Is Dragon Age: Origins good? I'd say yes. It has the same pitfalls as all BioSlop games do, however the classes and specializations are fun. The combat is decent. It actually features character building and the ability to min-max.
AND, I think it has good worldbuilding and the story is done well in its simplicity. It's not the greatest thing since sliced bread or anything, but I feel the elitist highbrow crowd give it too much undeserved shit.
Everything that came after it, different story.
Pretty much. Theres implications that something like that is happening but you dont even know some evil force is manipulating Mewt until the end. Before that Marche just wants to stop to go back to the old world and doesnt care that a lot of people prefered the new one.
Its really supposed to be a Japanese morality tale about how being a good NIPONGU SARARYMAN FOLDED 1000 TIMESU BY GRORIUS OBDIENCE TRAINING that knows his place is good and being childish and trying to enjoy yourself likes its that brief time in high school where they are allowed to play vidya and enoy things is bad. It especially stands out with Marche just telling hsi little brother to get back in the wheelchair and know his place because hes older one and what he says goes
>Its really supposed to be a Japanese morality tale about how being a good NIPONGU SARARYMAN FOLDED 1000 TIMESU BY GRORIUS OBDIENCE TRAINING that knows his place is good and being childish and trying to enjoy yourself likes its that brief time in high school where they are allowed to play vidya and enoy things is bad. It especially stands out with Marche just telling hsi little brother to get back in the wheelchair and know his place because hes older one and what he says goes
No what it's saying is ultimately, escapism shouldn't be taken to the point of running away from reality. Pic related, and the answer to the question the pic poses is that at the end of the day, even if the world sucks, you still live in it. You don't just get to opt out, take only the good and none of the bad. That is the thinking of a delusional child who wants no responsibility or consequence in life. Fricking get over it, not everything in life is fair, so make the most of what you have.
4 weeks ago
Anonymous
Yes that is one of the ideas but the other level is the Japanese ideal that wanting things to be good for you is wrong. When you leave high school your life ends and you live for the collective after that. Trying to change things and caring about being happy ever again makes other people uncomfortable so just fit in. Its one of the reasons you have so many hikkimori because most things that address their alienation are messages like this "Man up stop having selfish desires and live the way you were meant to"
4 weeks ago
Anonymous
>Its one of the reasons you have so many hikkimori because most things that address their alienation are messages like this "Man up stop having selfish desires and live the way you were meant to"
No, you have so many because society enables them. Hikkis weren't really a thing in the 80s because if you wanted to opt out then too bad, beatings will fix that.
They don't really show you what he's planning on doing or why he believes he can defeat the darkspawn. I used to think he was more interesting than Saren from ME1, but after a recent replay, he's pretty much just a cartoon evil man.
>but after a recent replay, he's pretty much just a cartoon evil man. >Be Loghain Mac Tir >Be military genius >Free Ferelden from the Orlesian occupiers >Be best bros with King Maric afterwards >He dies >You have to take orders from his moronic son now >A kid more obsessed with fairytales than military matters >Loves to suck off Orleasians and Gray Wardens >Goes into battle woefully unprepared >Gets everyone slaughtered >You refuse to lead your man into the slaughter >You're somehow a traitor because of this
I always kill him cause Alistair is a bro and the line of succession, but Loghain objectively did nothing wrong.
how on gods green earth does anyone believe loghain is competent? the mans political scheming and schizoing at the wardens would've led the entire country to its destruction were it not for our player
did you not notice that loghain deliberately planned for cailan to fail? seriously I don't get how so few people connect the dots at ostagar >tower of ishal "sealed off" when you get there by orders of loghain because they found something in the lower levels >you know, exactly where the darkspawn come from when they overrun the tower during the battle >at the meeting said that he would have his men staff the tower to light the signal, and is pissy when cailan overrules him to have the grey wardens do it
it's pretty clever insofar as he would've created a situation where the beacon was never lit and he could say with a straight face that the signal never came, but our warden fricked his plan up and forced his hand
whether they could've won at ostagar is irrelevant because loghain made sure it would be a loss in any scenario
>whether they could've won at ostagar is irrelevant because loghain made sure it would be a loss in any scenario
It's amazing how few people seem to understand this
>whether they could've won at ostagar is irrelevant because loghain made sure it would be a loss in any scenario
It is relevant because the casualties would be higher if Loghain sent his troops to fight and die in a losing battle.
as opposed to dying in the civil war he sparked?
and you could easily say the route wouldn't be as bad if loghains troops helped buy time for a better retreat instead of wholesale slaughter
>as opposed to dying in the civil war he sparked?
The civil war would have happened either way, possibly even worse. The loss of Cailan creates a power vacuum which means there will be opportunists trying to profit from it, and everyone else is too confused by the chaos to unite forces and repell darkspawns. If anything, the conflict between Loghain and Aemon stopped more ambitious arls and banns from defecting.
>A kid more obsessed with fairytales than military matters
and yet in the end he was far more right about everything than Loghain. Which is how it usually goes irl too dumb jaded c**ts like Loghain try and drag down the world until it fits there specific bitter and jaded views and have no vision on how to make things better no ambition for greatness. People like Loghain would burn the world down themselves before admitting their simplistic black and white views of the world were wrong.
how can a bastard be in line of succession? he is also a grey warden and grey wardens give up their titles as well. he is a little b***h who cares more about getting revenge then literally saving the world and becomes a drunk hobo
NTA. Bastards inheriting their father's titles isn't unheard of, especially when there's no other clear alternative. And he couldn't give up a title he didn't have or a claim he had not been given considering he wasn't acknowledged beforehand.
