FFXI tried. It's up to each player to say if they were succesful. All I know is that I had a lot of fun exchaning information with my peers because a lot of mechanics were obfuscated, like you say.
I think they succeeded because information wasn't enough. It was *required* to socialize, to become skilled at forming parties and keeping the group dynamic alive, lest you wait another hour to find a replacement.
There are ways to do it, but its kinda risky and you can only do it to a small portion of available mechanics (if it fits the project). A lot of hidden mechanics end up being useless because the player won't notice them or understand how they work, meaning they only really affect players that use outside info. A good example of a game that uses hidden mechanics in a well thought-out way is the combat in the RE2 Remake.
Datamining is a thing, so unless you keep something 100% server side, players will eventually figure it out, and even then, with a large enough number of players, they could reverse engineer any data you're trying to hide empirically. Remember, in WoW, the ilevel formula, with all of its complex logarithms, was reverse engineered in Vanilla, despite the numbers not being visible to the client until late Wrath.
What it basically comes down to is, don't bother. Players that don't want the numbers won't seek them out. Autists who do will stop at nothing until they learn them. Better to save dev time, give them the numbers up front, and let them do with them what they please while you move on to better things.
>play noita >literally nothing is explained >look everything up on the wiki >nobody thinks that's dumb because literally nothing is explained >nobody engages with the secrets and mechanics you put in your game
well of course there are still the eye glyphs and the cauldron room but eh
>play noita >look up on the wiki how to actually engage with the game mechanics >turns out you just have to play 10 minutes of the most simultaneously boring and nerve-wracking game yet conceived by humanity before you're allowed to get wands with worthwhile spells on them
I'm really glad that I got into Noita on the ground floor when no one knew anything about the game. With "The pursuit of knowledge" being the main theme and driving force behind the player character, it felt empowering to be on my own quest for knowledge, literally chartering the map of the universe and sharing secrets and synergies with my fellow anonymous homosexuals. Though now that (almost) everything has been figured out, only the most vigilant, skilled, and inquisitive of players can enjoy the game properly (i.e. not
>play noita >look up on the wiki how to actually engage with the game mechanics >turns out you just have to play 10 minutes of the most simultaneously boring and nerve-wracking game yet conceived by humanity before you're allowed to get wands with worthwhile spells on them
I got in on Noita at launch, because I had been following it for the overall premise (a game that uses what's essentially a powder-toy engine) for years prior to release.
I enjoyed the prospect of learning things too, that's why I initially kept playing, but it just... wasn't intrinsically fun. At all. Seeing people discovering shit while I was still trying to "discover" how to get to the actual start of the video game in as little time as possible without activating my brain was just pure misery.
So I decided to just wait and see if anything changed if I had guides. Nope, still nothing.
I wanted to figure out spell combos and shit on my own, but by the time I get to spells and wands I can actually use for combos, I'm so deathly afraid of losing a half hour of effort that I can't bring myself to do it.
Noita is fricking moronic because the devs think hiding every single piece of information in the game and then forcing you to start from the top of the map after you die to an instant death trap or enemy is deep and hardcore, when it's really just gay
nah I love roguelikes, CLIVAN is probably one of my favorite roguelikes. noita is just bad. Good roguelikes at least tell you information about what you're working with after you toy around with it for a while.
The point of the game is to amass enough knowledge to become the instant death trap.
A fair point, but I'm not referring to just the wand mechanics which are pretty easy to understand
Neither am I. There's a lot more knowledge to be gained than just how to build wands.
2 years ago
Anonymous
Yeah but again, most of it is obscured to the point of not even being worth interacting with. There isn't a fun way to experiment with lots of game mechanics besides replaying the game and then dying instantly after you get the cool wands and other stuff. Don't even get me started on the rune language and secrets.
With datamining and shit, all I can think about is the first Dark Souls. Where no one was 100% sure what humanity did because it was ridiculously complex AND poorly coded so it took ages to figure out, even after data mining everything.
No one explores or experiments anymore. Everyone just looks up a wiki or mindlessly follows whatever some fricking youtuber says is OP MOST BROKEN INCREDIBLE YOU WILL NEVER BELIEVE THIS BUILD type bullshit.
I just started a replay after like 20 years. I never knew everything about the game, but today I finally learned about the gym upgrade from training 10 times in a row or whatever. This game is insane.
As long as you don't go full moron like the Noita devs it's totally fine to hide some information from the players. Monster Hunter is a decent example of it, you aren't told specifically how strong certain elements are in the literal percentage damage boost an element gives, but you know Bazelgeuse takes bonus damage from ice and thunder, so bring that element if you can.
Want to run a raid blind even on launch or patch day? Good fricking luck, there are 20 guide channels all uploading ptr bullshit and websites already telling people who isn't allowed to come
The only way you can avoid this moronation is by playing purely single player games
>The only way you can avoid this moronation is by playing purely single player games
Pretty much, the only other thing I could think of would be specifically assembling a group that wants to play together with the same mindset of staying away from metagaming and figuring stuff out themselves. At that point you'd pretty much be taking on the task of trying to build and maintain a decently sized guild though, if you wanted to be able to try content like raids where you have a frickton of players. And I really don't know how feasible that would be in the long term
I think the problem lies with players. Just don't use the wiki. Just immerse yourself in the game. I have been gaming since I could hold a controller, and at 28, it's just not an issue for me to focus on the game.
Item level has ruined gaming. Over 99% of item score gear has the same stats of varying values respective to the type of piece. You have an unyielding and obvious sense of direction of where your progression is supposed to go and an objective pass/fail to your equipment level when it comes to being a viable player of a class. This is further compounded by how incredibly easy it is to deprecate all previously released equipment and items since their power formula is linear and easily changed. You are basically starting at ground zero every level cap increase or expansion which gives you a nihilistic mindset as a player. On top of that, the game is designed completely around collecting equipment yet one armor set is expected to do everything since there is no hot swapping in combat. This not only shortens the treadmill significantly but makes unique bit less powerful items completely worthless, not to mention most items are used on multiple classes (type). This forces the game maker to retain players purely with new content alone, which is difficult, but in todays market-where a single long term project is still shat out half finished-is practically impossible. People will skip looking up guides if they feel compelled to
>Went from roleplaying and enjoying himself to a number-huffing, wiki-slurping homosexual
That's his own personal problem. I can play games just find without having to sift through the Internet looking for webpages that tell me about every little mechanic and feature in the game. MMOs included. Though the number-huffing is not entirely his fault. Every single MMO in existence was specifically designed to not have meaningful content. They were glorified chatrooms made during a time when interacting with large numbers of people on the Internet was still a novelty, when it was still exciting. That's why old MMOs just have you camping mob spawns for dozens of hours with a party of players, so you could socialize. The other players were the content. But then Tigole aka Jeff Kaplan, the biggest numbergay poopsocker to ever grace EverQuest, was hired by Blizzard in order to help design WoW. That's when the MMO genre became entirely about the numbers. A game made by moronic addicted to numbers, marketed to morons addicted to numbers. And it was a smash hit, so of course other MMO devs started to copy their formula.
However, there is still one single hope, one game that's been around since before the numberhomosexualry took root. A game that, while still including copious amounts of grind and downtime for socializing, also took the time to make well-written stories, grand, challenging quests with significant rewards, actual gameplay and enjoyment in the MMO genre.
