is putting heat sinks in retro hardware yet another meme perpetuated by e-celebs?
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is putting heat sinks in retro hardware yet another meme perpetuated by e-celebs?
Probably a placebo but by the same token it's unlikely to really hurt anything either.
if its those popular raspberry pi ones with the shitty thick thermal tape they make the chips run hotter
how about you buy non shit ones? even for pi's there's ones that use actual thermal adhesive and not normal double sided foam tape
the price difference is like 20 cents
how about you suck my dick
jesus christ
ISHUGDFDT
the heatsinks are not magic
they must cover the die appropriately to function - just covering it with a metal box isn't going to improve performance/longevity
and may actually HARM the chip in the worst case
Ceramic or plastic ICs, doesn't really matter if it covers the IC exactly, but if you put it on the middle or cover the whole top of the chip, you probably already did anyways.
>improve performance
Brainlet
I doubt a SNES has temperature monitoring at all, let alone throttling.
>in the worst case
In the WORST case a fricking car could come through the window
Well maybe you should have a nice day before that happens.
I'd say the worst case would be false vacuum decay.
If it was new old stock you might just increase the lifespan of the components. On used hardware it's already too late.
Nope, they cost next to nothing and do reduce the temperature or more importantly, the difference between the hardware being off and on under load, which is worse.
There's no reason to not use heatsinks or even fans in hardware that did not originally have it since it was build to a price point, if you want it to last a long time.
People have done it before this "retro" meme started, including myself from the 90's onward, thermal epoxying copper or aluminium slabs on chips that got warm to the touch. Maybe that's why dozens of my machines still work from back in the day even though they have been used extensively in a warm climate with close to zero failure rate on all the IC's in total.
>On used hardware it's already too late.
Nope, you can still reduce thermal expanse differences a lot which might make all the difference, but this is per case of course.
The point being that considering a small thermal adhesive heatsink costs less than a euro, there's no point to not use it on a chip that gets moderately warm.
I don't think you need to heat sink stuff unless it's a known problem child like a C64. I mean, I doubt a Mega Drive has any need of it.
I'd say if the temperature delta is more than 20C, like another anon said in this thread, it's a good idea to sink it. Time and money needed is in the minutes and single digit currency numbers, meanwhile it can save you having to desolder a (maybe) hard to replace IC in your lifetime to replace it since it failed.
Things like
>One of the major failure for even CMOS is that the small wire solder point that connect the die to the pins just break thue thermal stress.
are real.
There's simply no reason not to do it.
Hivemind
if in doubt get an infrared camera to see how hot the chips get but as anon said if it doesn't get more than 20 degrees above room temperature it's likely ok.
the VIC-II and SID would typically get to 120F which is a rather large gradient
>I mean, I doubt a Mega Drive has any need of it.
Some of its chips like the Z80 get a little warm, the YM2612 doesn't get warm at all. If you have a MD2 all chips are CMOS and generate virtually no heat.
>all chips are CMOS and generate virtually no heat.
CMOS as mentioned before is not a universal sign that it does not produce heat
no idea where that meme started but it's very incorrect
the chips in a Mega Drive are way less complex than those in a N64
just saying, don't always just hope on CMOS itself
Some folks are screwing around with overclocking the Genesis heatsinks and fans are a must.
Dang, isn't a 68010 CPU swap enough for people?
sauce on photo? ;_;
cute, CUTE!
no
It's a game, Cosmic Fantasy
Heat is rarely good for electronics but I'd venture a guess that the components are already operating within their specs. Probably a bit of a meme but I doubt it will hurt either.
Nothing in a Genesis gets that warm, only barbaric stuff from the 70s--Intellivisions were known to overheat when they were new.
I don't know a lot about Intellivisions tqbh.
They do get hot and this was known to be an issue when they were new. Supposedly that Swedish guy who brought the NES to Sweden wanted to import Intellivisions originally but wasn't happy with them for several reasons, including their known thermal issues.
This makes sense, I remember my uncle telling me about how his first system was a colecovision that broke immediately
He most likely zapped the controller port with static.
We've come a long way if Intellivision overheated, damn.
https://atariage.com/forums/topic/297541-hello-from-canada-overheating-intellivision-1/
Yes they very much do get hot. The main ICs are also double or triple rail, not single rail like the Atari 2600's chips. Luckily the most common chip to shit the bed is the RAM and you could replace it with a modern low power SRAM (if you build an adapter for it).
My PCE gets hot as frick but that's never been a problem with the Genesis.
