There is no coin toss. The best example of it is that Doctor Who episode Heaven Sent. The new guy isn't winning a coin toss because he comes to be after his old self dies. He's effectively a perfect clone.
Your eyes and brain are not a Hollywood camera crew. They don't leave the set and go to another location to start recording the adventures of whoever "won the coin toss" in first person.
the continued discussion is a result of the designers failing to properly utilize the medium and define the rules
one of two things is true, either the player is not the character and the protagonist is copied
or the player IS the character and the protagonist is actually transferred
all confusion comes from the uncertainty created by not explicitly defining which is which, no matter what, the player DOES transfer from one body to the other, but is the player the protagonist? no, there's a disconnect and that strikes me as a missed opportunity to do something interesting with the concept of player vs character
or maybe some higher subtext is going way over my head
THERE IS NO COIN TOSS YOU MISUNDERSTOOD EVERYTHING REEE
There, that's the reply you were hoping for, right? You can go to bed now.
the cointoss is only for the player not the character in universe, thats why they act confused when the copy was made, they were just scanned and nothing else, the copy / clone(player) is then the only one to consider his position relative to the original and think of it as a luck based coin toss
There is no coin toss. If you "lost" and stayed in the perspective of the sleeping one the game would end, as such there is no 50/50. Similarly there was no 50/50 for the dumbass who didn't understand the most basic fricking concept in existence when he saw his own self he was copied from asleep in the chair and discarded by the chick. He can only copy his consciousness , but he's not the copy, he can't be. The copy is another one.
And I fully understand the other argument that the copy "felt" that they won the coin toss of the two of them since they were the copy. But the argument itself is moronic, because of course they'd be the copy, they were copied from the other guy, its like if theirs two positions and ones already filled, of course you'd get the second position, there was no chance of you being the former.
Also it annoyed me how blatantly stupid and childish the protagonist was. Doesn't get basic shit that is easily understood immediately, gets angry and confused he wasn't teleported to the ship, when he's already seen the copy method beforehand, and then spergs out on the chick for not explaining to him when she did and he refused to understand a fricking basic concept explained to him.
It's heavily implied he had pretty severe brain damage from an accident back when he was human. Then he got mega moronic by being a corrupted program put into a nano-machined corpse.
Hey baby, I hear the blues a-callin'
Tossed salads and scrambled eggs
Oh My / Mercy / Quite stylish
And maybe I seem a bit confused
Yeah maybe, but I got you pegged!
Ha, Ha, Ha, Ha-Hah!
But I don't know what to do with those tossed salads and scrambled eggs
They're callin' again
(Scrambled eggs all over my face. What is a boy to do.)
It’s not a mind blowing twist you buffoon. The AI literally explains in the first 5 minutes that you are just a bunch of 1s and 0s and a COPY of a consciousness. She then tells you EVERY time you change bodies that it’s a new copy of the conscious.
Its kinda dumb tbqhfam. I get that the average gaymer wouldn't know before hand, but even when you move a file from one folder to another you're essentially just copying it to the new location and deleting the old one.
But I suppose the whole "digitise your consciousness" as a concept has been done a million times before as some kind of escape from death. I think the only real way out would be if we invented a way to regenerate dying tissue. Then you could stick your brain in a jar and feed it whatever is necessary to keep it running. Even then, at some point all of your original cells would've died and you will eventually Ship of Theseus yourself. But I think we already do that, right?? Your brain from 20yrs ago cannot be the same brain you have rn. So maybe death is just another passing of the cells until an infinite amount of time passes and those cells meet and reform into "your" brain again.
the actual answer is that consciousness isnt a magical skyrim soul, and rather it's a dynamic, complex set of physical reactions happening independently every attosecond and there is no need to worry about continuation because everything we already know about existence is based on a constantly dying and perfectly replicated consciousness interacting with itself on loop
>Simon sits in a chair and dies >Simon Clone turns on and walks around >Not in that order
There is no mechanism by which the Simon in the chair could have become the clone and walked around. Do you think the Simon at the beginning of the game could have coinflipped his way to being the Canadian in Toronto from the past?
are you moronic
it's not a literal transposition of consciousness, it's an exact clone starting its consciousness stream from the moment you pressed the button
Why do people seethe about losing the coin toss? You can just try tossing the coin again. there is no coin toss. Being able to try over and over and fail every time would quickly make you realize that it’s bullshit
So, why did they have to "copy" him? His brain was basically a microchip like Catherines, you dont make a copy of her when you move her to a new omnitool flr example
nah every whatever is the hz of her processor she loses the coinflip : there is no continuity when her brain keeps turning on and off a million times each second
Catherine was in a tool that had a removable chip by design. Simon's body has a head chopped open, his chip shoved in, and a bunch of structure gel all over everything. There was no way to extract his chip without someone doing surgery. Even if he did have a neatly removable chip, who would have done it?
and yes only the final copy makes it to the satellite, all the other copies get stranded or killed
the female consciousness was pretty cold blooded to just let him believe he was going to make it
but he was so stupid I didn't personally feel that bad about it
not cold blooded at all, many of her coworkers killed themselves on the realization, with simon being the last hope for whats left of humankind she couldnt have him kill himself before launching the thing and he can always still kill himself after doing it
If Simon 1 sits in the chair and starts the scan/upload into a new body, I think the correct way to say it is that afterward there is now Simon A and Simon B, and both of them were previously Simon 1. To say "I'm the only one who was REALLY Simon 1 because I'm the one sitting in the chair" is overprivileging the body (Soma) as the measure of identity. And if you say "only Simon A REALLY was Simon 1 and did those things in the past, Simon B just has memories of doing so", how do you get the "really?" Memories and belief about the past are all either of them have at that point. And if you point to the body, i.e. the shell, you're doing the same thing as before.
Holy pseud Batman, the one on the chair was the original, and you are just a copy, the game rapidly takes the perspective of the new copies until the end when you are shown from the perspective of being the one left behind instead of playing as the copy as usual (the ending finally shows that the last copy made it through
Did you know that cutting and pasting data actually copies the original source first, creates a duplicate somewhere else, then deletes the original when that's done?
Did you know that data takes up physical space and isn't just some magical electrical crap floating around on a shiny disk?
I'm not sure what you're getting at, anon. If you try to use the computer copy/paste analogy things get even weirder. We don't talk about "original" data in terms of the physical location in hardware (i.e. we don't talk about the physical 'body' of the data as having importance for 'originalness'), and if we're talking data like a string of digits the concept of identity no longer applies. Or rather every instance is identical. "010100101101110" and "010100101101110" are the same information and can only be labeled arbitrarily, it makes no sense to say "that's the ORIGINAL 010100101101110" if we're just talking about the information.
computer data has unique signifiers regardless of copied and pasted data that is 'the same'. If a class is instantiating objects for example multiple 'cloned' objects would be differentiated by unique reference IDs.
>It's just a duplicate.
This. This coin toss shit is so moronic who the hell even came up with it.
It's literally just a file copy/paste of your entire personality.
>It's just a duplicate.
This. This coin toss shit is so moronic who the hell even came up with it.
It's literally just a file copy/paste of your entire personality.
i mean its meant to be that way simon is just moronic
Its just a thing Catherine says to tard wrangle simon, the players who actually took it as a serious point are the real morons
The only manner in which one could say there really was a coin toss is between which of the two Simon incarnations was destined to be born originally and which was to be awoken within a computer
But that was a toss that was made when the original was born, not when the copy is made
It absolutely blows my fricking mind that there are people who unironically can't grasp the coin toss concept. These people are literally as dumb as a character who was written to be a moron with brain damage.
Insanity
This is correct. The no-coin-tossers are moronic not because they're wrong about copy/paste, they're brainlets because they are unable comprehend the concept of the coin toss.
The original has a 100% chance of perceiving itself as the original and the copy has a 100% chance of perceiving itself as the copy, because the original is the original and was always the original and the copy is the copy and was always going to be the copy. There is no coin toss at any point.
Imagine there is a meat grinder and a pillow and two people who are the same in every way poof into existence. Once falls into the meat grinder and the other falls onto the pillow? Who won that coin toss?
>but I did eat breakfast this morning
It is conceptually the same, just instead of poofing into existence they both lead the exact same life up until that moment, then one goes on and one does not.
Simon 4 was on the winning side of 3 coin flips. There is no reason why his exitance couldn't have been the other, they are EXACTLY the same up until those moments.
>just instead of poofing into existence they both lead the exact same life up until that moment
No they didn't, the copy didn't exist until the moment of the copying.
You idiot, the copy has the EXACT same memories as the original, the copy IS the original. You are not an outward observer to your own existence.
Simon 4 witnessed himself "swapping" bodies 3 times.
This is so fricking simple to conceptualize, how do you not understand?
8 months ago
Anonymous
Thinking you used to exist in the past is not the same as actually existing in the past. If I plant fake memories in your brain does that mean they actually happened?
8 months ago
Anonymous
Yes, moron.
8 months ago
Anonymous
8 months ago
Anonymous
Consider this. You go to bed and someone scans your brain, kills you, and replaces you with a clone. Your clone wakes up as normal as ever, the clone has no idea what happened and the original you is dead. Who won the coin toss, "you" or the clone (also you)?
8 months ago
Anonymous
>Who won the coin toss, "you" or the clone (also you)?
There was no coin toss. I died and a clone took my place.
8 months ago
Anonymous
that is the coin toss anon, there are 0 reasons why your existence is either the one who dies or the one who goes on. It's complete chance
8 months ago
Anonymous
There is no coin toss. I'm Me 1 and the clone will be Me 2. I was always destined to be Me 1 and the clone was always destined to be Me 2. Even if Me 2 believes it's Me 1 that doesn't mean it is.
8 months ago
Anonymous
There is no such thing as chance or probability. Things just happen.
8 months ago
Anonymous
>Someone takes my memories >Kills me >Puts clone in my bed >Makes it think its me
This is just a new person with my memories.
8 months ago
Anonymous
You are a continuum of memories, whether they are "fake" or not does not matter. Simon 4 is a copy of the original, but his existence meant being born, living his life, getting brain scanned, waking up as a robot, changing bodies, and being uploaded to the ark.
8 months ago
Anonymous
>coin-tossgays believe there are an infinite number of copies of Simons consciousness existing simultaneously in a magical aether realm that always existed and merely entered the physical world at the moment a copy of a computer file is created, and have to compete with each other via a "coin toss" to see which of the infinite copies that always existed becomes real >and then say spazz out that everyone else is moronic except them
8 months ago
Anonymous
> there are an infinite number of copies of Simons consciousness existing simultaneously in a magical aether realm that always existed and merely entered the physical world at the moment a copy of a computer file is created
this is your brain on 50iq reading comprehension and christianity
8 months ago
Anonymous
things nobody said ever for 100
you're either trolling or actually room temp iq
You're the morons who can't comprehend the simple idea that a copy doesn't exist until after it gets created. >but the copy THINKS it existed that means it DID exist!
Believing =/= reality, something you clearly struggle to cope with every day.
8 months ago
Anonymous
i dont like the way you're speaking to them. stop
8 months ago
Anonymous
>Someone takes my memories >Kills me >Puts clone in my bed >Makes it think its me
This is just a new person with my memories.
Explain to me what the difference between you and an exact, perfect copy of you is?
There is no coin toss. I'm Me 1 and the clone will be Me 2. I was always destined to be Me 1 and the clone was always destined to be Me 2. Even if Me 2 believes it's Me 1 that doesn't mean it is.
Me 2 is Me 1
8 months ago
Anonymous
Every single being in the universe is a separate, different entity. Not even two identical twins are the same being. Why would this hypothetical clone be exactly the same as the original?
8 months ago
Anonymous
>Every single being in the universe is a separate, different entity.
8 months ago
Anonymous
These people are pure materialists. They think that if another brain is a perfect copy of their brain, then they're the same person. Not worth arguing with, they do not possess true consciousness. May as well argue with a bird.
8 months ago
Anonymous
This guy is literally using materialist logic
>Explain to me what the difference between you and an exact, perfect copy of you is?
I was born to my mother, I had a fairly uneventful life and at some point had my brain scanned.
The perfect clone is a person created via artificial means with its empty mind filled with things it never experienced but its something it perceives as things it experienced, it thinks its me when its just a new person having been brainwashed into believing it had a whole life of its own.
8 months ago
Anonymous
>Explain to me what the difference between you and an exact, perfect copy of you is?
I was born to my mother, I had a fairly uneventful life and at some point had my brain scanned.
The perfect clone is a person created via artificial means with its empty mind filled with things it never experienced but its something it perceives as things it experienced, it thinks its me when its just a new person having been brainwashed into believing it had a whole life of its own.
I slit your throat. I upload a copy of your brainscan into a new clone, several years later. Is that you?
8 months ago
Anonymous
No its just some guy who thinks its me.
8 months ago
Anonymous
Correct.
you just slit a homie's throat and forgot to scan his brain before doing so
Not my problem.
8 months ago
Anonymous
you just slit a homie's throat and forgot to scan his brain before doing so
8 months ago
Anonymous
At the exact moment of the brain scan, YES. Continued existence after that fact is what makes the clone a new me, a coin toss winner. My existence was exactly the same in every conceivable way, up until one moment.
8 months ago
Anonymous
You and the perfect clone are alive in the same room, at the same time. Which one is you?
8 months ago
Anonymous
neither
8 months ago
Anonymous
you are the real one, but from your perspective and the clone's, there is no way to confirm who that title belongs to
8 months ago
Anonymous
Sure, the world can't tell the difference between you, because they are a perfect clone. And regardless of their perspective, they might think they're you, but YOU still know you're YOU.
8 months ago
Anonymous
What if I ate something before being clone, what if the clones not wearing the same clothing or standing in the same place as I and it remember before cloning?
All kinds of possibilities and they all end up with me + a meat puppet with fake memories.
8 months ago
Anonymous
if there is evidence for the clone to understand that they're the clone, they will be like "okay i guess i just came into existence objectively despite perceiving being the original up until a few seconds ago", and the original will be like "damn straight"
8 months ago
Anonymous
But then we run into problems like the clone having moments of >Oh wait those are not my parents even though I have these strong feelings torwards them >Oh thats not the love of my life despite being willing to give my life for her >Oh thats not my dog despite being willing to kill for its well being >Oh thats not my house or my collections or stuff and things I remember working to own and gather over the yeares >Oh I have literally nothing and need to come to terms everything I remember is a lie
They will not be happy about any of this.
8 months ago
Anonymous
which is again following a new person who lost the coin toss. why are you obsessed with what happens afterward again
8 months ago
Anonymous
>which is again following a new person who lost the coin toss.
Theres me and then theres this new person who is made to think its me, what is a coin toss in this scenario?
8 months ago
Anonymous
the coin toss is your personal perception of who ends up where. You win if you end up in the body you want, and you lose if you end up in the body you don't want.
Soma flip flops between perspectives of Simon losing the coin toss and winning it multiple times. He loses the coin toss in the beginning when his original brain scan is transplanted into a robot thousand years in the future, and then the game's perspective follows the winning Simon perspective until the end when it switches to a newly losing Simon (when the arc blasts off leaving the loser behind.)
8 months ago
Anonymous
>the coin toss is your personal perception of who ends up where.
That will never change, you remain you and the clone will wake up thinking its me, its the same as some random guy being surgically made to look like me and getting hypnotized to think and remember things exactly as I did, theres no magical concinousness swap involved. >You win if you end up in the body you want, and you lose if you end up in the body you don't want
Theres no body swap, this is like thinking if I make a copy of a file then I got File and Fil(1) and once I put File(1) into a new computer File might randomly get placed there instead. >Soma flip flops between perspectives of Simon losing the coin toss and winning it multiple times
No it just changes to the perspectice of the new clone while the old clones get left behind >He loses the coin toss in the beginning when his original brain scan is transplanted into a robot thousand years in the future, and then the game's perspective follows the winning Simon perspective until the end when it switches to a newly losing Simon (when the arc blasts off leaving the loser behind.)
OG Simon somehow having a chance to turn into his clone in the future is moronic, how do you come to a conclusion like that?
8 months ago
Anonymous
>That will never change, you remain you and the clone will wake up thinking its me, its the same as some random guy being surgically made to look like me and getting hypnotized to think and remember things exactly as I did, theres no magical concinousness swap involved.
never said it was a literal consciousness swap >No it just changes to the perspective of the new clone while the old clones get left behind
this is exactly what i said just rephrased >OG Simon somehow having a chance to turn into his clone in the future is moronic, how do you come to a conclusion like that?
i dont even understand what you're criticizing here, the game itself makes this point. OG simon consents to the brain scan, and then the clone wakes up immediately a billion years in the future thinking he's OG simon until told otherwise. There is nothing to argue here, that's literally what happened in the game
8 months ago
Anonymous
>i dont even understand what you're criticizing here, the game itself makes this point. OG simon consents to the brain scan, and then the clone wakes up immediately a billion years in the future thinking he's OG simon until told otherwise. There is nothing to argue here, that's literally what happened in the game
The game literally doesnt, its all a massive copy by a clone who thinks its not going to be left behind when a new clone is made.
>That will never change, you remain you and the clone will wake up thinking its me, its the same as some random guy being surgically made to look like me and getting hypnotized to think and remember things exactly as I did, theres no magical concinousness swap involved.
Nobody is claiming there is a swap. Robot-Simon and Deep-Sea-Simon are both sitting in the same chair about to be uploaded to the Deep-Sea Body, but only Deep-Sea-Simon experiences the upload. Up until that exact moment, there is no way to know which one will move on. That is the coin toss.
>Nobody is claiming there is a swap. Robot-Simon and Deep-Sea-Simon are both sitting in the same chair about to be uploaded to the Deep-Sea Body, but only Deep-Sea-Simon experiences the upload. Up until that exact moment, there is no way to know which one will move on. That is the coin toss.
