We could have easily had both but Activision doesn't want to fund an RTS. BFA's story seems like it was suppose to be for a Warcraft 4 with it's structure and cinematics.
There are rumors that WarCraft 4 and even StarCraft 3 are in production because Microsoft greenlit it.
Problem is that I don't see any of these two because:
a) It's nu-Blizz. Thus a whole lot of fail, diversity hires, moronic decisions, woke shit, politics, scandals and bending the knee to China. That along with greed and corruption thanks fricking ActiVision.
b) All the people that actually had any experience with RTS games left like the old guard did. Not to mention that it would require purging Blizzard of any ActiVision influence.
c) I don't see any of these games due to the fact that for them to exist, World of WarCraft and StarCraft II need to be retconned (the first into an alternate reality because they wouldn't get rid of their cash cow and the latter due to the story in the 2nd game being absolutely horrible along with the setting being wrapped up).
Though I did hear that at least in case of a probable WarCraft IV they are thinking of starting where TFT ended and coming up with fresh lore. I don't know. It's just rumors so take it with a ton of salt.
WC4 is never, ever, ever happening.
Microsoft already has AoE2 and that franchise.
That's a good thing. It's better for wc3 remain the immaculate gem it is.
I'd expect most of what happens in WoW. Scourge attack increases and everyone bands together except it does not end with a Who? using unexplained divine intervention to stop the Lich King nor a bigger bad in a moron's vision of the afterlife pulling the strings. Throw in some Burning Legion shenanigan's, I don't know. I just know it all could have ended better than what we got.
Why would the Scourge have any reason to keep attacking and wipe out Azeroth? Neither of them have any real issues with Humanity after declaring independance from the Legion.
What would Arthas/Nerh'Zul want? Both of them merged and are sitting on the Frozen Throne of Northend.
If anything Ner'zhul and Arthas would be agreed in wanting revenge on the Burning Legion as they both have their own grudges.
WC4 could have been Scourge amassing to take the fight into Draenor while the other races try to interfere because all they see is that undead are le bad. Throw in some more side-switching shenanigans from Illidan and co. as well as Sylvannas hunting Arthas and you have a rough plan.
Ultimately though if we were actually going to get WC4 it would ideally mean that TFT would be retconned, as most of that expansion served soley to facilitate the coming WoW release, eg Forsaken becoming a faction, lots of new races, all big players conveniently ending the story out-of-action or busy in their respective MMO-friendly places like Arthas on the throne, Illidan wounded, Thrall building Org, Kel'Thuzad building the Plaguelands etc.
>If anything Ner'zhul and Arthas would be agreed in wanting revenge on the Burning Legion as they both have their own grudges.
That would be actually a good plot point. Now that both Ner'Zhul and Arthas are completely free (both Archimonde being defeated and the BL routed back to from where they came from along with the Dread Lords being offed sans a certain one who threw his lot with Sylvanas to save his skin), this could work well. >WC4 could have been Scourge amassing to take the fight into Draenor while the other races try to interfere because all they see is that undead are le bad. Throw in some more side-switching shenanigans from Illidan and co. as well as Sylvannas hunting Arthas and you have a rough plan.
And a lot of potential to boot. And with Arthas telling Sylvanas that they are both identical at this point and telling her that she can have her revenge but not until he finishes off those who are responsible for the Scourge being a thing. >Ultimately though if we were actually going to get WC4 it would ideally mean that TFT would be retconned, as most of that expansion served soley to facilitate the coming WoW release, eg Forsaken becoming a faction, lots of new races, all big players conveniently ending the story out-of-action or busy in their respective MMO-friendly places like Arthas on the throne, Illidan wounded, Thrall building Org, Kel'Thuzad building the Plaguelands etc.
Nope. Instead it would be the very point from which WarCraft IV would start as for it to be a thing it needs to start where TFT ended. I could see Arthas/Ner'Zhul sitting on the throne and telepathically commanding all undead to gather in Northend. Probably even would restore some of them their intellect back (especially the engineers and mages) to use their skilsl to strengthen the Scourge and then go off to settle grudges.
>Nope. Instead it would be the very point from which WarCraft IV would start as for it to be a thing it needs to start where TFT ended
Yeah you're right a TFT retcon would never work, it's just a shame it'd have to be a bit clunky going back to RTS-story after literally everything was designed in preparation for the MMO release. I wouldn't actually want them to retcon TFT, I suppose what I meant is in a perfect world it'd be devoid of setup for the impending MMO.
>Probably even would restore some of them their intellect back
It's possible as we already know that undead can retain their intellect and personality, though it's mostly characters.
Maybe we'd also get the extra playable races that they cut like Naga and the Burning Legion, who would get their own chapters. I've no idea how to get the other factions involved other than just getting in the way of the Scourge/Legion conflict. Maiev and Sylvannas meeting would be interesting given their similarities, especially if they teamed up or fought/killed one another
8 months ago
Anonymous
>Maybe we'd also get the extra playable races that they cut like Naga and the Burning Legion
If we get new factions then on top of the four that WCIII already got.
Would want the Naga X Blood Elves as one whole united faction along with the Burning Legion as its own.
Six factions with six heroes each. And Alliance gets WoW Draenei but renamed to True Eredar or something like this while the WCIII Draenei are their own thing.
Also instead of simple six factions they are all divided further into sub-factions and it's all coop commanders from SCII but made for mainline skirmish/multiplayer ala Halo Wars.
[...]
WC3/TFT were both designed with WoW in mind.
I mean guys a good chunk of WoW was literally mapped out in the late 90's, like the ashenvale map was pretty much done in 1999. Arthas was also a cut character from WC2.
>WC3/TFT were both designed with WoW in mind.
It wasn't that visible then and it proved later that making it a MMO simply devalued it.
8 months ago
Anonymous
>Would want the Naga X Blood Elves as one whole united faction along with the Burning Legion as its own.
Absolutely, and give the Legion Fel Orcs.
>And Alliance gets WoW Draenei but renamed to True Eredar
Frick that. WoW Draenei were an abomination of retconning. Eredar are just Eredar, and they would already be Burning Legion units. Maybe give Broken Draenei to Illidan's Belf/Naga faction as Akama sided with them.
8 months ago
Anonymous
>Frick that. WoW Draenei were an abomination of retconning. Eredar are just Eredar, and they would already be Burning Legion units. Maybe give Broken Draenei to Illidan's Belf/Naga faction as Akama sided with them.
With some changes and making them the epitome of "Good is Not Nice" combined with some brutality and going cynical. The WoW Draenei themselves aren't a bad idea in itself, but making them character-wise into what WoW presented them along with the retcon of the WCIII Draenei is what I dislike about them.
Rename them True/Pure Eredar, leave the thing with how the Eredar fell to Sargeras (but make it so that it was actually more than just simply corruption and it was also because Kil'Jaden and Archimonde wanted more power), make them not so morally good like TBC showed them (which would've shown why the race fell to Sargeras). Make them grimmer, somewhat cynical due to their circumstances and experiences, have them also hate the Orcs to a degree (more for getting high on Mannoroth's blood and getting so easily enslaved). Make them grayer, but still a tight bunch that simply want to find themselves a home until they can grow in strength to fight back against the Legion for what it did to their race. That along with having a different origin to getting light-based powers instead of Naaru and shit.
And Draenei are their own thing. No Broken, no whatever. Draenei are Draenei (aka the WCIII ones). No connection to any Eredar group. Though making them join the Naga and BElves would be nice since they could go out to live outside the shithole that is Outland and colonize those parts of Azeroth that aren't taken over by other races in hopes of finding a better living place.
8 months ago
Anonymous
Blizzard is allergic to having Alliance races have spots of grey morality which is why the writers naturally gravitate towards the Horde where they can get away with more.
The Draenei, having shit like the Akuni cult which wasn't a legion affiliate, showed that their faith in the light was not their only personality and that they were capable of flaws. Blizzard really fricked this up though, in the same way Blood elves were sterilized with the Sunwell's recreation.
Come to think of it, I think blizzard just loses all creativity when an "The Light" is involved because they view it as akin to pure lawful good with some vaguely Judea-christian charm.
>Draenei on Draenor not releated
I don't get why people are so hung up on that, those weird H.G. Wells mutants were invented solely to explain why Garona Halforcen was "half human" because they supposedly looked similar to humans before mutating or some shit. It was a retcon to serve a retcon, that got retconned.