It's obviously a matter of might-makes-right though. Eamon had no better candidate to oppose Anora's claim to the throne, and uniting the kingdom against the Darkspawn was the priority. Ignoring the law for that goal was more important than laws. It is only when Anora shows she's willing to cooperate with the player that a different alternative appears.
>Basically murder your king by neglect. >Support several nobles and one in particular who terrorize the local population and other nobles more than Orlais ever has out of greed and sheer cruelty so you can keep your power. >Actively seek out to assasinate everyone who wittnessed your crimes. >The fairytales you killed your king for are actually true. >You do absolutely nothing to keep these fairytales from ravaging the lands leading to half the country becoming refugees. >The only reason Ferelden wasnt swallowed whole by the blight is the people you try to assasinate keep fighting out of moron heroism and risking their ass instead of just fricking off. Which is more patriotic than anything you have done past beating Orlais. >Actually you are the one being more interested in fairy tales reliving your old war stories, refusing to come to terms with it and doing the smart thing instead of outright ignoring the blight and rather fighting imaginative enemies who havent set food on your soil for decades. >If your c**ty daughter is not locked away she will still do anything to keep power in the same ruthless way you did even AFTER all the shit went down and you gotten exposed. >SomeHowe you are a morally grey patriot and not just a power hungry ursuper.
You have to pretend a lot of the game doesn't exist to let bioware get away with the logain they imagined they were writing
He does too much saturday morning cartoon villain stuff like being an ally of tim curry for any of his actions to be morally ambiguous and understandable
>but after a recent replay, he's pretty much just a cartoon evil man. >Be Loghain Mac Tir >Be military genius >Free Ferelden from the Orlesian occupiers >Be best bros with King Maric afterwards >He dies >You have to take orders from his moronic son now >A kid more obsessed with fairytales than military matters >Loves to suck off Orleasians and Gray Wardens >Goes into battle woefully unprepared >Gets everyone slaughtered >You refuse to lead your man into the slaughter >You're somehow a traitor because of this
I always kill him cause Alistair is a bro and the line of succession, but Loghain objectively did nothing wrong.
As an example, if you actually play the game tim curry has already massacred the family of a duke before the battle of ostagar, which makes it clear that there was always going to be a coup and regicide and logain sabotaged the battle plan. but bioware thought they were writing it as ambiguous and intended it to be up to interpretation
[...]
As an example, if you actually play the game tim curry has already massacred the family of a duke before the battle of ostagar, which makes it clear that there was always going to be a coup and regicide and logain sabotaged the battle plan. but bioware thought they were writing it as ambiguous and intended it to be up to interpretation
Yeah, BioWare was widely considered the gold standard but their writing was always poor. Take Revan, for example. He was supposed to be the greatest mind of his time but when you play as him, all of his lines sound like he was 12.
It really irritated me this recent playthrough when I got to the dwarf section. Choose a side and pick a political leader without getting to know anything about either side or what they want to do. I hate making a decision like that. Not one that's difficult because either option is bad, but because I just don't get any info to form an opinion. I noticed more aspects of DAO like that on this playthrough.
the dwarven king stuff is the single worst piece of writing in the franchise on multiple levels for how opaque a decision it is and how blatantly they preferred one ending
there is precious little that actually shows how harrowmont or bhelen will govern, 90% of orzammar stuff is highlighting harrowmont as honorable while bhelen is ruthless and manipulative. the only two real hints at the reformer/conservative split are >the reformer dwarf in the bar who says he prefers harrowmont as the bigger reformer
which is and outright lie based on the endings
and >bhelen being in love with the commoners sister
which only someone who had played a dwarf commoner playthrough would really have as context
and from the epilogue slides onward there is absolutely zero benefit to picking harrowmont while the only downside about bhelen is him being a napoleon esque autocrat
>all of his lines sound like he was 12
That's exactly why Bioware was widely considered the gold standard because it was the type of shit dumb teenagers thought sounded and deep and mature, and dumb teens have basically always ruled the internet.
>They don't really show you what he's planning on doing or why he believes he can defeat the darkspawn.
His basic mindset is "come on guys, this can't be a REAL Blight, just a minor Darkspawn invasion we haven't had one of those in like centuries."
Nevermind that the easiest way of knowing if a Blight is happening or not is if suddenly the Dwarves are having a way easier time holding off the Darkspawn.
>They don't really show you what he's planning on doing or why he believes he can defeat the darkspawn.
Because the key to defeating the Archdaemon is a tightly-kept secret that only Gray Wardens are allowed to know about. He literally doesn't know the truth.
the dwarven king stuff is the single worst piece of writing in the franchise on multiple levels for how opaque a decision it is and how blatantly they preferred one ending
there is precious little that actually shows how harrowmont or bhelen will govern, 90% of orzammar stuff is highlighting harrowmont as honorable while bhelen is ruthless and manipulative. the only two real hints at the reformer/conservative split are >the reformer dwarf in the bar who says he prefers harrowmont as the bigger reformer
which is and outright lie based on the endings
and >bhelen being in love with the commoners sister
which only someone who had played a dwarf commoner playthrough would really have as context
and from the epilogue slides onward there is absolutely zero benefit to picking harrowmont while the only downside about bhelen is him being a napoleon esque autocrat
Harrowmont vs Bhelen is the right thing to do vs the correct thing to do. Harrowmont is more moral and is a better person, but he's ultimately not what the dwarves need to survive. Bhelen is utterly ruthless but he's the best chance the dwarves have got.
