Litmus test for a heroic fantasy RPG: what can high-level or high-XP characters do to save a massive city from an earthquake, tsunami, flood, volcanic eruption, or other major natural disaster?
And how much can non-magic-focused characters contribute to crisis relief efforts compared to dedicated magicians? D&D 3.X and Pathfinder 1e handle this in a lopsided manner; martials can do little but twiddle their thumbs, while a divine caster can whip up a 5,000 XP or 25,000 gp Miracle to instantly save the whole city.
Fighting an ancient dragon or a demon lord is one thing, but what about saving lives during a more mundane doomsday? How do high-level or high-XP characters in your heroic fantasy RPG of choice fare in such an exigency? (We will assume that demigod-ish systems like Godbound are already accounted for.)
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high level fighters can inspire people to save one another, and high level magic users can either solidify the ground under the city, or freeze/teleport the water away
That’s a pretty good test. Last year my character stopped a forest fire by smothering it with half a desert. They were a caster, but anyone of similar power level would have been able to pull off the same.
>healers could bring victims back from the brink of death
>shapeshifters could become one with the tsunami and redirect it
>Intrepids could easily solve the disaster (it is a regular Tuesday for them)
Even nobles would be able to avoid the disaster entirely, given a bit of forewarning and infrastructure planning.
>That’s a pretty good test
Nah, it's moronic.
Most games don't care about natural disasters because taking a giant real world problem and using fantasy characters to solve it feels gross. Saying dumb shit like "I punch the tsunami away" is a pretty tone-deaf statement, and you might as well play a group of healers that spend all day magic'ing cancer away.
Hell, leaving natural disasters as the sort of thing above and beyond what characters can "fix" is a pretty good choice, and one that most games tend to follow because they set a nice cap for wish-fulfillment. Kind of like how all of Marvel's Superheroes combined failed to stop 9/11 from happening, because even they're not so tone deaf that they'd go "Oh yeah, nah, we just had some heroes go back ten minutes in time and stop the planes, it's cool." Sure, it's moronic in the Marvel Universe, but that's because the scale of power there is too high and they have no decent way of providing a proper cap.
If you're taking "gay ass tone deaf wish fulfillment" and using it as a Litmus test, frick me, I do not want to see what the rest of your game looks like.
It's not a bad litmus test per se, but it assumes a very high power level of campain. In fact, natural disasters are typically precisely something above power level of even high level characters by design.
While is vastly overcorrecting, especially with how ineptly Marvel handled 9/11, we should remember that the ability to stop natural disasters is typically seen as something way higher than just being able to slay a dragon or topple a tyrant.
No one says that you need to do what Marvel did, but the point is that even Marvel recognized that there's certain limits to wish-fulfillment, and the closer it gets to reality, the more carefully you need to step.
Sure, they handled it even more ineptly than they needed to, but the fact of the matter is that even though there's a hundred super heroes (and villains) who lived less than three blocks away from the towers who could have stopped the attacks, and every rational writer working within the rules of the world and applying its internal logic would not have had the characters simply let the event happen, they still let the thing happen because stopping it would somehow have been even worse.
>bro my 9/11
But it's the question of a historical event being allowed to pass. The natural disasters in OPs post aren't specific historical events, but the general ones.
In fact, the good counter example would be pre 9/11 adventure for Unknown Armies which was about stopping the terrorists from flying a plane into Sears Tower. It's about stopping a terrorist attack, but not THE terrorist attack that defined the start of 21st century.
What's more, the game's verse still threats WTC attack with all seriousness of being a sudden tragedy, with one faction still shocked that they couldn't even try to stop it.
What I'm saying is that stopping a generic disaster is a lower order of wish fulfillment than stopping a historical tragedy.
Definitely, but my point is that even the soggiest, cum-soaked universe of wish-fulfillment has its limit. Marvel needed a real-life terrorist attack to occur in its principle city before they realized they needed some sort of limits, but even they still realized they needed limits.
Look, I get your point, but your dismissal of ability to stop disasters as, quote, "soggiest, cum-soaked" wish-fulfillment is based on both very wrong example, since 9/11 was objectively way easier to stop than natural disasters and completely disjointed from the actual power level present in the story.
>using fantasy characters to solve it feels gross.
