It sucks that it is hard to talk people into playing rpgs and their adjacent games. How do you talk it up without hyping it up or ruining the story? And if you hype it up, it almost allways falls flat because gamers always expect to just jizz all over the place if a game gets hype, which never happens (I don't know why we're like this, but so many of us are).
Nier is a good example. I tried to get people to play Nier Gestalt before playing Automatia. But that is hard to do without either hyping it up or ruining the story. Nier is even worse in that regard because you have to do like 2 or 3 play throughs to really see what is unique about the game. And who the frick is going to do that blindly?
Most didn't, and just watched summary videos.
God, I die inside just thinking about how many people glossed over Nier Gestalt with summary videos just to jump into automatia.
I hate to sound like a cork sniffing guy up his own ass but Nier 1 actually did some interesting things with the concept of gaming and so many people ruined it for themselves so they could rush into playing with a pretty combat doll. Ugh.
I don't, all you really can do is observe what kind of people like what kind of thing and then recommend something you feel would be something they like, I've recommend numerous things to my family but they hardly like any of it
weeb shit is cringe, pick a non-cringe RPG like Baldur's Gate, ask them if they know about Dungeons & Dragons, talk about how it's like 50 years old, talk about how there were two memorable Baldur's Gate games, and then mention that BG3 came out after decades, and has got fantastic glowing reviews, and you can do pretty much you can think of.
obviously weebs can't process this minutia, so just let other people play not-RPGs.
>pick a non-cringe RPG like Baldur's Gate
You're yet to provide an example of a non-cringe game.
>weeb shit is cringe, pick a non-cringe RPG like Baldur's Gate, ask them if they know about Dungeons & Dragons, talk about how it's like 50 years old, talk about how there were two memorable Baldur's Gate games, and then mention that BG3 came out after decades, and has got fantastic glowing reviews, and you can do pretty much you can think of.
>obviously weebs can't process this minutia, so just let other people play not-RPGs.
western rpgs are even harder to get people to play than jrpgs. At least JRPGS usually have some artwork and music that pops and pulls people in. Most western rpgs are going to sound and look the same until the player installs the game and puts an hour or two in to see what is different and unique about a specific entry.
100% this, there are really only a handful of WRPGs that jump out and say "hey, I'm unique, try me" (pretty much only Fallout and that series has more bad games than good) while you go on any JRPG forum and you'll see people give you endless recs depending on what you want
>want a classic fantasy adventure without anything heavy? dragon quest
>want a gritty, edgy, extremely difficult experience? SMT
>want tight tactical gameplay and medieval politics? fire emblem
while WRPGs have
>uhhh go play skyrim bro it's heckin chungus wholesome 100
or
>bro you HAVE to play this clunky fantasy RPG from the 1990s bro every game past it literally isn't even an RPG
I see the issue, you guys only know JRPGs. Whenever the topic of RPG comes up you immediately think about JRPGs.
It really does help that JRPGs had so much crossover and were inspired by each other.
Aside from that, you had creatives who you could follow, games were spunoff from one another. That really goes a long way to casting out a recommendation, from storys & themes to gameplay systems, there's a lot to sell to someone.
Father fricks
Brother gets fricked [spoiler]and has to be saved by a sourfaced b***h and happy skeleton[/spoiler]
>Spoiler
A big part of the actions of both brother & father that lead to the doomed world are those of the mismanagement of the replicant & gestalt project by the androids.
-but they were working from a flawed, hastily put together system themselves since the world between salty fun time snow in summer was cobbled together with a truly fricked experiment and that spun out of DoD itself. It's a disastrous chain of events but with brother, it comes down to the androids failing to manage the emotions of an ever changing society which honestly was doomed from the start.
It's a matter of perspective and that's what replicant really drives home, everyone was at fault and everyone did something wrong except best boy emil
On gameplay, I will say it's not perfect but it's serviceable as an ARPG. I really enjoy the first games combat but I've played DoD so for me, it's a scale and R/G sits cosily at "good enough".
About the worst thing you can do in the original release is figuring out the block button exists or picking up a certain spear..
>-but they were working from a flawed, hastily put together system themselves since the world between salty fun time snow in summer was cobbled together with a truly fricked experiment and that spun out of DoD itself. It's a disastrous chain of events but with brother, it comes down to the androids failing to manage the emotions of an ever changing society which honestly was doomed from the start.
>It's a matter of perspective and that's what replicant really drives home, everyone was at fault and everyone did something wrong except best boy emil
I understand your interpetation. The exspanded works do point you in that direction that the conditions humanity lives under is just a patchwork of last ditch efforts, gambling, tragedy and horror. Specifically the creation of emil and the books.
But I do not fully agree that you are suppose to see the actions of Pop or Brother as being merciful and ultimately good, ending humanity's suffering. Being able to hear the shades is suppose to be jarring. You're suppose to learn that that Pop's outlook on the world is clouded in ignorance and he is not really a hero, but a murderer. That much of what you, the main character has done, has hurt others. The final action of defeating the shadowlord is suppose to probably be seen as the ulimate evil in a long list of evil deeds, causing suffering and death were ever you go. I don't think the intent was ever for you to walk away from the game thinking your character left things better than he found them. More than you topped off a long list of horrible tragic things.
Though the creative team probably did leave everything vague enough so that people like me and you that played the game and saw the different endings can come to different conclusions and discuss them. That seems to be a very japanese thing to do It is probably diliberate that me and you are dicussing so many years later on if Poppa Nier did the right thing.
>But I do not fully agree that you are suppose to see the actions of Pop or Brother as being merciful and ultimately good
Good thing I didn't say that! 😉
I agree with the rest too.
There's an old thing about route B, an old theory that we should have been playing Kaine instead but due to Cavia's demise and limited budget we got what we got. That could change things up if after we complete route A we take control of the real MC and we are seeing it from her PoV with the shades but ultimately...v1.2 changed that theory because we fire up route B continue our slaughter and it's not until the true end we finally get to play as Kaine.
It still could have been too much work but
>leave everything vague enough so that people like me and you that played the game and saw the different endings can come to different conclusions and discuss them.