>Because the key to defeating the Archdaemon is a tightly-kept secret that only Gray Wardens are allowed to know about
Doesn't matter he doesn't believe there is an archdaemon to defeat anyway.
>he didn't read the letters at Ostagar
Cailan was happily inviting the Orlesian army into Ferelden, it was Loghain's taking over what held them at bay.
I can deeply sympathise with wanting to feel nothing in a comfortable void forever, but to impose it on the screaming multitudes of the material plane is the path to ruin for both realms.
Kerghan was frankly insane.
There was absolutely no indication they would lose the battle like the others. He abandoned half the army, put the kingdom under threat of the literal apocalypse of that universe just because he personally disliked the King. Absolute c**t with no redeeming qualities, I only see contrarians with no argument defend him.
>and a hundred times more dangerous than orlais
nah not really
Orlais with a competent monarch and a united nobility is by far the most dangerous nation in Thedas, Tevinter could be dangerous but has spent the past several centuries locked in war with the Qunari, and given the writers magically gave the Qunari a powerup including occupying some major Tevinter Cities they're definitely lower.
>it was Loghain's taking over what held them at bay.
and yet you ignored the FACT of >as of Inqusition they still haven't taken over Ferelden
Orlais is in a civil war and if you choose the Emperor he is implied to be an expansionist.
to be fair this is because the writers refuse to let you frick over ferelden, partly because of fanboyism over the dogfrickers and partly in their usual MO of trying to force a samey worldstate for sequels (see trespasser's epilogue and the divines and mages for this at its most obvious)
like Gaspard is otherwise a massive warmongering expansionist but he will always make peace with ferelden in his epilogue regardless of your playstyle. you could have fricked over ferelden constantly including letting amaranthine, the 2nd biggest city, be utterly ruined, yet gaspard just lets it go.
>have Allistair and Anora marry >make Logain a grey warden >have him die killing the archdemon
perfect ending with no meaningless demon baby from that witch prostitute
The demon god only makes the kid grow with mild schizoid and autistic tendencies before Morrigan's GILF mommy steals the god from her. That's why that anon called the whole thing meaningless.
God how I loathe Bioware writing
he was a really poorly written cringe villian. He is how liberals see conservatives that they would kill close friends family to keep america great again.
What exactly would be accomplished by Arcadia going to war with Rozarria? Because people forget about that part of his plan to focus on the Occuria stuff.
Nothing Vayne did was without reason. He didn't want to nuke Rabanastre, but he did need to crush all the rebels before they succeeded in assassinating him. He didn't want to kill Larsa, but there were others trying to replace him with Larsa. He killed his older brothers so he'd be next in line, he killed his father so he could consolidate all the power in Archadia.
The great tragedy is that if no one conspired against him, he would have only nuked Rozzaria's military. Everyone else would be safe and Vayne would've been a benevolent Dynast King. Hell, he would've been alive to stop Ajora, being nearly ageless and all. No genocides, no church taking over, no hundred years war. Delita and Teta would've grown old together, educated, healthy, and happy.
I fricking hated Anders and I even saved him in DA2, unlike thjs butthole that I have killed every playthrough. Traitors of the country/king is in the deepest circle of hell for a reason.
Eh. The king planned to betray the country to Orlais though. You can find letters proving he was seduced by the orlesian queen, and planning on divorcing Loghains daughter and marrying the queen of Orlais. Which would have basically made Fereldan Orlais' b***h.
Last time the Orlesians were in Fereldan was a very bad time for all involved. It's the only reason anyone likes Loghain: he's a warhero and his men are the only people who have anything good to say about him. Orlesians murder-raped Loghain's family and literally killed his dog so he led the campaign to kick them out. Giving up all he worked for to surrender the country for them for Orlesian pussy, along with the whole throwing his daughter aside (which makes her useless sloppy seconds in fantasy europe) says to me that Loghain's reasons were completely valid.
Honestly Loghain is a fricking disaster of a man. With the exception of distrusting the Grey Wardens for no adequately explainable reason which was weird from the start, everything he's involved in starts out sane and reasonable, then turns to shit because he is so obviously the villain.
Even his betrayal of the king starts reasonable: the king ignored the sensible battle plan of his top general to go Leeroy Jenkins and Loghain looked at the mess and decides the battle is lost and withdraws.
It's not great, but Loghain has a rep and it was his son-in-law. If he says that's what happened, people will believe it.
Except everything he does after that looks like the action of a villain. Blaming the grey wardens for no reason when his reason for the king dying already made sense, working some bizarre coverup, seizing power from people who would have listened to him anyway if he wasn't so obviously seizing power, and making his top ally the Arl everyone else knows is evil and hates.
Even if the king thinks with his dick, as his general you do not have the luxury of abandoning him and the troops in combat. If you're such a great war genius it is up to you to convince the king that the battle will end in slaughter. If you fail at that, grit your teeth at your incompetence, suck it up and fight for the crown. No excuses.
A king can definitely betray his subjects, and it's hard to argue he wasnt doing that. Like, what more do you want? Does the king need to be fricking Loghain's wife too? A general's responsibility is to his men, and Loghain didnt want to get them killed fighting the 'tard king out of a bad position he'd demanded he get into.
