After 5e got released I stopped as it was getting boring. I played Pathfinder, 3.5, and 4e.
I didn't play Pathfinder 2.
So I'm looking for a list of worthwhile systems to try.
I want a one size fits all everything.
The one that jumps out at me is GURPS, but isn't it old as shit?
What are some other systems that attempt to coordinate everything from big economies, massive warfare, 1v1 combat, everything.
Should I just stick to 5e and adapt the system to whatever I want? or should I do that to Pathfinder 2?
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Try out BRP/Call of Cthulhu.
It's one size fits all but with less modular shit than GURPS. It also functions fine with several of its limbs lopped off.
seems cool, why doesn't CoC use BRP? Or does it, but a specific one for the game?
Thanks for the suggestion.
BRP is a book that collects most of the mechanics used in chaosium games. so there's options for everything.
CoC is a game built for one kind of play
Runequest is another
tried BRP last night, didn't like the experience system.
will try genesy
is there a draft I can see online of the rules? Sounds cool.
I'll admit I'm scared of GURPS, it seems like ntr fat bastard of ttrpgs, so how do I embrace the pain?
>didn't like the experience system
you're actually wrong about this. it is the only experience system you like.
Start with a "Powered by GURPS". Preferably one that isn't trying to copy a d&d edition(dungeon fantasy RPG is a very gurpsy take on b/x. Good to grab stuff from, but it won't highlight much of what GURPS does that D&D can't).
I lean towards Hellboy even though it's for the last edition (came out shortly before the current edition did. The rules are very similar though).
GURPS 4e has decent mechanics, but the corebook is not very approachable, given that the whole thing is about the GM making a list of which rules are and aren't available, from the start. Fine if you already know how the system works, not so great for someone brand new.
If you're determined to use core set instead of a standalone powered by gurps game first, use it with a genre line like monster hunters or transhuman space or something first, where it simplifies things for the GM.
Going in via GURPS basic set can be overwhelming for someone brand new.
GURPS Lite, is widely considered to be crap.
But, I would suffer playing a "finished" GURPS game first, before you try to use basic set + whatever other books you feel are needed to build a game. Because ultimately basic set is essentially a TTRPG model parts kit and not a finished game on its own. Useful if you find you like it, but not designed as a grab and go game system or to teach the game system.
>suffer
I typed suggest, but sure, why not. Suffer plays off your GURPS fears.
Going to try GURPS this weekend,
You say Hellboy, but what about Discworld? Would Discworld be more generic fantasy to try the system out in?
What books should I use to give GURPs a shot?
I havent looked at GURPS discworld. I'm not familiar with the novels. It's probably fine? I just recommended starting with one that's a self contained game that doesn't require basic set, because it'll be better for getting the feel for it. As mentioned, basic set is essentially a parts kit.
For when you want more stuff:
Fantasy is the generic fantasy book.
Dungeon Fantasy is a dungeon crawler line with the other fantasy tropes cut out, assuming higher starting power levels (something close to a level 4 equivalent in d&d, but again, its all combat and dungeon stuff, not well rounded characters). Dungeon fantasy has a lot of good supplements though, worth grabbing stuff from for other fantasy.
Martial arts is expanded melee combat rules, if you want them.
Low tech is more in depth low tech gear and such, useful for fantasy and historical games.
Magic...
GURPS Magic: every spell is a skill.
Thaumatology: misc. other magic systems. Ritual Path Magic is popular enough, but 'spontaneous make up the effect you want' magic systems aren't my thing. I like the mana gathering bit though.
Powers: applying the supernatural abilities rulea to spell systems. customisable. Lots of fan built spells online. Some people think it overprices the spells.
Sorcery is the example way to use Powers for spellcasting. There are other ways.
the Dungeon Fantasy line has custom variants of all the above.
Only a few things in GURPS have hardcovers. Mostly short PDFs. Dungeon Fantasy has like - 30 themed volumes, none of which are very many pages.
The Action line has some stuff you probably want. I like Specialists. The one with the modular 25pt themed packages.
I like the inventing and training and studying rules in basic set, and like "level up through downtime training" more than a "you killed shit. Here you go, you're better at calligraphy now".
If you ask for something in the GURPS thread people can tell you which book or pyramid article does what you want.
I've never personally tried GURPS for running a country or warfare or dueling. people. I've seen bring them up in GURPS general though. Someone should be able to point you in the right direction there.
