>"I'm glad you could come by for our chat Anon. Explain to me why the Phantom Thieves stealing the hearts of criminals and making them confess against their will is somehow more morally upstanding than me giving trauma victims a perfect reality."
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>zoomer's first moral relativitsm
still better than the antagonists from 3 and 4
3 had an excellent enemy.
Who? Pistol Jesus? Or the evil dorm-manager?
How were they better than Maruki?
Nyx is the best villian in all 6 persona games.
Cosmic death horror.
Nyx is only better than Yaldy because its name is easier to remember.
His plan would have been perfect if he stuck to removing only the absolute worst shit instead of deciding to personally fix every sad feeling in the world.
He didn't fix every bad feeling though. He just fixed "the core issue" which also just happened to fix a lot of surrounding issues. Futaba is socially slow, shy, and a can't handle groups of people very well. All this stems from her mother, so when that problem is fixed all those minor personality issues go away.
A lot of the character's lives improve in many areas after the central trauma is gone.
The solution was just for him to scale down his help but instead he just gets TAXI'd. What a waste.
The taxi is a metaphor. Now he helps other people get to where they want to go, rather than sending them to where he thinks they belong.
I never thought of it that way. That's actually kinda neat.
Yes, I've seen this explained before, I still think it doesn't really work. Mental illnesses are unsolvable problem (no, debilitating drugs do no not count as a solution) he would have been uniquely able to treat, and are a societal issue aside from a medical one, which fits into P5's themes but this is mostly just ignored in favor of teaching a lesson.
If you're going to talk about P5's themes, "giving up control of your very soul to someone else is bad no matter what you gain out of it" is much higher on the list than "society ignores some problems and that sucks".
>only the absolute worst shit instead of deciding to personally fix every sad feeling in the world.
I broke my mouse a few days ago
if you ask me what is the most important thing between solving world hunger or fixing my mouse, I would ask you to fix my mouse.
I think the reason is that one is a punishing act for breaking the law, which was an active choice on the criminal's part, while the other is essentially forced upon the recipient despite them having very little to no input on their own trauma. Most people don't watch their families die horribly in car accidents because they make the choice to do so. If they have no choice in the issue, forcing "his solution" upon them is ultimately worse.
It's about choice and he's not giving them any.
I wish they'd gone a little further into detail about how exactly his reality bending worked. They went as far as to say that the figures who came back to life weren't even cognitions, they were real people. How does that work?
What about when two realities clash? If person A needs person B to die to be happy, and B needs A to die to be happy, what happens then?
For example, my dad murdered someone, and the parents of the victim wish him dead to ease their trauma, but doing so will cause me trauma because my dad's dead. Who gets their reality? My dad can't be both dead and alive.
In Nocturne, it was implied that everyone got their OWN reality. Completely perfect for them, but there was no interaction between the realities, meaning messy issues like consistency weren't a thing. If everyone shares a reality and everyone's reality has been altered then everyone's reality need to function intertwined with everyone else's reality and this shit just seems unfeasible long-term.
You're desperately overthinking a game made for mongs.
>For example, my dad murdered someone, and the parents of the victim wish him dead to ease their trauma, but doing so will cause me trauma because my dad's dead. Who gets their reality? My dad can't be both dead and alive.
Your dad doesn't murder anybody and it also fixes the potential of you getting mental anguish from your father being a fricking murderer
Yeah but how deep does it go? Let's say Maruki fixes my pops, he no longer wants to kill people. But in order to do that they also fix my grandpa who no longer beat my dad as a child and therefor doesn't turn my dad into a murderer. But uh-oh, sadly my grandma got wet to my grandpa beating people up, so when he stopped they never made my dad. So what now?
Don't forget that Maruki changes reality to something pleasant, but he can't change your actual feelings about reality, so he can't make my grandma a little bawd for my now Saint Grandpa over here.
Probably doesn't go too deep and / or too much into the past
Everything that he changes happens pretty much in the present
Plus don't some npcs point out that they find something wrong with the sudden change? iirc in the main shibuya metro entrance has that couple that complains about shit, and during Maruki's reality there's only one npc now and comments how they feel someone's or something's missing, so to say, that in your scenario your grandma would still be wet for your grandpa but doesn't know why exactly
Yeah that's probably true, but now we're in "don't think about it too much"-territory, because do this enough and people are bound to start noticing.