Or at least, I *wish* I could say that. Loghain is so moronicly evil it's hard to say if that's the truth. Thats the issue with the guy, he takes reasonable situations and fricks them up by being such an unllkeable butthole.
>Eh. The king planned to betray the country to Orlais though
except there was no facts to back this up. Just bullshit made up by Loghain bootlickers
Is been so long you made me second guess myself. I remembered it was a thing from the Return to Ostagar DLC so I double checked the wiki and I'm glad past me wasn't hallucinating.
You can find the Kings letters. First is one that talks about Orlais offering to send troops into Fereldan, the second his uncle advising him that his queen (Loghains daughter) hasnt had a child and so he needs to put her aside, and the third is a secret letter from the Queen of Orlais talking about an alliance.
There's even a dev interview confirming it too:
> Was Cailan really planning on leaving Anora for the Empress of Orlais, or was Loghain exaggerating? >David Gaider: Hahah! You know it's funny, that was a plot that was originally in Origins, and we couldn't include it. The Empress of Orlais was supposed to have been visiting Denerim during the time of the Blight. We had a whole plot prepared for it, but that's the way development goes. Things get cut all the time.
So what you saw in Return to Ostagar was sort of a callback to what was happening there. The plan originally actually was yes, that Cailan was planning to divorce Anora originally, and Loghain discovered what was going on. But of course that's not why he did what he did right? Loghain being the completely reasonable man that he is...
>A king can definitely betray his subjects
Nta but, no. The king is ultimately sovereign and thus all power and authority granted by God in his ordainment flows directly through him. The king is the nation itself, all land and all the people who live in it are his property. A king may have responsibilities towards what he owns and controls but he can't betray his people, just his responsibilties because the people have no actual rights under a king's domain, they are merely living on his land and tolerated by him, just as he is ostensibly tolerated by God.
Unless the king has limitations on his power in which case are you REALLY a king if you have to share it? If the monarch is anything other than absolute, isn't that just a slippery slope to not having a monarchy at all anymore?
>Or at least, I *wish* I could say that. Loghain is so moronicly evil it's hard to say if that's the truth.
The reason why people are arguing about it is because BioWare writers are hacks. They tell you that Loghain has a point and is competent but the game shows otherwise and paints him as a villainous bumbling fool.
If you actually read the letters the Orlesian empress is openly lamenting to Calain that he's being loyal to his barren b***h of a wife instead of rawdogging her fertile pussy. There's no real indication Calain was flagging either.
>'Says If you actually read the letters' >But has no idea what they fricking say.
Dude, I remembered them better than you. Which is shocking because I read these over a decade ago. I was going off memories of memories. Take a look:
Letter 1 is a letter with the queens offer of orlesian soldiers in Fereldan.
Letter 2 is Cailan's uncle telling him he needs to drop the queen. He does seem pretty pleading in tone so maybe you've got that mixed up with the queens letters?
Letter 3 is the queen again, talking obliquely about how they can continue their talks of an alliance. The game goes out of it's way to make clear it's not the same as letter 1, which is labelled as being an official letter, it's in an 'uncharacteristically familiar tone' (i.e. not stately, they are used to sending personal letters) and it looks like it's been crumpled up and smoothed out again (which I take as it's a secret letter Cailan has had to hide).
It's true nothing says directly that Cailan planned to marry her and betray Fereldan, but those three together paint a pretty damning picture so I call that reading between the lines. And maybe I'd be less confident but the devs are on record as having said that is what they intended to get across.
>Or at least, I *wish* I could say that. Loghain is so moronicly evil it's hard to say if that's the truth.
The reason why people are arguing about it is because BioWare writers are hacks. They tell you that Loghain has a point and is competent but the game shows otherwise and paints him as a villainous bumbling fool.
Honestly, the problem is if Loghain was sensible there wouldn't be a fricking plot. Or it'd be greatly reduced. There needs to be a pointlessly evil ruler or else we'd be surrounded by troops sheperding us to each location for support in the war. Which yeah, is bad writing. Loghain has a completely sensible logical path he could follow and he repeatedly fricks himself over by choosing unreasonable insane reactions.
Though as I say that, considering the current state of politics and the resurgence of anti-intellectual, populist movements with completely moronic leaders, its simultaneously very realistic. Reality can be stranger than fiction sadly; fiction has to make sense.
>but the devs are on record as having said that is what they intended to get across.
Basically this whole thread is people shitting on the disconnect between what the devs thought they were writing/intended to get across and what they actually wrote.
Loghain's problem is he's a Mao-like figure. He knows how to fight a war....and that's about it. He knows how to command an army, he doesn't know how to govern a nation, and he doesn't understand that treating the people of a nation like his soldiers doesn't work.
Loghain is not a statesmen, he doesn't know how to negotiate, only rule through command, which is bad when your kingdom is not an absolute monarchy and you have to play politics with the various noble factions. His daughter understands this shit far better than he does, but no one likes her because she's a b***h.
You would hate him if he had a voice that didn't make him sound imposing but he did all the same shit. Imagine if instead of Simon Templeman he was voiced by I don't know, Carth's voice actor?
Oh boy a goyslop thread.
Is Dragon Age: Origins good? I'd say yes. It has the same pitfalls as all BioSlop games do, however the classes and specializations are fun. The combat is decent. It actually features character building and the ability to min-max.
AND, I think it has good worldbuilding and the story is done well in its simplicity. It's not the greatest thing since sliced bread or anything, but I feel the elitist highbrow crowd give it too much undeserved shit.