Yes. It's one of the most expansive Point & Click Adventure games ever made, with quests that rival even most modern RPGS. What makes you say that it doesn't have gameplay?
Runescape with its wiki, cheating third-party clients and "quality of life updates" is the worst by far
The game definitely has a lot of heretical peripherals and most of the playerbase is number-huffers, but it's better off than other MMOs who provide nothing but that sort of content.
>What makes you say that it doesn't have gameplay?
you answered it yourself also the combat is complete dogshit which is the reason you do 98% of the stuff you do in this game
Because they're all number-slurping homosexuals who are on their 3rd+ account. Their homosexualry does not prevent your enjoyment of the games' quests.
But there are tons of quests that are just shitty and only done because they give good XP or are a mandatory prequest for something else
Runescape has a handful of good quests, most mediocre and all of them made shittier if you don't number gay and get a lot of agi and/or magic for teleporting
You have to get your skills up to do many quests period and especially if you want to do them comfortably. With how low xp rates already are you're just back to optimizing everything hard
Only the very endgame quests require high skill levels, and even then they only go up to ~70. Because XP requirements for levels grow exponentially, getting 40 or even 50 in a skill is a lot easier and faster than it sounds. >there are tons of quests that are just shitty and only done because they give good XP or are a mandatory prequest for something else
Explain which which quests are bad and why.
Basically all of the good quests were made over 15 years ago when the game was made and owned by different people. OSRS is just the corpse of a good game puppeteered by the absolute worst of the modern MMO genre.
Explain which quests are bad and why.
2 years ago
Anonymous
>Explain which quests are bad and why.
One of the new quests is a Scream parody where an npc woman BGS specs the killer.
2 years ago
Anonymous
Yeah, that is a bad quest. It was a shitty Halloween one-off that for some reason they voted to make a permanent quest. Now, the others?
2 years ago
Anonymous
Even grinding to 50 on most skills is painfully slow to the average player
You wouldn't understand because your brain has been rotten by runescape where people shit their pants to rank smithing xp
And again, the rates get even worse, sometimes massively so, if you aren't doing the optimal routes from using the wiki or experience. Go train hunter from 1 to 50 catching butterflies or something instead of going Varrock Museum->Birdhouses or Fight Arena without safespotting on a new character
2 years ago
Anonymous
It's not that you're barred from using the most optimal training methods, you just ask your fellow players for advice instead of looking it up on the wiki. >"What's the difference?"
Socialization is what MMOs were made for, they were literally dependent on players entertaining each other. RuneScape is no different in that regard, it just ALSO has one of the best Point & Click Adventure experiences on the market.
2 years ago
Anonymous
In no way is somebody regurgitating wiki guides to you entertaining each other
People aren't sharing their random organically found farm spots they're just going to spit meta wiki info back at you
Ontop of that, asking people the best way to farm anyway is still numbergayging. This all goes back to you have to numbergay to make runescape tolerable because it's just a number go up game
2 years ago
Anonymous
>In no way is somebody regurgitating wiki guides to you entertaining each other
It's an icebreaker, an excuse for you to start up a conversation with someone. You don't just walk away after someone responds, you continue the conversation and try to form a relationship, or at least an experience with another person. >This all goes back to you have to numbergay to make runescape tolerable because it's just a number go up game
Socialization is what MMOs were made for, they were literally dependent on players entertaining each other. RuneScape is no different in that regard, it just ALSO has one of the best Point & Click Adventure experiences on the market.
2 years ago
Anonymous
>It's an icebreaker, an excuse for you to start up a conversation with someone.
No, "Hey whats up" is an icebreaker, followed by them telling you to frick off or changing worlds if you do this in areas where resources are shared because runescape is a number go up game and people dont want you stealing their chins no matter how much you socialize while you do it
2 years ago
Anonymous
That boils down to a skill issue.
2 years ago
Anonymous
>people not wanting you to take their chinchompas is a skill issue
lol
lmao
sorry your favorite MMO is just a skinnerbox anon
2 years ago
Anonymous
No, your social skills are lacking. There are literally dozens of popular training locations where players aren't competing for resources, you trying to socialize during one of the only training activities that takes place in the wilderness is your own failure, not the game's.
2 years ago
Anonymous
Chins arent only in the wilderness and showing up at someones chins not in the wilderness isnt any more popular
2 years ago
Anonymous
No, your social skills are lacking. There are literally dozens of popular training locations where players aren't competing for resources, you trying to socialize during one of the only training activities that takes place in the wilderness is your own failure, not the game's.
2 years ago
Anonymous
Why do you keep trying to make this about the wilderness when red chins are nowhere near it?
2 years ago
Anonymous
Alright, I'll type it slower this time. Maybe then you'll be able to read it.
There are literally dozens of popular training locations where players aren't competing for resources
2 years ago
Anonymous
>Alright, I'll type it slower this time
All you had to do was stop strawmanning, wasn't that hard was it?
Too bad some areas being shared resources doesn't negate many being fought over. You cant just ignore that crashing is a thing and game mechanics actively make people not want you around sometimes because it cuts into their number going up speed
2 years ago
Anonymous
I didn't change what I said, I only singled out the part that you kept ignoring because it defeated the point you were making. Outside of hunting, mining for runite, and crabs, you can coexist with others while doing any other training activity. You trying to socialize during one of the only competitive activities is your fault and yours alone.
OSRS literally has a fricking shortcut to the game's wiki built into its game UI
Heretical, I know.
2 years ago
Anonymous
You were actively deflecting to the pvp region when it wasn't part of the discussion
And now you concede again that its not just hunter people dont want you around for but even more
How about we expand that list again?
Any mob farm where there are good and bad spawn spots you dont want others around for. Especially ones where only a limited number of mobs can be safespotted
Any time youre trying to buy out vendor items or buy in bulk
Thieving stalls
I mean combat alone covers 7 of the skills in runescape. Its not a rare occurrence that people want to be alone
2 years ago
Anonymous
You brought up chins. Black chins are in the wilderness. But if you're interested in playing the numbers game by listing off some examples, I can do that too. Activities that stay in one place where socialization is not hindered by the game's mechanics: >Mining guild >Woocutting Guild >Woodcutting >Fishing Guild >Fishing >Farming Guild >Crafting blood runes >Cannonless slayer >Raids >Pickpocketing >Agility courses >Fletching >Herblore >Crafting >Cooking >Wintertodt >Fishingtodt >Smithingtodt >Runecrafttodt >Fishing Trawler >Pest Control >Barbarian Assault >Shades of Mort'ton >Warriors Guild >Smithing >Blast Furnace >Tai Bwo Wannai Cleanup >Imbuing orbs >Tears of Guthix >Zeah rep farming
That's just after a cursory glance at the skills list.
2 years ago
Anonymous
Only Ironmen need to buy from vendors. Ironmen aren't people.
2 years ago
Anonymous
>Even grinding to 50 on most skills is painfully slow to the average player >the average player then screeches about learning great exp methods and will say that being efficient killed the game
theres no pleasing you morons.
2 years ago
Anonymous
Not that anon, but complaining about skills taking an eternity to level without having to sit and autism click at a peak efficiency location with no downtime for talking with other players (aka, the real reason to play an mmo) isn't a contradictory set of beliefs, its the same belief expressed in 2 ways. I'd explain more, but I think people who defend runescape's design are genuine morons and I don't want to catch any of your extra chromosomes.