Half the thread is claiming theres a swap, your the outlier who thinks theres some weird double Simon thing going on when its all just 1(1) getting copied and a copy swaggering along as 1(2).
8 months ago
Anonymous
>a massive copy
cope
8 months ago
Anonymous
A copy is a copy.
8 months ago
Anonymous
>Half the thread is claiming theres a swap, your the outlier who thinks theres some weird double Simon thing going on when its all just 1(1) getting copied and a copy swaggering along as 1(2).
Did deep sea simon experience being uploaded to the suit? yes or no
8 months ago
Anonymous
>Did deep sea simon experience being uploaded to the suit? yes or no
Does a copy of a file not contain the same things contained in the first file at the moment of it being copied? Yes. Does that make it the original copy? No,
8 months ago
Anonymous
You are glossing over the point every time to make a strawman.
8 months ago
Anonymous
What strawman, we play as a bunch robots acting upon files uploaded to them, end of story.
8 months ago
Anonymous
Whether simon is a copy is entirely irrelevant. But if that framing helps you understand better than we can use it.
RoboSimon experiences sitting in the chair and going unconscious.
DeepSeaSimon experiences sitting in the chair and waking up in a new body. He is a copy, no fricking shit, but his experience was the exact same up until that point. At that moment everything was the same? Why is his existence the one that continues?
Don't you get it? Why is your existence the one you got? Why aren't you someone else?
Forget Simon, everyone has a cointoss. We all start off at the same moment of nothingness and then come into being. It's by cosmic chance that you are some something rather than nothing at all.
8 months ago
Anonymous
>It's by cosmic chance that you are some something rather than nothing at all.
Maybe, but that's completely irrelevant.
8 months ago
Anonymous
no, that is the point entirely, that is the cointoss
8 months ago
Anonymous
>DeepSeaSimon experiences sitting in the chair
No he didn't, because he didn't exist until RoboSimon pressed the button to create a new copy of his mind inside the DeepSeaBody.
Things don't exist before they exist.
8 months ago
Anonymous
>Whether simon is a copy is entirely irrelevant.
Its what the whole game reloves around you silly frick >RoboSimon experiences sitting in the chair and going unconscious.DeepSeaSimon experiences sitting in the chair and waking up in a new body. He is a copy, no fricking shit, but his experience was the exact same up until that point. At that moment everything was the same?
Why is his existence the one that continues?
Because the copy exists to percieve things and it continues to percieve things as long as it exists? >Don't you get it? Why is your existence the one you got? Why aren't you someone else?
Because I am me and the copy is a copy, easy peasy. >Forget Simon, everyone has a cointoss. We all start off at the same moment of nothingness and then come into being. It's by cosmic chance that you are some something rather than nothing at all.
Well yeah theres so many different sperm cells dying and being made that its highly unlikely to even begin predicting which one gets to chance to become a human and when. The mind scan copies however just exist as is, copies, the real coinflip is if their made or not. You remain you, copy is a copy, theres now another instance of your memories bouncing around in another entitis head. I dont understand what magic is at play here to somehow make it anymore difficult than that.
Deap Sea Simon inherited the continuum of the Simon before him. From his perspective, his consciousness, he existed. He sat in the chair and then saw his old body from across the room. Stop making this dumb materialistic argument. Consciousness isn't material.
8 months ago
Anonymous
>Consciousness isn't material.
Ahaa now we are getting into the heart of this condumdrum.
Do you think souls exists? Do you believe in the supernatural? Is magic real?
8 months ago
Anonymous
no
8 months ago
Anonymous
Then what the frick is conciousness if not material?
8 months ago
Anonymous
Just because what makes consciousness is material doesn't make consciousness itself material.
He is a copy and his consciousnesses did not exist until the prior Simon pressed a button to synthesize him into existence.
That's how copying works.
Again, nobody is claiming that he isn't a copy. Ark Simon, from his perspective, live the exact same life as the Simon's before him up until the exact moment of divergence (coin toss moments). From his perspective he came out on the winning side, every time.
8 months ago
Anonymous
And Ark Simons perspective is FAKE. He thinks he lived the same life as the previous Simons but that's because he was spawned into existence with a FAKE set of memories, and only started experiencing existence for real after he, you know, started existing.
Ark Simon never "came out" on the robot body, or the deep sea body.
8 months ago
Anonymous
see
bro, you just keep screaming >hes a copy hes a copy hes a copy
while theses concepts of consciousness and existence fly over your head
then see
[...]
the cointoss is only for the player not the character in universe, thats why they act confused when the copy was made, they were just scanned and nothing else, the copy / clone(player) is then the only one to consider his position relative to the original and think of it as a luck based coin toss
8 months ago
Anonymous
The crux of this argument hinges on the fact that you are too fundamentally stupid to understand that your perspective is not reality, a common mental deficiency of NPCs.
To that end, arguing with your is fundamentally impossible because like someone else said before, it's like I'm trying to explain color to a blind person. You're trying to argue that things exist before they exist because they can believe they existed and that simply believing something is true means it magically is true.
You ARE Simon. You are a moron who has to invent nonsensical scenarios in your head that make sense (to you) because you can't understand what's actually happening, even as it's spelled out letter for letter right in front of your face.
8 months ago
Anonymous
yes. to all of those questions. Humans define "supernatural" as things we don't understand yet. Lightning and burning gas vents were supernatural events before we figured them out.
8 months ago
Anonymous
>From his perspective, his consciousness, he existed
Yeah, but in reality, he didn't. He poofed into existence in a single moment with a set of fake memories copied from the Simon before him that made him think he existed before, but he didn't. Thinking you existed doesn't mean you did.
I could smack you in the head with a bat and make you hallucinate fake memories of existing 500 years before you were actually born, that doesn't mean you actually did. Although I do strongly suspect you actually did get struck in the head by a heavy object at some point in your life.
8 months ago
Anonymous
bro, you just keep screaming >hes a copy hes a copy hes a copy
while theses concepts of consciousness and existence fly over your head
8 months ago
Anonymous
He is a copy and his consciousnesses did not exist until the prior Simon pressed a button to synthesize him into existence.
That's how copying works.
8 months ago
Anonymous
>Whether simon is a copy is entirely irrelevant.
Its what the whole game reloves around you silly frick >RoboSimon experiences sitting in the chair and going unconscious.DeepSeaSimon experiences sitting in the chair and waking up in a new body. He is a copy, no fricking shit, but his experience was the exact same up until that point. At that moment everything was the same?
Why is his existence the one that continues?
Because the copy exists to percieve things and it continues to percieve things as long as it exists? >Don't you get it? Why is your existence the one you got? Why aren't you someone else?
Because I am me and the copy is a copy, easy peasy. >Forget Simon, everyone has a cointoss. We all start off at the same moment of nothingness and then come into being. It's by cosmic chance that you are some something rather than nothing at all.
Well yeah theres so many different sperm cells dying and being made that its highly unlikely to even begin predicting which one gets to chance to become a human and when. The mind scan copies however just exist as is, copies, the real coinflip is if their made or not. You remain you, copy is a copy, theres now another instance of your memories bouncing around in another entitis head. I dont understand what magic is at play here to somehow make it anymore difficult than that.
8 months ago
Anonymous
>That will never change, you remain you and the clone will wake up thinking its me, its the same as some random guy being surgically made to look like me and getting hypnotized to think and remember things exactly as I did, theres no magical concinousness swap involved.
Nobody is claiming there is a swap. Robot-Simon and Deep-Sea-Simon are both sitting in the same chair about to be uploaded to the Deep-Sea Body, but only Deep-Sea-Simon experiences the upload. Up until that exact moment, there is no way to know which one will move on. That is the coin toss.
8 months ago
Anonymous
You can't actually be this dumb can you? You're just OP baiting to keep the thread going because you find the arguments funny, right?
8 months ago
Anonymous
What part don't you get?
8 months ago
Anonymous
Why I ever got suckered into falling for your bait to begin with, OP.
8 months ago
Anonymous
take your meds, dummy
8 months ago
Anonymous
One of them, but at some point there was a divergence in our existential continuum. We are the same up until that moment. We both experience stepping into a clone vat, and then walking out. Without outside observers there would be no way of telling which was the original.
8 months ago
Anonymous
>transferred
If that is your take away you need work on your reading comprehension and try again
There is no need to tell which was the original or the clone - there cannot be a premise where the original and the clone are not designated.
8 months ago
Anonymous
You are merely an continuum of memories. If the continuums is the same you are the same
8 months ago
Anonymous
then, in the same room with your perfect clone, you would be both people.
8 months ago
Anonymous
To set up your (moronic) thought experiment, you must already designate an original and a clone and then try to materialistically equivocate the two as much as you possibly can. It will always fail and always be moronic because the premise is flawed from the outset. Trying to operate under pure materialism (even memories) is flawed. Things that are by all appearances identical still end up being fundamentally different, but also, if your hypothetical, perfect clone only exists inside an impossible set of parameters - it effectively doesn't exist.
8 months ago
Anonymous
I'm remembering now that Western philosophers already solved this stupid shit when they blew out rationalists who thought being and existence was just experience.
8 months ago
Anonymous
>Which one is you?
neither
if you play around with the idea of your own consciousness popping in and out of existence constantly you probably died and got reconstructed hundreds of time while browsing this thread alone : you're only you when you think you're you, and then you die
8 months ago
Anonymous
I never realized there were people that were actually serious about consciousness getting transferred in hypothetical clonings. The argument that every time we sleep and wake up, we are a new "clone" with all the memories of our previous selves would have more merit, and I guess people who die in their sleep are people who lose this moronic coin toss concept?
>Why would this hypothetical clone be exactly the same as the original?
BECAUSE THEY FRICKING ARE. Simon 4 shared the exact same existence with simon 1 at brain scan, simon 2 at deep sea swap, and simon 3 at ark upload.
How can you not grasp the most simple concepts of your perception of existence. Read a fricking epistemology book or something holy shit.
Explain it in your own words without circular logic like, "Because it just is, okay!!!" But also, induction, probability, and chance are inherently not based on logic, but on custom or previous experiences - they don't actually predict the future one way or the other. So even granting you that there's some transference of consciousness, there is no "coin toss" involved. Things just happen.
8 months ago
Anonymous
>transferred
If that is your take away you need work on your reading comprehension and try again
8 months ago
Anonymous
>Why would this hypothetical clone be exactly the same as the original?
BECAUSE THEY FRICKING ARE. Simon 4 shared the exact same existence with simon 1 at brain scan, simon 2 at deep sea swap, and simon 3 at ark upload.
How can you not grasp the most simple concepts of your perception of existence. Read a fricking epistemology book or something holy shit.
8 months ago
Anonymous
Holy shit, another brainlet that ''thinks'' he is smart
8 months ago
Anonymous
There isn't a difference to the world.
There is a difference as you are now dead.
8 months ago
Anonymous
>Explain to me what the difference between you and an exact, perfect copy of you is?
I was born to my mother, I had a fairly uneventful life and at some point had my brain scanned.
The perfect clone is a person created via artificial means with its empty mind filled with things it never experienced but its something it perceives as things it experienced, it thinks its me when its just a new person having been brainwashed into believing it had a whole life of its own.
8 months ago
Anonymous
things nobody said ever for 100
you're either trolling or actually room temp iq
>that's a completely different hypothetical
it's not
replace poofing with being born, and replace falling into a grinder with being uploaded to the ark. It's the fricking same
then, in the same room with your perfect clone, you would be both people.
No, the continuum has diverged at that point, you are no longer the same people, you where, but now are not
8 months ago
Anonymous
>No, the continuum has diverged at that point, you are no longer the same people, you where, but now are not
Okay, so if I made a clone of you and then killed you immediately, is that clone (you)?
can you elaborate on what the copy would perceive that would make them instinctively understand that they're the copy? That they woke up on the other side of the room? They would still have memories of doing everything up to that point before the brain scan
>and two people who are the same in every way poof into existence.
That is not what happens in the game.
>just instead of poofing into existence they both lead the exact same life up until that moment
No they didn't, the copy didn't exist until the moment of the copying.
Thinking you used to exist in the past is not the same as actually existing in the past. If I plant fake memories in your brain does that mean they actually happened?
starting to think this anon might be moronic,
anyway, yes anon, to you, those events actually happened. if osama bin laden's memories were scanned and uploaded into previously empty human brain, that new brain would think they're osama because they have all those experiences and thoughts, even though they didn't actually happen to that brain. That isn't "the original" osama in their body, and now there are effectively two osama souls in reality. The dead one, and the new one with the memories of the old one feeling like they're the same person
No, there wouldn't be two Osamas. There's be Osama and Osama-1 (empty brain with Osama memories and structure).
We do not fully understand what consciousness and perspective is.
We don't know why you have your conscious perspective and I have mine.
We don't know why our conscious perspective is never interrupted or never changes to something else.
All we know is that it has something to do with the brain as any and all other organs can be damaged and we don't lose our conscious perspective. But we don't know how it works or why. We don't know how consciousness works in two instances because no two human brains host the same perspective.
For example, lets say we knew exactly how our brains create or maintain or host our conscious perspective and you were able to simulate it on a computer 1:1. And lets assume it isn't something unique to our brains being a flesh computer.
What does the person experience? You have two choices:
1. Shared instance - The person experiences two conscious perspective for the the first time. One of their own mind and one from the simulated one. Kinda like seeing double vision out of two different pairs of eyes. This means consciousness can be transferred.
2. Local Instance - You now have two fully sentient and conscious instances of the same person. Their mind and memories are 100% the same. Better than SOMA's android with human memories and mimicking behavior.
In neither instance is there a coin flip. In the first, you'd see both perspectives until the old body was "disabled". In the second, you will always be you.
>the universe is deterministic >nothing is a coin toss >we still use "coin toss" to refer to events we can't predict reliably >simon is moronic and can't predict what will happen in these instances >there is a coin toss
Recent cartoons having people die and then insist the flesh puppet with implanted memories is totally the same as the orignal persons "self" or "soul" is now transfered into a new body is such a weird thing. Like do they not understand they just killed off a character and have a homonculus walking around pretending to be them?
Also her wife deleted a photo on instagram with another guy, they were both smiling and the man (blond just like quin) was holding one of the sheeps, so quin is actually a cuck?
He is getting old and tired, he is not old Quin that can handle some banter, he bans everyone that goes against him, on games he is just regressing each new game, come on, on PoE he only got 2 out of 4 voidstones this league, he never really killed 7 uber bosses on SSF and in D4 he was not able to kill Uber Lilith.
The idea of the "coin toss" is pure cope. it doesn't happen. If you make a copy of yourself, then you made a copy, you're still you. You don't magically get transported into the body and consciousness of your copy.
>uh coin toss real, you're the exact same person because memories
Would you let a clone of you frick your girlfriend? You're literally the same person, right?
it does, but none of the discussions about what a coin flip is pertain to long term personality differences that stem from the original and clone continuing to exist and develop as people.
That's convenient. But okay, even if we held you and your so-called perfect clone in perfect stasis from the very moment of your inceptions, there still is no transference of consciousness, there still is no actual perfectness - you two differ if only by occupying two non-contiguous spaces.
There is no issue. From the copies perspective it just feels like they were always the original. Catherine didn't give a frick and needed something to motivate the brain damaged very desperate midwit to keep going. Simon is in shock the entire time.
I thought by coin toss they meant that you were """tossing a coin""" to see if you were the new copy of the guy from before, since all of the robots/androids/whatever seem to be some kind of conscious.
Like Simon thought it was transferring his consciousness, but it was just making a copy and the person that copy was made from was still just himself in his old body. And the "coin toss" was if the new Simon was just remembering his actions before the copy was made.
I didn't know by "Coin toss" you guys were shit posting and saying that there was a 50/50 that your consciousness would actually be transferred.
That's fricking moronic because that's not a coin toss. Whether you perceive yourself as the original, or perceive yourself as having switched bodies, depends entirely on your personal understanding of the Teleporter Problem and the philosophies which you develop as a result of that understanding.
It isn't chance based in any way, ergo, it cannot be a coin toss.
Am I the only one who finds the arc to be a pointless continuation of humanity?
A bunch of simulated consciousness on a hard drive floating through space unable to interact with the material world or progress in any meaningful way seems pretty hellish. Also it will most certainly be hit by space debris or have the components rot out eventually, so it's a finite thing in general
I think it was meant to be more of a mausoleum than an actual continuation. The hope was that maybe there was other life out there and one day that they would come across the ark and see that humanity did exist.
you can make the exact same argument about your existence right now.
To set up your (moronic) thought experiment, you must already designate an original and a clone and then try to materialistically equivocate the two as much as you possibly can. It will always fail and always be moronic because the premise is flawed from the outset. Trying to operate under pure materialism (even memories) is flawed. Things that are by all appearances identical still end up being fundamentally different, but also, if your hypothetical, perfect clone only exists inside an impossible set of parameters - it effectively doesn't exist.
>To set up your (moronic) thought experiment, you must already designate an original and a clone and then try to materialistically equivocate the two as much as you possibly can
no, that's your materialist argument.
>No, the continuum has diverged at that point, you are no longer the same people, you where, but now are not
Okay, so if I made a clone of you and then killed you immediately, is that clone (you)?
I don't know how many times I have to say that you and any number of copies of you are the same up until a divergence of the continuum
And yet you are the one who keeps trying to equivocate the two materialistically by saying they share the same memories or experiences. That you keep trying to equivocate the two at all means that they are originally different. Memories and experiences are materialistic, and sharing them does not equivocate two beings, in part because memories and experiences are fundamentally flawed and don't actually tell us anything. Rain falling when there are rain clouds does not actually logically follow, we are simply accustomed to expecting rain to fall, like dogs being trained with a clicker. We know what a perfect circle is but we have never experienced one. Our being and existence is separate from our memories or experience.