>That seems to be a very japanese thing to do It is probably diliberate that me and you are dicussing so many years later on if Poppa Nier did the right thing.
That's what makes NieR's universe special and it's what allows Taro to be called a good writer. He allows you to consider the other characters POV's to put yourself in their shoes and empathise with why they made those terrible decisions. The game wants to ask you philosopical Q's.
-and then on top of that.
>The exspanded works do point you in that direction that the conditions humanity lives under is just a patchwork of last ditch efforts, gambling, tragedy and horror. Specifically the creation of emil and the books.
We see the repeated themes on being doomed to repeat the same mistakes, working off a flawed plan and as N:A ends we're asked the question:
Then...won't that simply lead us to the same conclusion as before?
I cannot deny the possibility
However, the possibility of a different future also exists.
A future is not given to you. It is something you must take for yourself.
Capping us off with the existentialist cycle once more...
>Capping us off with the existentialist cycle once more...
the cycle is also part of the point. The suffering around popa nier is caused by his rampant extreme individualism. While the personal suffering of B2 is caused in part by her giving herself to collectivism, always doing what she is ordered This is seen when it is revealed she has murdered the person she loves 100s of times because of orders which is a direct contrast to the way Papa nier looked at life. 2B starts as someone who would kill the person she loves most for the greater good, while Pops would murder the world for the person he loves most. And in one ending even murder himself for another person he loves.
I might be giving Yoko too much credit but it seems to be more a criticism of extremes and both the western and eastern outlook on the person's place in society and how both ultimately cause suffering.
I say too much credit because Yoko's involvement in how 2 was made was a little haphazard. Combined they make an interesting commentary on the human condition, but perhaps that was just happenstance. There is no way he'd known he was going to get to come back and offer commentary on eastern collectivism later.
>weeb shit is cringe, pick a non-cringe RPG like Baldur's Gate
>homosexual sex with ursine shapeshifter
>non-cringe
do you trip and fall into anus or something, homosexual?
Ever wonder why this board is so shit? No, it's not people who enjoy different things sharing the same board, and it's not that JRPG players are particularly annoying, but for some fricking reason you WRPG gays let JRPGs live rent free in your fricking head. Why are you even on this site if all you do is hate Japanese things? Nothing even against Baldur's Gate at all, it's a fine game but you homosexuals are so insufferable, all you do is sperg out over JRPGs
ironically practice some tolerance
>UHM, STOP BEING MEAN, you need to shut up and be nice when wrpg players stumble into threads about games they've never played and take a big runny shit!!!
frick off moron
Why are you being so dramatic over some anime games? It's kids stuff, who the frick cares, get a grip man
>you shouldn't care about the things that you like!
>shut up and let me shit myself in front of you!!!
frick off moron
>you homosexuals are so insufferable, all you do is sperg out over JRPGs
Now now, anon. That’s not entirely fair. they sperg out about wRPGs too
Nope.
That doesnt fit my agenda of jrpg-ers being a oppressed minority by the wrpgarchy and facing genreism.
>I tried to get people to play Nier Gestalt
Why are you recommending the garbage Westernized version over the modern remaster of the real game? No wonder people think you're a weirdo.
"Dude, you have to play this ugly ass PS3 game with a 50 yo gay bear protagonist to REALLY get into this series"
Just show them Replicant and they'll be much more receptive about it.
>Why are you recommending the garbage Westernized version over the modern remaster of the real game? No wonder people think you're a weirdo.
Anon, how would someone have recommended Replicant in 2016/17 when Replicant ver.1.22474487139 wouldn't get a national release until 2021?
Papa NieR is kino, get bent
>Papa NieR is kino, get bent
wasn't going to say it when I saw dude's post, but yeah. The story actually makes more sense from the POV of a dad than a aloof brother.
I can see a big single dad like that doing anything for his daughter. And a younger man crushing on him for saving him. And someone that masculine and big making a functioning hermaphrodite feel feminine and desired. It makes less sense in the context of a brother. Though we both know the brother version exists because of that sliver of Japanese fans that creep on their sisters
The story is trash and doesn't handle the time skip properly in gestalt.
>and doesn't handle the time skip properly in gestalt.
How so?
That there is none. There's a very clear maturation in Replicant that's missing from gestalt. He stays the same there. But keep dicksucking Microsofts censored 360 version of the game because it's the one you grew up on
I was only asking, no need to get hostile
They're high on their own bullshit, there's really not a lot of difference in how it's handled because they're the same character.
Not sure why they're seething so hard at gestalt.
> There's a very clear maturation in Replicant that's missing from gestalt.
This is babble-
but ultimately father/brother are the same person post timeskip, they do the same things, they have the same love for murder & protection and they both frick up in the same ways.
Pre-timeskip brother is immature and inexperienced due to being a child so that's where people interpret the maturity coming from later. Additional comment on this at the end.
Father pre-timeskip can be just as inexperienced as he's a guy living his life for his daughter doing odd jobs, he's as inexperienced weiling a weapon as brother is.
The implications for post timeskip are the same except father "looks like shit" while with brother the romance sits at the forefront but more so in nu-plicant than real replicant. As for the ending, it's the same for both as well except for a completely subjective angle that fathers anger makes more sense due the difference of losing a child vs losing a sister; HOWEVER.
Brother is the same off the cuff murderous psycho so his actions make sense in context too.
The false elitism thing is weird but I've really only seen it in EOPs and since Automata came out.
Part of it is that brother is the canon protagonist so they feel validated but most of everything we've had post release applies to father too; except for the funny bumhole incident.
Frick you, Father is best protag.
Looks out of place in scenes, is best friends with Kaine now and best of all he adds that revenge element to the ending that just isn't the same with brother, brother lost a bratty little sister, he had a sister complex and got fricked in the ass, he was an edgy moron but father? Father was mad because his daughter died, it's not the same also can you imagine father getting felt up by some queer on the beach? Me either, but you bet those ladies in the bars were crowding round for a piece of that man ass
I mean, he might have fricked Kaine in her ass or pussy with her little lady wiener flopping around. She's conically a functioning herm, not a lady boy or trans. Or maybe they were just buds. Who knows. Its more believable either way with Big Daddy Nier over brother nier though. Kaine probably topped brother nier
I just explain the game mechanics and scenarios you could potentially play through. Either the person will be interested in it or not.