2 years ago
Anonymous
Just don't do the autism EHP leveling methods then. No skills require them.
2 years ago
Anonymous
>taking an eternity to level without having to sit and autism click at a peak efficiency location with no downtime for talking with other players
you dont play the game. if you were to get base 70s in all stats which si aorund 737,000 exp it doesnt take an eternity at all. Most (bad methods imo) of training grant about 60k-70k exp per hour in training for each skill, it's not difficult to choose from many methods. IF socialization is your primary objective when training, it's obtainable. I've seen people talk to eachother and try to start conversations in methods I consider click intensive that grant six figure exp. You don't play the game.
2 years ago
Anonymous
t. moron who has 1000s of hours in RS and probably has several dozen 99s
Bruh RS was my main game when I was a preteen and I barely got skills above 40 and I probably had hundreds of hours in the game ( I completed all the f2p quests)
The grind is absolutely moronic for casual players.
2 years ago
Anonymous
"bruh" it was because you were a moron preteen lmao.
2 years ago
Anonymous
moronic children and manchildren are the only ones who have the time to do the RS skilling grind
2 years ago
Anonymous
No grown man says "bruh" fricking homosexual.
2 years ago
Anonymous
stop the cap senpai fr fr on god
not everyone is from your cultural upbringing
[spoilers]Ganker memes got to me, I'd never say that shit irl[/spoilers]
2 years ago
Anonymous
Sadly they do. Zoom zooms are adults now. I met a 20 year old who called his outfit his "drip" on Saturday.
2 years ago
Anonymous
NTA but I had the same experience. You know why? Because we were literal children.
Basically all of the good quests were made over 15 years ago when the game was made and owned by different people. OSRS is just the corpse of a good game puppeteered by the absolute worst of the modern MMO genre.
It always had numbers, but it was never a number go up autism game. The Gower Brothers found it inconceivable that any player would achieve just a single 99, it never even crossed their minds. The socialization and world building was always the point.
I play MMO's like the top pic. I avoid wikis like the plague. Probably why I enjoy it until I reach max level then I move on because all MMO's now are raid or quit and raids are shit.
>DONT do auction houses/automated trading garbage >DONT do "reroll for 0.00001% quality equipment!" mechanics >DONT do timegates >DONT do chat/action censoring unless its flooding >DONT allow automated trade/chat bots >DO good quests (runescape) >DO good gameplay especially combat (warframe) >DO meaningful endgame farming >DO gatekeeping >DO trading systems with item limits per trade (encourages smart item:value ratio usage in trading, otherwise be ready to chance getting scammed) >DO rare item equipment drops rather than rare item prefixes
>DONT do timegates
One of my favorite memories of DAoC was sitting on the pad waiting on gothi to port into enemy realms. Then there was always that one guy that forget his neck
there's no going back. the internet killed WoW and mmo's in general. >b-bbut my thottbott existed back then!
Like 6 people knew about it. Everyone else was keyboard turning and farming clams.
The solution is don't play MMOs if that's what you want. There's no way an MMO can keep up with player consumption which is why IF an MMO attempts to offer story and exploration it will be padded out to the nth degree.
What mmos have lost most is the communication and comfiness of it. You don't meet people to form teams or guilds, you just click a button and are assigned to one. Does anyone talk in the group? No, they're just trying to run through the dungeon ASAP.
Want to join a guild? Search one and apply, never meet a member and form a connection. Does anyone talk in the guild? Probably not unless they're raiding so unless you're also raiding then the chat might as well not exist.
Every mmo is a massive single player experience now where other players might as well be NPCs, they all feel like .hack.
I too like to lay claim to random landmarks. In the New World beta my character was a swamp hermit who owned a monopoly on all of the oil shale deposits in the area (a scarce resource that people required a lot of and it was only available in that area). Whenever I saw someone trying to mine oil shale I would lure mobs over to interrupt them and then mine it for myself. The experience was greatly enhanced by the presence of VOIP.
>Is there a solution to this problem?
No. The longer you spend in a digital world the more its luster wears thin.
Doubly so for genres where there isn't much differentiating between games other than the coat of paint like WoW era MMOs.
It's literally a result of gaining knowledge about the game and its systems, which you won't be able to avoid doing unless you're a half functional moron.
no, millennials and zoomer just want to quickly play through a game and finish it as soon as possible
no thinking required, just follow instructions and get participation trophy, anything else can be covered by their favorite youtuber or fandom in a video
It's the absolute worst to play with friends who behave like the bottom panel while you're still top panel. Not an MMO but Diablo is great when you just give yourself to the world instead of being autistic.
The problem is all the filler. Most quests are boring filler but can be done fast. While long quest that chain will often not be worth their reward. This needs to be balanced.
Example in WoW its quicker to level to just do the get rid of X number of Y. Meanwhile Duskwood had a 13 part quest chain with a great story across three zones that even got referenced in a later expansion dungeon if you went off the rails exploring. But it gave jack frick all, took lots of travel time, and didn't even give much xp.
They also revolve around the top end players that burn through content quickly so instead of the journey its a non-stop focus on getting to the end. This is not the point of the RPG part of the MMORPG. This was because dickheads from EQ were given the keys to WoW and everything after copied that. So old content is constantly rendered worthless to keep the wheel going.
GW2 actually had a good system there for scaling so people could play together but it just did so much else poorly.
A level shouldn't be just a woosh, it should be a big damn deal of getting new power.
tl;dr;
Long interesting quests need reward that are worth it, slow pace focused on doing things instead of loot pinata, loot that counts, levels that count, rewards for working with others. Its a less is more thing. They are their best when you are adventuring somewhere interesting and at their worst when its just a grind to chase the last .2% of the content.
>Is there a solution to this problem?
I've thought about it a lot and I think there are ways to limit disillusionment through game design, but at some point the players have to put in some of the work. I was really lucky to have played my first MMO with a group of other noobs that were willing to play blind, we learned the dungeons ourselves, figured out our own farming routes, made our own builds. If you're willing to play games the way they're meant to be played you can still have an amazing time with them.
>Game has an auction house >Game has towers with nothing in them >Game has pvp ganking
Those are just intentional self-sabotage. Takes no effort to simply not put obvious known flaws in your game on purpose. >Game has kill 15 mobs quests >Game has combat reducible to a single macro
These require competency to solve, you have to make the game not bad, which some developers might not be capable of doing.
Double monitors, smartphones.
If you had to focus entirely on the game (no looking over at your second monitor during downtime or your phone), you'd have little else to do but talk to your fellow players. That's how it used to work. Unfortunately there's no solution for this.
3rd party communication programs too. No one talks in-game anymore because everyone's on Discord. Join a guild and that shit's dead with just a Discord link in the MOTD, then you join it and 2/3rds of the people are playing a different game.
I tried the Red server when it first came out. I had fun fricking around but could only take a few hours of huddling around the same group of mob spawns farming exp
MMO players are beyond saving. They b***h about metas and the game wasting their time, then at the same time do everything they can to power through the game, usually with the excuse that they "need to do it to keep up with other players" when they're almost always playing solo in non-competitive content. Then to top it all off they b***h about how it's not as magical as their first time playing.
I only play singleplayer games.