8 months ago
Anonymous
>Blizzard is allergic to having Alliance races have spots of grey morality
You are thinking too much. They simply don't give a frick about the Alliance + they already stated that the Alliance is as bad as the Horde.
8 months ago
Anonymous
If that were true the blood elves would have gotten more development. They haven't, the blood elves are under the same clause as the alliance.
It's based on population count. With a little investor paranoia, the presumption is most players want a generic good skin to punch the bad guy in.
8 months ago
Anonymous
>Blizzard is allergic to having Alliance races have spots of grey morality
You are thinking too much. They simply don't give a frick about the Alliance + they already stated that the Alliance is as bad as the Horde.
>Blizzard decides to give the Alliance the bad guy role for once >They turn Gelbin Mekkatorque into a genocidal villain who nukes Thunder Bluff and the Echo Isles >He is forgiven on a later patch because he was controlled by Mimiron or some shit
8 months ago
Anonymous
Exactly. This shit is what I like to call "The Horde will be good in the end" phenomenon.
Basically blizzard knows that chinks and morons could not handle the alliance having anything interesting about them. Like Defias is probably as close as you'll get to humans not being milquetoast.
So it's all on the horde for interesting shit, especially when it comes to stirring the pot.
The alliance basically cannot be the aggressors, only the defenders, so in order to justify a conflict between them the horde has to fricking job for a conflict.
The Tauren basically exist as insurance that utilizes "you can't be racist against native Americans" noble savage bullshit to ensure that the horde will ultimately always have a path towards being good. So what blizzard will do is have some Orcs or Undead, hell even Goblins do some blatantly evil shit where the alliance has fricking nobody step out of line ever for the sake of generating conflict.
Blizzard has been doing this for over a decade, through either Garrosh or Sylvanas, yet people wonder why everyone finds the alliance so fricking boring and the Horde so nonsensical.
They'll just keep doing it too probably, keep throwing new orcs, maybe even a new troll, to start some conflict with the alliance but don't worry, Thrall and Baine will show up and have a speech about honor and ensure the Horde will be good in the end.
IIRC before WoW even released they stated that Illidan was always meant to have just been wounded and that he went back to Outland. You can call it a retcon but given how TFT was literally just a precursor to making the lore WoW-friendly I can believe them on that, seems a weird thing to overlook and then change between releases.
8 months ago
Anonymous
>Nope. Instead it would be the very point from which WarCraft IV would start as for it to be a thing it needs to start where TFT ended
Yeah you're right a TFT retcon would never work, it's just a shame it'd have to be a bit clunky going back to RTS-story after literally everything was designed in preparation for the MMO release. I wouldn't actually want them to retcon TFT, I suppose what I meant is in a perfect world it'd be devoid of setup for the impending MMO.
>Probably even would restore some of them their intellect back
It's possible as we already know that undead can retain their intellect and personality, though it's mostly characters.
Maybe we'd also get the extra playable races that they cut like Naga and the Burning Legion, who would get their own chapters. I've no idea how to get the other factions involved other than just getting in the way of the Scourge/Legion conflict. Maiev and Sylvannas meeting would be interesting given their similarities, especially if they teamed up or fought/killed one another
WC3/TFT were both designed with WoW in mind.
I mean guys a good chunk of WoW was literally mapped out in the late 90's, like the ashenvale map was pretty much done in 1999. Arthas was also a cut character from WC2.
8 months ago
Anonymous
If you look at the campaign map file for the dialogue between the two, they originally planned for Illidan to survive. But then they reordered/cut it so his death isn't left ambiguous.
And I'm having trouble believing WoW's "lore" was all planned when they had to go back on so many things from WC3 just to make it happen, like taking the Alliance out of the picture on multiple instances and only leaving Theramore/Jaina as the last remaining force.
Interesting. Sounds like it was just a clusterfrick from the start then
8 months ago
Anonymous
If you look at the campaign map file for the dialogue between the two, they originally planned for Illidan to survive. But then they reordered/cut it so his death isn't left ambiguous.
And I'm having trouble believing WoW's "lore" was all planned when they had to go back on so many things from WC3 just to make it happen, like taking the Alliance out of the picture on multiple instances and only leaving Theramore/Jaina as the last remaining force.
8 months ago
Anonymous
He was going to be a boss in WoW before WC3 even came out. The Twin Blades of Azzinoth were in the game files as an artifact (beyond legendary level) for a long time also.
8 months ago
Anonymous
Pull a MK1.
8 months ago
Anonymous
Yes I'm saying their original intent was to keep him alive. But then they settled on Arthas killing him and released the game like that. WoW factually retconned it, among a ton of other things.
>THERE MUST ALWAYS BE A LICH KING
Forsaken: what? Why? Isn't the lack of the Lich King literally why we exi-- >THE SCOURGE WILL WASH ACROSS AZEROTH WITHOUT A MASTER
Forsaken: ...what? Are you implying the Scourge are MORE dangerous as mindless skeletons than with the Lich King controlling them? That doesn't even make any sen- >ARTHAS' LAST BIT OF HUMANITY WAS HOLDING THEM BACK
Forsaken: Are you kidding me? The guy who got puppeted by a disembodied orc, killed his father, his mentor, a ton of innocents and CUT OUT HIS ACTUAL HEART is somehow doing us a favor?
>ARTHAS' LAST BIT OF HUMANITY WAS HOLDING THEM BACK
Thats the most believable out of all of those. Just a last glimmer of hope which made him once human. A last hope for some sort of redemption instead of "Nah, he is pure evil, get rid of him."
>Forsaken: what? Why?
The Lich King was the magical equivalent of Chernobyl. He was blasting out massive amounts of magic that was killing and resurrecting everything around it, along with irreparably scarring the land. That's why Quel'Thalas had a massive scar running through it, and why the sky above icecrown was literally splitting in two.
The undead and associated magical plagues were more or less contained because Arthas hadn't decided to genocide Azeroth on any given day.
>The undead and associated magical plagues were more or less contained because Arthas hadn't decided to genocide Azeroth on any given day.
The LK was never that top tier in the Warcraft universe. The Scourge had success catching Lordaeron off guard with bio-warfare and quickly overrunning Quel'Thalas who were geographically cut off from the rest of the Alliance. Sylvanas also made the mistake of trying to fort up and let the Scourge pick off High Elf settlements to grow their numbers.
Explain me once again without sounding mad: why dead lordaeronain humans joined the Horde (literally orcs who were killing them a few years ago) and accepted a literally who dead elf as their queen. And no "SOME SCARLET DUDES WERE MEAN TO THEM OR SOMETHING" doesn't count
Sigh. According to lore Forsaken and most undead when resurrected lost half of their memories and could feel spite and anger just like Skeletons in most RPG lore.
I think most of the Forsaken in Undercity had to go thorough Balzanar's and Lich King's mind controlling. (Balzanar was able to turn Lich King's armies against him.)
So i also just saw they just even forgot they were part of Lordaeren once and just accepted themselves as the Forsaken.
Reason why Sylvanas remember things was maybe because she wasn't fully mind controlled by Lich King.
The Forsaken tried to be diplomatic with the Alliance. The Scourge sabotaged that by sending their own agents who would disguise themselves as Forsaken then attack any Alliance who would try to tall to them.
Furthermore the Forsaken saw joining the Horde as little more than another step towards getting revenge on Arthas, since he was the one who killed and raised them. The whole 'noble misunderstood undead' thing actually only applies to a very select few Undead, namely those who were Priests and Paladins who retained most of their own will. The rest are either insane or bitterly angry at the world.
>the Forsaken saw joining the Horde as little more than another step towards getting revenge on Arthas
Stop with your headcanon. Forsaken lore makes 0 sense, period.
That literally what I thought when I reached WoW's character creation screen the first time. >"Why the frick is Lordaeron on the Horde side?"
and also >"Why the frick are Night Elves on *any* side at all?"
The gameplay decision to have only two bags to put factions in has doomed WoW to have a moronic storyline from the beginning.
The RTS were filled with betrayals, isolationism and coups.
LK controlled basically all of the Undead on Azeroth, either directly or by proxy. As such, all the Undead outside of Icecrown were just the tip of the iceberg. With LK, Undead would either break free and rampage or the Scourge would launch into a civil war of Liches fighting one another, causing the same problem as each one then launches campaigns to kill the Living and bolster their numbers.
