>Late Renaissance setting
>No guns!!!
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>Late Renaissance setting. >No guns!!!
>Late Renaissance setting
>No guns!!!
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PO-TA-TOES
why does the horseman look like he's from the 11th century?
Cause he's Irish. Gallowglass and the like still used old school equipment apparently
Guns are from late middle ages / early reinaissance.
But tbh is stupid to base an entire era on what a poets wrote, no matter how important he were
>Guns Renaissance setting
>No late!!!
pewpwewpew
I find it very stupid how fantasy settings with guns make classes focused on guns and leave them unusable for everyone else.
The whole point is that any idiot can shoot a gun, but in close combat you're better off going for your preferred melee weapon after the first shot.
to be fair it's weird how people will give guns (even if shit damage) a lot of restrictions and maintenance but not for the other weapons or armor...kinda weird
That's because people in general are more familiar with guns than swords, slings and bows. Most people can't be arsed to sharpen their kitchen knives and to them oiling a knife is pure fantasy.
Your sword isn't slicing through any opponent with a modicum of armour, it's a blunt force object at that point. Hyper sharpness is irrelevant.
Yeah, that's moronic, specially when so many RPGs let you make water with magic to frick easily powder.
Just with that and load times you can get some balance between guns and other weapons.
People are like, actually okay with one dude hitting another dude in the head with a two-handed sword and the dude taking the hit with no armour not dying, but if you so much as graze someone with a 22lr or birdshot you've some moron who looked at /k/ before clicking on /hm/ letting their 'tism run wild about how lethal guns are and how they should totally have an AR with a drum mag and depleted uranium rounds so they can cap Elminster, Bigby, Tasha, Mordenkainen, Everard, and Melf.
Magic items should require magic maintainence
It's even weirder how gun gays think this actually happens
>I find it very stupid how fantasy settings with guns make classes focused on guns and leave them unusable for everyone else
do you have any examples of what you mean?
I feel like there are many possible cogs at work here.
>class privilege
>NPCs suck
>mechanic/narrative dissonance
etc
which ones do you think are the problem?
often this is a result of trying to differentiate them from bows (usually the default, basic-ass ranged weapon). like they feel like just making a bow-clone is lame so guns end up with gimmicks like having a reload or jam property.
you guys use classes?
>Any idiot can shoot a gun
Yes. Any idiot can figure out how to shoot a gun.
Now employ it with accuracy, at a moving target, while you are also on the move.
Oh, and it's black powder? Better hope you hit your target or he's coming through that smoke cloud at you. You DID take your bayonet drills seriously, at least- right?
But I like the approach I've used:
Firearms are loud, expensive, and often restricted- even revolvers/lever action rifles produce smoke (see above)- and most supernaturals don't have the same anatomical vulnerabilities that a person does- so a bullet might put them down, but they probably won't stay there if it does- so you have a melee weapon for a reason.
Also- it's raining, so... hope your cased ammo is well-made and not cheap shit.
Well that's why you get a couple of hundred guys to shoot at the same thing you are, that works pretty well.
But I agree with your point of it being a terrible one on one weapon, especially against things that require more than one shot.
I always kinda liked the Bloodborne approach- it's good for just blasting something close enough to hit accurately, but the actual Lord's Work is gonna be done with something that dismembers or otherwise pastes the enemy.
That's a fair approximation, especially for supernatural nasties. A large bulk of the actual killing for the first few hundred years of gunpowder was at the hands of tercio pikes, bayonets, and cavalry sabers.
Currently I'm playing a character in a more industrialized setting- he wears a sort of 'plate' armor, uses a mare's leg, and relies almost primarily on his glaive- because we have a pretty crafty GM. He stuck to the wild west firearms principle- most of them weren't very accurate, despite pop culture painting them as good as modern firearms.
>copying historical era
>instead of creating something new
Cringe.
No setting, historical or imaginary, will ever surpass the 1500-1600s for sheer drip.
>Spam thread
looks like someone is a book keeping gay
Thank you for service book-keeping gay.
Doing God's work anon, look how he reacted.
>"I've been found out"
Thank you book keeping gay I will not bump the thread when I post in this homosexual thread or any others I see like it going forward.
I don't put guns in my games because there isn't a great way to implement them. If they're realistic, they punch through armor and liquidate the target's innards. If they're balanced, they're paintball guns. It's easier to just cut them out and avoid the nightmare.
