I wouldn't say "ever." I mean technically you could read a bunch of books that are even more thought provoking and then tie that to a basic narrative and plot structure and convey those themes without it being too heady or pretentious so the player is not getting bored but is getting those thought provocation spikes on a regular basis I don't know you're not Chris Avellone but that shouldn't prevent you or anyone from uh making a well written game that's not like a prerequisite I mean you could just people could just they could write shit and shit and then that shit would like be good and shit I don't know people used to do that before this whole Internet thing find a book my point is find a book and if it isn't that good find another one keep uh keep looking and then you get the idea
>listening to that moronic mentally ill israelite
kek
>that whole spiel from OP
>this is your response to it
not entirely sure who you think you are, calling anyone else mentally ill
>he put the thief and cleric ahead of the single-class fighter in the party order
Triggered
Not an RPG, it is a point-and-click adventure/visual novel hybrid. 'Adventure novel' perhaps.
weak bait
there is rpg combat though and remember even bad combat is still combat. it's an adventure game/rpg hybrid, though not much content on pixel hunting or obtuse puzzles. sometimes i think people who say this stuff haven't played visual novels or adventure games.
>it shares the same color as orange so it must be an orange
Behold Plato, a man!
the only thing you have in common with diogenes is that you live in filth
I accept your whimpering concession.
rightfully so, i wholeheartedly concede the argument, pumpkins are not oranges.
Indeed, 'Planes-gape: Soiment' is not an RPG.
>soi joke
I'm looking for the upvote button on this website but I don't see one????
You have to go back to plebbit to find it. Now off you go, waddle along now little one, you are free.
>newbie obsessed with reddit
sasuga
>refer to plebbit first
>'NO U R PLEBBIT!'
>projection
Running out of options?
pity post
If you put stats in Harvester it instantly becomes a shit rpg. Add choice and consequence and less shit combat and it's marginally better than Divine divinity.
>People who write messy sentences, have messy thoughts.
- Krleža
No, it isn't. At this point, this has been repeated so many times on this site, always with insubstantial evidence to actually proof P: T is something that it isn't (a visual novel or a choose your own adventure game), instead of what it is, a different breed of CRPGs in which combat is only a detriment, but must have been included because it was expected at the time. Disco Elysium shows how you can make a CRPG with no combat and feel like nothing is missing in it, and wouldn't you know it, Planescape: Torment was its biggest influence.
the only slightly philosophical game ever made is disco elysium
you guys should play the void
Sell it to me
that's against my philosophy. i might try to convince you to have a nice day though.
Did you get laughed out of the Youtube comment section for that punctuation?
ultima 4 is the most philosophical video game ever made thougheverbeit
What is philosophical about Ultima 4?
protip: if max dermoron makes a video about a game it’s certified midwit slop
Thank you, anon, I just enjoyed a sensible chuckle.
>it's not the most philosophical video game ever made because books exist.
What a statement. Nice e-celeb thread btw
What does philosophical even mean tbh? Has the most references? Gives the most all-encompassing lecture on the topic? I don't know, all I know is that the game is not very good at telling the truth and so I would say it is not philosophical at all.
In short: Ugly Art = Ugly Game = Do not Play
He covers this question in a later video by explaining that he means it covers a wider range of philosophical topics in more depth than any other game. It discusses epistemology when the Sensates discuss the importance of empirical knowledge. It makes you think about the problem of personal identity in metaphysics when you start to think if the Nameless One really is the same person through time or if each incarnation is a new individual. It brings up ethical questions such as whether or not you should keep your vow to Trias, if Morte and others deserve their punishment in hell, what really makes someone good or evil, etc. Not to mention, all the various factions have their own philosophical worldviews with a variety of takes on life to learn such as the Dustmen who think you should seek freedom from pain, but life is only suffering so you should commit cosmic suicide essentially. By contrast, the Godsmen think life is great and about becoming the best being you can.
extremely simple, not compelling whatsoever, and designed for midwits to be able to digest. it’s flaccid. it’s plain. it’s played out.
if you like philosophy, read actual philosohers. husserl is great. his era was filled with differing ideologies and great authors to express them.
planescape is boring, it’s outright annoying unless you are completely braindead to the concept of philosophy. if i had never thought about my ideologies, or thought for myself at all, maybe i would think the game is interesting.
but no, i think for myself so the game comes off like a 17 year old wrote it. and homosexual israelite derrat is the exact kind of moron to gobble up that slop
What do you think of The Talos Principle? Milton talks about philosophy of mind with you in academic terms, along with ethics.