One of the GURPS "experience systems" is just advancement through training / study / downtime, rather than "levels" or handing out free points to spend every session. Unsurprisingly, GURPS offers multiple options here too.
Play GURPS
>The one that jumps out at me is GURPS, but isn't it old as shit?
GURPS Fourth Edition was originally published in 2004, but the system is still actively being supported, and the Basic Set (core rulebook) even got updated in 2020. I don't think that calling it "old as shit" is a valid criticism.
>What are some other systems that attempt to coordinate everything from big economies, massive warfare, 1v1 combat, everything?
ACKS 2 should be available for purchase a few weeks from now. At present it's still in draft form, with access granted only to Kickstarter backers. It's been consolidated a lot from ACKS 1, with less stuff scattered around a zillion different books. You could compare it to GURPS Fourth Edition vs. GURPS Third Edition.
>a few weeks from now
(around the end of May)
If you're looking for a new system, this website is a great resource.
https://1shotadventures.com/
A bunch of free adventures with pre built characters. Every adventure is written for GURPS and then one other system. He even has a couple Solo adventures, so you could run a system for yourself before bringing your group into it.
Gumshoe, and Dramasystem are worth trying out at least once. Gumshoe is the only game that does mysteries well and Dramasystem will give you a chance to adjust to more serious campaigns.
Gurps is good for more grounded games.
Hero system is great if you want something more comic book inspired.
Fudge rpg is for when you just want to make shit up on the fly.
>old as shit
Doesn't matter for TTRPGs, really. Newer does not always mean better, it just means different. Mostly newer just means color art got more common, and the older ones used more b&w to be cheaper to print, but increasingly they have shifted to color PDFs over time. In terms.
Some of my favorites over the years have been Rolemaster 4e (1999) (the newer editions looked less fun when I read them, but I haven't tried them yet) and Mythras (a revision of a revision of a revision of the first mongoose runequest edition from 2004, very similar, by the same designer, after he left mongoose - mongoose runequet 1 and 2 were also pretty fun) and TDE (the english one, translated in in 2016 or something. Germans keep telling me the older german-only editions were better). My favourite Shadowrun I've tried is 20th Anniversary, which is a revised corebook for the 2005 edition. 5th edition shadow run was worse, and 6th looked like crap but I didn't actually play it. I have not played the older Shadowrun editions either.
I've played Call of Cthulhu 6th and 7h edition a bit, but I couldn't tell you what was different about them. They were pretty similar. Not really my genre though. It's alright for 1 shots.
RPGs are an area where I think they've been generally trending towards being worse over the past 20 years as they "simplify" them in ways that worsens gameplay, but the older ones are still available, and I've just started going back to them.
Note: I'm 34. I didn't try Rolemaster until 2011. The edition we played came out when I was a little kid. Several of these games had been out for a lon time before I tried them.
Look into Genesys or GURPs. They advertise themselves on being jack of all settings systems. So hopefully they'll be the only systems you'll ever need.
Try WoD, their games are fun. Just don't give those commies any money
Powered by the Apocalypse is the generic engine du jour. It couldn't be easier to learn, either. Roll 2d6 and add a relevant stat. Total is 1 to 6: you fail in a way that moves things forward (like the enemies get a foothold, you lose something precious, take damage, etc.) Total is 7 to 9 (the most common total for 2d6) then you succeed with a cost. Total is 10+ then you succeed with no cost and probably some extra benefit or flair. Different games that use the engine will have different sub-mechanics and different abilities that prescribe results and triggers for the roll but those are more modular.
>OP complains about 5e gameplay being boring
>wants a system that actually covers everything
>explicitly mentions warfare and country management subsystems
>mentions GURPS as a potential best fit.
Clear implication is them wanting in depth coverage
>what about the rules lite storygame that has gotten used for every low effort cash grab since like 2011?
Why?
You don't know what you're talking about and you should be less belligerent when doing so.
(1/2)
>you don't know what you're talking about.
I've read more than one PBTA game over the past 14 years, and I played Dungeon World (not the absolute worst TTRPG I've ever played, but definitely in the bottom 10, and not a game I want to play again). The others were not so wildly different from DW. I am vaguely curious about the AtLA tie in because I like AtLA, but it mostly looks like a cash grab with pretty pictures, and would be pleasantly surprised if it was much better than DW.