Everything that came after it, different story.
settle down jarpiggy your goyslop threads are all around
Loghain is a cringe chudcel
He said "did nothing wrong", not "did nothing"
you can't do anything wrong if you're not doing anything at all
Not true, he killed Matt.
Loghain a homosexual having a midlife crisis and trying to relive his glory days.
yep, the redpill about ffta is that you're actually the villain.
Isn't the villain slowly draining lifeforce from all of its inhabitants to maintain the fake world?
nope. nothing like that is ever mentioned.
Pretty much. Theres implications that something like that is happening but you dont even know some evil force is manipulating Mewt until the end. Before that Marche just wants to stop to go back to the old world and doesnt care that a lot of people prefered the new one.
Its really supposed to be a Japanese morality tale about how being a good NIPONGU SARARYMAN FOLDED 1000 TIMESU BY GRORIUS OBDIENCE TRAINING that knows his place is good and being childish and trying to enjoy yourself likes its that brief time in high school where they are allowed to play vidya and enoy things is bad. It especially stands out with Marche just telling hsi little brother to get back in the wheelchair and know his place because hes older one and what he says goes
>Its really supposed to be a Japanese morality tale about how being a good NIPONGU SARARYMAN FOLDED 1000 TIMESU BY GRORIUS OBDIENCE TRAINING that knows his place is good and being childish and trying to enjoy yourself likes its that brief time in high school where they are allowed to play vidya and enoy things is bad. It especially stands out with Marche just telling hsi little brother to get back in the wheelchair and know his place because hes older one and what he says goes
No what it's saying is ultimately, escapism shouldn't be taken to the point of running away from reality. Pic related, and the answer to the question the pic poses is that at the end of the day, even if the world sucks, you still live in it. You don't just get to opt out, take only the good and none of the bad. That is the thinking of a delusional child who wants no responsibility or consequence in life. Fricking get over it, not everything in life is fair, so make the most of what you have.
Yes that is one of the ideas but the other level is the Japanese ideal that wanting things to be good for you is wrong. When you leave high school your life ends and you live for the collective after that. Trying to change things and caring about being happy ever again makes other people uncomfortable so just fit in. Its one of the reasons you have so many hikkimori because most things that address their alienation are messages like this "Man up stop having selfish desires and live the way you were meant to"
>Its one of the reasons you have so many hikkimori because most things that address their alienation are messages like this "Man up stop having selfish desires and live the way you were meant to"
No, you have so many because society enables them. Hikkis weren't really a thing in the 80s because if you wanted to opt out then too bad, beatings will fix that.
Loghain has never survived in my playthroughs, I have also never played anything past the Dragon Age Origins dlcs
from persona 2 right?
They don't really show you what he's planning on doing or why he believes he can defeat the darkspawn. I used to think he was more interesting than Saren from ME1, but after a recent replay, he's pretty much just a cartoon evil man.
>but after a recent replay, he's pretty much just a cartoon evil man.
>Be Loghain Mac Tir
>Be military genius
>Free Ferelden from the Orlesian occupiers
>Be best bros with King Maric afterwards
>He dies
>You have to take orders from his moronic son now
>A kid more obsessed with fairytales than military matters
>Loves to suck off Orleasians and Gray Wardens
>Goes into battle woefully unprepared
>Gets everyone slaughtered
>You refuse to lead your man into the slaughter
>You're somehow a traitor because of this
I always kill him cause Alistair is a bro and the line of succession, but Loghain objectively did nothing wrong.
how on gods green earth does anyone believe loghain is competent? the mans political scheming and schizoing at the wardens would've led the entire country to its destruction were it not for our player
did you not notice that loghain deliberately planned for cailan to fail? seriously I don't get how so few people connect the dots at ostagar
>tower of ishal "sealed off" when you get there by orders of loghain because they found something in the lower levels
>you know, exactly where the darkspawn come from when they overrun the tower during the battle
>at the meeting said that he would have his men staff the tower to light the signal, and is pissy when cailan overrules him to have the grey wardens do it
it's pretty clever insofar as he would've created a situation where the beacon was never lit and he could say with a straight face that the signal never came, but our warden fricked his plan up and forced his hand
whether they could've won at ostagar is irrelevant because loghain made sure it would be a loss in any scenario
>whether they could've won at ostagar is irrelevant because loghain made sure it would be a loss in any scenario
It's amazing how few people seem to understand this
>whether they could've won at ostagar is irrelevant because loghain made sure it would be a loss in any scenario
It is relevant because the casualties would be higher if Loghain sent his troops to fight and die in a losing battle.
as opposed to dying in the civil war he sparked?
and you could easily say the route wouldn't be as bad if loghains troops helped buy time for a better retreat instead of wholesale slaughter
>as opposed to dying in the civil war he sparked?
The civil war would have happened either way, possibly even worse. The loss of Cailan creates a power vacuum which means there will be opportunists trying to profit from it, and everyone else is too confused by the chaos to unite forces and repell darkspawns. If anything, the conflict between Loghain and Aemon stopped more ambitious arls and banns from defecting.
>A kid more obsessed with fairytales than military matters
and yet in the end he was far more right about everything than Loghain. Which is how it usually goes irl too dumb jaded c**ts like Loghain try and drag down the world until it fits there specific bitter and jaded views and have no vision on how to make things better no ambition for greatness. People like Loghain would burn the world down themselves before admitting their simplistic black and white views of the world were wrong.
how can a bastard be in line of succession? he is also a grey warden and grey wardens give up their titles as well. he is a little b***h who cares more about getting revenge then literally saving the world and becomes a drunk hobo
NTA. Bastards inheriting their father's titles isn't unheard of, especially when there's no other clear alternative. And he couldn't give up a title he didn't have or a claim he had not been given considering he wasn't acknowledged beforehand.