It kinda feels like the universe is adjusting to Maruki's will, and kinda snapping back into a somewhat functional timeline even with his changes.
>Yeah that's probably true, but now we're in "don't think about it too much"-territory, because do this enough and people are bound to start noticing
Well yeah that's how literally the phantom thieves are
Probably they were the only ones to become self-aware due to their relationships, knowledge about the metaverse and changing hearts
>It kinda feels like the universe is adjusting to Maruki's will, and kinda snapping back into a somewhat functional timeline even with his changes.
Well, unlike the phantom thieves, Maruki doesn't make people face their wrongs, and as they aren't aware of it, chances are that if they are truly evil or willingly moronic, they will probably fall into the same errors again.
>For example, my dad murdered someone, and the parents of the victim wish him dead to ease their trauma, but doing so will cause me trauma because my dad's dead. Who gets their reality? My dad can't be both dead and alive.
Maruki makes it so your dad never murdered anyone, and he rewrites the parents' desires so that they want something else and fulfills that for them instead. That's what the psychology test in his palace was all about; it doesn't matter how much you want something, if Maruki considers it harmful to yourself or others you're getting brainwashed into wanting something else.
It's it literally Remember Me or what was that TPS?
>For example, my dad murdered someone
Anon he's literally an omnipotent god he can rewrite past, present and make any future possible. Your dad would have never murdered someone because Maruki says so. The end.
>Anon he's literally an omnipotent god
lmao
But no, he is not, and never was, and if he was he wouldn't act in such a manner, or allow such issues to happen to begin with.
Only the Axiom, plus some other, are the strongest.
>But no, he is not
He literally is if you don't stop him, the game is very clear about it. Maruki's reality and the "real" world would become one and no one would be able to challenge him. We're talking about a world in which Maruki has won, not the last semester.
>Only the Axiom
>but m-muh SMT power levels
Persona games have barely any canonical relation to each other let alone mainline games
>He literally is if you don't stop him
If.
>If.
The discussion was started by an anon asking about how Maruki would have solved a particular paradoxical problem in which two people happines could not cohexist together. Again we're talking about a world in which he has NOT been stopped. The answer is that if he had not been stopped he would have been an omnipotent god thus no paradox can exist as he can rewrite reality as he sees fit. If you're a sadist who enjoy people suffering he could simply make you into not being a sadist since the day you were born. The end. He would have turned Akechi into a nice guy loved by his dad Shido who actually never abandoned him. That's why Akechi fricking hates him, he's background is so fricked up he would have to basically be rewritten into an entirely different person to be happy. So you have no agency because Maruki is pulling ALL of the strings and your identity/memory is almost completely different. Might as well be dead at that point.
anon they cant understand
its a thread arguing about the morality and scope of marukis persona power wtf you think ppl are gonna talk about, how bout you just post OP is a homosexual instead its makes more sense
I would guess that if you have a desire that conflicts with another person's then one or possibly both of these desires are warped, and are warped due to trauma specifically, so with the trauma removed no one has a warped desire that conflicts with another human being's.
>literally had his spirit broken to become a puppet for an Outer God or an entity pretending as one
What. He awoken to his persona the same as anyone else. His persona does what he wants. He isn't broken by shit.
You don't understand. It's not mentioned or otherwise stated but it's apparent, his tragedy is what pushed him to become what he is, and that's how those abstract entities can propagate, finding a weak link to subvert.
Are you schizophrenic? Powerful emotions in the world of Persona can cause you to awaken to a persona if you're under the right circumstances. There are no "Outer Gods" beyond Philly and that other homosexual and they've not been canon in 3 games now.
Persona setting is just a shell, Outer entities are external to any fiction, like any other.
And you base this on what? What Maruki has is clearly a persona. He calls it that, the group of heroes calls it that, and so does everyone else. His power is within the limits of what a persona can let you achieve (if you have the right one, apparently, see Akechi).
