>"Johto mons aren't ba-"
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>"Johto mons aren't ba-"
>"Johto mons aren't ba-"
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What are you talking about, most unova mons are shit
nah you're shit
Most in general are Pokémon are shit. There's literally like 40 Pokémon out of the 1000 that are actually good.
in its defense all Magcargo needed to be much more viable in Gen III was Recover.
HP 50 > 80
SpDef 80 > 100
New Ability : Super Heat - halves the BP of water type moves and completely stops ice type moves
There ya go, fixed your Magcargo
>halves
not enough
Even an Hydro Pump would become less than 60BP, i'd say that's enough for your shitmon
nope. magcargo isn't even good in a casual playthrough with water absorb, he has too many weaknesses
t. used him in a casual randomized playthrough in emerald
>has too many weaknesses
with water absorb it becomes only weak to ground, rock, and fighting. plenty of pokemon have more weaknesses than that. were you randomizing base stats in this playthrough?
no, also these are extremely common offensive types
consider this absolute crapmon evolves at level 30 fricking 8, later than blaziken
it also has 4x weakness to ground and also basically loses to anything that hits him for neutral because he has terrible bulk, speed, movepool and mediocre offense
So I guess the schizo theory that Game Freak hates Johto is true and they everything is was gimped to make KANTOOOOOOOO look better. why else when it would be the only Gen with many shitmons
252+ SpA Life Orb Starmie Water Pulse vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Magcargo: 343-406 (94.2 - 111.5%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO
nope
Give it water absorb. Since it’s body heat is supposed to be so hot it evaporates water on contact
people like you is why we get moronic balancing
Anything to make old pokemon better especially in a world where stuff like Good as Gold exists
>New Ability : Super Heat - halves the BP of water type moves and completely stops ice type moves
Wow, it’s fricking nothing!
A great ability that’s wasted on a mon it does nothing for. It already resists ice, and will still die to FRICKING SURF (50hp80spdef still x2)
>50hp80spdef
are you perhaps blind
>New Ability : Super Heat - Completely stops water type moves and burns water types on contact
Fixed your "fix"
Cherrypicking will get (you) nowhere in life anon
Not OP, but it is a valid complaint. Most Johto Pokemon have dogshit stats
>what is togetic xatu jumpluff sunflora yanma misdreavus sneasel stantler murkrow unown dunsparce gligar qwilfish corsola sudowoodo delibird
Like 2/3 of the fricking dex had to be fixed in post with an evo or a busted ability or is still in desperate need of a said fix
>competitive viability
Is this how low you have seeped?
magcargo not even worth in-game viability. everyone uses typhlosion or houndoom instead
>or houndoom
ABOUT that...
where the frick are you gonna get Slugma then, moron
besides that fricking code thing in HGSS
they've spent over 2 decades trying to salvage most of the dex and there is still much work to be done
Anon, Steelix has been a useless shitmon since R/S/E.
Steelix is decently good in Gen III and since then has become an "RU Staple" in following gens.
It's a shame how many Johto Pokemon have entirely fallen off. Tyranitar is now tied for 2nd weakest Psuedo with Metagross. Only the slug dragon that cannot be named is worse.
shuckle has been extremely viable in high tiers + ubers ever since it got sticky web
a lot of these pokemon were also good back in gen 2 and only dropped off due to mechanics changes or power creep
Tyranitar is still very strong, still sees solid use in natdex, BSS, and saw use in Reg B and C VGC. It being RU in SV OU is just one metagame, and not indicative of the Pokemon as a whole (and likely temporary in the grand scheme of things).
Octillery has always been a total shitmon, it's never had a viable role in any meaningful way, much less the higher tiers.
Houndoom was a UU staple for much of its early life and usable in OU, not bad. The Mega also was solid.
Jumpluff has had use in VGC.
Umbreon, Blissey, Hitmontop, Forretress are all decent at worst today.
Politoed is totally outclassed by Pelipper (unless that Scald situation pans out favorably for it), and Xatu by Hatterrene. Still technically got way better, but their performance doesnt show for it in the same way Slowking does, for example.
Moody, homie.
See
Moody's an uncompetitive ability, not a strong one
>uncompetitive
smogtroony detected, opinion discarded
I play VGC and BSS, wienersleeve-kun. Moody's not used there because it's an inconsistent strat, and not worthy of being used in competition.
the correct term is "unviable"
The correct term is, "get down on all 4's and clean my wiener", wienersleeve-kun.
you don't have a wiener troony, but you're happy sucking it anyway
Moody Glalie was the most powerful pokemon in gen 6-7 BSS anon
No it wasnt.
>Thinks Smogon invented the term uncompetitive
Please, for the love of god, play games other than just Pokemon
Some of these need to be fixed. Why are Suicune and Raikou in “still great” when they’re below Heracross and Crobat competitively? Why is Umbreon in “bad today” when it’s literally on par with Suicune?
Delibird got Iron Bundle though.
Alternates don't count.
Iron Bundle is a separate Pokemon altogether.
Tyranitar has been good since its inception. Doesn't make sense to have it separated from the rest of the top when virtually all of those mons got upgrades through the gens as well.
Misdreavus and especially Houndoom were solid at its inception (though admittedly Misdreavus in particular has fallen off), and Jumpluff has had niche competitive uses over the years.
While it is really good in GSC for a few reasons Tyranitar would've fallen off like a rock without free weather. It's a pseudo so I simply demand more from it than "unnerve tyranitar would be RUBL in BW" or "in VGC'15 Tyranitar was a sometimes used as a counter against [popular Mon]".
Shuckle is complete dogshit but Sticky Web is probably the single best move in the game in a vacuum (at least in 6v6). So I guess you're right but also every Shuckle team is playing 5v6, so I don't even fricking know.
