak, the more plentiful and also more messily-placed belts (as if quickly, sloppily & desperately strapped on to hold something in). also a far less symmetrical design. you can compare the vibe he gives off to Raziel from Legacy of Kain. meanwhile instead of giving the vibe of a tattered, caged, monstrous being Sephiroth looks more like a classy vampire. more symmetry, the belts look carefully & harmoniously placed, Cloud's monstrous gargoyle wing is complemented with the eerie-but-majestic wing of a fallen angel.
they did that cuz AC was new and they wanted to represent/promote it in KH2 but I vastly prefer the KH1 versions. those designs would've fit KH2 even better cuz KH2 was about duality above all else while KH1 juggled other themes along with it.
while Cloud reminds me of Raziel, Sephiroth reminds me of this dude
That sure is a lot of words to cope with the fact that placing surface level symbolism over faithfulness to your characters ended up rippling down into adversely affecting the core series.
Nomura himself admits it: he just doodles cool shit and throws it in. It's what you see so many patterns and details in his work. That's nice and all, but sometimes this carelessness is a bad thing.
I'm not judging them as part of "the FF7 franchise" or defending the decision to include those elements in FF7 itself later on - I'm judging them within the context of reimagining Cloud and Sephiroth for Kingdom Hearts.
>ended up rippling down into adversely affecting the core series.
yeah that doesn't change that they're good designs in the game they were initially used in.
They really aren't "good." They're just funny costumes on top of existing good designs.
they look like "funny costumes" cuz extravagant fashion is part of KH's aesthetic. don't see what's wrong with them unless you just think extravagant fashion is inherently bad design.
Not really. The changes are superfluous, which is why Cloud changes to his Advent Children design in 2 without any fuss. Worse, the one wing shit bled into actual FF7 spinoffs and the remakes. These designs were actively negative for the series.
>they're not the actual Cloud and Sephiroth from FF7, they're reimaginings in a totally different universe.
>In KH2 they frick-off back to edge city after re-enacting their Advent Children fight Tifa have tell that to the player
They also seem to be a prototype for the capes that the armors were meant to have but... well... Nomura was forced to accept that capes don't work with KH combat
>In KH2 they frick-off back to edge city after re-enacting their Advent Children fight Tifa have tell that to the player
how does that contradict what I said? like most of Sora encounters in KH2 they're there to reflect Sora's inner struggle & the unavoidable truth he's trying to run away from.
>SOLDIER wearing unique clothes and a katana that only he can wield
>SOLDIER wearing grunt uniform with a slab of iron as a sword
And those subtle design choices become more and more important as OG 7 story unfolds
>the franchise where mickey mouse wears mallgoth attire and says "door to darkness" needs to be heckin subtle
It's Mickey fricking Mouse, yeah I don't agree with how he's been dolled up but he'll stick like a sore thumb on his og clothes, something like Goofy though? that's more like it
>cartoon designs can't sacrifice realism for symbolism
What symbolism? darkness = 99.999....9% evil, light = 100% good
The resolution in 2 means that they were indeed OG 7 Cloud and Sephiroth, despite Cloud's issue being about identity that managed to resolve at the end of 7, Sephiroth already had an identity that shattered when he found out why he was born, nothing about darkness and hearts, this alone makes Cloud's redesign even worse
KH is not FF7. SOLDIER doesn't even exist in KH.
>What symbolism?
big heavy sword with sloppily applied old-looking bandages = tattered soul w a heavy burden. heavily contrasting Sephiroth's simple katana
>The resolution in 2 means that they were indeed OG 7 Cloud and Sephiroth
how? sounds like you're projecting a tvtropes/reddit-tier fan headcanon to justify crying about their designs.
>despite Cloud's issue being about identity that managed to resolve at the end of 7, Sephiroth already had an identity that shattered when he found out why he was born, nothing about darkness and hearts
yeah cuz KH is not FF7, dummy.
>Cloud and Sephiroth battle start to resemble their clash in Advent Children then disappear, the next comments are about going back to their world and having a great battle
>You like my new super SOLDIER? See, this right here, it's the power of darkness! -Hades
>KH Cloud: I'm looking for 'her'.
>KH Sephiroth: Where's Cloud?
>AC Cloud: I'm mourning 'her'
>AC Sephiroth: Where's Cloud?
Anon, I don't know how to tell this to you, but you might not be able to comprehend what you're seeing, that probably explains why you don't get the already existing parallels between Cloud and Sephiroth
>Hades uses the word soldier this one time thus SOLDIER exists in KH's world
Goofy, who constantly misses the point, is the one who asked if they "went back to their own world". Sora then replies "they went somewhere else. Cloud went to fight a great battle, to defeat the darkness inside him". it's doing exactly what I'm saying it is: paralleling the Sora/Roxas duality & conflict. you can only access that sidequest near the end of the game; it's signaling that Sora's starting to accept the truth.