I was able to play in a campaign with them once, and I outfitted a troop of around 11 peasants with arqiebus' (Arquebi?) For relatively cheap and pissed my teammates off by spending about 30% of the party's income on gunpowder and cheese to fuel the firing squad.
Do you realise that in most games weapons are severely less lethal than in real life? Just swallow the bitter pill and accept that everything is an abstraction. Nobody bothers with simulating the effects of strings getting wet and losing elasticity or snapping mid-fight.
>Just swallow the bitter pill and accept that everything is an abstraction.
When gungays can, I think we can all move on.
I don't think it's even guns that gungays really want - they want to bypass the game and have an easy win. Why fight some jackass in plate armor over multiple rounds when you can just squeeze gat and put a ball through his armour and one shot him? So realistic, and so smart and logical too, am I right?
No that would be the magicgays. Gungays just like the aesthetic.
This really isn't true. While magicgays can be insufferable, your average problem player gungay demands that guns be action movie insta-death machines that are hyper-accurate at extreme ranges and which can be loaded and fired every round because they watched Sharpe
Never had that. Mine were just happy to make their funny private investigator/cowboy concepts without hand crossbows.
Because if you can't kill someone in one round with a sword, you can't kill them in one round with a gun.
Of course you can. Stab someone in the right place or decapitate him and see how he falls like a rock or walk very far.
I think you are mixing reality balance and game balance.
You can easily cut any extremity with an axe, and do more damage than with a bullet to an arm.
But all of that doesn't matter much when you hit against HP pools. You can fit what you describe when HP is lower than the possible damage. If it's less it hurt, but didn't kill.
You can have the pirate's handgun just being a sword with very long range and crazy criticals. Did it hit a vital? massive damage; didn't? normal damage and now it's the other character's turn.
Nope. Outside of first level and crits or extremely specific feat selections, it's very unlikely you'll kill an opponent of the same CR with any weapon in one attack (even the builds that can one-round level-appropriate opposition usually rely on making a full attack (multiple attacks)).
Barring some autistic outliers like GURPS (which does include firearms), the late Renaissance doesn't exist in tabletop roleplay. Its only place is in wargames, and they're always about lines of gunners.
>full plate armor, rapiers, cuirasses, pikes
Anon, it's all renaissance weaponry
Warhammer FRP and D&D includes tech from the 750s to the 1850s in a pastiche setting that has no one historical pinpoint which makes arguing about historical accuracy of anything to be utter moronation of the highest order. I'm so sorry that you're too stupid to see that, but your inability to cope with the truth doesn't stop it from being the truth.
"No one historical pinpoint" is not a disproof to there being the selection of Renaissance equipment mentioned by
. You are moving the goalpost, reflexively, to attempt to force something much easier in every respect than commonplace conceits out of the setting. Even without gunpowder, the energies of almost any player-facing magic are in such vast excess to the essential nature of propellants that it is INCREDIBLY hard to exclude the general manner of cost-efficient propellant, no matter if it's genuine black powder or technically a modified Wand of Mage Hand.
That you mention WFRP demonstrates your ignorance well, as that game DOES have firearms, as the Sigmarite Empire is expressly early-modern in nature with FRICKING CANNON FACTORIES.
Why do you think I said 1850s, you fricking mongoloid? The fact that chainmail is the most common armor in Warhams proves it can't be renaissance regardless of whatever other tech is used. THE PASTICHE IS TOO BROAD FOR IT TO BE ANY ONE THING! That is my point, and you are again so fricking stupid you can't see it.
Those lone breastplates just do not fricking exist without gun-like weaponry provoking them. The full plate and rapiers in the artwork heavily overlap the metallurgy required for flintlocks. Any "fantastical" clockworks make a complete mockery of the wheellock.
The absence of gun-like weapons, leveraging known sources of force to accelerate small objects at high speeds, is extremely conspicuous with the later end of the present equipment, as the required knowledge-base is FAR into devising it as a first-principals engineering challenge.
And there you go seething because you're too locked into your own little world to see the point. Fantasy pastiches are not history so your armchair historian assumptions do not apply.
It's not "armchair historian assumptions". The people who make
are just throwing metal on as they can fit it to cover everything. The people who make the late-Renaissance suits that "Full Plate" in RPGs is based on HAVE TO know finer details of how metal responds to force, because that's the basis of why that armor takes the shape it does, and therefor what novel inventions to pursue to pierce it. Thus, a gun-like weapon, even if by a different operating principal, is an OBSCENELY conspicuous absence that NEEDS to be explained if you have this late-renaissance technical capacity, plus outliers that blow wildly beyond it.