I never replay linear games.
I never look up wikis(unless I'm hopelessly stuck(which doesn't happen).
I never watch streams or youtube videos about the game before playing it.
I only engage with the *fandom* if I'm already beaten the game.
I'm always immersed.
I'm having fun.
It's that simple, bros.
As has been said many times before most players cannot help themselves but to optimize the fun and mystery out of everything. This age of knowledge we're in has just exacerbated the issue with data mining being extremely prevalent that it's essentially the norm. People don't like to be surprised anymore, they don't want to invest the effort into learning something organically. They want to be told by "smarter people" how to approach things.
Sure strategy guides existed but it's not quite to the same degree. A lot of the bad ones could be inaccurate and not every person playing will own one. A lot of information is free these days so more people tend to look up info.
>A lot of information is free these days so more people tend to look up info.
Kind of my point, I had to go to the library to look shit up on the computer, and I did plenty times for just about every game I was into. Whether it was for codes or secrets. If I had my own computer/internet when I was a kid I would have done the same people are doing now.
There is no viable solution. The only solution is to have a population small enough to have the game be shrouded in mystery, with no easily-accessible information. This also means the game is dying, dead, or is constantly on the verge of such.
This used to be easier to achieve, since the size required for a game to have easily-accessible information was much higher. But the prominence of wikis, subreddits, and youtube videos has changed the landscape.
The solution is to touch grass and expand your consciousness in other ways, you already got all the juice you can out of screens and fantasies, try mushrooms or cooking or working out instead
What we need is to encourage players to not share everything they find publicly. If information was seen as valuable and had an in-game advantage, everyone would shut the frick up. I'd love to see people hype up certain build in an online game while making a counter to that build, or hyping up a build that SOUNDS powerful but is based on misleading or outright wrong info so the whole thing falls apart.
Something like that happened in Maplestory 2. Before the English version came out, some EN players VPN'd into the Korean version and tried to be competitive, but got BTFO. Then the English version comes out and these same people try to control the game. In one instance they got GMs to stop appearing in-game and interacting with players because they threw a shitfit over one silly event they did that skewed the leaderboards during the closed beta of the game, where all progress would've been wiped anyway. The game ran for a little while before raids came out, and during that time people were gearing up. Raids came and people with the best gear possible were still getting mogged in the DPS category by these players who had been playing the Korean version. Turns out that pets in that game give you a hidden flat bonus to your DPS, with the amount being dependent on the pet's rarity and level. Pets were seemingly inconsequential so up until that point no one but those who had played the Korean version had known to farm for max rarity pets.
>been playing wow with some bros ever since 2012 >cycles of it being boring, dropping it for years then coming back >recently start playing turtle-wow and ironically RP, read all the quest text ect >actually quite enjoyable
RP chads, how I wish I saw the light earlier...
Solution is what warframe did a long time ago. >all levels are random tilesets >sometimes with hidden caches sometimes without >gear and character separate but compatible for fun builds >enhancements allow for different specs >enhancements rarely game defining >gear is more about style, output depends on enhancements >use rock paper scissors mechanics for damage
I could go on.
Obviously they made it a farm fest but back in the first few years it wasn't that bad and a lot of info was sparse
The combat system in that game is definitely one of the very few things they got right. Though there was still a meta around how to mod your weapons. With so few mod slots there's no space for using any of the more niche mods.
just limit the amount of offensive mods so you're forced to use niche mods. gets rid of power creep and makes the game more fun. also add ability cooldowns so you can't abuse op frames
the core state of the game is broken, so no matter if you nerf a few weapons or a frame there'll always be other op stuff to exploit. you need to redo the entire game, bring it back to a state like when the game released, when the game was challenging and you actually had to aim, shoot and move around to not die. now it's just a "press [insert one button here] to win" boring ass grinder. i don't mind grinding as long as i'm playing good gameplay while grinding, and it's just not the case in current warframe
Yeah, I don't think there's anything they can do at this point to turn things around. Steve was mulling over Damage 3.0 for years but I bet that still hasn't happened yet. If you're not a new player experiencing the combat and the movement for the first time, the most fun you can have is by figuring out how to exploit the game, breaking out of the map and shit.
2 years ago
Anonymous
>the most fun you can have is by figuring out how to exploit the game
this, it was a lot of fun getting there but once i figured it all out it got boring real quick. saryn + sobek is by far the most op build i made without copying some build from some site, but then as i was playing i realized the only reason i had left for playing is fashionframe and i didn't care all that much about that. will post pics if you ask tho
2 years ago
Anonymous
You sound like you want to. Vauban was always my favorite. He was a king when CC was still the meta, and he never suffered from a nerf in my entire time playing the game. Even when they reworked him he was still the best CC frame in the game, and on top of that they gave him a good damage ability AND utility buffs like movement speed and weapon damage? I had it all to myself too, because no one wanted to bother doing the uncommon alerts for his parts AND all of his prime parts are rares. I had it pretty good all things considered.
2 years ago
Anonymous
the first two on the left are both saryn, but i can't decide for the life of me which looks better. when lavos came out i loved the concept so much, i always wanted and occult-y alchemy frame, too bad he's kinda boring and tedious to play. valkyr and inaros were my two mains until i figured out saryn, the furis with the lifesteal mod also carried me through the early game
MMOs need to be redesigned. I think a lot of it will be removing the numbers we see on screen. Just give people an idea of "this person is stronger/weaker than me, by a little/lot." That can even be with something simple, like a color behind a nameplate (or border around the character.)
And MMO worlds suck. We have to make them interesting without players, and then let the players join.
Vetical progression has always been the issue with MMO's. The second you gate a reward being a time/content investment you're going to invite the autists who either turbogrind it or minmax to find the most efficient route. Remember how assmad people were when FFXIV 1.0 had a limit to how many missions a character could do in a day? I don't really know how to get around this without having a great core gameplay loop that would keep people coming back without an artificial reward.
Blame the internet. There's too much content available. A bajillion games come out every day. One of the guys who worked on Pokemon, or maybe just someone like Miyamoto, said something about how people have too many games they wanna play nowadays and he was right. The average user was much younger back then too, so not only were there less decent games coming out for them to split their attention on, they didn't have as much access to them since a lot of them were kids. Nowadays some people feel like they gotta rush through the content before they miss out on the next flavor of the moss.
A lot of games are also too popular for their own good, and always have a small population of dedicated autists that will find and figure out everything there is to know about a game and dump it all on a wiki.
I've often wondered if there was some way to obscure game mechanics, not sure how it'd be feasible while still having a fun game
FFXI tried. It's up to each player to say if they were succesful. All I know is that I had a lot of fun exchaning information with my peers because a lot of mechanics were obfuscated, like you say.
I think they succeeded because information wasn't enough. It was *required* to socialize, to become skilled at forming parties and keeping the group dynamic alive, lest you wait another hour to find a replacement.
It would be pretty hard to do this as a game dev, once you start making games, you just see numbers and mechanics in everything you play and make.
There are ways to do it, but its kinda risky and you can only do it to a small portion of available mechanics (if it fits the project). A lot of hidden mechanics end up being useless because the player won't notice them or understand how they work, meaning they only really affect players that use outside info. A good example of a game that uses hidden mechanics in a well thought-out way is the combat in the RE2 Remake.