No, it doesn’t.
> "I punch the tsunami away" is a pretty tone-deaf statement
No, it isn’t.
If you!d rather have are traded setting, be my guest. But in an explicitly high-powered heroic fantasy setting, “high-powered heroic actions” are a good litmus test.
And 9 11 wasn’t a natural disaster, captcha 0Y GOV J, I am not even kidding
*moronic, not are traded. Sleepyposting, baka
NTA but the litmus test works the wrong way. You tell me I can level up enough to undo 911 or stop a Fukushima nuclear accident equivalent, then I will shove that system aside for a better one. I also would not like to play in a game where a player legitimately thinks that this is fine. There's power fantasy and then there's... Messianic fantasy? Isn't all modern super hero media about how super heroes are creepy and weird, and way to concerned with their godlike powers?
> Messianic fantasy
Elaborate
>modern superhero media
We’re talking heroic fantasy, not supes.
I'd say punching a tsunami moves us out of heroic fantasy and into super hero fantasy. Vis a vis messianic, keep reading:
I am not a big super hero person so I accept I am out of touch. I still think Watchmen is current. But I was thinking Watchmen, Invincible, The Boys, the Snyder Batman movies, and One Punch Man. I don't know though maybe there's been 1000 Marvel movies since last I checked in, I don't watch this shit I just learn about it through osmosis.
In the example of 911 it'd be to undo it through some magical means, not stop the plane, or the political situation that lead to it. Those are obviously far less unreasonable to change than altering a timeline. But morally I think Anon is very correct in assuming that having the means to negate crises on the scale of tsunamis, meteor strikes, famine, etc is tasteless. I don't have strong opinions on it, I'm more concerned about it from a tone and narrative perspective. But carrying on for the sake of argument, let's take 'famine'.
Famine is absolutely horrible, it is usually as a result of improper governing and is the precursor to equally bad things like civil war, plague, and general anarchy. The scale of suffering that famine causes is so immense it might as well be "destroy the world" because if you are caught in it your world might as well end. Wanting to fight the forces that cause famine, whether an evil wizard or an evil corporation, is an easy narrative hook. Wanting to provide for the people affected by it is also a good hook, it is a natural extension of wanting to undo or prevent a famine. But wanting to have the ability to will the famine out of existence? To clap your hands, or rub an obelisk, or cast an arcane spell to just magically un-famine the land... I have two readings on that:
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1. The person in question is so out of touch (read: stupid) that they don't understand the gravity of this ability. Like a child saying they have "everythingproof shield". Power on this scale is world-altering in the truest sense that it will be the moment where a new calendar starts. They don't get this and so to them it is just "cool anti-famine spell", this is tasteless.
2. The person wants a power fantasy where they are equivalent to a god, they can will even a catastrophe that would sink a nation out of existence. This isn't the power to defeat a bad guy, or save the princess, or rule the country. It is the power to choose whether millions live or die in a single moment. That is no longer heroic fantasy, that surely is messianic fantasy. To want to be a messiah, a creature so powerful that it controls the fates of innumerable people. Nothing bad happens to you, nothing bad happens even to the land you stand because you have the power to undo it. That strikes me as fantasy that seeks to nurture a god-complex, not a fantasy that seeks to embolden you to do heroic things. A hero could be as little as helping someone take out the trash, but instead of going for the conventional like fighting a tyrant, or ruling over a fort, it takes it to the logical extreme of "nothing bad happens to me because I am so powerful that even natural catastrophes yield to my awesome might". This, surely, is also tasteless. It is using a world-ending event purely to highlight how awesome their character is.
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Stopping the famine by opposing the evil that will cause it? Sure. Stopping the famine by revitalising the land through some means that takes the character on a journey? Sure. Undoing the famine's effect, or preventing its occurrence, simply by using your own personal resources? That is a fantasy I more associate with serial killers and children than I do with hero narratives. I brought up super heroes because it made me think of Superman, and specifically Doctor Manhattan, and Bruce Wayne; not Odysseus, Jack O'Neill, or Drizzt.
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changing the landscape with personal ability should be the bare minimum starting point of power
Your media illiteracy is showing, I’m afraid. Superhuman heroic feats does not a Superhero (genre) work make.