>it is hard to talk people into playing rpgs
Why are you talking to people about video games? They are toys for children. Talk about normal adult subjects like gardening or coffee.
>Talk about normal adult subjects like gardening or coffee.
are you 80? Or the weird nonwhite kid from ed edd and eddy?
>talk people into doing things
Don't do that, unless they ask for your opinion.
>And who the frick is going to do that blindly?
Discovering things yourself is a major part of the enjoyment. No one wants to enjoy things because someone told them to
I think that's OP's point but the trouble is most people these days consider a game over once they see the credits. I actually only found out about the second playthrough frickery on Xbox after having come back to the game an entire month later from beating it the first time simply just to relive my memories only to have my mind completely blown away.
>>And who the frick is going to do that blindly?
>Discovering things yourself is a major part of the enjoyment. No one wants to enjoy things because someone told them to
yeah, but in the case of something like Nier 1 and 2, if you don't speak up and a person just looks at a summary before starting 2, or frick, going blind into 2 and having 2 ruin the plot points of 1, you're missing out.
1 does some legitimately interesting things with gameplay and narrative.
And it is really hard to talk someone into NOT watching a summary without partially ruining what makes Nier 1 good.
Like example, there is a part of the game where you drift out of your self. Like the you that is you is kind of not there anymore. And the game represents this by using something like an old text game And it just does this out of nowhere. The game has lots of weird little things like that
Nier 1 and 2 are at their best when you go in blind, and its hard to convince anyone to play 1 without telling them something because on the surface, the first play through is some run of the mill zelda hack and slash shit.
That spoiler part you're talking about is one of the reasons why so many people recommend skipping straight to Automata, it's just not fun at all for many people. And it happens multiple times in a playthrough. And the game even quizzes you with randomly generated questions to make sure you didn't just button mash through it.
Honestly though, yes, Automata spoils large chunks of Replicant's plot, but it's a vastly better game, like not even close. Replicant has like 5 tiny dungeons that you replay over and over, at least 4 times each. The plot twist, the bad guys you've been fighting are actually innocent, is the same in both games but Automata handles it much better. It's okay to skip to Automata if one is not sure about enjoying this series.
It sounds like you're a super fan of the series, I'm not saying your opinions are wrong, but obviously very biased.
>The plot twist, the bad guys you've been fighting are actually innocent, is the same in both games but Automata handles it much better.
Not really. That revelation is pretty obvious from the start of 2 but hidden in most of 1 for the most part. 1 also has a really dark point to make that I can't remember 2 ever making.
I'm not sure how overt it is with replicant, but daddy nier is a pretty standard jrpg hero. He's hot blooded. Stubborn. He will do anything for the people he loves. He charges into everything without fear. And...he ultimately dooms the human race because of it. He only thinks about himself and the people he loves and trys to solve all his problems without considering the greater impact. Poppa Nier isn't a "good guy." At the end of 1, he is worse than Hitler. In his effort to save the replicant body of his daughter, he undoes the Gestalt program, releasing all the human souls from the earth, causing a mass extinction event. You may want to debate that, but the whole point of the 2+ play throughs and being able to hear the shades is to drive home that Papa Nier's actions make him a monster despite thinking he is doing the right thing. The second game is never so critical of extreme individualism. It is instead is critical of collectivism.
>That spoiler part you're talking about is one of the reasons why so many people recommend skipping straight to Automata, it's just not fun at all for many people.
To return to this...well..frick those people? I don't know, pearls before swine?
Nier 1 and 2 is one of the few big budget jrpgs to come out to really do anything interesting with itself as far as messaging and narrative in the past 10 or more years. It seems foolish to throw so much of that in the trash because you want to look up miniskirts and get at that sweet Platinum battle engine.
Its pretty easy to find cg animated porn of 2B. And there are other Platinum games with a good fighting system.
Watching a summary doesn't do the story of the two games justice. A player does their self a disservice by watching the summary and starting the second, or just playing the second.
For what it is worth, every person I've talked into doing the second play through has been blown away by Nier 1 and has moved the game to their top 10 list of games. The only person I can think of that wasn't down, who I actually purchased the game for was my little sister who put 1 hour in it and gave up. But she's more of a SIMS and harvest type person so the game might have been wasted on her.
Nier is simply an ugly game. A friend of mine was interested in FF VII Remake once he saw how beautiful the art was. This is the difference.
>Nier is simply an ugly game. A friend of mine was interested in FF VII Remake once he saw how beautiful the art was. This is the difference.
FF VII is a pretty good example.
Should zoomers play FF VII before playing Remake? I would argue yes because the original 7 is a better story and is assembled better than Remake. Remake is pretty but the story is really bad in comparison. Everything about changing the timeline and history and the plot harry potter dementors is stupid as frick and drags the material down.
>holy pseud
applies to the whole thread as well tbh, lmao at you Black folk' lives
>pre-timeskip Kaine + Yonah
>post-timeskip Emil + Papa
This picture really triggers my autism.
>It sucks that it is hard to talk people into playing rpgs and their adjacent games.
~30+ hours (generously low estimate) to get the full experience of a work is just a hard sell. It always will be. On top if it all, Nier's gameplay simply isn't that good. I got a few friends to play it because they trust my taste, but that's about it.
That being said I understand how you feel and also get disproportionately assblasted about post-Automata fans. I don't like to gatekeep, but as far as wanting to talk about the series with people I open with Drakengard as a sniff test.
>On top if it all, Nier's gameplay simply isn't that good. I got a few friends to play it because they trust my taste, but that's about it.