Datamining is a thing, so unless you keep something 100% server side, players will eventually figure it out, and even then, with a large enough number of players, they could reverse engineer any data you're trying to hide empirically. Remember, in WoW, the ilevel formula, with all of its complex logarithms, was reverse engineered in Vanilla, despite the numbers not being visible to the client until late Wrath.
What it basically comes down to is, don't bother. Players that don't want the numbers won't seek them out. Autists who do will stop at nothing until they learn them. Better to save dev time, give them the numbers up front, and let them do with them what they please while you move on to better things.
>play noita
>literally nothing is explained
>look everything up on the wiki
>nobody thinks that's dumb because literally nothing is explained
>nobody engages with the secrets and mechanics you put in your game
well of course there are still the eye glyphs and the cauldron room but eh
>play noita
>look up on the wiki how to actually engage with the game mechanics
>turns out you just have to play 10 minutes of the most simultaneously boring and nerve-wracking game yet conceived by humanity before you're allowed to get wands with worthwhile spells on them
I'm really glad that I got into Noita on the ground floor when no one knew anything about the game. With "The pursuit of knowledge" being the main theme and driving force behind the player character, it felt empowering to be on my own quest for knowledge, literally chartering the map of the universe and sharing secrets and synergies with my fellow anonymous homosexuals. Though now that (almost) everything has been figured out, only the most vigilant, skilled, and inquisitive of players can enjoy the game properly (i.e. not
).
I got in on Noita at launch, because I had been following it for the overall premise (a game that uses what's essentially a powder-toy engine) for years prior to release.
I enjoyed the prospect of learning things too, that's why I initially kept playing, but it just... wasn't intrinsically fun. At all. Seeing people discovering shit while I was still trying to "discover" how to get to the actual start of the video game in as little time as possible without activating my brain was just pure misery.
So I decided to just wait and see if anything changed if I had guides. Nope, still nothing.
I wanted to figure out spell combos and shit on my own, but by the time I get to spells and wands I can actually use for combos, I'm so deathly afraid of losing a half hour of effort that I can't bring myself to do it.
Noita is fricking moronic because the devs think hiding every single piece of information in the game and then forcing you to start from the top of the map after you die to an instant death trap or enemy is deep and hardcore, when it's really just gay
roguelikes just aren't for you my man, im sorry
nah I love roguelikes, CLIVAN is probably one of my favorite roguelikes. noita is just bad. Good roguelikes at least tell you information about what you're working with after you toy around with it for a while.
A fair point, but I'm not referring to just the wand mechanics which are pretty easy to understand
Neither am I. There's a lot more knowledge to be gained than just how to build wands.
Yeah but again, most of it is obscured to the point of not even being worth interacting with. There isn't a fun way to experiment with lots of game mechanics besides replaying the game and then dying instantly after you get the cool wands and other stuff. Don't even get me started on the rune language and secrets.
The point of the game is to amass enough knowledge to become the instant death trap.
With datamining and shit, all I can think about is the first Dark Souls. Where no one was 100% sure what humanity did because it was ridiculously complex AND poorly coded so it took ages to figure out, even after data mining everything.
No one explores or experiments anymore. Everyone just looks up a wiki or mindlessly follows whatever some fricking youtuber says is OP MOST BROKEN INCREDIBLE YOU WILL NEVER BELIEVE THIS BUILD type bullshit.
digimon world 1
I just started a replay after like 20 years. I never knew everything about the game, but today I finally learned about the gym upgrade from training 10 times in a row or whatever. This game is insane.
As long as you don't go full moron like the Noita devs it's totally fine to hide some information from the players. Monster Hunter is a decent example of it, you aren't told specifically how strong certain elements are in the literal percentage damage boost an element gives, but you know Bazelgeuse takes bonus damage from ice and thunder, so bring that element if you can.
Literally is his own problem the game is still the same he just became a wikigay
this. there is no problem he just isn't a RPer anymore
me second dis
Wikigays make it everyone else's problem
Want to run a raid blind even on launch or patch day? Good fricking luck, there are 20 guide channels all uploading ptr bullshit and websites already telling people who isn't allowed to come
The only way you can avoid this moronation is by playing purely single player games
>The only way you can avoid this moronation is by playing purely single player games
Pretty much, the only other thing I could think of would be specifically assembling a group that wants to play together with the same mindset of staying away from metagaming and figuring stuff out themselves. At that point you'd pretty much be taking on the task of trying to build and maintain a decently sized guild though, if you wanted to be able to try content like raids where you have a frickton of players. And I really don't know how feasible that would be in the long term
You have no faith in the real world being grounded, so as a result you have lost your ability to suspend disbelief in fantasy.
I think the problem lies with players. Just don't use the wiki. Just immerse yourself in the game. I have been gaming since I could hold a controller, and at 28, it's just not an issue for me to focus on the game.
>I think the problem lies with players.
Have you played an MMORPG that was released in the last ten years? Design is to blame.
Make more interesting quests and give environmental features some actual content
Item level has ruined gaming. Over 99% of item score gear has the same stats of varying values respective to the type of piece. You have an unyielding and obvious sense of direction of where your progression is supposed to go and an objective pass/fail to your equipment level when it comes to being a viable player of a class. This is further compounded by how incredibly easy it is to deprecate all previously released equipment and items since their power formula is linear and easily changed. You are basically starting at ground zero every level cap increase or expansion which gives you a nihilistic mindset as a player. On top of that, the game is designed completely around collecting equipment yet one armor set is expected to do everything since there is no hot swapping in combat. This not only shortens the treadmill significantly but makes unique bit less powerful items completely worthless, not to mention most items are used on multiple classes (type). This forces the game maker to retain players purely with new content alone, which is difficult, but in todays market-where a single long term project is still shat out half finished-is practically impossible. People will skip looking up guides if they feel compelled to
>Went from roleplaying and enjoying himself to a number-huffing, wiki-slurping homosexual
That's his own personal problem. I can play games just find without having to sift through the Internet looking for webpages that tell me about every little mechanic and feature in the game. MMOs included. Though the number-huffing is not entirely his fault. Every single MMO in existence was specifically designed to not have meaningful content. They were glorified chatrooms made during a time when interacting with large numbers of people on the Internet was still a novelty, when it was still exciting. That's why old MMOs just have you camping mob spawns for dozens of hours with a party of players, so you could socialize. The other players were the content. But then Tigole aka Jeff Kaplan, the biggest numbergay poopsocker to ever grace EverQuest, was hired by Blizzard in order to help design WoW. That's when the MMO genre became entirely about the numbers. A game made by moronic addicted to numbers, marketed to morons addicted to numbers. And it was a smash hit, so of course other MMO devs started to copy their formula.
However, there is still one single hope, one game that's been around since before the numberhomosexualry took root. A game that, while still including copious amounts of grind and downtime for socializing, also took the time to make well-written stories, grand, challenging quests with significant rewards, actual gameplay and enjoyment in the MMO genre.
>actual gameplay and enjoyment
Yes. It's one of the most expansive Point & Click Adventure games ever made, with quests that rival even most modern RPGS. What makes you say that it doesn't have gameplay?
The game definitely has a lot of heretical peripherals and most of the playerbase is number-huffers, but it's better off than other MMOs who provide nothing but that sort of content.