> Power on this scale is world-altering in the truest sense that it will be the moment where a new calendar starts
This is entirely dependant on context, and betrays a gross lack of nuance in the boundaries of your disbelief. Plonk an anti-famine spell down in ASoIaF, and you’ve changed the world. Do the same thing in, for example, Star Trek, and you haven’t made a scratch. You are naively assuming that because something is true in reality, is has to be true throughout the infinite potential of fantasy. This is an error.
> It is the power to choose whether millions live or die in a single moment
Wow, that’s an incredibly cynical take on the act of saving lives. I like it! I’ll concede this point if you agree that the act of saving any lives at all must be inherently malicious (as it merely prolongs their mortal suffering before inevitable death).
On second thoughts, I won’t. That line of thinking (again) betrays a lack of imagination.
> A hero could be as little as helping someone take out the trash, but instead of going for the conventional like fighting a tyrant, or ruling over a fort, it takes it to the logical extreme of "nothing bad happens to me because I am so powerful that even natural catastrophes yield to my awesome might"
This is a strawman argument.
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My literacy is greater than yours and my interpretation of the work is the correct one, I'm afraid.
Counterpoint: your mum a ho
Regardless, thank you for attempting to share your opinion. As an enjoyer of high-powered heroic fantasy, perhaps I can assuage some of your misgivings; I haven’t yet killed anyone (in real life), and while I might display textbook psychopathic tendencies (probably le ‘tism), I don’t play in the aforementioned genre for the reasons expressed out in your post. Admittedly, you’re bang on with the coolness factor; carving a valley through a mountain with nothing but your sword is certainly an extrapolation of the “larger-than-life” elements of common fantasy. But your strawman paints this as pure powerwankery, to a sadistic level. It really is quite obvious that your predominant exposer to superpowered being is through Moore, and ä you appear to see everything through the lens of a deconstructionist. I am not playing a god-like being to hold power over people: I am playing a god-like being to try to do good. My characters do not choose who lives and dies, they do not choose at all! They simply try their best. They are like the OG superman, paragons to take solace in, as opposed to the jaded cynicism of Dr Manhattan.
And sometimes, many times, my characters fail. They’re not invincible. Hell, half of the time they’re only doing the heroics because no one else can. That’s not the typical litrpg, Sword Art Online jerkfest you’re describing. That’s a big brother fantasy. That’s a dad fantasy. That’s being able to protect the people you love. And that’s why I play.
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Not a strawman, sorry. You lose.
You are nitpicking and biased, I win bye bye
Nah, I win 🙂
>Media illiteracy
>Betrays a gross lack of nuance
>Naively assuming
>Cynical take
>Lack of imagination
>Strawman argument
>It is quite obvious
Yeah, well, I think YOUR arguments stink of the poopoo, you big smelly.
I understand your point now. Still, I think you should have specified it more at start. Your explanation from
about ability to revitalize land through some journey is pretty close to what OP said.
Yeah, this is all very much on the side of the OP's original topic. It definitely isn't the same thing, was just jumping off from what Anon said initially.
Yeah yeah, but you know what I meant, ya pedant.
your opinion is incorrect
NTA, but I kind of want you to elaborate why do you think that power to stop disasters is too much for characters to wield? Especially the 9/11, which could have been stopped at multiple points by completely mundane humans. You keep talking about it with terms of moral wrongness and creepy feelings and I'd like you to elaborate on your perspective, since I'm genuinely curious.
Uh, no? Have you ever read / watched any superhero media at all?
Project more.
It depends. In a truly high-tier game, it seems possible that, given the setting, there could be some force or another the party could petition or call upon that they cannot surmount. Traveling to appease a spirit or a similar powerful force is perfectly suitable for heroic fantasy, particularly if the force itself is truly purely 'natural'; also, if a narrative demands the party to try and mitigate a disaster that they can already prevent or negate with their own merits without requiring, say, a ritual or something, than it is a chore to solve rather than something which can build tension. Anyhow, party faces have the capacity to be leaders of men and garner outside assistance quickly, if given the authority and assets to do so. while high-level martials generally have the capacity to either lead or organize other people in some capacity. Even Krull was capable of having the aptitude to become a leader of men; if a 'martial' in a heroic fantasy setting is simply a very strong brute, that's almost a lost opportunity.