It's obviously a matter of might-makes-right though. Eamon had no better candidate to oppose Anora's claim to the throne, and uniting the kingdom against the Darkspawn was the priority. Ignoring the law for that goal was more important than laws. It is only when Anora shows she's willing to cooperate with the player that a different alternative appears.
>Basically murder your king by neglect.
>Support several nobles and one in particular who terrorize the local population and other nobles more than Orlais ever has out of greed and sheer cruelty so you can keep your power.
>Actively seek out to assasinate everyone who wittnessed your crimes.
>The fairytales you killed your king for are actually true.
>You do absolutely nothing to keep these fairytales from ravaging the lands leading to half the country becoming refugees.
>The only reason Ferelden wasnt swallowed whole by the blight is the people you try to assasinate keep fighting out of moron heroism and risking their ass instead of just fricking off. Which is more patriotic than anything you have done past beating Orlais.
>Actually you are the one being more interested in fairy tales reliving your old war stories, refusing to come to terms with it and doing the smart thing instead of outright ignoring the blight and rather fighting imaginative enemies who havent set food on your soil for decades.
>If your c**ty daughter is not locked away she will still do anything to keep power in the same ruthless way you did even AFTER all the shit went down and you gotten exposed.
>SomeHowe you are a morally grey patriot and not just a power hungry ursuper.
You have to pretend a lot of the game doesn't exist to let bioware get away with the logain they imagined they were writing
He does too much saturday morning cartoon villain stuff like being an ally of tim curry for any of his actions to be morally ambiguous and understandable
As an example, if you actually play the game tim curry has already massacred the family of a duke before the battle of ostagar, which makes it clear that there was always going to be a coup and regicide and logain sabotaged the battle plan. but bioware thought they were writing it as ambiguous and intended it to be up to interpretation
>before the battle of ostagar
Yeah, because Cailan is a shit king.
If logain were such a draconian patriot he'd have killed off his barren daughter
Yeah, BioWare was widely considered the gold standard but their writing was always poor. Take Revan, for example. He was supposed to be the greatest mind of his time but when you play as him, all of his lines sound like he was 12.
It really irritated me this recent playthrough when I got to the dwarf section. Choose a side and pick a political leader without getting to know anything about either side or what they want to do. I hate making a decision like that. Not one that's difficult because either option is bad, but because I just don't get any info to form an opinion. I noticed more aspects of DAO like that on this playthrough.
the dwarven king stuff is the single worst piece of writing in the franchise on multiple levels for how opaque a decision it is and how blatantly they preferred one ending
there is precious little that actually shows how harrowmont or bhelen will govern, 90% of orzammar stuff is highlighting harrowmont as honorable while bhelen is ruthless and manipulative. the only two real hints at the reformer/conservative split are
>the reformer dwarf in the bar who says he prefers harrowmont as the bigger reformer
which is and outright lie based on the endings
and
>bhelen being in love with the commoners sister
which only someone who had played a dwarf commoner playthrough would really have as context
and from the epilogue slides onward there is absolutely zero benefit to picking harrowmont while the only downside about bhelen is him being a napoleon esque autocrat
>all of his lines sound like he was 12
That's exactly why Bioware was widely considered the gold standard because it was the type of shit dumb teenagers thought sounded and deep and mature, and dumb teens have basically always ruled the internet.
>They don't really show you what he's planning on doing or why he believes he can defeat the darkspawn.
His basic mindset is "come on guys, this can't be a REAL Blight, just a minor Darkspawn invasion we haven't had one of those in like centuries."
Nevermind that the easiest way of knowing if a Blight is happening or not is if suddenly the Dwarves are having a way easier time holding off the Darkspawn.
>They don't really show you what he's planning on doing or why he believes he can defeat the darkspawn.
Because the key to defeating the Archdaemon is a tightly-kept secret that only Gray Wardens are allowed to know about. He literally doesn't know the truth.
Harrowmont vs Bhelen is the right thing to do vs the correct thing to do. Harrowmont is more moral and is a better person, but he's ultimately not what the dwarves need to survive. Bhelen is utterly ruthless but he's the best chance the dwarves have got.
>Because the key to defeating the Archdaemon is a tightly-kept secret that only Gray Wardens are allowed to know about
Doesn't matter he doesn't believe there is an archdaemon to defeat anyway.
Empire in Langrisser 2.
Everything Loghain did, no matter how violent or how cruel it was, was to keep filthy Orlesians out of Ferelden and thus morally in the right.
>Everything Loghain did, no matter how violent or how cruel it was
What about no matter how stupid it was
Is it stupid if it accomplishes its goal of keeping the Orlesian filth out of Ferelden? I think not.
If it fricks up Ferelden and it falls to the blight easily, yes.
Trading French homosexuals for Black person raid is not that great
Blighted Ferelden is preferable to an Orlesian-occupied Ferelden.
>Everything Loghain did, no matter how violent or how cruel it was, was to keep filthy Orlesians out of Ferelden and thus morally in the right.
and yet as of Inqusition they still haven't taken over Ferelden. It was nothing but his paranoid racism
>he didn't read the letters at Ostagar
Cailan was happily inviting the Orlesian army into Ferelden, it was Loghain's taking over what held them at bay.