I mean, its not bad. It is the way it is on purpose. The game is suppose to give a feeling of hopeless nostalgia of a world long gone. It purposely barrows from past games. Hell, the game was probably half inspired from Yoko Taro playing Zelda 1 and Y's book 2. Weiss shooting magic bullets, twin androids, being able to understand the monsters is all some Y's 2 stuff. The 2nd play through and the shift in expectations wouldn't hit like they do had the game not purposely conjured your biases on action jrpgs with all those subconscious references. Taro wants you to be in the headspace of a 8 bit to 32 bit action jrpg. The twists cut a bit deeper because of that. Had the game mechanics been super fresh and new, or the world design been super fresh and new, I don't think things would have had the same impact.
Besides, didn't platinum clean up the battle mechanics with the rerelease of replicant?
>That being said I understand how you feel and also get disproportionately assblasted about post-Automata fans. I don't like to gatekeep, but as far as wanting to talk about the series with people I open with Drakengard as a sniff test.
ah, a pure and only Automata fan is barely worth talking to. The themes and social commentary of Auto really aren't that novel or interesting in the west when looked at in isolation. Automata is critical of government, organizations, collectivism, us vs them thinking. It also has lots of little sad side stories about the tragedy of life and existing and that sort of thing is less unique in the West. It becomes more interesting when paired with Drakengard and 1.
Also, Nier 2 takes more from modern anime, for better or worse. I don't mind B2 and 9S's design, but Adam and Eve's appearance and dialog is so shonen and feels kind out of place. Though that out of placeness might have been their intention.
You shouldn't recommend, you should make them intrigued. Your views on gestalt didn't intrigue me at all.
>Your views on gestalt didn't intrigue me at all.
I don't care. You're probably a dumbass that discounts anything you understand.
>be saltier than caspian sea
>be surprised when people don't listen to you
Lmao.
You're the one that told on yourself by asking to be intrigued. Its not my job to be some mysterious goblin, trying to mystify people into giving good games a chance. Like seriously, frick you, grow up. Needing to be intrigued is such a soft brain requirement.
Did you upgrade yourself to a salt pond? I might or might not be intrigued right now.
>Nier is a good example. I tried to get people to play Nier Gestalt before playing Automatia.
I am a Taro simp but what the frick were you thinking?
Yeah, R/G is beautiful and if you can you absolutely should play it before Automata but you even say it yourself:
>Nier is even worse in that regard because you have to do like 2 or 3 play throughs to really see what is unique about the game. And who the frick is going to do that blindly?
Even if they don't get filtered on the first playthrough, before the replicant remake came out, you're betting on them playing multiple times and appreciating the differences in each ending and viewing it from another characters POV.
It's just weirdly gatekeepy. I've been thinking on this a bit recently specifically about the XIV community but at times the DrakeNieR community has been bad at it too.
The insistence that you must do something this specific way in this specific order as if it's going to change the work. It'll change a reveal that happens down the line and they'll be lacking context but the game is framed around replaying it. It's a highly replayable game and it only grows with context.
As for just jumping in for combat, yeah gamers will do that. It's a damn nice ARPG and not everyone is shopping for philosophy.
>Most didn't, and just watched summary videos.
>God, I die inside just thinking about how many people glossed over Nier Gestalt with summary videos just to jump into auto
That said, time to get gatekeeping about NieR & Drakengard. Stop fricking watching youtube playthroughs and reading it the story on a wiki. You are completely and utterly ruining it for yourself by being a turboplotgay, the game is constructed in a way in which you get additional context and things to think on by completing more content and returning to it.
To use the master of pseuds himself:
Ironically, we will have to resort to doing this soon with Re[in]. Thanks Square!
>calling Lynch a pseud
lmao at your life
Lynch a pseud
I didn't call Lynch a pseud though?
>Stop fricking watching youtube playthroughs and reading it the story on a wiki. You are completely and utterly ruining it for yourself by being a turboplotgay, the game is constructed in a way in which you get additional context and things to think on by completing more content and returning to it.
Anon...I got all the endings on my own back in the day. And I had drakengaurdwhatever before nier 1. I didn't look into the japanese only book translation until after I got the 3rd or 4th ending.
I have actually done everything correctly, in order.
Another thing I think makes nier a hard sale is that both games boarder on being misery porn. Yoko is very big on pulling the rug out from under the player. Having dramatic highs and then dramatic lows.
I won't go into the details but in 1 there is a story where an old man loses his dog who goes out to get herbs for him that help him because he is sick. Well things happen and both of them die. The last you see of them is the old man petting the now dead dog in the afterlife.
Both games do that sort of thing over and over again. But its some of the best story telling in the games. Some of those events are rather blatant. Others are just kind of pieced together and vague.
Its hard to recommend a 10+ jrpg that is the writing equivalent of that episode of Futurama where his dog waits for him forever after he disappears.
>Another thing I think makes nier a hard sale is that both games boarder on being misery porn.
>both games
Try three. Re[in] is filled with its good old doses of misery, despair but also despair porn at first.
Not everything is a downer, but still. If you take it in small doses you have a good chance of getting back to back depression quests.
most people dont appreciate arts and will laugh if you tell them that a book, movie, manga or god forbid a video game has a beautiful story
those who do care will want to play in the right order, the others cannot be helped
>will laugh if you tell them that a book, movie, manga or god forbid a video game has a beautiful story
>those who do care will want to play in the right order, the others cannot be helped
With NieR & Drakengard order is less important like I said above and only serves to be overly gatekeepy but-
With the other mediums you mentioned it's less of a problem to say it has a beautiful story.
I think the issue with how I see NieR sold to others is that it's usually in that gatekeeping sense of play replicant first (which was terrible advice before the remaster; although remaster bad!) or just "it has a good story" and not much else. There is that desire to not spoil it for others but the hook with NieR is less that it's a "well written" game with a "good story" but rather it's a game that makes the most of its medium to tell it's highly memorable story in a way that only a videogame can and begs you to engage with it and play more on repeat playthroughs.
It doesn't sit you down and unfold its story with a 3 act structure, slap bang, ya done with a little NG+. It's a world, a universe and it has characters and stories that you'll remember for years to come.
There's also not a lot said about its focus on philosophy & characters so players who are looking for that dismiss it too.