My argument is solely based on consciousness, aka, the furthest thing from materialism you can get. Your the one hung up on literal material differences.
Am I the only one who finds the arc to be a pointless continuation of humanity?
A bunch of simulated consciousness on a hard drive floating through space unable to interact with the material world or progress in any meaningful way seems pretty hellish. Also it will most certainly be hit by space debris or have the components rot out eventually, so it's a finite thing in general
The ark is absolutely fricked, especially since it's probably infected with the same thing that's fricking the undersea base. All those "people" will be eternally trapped in a simulation controlled by an evil "god"
You are moronic.
The WAU is not "evil" nor would it give any frick about a box of simulated humans, even if it somehow had "infected" the arc. Which there are no indications it did
>there are no indications that it infected the arc
Simon was infected with it, and he handled the Arc. Case closed.
>The WAU is not "evil"
Yeah yeah, it's not strictly "evil" by the human definition, but it sees absolutely no value in organic life, and freely experiments on them however it wishes to fulfill its own goals and curiosity.
It doesnt have any own goals or curiosities
Its only goal is to maintain humanity, it just does it by any means, creating moronic abominations. The WAU doesnt "think", its just a program working in overdrive
>its goal is to maintain humanity
Yes, but it has no idea what humanity actually is. It will create suffering monstrosities out of humans, as long as they're technically "alive", as we see in the game.
8 months ago
Anonymous
Yes. Thats why it, has no work with the arc and wont be some "evil god" for them
8 months ago
Anonymous
You think that being kept alive forever, eventually against your will, while under the complete control of something that doesn't understand what you are is ok?
8 months ago
Anonymous
Sure.
It's still better than the endless nothing, and there are limits as to how insane a person can become.
8 months ago
Anonymous
What the frick are you talking about, moron.
We are talking about the arc. There arent any actual humans on there. Its just code. How do you think the WAU will keep them "alive" forever if its even on the arc somehow
8 months ago
Anonymous
REMEMBER GUYS, the ARC is literally a goldfish bowl for the human consciousness, it has NOTHING going on and people inside don't have higher functions or long term memory.
It quite literally values life as humanity is a part of life, which is must maintain. Honestly the WAU has a better chance of creating and preserving the human race through sheer mutations.
It does not know what humanity is, and is unable to understand it. The game explicitly shows this.
8 months ago
Anonymous
Humanity is the people, it obviously understands that much seeing as every other machine has some kind of memories or consciousness loop going on, you literally go through the game turning some of them off so I don't understand what you're saying it 'explicitly' shows.
8 months ago
Anonymous
The game shows the WAU learning to understand it. Simon 2 is one of the WAU's latest creations.
Sure.
It's still better than the endless nothing, and there are limits as to how insane a person can become.
When I see posts like this, I'm reminded of some modern extremist Buddhists who say shit like "There's only so many souls to go around."
8 months ago
Anonymous
The game shows the WAU learning to understand it. Simon 2 is one of the WAU's latest creations.
when i first played soma, different anon btw, i thought that either a piece of the ark or the ark itself had a drip of structure gel on it falling from the ceiling. i haven't been able to replay soma in a while due to other shit but i've been meaning to go back and check everything related to it we find near the end
everyone's let's play on youtube is not slow enough to capture things at every angle
even if i'm misremembering i don't think it would matter though, the WAU is what controls structure gel, right? wouldn't it need a link to that gel to even make it do what it wanted or is all gel programed so that even if there is no link to the WAU it still tries to follow some form of logic and "fix" stuff
>game unambiguously explains that there was never any kind of "coin toss" involved in absolutely part of the story at any point and that Catherine was just using that as a trick to manipulate Simon because he was a moron >some people still somehow finish the game and their first question is "Ok but how did the coin tosses work though?"
every coin toss denier in this thread is fricking moronic. if you personally did this brain scanning clone bullshit, and now there were two of you, your original self would be vindicated because nothing happened from your perspective, and your clone self would save face and pretend like they just weren't wrong the whole time and be like "YUP IM THE CLONE AND THE ORIGINAL ME IS OVER THERE (nervously gulps)"
You really don't get it. From an existential point of view, there are 0 reasons why your existence couldn't have been the bad one. This is the crux. What part is confusing you? honest question
People are only afraid of the Teleporter Problem because they are infested with spiritual parasites.
Continuation of consciousness doesn't actually matter, idiots. 'Subconsciousness' is cope. You die every time you fall asleep and a new version awakens, and that's perfectly fine.
If a teleporter cloned me somewhere else and incinerated the old version then I would still use it. If it failed to incinerate the old version then I would shoot myself, safe in the knowledge that I still exist in every sense that actually matters.
>If a teleporter cloned me somewhere else and incinerated the old version then I would still use it
You would be a pile of ash, the new "you" is a duplicate that just mimics you very well.
Arbitrary and meaningless.
If the clone bears my memories then it is me, and I am it. I'd say several years would have to pass before value drift occurs to such a degree that I would no longer be able to perceive the clone as myself, but that's a very rough estimate and largely doesn't matter anyway because there can't be two of me at once, NOT because of any problems with self-identity, but because my resources are finite and cannot really support two bodies. Thus, whichever one is in the superior position at the time might as well be the one to continue on.
>You die every time you fall asleep and a new version awakens, and that's perfectly fine.
No, moron. There is no You in the first place. "You" is an abstract perception with no actual, fundamental existence.
the ending is moronic because you can literally shut off your own clone and ask what would happen if you didn't, which is wander around, trapped with whatever energy was left in the suit because it really is just a copy
>And if you're the clone, that really fricking sucks
what
being the clone is always the best case scenario : noone would make a clone which is worse off than the original
the premise of the game is that a clone based on a hundreds-year old brain scan is created by sheer chance that the original simon could have never known about. being a clone in that scenario fricking sucks
original simon died like a month of headaches later
I'd rather have my wacky underwater adventure
the premise of the game is that a clone based on a hundreds-year old brain scan is created by sheer chance that the original simon could have never known about. being a clone in that scenario fricking sucks
>OP makes shitty bait thread >keeps replying to himself intentionally getting it wrong to make people sperg out and correct him >rins and repeat until bump limit
You would think that, but these same arguments happen everywhere, not just on Ganker, but in any discussion of this game. If it was just here and there, I would assume that it was just trolls pretending to believe the coin flip nonsense, but it's everywhere. Some people really believe that shit.
You would think that, but these same arguments happen everywhere, not just on Ganker, but in any discussion of this game. If it was just here and there, I would assume that it was just trolls pretending to believe the coin flip nonsense, but it's everywhere. Some people really believe that shit.
Well you've gotta hand it to the devs, they absolutely nailed making Simons stupidity accurate to how real life stupid people would think and act in that situation.
The downside being they made it so half (or probably about 60%) of their potential audience would never understand their story no matter how it was explained to them.
>they made it so half (or probably about 60%) of their potential audience would never understand their story no matter how it was explained to them
It's like trying to explain color to a blind person.
>It's like trying to explain color to a blind person.
Its more like trying explain color to a person who doesnt believe the fact that colors are a bunch of energy bouncing off of different surfaces into our eyes.
>colors are a bunch of energy bouncing off of different surfaces into our eyes
None of that helps a person understand color, who has never seen it. Sure you can explain the scientific basis of it to them, but that doesn't actually help them understand it or see it.
>It's like trying to explain color to a blind person.
Funny, when I was in elementary school that actually was an assignment my teacher gave our class. Specifically it was "Describe the color red to a blind person".
Even as a 7 year old I immediately realized this assignment was impossible because every term I could possibly describe red with was dependent on some other frame of reference that depended on having sight. I was so confused why they would even give us this question, and even more confused at the way every other kid around me just took out their pencil and started writing stuff like "red is a bright color, red is a warm color".
That was probably the earliest moment in my life when I started to realize most other people weren't truly "people" as I understood myself to be a person. They were something else, something empty, basic and unthinking. NPCs ,as we now know them.
Since the interactive game couldn't teach you, here is a cartoon for children. It even uses biological bodies, instead of robotic as example so it might be a little to tough for you buddy.
>The coin toss refers to a 50/50 chance of your perception making you feel/think that you switched bodies
There is a 0% chance of the original feeling like they switched bodies. You are moronic if you think otherwise.
lol no. Even this weak argument you keep repeating, "at the moment of copying, you are identical" is wrong. Even while a copy is made of you, you are still you.
>"at the moment of copying, you are identical" is wrong
how is it wrong? You haven't been able to explain why.
The original and the copy are the same at that moment.
This doesn't even contradict my statement
The crux of this argument hinges on the fact that you are too fundamentally stupid to understand that your perspective is not reality, a common mental deficiency of NPCs.
To that end, arguing with your is fundamentally impossible because like someone else said before, it's like I'm trying to explain color to a blind person. You're trying to argue that things exist before they exist because they can believe they existed and that simply believing something is true means it magically is true.
You ARE Simon. You are a moron who has to invent nonsensical scenarios in your head that make sense (to you) because you can't understand what's actually happening, even as it's spelled out letter for letter right in front of your face.
lol no. Even this weak argument you keep repeating, "at the moment of copying, you are identical" is wrong. Even while a copy is made of you, you are still you.
What is real then anon? Explain to me how you know this is all real without using your perspective on everything you know. Explain to me how you know with 100% certainty you aren't in a simulation right now.
8 months ago
Anonymous
>What is real then anon?
The fact that you're a moronic suffering from a severe case of dunning-kruger syndrome, that's what's real.
8 months ago
Anonymous
nice dodge.
the ironing is certainly real
8 months ago
Anonymous
I know with 100% certainty that you are a moron who wouldn't be able to breath if your body didn't do it automatically for you.
8 months ago
Anonymous
It's impossible to explain to you, because it's simply beyond your understanding. As said, it's like explaining color to a blind person.
8 months ago
Anonymous
You haven't made an argument outside of your le copy strawman.
8 months ago
Anonymous
There is no argument that can be made that you would possibly understand.
8 months ago
Anonymous
If your position can't be understood, then you don't understand your position either.
8 months ago
Anonymous
Our position is "reality is real" and your position is "NAH MAN WHATEVER I SEE IS REALITY, A SCHIZOPHRENIC MAN LOCKED UP IN AN INSANITY WARD HALLUCINATING THAT HE'S A PIRATE WIZARD FROM SPACE *IS* ACTUALLY THAT BECAUSE HE PERCEIVES IT AND PERCEPTION *IS* REALITY THEREFORE THERE ARE 4 DIFFERENT VERSIONS OF SIMON LIVING INSIDE HIS HEAD AND EVERY TIME A NEW ONE GETS CREATED THEY TOSS A COIN TO SEE WHICH ONE *COMES OUT* ON THE OTHER SIDE BECAUSE THEY ALL EXISTED SIMULTANEOUSLY BECAUSE THEY THINK THEY EXISTED AND THINKING YOU EXISTED EVEN IF YOUR MEMORIES ARE LITERALLY ARTIFICIAL COMPUTER DATA MEANS YOU DID EXIST!".
8 months ago
Anonymous
what do you think consciousness is? what do you think causes the continuity of consciousness?
>The original and the copy are the same at that moment.
Which is irrelevant. Two things that are identical aren't the same thing, they're different identical things. If you sit down in the brain scan chair, you're gonna get up from the brain scan chair. The OTHER "you" across the room getting up from the brain replication chair is gonna THINK he sat down in the brain scan chair, but he didn't.
>Two things that are identical aren't the same thing
It's not two things, it's one thing, Simon's conscious. It then splits into two things at that moment. The copy's conciseness isn't any less "real" than the original's
>The original and the copy are the same at that moment.
There is not a 50/50 chance of the original becoming the copy. There is a 0% chance of the copy being in the original's body. There is no chance at play at all.
[...]
Cogito Ergo Sum
There's no coin toss of Deep Sea Simon becoming Simon in Toronto. Once you understand this, the rest falls into place.
>There is not a 50/50 chance of the original becoming the copy. There is a 0% chance of the copy being in the original's body. There is no chance at play at all.
that isn't the argument for the millionth time
8 months ago
Anonymous
A coin toss is not a 50/50 chance. There is no point at which anything related to chance happens to SImon. This is a very materialistic setting in which things happen to Simon, who lacks agency on all levels.
You haven't explained what you think the coin toss is beyond "Bro, like, how did I get here, man? How am I me?" and the second anyone engages with you on that ground, you immediately revert to "Well actually, their two consciousnesses are split from the same so the copy IS the original."
Please explain what the cointoss is in explicit terms and renounce the Talmud in your answer.
8 months ago
Anonymous
"Bro, like, how did I get here, man? How am I me?"
That is the coin toss anon
Ark Simon experienced life as a human, waking up in the future as a robot, being uploaded to a dead body in a deep sea diving suit, and then being uploaded to the ARK. It makes absolutely no difference at what point he physically or materially came into existence.
8 months ago
Anonymous
The point is that none of them were Simon, they just didn't know it. Simon died long ago.
8 months ago
Anonymous
You argue like a israelite and you didn't renounce the Talmud in your response. I have decided to send money to the Red Crescent, since that's still a legal way to provide material aid to Gaza.
Existentialism is not called "Coin Toss" and Jesus Christ is the Messiah.
8 months ago
Anonymous
>loses the argument >calls the opponent a israelite
i think we know which side won THIS thread guys
8 months ago
Anonymous
This argument never ends. Nobody wins. It goes in circles again and again and again.
8 months ago
Anonymous
>It then splits into two things at that moment
this makes no sense
what happens in this scenario if you make the scan, frick around with the scanned person for 5 minutes, and then do the copy ?
did the consciousness split at the scan or at the copy ?
8 months ago
Anonymous
They would be the same at the moment of the scan. Simon went on and lived his life after his first brain scan, but to his first copy, he had the exact same life experience but instead immediately woke up in Talos
The point is that none of them were Simon, they just didn't know it. Simon died long ago.
Is it your option that if two people who live the exact same life under the exact same circumstances aren't functionally the same? Ignore the fact that there are two of them. They both are 1, 1=1.
Our position is "reality is real" and your position is "NAH MAN WHATEVER I SEE IS REALITY, A SCHIZOPHRENIC MAN LOCKED UP IN AN INSANITY WARD HALLUCINATING THAT HE'S A PIRATE WIZARD FROM SPACE *IS* ACTUALLY THAT BECAUSE HE PERCEIVES IT AND PERCEPTION *IS* REALITY THEREFORE THERE ARE 4 DIFFERENT VERSIONS OF SIMON LIVING INSIDE HIS HEAD AND EVERY TIME A NEW ONE GETS CREATED THEY TOSS A COIN TO SEE WHICH ONE *COMES OUT* ON THE OTHER SIDE BECAUSE THEY ALL EXISTED SIMULTANEOUSLY BECAUSE THEY THINK THEY EXISTED AND THINKING YOU EXISTED EVEN IF YOUR MEMORIES ARE LITERALLY ARTIFICIAL COMPUTER DATA MEANS YOU DID EXIST!".
>reality is real
a tautology, very intelligent anon
8 months ago
Anonymous
>Is it your option that if two people who live the exact same life under the exact same circumstances aren't functionally the same? Ignore the fact that there are two of them. They both are 1, 1=1.
Once again, you define yourself by external perceptions, revealing your lack of an inner reality. Yes, it's true that the world might not be able to tell the difference between them, but they are still different people.
8 months ago
Anonymous
There may be two of them, but they are not different. And if you insist that they are different how?
Saying their different is like saying the one "1" is different from the other "1" solely because there are more than one "1".
>They would be the same at the moment of the scan
but the copy wouldn't exist at the moment of the scan since it wouldn't be "active" until copied on some "hardware"
this implies consciousness and potential consciousness are the same thing to you
No. It makes absolutely no difference when the copy is made, the copy's continuum will always start at the moment of the scan. Time is irrelevant here
>They both are 1, 1=1.
no, anon. one is 1 and the other is 2. for both of them to be 1 they would have had to come into existence at the same time.
See above. They are both 1, but then 1 becomes 1.1 and then 1.2 and so on after the continuum diverges from that exact moment
8 months ago
Anonymous
>There may be two of them, but they are not different. And if you insist that they are different how?
Once again, this argument goes in a circle. How are they different? Well, ask yourself, if there's a copy of you sitting next to you, are you both? No, of course not, you are one of them. The copy is not you, they are their own creature.
8 months ago
Anonymous
yo dumbass
both copies insist they are the real one
8 months ago
Anonymous
who gives a shit
8 months ago
Anonymous
>Well, ask yourself, if there's a copy of you sitting next to you
No, obviously, you would both be have new experiences and a diverged continuum of consciousness. If you woke up next to a clone of yourself, you would both insist that you are the original.
>They are both 1
What determines what number someone is?
Doesn't matter, using a mathematical expression is easy to conceptualize because it excludes all the bullshit of the material world. They can both be 5 if you want.
You argue like a israelite and you didn't renounce the Talmud in your response. I have decided to send money to the Red Crescent, since that's still a legal way to provide material aid to Gaza.
Existentialism is not called "Coin Toss" and Jesus Christ is the Messiah.
>christcucking
well that explains everything. If everything hinges on the existence of the soul than all of this is a non starter
8 months ago
Anonymous
>They are both 1
What determines what number someone is?
8 months ago
Anonymous
>Time is irrelevant here
ye I don't get it
when the copy is printed onto something he's not identical to anything currently existing, so he'd be the same as what ? does this only work in true 4D or something ?
8 months ago
Anonymous
It doesn't matter what "currently" exists. That scan exists in a "moment", a moment is a point in existence not time.
8 months ago
Anonymous
>They would be the same at the moment of the scan
but the copy wouldn't exist at the moment of the scan since it wouldn't be "active" until copied on some "hardware"
this implies consciousness and potential consciousness are the same thing to you
8 months ago
Anonymous
>They both are 1, 1=1.
no, anon. one is 1 and the other is 2. for both of them to be 1 they would have had to come into existence at the same time.