>it was Loghain's taking over what held them at bay.
and yet you ignored the FACT of
>as of Inqusition they still haven't taken over Ferelden
Orlais is in a civil war and if you choose the Emperor he is implied to be an expansionist.
My homie kerghan didn nuffin wrong
I can deeply sympathise with wanting to feel nothing in a comfortable void forever, but to impose it on the screaming multitudes of the material plane is the path to ruin for both realms.
Kerghan was frankly insane.
There was absolutely no indication they would lose the battle like the others. He abandoned half the army, put the kingdom under threat of the literal apocalypse of that universe just because he personally disliked the King. Absolute c**t with no redeeming qualities, I only see contrarians with no argument defend him.
Are there even Orlesians in DAO? I don't know who that is. Are they the french slavers?
The slavers are from tevinter, which is basically the dragon age roman empire and a hundred times more dangerous than orlais
>and a hundred times more dangerous than orlais
nah not really
Orlais with a competent monarch and a united nobility is by far the most dangerous nation in Thedas, Tevinter could be dangerous but has spent the past several centuries locked in war with the Qunari, and given the writers magically gave the Qunari a powerup including occupying some major Tevinter Cities they're definitely lower.
to be fair this is because the writers refuse to let you frick over ferelden, partly because of fanboyism over the dogfrickers and partly in their usual MO of trying to force a samey worldstate for sequels (see trespasser's epilogue and the divines and mages for this at its most obvious)
like Gaspard is otherwise a massive warmongering expansionist but he will always make peace with ferelden in his epilogue regardless of your playstyle. you could have fricked over ferelden constantly including letting amaranthine, the 2nd biggest city, be utterly ruined, yet gaspard just lets it go.
>have Allistair and Anora marry
>make Logain a grey warden
>have him die killing the archdemon
perfect ending with no meaningless demon baby from that witch prostitute
>He doesn't let his kid win the ultimate genetic lottery by taking the power of an old dragon god
The demon god only makes the kid grow with mild schizoid and autistic tendencies before Morrigan's GILF mommy steals the god from her. That's why that anon called the whole thing meaningless.
God how I loathe Bioware writing
Yes OP, clinically demented and paranoid people aren't responsible for their actions, so he really did do nothing wrong.
He did pretty much everything wrong. Even if you agree with his motives, he utterly failed at pretty much everything.
pic unrelated.
that racist frick Loghain did EVERYTHING wrong and I executed him for all of his crimes
he was a really poorly written cringe villian. He is how liberals see conservatives that they would kill close friends family to keep america great again.
He did nothing wrong at all.
What exactly would be accomplished by Arcadia going to war with Rozarria? Because people forget about that part of his plan to focus on the Occuria stuff.
Nothing Vayne did was without reason. He didn't want to nuke Rabanastre, but he did need to crush all the rebels before they succeeded in assassinating him. He didn't want to kill Larsa, but there were others trying to replace him with Larsa. He killed his older brothers so he'd be next in line, he killed his father so he could consolidate all the power in Archadia.
The great tragedy is that if no one conspired against him, he would have only nuked Rozzaria's military. Everyone else would be safe and Vayne would've been a benevolent Dynast King. Hell, he would've been alive to stop Ajora, being nearly ageless and all. No genocides, no church taking over, no hundred years war. Delita and Teta would've grown old together, educated, healthy, and happy.
Ok, but why go to war with Rozarria?
If he did nothing wrong, then how did he lose?
It's interesting how every single one of his plans blow on his face because he keeps trusting the wrong people.
I fricking hated Anders and I even saved him in DA2, unlike thjs butthole that I have killed every playthrough. Traitors of the country/king is in the deepest circle of hell for a reason.
Eh. The king planned to betray the country to Orlais though. You can find letters proving he was seduced by the orlesian queen, and planning on divorcing Loghains daughter and marrying the queen of Orlais. Which would have basically made Fereldan Orlais' b***h.
Last time the Orlesians were in Fereldan was a very bad time for all involved. It's the only reason anyone likes Loghain: he's a warhero and his men are the only people who have anything good to say about him. Orlesians murder-raped Loghain's family and literally killed his dog so he led the campaign to kick them out. Giving up all he worked for to surrender the country for them for Orlesian pussy, along with the whole throwing his daughter aside (which makes her useless sloppy seconds in fantasy europe) says to me that Loghain's reasons were completely valid.
Honestly Loghain is a fricking disaster of a man. With the exception of distrusting the Grey Wardens for no adequately explainable reason which was weird from the start, everything he's involved in starts out sane and reasonable, then turns to shit because he is so obviously the villain.
Even his betrayal of the king starts reasonable: the king ignored the sensible battle plan of his top general to go Leeroy Jenkins and Loghain looked at the mess and decides the battle is lost and withdraws.
It's not great, but Loghain has a rep and it was his son-in-law. If he says that's what happened, people will believe it.
Except everything he does after that looks like the action of a villain. Blaming the grey wardens for no reason when his reason for the king dying already made sense, working some bizarre coverup, seizing power from people who would have listened to him anyway if he wasn't so obviously seizing power, and making his top ally the Arl everyone else knows is evil and hates.
Even if the king thinks with his dick, as his general you do not have the luxury of abandoning him and the troops in combat. If you're such a great war genius it is up to you to convince the king that the battle will end in slaughter. If you fail at that, grit your teeth at your incompetence, suck it up and fight for the crown. No excuses.
