What system should i pick for a comfy / trashy isekai-inspired game for me + 3 other weebs?
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Isekai style RPGs
What system should i pick for a comfy / trashy isekai-inspired game for me + 3 other weebs?
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D&D 5e
Fricking moronic. Go swallow your dice until you choke.
Sword World.
Unironically DnD 5e. A shitty game for a shitty premise.
it depends anon, do you want "shit has consequences" type of trash or "everything is absolute meaningless"? gurps for the former, low or high fantasy, both work, sword world for the latter.
It all hangs if you want a single belly knife stabbing to de facto cripple and potentially kill someone over a couple days or weeks while being treated, or to chug continent destroying maceblows to the face for days.
I feel like the isekai experience is having your characters be glass cannons who like your average RL joe can be disabled fairly easily, but have disproportionately powerful abilities for their shitty stats. Guys like Shield Hero or that phone kid who are useless without their gimmicks but with them can school on a party of conventional adventuerers solo.
well anon, you sure gonna have fun with gurps then, see you over there
OVA for sure
BESM 2e if you aren't zoomers (it isn't better, it just requires different attitude)
However, the best isekai'd campaign into a trashy anime was in GURPS, and nobody expected that it's going to be both isekai nor that it's going to work out so well
Pick a setting and tech level first.
Assuming you're doing fantasy DO NOT pick DnD. It's abysmal for players thinking outside their assigned classes, which is exactly what you should expect isekai'd PCs to do. Only if you're going to run it as 'game' isekai DnD or Pathfinder might work because you can justify completely arbitary rules in the world.
Of course you could just pick a system exactly for that and have everyone gawking at the PCs breaking cosmic rules like wearing the wrong kind of armor, breeding monsters to slay for xp or using highschool economics to generate massive piles of money.
I take it back you definitely should run DnD 5e and just let the players ignore non-physical restrictions like race, class or alignment. Let them go completely wild and make the rulebook their personal b***h. Just make sure to familiarize yourself with tough enough monsters or gods to throw at them.
I think D&D could still work if you explicitly didn't give the isekaied characters player classes. They're not fighters or wizards, they're tools used by some powerful entity in order to achieve a goal given specific abilities to accomplish that task. First order of business is using whatever OP shit they're granted to claw together a small arsenal of magic items to make up for having NPC-tier stats.
5e's class system barely works as is and the rest of the system is precariously built around certain assumptions about player power and ability options. Stripping out class features from a player character will leave you with a gimped pile of nothing scrambling for whatever scrap of advantage it can get, since it has no skill, weapon, or armor proficiencies, which means no prof. bonus.
Nearly anything but D&D or D&D adjacent games would work better. MAID RPG would be a better choice.
An isekai'd character would not be obeying DnD universe internal logic, so nothing would stop them from casting whatever spell they can read from a scroll while wearing whatever armor they wanted. Doing x-number of things between rests would also mean nothing to them, so on, so on.
Sure they would die if someone stuck a sword in their chest instead of suffering 1d8 damage, but with a few clever choices they can be really OP
>An isekai'd character would not be obeying DnD universe internal logic
Why would that be the case ?
That makes no sense whatsoever. 5e is a terrible idea on its own, but what you're suggesting is utter nonsense that won't fricking work with D&D and would be served better by any generic system.
Die: The RPG.
Generic system of your preferred crunch level, since you can just create contemporary PCs and throw them in whatever fantasy world you like.
On this note lately I've felt that Genesys would be good to try and emulate those Isekai with RPG-like systems, since it's structured with archetypes, careers and talent trees
>since it's structured with archetypes, careers and talent trees
how does this make it better at isekai than other generic systems?
Archetypes are just races, careers are classes light and talent trees are an optional rule for, well, talent trees.
It's like saying DnD is good for isekai since it has races, classes and feats.
Not saying that Genesys doesn't lend itself to the genre, I just don't get the point you're trying to make.
There's a Kickstarter for an isekai themed game. Can't remember the title but the races are things like Human and Human (neckbeard).
I think you are talking about a game called brink or its fabula ultima.
>I think you are talking about a game called brink
Close; google was able to guess what I was looking for:
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/576526373/break-a-trpg-inspired-by-classic-videogames-and-anime
It's actually called "Break".