8 months ago
Anonymous
>The copy's conciseness isn't any less "real" than the original's
Again, irrelevant. The brain scan machine doesn't "split" anything. It creates a digitial representation of the mind by copying the physical layout of it. Copying your brain data into a computer is never going to cause you to become some other guy.
8 months ago
Anonymous
>Copying your brain data into a computer is never going to cause you to become some other guy.
for the 2 millionth time, that is not the argument
At the exact moment of the scan, any Simon made from that scan is the same Simon but only up until that moment. I'm using the word moment very intentionally here.
If you were to spontaneously undergo mitosis and split right down the middle, both of you would be you for a moment. You would both be spiderman pointing at each other claiming that you are the "real" you
8 months ago
Anonymous
the coin toss is instancing
the original is the original
but the copy is also the original at the moment its created
ergo the 5050 i switch doors
8 months ago
Anonymous
You're confusing two things being identical with two things being the same thing. A digital copy of your mind can be exactly the same as your own mind in every way, but at no point is it actually your own mind.
8 months ago
Anonymous
that's what is being discussed, have you any argument?
8 months ago
Anonymous
There is no discussion. Some people understand, most do not, and can not.
8 months ago
Anonymous
>A digital copy of your mind can be exactly the same as your own mind in every way, but at no point is it actually your own mind.
That in no way contradicts what I said
8 months ago
Anonymous
Yes it does. "both of you would be you for a moment" is only true if you believe any exact replica of your brain in anywhere on the planet is "you", regardless of whether they just popped into existence one second ago or not. They would be based on you, and they would probably do exactly what you would do in any given scenario, and they would certainly believe themselves to be you, but YOUR perspective doesn't actually change at any point, so who YOU are doesn't, either. There's just a second guy running around who thinks exactly like you.
8 months ago
Anonymous
What makes you think that?
8 months ago
Anonymous
Because making a digital file on a computer doesn't change who you are. Why makes you think it would?
8 months ago
Anonymous
>but at no point is it actually your own mind.
But it's based on it, so the second my digital copy is made he'd think "Why am I standing over there but I'm over here?"
8 months ago
Anonymous
>If you were to spontaneously undergo mitosis and split right down the middle
Simon literally never does this or anything remotely like this at any point in the game. Every time a new Simon is created it is undeniably obvious which was the original and which is the newly created copy. How? Because the copy is in a new fricking body or location and the old one is still in the same spot.
When Simon 2 creates Simon 3, Simon 3 spawns on the other side of a wall in a different body while Simon 2 is still there on the old side of the wall in the old body yelling about the fact that he didn't move. There's no "mitosis", neither can point at the other and say "You're the copy, I'm the original!" because it's clear as day which is Simon 2 and which is the newly created Simon 3.
The only reason Simon himself doesn't get this is because Simon is, canonically, a fricking braindamaged moron, and if you're saying you see the story the same way as Simon, well I have some bad news for you.
8 months ago
Anonymous
So continuity of consciousness is location to you?
8 months ago
Anonymous
>get shitfaced at bar >wake up puking into toilet at home >i must be a different person!
anon
i think your arguing with an >but i ate breakfast
8 months ago
Anonymous
>get shitfaced at bar >wake up puking into a toilet at home >also wake up on a park bench
which one is the real you?
8 months ago
Anonymous
The one that's me. Memories do not define consciousness.
8 months ago
Anonymous
>me is me
solid reasoning
point being both of you shared the exact same moment of consciousness before waking up. If you were honest you would say you cannot tell which one is the real you
Yes it does. "both of you would be you for a moment" is only true if you believe any exact replica of your brain in anywhere on the planet is "you", regardless of whether they just popped into existence one second ago or not. They would be based on you, and they would probably do exactly what you would do in any given scenario, and they would certainly believe themselves to be you, but YOUR perspective doesn't actually change at any point, so who YOU are doesn't, either. There's just a second guy running around who thinks exactly like you.
How would you answer the hypothetical above?
8 months ago
Anonymous
>me is me is unreasonable
You do not possess consciousness. You are a biological machine. Perhaps it is true for you, that if you brain was copied, then you would also be the copy. But that's not true for real people.
8 months ago
Anonymous
the real you is whichever ones eyes you are seeing through
the original could be determined if you knew the exact order and time of your memories leading up to the split, but if one of you was shitfaced that would be really hard since memories are easily altered in retrospect
The other you would be saying "me is me "as well and he would be right because you were the same person up until that moment
the game never even mentions "splitting". Why bring it up?
>splitting is just the moment the consciousnesses begin to have new experiences, making them different.
8 months ago
Anonymous
He is him. Not me. I am me. I can't make this any more simple for you.
8 months ago
Anonymous
sure, but you never answered which is the real you
What hypothetical, that an exact clone of me and my actual self are difficult to tell apart? I'd agree completely, and then point out that has nothing to do with what we're talking about. The eyes that you're seeing out of will never change, no matter how many identical yous the thought exercise teleporter cranks out.
>The eyes that you're seeing out of will never change, no matter how many identical yous the thought exercise teleporter cranks out.
For the 10 billionth time, no shit, this has never been the argument. my god
8 months ago
Anonymous
The real me is me. If this idea is difficult for you to understand, well...
8 months ago
Anonymous
The real me is me. If this idea is difficult for you to understand, well...
kek
8 months ago
Anonymous
The real me is me. If this idea is difficult for you to understand, well...
8 months ago
Anonymous
lol. the world might not be able to tell us apart, but we still know the difference, even if we disagree about it.
8 months ago
Anonymous
Then state your argument, because so far all I've got is horrific analogies that don't have anything to do with the game Soma.
8 months ago
Anonymous
What hypothetical, that an exact clone of me and my actual self are difficult to tell apart? I'd agree completely, and then point out that has nothing to do with what we're talking about. The eyes that you're seeing out of will never change, no matter how many identical yous the thought exercise teleporter cranks out.
8 months ago
Anonymous
Bro what? If you were to forget everything, you would not be the same person. You may have the same body, but you would not be the same person, just a blank slate.
realistically the game would've ended at omicron when he did the second scan, you would wake up and be lonely and never see the end of the journey, that would've been a way better twist than OOOO LOOK WE THREW THE ARK BUT THIS TIME I'M NOT PLAYING AS THE NEW COPY HAHA GET IT crap
Or the game would end after getting the brain scan and living a short brain damaged life.
8 months ago
Anonymous
but who was park bench?
8 months ago
Anonymous
the real you is whichever ones eyes you are seeing through
the original could be determined if you knew the exact order and time of your memories leading up to the split, but if one of you was shitfaced that would be really hard since memories are easily altered in retrospect
8 months ago
Anonymous
you are simply bundling your desired conclusion into an assumption on the nature of the splitting/copying
8 months ago
Anonymous
the game never even mentions "splitting". Why bring it up?
8 months ago
Anonymous
Because his moronic insistence that there is some sort of coin toss can't work unless he fundamentally changes what happens in the game and pretends Simon is "splitting" in half, and not that brand new Simons are being created from scratch while the original remains totally unaffected like they are.
8 months ago
Anonymous
Simon effectively is splitting. He gets his brain scanned and suddenly wakes up under the sea after the world ended, that's a split.
8 months ago
Anonymous
>be flesh and blood human >suddenly I'm a robot
cool continuity
afair Simon who gets his brain scan lived for a while normally and then died, all of that offscreen since we [the player] aren't shown that and can't control original human Simon after the scan happens
8 months ago
Anonymous
yes because im answering a hypothetical question, not making an argument for why im right
actually re-reading the hypothetical it suggests you are seeing through both sets of eyes at the same time, which I can also imagine fine.
what are your assumptions on the nature of splitting and copying anon
>if you knew the exact order and time of your memories >memories are easily altered in retrospect
70IQ
I'm talking if you had a device that could scan your brain and show your memories with timestamps moron, the exact contents of the memory arent that important as much as the time it was created and the timeline you each have in your head up until you wake up/ "come to". If you had a device like that you could work out who was copied, otherwise there would be no way to tell
8 months ago
Anonymous
>actually re-reading the hypothetical it suggests you are seeing through both sets of eyes at the same time
that wasn't intentional.
The point is that two versions of your self are undisguisable. But change the scenario to one of you having a robot body, the fact remains that you were still the exact same person at the moment of divergence.
8 months ago
Anonymous
*indistinguishable
8 months ago
Anonymous
I agree, they would be the same at the moment of the split. continuing with my magical brain memory device, you could tell them apart because one would have their memories from birth with real timestamps, the copy would still have all those memories and the simulated experience but since they have only existed for a fraction of the time, all of the memories and experience were uploaded at once in bulk to that new body which is only starting to create its own memories. It doesn't really make a difference since both think the same way. Just interesting from an outsider perspective.
8 months ago
Anonymous
>have only existed for a fraction of the time
only materially so. It would be just as it is in the game, where it feels like you've been there the whole time
8 months ago
Anonymous
>if you knew the exact order and time of your memories >memories are easily altered in retrospect
70IQ
8 months ago
Anonymous
>Simon literally never does this or anything remotely like this at any point in the game
He does, you're just completely hung up on the material and physical aspects that are irrelevant to the concept of the coin toss. All the stuff you mentioned are differences that occur AFTER the moment they are no longer the same.
Hey moron you see this image that I just uploaded from my computer to Ganker?
I want you to save it to your computer, and then check the file creation date. See how the file was only created AFTER you saved it? That means it didn't exist on your computer until you saved it. You saved a copy to your computer, and that copy only began existing at the moment you clicked save.
But you're trying to argue that your copy of the file existed on your computer for as long as the original version of this image existed all the way back when whoever made it, made it, simply because they look the same. You are an idiot.
>But you're trying to argue that your copy of the file existed on your computer for as long as the original version of this image existed all the way back when whoever made it, made it, simply because they look the same.
no, no im not
and if you had even a shred of reading comprehension skills you would have figured that out by now
>The original and the copy are the same at that moment.
There is not a 50/50 chance of the original becoming the copy. There is a 0% chance of the copy being in the original's body. There is no chance at play at all.
>perspective is reality
Peak NPC mindset. >I seen it so that means it's real! Me brain can't be wrong!
Cogito Ergo Sum
There's no coin toss of Deep Sea Simon becoming Simon in Toronto. Once you understand this, the rest falls into place.
You know someones backed into a corner when they start busting out cope like "actually we can't know for sure if anything is real, therefore my particular interpretation of events is right, but not yours, because I say so!".
It actually doesn't. Probability is a metric we give things that are hard to predict. Look up Laplace's demon. Coin flip, 50/50, they're just expressions to explain the concept.
Don't get hung up on semantics
Threadly reminder that Catherine's plan with the Ark is mostly the same thing as what the WAU is trying to achieve with crafting the Mockingbirds, going as far as having to rely on the earliest steps in the WAU's pursuit of a transhuman future to make it happen. It's just infinitely crueler, as Catherine's transhumans are confined to the false reality of the Ark, and while both Catherine and the WAU accidentally created macabre circumstances along the way, the WAU actively seeks to correct its mistakes while Catherine allows tragedy to fester and grow like an infected wound, as long as she could get to her final goal of launching a goldfish bowl into space
And the WAU has completely succeeded in creating a new future for the new iteration of humanity, as it was able to create a proper new human from a scan of a brain damage victim that was taken with century-old technology, and Catherine's plan would've failed if the WAU didn't bring her to life, give her Simon, and then proceeded to not do a thing to try to assert any will on humanity (given that you're free to scheme against and kill the damn thing)
this shit reminds me of an old animation about how a teleporter kills the real (you) and only makes another copy elsewhere. Let me see if I can find it.
>a fake copy is just made.
Yeah but wouldn't you at least want to let your copy be happy? Almost like a parent wanting their child to have a better life than themselves, except in this case the child is a literal copy of you.
bro i feel this after cheeto man took the big job
i swear to god the world ended in 12/12/2012 and its just one giant ass blooper real ever since that Black person won a nobel peace prize for slinging drones somehow
i shouldve realized it then but it took cheeto man's meme magic to make me realize it
I can't help but notice that in trying to defend his initial argument that there is a coin-toss but people just don't understand what that means, this schizo has completely and utterly abandoned even talking about coins or any form of probability to derail the argument into impossible discussions about the nature of reality itself.
I think we can conclude 1 of 2 possible things from this.
1: He got BTFO over the actual coin toss argument and intentionally derailed the argument into a bunch of nonsense with no answer to avoid having to admit he was wrong, or
2: He really did just want to bait strangers into arguing with him for as long as possible and makes up whatever stance he needs on the fly to maximize the odds of somebody biting
Coin toss is just an easy way to explain and you shouldn't take it literally.
There's no winner or loser here. There's only you 1 and you 2. If you're 2, then you're 2 and not the original, your consciousness isn't moving anywhere.
>If you're 2, then you're 2 and not the original, your consciousness isn't moving anywhere
Imagine a situation where the copy gets fricked and the original goes on, the copy would have lost that conceptual coin toss.
I would love to tell the answer to that question but everytime a thread like this comes up, people purchase our game and after completing it create these threads again so it's a great cycle.
What do you mean? They answer the question plain as day right there at the end of the game, Catherine tells Simon there was never any such thing as a coin toss because that's fundamentally not how copy-pasting data works and she was just tricking him to make him do what she wants because he's a moron.
The problem is a lot of people relate to Simon a bit too well and couldn't understand the answer even as it was being explained in the simplest terms possible, and instead of accepting how dumb they are, claim the game just didn't give an answer and make moronic threads like this for the next 10 years.
I forgot the name of the show, but in that show people would travel to long range places by sending a copy of their being into a clone body, who would then interact with whatever, then they would sit back into the pod and the memory would be sent back to the original and merged into their brain, with the clone being destroyed. In that sense you kinda dont lose a coint toss
>Energy can't be created or destroyed, and yet it exists.
Damn, this threw me for a loop. Not sure how to respond to it. Not being sarcastic btw, like, frick.
The game goes for all physics, in the end all energy systems are 0.
For example, say you go to the 5th floor. You go up there, consuming energy and creating potential energy to go back down (or fall or anything where energy is released all at once when you hit the earth). If you use an elevator, energy is being used but the price is paid by that system and not you, however that potential energy is still transferred to you as you go up and you release it when you go back down.
So with the total being 0, the initial energy to literally do anything shouldn't exist with our current understanding of physics.
Potential energy is a load of shit, as far as I'm concerned. It's just physicists, coping with the inability to accurately model gravity as a part of the total system with energy.
Yea it's kinda bullshit. Theres meteors and shit in space that have been flung for millions or billions of years that have been accelerating the entire time and thus technically should have potential energy that eventually approaches the speed of light (and if they collide with a planet or something it should go kaboom and wipe it out).
8 months ago
Anonymous
anon
the other rocks leech potential energy because just like how big rock pulls speedy rock
speedy rock pull on big rock
>big bang happens over and over >everything gets blow out and pulled back in >given that time has no meaning and this cycle has happened an infinite amount of times, there are times where sentient life develops >in some alt timeline there was a possible timeline where a pokemon world exists >also its possible that this exact universe with this exact order of events also happened several times due to infinity
its wild
>Energy can't be created or destroyed, and yet it exists.
Because energy was forged in a unique state of the universe's creation that we can never return to. Basically, when there was absolute nothingness "prior" to the big bang (prior is a bad word since technically time hadn't existed yet) there were no limitations yet either, no forces or "laws" to say, "um actually, you're not allowed to create something out of nothing because it just doesn't work like that, sweetie." In this state of infinite potential, big bang goes boom and now stuff exists (including energy), but then all that stuff starts acting upon each other and thus that laws of the universe come to be from all the interactions. But now that Pandora's Box is open (stuff exists now), there's no way to return to that state of nothingness that once held infinite potential, and thus energy can no longer be created or destroyed, only shifted around and transformed.
>yea so like here nothing exists or any concept of literally anything, let me just come into existence for no reason >where do i get energy to come into existence or a reason to? >dont mind me :^)
>yea so like here nothing exists or any concept of literally anything, let me just come into existence for no reason >where do i get energy to come into existence or a reason to? >dont mind me :^)
realistically the game would've ended at omicron when he did the second scan, you would wake up and be lonely and never see the end of the journey, that would've been a way better twist than OOOO LOOK WE THREW THE ARK BUT THIS TIME I'M NOT PLAYING AS THE NEW COPY HAHA GET IT crap
The abyss moment in the end ruins all of the story consistency of the game for the sake of stupid shock value. Without it, there's a direct unbroken line of consciousness all the way from Montréal to the Ark. >Montréal Simon experiences Montréal >First copy Simon experiences being the first copy and remembers Montréal >Second copy Simon experiences being the second copy and remembers being the first copy and remembers Montréal >Ark copy Simon experiences being on the Ark and remembers being the second copy, the first copy, and remembers living in Montréal >Ark copy can't remember anything that Montréal Simon experienced after the copying process, can't remember anything the first copy experienced after the copying process, and can't remember anything the second copy experienced after the copying process >The entire story is from the perspective of the cumulative memories of the Ark copy
That would have made sense. The fact that you can see second copy Simon sperging out over still misunderstanding the copy process makes no sense. Even if you try to factor in the classic stupidity of the coin toss, because if you can see one, you should never see the other.
>The entire story is from the perspective of the cumulative memories of the Ark copy
but it's not, it's from the perspective of the Simon that gets stuck at the bottom of the ocean.
>but it's not, it's from the perspective of the Simon that gets stuck at the bottom of the ocean.
Then why am I seeing anything from the perspective of the Simon that gets to the Ark? That's what doesn't make sense. If it was only one or only the other, it would make sense. Anything else doesn't.
right, i misremembered. The simple answer is that the devs wanted their gut punch ending while also showing that simon and cat made it rather than it all being in vain
8 months ago
Anonymous
I just don't like that contrivance. Maybe they really wanted just one of their games to have a happy ending but a shame that it ruins the immersion of the storytelling.