Don't think anyone posting on a message board in 2018 pays too much attention to e-celebs
You'd be surprised
No your just stupid, old PCs or consoles getting hot is a bad thing.
>No your just stupid
>your
i was bored a feww ws ago since i ont have anything to fix for now and was consdering doing this to m consoles, i have several Pentium 1 2 3 heathsinks and would like to use them on chips that could be heath damaged, but i dont know which Snes Nes and Genesis chips should i put them on... any ideas on which chips get hotnon these systems?
the ICs in a SNES are CMOS, they don't get warmer than room temperature. they're at far greater risk of being damaged from replacement Chinese PSUs than anything.
As for the Genesis, some components in the M1 are HMOS which gets somewhat warm but the M2/M3 are all CMOS chips that don't get above room temperature.
>could be heath damaged
Don't snack while woking on sensitive electronics
Also get rid of the RF shield in retro consoles/computers...at least if they're US models. It traps heat.
What if you get a lot of interference
I'm pretty sure I would worry more about that in 1982 than 2022. And it's not as if Japan or Europe ever had RF shielding in consoles.
There's vastly more RF interference now then there was then, unfortunately. Wifi, cell phones, chinese PSUs with no shielding, etc. It's a bombardment of noise at all times. Try tuning AM radio in an apartment building, it's practically impossible.
I live in a small city and i cant even enjoy my RF systems anymore cause of all the static i get on screen. 🙁
Try again, something is obviously wrong. I live in a pretty big city and I can get RF to look pretty much as good as composite.
>Wifi, cell phones, chinese PSUs with no shielding
you won't be able to sell it in a non 3rd world shithole country unless it complies with RF regulations
FCC doesn't give a shit
The shielded cables RF machines came with are generally pretty reliable unless the ends are literally bent off. A lot of modern gamers will use regular RCA cables for RF and that will lead to terrible interference due to lack of shielding.
>FCC doesn't give a shit
Agree, but not every country is as big of a shithole the US is
How ignorant to even think every poster must be from the US
It's an American website, most are whether you believe it or not.
rent free
Those are what I use now generally; I believe they're intended for subwoofers.
>rent free
you posted the dumb post, not me
>Those are what I use now generally; I believe they're intended for subwoofers.
Yellow is for video, check woofer cables, almost all are black or silver not yellow, yellow is universal A/V equipment color for video
you think the Chinese colorcode anything anymore they dont give a frick
Exactly, the plastic would be white, they wouldn't bother going out of their way to get yellow.
>It's an American website, most are whether you believe it or not.
I don't, statistics say the opposite. *Most* are actually *not* from USA, Europe has more traffic on Ganker than whole of US.
>FCC doesn't give a shit
anon said "non 3rd world shithole"
>A lot of modern gamers will use regular RCA cables for RF
Yeah people dont understand this, you REALLY need a good cable for an RF signal. Plain RCA cables that people use for like composite audio have like no shielding and are garbage for RF (if you can even get them to work). If you actually get thick shielded cables for RF like picrel it actually looks fine. Not as good as composite obviously but you'll get a clear picture.
if you use a good modulation device & live somewhere with minimal signal interference you can use shitty cables
i recommend the radioshack one it cleans up the signal a lot
The cable literally says COAXIAL on it
You don't use coaxial cables for audio but for video
There's actually less RF these days in the UHV/VHF spectrum thanks to analog TV being turned off.
Consoles over RF actually look better today then they did 20 years ago thanks to that.
Overall spectrum matters less since the increase in UHV/VHF spectrum is miniscule thanks to all the other outputs like WiFi and cell phones compared to what UHV/VHF broadcasts used to do.
Could it just be the connection/wires from system to rf inputs on tv are worn out and shitty? I lived in suburbs as a kid and stuff like my c64 and 2600 were grainy, but playable. Now in a small city living in a row home, i can barely get a picture on anything RF with nes being the closest but still having to frick around moving the wire around to get a fine ish picture.
You have to accept it anon, even if it causes unwanted operation. Thems the rules.
ive been thinking about doing this and also rpace all 7805 rgs on my machines with those new modern linear voltage rs that dont even need a heathsink.
is this a good idea?
You can't really go wrong with cooler modern parts. Though I'm of a "if it ain't broke" mindset with most of my older hardware unless I'm absolutely certain it will fail, like Rifa caps in PSUs.
one time i had a Wii under a CRT and any time i sat my cell phone near it, it would cause the wii's signal to buzz and make weird sounds. definitely not a good idea to remove RF shielding
the Intellivision II/III were better than the original model as they had modernized ICs that ran a lot cooler
>old consoles work fine as intended for decades without any meddling
>"NOOOOOOO! YOU HAVE TO INSTALL HEATSINKS! THEY'RE GONNA OVERHEAT!!!!