>What makes you say that it doesn't have gameplay?
you answered it yourself also the combat is complete dogshit which is the reason you do 98% of the stuff you do in this game
>you answered it yourself
How so?
>also the combat is complete dogshit
How so?
Runescape with its wiki, cheating third-party clients and "quality of life updates" is the worst by far
How is runescape not about numbers lmao
The most crowded place in osrs is wintertodt. Is everyone there because they just love the minigame that much?
Because they're all number-slurping homosexuals who are on their 3rd+ account. Their homosexualry does not prevent your enjoyment of the games' quests.
But there are tons of quests that are just shitty and only done because they give good XP or are a mandatory prequest for something else
Runescape has a handful of good quests, most mediocre and all of them made shittier if you don't number gay and get a lot of agi and/or magic for teleporting
You have to get your skills up to do many quests period and especially if you want to do them comfortably. With how low xp rates already are you're just back to optimizing everything hard
Only the very endgame quests require high skill levels, and even then they only go up to ~70. Because XP requirements for levels grow exponentially, getting 40 or even 50 in a skill is a lot easier and faster than it sounds.
>there are tons of quests that are just shitty and only done because they give good XP or are a mandatory prequest for something else
Explain which which quests are bad and why.
Explain which quests are bad and why.
>Explain which quests are bad and why.
One of the new quests is a Scream parody where an npc woman BGS specs the killer.
Yeah, that is a bad quest. It was a shitty Halloween one-off that for some reason they voted to make a permanent quest. Now, the others?
Even grinding to 50 on most skills is painfully slow to the average player
You wouldn't understand because your brain has been rotten by runescape where people shit their pants to rank smithing xp
And again, the rates get even worse, sometimes massively so, if you aren't doing the optimal routes from using the wiki or experience. Go train hunter from 1 to 50 catching butterflies or something instead of going Varrock Museum->Birdhouses or Fight Arena without safespotting on a new character
It's not that you're barred from using the most optimal training methods, you just ask your fellow players for advice instead of looking it up on the wiki.
>"What's the difference?"
Socialization is what MMOs were made for, they were literally dependent on players entertaining each other. RuneScape is no different in that regard, it just ALSO has one of the best Point & Click Adventure experiences on the market.
In no way is somebody regurgitating wiki guides to you entertaining each other
People aren't sharing their random organically found farm spots they're just going to spit meta wiki info back at you
Ontop of that, asking people the best way to farm anyway is still numbergayging. This all goes back to you have to numbergay to make runescape tolerable because it's just a number go up game
>In no way is somebody regurgitating wiki guides to you entertaining each other
It's an icebreaker, an excuse for you to start up a conversation with someone. You don't just walk away after someone responds, you continue the conversation and try to form a relationship, or at least an experience with another person.
>This all goes back to you have to numbergay to make runescape tolerable because it's just a number go up game
Socialization is what MMOs were made for, they were literally dependent on players entertaining each other. RuneScape is no different in that regard, it just ALSO has one of the best Point & Click Adventure experiences on the market.
>It's an icebreaker, an excuse for you to start up a conversation with someone.
No, "Hey whats up" is an icebreaker, followed by them telling you to frick off or changing worlds if you do this in areas where resources are shared because runescape is a number go up game and people dont want you stealing their chins no matter how much you socialize while you do it
That boils down to a skill issue.
>people not wanting you to take their chinchompas is a skill issue
lol
lmao
sorry your favorite MMO is just a skinnerbox anon
No, your social skills are lacking. There are literally dozens of popular training locations where players aren't competing for resources, you trying to socialize during one of the only training activities that takes place in the wilderness is your own failure, not the game's.
Chins arent only in the wilderness and showing up at someones chins not in the wilderness isnt any more popular
No, your social skills are lacking. There are literally dozens of popular training locations where players aren't competing for resources, you trying to socialize during one of the only training activities that takes place in the wilderness is your own failure, not the game's.
Why do you keep trying to make this about the wilderness when red chins are nowhere near it?
Alright, I'll type it slower this time. Maybe then you'll be able to read it.
There are literally dozens of popular training locations where players aren't competing for resources
>Alright, I'll type it slower this time
All you had to do was stop strawmanning, wasn't that hard was it?
Too bad some areas being shared resources doesn't negate many being fought over. You cant just ignore that crashing is a thing and game mechanics actively make people not want you around sometimes because it cuts into their number going up speed
I didn't change what I said, I only singled out the part that you kept ignoring because it defeated the point you were making. Outside of hunting, mining for runite, and crabs, you can coexist with others while doing any other training activity. You trying to socialize during one of the only competitive activities is your fault and yours alone.
Heretical, I know.
You were actively deflecting to the pvp region when it wasn't part of the discussion
And now you concede again that its not just hunter people dont want you around for but even more
How about we expand that list again?
Any mob farm where there are good and bad spawn spots you dont want others around for. Especially ones where only a limited number of mobs can be safespotted
Any time youre trying to buy out vendor items or buy in bulk
Thieving stalls
I mean combat alone covers 7 of the skills in runescape. Its not a rare occurrence that people want to be alone
You brought up chins. Black chins are in the wilderness. But if you're interested in playing the numbers game by listing off some examples, I can do that too. Activities that stay in one place where socialization is not hindered by the game's mechanics:
>Mining guild
>Woocutting Guild
>Woodcutting
>Fishing Guild
>Fishing
>Farming Guild
>Crafting blood runes
>Cannonless slayer
>Raids
>Pickpocketing
>Agility courses
>Fletching
>Herblore
>Crafting
>Cooking
>Wintertodt
>Fishingtodt
>Smithingtodt
>Runecrafttodt
>Fishing Trawler
>Pest Control
>Barbarian Assault
>Shades of Mort'ton
>Warriors Guild
>Smithing
>Blast Furnace
>Tai Bwo Wannai Cleanup
>Imbuing orbs
>Tears of Guthix
>Zeah rep farming
That's just after a cursory glance at the skills list.
Only Ironmen need to buy from vendors. Ironmen aren't people.
>Even grinding to 50 on most skills is painfully slow to the average player
>the average player then screeches about learning great exp methods and will say that being efficient killed the game
theres no pleasing you morons.
Not that anon, but complaining about skills taking an eternity to level without having to sit and autism click at a peak efficiency location with no downtime for talking with other players (aka, the real reason to play an mmo) isn't a contradictory set of beliefs, its the same belief expressed in 2 ways. I'd explain more, but I think people who defend runescape's design are genuine morons and I don't want to catch any of your extra chromosomes.
Just don't do the autism EHP leveling methods then. No skills require them.
>taking an eternity to level without having to sit and autism click at a peak efficiency location with no downtime for talking with other players
you dont play the game. if you were to get base 70s in all stats which si aorund 737,000 exp it doesnt take an eternity at all. Most (bad methods imo) of training grant about 60k-70k exp per hour in training for each skill, it's not difficult to choose from many methods. IF socialization is your primary objective when training, it's obtainable. I've seen people talk to eachother and try to start conversations in methods I consider click intensive that grant six figure exp. You don't play the game.
t. moron who has 1000s of hours in RS and probably has several dozen 99s
Bruh RS was my main game when I was a preteen and I barely got skills above 40 and I probably had hundreds of hours in the game ( I completed all the f2p quests)
The grind is absolutely moronic for casual players.