Destroying the WAU is the brainlet take. Simon showed that it was starting to perfect the process of implanting human conciousness into robot bodies. A glorious new robot era would begin given enough time.
im surprised that even without ever playing the game, knowing how it looks, or knowing anything about the story of the game besides word "CLONE" i figured out which game you folks were talking about
is it really worth playing it?
If it weren't for the stonetoss bullshit they could have had a kino moment when you switch to the deep sea body where you just game over once you get in the chair and when you reload your save you're in the new body.
THERE IS NO COIN TOSS YOU MISUNDERSTOOD EVERYTHING REEE
There, that's the reply you were hoping for, right? You can go to bed now.
You alright, champ?
How is there not a coin toss though. there isn't a perceivable difference in existence until the clone is made
just let your shit thread die
You are moronic
There is no coin toss. The best example of it is that Doctor Who episode Heaven Sent. The new guy isn't winning a coin toss because he comes to be after his old self dies. He's effectively a perfect clone.
Your eyes and brain are not a Hollywood camera crew. They don't leave the set and go to another location to start recording the adventures of whoever "won the coin toss" in first person.
Stop being brainrotted goyim.
No that's just you, subhuman.
Filtered, huh
fippybippy
OP got called out instantly but still samegayed the thread towards the same outcome regardless.
Shitposting always wins, b***hboy
Keep seething, wannabe janny troony
anon you shouldnt jam the dilator so far in when you are typing a response, it's clearly stressing you out
Damn. Fpbp.
>first post /thread
>people still manage to flood the fricking thread with drivel
>samegayging likely
There is a coin toss and I won it.
You live in my world. Get fricked, nerd.
the continued discussion is a result of the designers failing to properly utilize the medium and define the rules
one of two things is true, either the player is not the character and the protagonist is copied
or the player IS the character and the protagonist is actually transferred
all confusion comes from the uncertainty created by not explicitly defining which is which, no matter what, the player DOES transfer from one body to the other, but is the player the protagonist? no, there's a disconnect and that strikes me as a missed opportunity to do something interesting with the concept of player vs character
or maybe some higher subtext is going way over my head
Reminder: If you don't think there is a coin toss you unironically got filtered by a game designed for brainlets.
You're just salty you lost the coin toss.
the cointoss is only for the player not the character in universe, thats why they act confused when the copy was made, they were just scanned and nothing else, the copy / clone(player) is then the only one to consider his position relative to the original and think of it as a luck based coin toss
Finally, a good take found like water in a desert.
It is for the character, but for the same reason you explained. He acts confused because he's an idiot
There is no coin toss. If you "lost" and stayed in the perspective of the sleeping one the game would end, as such there is no 50/50. Similarly there was no 50/50 for the dumbass who didn't understand the most basic fricking concept in existence when he saw his own self he was copied from asleep in the chair and discarded by the chick. He can only copy his consciousness , but he's not the copy, he can't be. The copy is another one.
And I fully understand the other argument that the copy "felt" that they won the coin toss of the two of them since they were the copy. But the argument itself is moronic, because of course they'd be the copy, they were copied from the other guy, its like if theirs two positions and ones already filled, of course you'd get the second position, there was no chance of you being the former.
Also it annoyed me how blatantly stupid and childish the protagonist was. Doesn't get basic shit that is easily understood immediately, gets angry and confused he wasn't teleported to the ship, when he's already seen the copy method beforehand, and then spergs out on the chick for not explaining to him when she did and he refused to understand a fricking basic concept explained to him.
>flex tape
Why was he so fricking braindead?
He was a rudimentary early scan template from FOSS demo software. That's like asking why the Utah Teapot isn't very realistic.
It's heavily implied he had pretty severe brain damage from an accident back when he was human. Then he got mega moronic by being a corrupted program put into a nano-machined corpse.
did you not play the game? the first thing you do is go to a doctor because of brain damage, he's literally moronic by design
Brain hemorrhage
Gamers wouldn't be able to self-insert if he wasn't.
C*nadian
No coin toss, brainlet
*loses the salad toss*
Hey baby, I hear the blues a-callin'
Tossed salads and scrambled eggs
Oh My / Mercy / Quite stylish
And maybe I seem a bit confused
Yeah maybe, but I got you pegged!
Ha, Ha, Ha, Ha-Hah!
But I don't know what to do with those tossed salads and scrambled eggs
They're callin' again
(Scrambled eggs all over my face. What is a boy to do.)
Thank you Darius Emanuel Grouch III
Fraiser is the exact same kind of humor as The big bang theory.
What am I looking at?
a screenshot from the survival horror game Soma. It's honestly really good and has a mindblowing twist that OP refers to
It’s not a mind blowing twist you buffoon. The AI literally explains in the first 5 minutes that you are just a bunch of 1s and 0s and a COPY of a consciousness. She then tells you EVERY time you change bodies that it’s a new copy of the conscious.
Its kinda dumb tbqhfam. I get that the average gaymer wouldn't know before hand, but even when you move a file from one folder to another you're essentially just copying it to the new location and deleting the old one.
But I suppose the whole "digitise your consciousness" as a concept has been done a million times before as some kind of escape from death. I think the only real way out would be if we invented a way to regenerate dying tissue. Then you could stick your brain in a jar and feed it whatever is necessary to keep it running. Even then, at some point all of your original cells would've died and you will eventually Ship of Theseus yourself. But I think we already do that, right?? Your brain from 20yrs ago cannot be the same brain you have rn. So maybe death is just another passing of the cells until an infinite amount of time passes and those cells meet and reform into "your" brain again.
neurons don't replace themselves
the actual answer is that consciousness isnt a magical skyrim soul, and rather it's a dynamic, complex set of physical reactions happening independently every attosecond and there is no need to worry about continuation because everything we already know about existence is based on a constantly dying and perfectly replicated consciousness interacting with itself on loop
Wasnt the whole deal with brain cells that they dont regenerate?
The whole point is that there is no twist. You are just as moronic as Simon
He never had sex even once
He had a gf
No he didn't, he had a psycho b***h phone and she left him after creating him and tricking him into eternal torment
She died. She didn't leave. She was equally fricked.
we had this same thread yesterday and it had the same replies you people are insane.
>lose the coin toss
>see the thread a day later
But what if the coin lands on its edge?
The process failed and both die.
at least simon had the excuse of being a brain damaged poor quality digital clone
>There's no coin toss, Simon is just a moron
t. morons who don't understand the concept of the coin toss
>Simon sits in a chair and dies
>Simon Clone turns on and walks around
>Not in that order
There is no mechanism by which the Simon in the chair could have become the clone and walked around. Do you think the Simon at the beginning of the game could have coinflipped his way to being the Canadian in Toronto from the past?
>could have become
the meaning of this phrase is not at all obvious and is the whole crux of the argument/question
There cannot be a coin toss because a continuation of perspective after transposition is metaphysically impossible
are you moronic
it's not a literal transposition of consciousness, it's an exact clone starting its consciousness stream from the moment you pressed the button
Why do people seethe about losing the coin toss? You can just try tossing the coin again.
there is no coin toss. Being able to try over and over and fail every time would quickly make you realize that it’s bullshit
You've fundamentally misunderstood the coin toss.
It must be bliss to live as such a dullard.
Anon I don’t care about your weird doublespeak. You aren’t appearing in AI paradise after getting a brain scan. There is no coin toss. Stop coping.
The coin toss concept was just used because the main character(forgot his name) is a fricking idiot and the woman knows this.
he was literally brain damaged BEFORE he was stored in one of the oldest formats then downloaded into a broken robot
kys
WAU did nothing wrong. It would have restored humanity
t. moron
So, why did they have to "copy" him? His brain was basically a microchip like Catherines, you dont make a copy of her when you move her to a new omnitool flr example
he was the original prototype for the brainscan tech. Him coming online was pure chance.
Thats irrelevant. Catherine was also an "original human", she was still on some cpu that could just change hardware without the need of making a copy
every time catherine is turned off she loses the coinflip.
Fricking moron
nah every whatever is the hz of her processor she loses the coinflip : there is no continuity when her brain keeps turning on and off a million times each second
this is how it works for humans too btw
I know, we're not even real dude
electricity stays in the capacitors and such during that period, so she continues to exist.
that's just her memories, which are needed to rebuild her personality every tick of the cpu
cpus don't operate by tick, there are a massive number of loop increments between each tick.
adding complexity shouldn't deny the possibility of empty moments being there at all, just that they're less frequent
not as interesting
Catherine was in a tool that had a removable chip by design. Simon's body has a head chopped open, his chip shoved in, and a bunch of structure gel all over everything. There was no way to extract his chip without someone doing surgery. Even if he did have a neatly removable chip, who would have done it?
and yes only the final copy makes it to the satellite, all the other copies get stranded or killed
the female consciousness was pretty cold blooded to just let him believe he was going to make it
but he was so stupid I didn't personally feel that bad about it
I just thought he was blocking out reality as a cope so he could cling to the ark as his lifeline to escape the underwater shithole
not cold blooded at all, many of her coworkers killed themselves on the realization, with simon being the last hope for whats left of humankind she couldnt have him kill himself before launching the thing and he can always still kill himself after doing it
if could perfectly clone someones mind there is no coin toss, you end up being both
I just copied a file from my computer to my USB. How do I know if it lost the coin toss or not?
Simon loses the coin toss but I win the coin toss because I get to control the Simon who makes it.
If Simon 1 sits in the chair and starts the scan/upload into a new body, I think the correct way to say it is that afterward there is now Simon A and Simon B, and both of them were previously Simon 1. To say "I'm the only one who was REALLY Simon 1 because I'm the one sitting in the chair" is overprivileging the body (Soma) as the measure of identity. And if you say "only Simon A REALLY was Simon 1 and did those things in the past, Simon B just has memories of doing so", how do you get the "really?" Memories and belief about the past are all either of them have at that point. And if you point to the body, i.e. the shell, you're doing the same thing as before.
Irrelevant, Simon A will never be Simon B and that's what matters.
Holy pseud Batman, the one on the chair was the original, and you are just a copy, the game rapidly takes the perspective of the new copies until the end when you are shown from the perspective of being the one left behind instead of playing as the copy as usual (the ending finally shows that the last copy made it through
>the one on the chair was the original
"was" indeed, but so was the other
>just a copy
>just
what "just"?
I don't know why you're describing the POV changes in the game. No one is confused about what happened in the game.
Did you know that cutting and pasting data actually copies the original source first, creates a duplicate somewhere else, then deletes the original when that's done?
Did you know that data takes up physical space and isn't just some magical electrical crap floating around on a shiny disk?
Now you do.
I'm not sure what you're getting at, anon. If you try to use the computer copy/paste analogy things get even weirder. We don't talk about "original" data in terms of the physical location in hardware (i.e. we don't talk about the physical 'body' of the data as having importance for 'originalness'), and if we're talking data like a string of digits the concept of identity no longer applies. Or rather every instance is identical. "010100101101110" and "010100101101110" are the same information and can only be labeled arbitrarily, it makes no sense to say "that's the ORIGINAL 010100101101110" if we're just talking about the information.
>Or rather every instance is identical
computer data has unique signifiers regardless of copied and pasted data that is 'the same'. If a class is instantiating objects for example multiple 'cloned' objects would be differentiated by unique reference IDs.
>data takes up physical space and isn't just some magical electrical crap floating around on a shiny disk?
data stored in electric gate transistors, nothing is added but the orientation of the transistors
there was no coin toss, it's always a copy
Coinlet cope
>coin toss
It's just a duplicate.
>It's just a duplicate.
This. This coin toss shit is so moronic who the hell even came up with it.
It's literally just a file copy/paste of your entire personality.
i mean its meant to be that way simon is just moronic
Nah it's cope so he can press on through all the bullshit and tell himself there's a light at the end of the tunnel
Tou are frickibg moronic
Its just a thing Catherine says to tard wrangle simon, the players who actually took it as a serious point are the real morons
I think she also believe in the coin toss
And what do you think the coin toss is, anon. Please share
I read the thread, I'm not debating with you brainlet. There's no coin toss
>literally just a file copy/paste
As if you understand what happens during a file copy/paste.
moron alert
Ok but if you win the cointoss, and 7 - x = x + 26, then would it make the cube fly out of the portal or plop out of it?
This is contingent on whether enough skub was applied.
how many fricking times are you gonna make this moron thread
As long as it makes you seethe, quite a few more
The only manner in which one could say there really was a coin toss is between which of the two Simon incarnations was destined to be born originally and which was to be awoken within a computer
But that was a toss that was made when the original was born, not when the copy is made
It absolutely blows my fricking mind that there are people who unironically can't grasp the coin toss concept. These people are literally as dumb as a character who was written to be a moron with brain damage.
Insanity
Did someone say coin toss?
What if I give myself advantage before I flip the coin?
This is correct. The no-coin-tossers are moronic not because they're wrong about copy/paste, they're brainlets because they are unable comprehend the concept of the coin toss.
The original has a 100% chance of perceiving itself as the original and the copy has a 100% chance of perceiving itself as the copy, because the original is the original and was always the original and the copy is the copy and was always going to be the copy. There is no coin toss at any point.
Imagine there is a meat grinder and a pillow and two people who are the same in every way poof into existence. Once falls into the meat grinder and the other falls onto the pillow? Who won that coin toss?
>and two people who are the same in every way poof into existence.
That is not what happens in the game.
>but I did eat breakfast this morning
It is conceptually the same, just instead of poofing into existence they both lead the exact same life up until that moment, then one goes on and one does not.
Simon 4 was on the winning side of 3 coin flips. There is no reason why his exitance couldn't have been the other, they are EXACTLY the same up until those moments.
>just instead of poofing into existence they both lead the exact same life up until that moment
No they didn't, the copy didn't exist until the moment of the copying.
do you feel like you've existed since the moment you were born? Would you know what it would feel like to not exist?
You idiot, the copy has the EXACT same memories as the original, the copy IS the original. You are not an outward observer to your own existence.
Simon 4 witnessed himself "swapping" bodies 3 times.
This is so fricking simple to conceptualize, how do you not understand?
Thinking you used to exist in the past is not the same as actually existing in the past. If I plant fake memories in your brain does that mean they actually happened?
Yes, moron.
Consider this. You go to bed and someone scans your brain, kills you, and replaces you with a clone. Your clone wakes up as normal as ever, the clone has no idea what happened and the original you is dead. Who won the coin toss, "you" or the clone (also you)?
>Who won the coin toss, "you" or the clone (also you)?
There was no coin toss. I died and a clone took my place.
that is the coin toss anon, there are 0 reasons why your existence is either the one who dies or the one who goes on. It's complete chance
There is no coin toss. I'm Me 1 and the clone will be Me 2. I was always destined to be Me 1 and the clone was always destined to be Me 2. Even if Me 2 believes it's Me 1 that doesn't mean it is.
There is no such thing as chance or probability. Things just happen.
>Someone takes my memories
>Kills me
>Puts clone in my bed
>Makes it think its me
This is just a new person with my memories.
You are a continuum of memories, whether they are "fake" or not does not matter. Simon 4 is a copy of the original, but his existence meant being born, living his life, getting brain scanned, waking up as a robot, changing bodies, and being uploaded to the ark.
>coin-tossgays believe there are an infinite number of copies of Simons consciousness existing simultaneously in a magical aether realm that always existed and merely entered the physical world at the moment a copy of a computer file is created, and have to compete with each other via a "coin toss" to see which of the infinite copies that always existed becomes real
>and then say spazz out that everyone else is moronic except them
> there are an infinite number of copies of Simons consciousness existing simultaneously in a magical aether realm that always existed and merely entered the physical world at the moment a copy of a computer file is created
this is your brain on 50iq reading comprehension and christianity
You're the morons who can't comprehend the simple idea that a copy doesn't exist until after it gets created.
>but the copy THINKS it existed that means it DID exist!
Believing =/= reality, something you clearly struggle to cope with every day.
i dont like the way you're speaking to them. stop
Explain to me what the difference between you and an exact, perfect copy of you is?
Me 2 is Me 1
Every single being in the universe is a separate, different entity. Not even two identical twins are the same being. Why would this hypothetical clone be exactly the same as the original?
>Every single being in the universe is a separate, different entity.
These people are pure materialists. They think that if another brain is a perfect copy of their brain, then they're the same person. Not worth arguing with, they do not possess true consciousness. May as well argue with a bird.
This guy is literally using materialist logic
I slit your throat. I upload a copy of your brainscan into a new clone, several years later. Is that you?
No its just some guy who thinks its me.
Correct.
Not my problem.
you just slit a homie's throat and forgot to scan his brain before doing so
At the exact moment of the brain scan, YES. Continued existence after that fact is what makes the clone a new me, a coin toss winner. My existence was exactly the same in every conceivable way, up until one moment.
You and the perfect clone are alive in the same room, at the same time. Which one is you?
neither
you are the real one, but from your perspective and the clone's, there is no way to confirm who that title belongs to
Sure, the world can't tell the difference between you, because they are a perfect clone. And regardless of their perspective, they might think they're you, but YOU still know you're YOU.
What if I ate something before being clone, what if the clones not wearing the same clothing or standing in the same place as I and it remember before cloning?
All kinds of possibilities and they all end up with me + a meat puppet with fake memories.
if there is evidence for the clone to understand that they're the clone, they will be like "okay i guess i just came into existence objectively despite perceiving being the original up until a few seconds ago", and the original will be like "damn straight"
But then we run into problems like the clone having moments of
>Oh wait those are not my parents even though I have these strong feelings torwards them
>Oh thats not the love of my life despite being willing to give my life for her
>Oh thats not my dog despite being willing to kill for its well being
>Oh thats not my house or my collections or stuff and things I remember working to own and gather over the yeares
>Oh I have literally nothing and need to come to terms everything I remember is a lie
They will not be happy about any of this.
which is again following a new person who lost the coin toss. why are you obsessed with what happens afterward again
>which is again following a new person who lost the coin toss.