IRL meta, naturally. You don't think those entities are mere tales, do you?
Regardless, don't bother with this argument. Disregard as schizo and move on.
I don't understand how he lost. Didn't Ryuji say something along the lines of "he can just wish us out of reality" or whatever?
How could any amount of fighting possibly defeat a guy who could just close his eyes and remove your existence?
Probably has a lot to do with the fact that he doesn't WANT to wish anyone out of existence(in his mind, that's murder). He repeats, over and over, that he wishes for you to understand his point of view and go along with it. The fight, when it finally happens, isn't murder, it is(to him) self-defense of his dream.
>MARUKI DID NOTHING WRONG
Malpractice for starters.
He's not a MD. He's a councilor. He hasn't taken any hippocratic oath.
Phantom Thieves were the villains, nothing you can say refutes what he did to create a better world. The phantom thieves were hypocrites, since they used the meta verse to change people and admit their faults. If the game portrayed that losing free will and showing how a happy society is wrong then I’d argue against him.
If someone showed up at your door and said "give yourself to me and you'll be happy forever" you'd shut the door on their face.
I don't know about that. Call me a sheep or whatever, but if the person in question had a history of making literal perfect realities for people and this was verifiable, as it is in P5R, I don't know if I'd be that quick to dismiss him.
I never understood this "pain and suffering is necessary" shit. If I was offered perfection and eternal happiness guaranteed at the price of freedom I'm not sure I'd pass on that.
And what shall be the price, did you not think about that?
The price is my freedom. I get absolute perfect happiness, whatever form that might take, but in exchange that decision is the last decision I will ever really make. Everything from that point going forward is made up "for" me, and even though I might feel like I'm making decisions, I'm really not.
If that's a price worth paying is up to the individual, but there's no doubt that it IS the price.
Happiness isn't an end goal of life. This isn't merely degeneracy, that's simply pointless existence, mah boi.
Are you really content with being an actual mechanism?
The goal is up to the individual, isn't it? What you consider the goal, might not be what your neighbor considers the goal.
And a lot of people want to be happy. So happiness is the goal. If you can be handed that AND drop the stress of having to make it yourself, I'm sure a lot of people would pick it.
What the individual decides is the point of their existence is up to them, but happiness isn't the worst thing to aim for in my book.
Simply too terrible, but oh well.
Explain what's wrong with my thinking.
Human life that willfully tosses away its agency is an inhuman, weak willed existence. An auto-reduction, if you may call it that.
How do you figure that? Everyone who participates in society gives up their freedom to some degree, so are they all inhuman for doing so? Isn't the very act of cooperation a form of compromise of free will in return for greater result? Is all that degenerate because you are not being 100% true to yourself 100% of the time?
Every action you take negates at least one other action, directly or indirectly, so even freedom is always going to be limited inherently because you can't "do it all". Does that mean we're all tossing away agency and making ourselves inhuman?
>Everyone who participates in society gives up their freedom to some degree,
Not everyone, and they don't truly abandon their agency if they're remotely normal, nor is cooperation in any way decreases one's agency in truly severe sense, it's merely an agreement. Likewise, cooperation doesn't necessitate compromises.
Your example about eternal happiness is an extreme one, final, hence the issue.
>Not everyone
Absolutely everyone does, yes. If you agree to partake in society, you have to have something in common with that society. Be it language, norms, rules, laws, culture, whatever. You have to agree with that society on SOMETHING if you chose to partake. And the second you do, that choice is no longer up to you. Because you can't partake in that society, where murder is bad, and still murder people if your free will demands that you do so. You can't have both.
You can never interact with, or take part in, another human life beyond your own because you can never know if that individual has influenced your free will beyond what it would have been otherwise, thus you are now no longer really free. Freedom degrades the second you're born.
>You can't have both.
Yes, you can, one can have anything. I agree with what I agree, for my own reasons. It's not I who co-exists with the society, it is the society that coexists with me. It's all about what you do and how you do it, ultimately.