The ultimate end-goal of the Scourge wasn't just to kill everything, it was to bring about a 'perfect and orderly' civilization via Undeath by having the Lich King rule everything with a saronite fist. This is alluded to in the DK starting area both indirectly with Koltiras and Thassarian, and also blatantly with one of the books that can be found in the area (penned by Kel'thuzad himself).
For this reason Arthas didn't just immediately bum-rush everyone, as the damage that would do could hinder future efforts if not managed properly due to advanced necromancy requiring some fairly precise conditions (once again referenced in the DK starting area).
So rather than run the risk of a more precise invasion thwarting his plans, Arthas laid a trap to get the best champions both sides could muster to come to him, that way he could behead the biggest threats first and turn them against the living.
Yeah but Lich King was still forged by Burning Legion and it's stupid that Artifact was able to control ALL UNDEAD in Azeroth even though the Burning Legion was never able to do it on same magnitude on Outland.
The Undead were never a big thing on Draenor, as Orcs were more than enough to take the planet due to there being no outside factors influencing them (i.e., the Light, the Void/Old Gods, or Nature Gods).
And that is why Azeroth's lore is just fricked. >Why didn't Old Gods try to intervene between Lich King and Burning Crusade in the first place.
I mean frick Ygg-Saroth was supposed to be the god of the Dead.
8 months ago
Anonymous
>>Why didn't Old Gods try to intervene between Lich King and Burning Crusade in the first place.
Because they were imprisoned by the Titan Watchers a long time ago, who subsequently lost their directives once the Titans got smashed by Sargeras.
Keep in mind that Yogg is literally breaking out in the middle of Wrath, C'thun was breaking out in Ahn'Qiraj, Y'shaarj is dead, ans N'zoth was locked under the sea until BFA.
Forsaken joined the Horde because that's what makes sense in terms of aesthetic design for the factions. Forsaken follow Sylvanas because fricking look at her
I bet it made Metzen hard to write da evil racist humans of Lordaeron who opposed the Horde as being now the b***hes of Orcs.
8 months ago
Anonymous
He's right. Nobody but dumb fat nerds (the WoW audience) enjoy "Horde dabbing on the Alliance for the 56151th time".
Anon, you need to touch some grass.
8 months ago
Anonymous
Metzen wanted them to be their own faction, he also hated gnomes.
He didn't have 100% control over WoW, Rob Pardo, Allen Adham etc had the last sigh usually. Adham was the one to push for the Alliance vs Horde focus which a good chunk of the team hated.
That was Blizz basically saying if they need a raid boss or supporting character, Bolvar is around.
Explain me once again without sounding mad: why dead lordaeronain humans joined the Horde (literally orcs who were killing them a few years ago) and accepted a literally who dead elf as their queen. And no "SOME SCARLET DUDES WERE MEAN TO THEM OR SOMETHING" doesn't count
I shit you not and its supported by their dialogue, mannerisms and even Sylvie's personal crusade, the Forsaken are mind-controlled. Thats the only fricking reason any of it happens. Pretty sure an anon mentioned a story where Forsaken actually broke free and tried to reunite with their surviving loved ones and Sylvanas genocided them all.
They aren't mind-controlled but Sylvanas does purge any who don't agree with her.
The thing you're talling about was part of the lead up to BFA; effectively the council Sylvanas left in charge of Undercity when she went off to be Warchief entered into peace talks with Anduin behind her back. Part of these talks were that those who still had living relatives that had made it to Stormwind would be able to reunite with them in neutral territory for a sanctioned event. This event was, overseen by Calia Menethil, who was specifically not a member of the Alliance, had never made any attempt to reclaim Lordaeron or its throne, and openly stated that she had no inclination to do so and wished only for peace with the Forsaken (which makes sense given she was literally taught to be a Priest by one).
Sylvanas caught wind of the event, crashed the party, and killed everyone involved except Anduin (or maybe he arrived late, I forget) because she perceived it as a threat to her power.
I always liked >the Lich King is the fused essence of Nerzhul and Arthas >actually it was just Arthas >actually it was Arthas but he threw out the good part of him >actually Legion shows Nerzhul is still there and doing fine but now Arthas is weak I don't know
And that's on top of Anub'arak's frickery. >dies in 5 man dungeon >"Finally free... of him" >even though he was the one who betrayed his people for power >also Christie Golden implied he would turn on Arthas at any moment in the book, even though he never gave that impression at all in the books or the WC3 manual
I don't get it. Wc3 story is clear on DK Arthas: He's just an evil version of what he used to be and his soul is trapped in Frostmourne.
For some reason wotlk completely ignored that.
>He's just an evil version of what he used to be and his soul is trapped in Frostmourne.
It's more complex. DK Arthas is also controlled by Ner'Zhul and has to do every single bidding of his. So he's not completely in control of his actions and free will. And the free will part is more like how he chooses to get the job done (which usually is slaughter as the quickest way to get the job done). Though him turning undead also crooked his morals into being an evil douche as shown how he dealt with Sylvanas in the last Quel'Thalas mission (then again she did actively threw logs under his legs).
He should have been an evil Doppelganger of Arthas. I could see him at first being a puppet of Ner'zhul but at some point he wants to do his own thing.
All of War 3 story set straight
Arthas Broke at Hearthglen, before that he was still the good guy everyone knew, no book retcon shit by a transisraelite writer.
Then Hearthglen happens, is hinted that he was infected during the plague caravans incident, thus making him more brash and impatient.
From that onwards, it was all a play by Ner'zhul to corrupt arthas and whisper in his head the moment he set foot in northrend.
Arthas literally thought that killing mal'ganis would free him and others of the Undeath, but he was fooled into it by taking frostmourne and Ner'zhul's meddling
>is hinted that he was infected during the plague caravans incident
Where is this hinted? What a shit theory, it detracts from the entire point of his arc >those shoulderpads
What happens if he raises his arms? Does his head get squashed?
>Ner'zhul and Arthas are both products of the old Horde and old Alliance respectively, and are basically both kindred souls both being tugged at by a higher power to do something evil in the hopes of saving their people and ultimately leading them to damnation instead >nah, people just remember WC3, just make him Arthas
If Wrath had better writers, that alone would've made for more interesting scenarios.
The Naxxramas 40 voice seems to very much imply the fusion of Arthas/Ner'Zhul, so it was retconned after 2006. There was a also a line from the LK in the game where he says he was a Shaman once.
It was a big mess with Golden doing her own thing and the multiple writers in game contradicting each other.
Yeah but Lich King was still forged by Burning Legion and it's stupid that Artifact was able to control ALL UNDEAD in Azeroth even though the Burning Legion was never able to do it on same magnitude on Outland.
They really retconned Sylvannas to be the first Azerothian Dunmer in history.
[...]
Interesting. Sounds like it was just a clusterfrick from the start then
Anon from that map
Stratholme's entire location wouldbe where hearthglen is, the plaguelans would be a entire single zone, then on top of it the original Quel'Thalas and Zul'Aman region
Aerie peak, hillsbrad and Arrathi were one single zone, no Hinterlands.
it has enough space there to shove even Kul tiras and its islands as a zone and a bit for gilneas
i wish they just kept fleshing out the old world instead of rushing to island expansions.
Quel'Thalas was pretty good but Zul'Aman got shortchanged, you can tell it was suppose to be a zone early on with it's unique assets and skybox.
The way I see it. Most of the Forsaken are zombies. Zombies are freshly scourged and have yet to mutate into ghouls, the truly scourged undead.
So while the Forsaken are an example of undead who would be freed by the defeat of Arthas, the Ghouls and other more monsterous undead would run amok. Plus they implied in Cata that Liches that managed to escape Bolvar's grasp were already starting mini-scourge factions.
I always liked >the Lich King is the fused essence of Nerzhul and Arthas >actually it was just Arthas >actually it was Arthas but he threw out the good part of him >actually Legion shows Nerzhul is still there and doing fine but now Arthas is weak I don't know
And that's on top of Anub'arak's frickery. >dies in 5 man dungeon >"Finally free... of him" >even though he was the one who betrayed his people for power >also Christie Golden implied he would turn on Arthas at any moment in the book, even though he never gave that impression at all in the books or the WC3 manual
>Forsaken: what? Why?
The Lich King was the magical equivalent of Chernobyl. He was blasting out massive amounts of magic that was killing and resurrecting everything around it, along with irreparably scarring the land. That's why Quel'Thalas had a massive scar running through it, and why the sky above icecrown was literally splitting in two.