DnD 5e def
Konosuba has its own RPG out in English now. There is also BESM 4e you could look into.
DnD 5e not memeing here.
>comfy
If you're DMing the responsibility to ensure maximum comfy is on you, anon.
Here anon, I've actually got a perfect premise for your isekai game.
>party is a bunch of out of shape nerds; neckbeards, fedora reddit atheists and shit
>After another day of getting bullied for being fricking morons this group of losers meets up and heads to the local hangout of their choosing
>on their way they get hit by a semi that's lost control whilst crossing an intersectin
>fade to black, party wakes up
>first thing to hit them is the smell
>that god awful smell
>party wakes up and realize they are in a land of shit. Literal feces.
>the landscape is made up of endless fields of shit, hills and mounds dotting the landscape
>they venture forth, end up in a shanty town constructed from trash
>Meet some npcs, one gives them a job to do whatever the frick, it doesn't matter so long as it leads to combat
>combat is against people similar to the party members, autistic social outcasts
>as everyone in this setting is horribly out of shape no actual combat occurs, it winds up developing into arguing, screaming and rage until one side gets fed up and fricks off
>party journeys through this land of shit trying to find a way home
It's an allegory for the isekai genre as a whole.
I've never read or watched any isekai but it seems like a cute idea for a story. Why do you hate the concept?
Ganker told him to
>Why do you hate the concept?
NTA, but it's not really the barebones concept that most people hate (ask out of the blue any Isekai hater their opinion on Alice in Wonderland or A Yankee in King Arthur's Court, and it's not all that often you find hate)
It's more the content that gets put out and the type of people that like it. Too much Isekai is Naro Isekai, which basicly means that it's the same type of stories you'd read off some newbie on AO3 or Wattpad. But unlike those these people pretty often have a chance of getting their work adapted and flooding markets outside Webnovels.
Naru Isekai is too often the most creatively bankrupt drivel, here to give the most barebones of power fantasy to NEET losers or overworked salary men (which is also why so many of the protagonists of them are one of those two)
> it's because of the people that like it
Ah, so your mental illness is the cause. Gotcha.
People who like 80% of Isekai have awful taste and refuse to accept that they like garbage. As said, Isekai is made for either Loser NEETS or Overworked Salerymen. And considering the likelihood of who you're going to run in here about discussions on Isekai, it is no surprised it's hated.
Isekai is appreciated by all sorts of people. That's the reason why it has being seeing consistent success for years now. Your kind might repeat the cliche of it being creatively bankrupt, but in reality, Isekai is a bank of creativity, where movies, anime and manga come to borrow.
You justify your hatred with asociations when you are odious. If more people thought like you do, you would sabotage every position you champion.
You are right that there is no surprise with isekai's status, but the vocal hatred for it is but a small part of it. Isekai and light novels has grown into one of the most successful japanese pop cultures in the world.
> "Hey, can you recommend a system for Isekai."
>" Yeah just play a loser and travel a world where everything is feces. That's an allegory for the genre as a whole by the way, hehe!"
...
> "It''s hated because of people that defend it."
>Isekai is for loser NEETS or overworked salarymen
So badically the entirety of male population with the exception of pampered kids of CEOs?
You forgot normal kids in school, anon. The idea that the teens in school don't watch isekai is dumb, though, so I can see why you didn't entertain it.
>People who like 80% of Isekai have awful taste and refuse to accept that they like garbage.
I've never met someone who watches isekai that doesn't openly accept that. Nobody tries to defend isekai as high quality entertainment, even OP calls it trashy.
Isekai is not only high quality entertainment, it is also Literature's prerequisite.
Much like how people would have learned to write by writing short stories and closely studying the western cannon, new writers must now study the modern cannon, where Isekai reigns. Writing Isekai has become so essential to a writer's development, that any writer who neglects this foundation cannot possibly write fiction of any worth.
It is tempting, I know, to delude yourself into believing that you already know enough, and that you do not need to write or study Isekai, but please, for the love of beauty, remember the words of Johann Wolfgang von Goethe.
"Taste can be trained only by reflecting not on what was reasonably good, but on what was truly great. For that reason I shall show you only the best works; and when you are well versed in them, you can evaluate all others without over-estimating them."
Reminded me one russian self-publishing literature platform unironically consisting of isekai trash, fantasy, USSR wankery and pornography.