It was certainly not an in depth universal RPG that covered nation building / economy management and warfare and all the other stuff you see in other games, that OP asked for.
What part of that assessment do you think is "don't know what you're talking about"? Not enjoying the things you enjoy does not mean I haven't tried them, and whether or not its an economy management and army commanding game are not opinion questions. If there's a PbtA book that meets OP's request, that I am not aware of, by all means, point it out.
>belligerent
OP asked for something specific.
You shilled your favourite system with no supporting comments as to how it actually meets OPs request.
In my (mostly negative) experiences with PbtA, I haven't seen anything that met OPs request, so I asked you why you plugged a story game engine used for cash grabs (my assessment of PbtA, yes) when IBM pretty sure it doesn't meet OP's request.
You than call me belligerent and ignorant for asking.
That's not me being belligerent, that's you being a shill and an evasive butthole. If you like, you can call me pointing out your evasive butthole shilling routine belligerent. Clearly you're just here to fight anyone who isn't enamoured with your (seemingly irrelevant) advertisements and evasions.
He didn't say any of that shit. Why are you sperging out right now?
PbtA is theoretically more story driven, but having actually played and run Apocalypse World, I think it's a case of the authors failing to translate their ideals into the mechanics of their game. It's not 'rules lite' at all; granted, character sheets and progression are fairly simple, but the GM in a PbtA game actually has WAAAAY more mechanical constraints on his session than an ACKS GM or GURPS GM, because PbtA is almost 100% mechanically derived. Nothing that happens in a game of Apocalypse World has any significance unless it's been attached to one of the main mechanics, those being the playbooks, moves, and clocks. Clocks are a cool idea but they're the opposite of engendering a 'story driven experience' - clocks are basically timers that the GM attaches to various things, be they nasty effects like being hungover or some upcoming event like a bandit raid. Players have every incentive, OOC and IC, to do whatever they can to delay or stop negative clocks and progress positive clocks. You coordinate what your group does FAR more exactingly and with mechanics in mind than you do in any given game of DnDalike, where you don't really coordinate anything unless you're in combat.
There are also PbtA games which aren't like the Apocalypse World format, such as Blades in the Dark, which essentially abandon altogether the interstitial 'storytelling' for pure mechanical harmony.
All that to say, PbtA is not rules-lite, it's rules-medium to rules-heavy.
>rules medium to rules heavy because the rules come up a lot.
Is that what people mean these days? I meant you don't normally have 500+ pages of dense game mechanics spread across several volumes you're gradually learning as you play like for something like GURPS.
But there are certainly lighter games, that's true. It still gets used for lazy cash grabs, and I haven't come across a coordinated economy management or warfare expansion for it.
2/2
>economies
An echo resounding or ACKS might work.
I think REIGN covers that.
Mongoose Runequest (compatible with BRP or mythras with a bit of effort) had Runequest Empires which might fit the bill, or perhaps Guilds, Factions, and Cults.
GURPS has Realm Management, but it's generally regarded as bad. It has another one for managing a village or manor I can't remember the name of, and some stuff in Space Ships for managing large orbital habitats that you might be able to adapt for managing a country.
Unisystem has simplified rules for running a multinational Corporation in Angel.
>Warfare
D&D 3.x has like a dozen compatible warfare and kingdom and construction project subsystems across various books. I haven't tried them though to be able to tell you which one is your best pick.
ACKS has warfare rules, so do all the TSR d&d editions.
RuneQuest Empires had something I think. Been a while
So did REIGN
I don't think I've seen one for GURPS, but it might exist.
Unisystem has *some* book covering warfare, I forget what.
>3.x
lol nevermind. Found the issue. You have brain damage.
>3.x brain damage lol
I'd rather GURPS by a long shot, but I've certainly played a bunch of 3.x back in the day. All you're saying here is that you're under 30.
>he didn't say that!!
Okay tide pods. So many zoom zooms are both tech illiterate and text illiterate. Let's quote OP. Here comes the choo choo train!
>"he didn't say any of that shit"
>5e ... was getting boring.
>>"he didn't say any of that shit"
>I want a one size fits all everything.
>>"he didn't say any of that shit"
>The one that jumps out at me is GURPS
>>"he didn't say any of that shit"
>What are some other systems that attempt to coordinate everything
>systems that attempt to coordinate everything.