The undead and associated magical plagues were more or less contained because Arthas hadn't decided to genocide Azeroth on any given day.
>Ner'zhul and Arthas are both products of the old Horde and old Alliance respectively, and are basically both kindred souls both being tugged at by a higher power to do something evil in the hopes of saving their people and ultimately leading them to damnation instead >nah, people just remember WC3, just make him Arthas
If Wrath had better writers, that alone would've made for more interesting scenarios.
I don't get it. Wc3 story is clear on DK Arthas: He's just an evil version of what he used to be and his soul is trapped in Frostmourne.
For some reason wotlk completely ignored that.
>He's just an evil version of what he used to be and his soul is trapped in Frostmourne.
It's more complex. DK Arthas is also controlled by Ner'Zhul and has to do every single bidding of his. So he's not completely in control of his actions and free will. And the free will part is more like how he chooses to get the job done (which usually is slaughter as the quickest way to get the job done). Though him turning undead also crooked his morals into being an evil douche as shown how he dealt with Sylvanas in the last Quel'Thalas mission (then again she did actively threw logs under his legs).
The problem is the LK is a wish-wash of transitionary ideas. Blizzard wanted to do an evil subverted king Arthur with Witch King elements but had to haphazardly graft it into the third war.
The concept behind Ner'zhul being involved only exists to give a link to the central war of the game without resorting to alternative factions. The initial idea being that in WC II Death Knights were orc necromancer souls in human corpses with unnatural powers as a result of their state of existence (and also a ring wraith reference). Ergo the "lich King" being the ultimate death knight meant an orc and human fusion.
However, the reference was fleeting, especially in the more refined warcraft III setting.
You could tell by the time WotLK came around the lead C-devs did not really like Ner'zhul being an element, especially considering that he pretty much makes Kil'jaden look like a moron. Ner'zhul's goals were also explicitly to fricking escape the legion at that point and Blizzard probably felt that more grey-area sort of evil wasn't as dramatic as Arthas throwing a temper tantrum related to his self-loathing.
I even feel the scourge aesthetic and design had gotten so distinct that even Metzen didn't probably feel like "they're actually only a few years old and made by demons" sounded right. Because of this, I believe the bare basic framework for Shadowlands, at least the concept that the LKs power was rooted in something beyond demons, was considered well before Danuser made fanfiction out of it.
Chris Metzen agrees unironically. Apparently he is going to retcon retail. That is the rumors. He is deeply pissed on what they did to Thrall and Arthas. Those are his babies.
Lol, Metzen was pretty much in charge of the story until Shadowlands.
He retired in 2016 but BFA was penned out by then. The biggest difference without Metzen was the Marvel influence went up a notch with Jailer being changed from underworld aman'thul to Thanos.
>Translocation complete. Commencing literary analysis of WoW >It is in the universe's best interest to re-originate this timeline, should my analysis find writing corruption. Do not interfere. >Analysis complete. There's a partial corruption in the writing's villain support systems as well complete corruption in the timeline's consistency mechanisms. >Begin up link. Reply code: Metzen. Storyline retconning requested.
At the time, I was excited for WoW. I previously never had a PC that was strong enough to run other MMOs of the time, and Blizzard was well known for making their games playable on much lower end systems than what other developers would do for PC games.
I didn't even consider that it meant that old WarCraft as we knew it would disappear forever, and now it just bums me out.
There was nuance in original WOW, there was no open war between both factions, just tensions escalating, like they would because enemies don't magically become BFFs just because they had to ally to defeat a common enemy,
Horde vs Aliance was the best decision they made, that and the PVP formed a real sense of community through natural player agency. "They are killing our dudes! We can't let that slide!" now the random people involved just because they are all part of the same dudes form a connection. WOW died when they killed world PVP and faction animosity. Another game killed by the cancer that is e-sports and tourney Black folk.
Why do Forsaken follow Sylvanus? She didn't even help them against the Scourge and instead remained in Quel Thalas doing jackshit like the c**t she is.
Delusional. They butchered story for the sake of mediocre game elements.
You get killed on sight by the enemy faction. There are several constantly active sites of war. You can't defect. You can't team up with members of the other faction to face a bigger threat. You can't even fricking talk to them. Other factions (even bigger ones like naga+belves+others) are sidelined for no reason and universally attack you on sight. Zero nuance.
Nations now who were enemies or fought wars with each other are allies. It doesn't make sense to drain resources, men, women and children for a massive war machine and these nations didn't have an army of space-demons, undead, city sized dragons, alternate universe orc-Black folk or the afterlife bearing down on them. The Horde/Alliance population in-universe should be crippled to the point where instigating a conflict is basically opening themselves up to invasion. The only people left to defend them the Heroes of Azeroth, who vary from raid to raid in canon lore. Different people, killed different raid bosses
This. One of the major initial appeals of "3rd person Warcraft" was representing your faction. YOU were the footman/grunt and rose up to all the challenges, both railroaded by quests and those that emerge through interactions with the other faction. This fantasy was short-lived but it was one of the reasons me and all my friends played it at the time. As soon as people stopped caring about the Warcraft in World of Warcraft, caring about the RPG in MMORPG, it started feeling like just another MMO on the market.
>One of the major initial appeals of "3rd person Warcraft" was representing your faction
For dumb americans who always feel proud because their country spend 85 trillons in defense maybe.
World of Warcraft at the time was better than Warcraft 4 could have ever hoped to be. Now you want Warcraft 4 after WOW died, but it died so hard that the IP is ruined forever.
Factions make sense in wc3. They make no sense at all in WoW. Not to mention that it makes the world feels tiny with no mysteries, no dangers anymore since 2 super mega powerful nations with no culture of their own, own everything and destroy whatever dumb mob dares to threaten them.
true that. What drove me to warcraft was how savage and untamed the world was presented. Wow unfortunately shat on that feeling. Although leveling for the first time in 2006 was indeed a bliss
The big meme right now is Hardcore servers. Die once, you got to start over. I'm not that Anon, and don't really have an interest in it, but it seems to have stirred up interest. Keep in mind that we almost had a Kel'thuzad kill on the classic servers before with the people doing a self imposed hardcore challenge and dying because one person sabotaged the whole thing.
Pretty sure that was the story where half the server's GMs were in that raid group, and conveniently decided that this special case was not covered by hardcore rules and it was fine to resurrect everyone.
PvE
I just wanted to explore places, figured I'd roll up a Druid and go through Kalimdor.
Honestly I might as well have gone with a Private Server, I doubt I'll get anybody to do low level dungeons with properly.
A new planet that the Burning Legion is trying to invade.
Light Black folk warn some goodie peoples to defend their world from the baddy demons.
Factions: >Ogres >Dwarves >Elves >Demons >Humans >Necromancers >Fairies
You pick TWO factions to ally together and play as them.
What would the MMO genre look like today if WoW and the homosexuals at Blizzard didn't change it to the theme park "COLLECT BOAR buttholeS" industry of fetch quests that it influenced/became today?
Nov 3rd >Phil Spencer will be in attendance but not in show itself. >Cinematic short for new OW2 Hero, Dylwyn, Melee only DPS. >Increase in weekly Overwatch Coins, better quick match matchmaking. >Torbjorn and Symestra rework, with Sombra following at a later date >Reworking playable at the OW booth. >"Classic Plus" will be mentioned and talked about, but nothing is concrete or set in stone as to wether they will be new servers or extended onto the current eras. >Warcraft Rumble will be coming to PC through Battle.net after Android/iOS release. >10.2.5 Dragonflight fated raids + Warcraft Rumble rewards for D4, WoW, OW2 and DI. >World of Warcraft: Pantheon, will be the next expansion, expanding on Tyr and Iridikron, Dracthyr will get new class choices, Drakonid (Bipedal) will be a new race, and are shown in the trailer as shield bearing paladins. >Third spec for Demon Hunters named Reckoning, they are masters of bringing ones misdeeds to light, branding their enemies with afflictions, they are another "Support" specialization based around debuffs instead of buffs. >Great Fatherwinter will award players 1000 Traders Tenders aswell as the new toys and existing rewards, December will have a Reindeer mount as the trading post completion reward. >Diablo 4: Season of Plague will be showcased, with a sneakpeak at a new class, the Amazon. >Amazon will be playable at the D4 booth and will have "strong ties" to the Amazon of Diablo 2. >The D4 demo will reference the Bard from Diablo 1. >Heroes of the Storm will get a new Hero after 4 years and be free for all, a swansong for players, Blackthorne. >All existing heroes will be added the ARAM gamemode (with some talents disabled, and Leorics passive). >This will be the "Final, final" Heroes of the Storm content addition outside of bug fixes. >Microsoft is not interested in Heroes of the Storm in the slightest. >The third installment of the Starcraft series is in development, will only get a logo reveal.
we live in a cursed timeline
would you say... a corrupted time line?