A king can definitely betray his subjects, and it's hard to argue he wasnt doing that. Like, what more do you want? Does the king need to be fricking Loghain's wife too? A general's responsibility is to his men, and Loghain didnt want to get them killed fighting the 'tard king out of a bad position he'd demanded he get into.
Or at least, I *wish* I could say that. Loghain is so moronicly evil it's hard to say if that's the truth. Thats the issue with the guy, he takes reasonable situations and fricks them up by being such an unllkeable butthole.
Is been so long you made me second guess myself. I remembered it was a thing from the Return to Ostagar DLC so I double checked the wiki and I'm glad past me wasn't hallucinating.
You can find the Kings letters. First is one that talks about Orlais offering to send troops into Fereldan, the second his uncle advising him that his queen (Loghains daughter) hasnt had a child and so he needs to put her aside, and the third is a secret letter from the Queen of Orlais talking about an alliance.
There's even a dev interview confirming it too:
https://dragonage.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:-Vim-/David_Gaider_on_Cailan,_Anora,_Celene_%26_Loghain
> Was Cailan really planning on leaving Anora for the Empress of Orlais, or was Loghain exaggerating?
>David Gaider: Hahah! You know it's funny, that was a plot that was originally in Origins, and we couldn't include it. The Empress of Orlais was supposed to have been visiting Denerim during the time of the Blight. We had a whole plot prepared for it, but that's the way development goes. Things get cut all the time.
So what you saw in Return to Ostagar was sort of a callback to what was happening there. The plan originally actually was yes, that Cailan was planning to divorce Anora originally, and Loghain discovered what was going on. But of course that's not why he did what he did right? Loghain being the completely reasonable man that he is...
>A king can definitely betray his subjects
Nta but, no. The king is ultimately sovereign and thus all power and authority granted by God in his ordainment flows directly through him. The king is the nation itself, all land and all the people who live in it are his property. A king may have responsibilities towards what he owns and controls but he can't betray his people, just his responsibilties because the people have no actual rights under a king's domain, they are merely living on his land and tolerated by him, just as he is ostensibly tolerated by God.
Unless the king has limitations on his power in which case are you REALLY a king if you have to share it? If the monarch is anything other than absolute, isn't that just a slippery slope to not having a monarchy at all anymore?
>Or at least, I *wish* I could say that. Loghain is so moronicly evil it's hard to say if that's the truth.
The reason why people are arguing about it is because BioWare writers are hacks. They tell you that Loghain has a point and is competent but the game shows otherwise and paints him as a villainous bumbling fool.
>Eh. The king planned to betray the country to Orlais though
except there was no facts to back this up. Just bullshit made up by Loghain bootlickers
If you actually read the letters the Orlesian empress is openly lamenting to Calain that he's being loyal to his barren b***h of a wife instead of rawdogging her fertile pussy. There's no real indication Calain was flagging either.
>'Says If you actually read the letters'
>But has no idea what they fricking say.
Dude, I remembered them better than you. Which is shocking because I read these over a decade ago. I was going off memories of memories. Take a look:
https://dragonage.fandom.com/wiki/Secret_Correspondence
Letter 1 is a letter with the queens offer of orlesian soldiers in Fereldan.
Letter 2 is Cailan's uncle telling him he needs to drop the queen. He does seem pretty pleading in tone so maybe you've got that mixed up with the queens letters?
Letter 3 is the queen again, talking obliquely about how they can continue their talks of an alliance. The game goes out of it's way to make clear it's not the same as letter 1, which is labelled as being an official letter, it's in an 'uncharacteristically familiar tone' (i.e. not stately, they are used to sending personal letters) and it looks like it's been crumpled up and smoothed out again (which I take as it's a secret letter Cailan has had to hide).
It's true nothing says directly that Cailan planned to marry her and betray Fereldan, but those three together paint a pretty damning picture so I call that reading between the lines. And maybe I'd be less confident but the devs are on record as having said that is what they intended to get across.
Honestly, the problem is if Loghain was sensible there wouldn't be a fricking plot. Or it'd be greatly reduced. There needs to be a pointlessly evil ruler or else we'd be surrounded by troops sheperding us to each location for support in the war. Which yeah, is bad writing. Loghain has a completely sensible logical path he could follow and he repeatedly fricks himself over by choosing unreasonable insane reactions.
Though as I say that, considering the current state of politics and the resurgence of anti-intellectual, populist movements with completely moronic leaders, its simultaneously very realistic. Reality can be stranger than fiction sadly; fiction has to make sense.
>but the devs are on record as having said that is what they intended to get across.
Basically this whole thread is people shitting on the disconnect between what the devs thought they were writing/intended to get across and what they actually wrote.
From the POV of a kindred, this guy was quite reasonable compared to LaCroix.
Loghain's problem is he's a Mao-like figure. He knows how to fight a war....and that's about it. He knows how to command an army, he doesn't know how to govern a nation, and he doesn't understand that treating the people of a nation like his soldiers doesn't work.
Loghain is not a statesmen, he doesn't know how to negotiate, only rule through command, which is bad when your kingdom is not an absolute monarchy and you have to play politics with the various noble factions. His daughter understands this shit far better than he does, but no one likes her because she's a b***h.
You would hate him if he had a voice that didn't make him sound imposing but he did all the same shit. Imagine if instead of Simon Templeman he was voiced by I don't know, Carth's voice actor?