Also, of course, video games won't come close to actual philosophical papers and books, but they can still be interesting, considering they can share ideas with people in more engaging ways and can be components of an interactive story. For example, it was fun to actually get to debate philosophy with Milton in The Talos Principle which is an experience you can't have just reading a text. Additionally, philosophical texts don't come with entertaining gameplay and an interesting narrative, world, and characters typically.
Also, I still think you are being a bit too harsh on Planescape, it can be fun to learn about the various factions and decide which one to join or which one you think is the most in the right. Also, these topics I mentioned prior can be great introductions to philosophy for a beginner.
>Also, these topics I mentioned prior can be great introductions to philosophy for a beginner.
Please no, they absolutely are not. This is how you get people spamming wojaks at each other while pretending to back different factions. That's not philosophy.
You don't think the Nameless One can be a good example to begin a conversation of personal identity through time with and whether we should go with the psychological, body, or soul criterion for personal identity? You don't think that interacting with the Dustmen can be a good point to discuss why life has meaning, and why you shouldn't have a nice day? You don't think being faced with the choice to lie to Trias can be a good point to discuss the merit of breaking deontological ethical principles like lying? These all seem like great conversation starters for someone who is new to philosophy to me.
>You don't think the Nameless One can be a good example to begin a conversation of personal identity through time with and whether we should go with the psychological, body, or soul criterion for personal identity
No.
Why? He is a guy who repeatedly experiences amnesia followed by considerable personality changes. This provides a good opportunity to get people to wonder if he is the same person throughout these changes and to provide an explanation for why he is or isn't.
>Why
Because it's a shallow video game narrative.
Just because it's often misused and cheap doesn't make the motif of amnesia itself shallow. Torment employs it very well.
Saying "no" and stuffing fingers in your ears is what kindergarten children do.
Frick Kant and his Ethics.
I should clarify that there are some who cling to the deontological ethical principle, like Kant, that you should never lie. Your encounter with Trias makes you question whether you should be more concerned about the consequences of your actions rather than concerned about maintaining certain duties like the duty to tell the truth.
Talos Principle is a thousand times better at this than Planescape, that one actually keeps track of what you say and do and will actively challenge you whenever you contradict yourself.
which philosophical books deal with the themes of ps:t, can you recommend some of them? like what constitutes the self and the continuous personal experience? maybe also the ethical implications of having multiple selves which did horrible things and how you are accountable if you start tabula rasa each time. i can only find some modern thought experiments like putnam's brains and cloning etc. but not coherent philosophical works. kant was mentioned, but everything before darwin and freud had a limited understanding of the human condition. genuinely interested, please provide.
Read the entire Old Testament, followed by the New Testament
An Orthodox one, with the books that the Catholics and Protestants cut out
the bible is shallow and sometimes quite ridiculous. no philosophy to be found there.
the structure and integrity of the self is an important topic, not a what-if position. but what-ifs should be explainable by a rigorous philosophical framework. old philosophers have considered an indivisible soul, but this is not a position to hold any more and cant apply here.
>As a israeliteel of gold in a swine's snout, so is a fair woman which is without discretion.
>Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.
There is some good shit in the Bible.
there is very little point in writing a book about 'what if this happened'. Phenomenology of Spirit has sections on the 'self' and refers to things like stoicism and skepticism as different stages of self--knowing, kind of, but it's not an easy book to read. There is also a book called View From Nowhere that I haven't read but might be relevant to your purposes.
>if you like philosophy, read actual philosohers.
The entire point is that it's a fricking VvVideOoO GgGamEeE about philosophy moron. You're saying "HURR DURR IF YOU LIKE FISHING DON'T PLAY A FISHING VIDEO GAME GO FISHING IRL HURR DURR" you fricking turdbrain.