We all want to sit someone down and force them to play Drakengard with us on our scuzzy 14" CRT we salvaged before they get to have fun with toobs ass but the reality is that they'll go for what they want.
If they can even get to playing Automata and do more than toobs route, there's a chance they can engage with the series more if they're enjoying what they're seeing.
I was one of those people. I finished Replicant & Gestalt before I'd even finished DoD. I started with DoD2, played it a bit and dropped it, went back to playing SMT III on loop. After Nier, I was dropping SJ to finish DoD.
>With NieR & Drakengard order is less important like I said above and only serves to be overly gatekeepy but-
Drakengard is far less important than Nier 1. A person can have that ruined for them and not much is lost. You learn about pacts and dragons and demons pretty early in Drakengard so finding out a demon pact fricked the world isnt that big of a loss.
The big thing with playing Nier 1 first is that Nier 2 glosses over the big reveal of 1. And you see it coming in 2. The big horrible thing is hinted at several times in 2, but you don't see it coming in 1. Nier goes to great lengths, to its detriment, to make you think you are playing a by the book action jrpg. If someone buys and beats all the endings of Auto first, they are essentially removing half of the impact of the new information you get in newgame+ on 1.
I don't want players to miss out on that. I feel like I was honestly surprised at the extra content in 1 because they don't dangle it in your face like games often do.
So long as someone isn't plotgayging too hard on a wiki or looking it up on youtube etc there's still a lot of that context missing and players don't always remember everything when spoiled. We really do gatekeep a little too hard. I think it's very possible to know the ending of G/R from Automata and go into it and enjoy it as a game.
That's still the biggest strength to G/R, is that added context you get on repeat playthroughs, seeing those repeating themes and characters.
>to make you think you are playing a by the book action jrpg.
>I don't want players to miss out on that. I feel like I was honestly surprised at the extra content in 1 because they don't dangle it in your face like games often do.
I went into G/R knowing there was going to be a twist and that I'd need more than one playthrough and that was off the recommendation of a friend. I played Gestalt first with the Western release because of shipping & customs and I still enjoyed the ARPG side.
I was priviledged enough to have that recommendation from someone who was not this reviewer...and I still loved it.
I think it definitely depends on the player and what they're looking for. I went in knowing it was a part deconstruction of genres like
alluded to on the zelda/y's side and I managed to enjoy it. In terms of what I enjoy about G/R I will say that the reveal in the 2nd route ranks low, individual context from that point on in regards to the context of bosses, but not the initial twist of the shades.
Trying to sell it as an ARPG you play and it totally has a good story dude but you just have to wait until...it gets good..! is kind of an odd hook when the games go to great lengths to change how we interact with them. It has a USP that's ignored based on that ideal virgin experience; again similar to the way the XIV community acts.
There's room to let people know the strengths of Taro's writing without shielding their virgin experience too.
oop
papa stole my image!
>I went into G/R knowing there was going to be a twist and that I'd need more than one playthrough and that was off the recommendation of a friend.
>In terms of what I enjoy about G/R I will say that the reveal in the 2nd route ranks low, individual context from that point on in regards to the context of bosses, but not the initial twist of the shades.
I cant help but feel like these two points are related.
>I cant help but feel like these two points are related.
Really? I only knew there was going to be a twist to keep me playing and play multiple times.
I didn't know the specific twist so perhaps that's why I don't see them as related. I'd say the big twist for me in G/R will always be Yonah's decision.
I kind of ran out of space again but when I said:
>That's still the biggest strength to G/R, is that added context you get on repeat playthroughs, seeing those repeating themes and characters.
What I enjoy in replicant is seeing those characters and themes appear & repeat again with added context. Where people will see Father as a hothead
willing to do anything to save his daughter. I see that same spirit come up again in Rein and it gets a smile out of me, a shiver runs down my neck as I remember how far brother & father were willing to go for someone who ultimately..
There's those same comparisons again within auTomato with A2 & Kaine although that one is absolutely intended.
That's what I mean on added context and repeat playthroughs. That means more to me now than the initial reveal of the shades.
>Really? I only knew there was going to be a twist to keep me playing and play multiple times.
>I didn't know the specific twist so perhaps that's why I don't see them as related. I'd say the big twist for me in G/R will always be Yonah's decision.
just the fact you were expecting it, deflates it a bit. Its like telling someone to watch a beautiful mind and say there is a twist. They spend half the movie looking for the twist.
Its better to not know and just let it happen.
I was just going to ignore this and let it be based on already stating it before but I'll just quickly tag it back before I go back to rein for the day
>just the fact you were expecting it, deflates it a bit. Its like telling someone to watch a beautiful mind and say there is a twist. They spend half the movie looking for the twist.
>So long as someone isn't plotgayging too hard on a wiki or looking it up on youtube etc there's still a lot of that context missing and players don't always remember everything when spoiled. We really do gatekeep a little too hard. I think it's very possible to know the ending of G/R from Automata and go into it and enjoy it as a game.
Considering that I was barely spoiled and only knew there was more to the game and I'd get more out of it on multiple playthroughs then no. Not really.
I'd spent most of my first run thinking my friend was referring to the OoTlike segments & diabloish points in the game and gameplay switching. I'd thought there'd be farther gameplay switches on other playthroughs.
I only replied again to this because it again goes to the concept of the virginal experience. This weird thing within the drakenier community like XIV and the MSQ.
Trying to protect my experience in 2010 off of a recommendation at release and farther virginal experiences when saying that there are multiple ways in which the story will be revealed over multiple playthroughs won't spoil anything for me really or keep me looking for a twist.
I engaged with the game fully and I loved it. It was bullet witch and more! It convinced me to go back and give DoD a chance, the real DoD and not that non canon one with super sexy ma-ma oh no......
I find the characters interesting. I loved reading the entries in rein as they came through and they continue to add context to the game beyond that first twist on the 2nd playthrough. If you love that twist, great, you got blindsided, I have been too. Stop obsessing over my popped cherry.
>There is that desire to not spoil it for others but the hook with NieR is less that it's a "well written" game with a "good story" but rather it's a game that makes the most of its medium to tell it's highly memorable story in a way that only a videogame can and begs you to engage with it and play more on repeat playthroughs.