It could be some clockwork abomination putting a monstrously complicated pully assembly under an unnecessarily-complicated mixture of tension and torsion, the use of magic as the initial force the mundane geometry focuses, an alt-propellant that's much more annoying than black powder, or Literally Just Guns, but a very gun-like weapon is inevitable once you have these highly UNDERSTOOD weapons and armor.
I specifically noted that the fantastical clockwork blows past wheellock, as a second example of how RPGs frequently faceplant into the dependencies of firearms. As mentioned above, to make the full-plate shown they have to know the failure modes well enough to look for very gun-like sources of damage to more efficiently deal with it. Anything else is a conspicuous half-assing of people trying to kill eachother. For all I care it could be technomagic arrow heads that function as shaped charges, so long as there's an actual REASON why all this post-firearm shit doesn't have the firearms directly responsible for visible design features.
>you have to have guns and they have to be some homosexual steampunk shit
You don’t actually know much about history do you? It’s so weird you contract the development of different technologies because muh fantasy
>NOOOO you can't just stick with matchlocks and wheellocks and make them just another weapon, you have to whole hog on firearms with make-believe flintlocks! This is a political-historical issue!
BANG.
The party's paladin instantly falls dead. A massive hole has been blown through his enchanted breastplate.
Hundreds of feet away, a lone warrior stands. He wields a weapon of flint, steel, and fire. A pistol.
A terrible truth dawns on your party: the age of the knights and magic is dead, and the world is now in the age of guns and technology. Flintlocks are being mass produced, making all armor and magic useless. Bullets rip through armor from hundreds of feet away. As science advances, the world loses all faith and wonder, making all magic drain from the world.
How does your party survive in this new age of science and rationality, where the greatest of wizards has been reduced to a mundane old coot?
The inaccurate weapon misses.
Even a hit bounces off of magical plate.
stale pasta.
thats a flintlock pistol, it can barely do shit to a decent mundane breastplate less its going to do against a Magic One
now...a cannon on the other side...you better trust that magic armorsmith with your life
you know they made thicker breastplates to can stop 357 magum
I can tell you 2mm and 8mm is very different
>party casts Heat Metal
>party casts healing spell
The party wizard invents a spell.
Take this shield, it will protect you from... urban violence.
There is a good chance this pasta is older than you, homosexual
I quit the campaign, I don’t play in settings that have firearms better than wheellocks
Flintlocks are simple and mass producible, with matchlocks you can add on a frickton of conditions to nerf them and create explosive misfires and wheel locks are rare and expensive
Lets come at this dead horse from a different angle.
If someone wanted to run a renaissance or early modern game where guns would be the primary arm, what would be the best system?
>I don’t play in settings that have firearms better than wheellocks
>Flintlocks are simple and mass producible, with matchlocks you can add on a frickton of conditions to nerf them and create explosive misfires and wheel locks are rare and expensive
I do like this solution to guns. There are matchlocks around and you can get a nice wheellock pistol or even a rifled piece, but they're expensive as hell and borderline individual pieces of art. That's a decent solution for PCs.
Since this didn't happen in my game, I don't care. Sorry you've never had any friends.
>the age of the knights is dead
Not until repeating shot, boyo.
There are guns in my setting, they are slow, clumbersome and innacurate for the skirmishes, gunpowder is better used in Cannons and all kind of Siege equipement where its raw power truly shines, or in pike&shoot formations made by military corps.
However custom made matchlock guns can be made, and special martial training can be learn to use it more efficently on a typical party fight.
What guns have shown up in official d&d products?
Aquebuses? Flintlocks? Matchlocks?
What about in warhammer?
No guns. Only warhammers.
Indian Wars-era revolvers and lever-action rifles.
Matchlock 20s and queen of the stone ages
If a dm doesnt allow me to have this, i will go to the next game
A Mighty Fortress for 2e has a good selection of firearms and cannons.
Yes. It's my game and I'll decide what's allowed. You can leave.
Tunnels & Trolls does what D&Don't
d&does*
I don't get why this is such a big deal. If you want guns, just put them in. If you don't, then don't.
Okay, muskets and pistols are single shot, do 2d6 damage, and require a whole round to reload. Enjoy.