We could have easily had both but Activision doesn't want to fund an RTS. BFA's story seems like it was suppose to be for a Warcraft 4 with it's structure and cinematics.
Blizzard needs to go breasts up.
custom games were the only fun thing about wc3
I don't think that can be replicated. It was a novelty of that particular time in gaming.
There are rumors that WarCraft 4 and even StarCraft 3 are in production because Microsoft greenlit it.
Problem is that I don't see any of these two because:
a) It's nu-Blizz. Thus a whole lot of fail, diversity hires, moronic decisions, woke shit, politics, scandals and bending the knee to China. That along with greed and corruption thanks fricking ActiVision.
b) All the people that actually had any experience with RTS games left like the old guard did. Not to mention that it would require purging Blizzard of any ActiVision influence.
c) I don't see any of these games due to the fact that for them to exist, World of WarCraft and StarCraft II need to be retconned (the first into an alternate reality because they wouldn't get rid of their cash cow and the latter due to the story in the 2nd game being absolutely horrible along with the setting being wrapped up).
Though I did hear that at least in case of a probable WarCraft IV they are thinking of starting where TFT ended and coming up with fresh lore. I don't know. It's just rumors so take it with a ton of salt.
>bending the knee to China
wow isn't even available in china anymore, blizz fricked up and burned their bridges with chinese distributors
WC4 is never, ever, ever happening.
Microsoft already has AoE2 and that franchise.
That's a good thing. It's better for wc3 remain the immaculate gem it is.
RTS as a genre is unironically dead. What's left of it has been replaced by ASShomosexualS.
"Which player will heal more trauma in a cooperative real time therapy session"
I just want a proper conclusion for the Lich King instead of what we got in WoW.
What would Arthas/Nerh'Zul want? Both of them merged and are sitting on the Frozen Throne of Northend.
I'd expect most of what happens in WoW. Scourge attack increases and everyone bands together except it does not end with a Who? using unexplained divine intervention to stop the Lich King nor a bigger bad in a moron's vision of the afterlife pulling the strings. Throw in some Burning Legion shenanigan's, I don't know. I just know it all could have ended better than what we got.
Why would the Scourge have any reason to keep attacking and wipe out Azeroth? Neither of them have any real issues with Humanity after declaring independance from the Legion.
If anything Ner'zhul and Arthas would be agreed in wanting revenge on the Burning Legion as they both have their own grudges.
WC4 could have been Scourge amassing to take the fight into Draenor while the other races try to interfere because all they see is that undead are le bad. Throw in some more side-switching shenanigans from Illidan and co. as well as Sylvannas hunting Arthas and you have a rough plan.
Ultimately though if we were actually going to get WC4 it would ideally mean that TFT would be retconned, as most of that expansion served soley to facilitate the coming WoW release, eg Forsaken becoming a faction, lots of new races, all big players conveniently ending the story out-of-action or busy in their respective MMO-friendly places like Arthas on the throne, Illidan wounded, Thrall building Org, Kel'Thuzad building the Plaguelands etc.
>If anything Ner'zhul and Arthas would be agreed in wanting revenge on the Burning Legion as they both have their own grudges.
That would be actually a good plot point. Now that both Ner'Zhul and Arthas are completely free (both Archimonde being defeated and the BL routed back to from where they came from along with the Dread Lords being offed sans a certain one who threw his lot with Sylvanas to save his skin), this could work well.
>WC4 could have been Scourge amassing to take the fight into Draenor while the other races try to interfere because all they see is that undead are le bad. Throw in some more side-switching shenanigans from Illidan and co. as well as Sylvannas hunting Arthas and you have a rough plan.
And a lot of potential to boot. And with Arthas telling Sylvanas that they are both identical at this point and telling her that she can have her revenge but not until he finishes off those who are responsible for the Scourge being a thing.
>Ultimately though if we were actually going to get WC4 it would ideally mean that TFT would be retconned, as most of that expansion served soley to facilitate the coming WoW release, eg Forsaken becoming a faction, lots of new races, all big players conveniently ending the story out-of-action or busy in their respective MMO-friendly places like Arthas on the throne, Illidan wounded, Thrall building Org, Kel'Thuzad building the Plaguelands etc.
Nope. Instead it would be the very point from which WarCraft IV would start as for it to be a thing it needs to start where TFT ended. I could see Arthas/Ner'Zhul sitting on the throne and telepathically commanding all undead to gather in Northend. Probably even would restore some of them their intellect back (especially the engineers and mages) to use their skilsl to strengthen the Scourge and then go off to settle grudges.
>Nope. Instead it would be the very point from which WarCraft IV would start as for it to be a thing it needs to start where TFT ended
Yeah you're right a TFT retcon would never work, it's just a shame it'd have to be a bit clunky going back to RTS-story after literally everything was designed in preparation for the MMO release. I wouldn't actually want them to retcon TFT, I suppose what I meant is in a perfect world it'd be devoid of setup for the impending MMO.
>Probably even would restore some of them their intellect back
It's possible as we already know that undead can retain their intellect and personality, though it's mostly characters.
Maybe we'd also get the extra playable races that they cut like Naga and the Burning Legion, who would get their own chapters. I've no idea how to get the other factions involved other than just getting in the way of the Scourge/Legion conflict. Maiev and Sylvannas meeting would be interesting given their similarities, especially if they teamed up or fought/killed one another
>Maybe we'd also get the extra playable races that they cut like Naga and the Burning Legion
If we get new factions then on top of the four that WCIII already got.
Would want the Naga X Blood Elves as one whole united faction along with the Burning Legion as its own.
Six factions with six heroes each. And Alliance gets WoW Draenei but renamed to True Eredar or something like this while the WCIII Draenei are their own thing.
Also instead of simple six factions they are all divided further into sub-factions and it's all coop commanders from SCII but made for mainline skirmish/multiplayer ala Halo Wars.
>WC3/TFT were both designed with WoW in mind.
It wasn't that visible then and it proved later that making it a MMO simply devalued it.
>Would want the Naga X Blood Elves as one whole united faction along with the Burning Legion as its own.
Absolutely, and give the Legion Fel Orcs.
>And Alliance gets WoW Draenei but renamed to True Eredar
Frick that. WoW Draenei were an abomination of retconning. Eredar are just Eredar, and they would already be Burning Legion units. Maybe give Broken Draenei to Illidan's Belf/Naga faction as Akama sided with them.
>Frick that. WoW Draenei were an abomination of retconning. Eredar are just Eredar, and they would already be Burning Legion units. Maybe give Broken Draenei to Illidan's Belf/Naga faction as Akama sided with them.
With some changes and making them the epitome of "Good is Not Nice" combined with some brutality and going cynical. The WoW Draenei themselves aren't a bad idea in itself, but making them character-wise into what WoW presented them along with the retcon of the WCIII Draenei is what I dislike about them.
Rename them True/Pure Eredar, leave the thing with how the Eredar fell to Sargeras (but make it so that it was actually more than just simply corruption and it was also because Kil'Jaden and Archimonde wanted more power), make them not so morally good like TBC showed them (which would've shown why the race fell to Sargeras). Make them grimmer, somewhat cynical due to their circumstances and experiences, have them also hate the Orcs to a degree (more for getting high on Mannoroth's blood and getting so easily enslaved). Make them grayer, but still a tight bunch that simply want to find themselves a home until they can grow in strength to fight back against the Legion for what it did to their race. That along with having a different origin to getting light-based powers instead of Naaru and shit.
And Draenei are their own thing. No Broken, no whatever. Draenei are Draenei (aka the WCIII ones). No connection to any Eredar group. Though making them join the Naga and BElves would be nice since they could go out to live outside the shithole that is Outland and colonize those parts of Azeroth that aren't taken over by other races in hopes of finding a better living place.
Blizzard is allergic to having Alliance races have spots of grey morality which is why the writers naturally gravitate towards the Horde where they can get away with more.
The Draenei, having shit like the Akuni cult which wasn't a legion affiliate, showed that their faith in the light was not their only personality and that they were capable of flaws. Blizzard really fricked this up though, in the same way Blood elves were sterilized with the Sunwell's recreation.