> unironically
Naturally. Irony, like sarcasm, is the midwit's substitute for wit.
The best fact about Goethe is that he was forever butthurt about the fact that he was the most beloved YA author of his period.
>People who like 80% of Isekai have awful taste and refuse to accept that they like garbage.
Sauce on your statistic?
>People who like 80% of Isekai have awful taste and refuse to accept that they like garbage
then they should be right at home here considering the hobbies and interests we partake in this board
>Naro Isekai
Narou Isekai is great, though. You just have to understand the niche it fills (power fantasies for overworked businesspeople and NEETs) and enjoy it for what it is.
After that point, you can start really enjoying the shows and identify the gems.
Getting back on topic for /tg/, it's a poor basis for a TTRPG, because isekai don't focus as much on character growth or experience and instead focus more on crazy shenanigans by someone who's already OP.
>Getting back on topic for /tg/, it's a poor basis for a TTRPG, because isekai don't focus as much on character growth or experience and instead focus more on crazy shenanigans by someone who's already OP.
Just play a wizard.
Wizards are great for power tripping, but they're a bit lacking in cool factor compared to chuuni martials who are actually just wizards
There is a contrarian hatred for isekai much like there is a contrarian hatred for 5e. It is popular, so hating it allows you to pretend like you are better than most people.
2014-20 was a literal flood of isekai, and by 2018 and onward, it reached critical levels of how stencil-based they've became. It is now sloooowly decreasing, but it created both the oversaturation along with feeling that there is nothing else released, on top of the simple fact vast majority of those were simply bad anime.
So nothing wrong with isekai itself, but even mentioning it is irritating a lot of scars from past decade
>I hate it because it was so popular
K
it was (still is? idk) then go-to genre for a piece of shit low effort anime for quite some time
now you might argue that there are always going to be dogshit anime getting made regardless of which genre is currently popular. and you might also point out that there are a few entries in the genre, broadly defined, that are at least okay. and you'd be right, but the association is hard to stamp out
y tho
NTA. Don't hate the concept but it has a problem of inbreeding. What sells is cool op dude goes to another world and gets magic bullshit or a super cool ability that makes steaks meaningless, he gets a harem of girls who encompass viewers fetishes and possibly one has a character but all of them want to bang the MC. The evil person is generic and evil and the series ends with no real struggle.
(Master of Ragnarock, Smartphone isekai, how not to summon a demon lord, isekai cheat magician, etc.)
This is most isekai and further most "parodies" or "injokes" in the stories boil down to lamp shading on doing a trope. Like one I remember (pic related) had a hot springs episode where the tsundere gets flustered and the MC says "wow if this were an isekai I would get hit!" then gets hit. but it's played as if it's subversive. Hundreds of light novels and dozens of anime follow the tropes because it's successful but they don't use the genera in a creative way. while those definitely exist it is the vast minority. 5 years ago it was really bad in the seasonal department and while it has subsided somewhat there is still quite a few that come each season and get forgotten.
1/2
2/2
That being said I think there is a ton of potential taking someone from our world and putting them in a fantasy. jobless reincarnation is great as it focuses on a loser given a second chance to make something of himself and be better in another world, he studies and trains to become competent with only a bit of guidance. Tanya the evil is a more gritty alt history isekai with the premise of an atheist man reincarnated as a young girl that has to pray to god for power.
(Overlord, Re:Zero, and Konosuba are all notable for what they do and utilize the premise well)
I think it's a concept that could work in TTRPGS, taking the premise that the PCs are put in an unfamiliar and hostile world. But the baggage of power fantasy isekai puts a sour taste and aversion to the concept as a whole. Even if the concept far predates them and good wells to tap are out there if you dig.
As someone who enjoys reading shitty isekai and power fantasy style books, a lot of people presume it'd be more difficult to pull off than it really would be, when really by how most modern day ttrpgs work such overpowered butthole protagonists really wouldn't stand out. Stuff like:
>MC is a unique existence because of their species/special talent/untapped potential for limitless growth
In other words, the average player character, because even plain old human fighters in D&D going up to level 20 are insanely powerful compared to the average schmuck
>MC is able to think laterally around situations because they either have a value system different from the natives or have outside knowledge on how to improve things
In other words, the average player in real life
>MC has autistic levels of optimization dedicated to their specific talents that they ruthlessly exploit the shit out of to make them into near if not outright gods of the setting
In other words, the average power gamer
Frankly, about the only thing that isn't something the average ttrpg player is granted in the same way an isekai protag is would be their supernatural charisma to charm the pants off of everyone they meet, but even then that's usually just because of the DM. People I think would be totally fine with the idea of an isekai game, where you're basically sent down the rabbit hole with powers or abilities that you have to figure out as you go along while avoiding starvation and predation from terrifying monsters. They just hate the shitty written power fantasies, aka the ones where the main character takes to their new surge in strength like a fish to water instead of struggling with it.