The heat itself isn't the issue, it's more thermal cycling from being powered on and off. The hotter something runs, the greater thermal expansion and contraction is. So by keeping the temperature in a reasonable limit you reduce this stress on the chip which could eventually crack something in it. Some chips like the VDP in the Colecovision were inherently hot and the datasheets for them explicitly required them to be sinked.
the last run of Colecovisions AFAIK had a modernized VDU that didn't need sinking anymore
from what Atari boomers on AtariAge claim the VDU is a reliable chip and it's rare to find dead ones, possibly because of the mandatory heat sinking
*VDP I mean
heat drys out caps
t EE
No Japanese consoles or anything made after the Stone Age has major thermal issues.
There was one Atari Age poster who said he got tired of having to run his Intellivision with the case top off because it would get too hot otherwise. Apparently the Bally Astrocade was another one with significant thermal problems.
the Atari 2600 was actually nice in that it didn't have those issues with getting too hot like most of the early consoles did
It was a lot simpler machine with less chips in it than some of its contemporaries.
The Astrocade has one chip that gets hot and sinking it will solve the issue. Other ICs in there don't get significantly warm.
https://atariage.com/forums/topic/294980-just-bought-an-astrocade-any-tips-for-console-and-box-care/
Listen to this guy. If the console works as it is, don't mess with it and it will probably be ok.
I don't own any 2nd gen hardware but I'm not going to frick with my NES's cartridge slot by putting a Chinese replacement connector in there. The original connector is fine and I know how to position the cartridges to make proper contact, I have a lot of experience with that.
Better don't, listen to the guy he seems to know what he's talking about. Just leave it alone, don't mess with it.
Pretty dumb to be honest, preventive maintenance never hurt, unless you're just super inexperienced and have no idea what you're doing.
Age isn't an indicator or experience or knowledge either. There's this dumb rule that boomers know better on gate kept niche communities that mostly relate to boomer hobbies.
>crying about gate keeping
homosexual
I don't, I'm part of several gate kept communities myself, it's understandable for quality reasons but it's sad because it locks out more people who might actually genuinely be into the hobby. Plus it creates echo chambers where loudness matters more than quality of knowledge.
AtariAge is the least gatekeeping game forum I've ever seen tbqh. Niche sure, but it's a decent hub for any non Nintendo/Sega/Sony retro gaming or computing discussion.
I was talking in general, didn't mean AtariAge specifically. You are right.
In that case I certainly don't disagree hombre
>The guys that can fix these things are few and far between.
Just proves the guy is a clueless old fart
As we went over, the Intellivision definitely had problems with getting too hot if you've been using the thing for a couple hours. But if you mean only NES onward stuff, then the N64 might need sinking but I'm not that familiar with the things.
N64s have an aluminum heat spreader but copper sinks like you put on a CPU or GPU might be better.
Didn't they already have heat sinks on the chips?
http://forums.modretro.com/index.php?threads/avg-n64-temps-or-how-much-heatsink-do-i-really-need.1395/
This didn't seem to think the N64 had major thermal issues. Note that it has more modern CMOS chips so their temperatures and power use will go up under load while the ancient NMOS chips used in Atari stuff is steady state and will draw the same amount of power whether it's idling or not.
CMOS chips can still get hot and fail over time, it's not just about manufacturing technology and node size, it's also how much power they use for a specific die size. One of the major failure for even CMOS is that the small wire solder point that connect the die to the pins just break thue thermal stress.
of course it does. I believe sinks were only needed on CMOS chips once they topped 500,000 transistors. thus the 486 was the first x86 CPU to need a sink because it had 1 million transistors.
PS1s didn't need a sink, I'm pretty sure those had 600 nm chips while N64's chips had the more advanced 350 nm process.
Apparently the RCP gets warmer than the CPU.
Depends, a 386 chip that's pushed hard really needs a sink to not crash. CMOS alone and node size have nothing to do with it, higher frequency requires higher voltage, produces more heat, etc.
I'm absolutely certain I've never seen a sink on a 386 board.
well I remember on VCFED a thread arguing about 286s and heat sinks. usually they don't need them but certain brands did get a bit toasty. it might depend on the process used as some manufacturers were better than others.
They run fine without, many chips do, but running hot can lead to crashes and power cycling hot chips over years will break them down quicker, that's not some obscure myth.
Also 286s came in a variety of clock speeds. Some brands ran at 16Mhz although Intel's were only ever 8 and 10Mhz.