>It doesn't sit you down and unfold its story with a 3 act structure, slap bang, ya done with a little NG+. It's a world, a universe and it has characters and stories that you'll remember for years to come.
>There's also not a lot said about its focus on philosophy & characters so players who are looking for that dismiss it too.
Some of that is just knowing how other gamers are. If you build something up as being philosophical or call it art or say it uses being a game as part of its narrative and to express itself, the other player kind of gets this chip on their shoulder and expects to be blown away.
But none of us are ever blown away, because games can only do so much.
Also, just the act of explaining the depth of Nier deflates the impact of it, because you need to play the first run thinking its a generic action jrpg. Thinking it is one thing only to find out it is another is part of what its trying to do.
I dont know, but it kind of sucks. For nier 1 to be what it is, it needs to have several hours of generic action jrpg. BUT the generic action jrpg part makes the game less accessible in 2024.
It takes like 16 hours to get ending A. Or so the web says. I feel like I did it in 6 or 8. But when you do that new game plus and you find out what was really going down...wow boy.
but if I give the player any indication that twist is coming, it loses its impact.
gamers want nothing more than to drool over graphics and sniff 2B ass
>the absolute state of nier-troons
>>the absolute state of nier-troons
This is a pretty good example on why its hard to recommend good rpgs. People get oddly defensive about this stuff.
Like the very idea that this other game over yonder has something cool in it and is making someone think about life or enjoy the way characters interact just offends people on a deep level.
Like you haven't been defending your shitty game for 10 hours.
>Like you haven't been defending your shitty game for 10 hours.
you just keep proving my point. What provokes this visceral response from you?
Fix your behavior, Black person
go drag your knuckles somewhere else, dickweed
>This is a pretty good example on why its hard to recommend good rpgs. People get oddly defensive about this stuff.
The worst thing about the NieR/Drakengard community has always been weird gatekeeping beyond the play the game stuff which kinda makes sense when you look at the context of how the games are made.
There's a weird obsession around secondaries and new entrants in the Automata era that's similar to the SMT fandom.
>Like the very idea that this other game over yonder has something cool in it and is making someone think about life or enjoy the way characters interact just offends people on a deep level.
I think you may have phrased this wrong, you're ESL or I'm failing to parse it. No offense. I've not seen that here or in the nier community in general, there's very little shitting on other games. Again, phrasing maybe idk.
>It's easier to just find someone who's already into rpgs than it is to talk someone into trying them. I feel like anyone who WOULD try them is already playing them.
I met someone playing XI who I think would love the series.
They don't have a modern console or anything only a potato, they missed out on NieR/Drakengard. They liked FF tactics, XII etc, they love music, they read philosophy, they suffered XI, lvled alts and make existentialist jokes all the time. They're primed and ready for a NieR & Automata playthrough at least, if they ever get a PS4 or 5 or a good PC. Maybe they can even get round to playing Endwalker and experience the existentialist story plotpoint contained there! If they ever upgrade their tater, maybe I'll gift it to them along with Romancing Saga.
You're right tho, it's much easier to sell something to someone when you know their likes and their wants. I can't comprehend trying to sell NieR to someone who doesn't like RPGs.
>The worst thing about the NieR/Drakengard community has always been weird gatekeeping beyond the play the game stuff which kinda makes sense when you look at the context of how the games are made.
Well, I mean, Nier 1 and 2 are all but intended to be played together. They go together well. Lore actually matters with these games.
Not playing 1 first is about like just jumping into Y's book 2 without every playing 1. 2 is the better game. You get more magic and stuff. You get items that let you talk to monsters and stuff. 2 is better. But they are meant to be played together.
Yeah, that's a stellar example of the gatekeeping.
>Yeah, that's a stellar example of the gatekeeping.
well frick, frick me for giving a shit. Just go off and play shit assbackwards and frick all kinds of shit up for yourself. Go play Lunar Magic school before the main games, I dont give shit.
Dude, 90% people played Automata first, then the Replicant remake later (then moved on). Drakenguard/Nier was a literally who series before Automata, no one played it.
And yes, playing Automata first is no big deal. In fact playing Replicant first spoils one of the major twists in Automata, humans being long dead, so it doesn't really matter which one you play first.
What's fricking weird to me is I played Gestalt in the first week of its release off of the recommendation from a friend because I liked a previous Cavia game and we'd talked about it.
I didn't click with DoD/Drakengard because we were two ships in the night, I feel like a secondary at times back then, I believe you should actually play the games where possible, not read a wiki or watch a video and yet still there are people mad.
When someone who almost certainly played the game after me is calling me out for having played the game wrong in 2010, do I downgrade myself to tertiary? It's fricking weird.
It's okay to play the games out of order. Like you said, if you played Replicant first you know Automata's twist. If you believe the situation changed then that's the same level of mental gymnastics & cluelessness you'd employ doing it in reverse. You have no true idea of what happened. You're given added context, the entire point of the series.
It's such a strange thing to see it go over players heads to the point of weird gatekeeping.
It gets weirder when you remember that the creator, Taro, does not believe a story needs to be told in a traditional structure or in a linear fashion.
The series has required me to place a great degree of empathy on others and I still cannot understand where these people are coming from. Is the wood not rendering?
>Like you said, if you played Replicant first you know Automata's twist.
Lol, that isn't the twist.
All the humans being dead wasn't the twist of 2. They hint at that from the very start of the game When they talk about the mysterious bunker on the moon full of humans you dont get to see. If humans are advanced enough to build sentient machines, why wouldn't they have the technology and ability to let you see them when they give orders? Whats the deal with the 1930's level shit, using radio transmissions?
The twist of 2 is that you're in love with 9s and have been murdering him with your own hands for years because he is too smart for his own good and always discovers some or all of the truth eventually. Other twists are that the alien robots and earth robots are evolving to a singular point that is almost human or will be all but human and have started to incorporate each other's technology. Whats in the black box is the big reveal of 2. The humans being gone but not telling the player is just good world building. Humans are a justification for 2B following orders and killing the person she loves. Its not the twist but supports the real twist. Another lesser twist or reveal is that Emil is still alive and is the last fragment of a human soul on the earth. A soul split 1000s of times to save the earth that his friends loved. To protect yourself and others, you end up killing the last human, disobeying the intent of your orders from the start of the game.