"bruh" it was because you were a moron preteen lmao.
moronic children and manchildren are the only ones who have the time to do the RS skilling grind
No grown man says "bruh" fricking homosexual.
stop the cap senpai fr fr on god
not everyone is from your cultural upbringing
[spoilers]Ganker memes got to me, I'd never say that shit irl[/spoilers]
Sadly they do. Zoom zooms are adults now. I met a 20 year old who called his outfit his "drip" on Saturday.
NTA but I had the same experience. You know why? Because we were literal children.
Basically all of the good quests were made over 15 years ago when the game was made and owned by different people. OSRS is just the corpse of a good game puppeteered by the absolute worst of the modern MMO genre.
>pvp was a lobster eating competition up until one of the two participants fled the wildy
The wildnerness was always a poor man's frontier
OSRS literally has a fricking shortcut to the game's wiki built into its game UI
i've played runescape since 2005 and it was always a number go up autism game with some socialization (at the time) and some cool quests
It always had numbers, but it was never a number go up autism game. The Gower Brothers found it inconceivable that any player would achieve just a single 99, it never even crossed their minds. The socialization and world building was always the point.
I play MMO's like the top pic. I avoid wikis like the plague. Probably why I enjoy it until I reach max level then I move on because all MMO's now are raid or quit and raids are shit.
>DONT do auction houses/automated trading garbage
>DONT do "reroll for 0.00001% quality equipment!" mechanics
>DONT do timegates
>DONT do chat/action censoring unless its flooding
>DONT allow automated trade/chat bots
>DO good quests (runescape)
>DO good gameplay especially combat (warframe)
>DO meaningful endgame farming
>DO gatekeeping
>DO trading systems with item limits per trade (encourages smart item:value ratio usage in trading, otherwise be ready to chance getting scammed)
>DO rare item equipment drops rather than rare item prefixes
>DONT do timegates
One of my favorite memories of DAoC was sitting on the pad waiting on gothi to port into enemy realms. Then there was always that one guy that forget his neck
Make the core gameplay fun both before and after it is optimized.
Unfortunately, this is incredibly difficult and subjective.
there's no going back. the internet killed WoW and mmo's in general.
>b-bbut my thottbott existed back then!
Like 6 people knew about it. Everyone else was keyboard turning and farming clams.
wow was never good and wow killed mmos
t. Groundskeeper Willie
The solution is don't play MMOs if that's what you want. There's no way an MMO can keep up with player consumption which is why IF an MMO attempts to offer story and exploration it will be padded out to the nth degree.
What mmos have lost most is the communication and comfiness of it. You don't meet people to form teams or guilds, you just click a button and are assigned to one. Does anyone talk in the group? No, they're just trying to run through the dungeon ASAP.
Want to join a guild? Search one and apply, never meet a member and form a connection. Does anyone talk in the guild? Probably not unless they're raiding so unless you're also raiding then the chat might as well not exist.
Every mmo is a massive single player experience now where other players might as well be NPCs, they all feel like .hack.
Me in the back but I'm invisible.
Some devs don't realize how important server communities are. "phasing" to other servers instantly just fricks everything up
You are so based!
You are not like the other boys, I can tell.
I too like to lay claim to random landmarks. In the New World beta my character was a swamp hermit who owned a monopoly on all of the oil shale deposits in the area (a scarce resource that people required a lot of and it was only available in that area). Whenever I saw someone trying to mine oil shale I would lure mobs over to interrupt them and then mine it for myself. The experience was greatly enhanced by the presence of VOIP.
>Is there a solution to this problem?
No. The longer you spend in a digital world the more its luster wears thin.
Doubly so for genres where there isn't much differentiating between games other than the coat of paint like WoW era MMOs.
It's literally a result of gaining knowledge about the game and its systems, which you won't be able to avoid doing unless you're a half functional moron.
>what does this blue bar do?
surely no one was ever this moronic
no, millennials and zoomer just want to quickly play through a game and finish it as soon as possible
no thinking required, just follow instructions and get participation trophy, anything else can be covered by their favorite youtuber or fandom in a video
>he is still using a mage
>he is STILL getting hit
lol, lmao even
>Game has to be completely new
>No data mining of any kind, going in completely blind
there you go thats "how you used to play mmorpgs"
It's the absolute worst to play with friends who behave like the bottom panel while you're still top panel. Not an MMO but Diablo is great when you just give yourself to the world instead of being autistic.
>It's the absolute worst to play with friends who behave like the bottom panel while you're still top panel.
Amen
Bring it closer to DnD.
The problem is all the filler. Most quests are boring filler but can be done fast. While long quest that chain will often not be worth their reward. This needs to be balanced.
Example in WoW its quicker to level to just do the get rid of X number of Y. Meanwhile Duskwood had a 13 part quest chain with a great story across three zones that even got referenced in a later expansion dungeon if you went off the rails exploring. But it gave jack frick all, took lots of travel time, and didn't even give much xp.
They also revolve around the top end players that burn through content quickly so instead of the journey its a non-stop focus on getting to the end. This is not the point of the RPG part of the MMORPG. This was because dickheads from EQ were given the keys to WoW and everything after copied that. So old content is constantly rendered worthless to keep the wheel going.
GW2 actually had a good system there for scaling so people could play together but it just did so much else poorly.
A level shouldn't be just a woosh, it should be a big damn deal of getting new power.
tl;dr;
Long interesting quests need reward that are worth it, slow pace focused on doing things instead of loot pinata, loot that counts, levels that count, rewards for working with others. Its a less is more thing. They are their best when you are adventuring somewhere interesting and at their worst when its just a grind to chase the last .2% of the content.
>Is there a solution to this problem?
I've thought about it a lot and I think there are ways to limit disillusionment through game design, but at some point the players have to put in some of the work. I was really lucky to have played my first MMO with a group of other noobs that were willing to play blind, we learned the dungeons ourselves, figured out our own farming routes, made our own builds. If you're willing to play games the way they're meant to be played you can still have an amazing time with them.
>Game has an auction house
>Game has towers with nothing in them
>Game has pvp ganking
Those are just intentional self-sabotage. Takes no effort to simply not put obvious known flaws in your game on purpose.
>Game has kill 15 mobs quests
>Game has combat reducible to a single macro
These require competency to solve, you have to make the game not bad, which some developers might not be capable of doing.
Random generated enemies and loot spawn
solved
You didn't say it needed to be fun
Yes, play less videogames and especially not MMORPGs
Double monitors, smartphones.
If you had to focus entirely on the game (no looking over at your second monitor during downtime or your phone), you'd have little else to do but talk to your fellow players. That's how it used to work. Unfortunately there's no solution for this.
3rd party communication programs too. No one talks in-game anymore because everyone's on Discord. Join a guild and that shit's dead with just a Discord link in the MOTD, then you join it and 2/3rds of the people are playing a different game.
Games are meant to be won, winning incentivizes people looking for the most efficient ways to win.
Everquest.
Project 1999.
Come join us dying boomers collect pixels.
I tried the Red server when it first came out. I had fun fricking around but could only take a few hours of huddling around the same group of mob spawns farming exp
Stop using guides
I still play every game like the top image
MMO players are beyond saving. They b***h about metas and the game wasting their time, then at the same time do everything they can to power through the game, usually with the excuse that they "need to do it to keep up with other players" when they're almost always playing solo in non-competitive content. Then to top it all off they b***h about how it's not as magical as their first time playing.