I would say most 386s don't need a sink but some later variants were 40Mhz and it could be necessary on those.
Even later '020 need heatsinks, official ones, to run cool. The '020 even predates the 386, yet alone 486 and used a HCMOS process.
Also had "only" 200k transistors.
The 68020 came out in 1984, probably 1.5 micrometer. I can believe 200,000 is rather dense for that process.
Glad you agree, as I said in
>CMOS chips can still get hot and fail over time, it's not just about manufacturing technology and node size, it's also how much power they use for a specific die size.
Density and power consumption is the major factor for heat for a specific voltage used.
the N64 ram expansion gets toasty warm
I try not to use it unless necessary. For games that need it I insert it and leave the cover off so it can get better airflow. it does actually make a difference in temperature.
I also remember hearing that Atari 8-bit computers with Synertek 6502s were much more likely to fail than other brands like NEC or National Semiconductor, and those Synertek chips also got noticeably warmer than the NEC ones.
the IC should have no more than a 20 degree difference between peak temperature and room temperature. if it's 40 degrees that's too much and it needs some kind of cooling.
The only thing I can think of is n64. Does that need a fan?
see
and obviously unplug when not in use
Right. Now VIC-IIs notably get hot because they're internally running at near 8Mhz and the process used was 5 micrometers. The HMOS VIC-II used in C64C was modernized and generates far less heat.
>not adding fans and heatsinks to your old consoles, computers and CRTs
it costs like 10 bucks for a fan, AC to DC adapter and a couple adhesive sinks, it won't harm it either and keeps all components cool, from caps to ICs, even the solder joints benefit from it
>even the solder joints benefit from it
Do zoomers really? Lmao
Anon is correct, number one reason of solder joint failure is cracking from repeating thermal expansion, specially if the solder is old.
Worst case scenario, there's no difference.
Best case, you saved probably 50x+ more money than you would have with a failed component or hardware.
Same applies for added fans not just sinks.
the first two revision Famicoms (Rev A and B) had a sinked PPU but it disappeared afterwards. either Nintendo/Ricoh were satisfied that the chip didn't get hot enough to need it or those first PPUs did have thermal issues and they improved the process later and got rid of them.
http://offgao.blog112.fc2.com/blog-entry-24.html
Ah, here it is. A very rare Rev A Famicom from 1983. He found that it suffers from more slowdown when a lot of action is happening than later revisions and the heat spreader on the PPU was there for a good reason because that thing gets scalding hot when it's been running for a while. The video output is also noticeably worse and has a lot more RF fuzz.
so it was kind of like the first C64s from 1982 with the ceramic rev 1 VIC-II
http://famicomblog.blogspot.com/2010/05/square-button-famicom-my-new.html
>powers on
>green screen and nothing else
That means the PPU at least was working but it's not executing any code. Apparently a CPU issue? Or maybe bad traces.
keep in mind if you find square button Famicoms they're more likely to be the Revision B board. the Rev A was the original one from '83 that had the sprite bug with random lock ups. Nintendo offered to replace the PCBs with Rev B ones free of charge so Rev A ones are real rare. The square "gumdrop" buttons kind of sucked too, they're not very durable and it's hard to play games that require rapid button mashing with them.
didn't those have the thing where looped noise didn't work?
Yes. You just hear white noise in Mega Man 1. I don't know of any other games off the top of my head that use looped noise outside Balloon Fight which does it by accident due to a bug at the end of the game over tune (note that BF was developed back when they only had Rev A/B Famicoms).
those buttons broke easily in spite of Nintendo's claim that they used a punch to test and verify them to 1 million presses. they would replace broken buttons but didn't swap them out for the new hard plastic ones.
If this jap left his SFC on for over 20 years I think your retro hardware will be fine.
That's the thing, it's like light bulbs, if you run it continuously, it does much less damage to the hardware than playing a hour every week for 20 years.
It's the hot, cold, hot, cold, hot, cold repeating cycle that kills it, not continuously running hot.
Leaving something running continuously is less harmful than power cycling it a lot. It's not the operating temperature of the chips, it's how much they expand and contract when heating up and cooling down and the cooler they run, the less this expansion and contraction is. I feel that C64s would have benefited from a reset button so you didn't have to constantly power cycle them to run a different program. Most other computers like Apple II, Atari 8-bit, etc had soft reset.
modern PCs also have thermal governors and can auto shut down the motherboard if a certain temperature limit is reached
The collective heat output of a PCB also matters. Simpler boards with fewer chips like the Atari 2600 have less thermal output and stress on power on/off. I believe most breadbin C64s had something like 30 chips on the board.
the Apple IIe improved in reliability quite a bit over the older II+ as it had fewer chips and didn't get as hot
The only thing that needs a heat sink is the ADAPTERS. An overhaul on those altogether is probably a good idea.