The humans being gone probably surprised people who started with Auto, but that wasn't a major plot thread of Auto.
Why'd you reply to me and not the original anon?
Why'd you jus give up on it? Here, let me recap for you:
>And yes, playing Automata first is no big deal. In fact playing Replicant first spoils one of the major twists in Automata, humans being long dead, so it doesn't really matter which one you play first.
which is a reply to
>well frick, frick me for giving a shit. Just go off and play shit assbackwards and frick all kinds of shit up for yourself.
where said anon was seething about playing "shit assbackwards" from
where they said Nier 1 & 2 are intended to be played together.
They go together well.
Lore actually matters with these games!
That anon replied to you honestly based off of the melty they were having at the time. They responded with the twist that playing N:A could ruin for your G/R playthrough and vice versa.
-but wait, if that's the twist you were talking about, then that means....wait a minute. Then you're not spoling anything at all.
Taro & Toylogic ddidn't bother to add E until after Automata, so nothing spoiled there. The ones you meet at E don't spoil anything for Automata, toobs or nines in the context of your comment either. You can go into Automata but you'll assume humanity is extinct
BUT WAIT MOTHERFRICKER
HUMANITY AIN'T EXTINCT
DID YOU FORGET ABOUT BEST FRICKING BOY?
THAT REALEST MOTHERFRICKING THAT FLESH AN- well human down to the ug- bone...
That's right, best boy.
Yeah, I guess that's the biggest twist and spoiler left in that context.
Again, it's just kinda weird to get really anal over virginal experiences. Someone who is playing R 1.22 is unlikely to notice the voice talent for the girl & boy at E, which again, wasn't there at release either and doesn't even touch upon your point.
It's just weirdly gatekeepy. They can play either one and they'll have that one piece spoiled for them. Whoa! Memory!
>It's just weirdly gatekeepy. They can play either one and they'll have that one piece spoiled for them.
I wouldn't say its weird. Nier 1 has a novel take away that usually pushes it to the top 10 list of anyone that bothers to finish it. That can't really be said for 2. Or at least it is not as true. The messaging of 2 is less unique or novel.
1 is critical of individualism, something english speakers dont see a lot of in gaming. 2 is more critical of collectivism, which really isn't unique in the western game market. English fiction has been critical of collectivism since the renaissance, maybe since the king of england broke from the Catholic church. 2 was probably more profound in Japan and similar cultures that value collective identity more.
1 ends with your character being the biggest frick up to have ever graced the earth. You manage to do what no demon lord or evil government in any other game has done and that is end humanity. Your original self fails to save humanity and his own daughter, and your new self pulled the trigger, willingly to save the body of his daughter for just a little longer. In the end, humanity dies not out of evil, but passion and stubbornness
At release, that was a pretty unique experience, and the people that played it want other people who like rpgs to have it. The plot threads in 2 however are not that unique. It is a good game and about as good as a sequel can be but I would not say its a must play.
Finding out that you're humanity's greatest frick up or choosing to delete your save to save kaine cause unique feelings that can not be found in 99.9% of games. I think people who gate keep just want someone interested in the property to have those same experiences.
>And yes, playing Automata first is no big deal. In fact playing Replicant first spoils one of the major twists in Automata, humans being long dead , so it doesn't really matter which one you play first.
anon...I dont even know how to respond to such an odd stupid thought
Brainlets often struggle with simple concepts.
You'll get there one day, mama'll see to it.
>Brainlets often struggle with simple concepts.
>You'll get there one day, mama'll see to it.
anon, thats not the major plot twist of Auto. Its not even that important of a detail outside of justifying why the androids follow orders without question
>thats not the major plot twist of Auto
Yes, it is. It's this big reveal at the end of Route B that's supposed to shock you and get you hyped for Route C. But if you've played Replicant, you already know it from the start.
Which is kind of weird if you really think about it. Is Automata best played without any prior knowledge of the series? Hmm.
>Yes, it is. It's this big reveal at the end of Route B that's supposed to shock you and get you hyped for Route C. But if you've played Replicant, you already know it from the start.
>Which is kind of weird if you really think about it. Is Automata best played without any prior knowledge of the series? Hmm.
Again, I say it is not. Nier one sold 500,000 copies even before Auto came out. It was made under the assumption many returning fans would buy it. Thats part of how it even got approved, the assumption it would bring in at least 500k buyers.
The truth about the humans is a very small detail on its own and was really only hidden to service other plot threads. It does not carry nearly the same weight in 2 as it did in 1.
The robots and androids evolving into a single sentient species, B2's feelings and past with 9S, the origin of the YoRHa type androids, emil's part in the android/machine war, these are all more important and bigger reveals.
Just because its a big twist to people that only play auto, doesn't mean it was intended to be the main twist of Auto.
One hinges on its two main twist That the shades are human souls and your character causes the extinction of mankind by forcing the G/R protocol to stop before the original problem caused by the 5th ending of Drakengard can be fixed. Mr. Nier is directly involved in these two twists and directly impacted by them. The shadowlord is the original while also having the body that ends it.
In auto, it is mostly a detail in the background. Its part of the world building. They are living with an outcome of an event that the characters of 1 had direct involvement. Whats in the black box, B2's past with 9S, the implied future between the machines and androids, and the implications of defeating Emil are all things your playable characters are directly engaged with, making them the main twists of the game.
Yeah, you really did provide a near perfect example in the first instance. You have expanded upon that with this post so gz where it's due.
You care a lot about context but you ignored it outright. Very strange tbh.
It's easier to just find someone who's already into rpgs than it is to talk someone into trying them. I feel like anyone who WOULD try them is already playing them. But yeah it sucks that some of the best games ever made will go underappreciated.
>Help I liked Nier 1 and everyone is a Moe weeb for 2 now.