MMO regulars truly are some of the most mentally damaged amoebas on the face of the earth
I only play singleplayer games.
I never replay linear games.
I never look up wikis(unless I'm hopelessly stuck(which doesn't happen).
I never watch streams or youtube videos about the game before playing it.
I only engage with the *fandom* if I'm already beaten the game.
I'm always immersed.
I'm having fun.
It's that simple, bros.
As has been said many times before most players cannot help themselves but to optimize the fun and mystery out of everything. This age of knowledge we're in has just exacerbated the issue with data mining being extremely prevalent that it's essentially the norm. People don't like to be surprised anymore, they don't want to invest the effort into learning something organically. They want to be told by "smarter people" how to approach things.
Eh I used to read strategy guides a shit ton when I was a kid because I wanted to learn more. and I bought gameshark/action replay. Same principal
Sure strategy guides existed but it's not quite to the same degree. A lot of the bad ones could be inaccurate and not every person playing will own one. A lot of information is free these days so more people tend to look up info.
>A lot of information is free these days so more people tend to look up info.
Kind of my point, I had to go to the library to look shit up on the computer, and I did plenty times for just about every game I was into. Whether it was for codes or secrets. If I had my own computer/internet when I was a kid I would have done the same people are doing now.
There is no viable solution. The only solution is to have a population small enough to have the game be shrouded in mystery, with no easily-accessible information. This also means the game is dying, dead, or is constantly on the verge of such.
This used to be easier to achieve, since the size required for a game to have easily-accessible information was much higher. But the prominence of wikis, subreddits, and youtube videos has changed the landscape.
The solution is to touch grass and expand your consciousness in other ways, you already got all the juice you can out of screens and fantasies, try mushrooms or cooking or working out instead
I don't need to do drugs I just live vicariously through DMT stories from /x/
What we need is to encourage players to not share everything they find publicly. If information was seen as valuable and had an in-game advantage, everyone would shut the frick up. I'd love to see people hype up certain build in an online game while making a counter to that build, or hyping up a build that SOUNDS powerful but is based on misleading or outright wrong info so the whole thing falls apart.
Something like that happened in Maplestory 2. Before the English version came out, some EN players VPN'd into the Korean version and tried to be competitive, but got BTFO. Then the English version comes out and these same people try to control the game. In one instance they got GMs to stop appearing in-game and interacting with players because they threw a shitfit over one silly event they did that skewed the leaderboards during the closed beta of the game, where all progress would've been wiped anyway. The game ran for a little while before raids came out, and during that time people were gearing up. Raids came and people with the best gear possible were still getting mogged in the DPS category by these players who had been playing the Korean version. Turns out that pets in that game give you a hidden flat bonus to your DPS, with the amount being dependent on the pet's rarity and level. Pets were seemingly inconsequential so up until that point no one but those who had played the Korean version had known to farm for max rarity pets.
immerse yourself in the game
Play Minecraft/VintageStory
>been playing wow with some bros ever since 2012
>cycles of it being boring, dropping it for years then coming back
>recently start playing turtle-wow and ironically RP, read all the quest text ect
>actually quite enjoyable
RP chads, how I wish I saw the light earlier...
Solution is what warframe did a long time ago.
>all levels are random tilesets
>sometimes with hidden caches sometimes without
>gear and character separate but compatible for fun builds
>enhancements allow for different specs
>enhancements rarely game defining
>gear is more about style, output depends on enhancements
>use rock paper scissors mechanics for damage
I could go on.
Obviously they made it a farm fest but back in the first few years it wasn't that bad and a lot of info was sparse
The combat system in that game is definitely one of the very few things they got right. Though there was still a meta around how to mod your weapons. With so few mod slots there's no space for using any of the more niche mods.
just limit the amount of offensive mods so you're forced to use niche mods. gets rid of power creep and makes the game more fun. also add ability cooldowns so you can't abuse op frames
Spoken like a true DE bootlicker
>"People aren't happy? Nerf everything!"
the core state of the game is broken, so no matter if you nerf a few weapons or a frame there'll always be other op stuff to exploit. you need to redo the entire game, bring it back to a state like when the game released, when the game was challenging and you actually had to aim, shoot and move around to not die. now it's just a "press [insert one button here] to win" boring ass grinder. i don't mind grinding as long as i'm playing good gameplay while grinding, and it's just not the case in current warframe
Yeah, I don't think there's anything they can do at this point to turn things around. Steve was mulling over Damage 3.0 for years but I bet that still hasn't happened yet. If you're not a new player experiencing the combat and the movement for the first time, the most fun you can have is by figuring out how to exploit the game, breaking out of the map and shit.
>the most fun you can have is by figuring out how to exploit the game
this, it was a lot of fun getting there but once i figured it all out it got boring real quick. saryn + sobek is by far the most op build i made without copying some build from some site, but then as i was playing i realized the only reason i had left for playing is fashionframe and i didn't care all that much about that. will post pics if you ask tho
You sound like you want to. Vauban was always my favorite. He was a king when CC was still the meta, and he never suffered from a nerf in my entire time playing the game. Even when they reworked him he was still the best CC frame in the game, and on top of that they gave him a good damage ability AND utility buffs like movement speed and weapon damage? I had it all to myself too, because no one wanted to bother doing the uncommon alerts for his parts AND all of his prime parts are rares. I had it pretty good all things considered.
the first two on the left are both saryn, but i can't decide for the life of me which looks better. when lavos came out i loved the concept so much, i always wanted and occult-y alchemy frame, too bad he's kinda boring and tedious to play. valkyr and inaros were my two mains until i figured out saryn, the furis with the lifesteal mod also carried me through the early game
MMOs need to be redesigned. I think a lot of it will be removing the numbers we see on screen. Just give people an idea of "this person is stronger/weaker than me, by a little/lot." That can even be with something simple, like a color behind a nameplate (or border around the character.)
And MMO worlds suck. We have to make them interesting without players, and then let the players join.
Vetical progression has always been the issue with MMO's. The second you gate a reward being a time/content investment you're going to invite the autists who either turbogrind it or minmax to find the most efficient route. Remember how assmad people were when FFXIV 1.0 had a limit to how many missions a character could do in a day? I don't really know how to get around this without having a great core gameplay loop that would keep people coming back without an artificial reward.
Unironically the problem is there are too many videogames now and I'm fricking old and don't have time or energy to explore.
I'm content with mastering gameplay and mechanics which is an exploration in itself but literal world exploration and immersion I don't have time to.
I still have the top going on with Final Fantasy XIV. Probably because I just play it as a Final Fantasy game first and foremost.
Unless you make an AI that creates new random worlds every few years you can't.
Blame the internet. There's too much content available. A bajillion games come out every day. One of the guys who worked on Pokemon, or maybe just someone like Miyamoto, said something about how people have too many games they wanna play nowadays and he was right. The average user was much younger back then too, so not only were there less decent games coming out for them to split their attention on, they didn't have as much access to them since a lot of them were kids. Nowadays some people feel like they gotta rush through the content before they miss out on the next flavor of the moss.
A lot of games are also too popular for their own good, and always have a small population of dedicated autists that will find and figure out everything there is to know about a game and dump it all on a wiki.
Elden Ring and Genshin made me feel like the top picture for the first time in a while.