Me personally, I'd try to make a beer and pretzel style game with it. Give each player one particular talent or power and just watch as everyone starts stretching the concept of their powers to their most absurd, like healing magic letting you shoot cancer lasers at people.
> It's an allegory for the isekai genre as a whole
It reads like a satirical representation of a hater's deranged, scatological mind. If you were a character in a book, the reader would assume you were the i-am-silly strawman.
Why do you hate the Wizard of Oz and John Carter of Mars so much?
>>the landscape is made up of endless fields of shit, hills and mounds dotting the landscape
So they're in Giantstep?
Seconding OVA
Ignore the subhumans suggesting 5e, because it clearly doesn't work for isekai.
DnD 4e, so you can have you're dudes reflavor you spells and abilities to be whatever way you like
Fabula Ultimate or BREAK!! would both be good systems for an isekai game. One of the races in BREAK!! is literally "person from the real world who got isekai'ed into the setting."
That concept reminded of the old stranded in fantasy fic, not very anime but follows the general concept of a bunch of people being isekai into an AD&D world and slowly figuring out their powers and aquiring class levels
Isekai (another world) is the "fish out of water" story to an extream.
What is more like that then making a character for one system but then using that for another (with translation of couse).
as an example: Start with a call of cthulhu season zero.
And then swtich to DnD 5e (unironically becouse its a simple system) when the real game start.
Yes you have to prepeare some system to system translation but its a shock like true isekai heros entcounter.
Bonus points if the player don't know what they are and have to discover their stats class and even there race like its some kind of dnd bingo.
The true question is: Do your players want a classic fantasystory or the true isekai frick up and what systems have you and your players already played?
>And then swtich to DnD 5e (unironically becouse its a simple system) when the real game start.
Terrible idea.
>Terrible idea.
And?
will you follow up your one liner with an explanation?
>Hehe. gaslight your players to just play 5e
Nta, How the FRICK this needs any sort of explanation as a bad idea, you dense motherfricker?
first: come down... we talking not about world politics but about a system of rules to play makebelieve.
second: I only played 4 systems so far:
Das schwarze Auge
Maid RPG as a DM
Warhammer fantasy as a Player
Warhammer 40k Rogue trader as a player and DM
Call of Cthulhu as a player
and of couse Dungeons & Dragons 5e also as a player.
In my view DnD is not as detailed as others but becouse of that way simpler in flow.
Third:
Noone but you came up to gaslight people to play DnD. If you dont like DnD so much why dont you explain when and where it hurt you? Not everyone had a bad DM like you that was unable to cater to your fantasys.
>as a DM
There is only one game that has "DMs", you dumb homosexual
And your supposed lack of experience or exposure (which can be genuine, just for different reasons than you are claiming) is not an excuse to do stupid shit.
>DnD
>way simpler to flow
Ask me how I know your claim about playing Maid RPG, WFRP and CoC is false. The only game where this argument is true is DSA, which is autistic ADD 2e clone made by and for autistic Germs, so no shit 5e is going to play easier.
>Noone but you came up to gaslight people to play DnD.
>And then swtich to DnD 5e (unironically becouse its a simple system)
What is more like that then making a character for one system but then using that for another (with translation of couse).
as an example: Start with a call of cthulhu season zero.
And then swtich to DnD 5e (unironically becouse its a simple system) when the real game start.
Yes you have to prepeare some system to system translation but its a shock like true isekai heros entcounter.
Bonus points if the player don't know what they are and have to discover their stats class and even there race like its some kind of dnd bingo.
The true question is: Do your players want a classic fantasystory or the true isekai frick up and what systems have you and your players already played?