Kingdom Hearts was so fricking based. I'd KILL to have it more Final Fantasy centric instead of troonie world rides and making the keyblade a lol anything weapon.
Nomura literally just slapped Vincent's clothes on Cloud because Cloud was more marketable.
these aren't the same design at all & just bringing Vincent in wouldn't benefit the duality theme. the borrowed elements work really well for what KH's version of Cloud represents.
It doesn't. There's no reason for Cloud to have a one wing demon theme and bandages on his sword like it's old. You have shit taste.
I literally explained the reason. it makes sense within KH's world and themes.
>wh...why does he have one wing on his left
cuz Sephiroth has a wing on his right. they're two parts of one whole.
Just because you have lore reasons why doesn't mean it make sense at all. It's literal overdesign.
>lore reasons
Not that anon, but it's not good because of "lore", it's good because it's thematically cohesive with the rest of KH's visuals. You're welcome to not like the whole "lavish gothic toon" look the game's going for, but that doesn't make it overdesigned.
It's overdesign with incoherence and fan-service motifs that distract from the design. There's no reason for Cloud to have Vincent's motifs and themes.
I explained in great detail why all that stuff fits within the context of KH's vision of Cloud & Sephiroth
and all you got in response is "nu-uh"
I don't need a thesis to convince me that a mess of random aesthetics is somehow meaningful. You drank the kool-aid.
>"all these design details are random and pointless"
>"here's why they're not random"
>"nu-uh, not reading, I just know you're just wrong"
so is Nomura too unsubtle or am I reading too deeply into the obvious, in-your-face meaning of his aesthetic choices?
It's a case of you finding meaning where there isn't any. You want there to be meaning because you are extremely attached to the design or game of these characters. You must have them because it has justified your argument against others who were against it.
It isn't the say you can't like them, but you cannot rationalize them either to anyone who these designs do not resonate with. A simple case of paradolia. You want meaning in the clouds.
nah you're the one who can't accept the really overt symbolism is intentional cuz Ganker taught you to think Nomura is a dunce who can't think about what he's drawing & took over from Amano, making FF artless. even though he was with Square for a long time and designed some really iconic stuff. Cactuar? Nomura. Tonberry? Nomura.
>Ganker taught you
You are doubling down. I have never liked those designs and KH predates Ganker by some years. I'm afraid the cognitive dissonance hit you pretty hard and now you demand others capitulate to these vague symbolism these clouds have formed. I'm sorry for your brain.
yeah I'm doubling down cuz you have to be willfully disingenuous to think the stuff I outlined wasn't intentional. if anything I expected people to go "that's not deep, it's really on-the-nose pubertal stuff, shut up" but to deny the intent is ridiculous I didn't make that shit up: Cloud's struggling with his darkness, Sephiroth embraces it. that's clear from the writing. you can't just unintentionally have the designs reflect that so closely.
>Ganker taught you
>get annihilated with reality that Ganker isn't the center of discussion
>"YEAH I AM DOUBLING DOWN."
I welcome your surrender. I hope in the future you stat into some awareness.
it doesn't matter if you developed the view independently of Ganker or not. it's still really stupid. why do you think Nomura is incapable of putting meaning into his art?
>you only view this way cause of Ganker
>"Thing predates Ganker"
>It doesn't matter really.
Then why say it? Why is it stupid? Why is there meaning? How is that meaning there other than driving up sales for a game that was extremely popular not that many years ago if we go by release dates. Perhaps the actual meaning was lost to you and you can only take something at its word instead of its actions.
But it's not Vincent unless you're being overly reductionist
when a design just has a bunch of shit slapped on to it without serving any kind of purpose
Persona 3 Remake UI, for example. Too much floating stuff having no real function.
this is what I'd consider a genuinely messy & cluttered design. not gen 5 Pokemon or Nomura or whatever else people here consider "overdesigned"
the anime works around it in various ways with specific angles, poses & using the shiny parts to enhance readability in darker environments but in model kit form it just looks like a jumbled mess
Look at [Any At All Genshit Impact Character Ever]. Ye, that. Just all of that.