Come to think of it, I think blizzard just loses all creativity when an "The Light" is involved because they view it as akin to pure lawful good with some vaguely Judea-christian charm.
>Draenei on Draenor not releated
I don't get why people are so hung up on that, those weird H.G. Wells mutants were invented solely to explain why Garona Halforcen was "half human" because they supposedly looked similar to humans before mutating or some shit. It was a retcon to serve a retcon, that got retconned.
>Blizzard is allergic to having Alliance races have spots of grey morality
You are thinking too much. They simply don't give a frick about the Alliance + they already stated that the Alliance is as bad as the Horde.
If that were true the blood elves would have gotten more development. They haven't, the blood elves are under the same clause as the alliance.
It's based on population count. With a little investor paranoia, the presumption is most players want a generic good skin to punch the bad guy in.
>Blizzard decides to give the Alliance the bad guy role for once
>They turn Gelbin Mekkatorque into a genocidal villain who nukes Thunder Bluff and the Echo Isles
>He is forgiven on a later patch because he was controlled by Mimiron or some shit
Exactly. This shit is what I like to call "The Horde will be good in the end" phenomenon.
Basically blizzard knows that chinks and morons could not handle the alliance having anything interesting about them. Like Defias is probably as close as you'll get to humans not being milquetoast.
So it's all on the horde for interesting shit, especially when it comes to stirring the pot.
The alliance basically cannot be the aggressors, only the defenders, so in order to justify a conflict between them the horde has to fricking job for a conflict.
The Tauren basically exist as insurance that utilizes "you can't be racist against native Americans" noble savage bullshit to ensure that the horde will ultimately always have a path towards being good. So what blizzard will do is have some Orcs or Undead, hell even Goblins do some blatantly evil shit where the alliance has fricking nobody step out of line ever for the sake of generating conflict.
Blizzard has been doing this for over a decade, through either Garrosh or Sylvanas, yet people wonder why everyone finds the alliance so fricking boring and the Horde so nonsensical.
They'll just keep doing it too probably, keep throwing new orcs, maybe even a new troll, to start some conflict with the alliance but don't worry, Thrall and Baine will show up and have a speech about honor and ensure the Horde will be good in the end.
>Illidan
Arthas killed him
IIRC before WoW even released they stated that Illidan was always meant to have just been wounded and that he went back to Outland. You can call it a retcon but given how TFT was literally just a precursor to making the lore WoW-friendly I can believe them on that, seems a weird thing to overlook and then change between releases.
WC3/TFT were both designed with WoW in mind.
I mean guys a good chunk of WoW was literally mapped out in the late 90's, like the ashenvale map was pretty much done in 1999. Arthas was also a cut character from WC2.
Interesting. Sounds like it was just a clusterfrick from the start then
If you look at the campaign map file for the dialogue between the two, they originally planned for Illidan to survive. But then they reordered/cut it so his death isn't left ambiguous.
And I'm having trouble believing WoW's "lore" was all planned when they had to go back on so many things from WC3 just to make it happen, like taking the Alliance out of the picture on multiple instances and only leaving Theramore/Jaina as the last remaining force.
He was going to be a boss in WoW before WC3 even came out. The Twin Blades of Azzinoth were in the game files as an artifact (beyond legendary level) for a long time also.
Pull a MK1.
Yes I'm saying their original intent was to keep him alive. But then they settled on Arthas killing him and released the game like that. WoW factually retconned it, among a ton of other things.
>THERE MUST ALWAYS BE A LICH KING
Forsaken: what? Why? Isn't the lack of the Lich King literally why we exi--
>THE SCOURGE WILL WASH ACROSS AZEROTH WITHOUT A MASTER
Forsaken: ...what? Are you implying the Scourge are MORE dangerous as mindless skeletons than with the Lich King controlling them? That doesn't even make any sen-
>ARTHAS' LAST BIT OF HUMANITY WAS HOLDING THEM BACK
Forsaken: Are you kidding me? The guy who got puppeted by a disembodied orc, killed his father, his mentor, a ton of innocents and CUT OUT HIS ACTUAL HEART is somehow doing us a favor?
>ARTHAS' LAST BIT OF HUMANITY WAS HOLDING THEM BACK
Thats the most believable out of all of those. Just a last glimmer of hope which made him once human. A last hope for some sort of redemption instead of "Nah, he is pure evil, get rid of him."
Frick I'm still MAD! Illidan, Vash'j & Kael in BC were bad but this was the fricking nail.
>Second toe longer than big toe
That's a man.
>Forsaken: what? Why?
The Lich King was the magical equivalent of Chernobyl. He was blasting out massive amounts of magic that was killing and resurrecting everything around it, along with irreparably scarring the land. That's why Quel'Thalas had a massive scar running through it, and why the sky above icecrown was literally splitting in two.
The undead and associated magical plagues were more or less contained because Arthas hadn't decided to genocide Azeroth on any given day.
>The undead and associated magical plagues were more or less contained because Arthas hadn't decided to genocide Azeroth on any given day.
The LK was never that top tier in the Warcraft universe. The Scourge had success catching Lordaeron off guard with bio-warfare and quickly overrunning Quel'Thalas who were geographically cut off from the rest of the Alliance. Sylvanas also made the mistake of trying to fort up and let the Scourge pick off High Elf settlements to grow their numbers.
>The LK was never that top tier in the Warcraft universe.
>proceeds to make a literal iceberg and carries an army of undead all the way to the sunwell
He wasn't, even in WC3 Archimonde is far more of a threat. On Azeroth itself Azshara and the Aspects have higher power levels.
Wasn't the reason arthas came back to northrend and fused with Ner'zhul because the last was weak?
Explain me once again without sounding mad: why dead lordaeronain humans joined the Horde (literally orcs who were killing them a few years ago) and accepted a literally who dead elf as their queen. And no "SOME SCARLET DUDES WERE MEAN TO THEM OR SOMETHING" doesn't count
Sigh. According to lore Forsaken and most undead when resurrected lost half of their memories and could feel spite and anger just like Skeletons in most RPG lore.
I think most of the Forsaken in Undercity had to go thorough Balzanar's and Lich King's mind controlling. (Balzanar was able to turn Lich King's armies against him.)
So i also just saw they just even forgot they were part of Lordaeren once and just accepted themselves as the Forsaken.
Reason why Sylvanas remember things was maybe because she wasn't fully mind controlled by Lich King.
>So i also just saw they just even forgot
The whole arc of Forsaken is their free will
The undead never made an ounce of sense.
The Forsaken tried to be diplomatic with the Alliance. The Scourge sabotaged that by sending their own agents who would disguise themselves as Forsaken then attack any Alliance who would try to tall to them.
Furthermore the Forsaken saw joining the Horde as little more than another step towards getting revenge on Arthas, since he was the one who killed and raised them. The whole 'noble misunderstood undead' thing actually only applies to a very select few Undead, namely those who were Priests and Paladins who retained most of their own will. The rest are either insane or bitterly angry at the world.
>the Forsaken saw joining the Horde as little more than another step towards getting revenge on Arthas
Stop with your headcanon. Forsaken lore makes 0 sense, period.
That literally what I thought when I reached WoW's character creation screen the first time.
>"Why the frick is Lordaeron on the Horde side?"
and also
>"Why the frick are Night Elves on *any* side at all?"
The gameplay decision to have only two bags to put factions in has doomed WoW to have a moronic storyline from the beginning.
The RTS were filled with betrayals, isolationism and coups.
LK controlled basically all of the Undead on Azeroth, either directly or by proxy. As such, all the Undead outside of Icecrown were just the tip of the iceberg. With LK, Undead would either break free and rampage or the Scourge would launch into a civil war of Liches fighting one another, causing the same problem as each one then launches campaigns to kill the Living and bolster their numbers.
The ultimate end-goal of the Scourge wasn't just to kill everything, it was to bring about a 'perfect and orderly' civilization via Undeath by having the Lich King rule everything with a saronite fist. This is alluded to in the DK starting area both indirectly with Koltiras and Thassarian, and also blatantly with one of the books that can be found in the area (penned by Kel'thuzad himself).
For this reason Arthas didn't just immediately bum-rush everyone, as the damage that would do could hinder future efforts if not managed properly due to advanced necromancy requiring some fairly precise conditions (once again referenced in the DK starting area).