Drink bleach and die, you disingenuous, lying piece of filth
>I have no argument so i muss insult
Hey come down bro
I know nothing about you or your problems but because the way you talk you, i really don't feel the need to change my opinion about anything.
Want to try again explaining to me why DnD is so bad and maybe even what system is better without bursting into flames?
>Want to try again explaining to me why DnD is so bad and maybe even what system is better without bursting into flames?
NTA, but the surprise systems/story swap was a bad idea from the start. Players will drop a campaign on a slight miscommunication on expectations, complete bait and switch is going to make it almost guaranteed.
You could sort of get away with having the players still make characters in a different system, with the understanding that they're going to be moved to another system, and then keep which one there translating to a secret.
But really, I well informed table is standard. You don't want to have the situation of having to explain each rule to the group mid game because you dropped an unfamiliar system; or have to delay the by another week to let them translate, weakening the surprise to the point of questioning why you did it in the first place.
Thank you for an answer that can be understood outside of an institution.
Now let me point out something:
I said:
>as an example:
meaning its an idea that not need to be followed 1 to 1.
I find it the better way to give the players the correct illusion that they aren't sir knight&Co but just John Dude the used office worker AND THEN later becouse for whatever reason are traped in another world (like in the animes).
If this is to much work for the master and to much to ask from the players to begin with then why even try to make an isekai? Just go straight for a simple fantasy in whatever system all involved are familiar with.
I also point out the following: Play with people you have fun with, a system everyone understands. In my case is DnD and CoC at the moment.
You may dont like it but you arnt part of my group so why do you care?
>Want to try again explaining to me why DnD is so bad and maybe even what system is better without bursting into flames?
So you tell everyone to show up and make CoC characters, everyone expects to play CoC... and partway through the session, you pull out the D&D books and say "NOW MAKE YOUR CHARACTERS AGAIN!" in a system that does not mesh with CoC and does not port over the majority of their abilities, so they can play the brainless redditor "kill stuff and take its loot" skirmish game, which has pisspoor-to-nonexistent rules for doing anything that isn't explicitly fighting and killing stuff, and even those rules suck shit, combat is boring and tedious, and all you've really accomplished is the most elaborate and obnoxious way to start a mediocre D&D game.
Your opinion on DnD is appreciated, but it's not my problem, you had a bad experience with it.
Its also the most opposite system clash i come up with.
Like i explained here
its all about playing with expectations and is most importantly my best (but mostly not perfect) idea how to emulate an isekai.
And of couse you talk to your player duh.
Ask them what they want to play and what system they know/like.
Let them agree on what system is to use but use another system (or just a survey) to find out there initial situation. Its a lot of more work then the normal creation but a think i think is important to uphold the isekai illusion. Else its just fantasy with extra steps.
>Want to try again explaining to me why DnD is so bad
>Your opinion on DnD is appreciated, but it's not my problem, you had a bad experience with it.
D&D players have brain damage and you're clearly no different.
I know you said earlyer that
>...so they can play the brainless redditor "kill stuff and take its loot" skirmish game, which has pisspoor-to-nonexistent rules for doing anything that isn't explicitly fighting and killing stuff, and even those rules suck shit, combat is boring and tedious, and all you've really accomplished is the most elaborate and obnoxious way to start a mediocre D&D game.
and in the way you share this information tells me you had a bad group or oh shock... never played it in the first place and hate it becouse its hip to hate.
I find this combat focused rules okey-ish. Yeah there is better ways to do stuff but its also a good base.
Want to rollplay? DnD dont put hard bolders in your way becouse the rulesystem is combat focused.
Want to fight? Rules are not perfect but solong you dont fight 10+ enemys with 4 players and there summons its ok-ish.
I agree it's not the best but until you pffer some alternatives i will (or have to) stick to my friends decision to use DnD for our "pisspoor" and "brainless raditor "kill stuff and take its loot" skirmish game." or what ever.
Read your own post again, moron.
D&D is a bad system and group matters more than system. Play a good system with a good group instead of settling for a bullshit system because you can't conceive of playing anything but D&D and think that's everyone else's problem to solve for you.
>Play a good system with a good group instead
Oh wow... you know a good system that is better then DnD?
Can you tell me what system you talking about and why is better then others systems out there?
Funny i feel like i asked this 3 posts ago but never mind... maybe this time my question will be answerd... right?