>Step 1) Get DD2
>Step 2) "Observe as I end these lizards with a glacier on my flying sorc"
>Step 3) ???? (Also check out this Berserk manga fren)
>Step 4) A new generation of proper Gar otaku is born, who will end the weeb troony menace
Just shill Gar and stop with the cringy female protag games, much easier sell.
>Samus was really a girl all along!
>That's pretty cool I had to reload that ending a few times to even understand that back in the day with the cartridge and half a paragraph in Nintendo Power to guide me because it was about 50 pixels worth of actual not a robot body gameplay, or .000000000001% of metroid at the end.
>Hey, wanna play the one where the Samus MC runs around in high heels and is preggers?
>Euhh no, dropped.
Regarding art, even some of the best anime and games are rehashed similar pop culture concepts. I think I'll get a kindle and do some real reading again soon.
TL;DR Otaku > Weebs
P.S. Stop aiming small https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SO02HziBbe4
>I think I'll get a kindle and do some real reading again soon.
Consider a kindle+ if one exists. Or a larger, alternative device. 8 inches & above is paperback equivalent territory. That makes for some real comfy reading fren.
10" is another world, but 8in, pb boi
Thank you, unexpectedly pleasant advice person, I will take that under advisement. I was considering a little less obtrusive sizes for the alone in a bar/park times I am planning.
>I was considering a little less obtrusive sizes for the alone in a bar/park times I am planning.
I fully understand! That's part of why the kindle is so popular! a mere 6 incher! in the pocket next to your tadger!
However, it has a bezel and sometimes an 8 incher can also fit into manpants 😉
Really tho, so many people write themselves off to a basic kindle. I think Amazon make a new 8" or bigger one if you really want to be locked in the ecosystem, but I, as a man, regularly stow my 8 incher device in my trouser pocket and in my M65!
If you truly already enjoy the TPB experience, seek out 8" first, CFW second to reduce the margins and you'll be in heaven future Gankertit.
>spoiler tags everywhere
I hate weebs so god damn much
We CAN'T be specific because you need to read a spoiler-free thread...? I am sick of fricktards like you please don't play S/G.
Dunno what HR/T is, but I'm sure you guys love it and I wont.
You guys spoil the games by merely discussing it, because all your JRPGs have to offer is some cringe factory story.
Imagine trying to get people to play your slop, and all you can do to entice them is spoil what get them to do so, and not being able to just discuss the gameplay.
Gameplay in Taro games is garbage, Automata being the only passable one. The strength of these games come from the artistic vision and the writing.
I prefer Replicant 1.23 than Automata.
I like parrying shit following than doing weapon switch(better than a button is a weapon) and also the book wasn't broken unlike the pod.
Also Zero gameplay with the gaunlet were fun, better than 2B's barehand combat. A shame DoD3 others problems
I like the original releases gameplay but the 1.2 gameplay is good too and I also prefer it over Automata despite loving ARPGs & character action games.
There's things I'd like to take from both 1.0 & 1.2 to make the perfect version for replicant combat, the QoL upgrades mostly and book changes, the patched blocking (goodbye 1.0 cheese) and 1.0's weapon weights & speeds. Give me all that and I'd be a happy man.
If I could get just one change, a single measly change. It'd be slowing combat down again, give me those old weapon speeds & weights.
>You guys spoil the games by merely discussing it, because all your JRPGs have to offer is some cringe factory story.
>Imagine trying to get people to play your slop, and all you can do to entice them is spoil what get them to do so, and not being able to just discuss the gameplay.
aren't most western rpgs worse though? Like 9 times out of 10, the story is forgettable? And the game mechanics are just passable? Does anyone talk about the game mechanics of western rpgs? What would there even be to talk about? They've been using similar systems for 20, 30 years.
When you talk to someone about the new western rpg, what do you talk to them about? That you can use potions and weapons from the dark ages? That there is a magic system with fire, water, ice, earth, dark, light and healing magics? You get to kill DnD monsters?
hate to be that guy, but Skyrim with its forgettable story retains people for over a decade via the game mechanics and features.
>Skyrim
>Mechanics
o i am laffin lil warpiggy
m'hm, laugh it up
>noooo u don't understand it gets good on the third playthrough!
Say "I like X" and if you are an interesting person they will probably want to try and like it too
But they got the attitude of a Black person on crack so it never catches the eye of people.
What? Nier is an easy sale these days. Just show them a picture of Kaine, they don´t have to know. They may feel betrayed later on but by that point that´s no longer your problem, you already made the sale.
>tranNier
Not RPGs, not even good games.
Not a problem when recommending real RPGs, you just talk about the systems in them.
Don't.
RPGs as a genre was, is and always will be a niche thing. You cannot force people to like them without dumbing down everything for "accessibility". You'll end with another brainless action rpg or Pokemon-esque crap that is awful as game but survives on merch and shills. It's fate worse than death for any video game series.
>You cannot force people to like them without dumbing down everything for "accessibility".
XIV's a good example of this. An MMO that started out taking cues from XI to reinventing the weel for 2.0/ARR and then stripping everything out over the course of 4 expansions at the cost of meaningful gameplay & build variety.
The interviews for EW have been interesting to read as the designers are constantly struggling to make things work within the battle system.
You're right about RPGs being niche too, they're a genre with a lot of gameplay variety but you can transplant RPG elements into all kinds of games for your average game enjoyer.
> You'll end with another brainless action rpg or Pokemon-esque crap that is awful as game but survives on merch and shills. It's fate worse than death for any video game series.
LOL
although, as much as I love Drakengard & Nier, you know what.... While you can hardly call their narratives or experimentations & meta gameplay brainless you can certainly say that about their combat. They have serviceable combat, they have upgrade systems, builds that feel different but at some point you have to realise that the block button is all powerful, book skills are broken and about that spear...
Both games got by on merch and not a lot else until the magic of toobs cheeks captured horny morons hearts & minds in a new game with basic, but polished ARPG combat.
There's people to this day filtered by the 1st games combat and who only care about toobs & the combat in Automata. One of the most common complaints I see about Automata to this day are people who are upset at 9S' gameplay.