Theres me and then theres this new person who is made to think its me, what is a coin toss in this scenario?
the coin toss is your personal perception of who ends up where. You win if you end up in the body you want, and you lose if you end up in the body you don't want.
Soma flip flops between perspectives of Simon losing the coin toss and winning it multiple times. He loses the coin toss in the beginning when his original brain scan is transplanted into a robot thousand years in the future, and then the game's perspective follows the winning Simon perspective until the end when it switches to a newly losing Simon (when the arc blasts off leaving the loser behind.)
>the coin toss is your personal perception of who ends up where.
That will never change, you remain you and the clone will wake up thinking its me, its the same as some random guy being surgically made to look like me and getting hypnotized to think and remember things exactly as I did, theres no magical concinousness swap involved.
>You win if you end up in the body you want, and you lose if you end up in the body you don't want
Theres no body swap, this is like thinking if I make a copy of a file then I got File and Fil(1) and once I put File(1) into a new computer File might randomly get placed there instead.
>Soma flip flops between perspectives of Simon losing the coin toss and winning it multiple times
No it just changes to the perspectice of the new clone while the old clones get left behind
>He loses the coin toss in the beginning when his original brain scan is transplanted into a robot thousand years in the future, and then the game's perspective follows the winning Simon perspective until the end when it switches to a newly losing Simon (when the arc blasts off leaving the loser behind.)
OG Simon somehow having a chance to turn into his clone in the future is moronic, how do you come to a conclusion like that?
>That will never change, you remain you and the clone will wake up thinking its me, its the same as some random guy being surgically made to look like me and getting hypnotized to think and remember things exactly as I did, theres no magical concinousness swap involved.
never said it was a literal consciousness swap
>No it just changes to the perspective of the new clone while the old clones get left behind
this is exactly what i said just rephrased
>OG Simon somehow having a chance to turn into his clone in the future is moronic, how do you come to a conclusion like that?
i dont even understand what you're criticizing here, the game itself makes this point. OG simon consents to the brain scan, and then the clone wakes up immediately a billion years in the future thinking he's OG simon until told otherwise. There is nothing to argue here, that's literally what happened in the game
>i dont even understand what you're criticizing here, the game itself makes this point. OG simon consents to the brain scan, and then the clone wakes up immediately a billion years in the future thinking he's OG simon until told otherwise. There is nothing to argue here, that's literally what happened in the game
The game literally doesnt, its all a massive copy by a clone who thinks its not going to be left behind when a new clone is made.
>Nobody is claiming there is a swap. Robot-Simon and Deep-Sea-Simon are both sitting in the same chair about to be uploaded to the Deep-Sea Body, but only Deep-Sea-Simon experiences the upload. Up until that exact moment, there is no way to know which one will move on. That is the coin toss.
Half the thread is claiming theres a swap, your the outlier who thinks theres some weird double Simon thing going on when its all just 1(1) getting copied and a copy swaggering along as 1(2).
>a massive copy
cope
A copy is a copy.
>Half the thread is claiming theres a swap, your the outlier who thinks theres some weird double Simon thing going on when its all just 1(1) getting copied and a copy swaggering along as 1(2).
Did deep sea simon experience being uploaded to the suit? yes or no
>Did deep sea simon experience being uploaded to the suit? yes or no
Does a copy of a file not contain the same things contained in the first file at the moment of it being copied? Yes. Does that make it the original copy? No,
You are glossing over the point every time to make a strawman.
What strawman, we play as a bunch robots acting upon files uploaded to them, end of story.
Whether simon is a copy is entirely irrelevant. But if that framing helps you understand better than we can use it.
RoboSimon experiences sitting in the chair and going unconscious.
DeepSeaSimon experiences sitting in the chair and waking up in a new body. He is a copy, no fricking shit, but his experience was the exact same up until that point. At that moment everything was the same? Why is his existence the one that continues?
Don't you get it? Why is your existence the one you got? Why aren't you someone else?
Forget Simon, everyone has a cointoss. We all start off at the same moment of nothingness and then come into being. It's by cosmic chance that you are some something rather than nothing at all.
>It's by cosmic chance that you are some something rather than nothing at all.
Maybe, but that's completely irrelevant.
no, that is the point entirely, that is the cointoss
>DeepSeaSimon experiences sitting in the chair
No he didn't, because he didn't exist until RoboSimon pressed the button to create a new copy of his mind inside the DeepSeaBody.
Things don't exist before they exist.
Deap Sea Simon inherited the continuum of the Simon before him. From his perspective, his consciousness, he existed. He sat in the chair and then saw his old body from across the room. Stop making this dumb materialistic argument. Consciousness isn't material.
>Consciousness isn't material.
Ahaa now we are getting into the heart of this condumdrum.
Do you think souls exists? Do you believe in the supernatural? Is magic real?
no
Then what the frick is conciousness if not material?
Just because what makes consciousness is material doesn't make consciousness itself material.
Again, nobody is claiming that he isn't a copy. Ark Simon, from his perspective, live the exact same life as the Simon's before him up until the exact moment of divergence (coin toss moments). From his perspective he came out on the winning side, every time.
And Ark Simons perspective is FAKE. He thinks he lived the same life as the previous Simons but that's because he was spawned into existence with a FAKE set of memories, and only started experiencing existence for real after he, you know, started existing.
Ark Simon never "came out" on the robot body, or the deep sea body.
see
then see
The crux of this argument hinges on the fact that you are too fundamentally stupid to understand that your perspective is not reality, a common mental deficiency of NPCs.
To that end, arguing with your is fundamentally impossible because like someone else said before, it's like I'm trying to explain color to a blind person. You're trying to argue that things exist before they exist because they can believe they existed and that simply believing something is true means it magically is true.
You ARE Simon. You are a moron who has to invent nonsensical scenarios in your head that make sense (to you) because you can't understand what's actually happening, even as it's spelled out letter for letter right in front of your face.
yes. to all of those questions. Humans define "supernatural" as things we don't understand yet. Lightning and burning gas vents were supernatural events before we figured them out.
>From his perspective, his consciousness, he existed
Yeah, but in reality, he didn't. He poofed into existence in a single moment with a set of fake memories copied from the Simon before him that made him think he existed before, but he didn't. Thinking you existed doesn't mean you did.
I could smack you in the head with a bat and make you hallucinate fake memories of existing 500 years before you were actually born, that doesn't mean you actually did. Although I do strongly suspect you actually did get struck in the head by a heavy object at some point in your life.
bro, you just keep screaming
>hes a copy hes a copy hes a copy
while theses concepts of consciousness and existence fly over your head
He is a copy and his consciousnesses did not exist until the prior Simon pressed a button to synthesize him into existence.
That's how copying works.
>Whether simon is a copy is entirely irrelevant.
Its what the whole game reloves around you silly frick
>RoboSimon experiences sitting in the chair and going unconscious.DeepSeaSimon experiences sitting in the chair and waking up in a new body. He is a copy, no fricking shit, but his experience was the exact same up until that point. At that moment everything was the same?
Why is his existence the one that continues?
Because the copy exists to percieve things and it continues to percieve things as long as it exists?
>Don't you get it? Why is your existence the one you got? Why aren't you someone else?
Because I am me and the copy is a copy, easy peasy.
>Forget Simon, everyone has a cointoss. We all start off at the same moment of nothingness and then come into being. It's by cosmic chance that you are some something rather than nothing at all.
Well yeah theres so many different sperm cells dying and being made that its highly unlikely to even begin predicting which one gets to chance to become a human and when. The mind scan copies however just exist as is, copies, the real coinflip is if their made or not. You remain you, copy is a copy, theres now another instance of your memories bouncing around in another entitis head. I dont understand what magic is at play here to somehow make it anymore difficult than that.
>That will never change, you remain you and the clone will wake up thinking its me, its the same as some random guy being surgically made to look like me and getting hypnotized to think and remember things exactly as I did, theres no magical concinousness swap involved.
Nobody is claiming there is a swap. Robot-Simon and Deep-Sea-Simon are both sitting in the same chair about to be uploaded to the Deep-Sea Body, but only Deep-Sea-Simon experiences the upload. Up until that exact moment, there is no way to know which one will move on. That is the coin toss.
You can't actually be this dumb can you? You're just OP baiting to keep the thread going because you find the arguments funny, right?
What part don't you get?
Why I ever got suckered into falling for your bait to begin with, OP.
take your meds, dummy
One of them, but at some point there was a divergence in our existential continuum. We are the same up until that moment. We both experience stepping into a clone vat, and then walking out. Without outside observers there would be no way of telling which was the original.
There is no need to tell which was the original or the clone - there cannot be a premise where the original and the clone are not designated.
You are merely an continuum of memories. If the continuums is the same you are the same
then, in the same room with your perfect clone, you would be both people.
To set up your (moronic) thought experiment, you must already designate an original and a clone and then try to materialistically equivocate the two as much as you possibly can. It will always fail and always be moronic because the premise is flawed from the outset. Trying to operate under pure materialism (even memories) is flawed. Things that are by all appearances identical still end up being fundamentally different, but also, if your hypothetical, perfect clone only exists inside an impossible set of parameters - it effectively doesn't exist.
I'm remembering now that Western philosophers already solved this stupid shit when they blew out rationalists who thought being and existence was just experience.
>Which one is you?
neither
if you play around with the idea of your own consciousness popping in and out of existence constantly you probably died and got reconstructed hundreds of time while browsing this thread alone : you're only you when you think you're you, and then you die
I never realized there were people that were actually serious about consciousness getting transferred in hypothetical clonings. The argument that every time we sleep and wake up, we are a new "clone" with all the memories of our previous selves would have more merit, and I guess people who die in their sleep are people who lose this moronic coin toss concept?
Explain it in your own words without circular logic like, "Because it just is, okay!!!" But also, induction, probability, and chance are inherently not based on logic, but on custom or previous experiences - they don't actually predict the future one way or the other. So even granting you that there's some transference of consciousness, there is no "coin toss" involved. Things just happen.
>transferred
If that is your take away you need work on your reading comprehension and try again
>Why would this hypothetical clone be exactly the same as the original?
BECAUSE THEY FRICKING ARE. Simon 4 shared the exact same existence with simon 1 at brain scan, simon 2 at deep sea swap, and simon 3 at ark upload.
How can you not grasp the most simple concepts of your perception of existence. Read a fricking epistemology book or something holy shit.
Holy shit, another brainlet that ''thinks'' he is smart
There isn't a difference to the world.
There is a difference as you are now dead.
>Explain to me what the difference between you and an exact, perfect copy of you is?
I was born to my mother, I had a fairly uneventful life and at some point had my brain scanned.
The perfect clone is a person created via artificial means with its empty mind filled with things it never experienced but its something it perceives as things it experienced, it thinks its me when its just a new person having been brainwashed into believing it had a whole life of its own.
things nobody said ever for 100
you're either trolling or actually room temp iq
that's a completely different hypothetical, moron. le breakfast meme doesn't apply
>that's a completely different hypothetical
it's not
replace poofing with being born, and replace falling into a grinder with being uploaded to the ark. It's the fricking same
No, the continuum has diverged at that point, you are no longer the same people, you where, but now are not
>No, the continuum has diverged at that point, you are no longer the same people, you where, but now are not
Okay, so if I made a clone of you and then killed you immediately, is that clone (you)?
can you elaborate on what the copy would perceive that would make them instinctively understand that they're the copy? That they woke up on the other side of the room? They would still have memories of doing everything up to that point before the brain scan
starting to think this anon might be moronic,
anyway, yes anon, to you, those events actually happened. if osama bin laden's memories were scanned and uploaded into previously empty human brain, that new brain would think they're osama because they have all those experiences and thoughts, even though they didn't actually happen to that brain. That isn't "the original" osama in their body, and now there are effectively two osama souls in reality. The dead one, and the new one with the memories of the old one feeling like they're the same person
No, there wouldn't be two Osamas. There's be Osama and Osama-1 (empty brain with Osama memories and structure).
We do not fully understand what consciousness and perspective is.
We don't know why you have your conscious perspective and I have mine.
We don't know why our conscious perspective is never interrupted or never changes to something else.
All we know is that it has something to do with the brain as any and all other organs can be damaged and we don't lose our conscious perspective. But we don't know how it works or why. We don't know how consciousness works in two instances because no two human brains host the same perspective.
For example, lets say we knew exactly how our brains create or maintain or host our conscious perspective and you were able to simulate it on a computer 1:1. And lets assume it isn't something unique to our brains being a flesh computer.
What does the person experience? You have two choices:
1. Shared instance - The person experiences two conscious perspective for the the first time. One of their own mind and one from the simulated one. Kinda like seeing double vision out of two different pairs of eyes. This means consciousness can be transferred.
2. Local Instance - You now have two fully sentient and conscious instances of the same person. Their mind and memories are 100% the same. Better than SOMA's android with human memories and mimicking behavior.
In neither instance is there a coin flip. In the first, you'd see both perspectives until the old body was "disabled". In the second, you will always be you.
>there wouldnt be two osamas
>lists two osamas
He means that there wouldn't be an extension of one consciousness.
These frickers in Cyberpunk that share the same mind are closer to that.
>the universe is deterministic
>nothing is a coin toss
>we still use "coin toss" to refer to events we can't predict reliably
>simon is moronic and can't predict what will happen in these instances
>there is a coin toss
>>the universe is deterministic
Recent cartoons having people die and then insist the flesh puppet with implanted memories is totally the same as the orignal persons "self" or "soul" is now transfered into a new body is such a weird thing. Like do they not understand they just killed off a character and have a homonculus walking around pretending to be them?
Reminder that the true threat isn't ignorant consumers or greedy executives, but the ones in government enabling them.
Ganker really is the e-celeb board, this discussion is only happening I think because Quin69 finished SOMA today.
quin69 finished soma today so that this discussion could be had
>Quin69
literally who
there is a soma thread at least once a week since it came out
Sure dude, totally organic discussion.
Also her wife deleted a photo on instagram with another guy, they were both smiling and the man (blond just like quin) was holding one of the sheeps, so quin is actually a cuck?
STREAMSNIPERS
Braindead zoomer newbie, we have this thread every other day for years now. Go back
This is a quin69 thread now. Tell me, why is he so fricking moronic and lazy now
He is getting old and tired, he is not old Quin that can handle some banter, he bans everyone that goes against him, on games he is just regressing each new game, come on, on PoE he only got 2 out of 4 voidstones this league, he never really killed 7 uber bosses on SSF and in D4 he was not able to kill Uber Lilith.
>be a dumb homie with no wisdom or understanding
>look in the mirror
>yep thats me, that's what i am
every fpbp poster in this thread hasnt read descartes
Is there a coin toss to become the new consciousness or not?
No. your soul is so vast and powerful that it can pilot an infinite number of you simultaneously.
The idea of the "coin toss" is pure cope. it doesn't happen. If you make a copy of yourself, then you made a copy, you're still you. You don't magically get transported into the body and consciousness of your copy.
>tfw catherine turned out to be just an autismo human and not some cool evil AI waifu like shodan
Kinda disappointed tbh
The game is a complete garbage, a slight improvement from Amnesia, but still 2deep4u story.
Filtered
incorrect
it's the opposite of 2deep4u
devs knew this was an overabused subject and directed it composed without being 2deep4u
>uh coin toss real, you're the exact same person because memories
Would you let a clone of you frick your girlfriend? You're literally the same person, right?
No, I'd frick my own clone.
The only coin toss will be who will top.
>Would you let a clone of you frick your girlfriend?
Sure, its me, I would get another POV and would cum like a lord.
Would you let your twin brother? You are genetically the same being
twins dont work here because you are only perfect copies for the first second of existence and then you drift farther and farther apart until death
And this doesn't apply to clones because...?
it does, but none of the discussions about what a coin flip is pertain to long term personality differences that stem from the original and clone continuing to exist and develop as people.
That's convenient. But okay, even if we held you and your so-called perfect clone in perfect stasis from the very moment of your inceptions, there still is no transference of consciousness, there still is no actual perfectness - you two differ if only by occupying two non-contiguous spaces.
Don't bother, NPCs have no sense of self
yes
but id also frick my clone
let my clone frick me
and then double team her
There is no issue. From the copies perspective it just feels like they were always the original. Catherine didn't give a frick and needed something to motivate the brain damaged very desperate midwit to keep going. Simon is in shock the entire time.
Suppose you throw a coin enough times, suppose one day, it lands on its edge.
>arguing over the physics of consciousness
literally moronic
best way to prove consciousness doesn't exist
circular logic is bad because it just is okay
consciousness is ignorance
I thought by coin toss they meant that you were """tossing a coin""" to see if you were the new copy of the guy from before, since all of the robots/androids/whatever seem to be some kind of conscious.
Like Simon thought it was transferring his consciousness, but it was just making a copy and the person that copy was made from was still just himself in his old body. And the "coin toss" was if the new Simon was just remembering his actions before the copy was made.
I didn't know by "Coin toss" you guys were shit posting and saying that there was a 50/50 that your consciousness would actually be transferred.
It's just anons arguing because they're fricking bored and want to debate insane semantics for no real reason.
That's fricking moronic because that's not a coin toss. Whether you perceive yourself as the original, or perceive yourself as having switched bodies, depends entirely on your personal understanding of the Teleporter Problem and the philosophies which you develop as a result of that understanding.
It isn't chance based in any way, ergo, it cannot be a coin toss.
Am I the only one who finds the arc to be a pointless continuation of humanity?