Play OVA, Ryutama, GURPS, TBZ, Sword World, ICC, BRP, WHFRP, Unknown Armies, Savage Worlds, Shadows of Esteren, Burning Wheel, Rune Quest, Chronicles of Darkness or 13th Age, ACKS, and Fantasy Craft if you truly can't give up d20 mechanics. If you're enough of a homosexual, I'm sure there's a dozen PbtA and FitD games styled after isekai anime and manga.
Good Lord, you homosexuals are so fricking defensive about wanting to use D&D for everything, then you crumple and admit it sucks shit, and then you go
>BUT I BET YOU DON'T HAVE ANY BETTER GAMES HUH?! HUUUH?!
Treat your brainrot, you worthless WotC paypig.
Nice list of random systems...
What did you play and why should I play it too?
See: no insult, no random accusations no miss quotes. Just a simple question.
And bevor you lose your hat again.
I am currently more a fan of Call of Cthulhu and only play DnD becouse my friendgroup are currently playing it. We may change back to CoC or do something completely different.
Time will tell...
By the way; its now your chance to win me over to what ever madness you seen to be so crasy about.
Give me your best shot without insults or any rant about how much you hate (or secretly love) DnD and you maybe... just maybe... won me over and win free internet or what ever you try to achive here.
NTA but you type like a colossal gay.
Whatever helps you not hating yourself.
Anime 5e as well
>a comfy / trashy isekai-inspired game
This is an interesting thought, actually. The comfiness and trashiness you're referring to both inherently spring from the nature of your average trashy isekai light novel as an escapist power fantasy. The typical conventions and plot devices of the genre are something that are fairly rules agnostic and could be done with just about any system, so what you're actually looking for system-wise is a ruleset that lets the players feel like they're playing superhumanly competent and capable people while still being able to provide them with meaningful challenges.
I don't have anything to suggest on that front, but good luck. Also, ignore anyone who suggests 5e D&D to you. The entire concept of 'bounded accuracy' that 5e's math is built around is completely antithetical to the type of game you're looking for.
GSS and anything by Ewen Cluney basically
Fate or GURPS. There is no inbetween.
OVA is practically the bastard child of FATE and GURPS, so there is an in-between.
As suggested in the thread multiple times, unironically D&D 5e. Only with house rules for switching class abilities, skills, feats, spells, whatever in some internally consistent way.
Unironically go choke on your dice.
>Just homebrew an entire modified ruleset for D&D!
We've been doing this shit for decades and it has never, ever been good advice, nor worth the effort.
You have to realy come down with your DND PTSD.
If you dont like others having fun with a shitty system you need to not say "You are not allowed to like what i dislike." but "Hey here is a system i like that may or may not fit what ever your seek better. Want to hear it?"
this way do not only look less like a madman but also convered people away from what ever system you currently seen to hate.
Literally Dungeons & Dragons. All the cliches you could hope for and more.
Infinity's Edge is a system meant to emulate the LitRPG genre so it should be easy to make use of it as an Isekai game.
GURPS
>Isekai and or modern day/current Japanese fantasy anime/manga
I think it is an appropriate time to post this one.
MAID RPG.
The main character who gets isekai'd is the Master, the players are his harem of adventure bawds.
>5e and give your players lots of free feats and homebrew stuff. This way, the players will feel the classic "class system" that all the isekais has, but winning some broken stuff that 5e is too coward to give.
>Make the rule of cool reign in all the campaign to give that bullshit deus ex machina of the isekai genre.
>Have fun!
I sort of did this one time.
I was running a Broken Worlds game where ine of the players was a Hunger and got Cut the World (basically teleport with high musfire chance) and rolled a snake eyes when casting. Next session the party spent exploring a hellscape outside reality before being able to cut again, Hunger rolling miserably once more and that campaign died before nect session. Later we got back to our 40k campaign I was also GMing (mishmash of DH, RT, OW, BC) and after a year or so the party psyker rolled the demon-pops-out-of-your-head meme peril, so a masked demon, a stone amgel and Kenshiro come out, the angel pointing out that they are STILL not back in Throne but some other dumb universe.
I hand the players their translated character sheets and after a little scuffle the 40k party decides these guys might be worth not upsetting and could be useful allies, so the next arc was the KSBD characters experiencing religion/culture shocks over 40k setting. Fun times all round.