Well yeah they can just cast Gate and then summon an army of angels to save everyone. Or the fighter can attack the flash flood four times a round with his sword.
>while high-level martials generally have the capacity to either lead or organize other people in some capacity.
They don't though, they have zero actual rules that allow them to do that and they're additionally forced by the rules to always be stupid and unlikable ("for balance").
Even if you stick an anti-magic pole up a wizard or sorcerer's ass and strip them of all their magic powers they're still better than a martial, because at least their class is allowed to be smart or charismatic.
The only reason people say things like "martials are good at organizing people" is that GMs feel bad for how worthless they actually are and invent special privileges for them that aren't in the rules. Martials get nothing at all besides the ability to attack monsters for less damage than Disintegrate.
Anon this thread isn't even D&D-specific, don't dump your brainrot on everyone else.
"Not D&D specific" means that you're welcome to bring up another game and no one has a right to complain (but we still have every right to respond as if you were discussing D&D. because this is /tg/).
"Not D&D specific" doesn't mean you get to complain about D&D-related posts. D&D and Pathfinder were the only actual games mentioned in the OP. Don't dump your anti-D&D brainrot on everyone else.
The problem isn’t that you mentioned d&d, the problem is that you’re doing what I’m about to do:
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> they have zero actual rules that allow them to do that
Read. The. Book. A martial-focused character is in no way limited to being solely being useful in combat, no more than a magic-focused character is limited to spellcasting. Even if every single ability you pick is a combat one, the game is designed so that everyone can at least participate in each dedicated system (..barring magic, but that’s the only exception). In most cases if you intend to use the social rep rules, /pick a social ability/. Even just one. It’s really that simple.
> Martials get nothing at all besides the ability to attack monsters
Oh, and casters are so great at that huh? When was the last time you saw someone without a combat ability regularly take on opponents even one tier higher than themselves, and not get completely shredded? Casters get one, maybe two spells that directly interact with combat? Everything else is core shit. They’re utility characters, not focused combatants. The game even suggests that you should view magic as more of an addon to the core, rather than a separate system.
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I have no thoughts on this topic.
Same
Don't make me unleash the wrestler
"non-magic" is not a valid concept for a high level character. if you can't ignore the laws of physics, you're not relevant.
>lopsided
That's a good thing in theory. Preventing earthquakes is a very powerful and specialized ability, being high level shouldn't mean you can do it. Moving thousands of people quickly is a very powerful and specialized ability, being high level shouldn't mean you can do it.
The problem is that high-level martials don't have access to any powerful specialized utility abilities and spellcasters have access to all of them.
>Earthquake
Stone Dragon maneuvers do not explicitly deal with this, but I could see clever application or a Martial Lore, Knowledge (Nature), or Survival check made in tandem with a high-level maneuver working to off-set the worst of the damage by redirecting siesmic waves while wielding techniques specifically designed to deal with negating Hardness and objects/terrain.
>Tsunami
Figure out how much fire damage evaporates how much water, and the scale of your Desert Wind maneuvers can potentially take a the edge off of a big wave of water, or a flood.
>Volcanic Eruption
If you're caught off guard, yeah this'll mess up most martials, but if you give them time to examine the volcano as it's building up, a strike from a number of disciplines could break open release-valve points to bleed off the eruption into a more steady and manageable stream.
That said, the usual method by which people are saved from disasters is usually by getting them out of the way, and a high-level warrior or champion of the people/ hero of the crown could leverage their reputation or status to get people to evacuate swiftly, effectively, or in circumstances when they might otherwise stubbornly hold out to see where the chips (of rock and lava) fall. Likewise, leveraging that same reputation to gain aid for refugees from other nations while offering their strength at arms to help protect survivors or fight for neighboring states/nations/factions so as to buy welfare for those who were displaced might also be worthwhile considerations, particularly if they've taken the Leadership feats for it or have actively been doing PR efforts to build up their namesake in the regions involved.
That said, I could also see an area-denial warrior, many-shot archer, or Flurry To The Max characters using Attacks of Opportunity on a given round to strike out against eruptive fragments as part of a more cinematic event, saving one life per successful attack against the AC of the debris.