If you read the faction mottos, you'll get a wide range of philosophical schools. And since OP posted Max Derrat's video on the topic, he says that P: T is the best philosophy 101 class you can have in gamified form. And all the people who want to screech "but books are deeper!!!!" miss the obvious point, this game was made in 1999 and pushed the envelope in video game storytelling and explored themes few still dare, let alone back during that period in which CRPGs were mostly escapist in nature and went for a hero fantasy, not for a game in which you play as the source of all ills in the world you're traversing and exploring, and in which you're the source of Torment (the biggest, most important thematic crux of the game" for all your companions. But since Ganker has an abhorrent media literacy, it doesn't surprise they'd miss the obvious.
I'm wrapping up an MA in philosophy, but I can't say that I ever think much about Planescape: Torment in that context.
Neither do I, I'd say KOTOR II is more philosophical in that sense, but then again, Torment's strength isn't in its philosophical content, but how it plays with RPG norms and the very human story at the heart of the game, explored and embodied through every faucet of the overall world and companion you meet.
ex-philosophy-major here and i agree. it's more philosophical than the average game but its strengths lie in
Planescape and second KOTOR were just Avellone screaming loudly about all the things he doesn't like through his author avatar. They're not thought-provoking, they're not that deep. The only good thing Torment did was creating an alien world, but other games do it much better. Hell, even Pathologic gives you a better feel of an absolutely alien shithole. The Void actually makes you think about what you're doing and makes you ponder about what you are trying to become.
Stop clinging to Avellone. Man can't write for shit if he's in the main seat.
It's been some time I've played the game, but I don't remember any if at all instances of opinions from the writer. Every npc talked about TNO's quest or themselves. Is there an analogy I'm forgetting here or are you making shit up?
it's just a meme from starwars fanboys who were filtered by kreia and don't understand that avellone writes characters he disagrees with fairly easily. basically his writing was good enough to cause them eternal butthurt.
I couldn't even get out of the first room...
maybe games should be games first, not books
RPGs having good gameplay goes against what an RPG is though. If you want engaging gameplay play a beat-em-up, hack and slash or multiplayer game.
filtered
>I mean technically you could read a bunch of books
BUT HE'S TALKING ABOUT VIDEO GAMES NOT FRICKING LITATUREER
planescape is a setting built on philosophy. the planes are formed from the beliefs of mortals and the powers are upraised by them. that's what the factions are trying to do, change reality itself. avellone took that concept and was very faithful to it, tying a personal story into it. people who think it's talking about reality or making some grand statement don't understand fantasy.
i do not give a frick about what youtube video essayists c**ts have to say.
you're going to watch it anyways
>game is fun
>game has a fun narrative
>game has unique characters and worldbuilding
>narrative goes slightly beyond "go over there and kill thing"
>game-are-art-gays: OMG IS THIS ART THIS IS DEEPEEST GAME EVER OMG OMG OMG SO AMAZING
I hate you people so much.
Funnily enough, IHNMAIMS wasn't a fun game.
Not like you ever played it.
There isn't a game worth playing that you've played that I haven't. I'm superior to you in every single way.
..So you havent played it then.
Thats what I thought.
Non sequitur.
Did you read the book?
I cant read
https://zsoro.medium.com/life-as-torment-philosophies-of-suffering-in-planescape-80fbc6e33260
It's not that philosophical and doesn't really go into even much of the setting philosophies like the factions. Even the setting itself isn't that philosophical, and is mostly rooted in ancient Greek and latter modern analytical philosophy. To say it's the most philosophical is really only to say that games aren't very philosophical at all. Then again, should they be?
No one who loves wisdom would sit on the internet and whine about what video games people like or dislike.
Yeah, philosophers aren't known for being pedantic and pathetic.
Wannabes don't define anything, they highlight their own shortcomings.
Sounds deep, but you put human beings on a pedestal and expect them to no longer act human. Philosophy is all about figuring out what we really mean, and picking at definitions to find out if there are better ways of talking about stuff. And then others say when you put it like that, then ackshully language has gone on holiday.