A bunch of simulated consciousness on a hard drive floating through space unable to interact with the material world or progress in any meaningful way seems pretty hellish. Also it will most certainly be hit by space debris or have the components rot out eventually, so it's a finite thing in general
I think it was meant to be more of a mausoleum than an actual continuation. The hope was that maybe there was other life out there and one day that they would come across the ark and see that humanity did exist.
you can make the exact same argument about your existence right now.
>To set up your (moronic) thought experiment, you must already designate an original and a clone and then try to materialistically equivocate the two as much as you possibly can
no, that's your materialist argument.
I don't know how many times I have to say that you and any number of copies of you are the same up until a divergence of the continuum
And yet you are the one who keeps trying to equivocate the two materialistically by saying they share the same memories or experiences. That you keep trying to equivocate the two at all means that they are originally different. Memories and experiences are materialistic, and sharing them does not equivocate two beings, in part because memories and experiences are fundamentally flawed and don't actually tell us anything. Rain falling when there are rain clouds does not actually logically follow, we are simply accustomed to expecting rain to fall, like dogs being trained with a clicker. We know what a perfect circle is but we have never experienced one. Our being and existence is separate from our memories or experience.
Time for bed.
My argument is solely based on consciousness, aka, the furthest thing from materialism you can get. Your the one hung up on literal material differences.
And what is consciousness?
>Also it will most certainly be hit by space debris
you don't understand how big space is
the chances of that happening is like 1 in a quintillion
It's better than nothing.
>am I the only one
Yep no one else has ever commented on that ever man
The arc is the ultimate desperate cope, there's just no better alternative
just like heaven
Would you opt to turn yourself off, if you woke up on the arc?
it's better than nothing and you can never truly predict the future
odds = heads
evens = tails
call it
Heads.
The ark is absolutely fricked, especially since it's probably infected with the same thing that's fricking the undersea base. All those "people" will be eternally trapped in a simulation controlled by an evil "god"
You are moronic.
The WAU is not "evil" nor would it give any frick about a box of simulated humans, even if it somehow had "infected" the arc. Which there are no indications it did
>there are no indications that it infected the arc
Simon was infected with it, and he handled the Arc. Case closed.
>The WAU is not "evil"
Yeah yeah, it's not strictly "evil" by the human definition, but it sees absolutely no value in organic life, and freely experiments on them however it wishes to fulfill its own goals and curiosity.
It doesnt have any own goals or curiosities
Its only goal is to maintain humanity, it just does it by any means, creating moronic abominations. The WAU doesnt "think", its just a program working in overdrive
>its goal is to maintain humanity
Yes, but it has no idea what humanity actually is. It will create suffering monstrosities out of humans, as long as they're technically "alive", as we see in the game.
Yes. Thats why it, has no work with the arc and wont be some "evil god" for them
You think that being kept alive forever, eventually against your will, while under the complete control of something that doesn't understand what you are is ok?
Sure.
It's still better than the endless nothing, and there are limits as to how insane a person can become.
What the frick are you talking about, moron.
We are talking about the arc. There arent any actual humans on there. Its just code. How do you think the WAU will keep them "alive" forever if its even on the arc somehow
REMEMBER GUYS, the ARC is literally a goldfish bowl for the human consciousness, it has NOTHING going on and people inside don't have higher functions or long term memory.
It quite literally values life as humanity is a part of life, which is must maintain. Honestly the WAU has a better chance of creating and preserving the human race through sheer mutations.
It does not know what humanity is, and is unable to understand it. The game explicitly shows this.
Humanity is the people, it obviously understands that much seeing as every other machine has some kind of memories or consciousness loop going on, you literally go through the game turning some of them off so I don't understand what you're saying it 'explicitly' shows.
When I see posts like this, I'm reminded of some modern extremist Buddhists who say shit like "There's only so many souls to go around."
The game shows the WAU learning to understand it. Simon 2 is one of the WAU's latest creations.
when i first played soma, different anon btw, i thought that either a piece of the ark or the ark itself had a drip of structure gel on it falling from the ceiling. i haven't been able to replay soma in a while due to other shit but i've been meaning to go back and check everything related to it we find near the end
everyone's let's play on youtube is not slow enough to capture things at every angle
even if i'm misremembering i don't think it would matter though, the WAU is what controls structure gel, right? wouldn't it need a link to that gel to even make it do what it wanted or is all gel programed so that even if there is no link to the WAU it still tries to follow some form of logic and "fix" stuff
>game unambiguously explains that there was never any kind of "coin toss" involved in absolutely part of the story at any point and that Catherine was just using that as a trick to manipulate Simon because he was a moron
>some people still somehow finish the game and their first question is "Ok but how did the coin tosses work though?"
he lost the coin toss only once, and it was at the end
Okay but why couldn't we win the last coin toss? kind of a bullshit ending
every coin toss denier in this thread is fricking moronic. if you personally did this brain scanning clone bullshit, and now there were two of you, your original self would be vindicated because nothing happened from your perspective, and your clone self would save face and pretend like they just weren't wrong the whole time and be like "YUP IM THE CLONE AND THE ORIGINAL ME IS OVER THERE (nervously gulps)"
But both of those outcomes are 100%, you moron.
YOU DON'T TOSS A FRICKING COIN AND GET BOTH HEADS AND TAILS, moron
You really don't get it. From an existential point of view, there are 0 reasons why your existence couldn't have been the bad one. This is the crux. What part is confusing you? honest question
original you wins the coin toss and clone you loses the coin toss in anon's scenario, anon
People are only afraid of the Teleporter Problem because they are infested with spiritual parasites.
Continuation of consciousness doesn't actually matter, idiots. 'Subconsciousness' is cope. You die every time you fall asleep and a new version awakens, and that's perfectly fine.
If a teleporter cloned me somewhere else and incinerated the old version then I would still use it. If it failed to incinerate the old version then I would shoot myself, safe in the knowledge that I still exist in every sense that actually matters.
>I'm so stupid I'll happily kill myself if the chance ever arrives!
Good for you?
what if I told you I just made a copy of you ?
do you have a nice day now ?
The scenario assumes sufficient verification, idiot.
does it or are you just chickening out ?
why would sufficient verification even matter
Never talk to me or my shuttlecraft again, or it will be a self defense situation.
>If a teleporter cloned me somewhere else and incinerated the old version then I would still use it
You would be a pile of ash, the new "you" is a duplicate that just mimics you very well.
Arbitrary and meaningless.
If the clone bears my memories then it is me, and I am it. I'd say several years would have to pass before value drift occurs to such a degree that I would no longer be able to perceive the clone as myself, but that's a very rough estimate and largely doesn't matter anyway because there can't be two of me at once, NOT because of any problems with self-identity, but because my resources are finite and cannot really support two bodies. Thus, whichever one is in the superior position at the time might as well be the one to continue on.
That's not true at all; your brain activity continues as normal, minus small regions of it
>You die every time you fall asleep and a new version awakens, and that's perfectly fine.
No, moron. There is no You in the first place. "You" is an abstract perception with no actual, fundamental existence.
the ending is moronic because you can literally shut off your own clone and ask what would happen if you didn't, which is wander around, trapped with whatever energy was left in the suit because it really is just a copy
>that suit is just a copy
Simon was dead before the game even started. They're all just copies who don't know it.
although they really should after a certain point, must have been the WAU juice preventing him from realizing his body/face is all fricked up
how do you gays not understand that if you clone yourself you don't magically have a 50% chance of becoming the clone
that isn't the argument, congrats on outing yourself brainlet
you dont become the clone, the clone starts is existence thinking it was you. And if you're the clone, that really fricking sucks
>And if you're the clone, that really fricking sucks
what
being the clone is always the best case scenario : noone would make a clone which is worse off than the original
If I was cloned and had a shit lifespan or huge problems i'd honestly just say put me out of my misery.
are you thinking metal gear ?
original simon died like a month of headaches later
I'd rather have my wacky underwater adventure
the premise of the game is that a clone based on a hundreds-year old brain scan is created by sheer chance that the original simon could have never known about. being a clone in that scenario fricking sucks
>OP makes shitty bait thread
>keeps replying to himself intentionally getting it wrong to make people sperg out and correct him
>rins and repeat until bump limit
You would think that, but these same arguments happen everywhere, not just on Ganker, but in any discussion of this game. If it was just here and there, I would assume that it was just trolls pretending to believe the coin flip nonsense, but it's everywhere. Some people really believe that shit.
Well you've gotta hand it to the devs, they absolutely nailed making Simons stupidity accurate to how real life stupid people would think and act in that situation.
The downside being they made it so half (or probably about 60%) of their potential audience would never understand their story no matter how it was explained to them.
>they made it so half (or probably about 60%) of their potential audience would never understand their story no matter how it was explained to them
It's like trying to explain color to a blind person.
>It's like trying to explain color to a blind person.
Its more like trying explain color to a person who doesnt believe the fact that colors are a bunch of energy bouncing off of different surfaces into our eyes.
>colors are a bunch of energy bouncing off of different surfaces into our eyes
None of that helps a person understand color, who has never seen it. Sure you can explain the scientific basis of it to them, but that doesn't actually help them understand it or see it.
>It's like trying to explain color to a blind person.
Funny, when I was in elementary school that actually was an assignment my teacher gave our class. Specifically it was "Describe the color red to a blind person".
Even as a 7 year old I immediately realized this assignment was impossible because every term I could possibly describe red with was dependent on some other frame of reference that depended on having sight. I was so confused why they would even give us this question, and even more confused at the way every other kid around me just took out their pencil and started writing stuff like "red is a bright color, red is a warm color".
That was probably the earliest moment in my life when I started to realize most other people weren't truly "people" as I understood myself to be a person. They were something else, something empty, basic and unthinking. NPCs ,as we now know them.
>ITT people grossly misinterpret a basic Teleporter Clone Dilemma because the game deliberately tricks you with POV changes
Shoulda used Ctrl+X instead of Ctrl+C(oin toss).
Since the interactive game couldn't teach you, here is a cartoon for children. It even uses biological bodies, instead of robotic as example so it might be a little to tough for you buddy.
people who think there is a coin toss are the same kind of morons who defend v3s ending
>The coin toss refers to a 50/50 chance of your perception making you feel/think that you switched bodies
There is a 0% chance of the original feeling like they switched bodies. You are moronic if you think otherwise.
You are not your body, you are your consciousness. You are a continuum of thought and memory. The original and the copy are the same at that moment.
lol no. Even this weak argument you keep repeating, "at the moment of copying, you are identical" is wrong. Even while a copy is made of you, you are still you.
>"at the moment of copying, you are identical" is wrong
how is it wrong? You haven't been able to explain why.
The original and the copy are the same at that moment.
This doesn't even contradict my statement
perspective is reality YOU ABJECT MORON
Everyone is laughing at you.
That's okay, none of them are real people. There are maybe 4 actual consciousnesses ITT.
>perspective is reality
Peak NPC mindset.
>I seen it so that means it's real! Me brain can't be wrong!
What is real then anon? Explain to me how you know this is all real without using your perspective on everything you know. Explain to me how you know with 100% certainty you aren't in a simulation right now.
>What is real then anon?
The fact that you're a moronic suffering from a severe case of dunning-kruger syndrome, that's what's real.
nice dodge.
the ironing is certainly real
I know with 100% certainty that you are a moron who wouldn't be able to breath if your body didn't do it automatically for you.
It's impossible to explain to you, because it's simply beyond your understanding. As said, it's like explaining color to a blind person.
You haven't made an argument outside of your le copy strawman.
There is no argument that can be made that you would possibly understand.
If your position can't be understood, then you don't understand your position either.
Our position is "reality is real" and your position is "NAH MAN WHATEVER I SEE IS REALITY, A SCHIZOPHRENIC MAN LOCKED UP IN AN INSANITY WARD HALLUCINATING THAT HE'S A PIRATE WIZARD FROM SPACE *IS* ACTUALLY THAT BECAUSE HE PERCEIVES IT AND PERCEPTION *IS* REALITY THEREFORE THERE ARE 4 DIFFERENT VERSIONS OF SIMON LIVING INSIDE HIS HEAD AND EVERY TIME A NEW ONE GETS CREATED THEY TOSS A COIN TO SEE WHICH ONE *COMES OUT* ON THE OTHER SIDE BECAUSE THEY ALL EXISTED SIMULTANEOUSLY BECAUSE THEY THINK THEY EXISTED AND THINKING YOU EXISTED EVEN IF YOUR MEMORIES ARE LITERALLY ARTIFICIAL COMPUTER DATA MEANS YOU DID EXIST!".
what do you think consciousness is? what do you think causes the continuity of consciousness?
>The original and the copy are the same at that moment.
Which is irrelevant. Two things that are identical aren't the same thing, they're different identical things. If you sit down in the brain scan chair, you're gonna get up from the brain scan chair. The OTHER "you" across the room getting up from the brain replication chair is gonna THINK he sat down in the brain scan chair, but he didn't.
>Two things that are identical aren't the same thing
It's not two things, it's one thing, Simon's conscious. It then splits into two things at that moment. The copy's conciseness isn't any less "real" than the original's
>There is not a 50/50 chance of the original becoming the copy. There is a 0% chance of the copy being in the original's body. There is no chance at play at all.
that isn't the argument for the millionth time
A coin toss is not a 50/50 chance. There is no point at which anything related to chance happens to SImon. This is a very materialistic setting in which things happen to Simon, who lacks agency on all levels.
You haven't explained what you think the coin toss is beyond "Bro, like, how did I get here, man? How am I me?" and the second anyone engages with you on that ground, you immediately revert to "Well actually, their two consciousnesses are split from the same so the copy IS the original."
Please explain what the cointoss is in explicit terms and renounce the Talmud in your answer.
"Bro, like, how did I get here, man? How am I me?"
That is the coin toss anon
Ark Simon experienced life as a human, waking up in the future as a robot, being uploaded to a dead body in a deep sea diving suit, and then being uploaded to the ARK. It makes absolutely no difference at what point he physically or materially came into existence.
The point is that none of them were Simon, they just didn't know it. Simon died long ago.
You argue like a israelite and you didn't renounce the Talmud in your response. I have decided to send money to the Red Crescent, since that's still a legal way to provide material aid to Gaza.
Existentialism is not called "Coin Toss" and Jesus Christ is the Messiah.
>loses the argument
>calls the opponent a israelite
i think we know which side won THIS thread guys
This argument never ends. Nobody wins. It goes in circles again and again and again.
>It then splits into two things at that moment
this makes no sense
what happens in this scenario if you make the scan, frick around with the scanned person for 5 minutes, and then do the copy ?
did the consciousness split at the scan or at the copy ?
They would be the same at the moment of the scan. Simon went on and lived his life after his first brain scan, but to his first copy, he had the exact same life experience but instead immediately woke up in Talos
Is it your option that if two people who live the exact same life under the exact same circumstances aren't functionally the same? Ignore the fact that there are two of them. They both are 1, 1=1.
>reality is real
a tautology, very intelligent anon
>Is it your option that if two people who live the exact same life under the exact same circumstances aren't functionally the same? Ignore the fact that there are two of them. They both are 1, 1=1.
Once again, you define yourself by external perceptions, revealing your lack of an inner reality. Yes, it's true that the world might not be able to tell the difference between them, but they are still different people.
There may be two of them, but they are not different. And if you insist that they are different how?
Saying their different is like saying the one "1" is different from the other "1" solely because there are more than one "1".
No. It makes absolutely no difference when the copy is made, the copy's continuum will always start at the moment of the scan. Time is irrelevant here
See above. They are both 1, but then 1 becomes 1.1 and then 1.2 and so on after the continuum diverges from that exact moment
>There may be two of them, but they are not different. And if you insist that they are different how?
Once again, this argument goes in a circle. How are they different? Well, ask yourself, if there's a copy of you sitting next to you, are you both? No, of course not, you are one of them. The copy is not you, they are their own creature.
yo dumbass
both copies insist they are the real one
who gives a shit
>Well, ask yourself, if there's a copy of you sitting next to you
No, obviously, you would both be have new experiences and a diverged continuum of consciousness. If you woke up next to a clone of yourself, you would both insist that you are the original.
Doesn't matter, using a mathematical expression is easy to conceptualize because it excludes all the bullshit of the material world. They can both be 5 if you want.
>christcucking
well that explains everything. If everything hinges on the existence of the soul than all of this is a non starter
>They are both 1
What determines what number someone is?
>Time is irrelevant here
ye I don't get it
when the copy is printed onto something he's not identical to anything currently existing, so he'd be the same as what ? does this only work in true 4D or something ?
It doesn't matter what "currently" exists. That scan exists in a "moment", a moment is a point in existence not time.
>They would be the same at the moment of the scan
but the copy wouldn't exist at the moment of the scan since it wouldn't be "active" until copied on some "hardware"
this implies consciousness and potential consciousness are the same thing to you
>They both are 1, 1=1.
no, anon. one is 1 and the other is 2. for both of them to be 1 they would have had to come into existence at the same time.
>The copy's conciseness isn't any less "real" than the original's
Again, irrelevant. The brain scan machine doesn't "split" anything. It creates a digitial representation of the mind by copying the physical layout of it. Copying your brain data into a computer is never going to cause you to become some other guy.
>Copying your brain data into a computer is never going to cause you to become some other guy.
for the 2 millionth time, that is not the argument
At the exact moment of the scan, any Simon made from that scan is the same Simon but only up until that moment. I'm using the word moment very intentionally here.
If you were to spontaneously undergo mitosis and split right down the middle, both of you would be you for a moment. You would both be spiderman pointing at each other claiming that you are the "real" you
You're confusing two things being identical with two things being the same thing. A digital copy of your mind can be exactly the same as your own mind in every way, but at no point is it actually your own mind.
that's what is being discussed, have you any argument?
There is no discussion. Some people understand, most do not, and can not.