>to coordinate everything.
>coordinate everything.
>>"he didn't say any of that shit"
>from big economies,
>economies
>>"he didn't say any of that shit"
>massive warfare,
>massive
>warfare
>>"he didn't say any of that shit"
>1v1 combat,
>1v1 combat
>>"he didn't say any of that shit"
>everything.
Like. Come on. You can lie better than that, evasive shilling butthole tidepod. Or maybe read the OP before you respond with irrelevant BS.
But yOU hAvE bRaiN dAMaGe
While I agree on the most part, I take issue with
> Nothing that happens in a game of Apocalypse World has any significance unless it's been attached to one of the main mechanics
Because moves are still triggered by fictional context. Having claws might not give you any special ability, but if they let you climb something without triggering a risky move then it’s made an indirect mechanical impact.
I will always love the amount of butthurt 3.x causes. Not one of its best features, but up there.
The crazy part is, while I get where he's coming from and don't even like DnD, I'd have to agree with you that hatred for 3.pf in particular is largely unwarranted. They stick to themselves, they're basically just the contemporary version of what WoD players used to be. I think you still have autism in there but the brand loyalty drone force moved on and now even seems to carry a grudge against 3.pf.
I don't like DnD, largely due to its use of Vancian magic and alignment, but I never really had a problem with any of the things 5e players think has been "fixed" from 3.pf.
I really wouldn't put 3.pf rules on par with ACKS. Kingmaker and Ultimate Campaign are infamously terrible at making domain play and warfare fun. ACKS is basically designed from the starting point of enabling PCs to fight wars and run kingdoms, and it's actually quality, playable content. I honestly wouldn't recommend any version of DnD for domain play except for ACKS and in particular ACKS 2 because 1e's rules are spread across, unironically, like 20 additional supplements. 2e has a GURPS-tier CRB and an even bigger GM book, but it's actually concentrated the mechanics into one searchable document at least.
GURPS does indeed have warfare rules, and I have played with them, though I'm not sure which supplement they come from. I was playing 4e, and we were doing 2010s era American troops vs. aliens, and it was a decent sim (I think it was quite abstracted, however), though not very engaging to actually play through. My GM at the time had the PCs doing an action sequence during the strategic battle, so we still had a good time, but if you're looking for a real wargaming experience I do think Domains at War for ACKS is the best RPG supplement in existence to that end.
>kingmaker and ultimate campaign.
I've used the town building rules from that but not warfare. I would agree the acks ones or an echo resounding for kingdom management looked better.
But 3.x does have a lot of them.
There's the pathfinder one.
The d20 Conan one.
8 or nine 3pp books for 3.0/3.5 that cover it.
Probably some other spinoff d20 games cover it too.
I don't know which ones are better as I havent tried any of them beyond some pathfinder town management in like 2012. But I've heard of them.
I was just being as thorough as I could listing all the games I knew of that theoretically met both requests. Country management and warfare don't come up in most campaigns, unless "that's your thing" as a DM / player group.
You won't find better combat rules than 4e for team based tactical skirmish games, but it does little else well and is particularly poorly suited for 1v1 duels
If you really want a one size fits all solution then it becomes a question of how autistic you want to get with the system.
GURPS and Rolemaster are good for having excruciatingly granular rules for every little thing, 3.5 and Pathfinder are pretty good if you don't mind using a lot of homebrew and 3rd party content to patch the numerous holes in the system.
Pathfinder 2e is kind of just bad. Its a game whose purpose seemed to be tackling martial/caster disparity in pathfinder by making casters as bad as fighters and rogues instead of making fighters and rogues better. It's actually kind of amazing how weak almost every spell, feat, and ability in that game is. The 3 action system doesn't work, the math is all fricked up. Seriously just don't play pf2e.
Skip Pathfinder 2e. Its going to be even more difficult than 5e to adapt and its just generally an unwieldy system by itself. Admittedly I'm biased because I probably disagree with every design decision made by the dev team but you asked for opinions.
>t. In a fantasy Fallout game right now thats using PF2e and wrangling the system at every turn
All the good shit this campaign has come from houserules and homebrew from the GM
Try
>Worlds Without Number
>Stars Without Number
They're the same system, but one is fantasy and the other scifi
>easy to play and run
>lethal
>OSR compatible
>will be familiar and comfortable to players who have only experienced D&D