Nah. They function identically to crossbows.
more damage pls
Just Play Shadowrun, you can play a elf and have the guns you.
You DO have the ranged equivalent of Finesse weapons for STRbros in your firearm tables, don't you /tg/? Maintaining your form through powerful recoil or being able to hold larger weaponry steady can just as vital as being dexterous, after all.
Nope. Agility is the baseline rank for ranged weapons. Of course, you can always just buy the Blast power with the Weapons con, and flavor it however you want.
Well that's fine for your system, as long as Strength is the sole melee attribute too.
It's fine regardless. I don't need your approval.
no. in fact, dex handles ALL to-hit rolls, including close combat.
Sounds pretty gay!
Yeah, you do 🙂
Why would you need guns when you have mobile artillery persons (that you can't hit with guns)?
When you can explain that to me I'll stop laughing at you.
I can hit and destroy anything with a gun, no matter what it is. Thanks for the free win.
lol mad
yes you are
nope you are 🙂
You run into a woman, she hasn’t showered in the last year, she has blood dripping down her leg sticky and dried, appears to be originating from her crotch
When quarried, she says yes that just happens once in a fortnight and if you had any food to spare
Makeup hasn’t been invented yet and she’s wrapped in the only textiles she’s owned since she was young
You’re hungry nobody has anything of value to trade, not enough food to go around and adverting means you will likely get mugged and equipment stolen off of you by those exiled from the village for killing
Average life you romanticize
tell me you're American without telling me you're American
>Makeup hasn’t been invented yet
Makeup was invented in like 4000 BC you dingus, and so were perfumes and body hair removal. Ancient Egyptians and Sumerians were doing it. Some of the oldest inventions of humanity were the ones that helped them get laid.
I made a custom class that has evolved through a couple of systems (yeah it's currently 5e, what are you going to do) designed around making firearms their own class that felt more like an esoteric field of magic.
Class progression meant upgrading your own personally tinkered with weapon first and foremost, as well as getting new bullets and explosives. More barrels, better loading mechanisms, scopes and grenade lanuchers and so on. I tried to make sure that the weapons were powerful enough to overtake their weaknesses of expense and tendency to sometimes explode in your face. In setting almost nobody wants the powder around as it's smelly and corrosive.
I also put in a bit of stuff I took both from real life and the Powdermage books: using your powder as a combat drug. It causes damage to you but can give you abilities and resistances and stuff.
I'm still working out some utilities such as rocket boots, grapple launchers and demolition work but I could post what I have if anyone is interested.
>Class progression meant upgrading your own personally tinkered with weapon first and foremost
That's a pretty good system, I think. I was saying above how I like the idea of really early shit guns being fairly commonplace and more sophisticated firearms being available but rare and expensive. Basically doing what Pathfinder did and having any firearms-based character also be a gunsmith is a good solution.
>using your powder as a combat drug
I like that. I like how, IIRC, in those books dudes who snort powder like cocaine just started showing up after black powder was invented.
we've had this thread again and again for an eternity + you've never even played a Renaissance setting
>replicating real life concepts like gunpowder without putting a unique fantasy spin on it, like powder that combusts when moistened, magical metals that require the freezing cold to shape them, or French people who aren't cowards.
>”or French people who aren't cowards” said the anglo fleeing to his island yet again
What's the problem with a setting with guns? 7th Sea is dope and it has cooler magic than a lot of settings without guns.
The problem with guns in any setting is that the people who want to use guns almost always, without fail, want to turn every instance into that scene in Raiders where Indy shoots the sword dude because they think it's still super clever.
My setting doesn't have china
Frankly, those early revolvers are very cool. But it just gotta be some kind of an artifact, expensive and hardly attainable for the players.
>Gun setting!!!
>no renaissance
>mom saiys it's my turn to play as Benvenudo Cellini
I love renaissance games. Having a fantasy world with flintlock weapons is dope as well as the magic being used.
Flintlocks are post-renaissance tech
I know in systems like GURPS guns pretty much trounce everything else once you get past TL4. But what about the opposite? What if I want to recreate Slayers, where outside of the barrier everyone uses guns, but they are weak as shit and no one of importance uses them.
There's a Pyramid article for survivable guns where you just half their damage and give them an armor divisor of 2. You could just do something similar where guns in magical fantasyland have their damage massively reduced, but once you go outside they go back to one-tapping wizards.