>A digital copy of your mind can be exactly the same as your own mind in every way, but at no point is it actually your own mind.
That in no way contradicts what I said
Yes it does. "both of you would be you for a moment" is only true if you believe any exact replica of your brain in anywhere on the planet is "you", regardless of whether they just popped into existence one second ago or not. They would be based on you, and they would probably do exactly what you would do in any given scenario, and they would certainly believe themselves to be you, but YOUR perspective doesn't actually change at any point, so who YOU are doesn't, either. There's just a second guy running around who thinks exactly like you.
What makes you think that?
Because making a digital file on a computer doesn't change who you are. Why makes you think it would?
>but at no point is it actually your own mind.
But it's based on it, so the second my digital copy is made he'd think "Why am I standing over there but I'm over here?"
>If you were to spontaneously undergo mitosis and split right down the middle
Simon literally never does this or anything remotely like this at any point in the game. Every time a new Simon is created it is undeniably obvious which was the original and which is the newly created copy. How? Because the copy is in a new fricking body or location and the old one is still in the same spot.
When Simon 2 creates Simon 3, Simon 3 spawns on the other side of a wall in a different body while Simon 2 is still there on the old side of the wall in the old body yelling about the fact that he didn't move. There's no "mitosis", neither can point at the other and say "You're the copy, I'm the original!" because it's clear as day which is Simon 2 and which is the newly created Simon 3.
The only reason Simon himself doesn't get this is because Simon is, canonically, a fricking braindamaged moron, and if you're saying you see the story the same way as Simon, well I have some bad news for you.
So continuity of consciousness is location to you?
>get shitfaced at bar
>wake up puking into toilet at home
>i must be a different person!
anon
i think your arguing with an
>but i ate breakfast
>get shitfaced at bar
>wake up puking into a toilet at home
>also wake up on a park bench
which one is the real you?
The one that's me. Memories do not define consciousness.
>me is me
solid reasoning
point being both of you shared the exact same moment of consciousness before waking up. If you were honest you would say you cannot tell which one is the real you
How would you answer the hypothetical above?
>me is me is unreasonable
You do not possess consciousness. You are a biological machine. Perhaps it is true for you, that if you brain was copied, then you would also be the copy. But that's not true for real people.
The other you would be saying "me is me "as well and he would be right because you were the same person up until that moment
>splitting is just the moment the consciousnesses begin to have new experiences, making them different.
He is him. Not me. I am me. I can't make this any more simple for you.
sure, but you never answered which is the real you
>The eyes that you're seeing out of will never change, no matter how many identical yous the thought exercise teleporter cranks out.
For the 10 billionth time, no shit, this has never been the argument. my god
The real me is me. If this idea is difficult for you to understand, well...
kek
The real me is me. If this idea is difficult for you to understand, well...
lol. the world might not be able to tell us apart, but we still know the difference, even if we disagree about it.
Then state your argument, because so far all I've got is horrific analogies that don't have anything to do with the game Soma.
What hypothetical, that an exact clone of me and my actual self are difficult to tell apart? I'd agree completely, and then point out that has nothing to do with what we're talking about. The eyes that you're seeing out of will never change, no matter how many identical yous the thought exercise teleporter cranks out.
Bro what? If you were to forget everything, you would not be the same person. You may have the same body, but you would not be the same person, just a blank slate.
Or the game would end after getting the brain scan and living a short brain damaged life.
but who was park bench?
the real you is whichever ones eyes you are seeing through
the original could be determined if you knew the exact order and time of your memories leading up to the split, but if one of you was shitfaced that would be really hard since memories are easily altered in retrospect
you are simply bundling your desired conclusion into an assumption on the nature of the splitting/copying
the game never even mentions "splitting". Why bring it up?
Because his moronic insistence that there is some sort of coin toss can't work unless he fundamentally changes what happens in the game and pretends Simon is "splitting" in half, and not that brand new Simons are being created from scratch while the original remains totally unaffected like they are.
Simon effectively is splitting. He gets his brain scanned and suddenly wakes up under the sea after the world ended, that's a split.
>be flesh and blood human
>suddenly I'm a robot
cool continuity
afair Simon who gets his brain scan lived for a while normally and then died, all of that offscreen since we [the player] aren't shown that and can't control original human Simon after the scan happens
yes because im answering a hypothetical question, not making an argument for why im right
actually re-reading the hypothetical it suggests you are seeing through both sets of eyes at the same time, which I can also imagine fine.
what are your assumptions on the nature of splitting and copying anon
I'm talking if you had a device that could scan your brain and show your memories with timestamps moron, the exact contents of the memory arent that important as much as the time it was created and the timeline you each have in your head up until you wake up/ "come to". If you had a device like that you could work out who was copied, otherwise there would be no way to tell
>actually re-reading the hypothetical it suggests you are seeing through both sets of eyes at the same time
that wasn't intentional.
The point is that two versions of your self are undisguisable. But change the scenario to one of you having a robot body, the fact remains that you were still the exact same person at the moment of divergence.
*indistinguishable
I agree, they would be the same at the moment of the split. continuing with my magical brain memory device, you could tell them apart because one would have their memories from birth with real timestamps, the copy would still have all those memories and the simulated experience but since they have only existed for a fraction of the time, all of the memories and experience were uploaded at once in bulk to that new body which is only starting to create its own memories. It doesn't really make a difference since both think the same way. Just interesting from an outsider perspective.
>have only existed for a fraction of the time
only materially so. It would be just as it is in the game, where it feels like you've been there the whole time
>if you knew the exact order and time of your memories
>memories are easily altered in retrospect
70IQ
>Simon literally never does this or anything remotely like this at any point in the game
He does, you're just completely hung up on the material and physical aspects that are irrelevant to the concept of the coin toss. All the stuff you mentioned are differences that occur AFTER the moment they are no longer the same.
Hey moron you see this image that I just uploaded from my computer to Ganker?
I want you to save it to your computer, and then check the file creation date. See how the file was only created AFTER you saved it? That means it didn't exist on your computer until you saved it. You saved a copy to your computer, and that copy only began existing at the moment you clicked save.
But you're trying to argue that your copy of the file existed on your computer for as long as the original version of this image existed all the way back when whoever made it, made it, simply because they look the same. You are an idiot.
>But you're trying to argue that your copy of the file existed on your computer for as long as the original version of this image existed all the way back when whoever made it, made it, simply because they look the same.
no, no im not
and if you had even a shred of reading comprehension skills you would have figured that out by now
>The original and the copy are the same at that moment.
There is not a 50/50 chance of the original becoming the copy. There is a 0% chance of the copy being in the original's body. There is no chance at play at all.
Cogito Ergo Sum
There's no coin toss of Deep Sea Simon becoming Simon in Toronto. Once you understand this, the rest falls into place.
You know someones backed into a corner when they start busting out cope like "actually we can't know for sure if anything is real, therefore my particular interpretation of events is right, but not yours, because I say so!".
> *loses the coin toss*
> Twice
the coin toss is instancing
the original is the original
but the copy is also the original at the moment its created
ergo the 5050
i switch doors
50/50 implies there's a chance for something to be one thing or the other, what is that in this scenario?
It actually doesn't. Probability is a metric we give things that are hard to predict. Look up Laplace's demon. Coin flip, 50/50, they're just expressions to explain the concept.
Don't get hung up on semantics
midwit pseud game
Threadly reminder that Catherine's plan with the Ark is mostly the same thing as what the WAU is trying to achieve with crafting the Mockingbirds, going as far as having to rely on the earliest steps in the WAU's pursuit of a transhuman future to make it happen. It's just infinitely crueler, as Catherine's transhumans are confined to the false reality of the Ark, and while both Catherine and the WAU accidentally created macabre circumstances along the way, the WAU actively seeks to correct its mistakes while Catherine allows tragedy to fester and grow like an infected wound, as long as she could get to her final goal of launching a goldfish bowl into space
And the WAU has completely succeeded in creating a new future for the new iteration of humanity, as it was able to create a proper new human from a scan of a brain damage victim that was taken with century-old technology, and Catherine's plan would've failed if the WAU didn't bring her to life, give her Simon, and then proceeded to not do a thing to try to assert any will on humanity (given that you're free to scheme against and kill the damn thing)
this shit reminds me of an old animation about how a teleporter kills the real (you) and only makes another copy elsewhere. Let me see if I can find it.
It's been linked 3 times in this thread already.
there is no coin toss
also digital immortality is a scam. copying your brainwaves to a digital medium won't make you immortal. a fake copy is just made.
>a fake copy is just made.
Yeah but wouldn't you at least want to let your copy be happy? Almost like a parent wanting their child to have a better life than themselves, except in this case the child is a literal copy of you.
It wouldn't be real bro. It does not have your God-given soul.
Might as well be an AI bot floating around those dead multiplayer servers.
But anon, none of this is real.
You need to wake up.
bro i feel this after cheeto man took the big job
i swear to god the world ended in 12/12/2012 and its just one giant ass blooper real ever since that Black person won a nobel peace prize for slinging drones somehow
i shouldve realized it then but it took cheeto man's meme magic to make me realize it
I CANT WAKE UP
*baits the entire board by pretending to be moronic for the 4985204th time*
You're living in fantasy land, wishful ignorance. People really believe this shit. These arguments happen everywhere.
>These arguments happen everywhere.
its B. A gays dont understand physics
I can't help but notice that in trying to defend his initial argument that there is a coin-toss but people just don't understand what that means, this schizo has completely and utterly abandoned even talking about coins or any form of probability to derail the argument into impossible discussions about the nature of reality itself.
I think we can conclude 1 of 2 possible things from this.
1: He got BTFO over the actual coin toss argument and intentionally derailed the argument into a bunch of nonsense with no answer to avoid having to admit he was wrong, or
2: He really did just want to bait strangers into arguing with him for as long as possible and makes up whatever stance he needs on the fly to maximize the odds of somebody biting
It's almost as if, *rips bong*, the coin toss is like some sort of epistemological metaphor and not, like, flipping coins.
like far out man
Doesn't matter if it's a metaphor, the thing it's describing still isn't real.
They're just, like, ideas man. Ideas can't be real man!
Coin toss is just an easy way to explain and you shouldn't take it literally.
There's no winner or loser here. There's only you 1 and you 2. If you're 2, then you're 2 and not the original, your consciousness isn't moving anywhere.
>If you're 2, then you're 2 and not the original, your consciousness isn't moving anywhere
Imagine a situation where the copy gets fricked and the original goes on, the copy would have lost that conceptual coin toss.
I would love to tell the answer to that question but everytime a thread like this comes up, people purchase our game and after completing it create these threads again so it's a great cycle.
t. Developer
Don't even pretend that the writers knew the answer to these questions. It was intentionally left to interpretation
If you'd know the original concept and the original lie that became "the coin toss", you'd propably disagree.
Main point is that people enjoy the game, thank you guys for the love
>t. Developer
you fricker better go and develop a new game with the scp themes that were implied in the initial soma trailers
What do you mean? They answer the question plain as day right there at the end of the game, Catherine tells Simon there was never any such thing as a coin toss because that's fundamentally not how copy-pasting data works and she was just tricking him to make him do what she wants because he's a moron.
The problem is a lot of people relate to Simon a bit too well and couldn't understand the answer even as it was being explained in the simplest terms possible, and instead of accepting how dumb they are, claim the game just didn't give an answer and make moronic threads like this for the next 10 years.
I never bought it I just watched someone else's playthrough
I forgot the name of the show, but in that show people would travel to long range places by sending a copy of their being into a clone body, who would then interact with whatever, then they would sit back into the pod and the memory would be sent back to the original and merged into their brain, with the clone being destroyed. In that sense you kinda dont lose a coint toss
the clone loses the cointoss in that case anon...
Anybody have the gif of Mario getting a double cherry and then one jumps of the map and dies?
isnt it crazy that with all our scientific advances we still have zero idea what consciousness is
most difficult questions remain unanswered, that's why we call them difficult questions
i think it's crazy that the brain named itself.
Nothing in our reality makes sense. Energy can't be created or destroyed, and yet it exists.
>Energy can't be created or destroyed, and yet it exists.
Damn, this threw me for a loop. Not sure how to respond to it. Not being sarcastic btw, like, frick.
The game goes for all physics, in the end all energy systems are 0.
For example, say you go to the 5th floor. You go up there, consuming energy and creating potential energy to go back down (or fall or anything where energy is released all at once when you hit the earth). If you use an elevator, energy is being used but the price is paid by that system and not you, however that potential energy is still transferred to you as you go up and you release it when you go back down.
So with the total being 0, the initial energy to literally do anything shouldn't exist with our current understanding of physics.
Potential energy is a load of shit, as far as I'm concerned. It's just physicists, coping with the inability to accurately model gravity as a part of the total system with energy.
Yea it's kinda bullshit. Theres meteors and shit in space that have been flung for millions or billions of years that have been accelerating the entire time and thus technically should have potential energy that eventually approaches the speed of light (and if they collide with a planet or something it should go kaboom and wipe it out).
anon
the other rocks leech potential energy because just like how big rock pulls speedy rock
speedy rock pull on big rock
because big bang innit bruv
>big bang happens over and over
>everything gets blow out and pulled back in
>given that time has no meaning and this cycle has happened an infinite amount of times, there are times where sentient life develops
>in some alt timeline there was a possible timeline where a pokemon world exists
>also its possible that this exact universe with this exact order of events also happened several times due to infinity
its wild
>Energy can't be created or destroyed, and yet it exists.
Because energy was forged in a unique state of the universe's creation that we can never return to. Basically, when there was absolute nothingness "prior" to the big bang (prior is a bad word since technically time hadn't existed yet) there were no limitations yet either, no forces or "laws" to say, "um actually, you're not allowed to create something out of nothing because it just doesn't work like that, sweetie." In this state of infinite potential, big bang goes boom and now stuff exists (including energy), but then all that stuff starts acting upon each other and thus that laws of the universe come to be from all the interactions. But now that Pandora's Box is open (stuff exists now), there's no way to return to that state of nothingness that once held infinite potential, and thus energy can no longer be created or destroyed, only shifted around and transformed.
>yea so like here nothing exists or any concept of literally anything, let me just come into existence for no reason
>where do i get energy to come into existence or a reason to?
>dont mind me :^)
it's possible that everything that is always was
"There are two sides of a coin" is not the same analogy as a "coin toss"
I thinkthe coin toss is bullshit and the only logical thing to know is now you won't be a virgin.
I've never seen more obvious samegayging in my life.
Reminder that Adam Jensen died on the Oil Rig and the person you play as in Mankind Divided is a cloned body with his memories.
So is Shepard.
You can tell that the problem with the game comes down to the coin and it supersedes the enjoyment of the rest of the game.
realistically the game would've ended at omicron when he did the second scan, you would wake up and be lonely and never see the end of the journey, that would've been a way better twist than OOOO LOOK WE THREW THE ARK BUT THIS TIME I'M NOT PLAYING AS THE NEW COPY HAHA GET IT crap
The abyss moment in the end ruins all of the story consistency of the game for the sake of stupid shock value. Without it, there's a direct unbroken line of consciousness all the way from Montréal to the Ark.
>Montréal Simon experiences Montréal
>First copy Simon experiences being the first copy and remembers Montréal
>Second copy Simon experiences being the second copy and remembers being the first copy and remembers Montréal
>Ark copy Simon experiences being on the Ark and remembers being the second copy, the first copy, and remembers living in Montréal
>Ark copy can't remember anything that Montréal Simon experienced after the copying process, can't remember anything the first copy experienced after the copying process, and can't remember anything the second copy experienced after the copying process
>The entire story is from the perspective of the cumulative memories of the Ark copy
That would have made sense. The fact that you can see second copy Simon sperging out over still misunderstanding the copy process makes no sense. Even if you try to factor in the classic stupidity of the coin toss, because if you can see one, you should never see the other.
>The entire story is from the perspective of the cumulative memories of the Ark copy
but it's not, it's from the perspective of the Simon that gets stuck at the bottom of the ocean.
>but it's not, it's from the perspective of the Simon that gets stuck at the bottom of the ocean.
Then why am I seeing anything from the perspective of the Simon that gets to the Ark? That's what doesn't make sense. If it was only one or only the other, it would make sense. Anything else doesn't.
>Then why am I seeing anything from the perspective of the Simon that gets to the Ark?
it's a post credit scene in the third person
It's literally in first person though. You play through Ark Simon's eyes.
right, i misremembered. The simple answer is that the devs wanted their gut punch ending while also showing that simon and cat made it rather than it all being in vain
I just don't like that contrivance. Maybe they really wanted just one of their games to have a happy ending but a shame that it ruins the immersion of the storytelling.
Destroying the WAU is the brainlet take. Simon showed that it was starting to perfect the process of implanting human conciousness into robot bodies. A glorious new robot era would begin given enough time.
You are a gestalt hivemind of 36 trillion single cellular organisms combining into a organic megazord.
I don't get why he didn't just go back and chill with his clone for eternity. Immortality doesn't sound that bad if you have tolerable company.
>Geta perk that lets you reroll the coin toss
>Still lose the coin toss
The point is, YOU can never escape your own body and its mortality into a digital existence.
YOU will die with your meat.
Would the game have been better if the ending was reversed? First show the meeting on the Ark and then show him still on Earth?
im surprised that even without ever playing the game, knowing how it looks, or knowing anything about the story of the game besides word "CLONE" i figured out which game you folks were talking about
is it really worth playing it?
play it
the atmosphere alone is worth playing if you at all like underwater stuff, this game has some great underwater stuff
yes if you can handle being shit scared
If it weren't for the stonetoss bullshit they could have had a kino moment when you switch to the deep sea body where you just game over once you get in the chair and when you reload your save you're in the new body.
>they have the technology to make underwater habitats and digital Matrixes
>but can't do brain transfers
moronic game
THIS is STILL going?
Coinlets still seething