I don't play the game but googling "Genshin Impact characters" this is actually a good example of something that's very detailed but has a better sense of harmony, balance & hierarchy than
The newer pokemon are overdesigned. A good design:
>fits the world
>is distinct
>is coherent in style
>fits the character
>Creates a specific vibe
The overdesigning peaked with gen 7, it was reigned in a lot with Sword & Shield. In fact, I would go so far as say its starting trio was the best designed one since gen 1. A shame the devs fricked everything else up.
oops
nah those all look totally readable to me. is your issue really that they're cluttered or just thinking "they don't fit pokemon" cuz you idealize the early gens?
They are pokemon. Theay are just very unimressive and not very much recognizable. Everybody knows pikachu etc. But who in the F would remember these abominations. The impression is what matters.
I get why you think they're not exceptionally iconic creatures but that's not an issue of "overdesign"; this is perfectly readable. I immediately recognized the other two as robotic versions of existing Pokemon (I didn't recognize Miraidon as a mechanical Koraidon cuz again I haven't been keeping up with Pokemon & gen 5 was the last time I cared).
Cyclizar is the one you're supposed to be comparing Miraidon to, not Koraidon. Both legendaries are past and future paradoxes of it.
One of the big motifs of BW is Truth vs Ideals, and they're given form in organic/antiquated (what is and has been) and mechanical/futuristic (what could be) aesthetics. Those aesthetics are personified by Reshiram and Zekrom respectively, but are also shown in the world via the version exclusive areas (Black City, White Forest, and Opelucid City), and probably some other ways that I haven't noticed. One of the big points is that the two legendary dragons were once a single being, showing that harmony between the two has happened before and is still possible now.
good post; thanks for correcting some of my comments since I just went by quick google searches and personal observations. really need to finally play these games since as far as I paid attention gen 5 has my favorite designs.
give me like 5 examples of "overdesigned" pokemon
To illustrate my point. These are visually cluterred and lack coherent style and vibe
These are far from the worst.
well first of all those aren't even their default states; it's when they're in "overdrive". second I haven't been keeping up with Pokemon at all but just briefly googling & finding out about their thematic purpose in connection to Reshiram & Zekron explains their mechanical/inorganic look, the icy surfaces & the fact that their designs look more chaotic & asymmetrical in comparison to the more streamlined Pokemon they're meant to be a counterpoint to. there's stuff I maybe would've done differently but they're not bad designs.
lore is not an excuse for shitty design.
nah context matters. it's not exactly 1:1 but it's kinda like viewing Kimeramon in a vacuum. as
said:
>"Overdesigned" can be an aesthetic you want to go for
good art is about purpose & control. there's clear purpose to Kyurem's messier designs when they're specifically meant to give off a chaotic uncontrolled vibe as "the absence of yin & yang" (which reshiram & zekrom represent).
And lest we forget...
I mean, people shit on the key and the ice cream and other objectmons, but honestly I'd say it takes some chutzpa to be able to turn a literal keychain into a living breathing creature
I thought we were talking about "overdesign", not "uhhh you can't do that a keychain isn't COOL"
I think that one is good. Maybe a little otherworldly and yes it could be better, but its definitely distinct and recognizable.
Ultimately it comes down to taste. I don’t like lots of detail on characters, my mind almost literally shuts off trying to process them. It’s why I’m usually not into robots or mecha things, because they have all sorts of mechanical parts that are seemingly unnecessary, for the sake of looking cool. But it’s not cool to me. However, loads of people love that shit, and that’s okay. It’s why I can’t get into Xenoblade, since their outfits are designed like a mecha. Something like Phantasy Star Onlines robots I can dig though, because they convey a clear and simple image.
Cute. I like all Tawnas. Original, "pirate," and cowboy. Even if pirate Tawna has awful hair.
I think everyone has their own idea of "overdesigned". I think it only really matters if you're an artist, god just look at how guys would draw Midna's helmet before (Not)Boogie's helmet modeling software. Otherwise, I guess it can make some characters look tacky. Nomura zippers-n-belts can look stupid, but not enough that I'd seethe about how them like some people do.
every xenoblade character ever made
Overdesigned just means I don't like it but I wanna sound smart
so like guys who screech about xenoblade 2 designs?
No, XB2's designs on the whole are schizo. You get a few good ones but a ton of shit ones.
>why is this so over-designed? why isn't it simple and iconic like Pikachu? Nomura sucks
you only saw like a third of this at a time and it's the final boss
it still looks badass when you see the full composition. a full view doesn't ruin it at all
Seeing it only a third at a time makes it easier to digest ingame, especially at 240p.
Needs more boobs.
Poochie characters are almost always overdesigned and clash with a setting.
.
"lol, the stupid japs and their belts" meanwhile western game designs
"lol, nomura joker looks so stupid" meanwhile
You're correct. Removing her pants can fix that
That Tawna is cute, shame they went with strong independent dyke #402