So rather than run the risk of a more precise invasion thwarting his plans, Arthas laid a trap to get the best champions both sides could muster to come to him, that way he could behead the biggest threats first and turn them against the living.
Yeah but Lich King was still forged by Burning Legion and it's stupid that Artifact was able to control ALL UNDEAD in Azeroth even though the Burning Legion was never able to do it on same magnitude on Outland.
The Undead were never a big thing on Draenor, as Orcs were more than enough to take the planet due to there being no outside factors influencing them (i.e., the Light, the Void/Old Gods, or Nature Gods).
And that is why Azeroth's lore is just fricked.
>Why didn't Old Gods try to intervene between Lich King and Burning Crusade in the first place.
I mean frick Ygg-Saroth was supposed to be the god of the Dead.
>>Why didn't Old Gods try to intervene between Lich King and Burning Crusade in the first place.
Because they were imprisoned by the Titan Watchers a long time ago, who subsequently lost their directives once the Titans got smashed by Sargeras.
Keep in mind that Yogg is literally breaking out in the middle of Wrath, C'thun was breaking out in Ahn'Qiraj, Y'shaarj is dead, ans N'zoth was locked under the sea until BFA.
Forsaken joined the Horde because that's what makes sense in terms of aesthetic design for the factions. Forsaken follow Sylvanas because fricking look at her
I bet it made Metzen hard to write da evil racist humans of Lordaeron who opposed the Horde as being now the b***hes of Orcs.
Anon, you need to touch some grass.
Metzen wanted them to be their own faction, he also hated gnomes.
He didn't have 100% control over WoW, Rob Pardo, Allen Adham etc had the last sigh usually. Adham was the one to push for the Alliance vs Horde focus which a good chunk of the team hated.
last say*
>evil racist humans
SAY THE WORD
That was Blizz basically saying if they need a raid boss or supporting character, Bolvar is around.
I shit you not and its supported by their dialogue, mannerisms and even Sylvie's personal crusade, the Forsaken are mind-controlled. Thats the only fricking reason any of it happens. Pretty sure an anon mentioned a story where Forsaken actually broke free and tried to reunite with their surviving loved ones and Sylvanas genocided them all.
They aren't mind-controlled but Sylvanas does purge any who don't agree with her.
The thing you're talling about was part of the lead up to BFA; effectively the council Sylvanas left in charge of Undercity when she went off to be Warchief entered into peace talks with Anduin behind her back. Part of these talks were that those who still had living relatives that had made it to Stormwind would be able to reunite with them in neutral territory for a sanctioned event. This event was, overseen by Calia Menethil, who was specifically not a member of the Alliance, had never made any attempt to reclaim Lordaeron or its throne, and openly stated that she had no inclination to do so and wished only for peace with the Forsaken (which makes sense given she was literally taught to be a Priest by one).
Sylvanas caught wind of the event, crashed the party, and killed everyone involved except Anduin (or maybe he arrived late, I forget) because she perceived it as a threat to her power.
I always liked
>the Lich King is the fused essence of Nerzhul and Arthas
>actually it was just Arthas
>actually it was Arthas but he threw out the good part of him
>actually Legion shows Nerzhul is still there and doing fine but now Arthas is weak I don't know
And that's on top of Anub'arak's frickery.
>dies in 5 man dungeon
>"Finally free... of him"
>even though he was the one who betrayed his people for power
>also Christie Golden implied he would turn on Arthas at any moment in the book, even though he never gave that impression at all in the books or the WC3 manual
I don't get it. Wc3 story is clear on DK Arthas: He's just an evil version of what he used to be and his soul is trapped in Frostmourne.
For some reason wotlk completely ignored that.
>He's just an evil version of what he used to be and his soul is trapped in Frostmourne.
It's more complex. DK Arthas is also controlled by Ner'Zhul and has to do every single bidding of his. So he's not completely in control of his actions and free will. And the free will part is more like how he chooses to get the job done (which usually is slaughter as the quickest way to get the job done). Though him turning undead also crooked his morals into being an evil douche as shown how he dealt with Sylvanas in the last Quel'Thalas mission (then again she did actively threw logs under his legs).
He should have been an evil Doppelganger of Arthas. I could see him at first being a puppet of Ner'zhul but at some point he wants to do his own thing.
All of War 3 story set straight
Arthas Broke at Hearthglen, before that he was still the good guy everyone knew, no book retcon shit by a transisraelite writer.
Then Hearthglen happens, is hinted that he was infected during the plague caravans incident, thus making him more brash and impatient.
From that onwards, it was all a play by Ner'zhul to corrupt arthas and whisper in his head the moment he set foot in northrend.
Arthas literally thought that killing mal'ganis would free him and others of the Undeath, but he was fooled into it by taking frostmourne and Ner'zhul's meddling
>is hinted that he was infected during the plague caravans incident
Where is this hinted? What a shit theory, it detracts from the entire point of his arc
>those shoulderpads
What happens if he raises his arms? Does his head get squashed?
>Ner'zhul and Arthas are both products of the old Horde and old Alliance respectively, and are basically both kindred souls both being tugged at by a higher power to do something evil in the hopes of saving their people and ultimately leading them to damnation instead
>nah, people just remember WC3, just make him Arthas
If Wrath had better writers, that alone would've made for more interesting scenarios.
The Naxxramas 40 voice seems to very much imply the fusion of Arthas/Ner'Zhul, so it was retconned after 2006. There was a also a line from the LK in the game where he says he was a Shaman once.
It was a big mess with Golden doing her own thing and the multiple writers in game contradicting each other.
They really retconned Sylvannas to be the first Azerothian Dunmer in history.
Anon from that map
Stratholme's entire location wouldbe where hearthglen is, the plaguelans would be a entire single zone, then on top of it the original Quel'Thalas and Zul'Aman region
Aerie peak, hillsbrad and Arrathi were one single zone, no Hinterlands.
it has enough space there to shove even Kul tiras and its islands as a zone and a bit for gilneas
i wish they just kept fleshing out the old world instead of rushing to island expansions.
Quel'Thalas was pretty good but Zul'Aman got shortchanged, you can tell it was suppose to be a zone early on with it's unique assets and skybox.
The way I see it. Most of the Forsaken are zombies. Zombies are freshly scourged and have yet to mutate into ghouls, the truly scourged undead.
So while the Forsaken are an example of undead who would be freed by the defeat of Arthas, the Ghouls and other more monsterous undead would run amok. Plus they implied in Cata that Liches that managed to escape Bolvar's grasp were already starting mini-scourge factions.
The problem is the LK is a wish-wash of transitionary ideas. Blizzard wanted to do an evil subverted king Arthur with Witch King elements but had to haphazardly graft it into the third war.
The concept behind Ner'zhul being involved only exists to give a link to the central war of the game without resorting to alternative factions. The initial idea being that in WC II Death Knights were orc necromancer souls in human corpses with unnatural powers as a result of their state of existence (and also a ring wraith reference). Ergo the "lich King" being the ultimate death knight meant an orc and human fusion.
However, the reference was fleeting, especially in the more refined warcraft III setting.
You could tell by the time WotLK came around the lead C-devs did not really like Ner'zhul being an element, especially considering that he pretty much makes Kil'jaden look like a moron. Ner'zhul's goals were also explicitly to fricking escape the legion at that point and Blizzard probably felt that more grey-area sort of evil wasn't as dramatic as Arthas throwing a temper tantrum related to his self-loathing.
I even feel the scourge aesthetic and design had gotten so distinct that even Metzen didn't probably feel like "they're actually only a few years old and made by demons" sounded right. Because of this, I believe the bare basic framework for Shadowlands, at least the concept that the LKs power was rooted in something beyond demons, was considered well before Danuser made fanfiction out of it.
Chris Metzen agrees unironically. Apparently he is going to retcon retail. That is the rumors. He is deeply pissed on what they did to Thrall and Arthas. Those are his babies.
Lol, Metzen was pretty much in charge of the story until Shadowlands.
He retired in 2016 but BFA was penned out by then. The biggest difference without Metzen was the Marvel influence went up a notch with Jailer being changed from underworld aman'thul to Thanos.
>Translocation complete. Commencing literary analysis of WoW
>It is in the universe's best interest to re-originate this timeline, should my analysis find writing corruption. Do not interfere.
>Analysis complete. There's a partial corruption in the writing's villain support systems as well complete corruption in the timeline's consistency mechanisms.
>Begin up link. Reply code: Metzen. Storyline retconning requested.