Power adapters? It's always a good idea to use high quality modern ones anyways, more efficient and safer.
As others have said the Colecovision VDU (the TMS9918) is a notably reliable chip and that may be because the datasheet explicitly required heat sinking. Most manufacturers complied with this requirement outside the Dina (Taiwanese SG-1000 clone and a notoriously badly built piece of shit).
>is putting heat sinks in retro hardware yet another meme perpetuated by e-celebs?
Didn't know e-celebs were involved. I've always told people that if they have a third party N64 Expansion Pak they should put a small heatsink in it because those things can get hot enough to kill themselves.
maybe for Dreamcast and xbox
So much placebo and Electronics Expert larping in this thread.
Yep, normal for /vr/. Everyone thinks he's an expert, even when clearly wrong. It's super hard to talk about technical things on this board because of that.
Is THAT why my N64 crashed? I remember i almost cried when my console crashed half way through the long ass blue cave from quest 64
>once played Majoras Mask for 9 hours straight
>with a third party expansion pack
>and old thermal pads
>not a single crash
In retrospect I'm amazed the entire thing went so smoothly,
To be more topical I know the N64 and Gamecube have thermal pads that should absolutely be replaced, they're over twenty years old by this point. I got some cheap-ish ones called "adwits" and they seem to work well.
N64 at most has about 20 watts that it could in theory use but SGI made the CPU and RCP to specifically not use a lot of power or need a lot of cooling as a selling point.
The RDDRAM is a power hog but it shouldn't overheat unless you block the vents or remove the heatsink from the expansion pak. The way RDRAM works is only one chip is active at a time with the others in a kind of standby / sleep mode so with the expansion pak installed that means at any given moment only one out of the four chips (2 on the mainboard, 2 in the expansion pak) is being a power hog. Even Nintendo doesn't recommend leaving the memory expansion cover off.
>Even Nintendo doesn't recommend leaving the memory expansion cover off.
>Yes, Goy-Gaijin, put the cover on, let it cook. It would be a shame if it broke and you have to buy a new consoles, what else would you do with all those games? |^)
https://desuarchive.org/vr/thread/9044648
A bad ROM is a lot more replacable than a custom chip. Quick trip to DigiKey will get you a brand new and more reliable EEPROM made with modern manufacturing standards.
bad storage conditions are biggest killer of retro gear.
>being put in damp basement, attic, etc
who knows where shit has been in 35 years?
https://atariage.com/forums/topic/326138-help-diagnosing-a-black-screen-1200xl/
This shit.
This needs to be stressed. You cannot guarantee something sits in a climate controlled living room for 30 years.
I had heard about the freeze issues on early Famicoms but I've never been able to find a satisfactory explanation for what exactly was causing them.
http://sam.zeloof.xyz/second-ic/
perhaps we'll be able to fab brand new SIDs in our garage eventually
Etching chip dies is pretty nasty since it involves the use of hydrofluoric acid which can dissolve your skin right down to the bone and also destroys the nerve endings so you won't even feel it.
yes.
this guy bought a bunch of premade wafers to experiment on which saved him a lot of the more nasty/dangerous parts of chip fabrication.
>anons willing to potentially kill themselves with horrible chemicals for the sake of 35 year old children's toys
Yeah, hence why you don't do such shit when you're a moron.
Same like working on CRTs. People go chimp when you tell them you're adjusting yoke on a live CRT, same with using hydrofluoric acid, something teenagers in chemistry class used to do before the world turned into bubble wrap.
I don't think you know how horrible HFA is.
why not? won't hurt it
multicolor led's would be cool too, clear case
>trying to claim form and function are the same thing
kek
Once again reinforcing the point that retro gear that has been well taken care of in a climate controlled environment is less likely to fail than stuff stored in an outdoor shed for 10 years.
Did anyone ever claim otherwise?
>never seen a machine not work or fail
Please, alone in my family we had to send two of our Commodore machine to warranty.
yeah we know about the PLA failures. everyone knew that. my dad knew a guy who bought a C64 that was dead out of the box likely due to the PLA.
Bil Herd said they deliberately shipped machines with known bad PLAs to meet sales quotas with the idea that they'd get returned to the factory and the PLA swapped for a known good unit.
The early C64s were definitely quite shitty but Q/C was improving by 1984.