>Tyranitar would've fallen off like a rock without free weather.
Sure, but you could say the same thing about Skarmory without Roost, Scizor without Technician (which actually did happen), Hitmontop without Intimidate, and many others on your list. Ttar would've aged far better than Quagsire if later buffs were null, so Ttar should be at the top with the rest.
Most pokemon do get something every generation to keep up with the general power creep to extend their shelf life. Big buffs like getting Roost or Dragon Dance or whatever do happen. I just consider F R E E weather an extremely massive buff that is much more impactful than getting an actual evolution.
I think pseudos should have a shelf life longer than 1 generation and I think GF realized that too which is why they gave Tyranitar the probably biggest buff an already "good pokemon" got between generations.
Maybe it could be in the first tier but goddamn did they have to immediately buff it by A LOT so ehh...
You can shift quite a few pokemon around a bit but you'll still end up with half of the dex in the goddamn shitter.
you could say that about pretty much any pokemon. Nearly every viable pokemon could become shitmons if their strongest aspect was was removed from them,
move octillery to busted ability with moody. also jumpluff is fine, it's really annoying in doubles. i don't see how you help bellossom without making it too good, because it's a pure grass quiver dancer. the rest in help them i agree with. even fairy typing couldn't save granbull.
>i don't see how you help bellossom without making it too good
give it earth power or fiery dance. the latter is a signature move, but would be thematic.
Only thing Jumpluff needs is Wind Ride instead of Leafguard
> they've spent over 2 decades trying to salvage most of the dex
More like they spent the last two decades giving KANTOOOOOOOOOOOO and Hoeen broken buffs while o it a handle of Gen2 were allowed to get anything
Magcargo just needs an ability that's similar to well baked body.
Water type attacks increase defense, reduce speed.
Fire type attacks increase speed, reduce defense.
Magby being stronger than like half of the fully-evolved Hoenn mons will never not be funny to me
>Fire/Rock type
>make it slow and defensive
Magcargo could have 540 bst and it would still be a slow piece of shit with two 4x weaknesses.
I mean really a pokemon that is canonically hot as the sun should have 140 sp atk minimum.
Johto dex is still my favorite. Johto pokemon in general are just really cute compared to a lot of other generations.
Sinnoh tried way too hard to be cool, which isnt a bad thing, just not my preference, Unova was so desperate to be different that the dex became quite full of ugly bastards, Gen 3 was pretty good in general and quite well balanced from a design perspective, Gen 1 was very "monstery" which certainly isn't bad, but isnt my preference, Kalos is underrated from a Pokémon design perspective imo, Alola is pretty cute too so it is up there for me, and the latest couple batches of pokemon have been pretty weird to me. I haven't had enough time to play the games as much as I used to so I haven't had enough exposure to their dexes to say much. Johto dex is just really friend shaped to me and I like most of the designs from it.
Here's an actual accurate ranking, t. actually plays the game
>Wobuffett is only broken because of moves and an ability it got in Gen 3
>Lugia is only bad by Uber/GS Cup standards
>Misdreavus itself was good in Gen 2, but had fallen off by Gen 4 and Mismagius was not enough to save it
>I put '5+' as later gens, but Scizor actually got its new Ability in Gen 4
>Hitmontop is outclassed by Incelroar in the most recent Gens, it's only really good in 4-6
>Jumpluff is extremely good in VGC formats that allow Groudon (and probably Koraidon, guess we'll see next year), but is very substandard otherwise
>Togetic isn't the worst thing ever with Fairy type and Eviolite, but at this point Togekiss already exists so just use that
>Ampharos is fine in old gens, but it's super reliant on the mega in newer ones and that seemed more salient
>Sneasel is only bad in the pre-Weavile gens because its stabs are special; the Gen that 'fixed' this also added Weavile so just use that.
>Octillery is a weird case because in later Gens it has access to the Moody ability, which enables an extremely uncompetitive strategy. This is entirely luck-based so I'm not sure if it really counts as making the Pokemon good, and Octillery is also the worst possible user of this strategy anyway. Before and without Moody it is terrible.
I’d move Corsula down to shitmon since being replaced by a regional doesn’t help the original, but overall good list
Probably the closest list ITT. Id be more generous for some of the "Good for many gens, was powercrept", as a good hand full of these are still viable, albeit more niche. Skarmory, for example, fell to UU (which in and of itself is hardly a bad thing, UU is just OU#2), but was still viable as a more physically oriented Corviknight in OU. Blissey's still used on Stall in OU, Umbreon's still good in UU and BSS. Things like Raikou bounce up and down depending on the meta. Doesnt really contradict the tier name though, so I wont count it against you.
Houndoom should be in an Ursaring equivalent, "Fine, but got a mega anyway", as it started off in the first couple of gens as a decent mon.
Oh also to add, just go ahead and toss Octillery in the Shitmon category, for pretty much the reasons you listed. Moody, even in formats where its legal (like VGC or BSS) is still a shit straight as its innately inconsistent, and you really dont want to dedicate a mon to it, and even then, Octillery would never be your choice for it so its outclassed by the one glimmer of hope it had.
Just let the Magma armor be stronger ability already - Negate water attack but slow down and get deffence.
Poor comparison.
Magcargo is notoriously weak, but regardless, BST comparisons are bad.
Shedinja has the lowest total BST out of all fully evolved Pokemon, and while it's not exactly an amazing Pokemon, it's carried by a gimmick.
Also, Ponyta has no standout stats in contrast to the physical bulk of Magcargo. These kinds of things matter more than totals in general.
Too bad Magcargo's high defense means jack shit with extremely common weaknesses, two of them being 4x effective.
Storm Drain Magcargo would be fricking hilarious
Magcargo having high defense is kinda silly
Should be special defense instead