Everyone with sense is the same way.
MMOs are cancer.
At the time, I was excited for WoW. I previously never had a PC that was strong enough to run other MMOs of the time, and Blizzard was well known for making their games playable on much lower end systems than what other developers would do for PC games.
I didn't even consider that it meant that old WarCraft as we knew it would disappear forever, and now it just bums me out.
me too, without wow my life wouldnt be shit right now
Your life would have been shit regardless. You would have jumped onto the first addiction you got your grubby hands on.
I hate how much thoughtspace Blizzard still holds over all of us.
extremely cringe opinion. wow was based. we didn't need another rts at the time.
Horde vs Alliance was a mistake after burying it in WCIII. Give me at least a little nuance.
moron opinion.
There was nuance in original WOW, there was no open war between both factions, just tensions escalating, like they would because enemies don't magically become BFFs just because they had to ally to defeat a common enemy,
Horde vs Aliance was the best decision they made, that and the PVP formed a real sense of community through natural player agency. "They are killing our dudes! We can't let that slide!" now the random people involved just because they are all part of the same dudes form a connection. WOW died when they killed world PVP and faction animosity. Another game killed by the cancer that is e-sports and tourney Black folk.
Ah yes, the Lordaerians swearing allegiance to the Horde and yelling "FOR DA HOOOOORDE" just for the sake of dumb marvel storyline!
>yelling "FOR DA HOOOOORDE"
?
Why do Forsaken follow Sylvanus? She didn't even help them against the Scourge and instead remained in Quel Thalas doing jackshit like the c**t she is.
?t=130
HEY! watch where you're aiming that thing!
Delusional. They butchered story for the sake of mediocre game elements.
You get killed on sight by the enemy faction. There are several constantly active sites of war. You can't defect. You can't team up with members of the other faction to face a bigger threat. You can't even fricking talk to them. Other factions (even bigger ones like naga+belves+others) are sidelined for no reason and universally attack you on sight. Zero nuance.
This is the stupidest fricking post in this entire thread. You just took all the things the game's lore supports and pretended it does the opposite.
He's right. Nobody but dumb fat nerds (the WoW audience) enjoy "Horde dabbing on the Alliance for the 56151th time".
Nations now who were enemies or fought wars with each other are allies. It doesn't make sense to drain resources, men, women and children for a massive war machine and these nations didn't have an army of space-demons, undead, city sized dragons, alternate universe orc-Black folk or the afterlife bearing down on them. The Horde/Alliance population in-universe should be crippled to the point where instigating a conflict is basically opening themselves up to invasion. The only people left to defend them the Heroes of Azeroth, who vary from raid to raid in canon lore. Different people, killed different raid bosses
This. One of the major initial appeals of "3rd person Warcraft" was representing your faction. YOU were the footman/grunt and rose up to all the challenges, both railroaded by quests and those that emerge through interactions with the other faction. This fantasy was short-lived but it was one of the reasons me and all my friends played it at the time. As soon as people stopped caring about the Warcraft in World of Warcraft, caring about the RPG in MMORPG, it started feeling like just another MMO on the market.
>One of the major initial appeals of "3rd person Warcraft" was representing your faction
For dumb americans who always feel proud because their country spend 85 trillons in defense maybe.
Or for anyone who liked playing Warcraft.
Anyone who played the RTS should dislike WoW factions. Especially if you are a nelf or a forsaken.
Nah, not really. Warcraft isn't just Wacraft 3.
Yea right, I remember playing wc2 and couldn't wait to kill Zuljin as a Horde player because I love elves
BIG PURPLE NIGHT ELF BUTTS
I'd rather just have elfcraft
breed. elves.
create the elfnostate
Retcon shit first
I would rather have both and for both to be amazing non-pozzed games. But nobody cares what we want.
World of Warcraft at the time was better than Warcraft 4 could have ever hoped to be. Now you want Warcraft 4 after WOW died, but it died so hard that the IP is ruined forever.
>Tfw no animation series of warcraft orcs crossing over into other series after their series die to rape other vidya girls
They have fem nelves. No need to travel to seek other females.
Why are you gays obsessed with orc wieners
you don't like fat, plumpy, delicious wiener?
Thought this b***h had a giant horsewiener from the thumbnail but can you blame me? WoW and horsewiener are practically synonymous.
Factions make sense in wc3. They make no sense at all in WoW. Not to mention that it makes the world feels tiny with no mysteries, no dangers anymore since 2 super mega powerful nations with no culture of their own, own everything and destroy whatever dumb mob dares to threaten them.
true that. What drove me to warcraft was how savage and untamed the world was presented. Wow unfortunately shat on that feeling. Although leveling for the first time in 2006 was indeed a bliss
I couldn't help it bros
I resubbed for Classic yesterday
PvP or PvE? Do they have any fresher servers or is everyone just gridning endgame with full epics by nopw?
The big meme right now is Hardcore servers. Die once, you got to start over. I'm not that Anon, and don't really have an interest in it, but it seems to have stirred up interest. Keep in mind that we almost had a Kel'thuzad kill on the classic servers before with the people doing a self imposed hardcore challenge and dying because one person sabotaged the whole thing.
>dying because one person sabotaged the whole thing.
I imagine this is going to be a repeated thing on hardcore servers lol
>dying because one person sabotaged the whole thing
mega based, I wish more sociopaths used their powers for hilarious shit like this
Pretty sure that was the story where half the server's GMs were in that raid group, and conveniently decided that this special case was not covered by hardcore rules and it was fine to resurrect everyone.
Sorry to link to leddit but
https://www.reddit.com/r/classicwow/comments/14xefee/hc_naxx_4horsemen_half_raid_wipe/
It was this one in particular.
PvE
I just wanted to explore places, figured I'd roll up a Druid and go through Kalimdor.
Honestly I might as well have gone with a Private Server, I doubt I'll get anybody to do low level dungeons with properly.
A new planet that the Burning Legion is trying to invade.
Light Black folk warn some goodie peoples to defend their world from the baddy demons.
Factions:
>Ogres
>Dwarves
>Elves
>Demons
>Humans
>Necromancers
>Fairies
You pick TWO factions to ally together and play as them.
MAIEV DID NOTHING WRONG
GAS THE HIGHBORNE
But think of all the sfm porn that would be lost anon
What would the MMO genre look like today if WoW and the homosexuals at Blizzard didn't change it to the theme park "COLLECT BOAR buttholeS" industry of fetch quests that it influenced/became today?
Nov 3rd
>Phil Spencer will be in attendance but not in show itself.
>Cinematic short for new OW2 Hero, Dylwyn, Melee only DPS.
>Increase in weekly Overwatch Coins, better quick match matchmaking.
>Torbjorn and Symestra rework, with Sombra following at a later date
>Reworking playable at the OW booth.
>"Classic Plus" will be mentioned and talked about, but nothing is concrete or set in stone as to wether they will be new servers or extended onto the current eras.
>Warcraft Rumble will be coming to PC through Battle.net after Android/iOS release.
>10.2.5 Dragonflight fated raids + Warcraft Rumble rewards for D4, WoW, OW2 and DI.
>World of Warcraft: Pantheon, will be the next expansion, expanding on Tyr and Iridikron, Dracthyr will get new class choices, Drakonid (Bipedal) will be a new race, and are shown in the trailer as shield bearing paladins.
>Third spec for Demon Hunters named Reckoning, they are masters of bringing ones misdeeds to light, branding their enemies with afflictions, they are another "Support" specialization based around debuffs instead of buffs.
>Great Fatherwinter will award players 1000 Traders Tenders aswell as the new toys and existing rewards, December will have a Reindeer mount as the trading post completion reward.
>Diablo 4: Season of Plague will be showcased, with a sneakpeak at a new class, the Amazon.
>Amazon will be playable at the D4 booth and will have "strong ties" to the Amazon of Diablo 2.
>The D4 demo will reference the Bard from Diablo 1.
>Heroes of the Storm will get a new Hero after 4 years and be free for all, a swansong for players, Blackthorne.
>All existing heroes will be added the ARAM gamemode (with some talents disabled, and Leorics passive).
>This will be the "Final, final" Heroes of the Storm content addition outside of bug fixes.
>Microsoft is not interested in Heroes of the Storm in the slightest.
>The third installment of the Starcraft series is in development, will only get a logo reveal.
They are not doing Classic Plus.
>zero mention of B2P and ESO Premium Style Traders store
you know this is fake