Except reality changed instantly Joker didn’t notice the changes.
why didn't he just bring kasumi back to life
persona 5 is just turn your brain off slop
Because he didn't have the power to do that when he was counseling Yoshizawa. He only got the power to force his reality onto other people when Mementos flooded the out of the ground.
Because sumire wanted to be like kasumi, not wish her back. She envied her sister and already accepted her death.
Ding ding ding, people often miss this, Sumire would still be a loser if Kasumi were still alive and overshadowing her
maruki should not have been in this game
p5 was literally not cut out to deal with a character of his caliber
i'm not saying he's incredibly deep or whatever, though i will say that a big bad guy being a therapist who just wants what's best for you is a novel and excellent theme
but holy frick p5 was not a game that was equipped to deal with any degree of moral relativity
(You)r response to the man who personally ruined your life and is about to take control of your country is: you don't have a response, because your party members yell "your a bad guy and are like evil and stuff!" at him instead
there are no options for debate at any point in this game, and that is fine up until the royale point because up until this point you have been fighting total caricatures, purely evil for the sake of being evil people
and that's fine, it's a jarpig, we're not expecting much else here
but then royale suddenly throws someone who HAS a stance worth debating against you
he explicitly states he'd like to talk things out if possible, he's reasonable, he's willing, he does not see you as an enemy
but NOPE the fricking serial killer who murdered several of your party member's family members pipes up and says FRICK YOU BUDDY WE GONNA FIGHT and thus you do
maruki's everything gets boiled down offscreen into a soundbite that you the player have to say no to several times, and then later maybe you get the chance to say "hmmm okay fine sure go ahead with your plan"
this game is not cut out to have a villain more morally complicated than satan himself
the framework is not enabled to deal with someone you might have to argue with
so instead you have a fistfight on top of a giant robot with someone you should by all rights have no fricking reason to fistfight but it's cool so ???
tl:dr maruki is a great villain in the wrongest fricking place they could have put him
an absolute fricking waste in all respects
I'd argue Maruki was a nice spin on the theme of P5.
>chaotic messy freedom versus calm apathetic slavery
Maruki rephrased the question by making it:
>chaotic messy freedom versus perfect happy delusion
but what i mean is the game hasn't given you a framework to make any kind of choice here
you've been put up against villains who are pure villains in every sense of the word
there's never been any sort of in-game argument over whether kamoshida or any of the others had a point
but now suddenly they throw this guy at you and are like "wow what a moral conundrum" but the basic game framework has not changed in the slightest, you're just going to slog through the dungeon until you beat him up and win because nothing has changed
thematically he's great
metaphorically he's great
gameplay-wise he's a fricking waste because there was never any option other than to either punch him in the dick or else take your shitty bad ending
NTA but you absolutely have the choice. You can pick to accept his reality and that's your lot, GG, that's your ending.
This is literally a gameplay choice the game gives you.
it's hard to call that a choice when it's like deliberately choosing the bad end in a vn
it's a token at best and the game hammers in the whole "you picked the WRONG FRICKING THING YOU DOOFUS" part
the fact that you choose it after beating him up several times and not because you came to any sort of agreement is the key
it's just a throwaway nod instead of any sort of agreement
that's why i said he's wasted on this game, this is not a game that is meant to have any sort of complex moral dilemmas
you fight bad guys and win
>here's a not-so-bad guy! whatcha gonna doooo~
>jk you fight him and win
>here's a shitty bad end if you decide you don't want to win
p5 was not meant to have moral dilemmas in any way shape or form
your party members (because you never have any say in the matter) are thoroughly goody-goody two-shoes in every way (except akechi but he's just there to be fujobait) and have no actual opinions other than "do the right thing"
there was never an actual choice here
>it's hard to call that a choice when it's like deliberately choosing the bad end in a vn
A lot of people don't think so. I'm not sure I do, personally, consider this the "bad ending".
The only thing you miss with this ending, realistically, is that you don't get to fight the last boss because that wouldn't make any sense if you agree with the guy. You get like 40+ minutes of unique cut scenes, voice acting, animations and tons of unique artwork for beating the game that way.
There's nothing wrong with getting "your ending", especially if you actually want to make that choice yourself, which the game lets you do.
The only reason to not go with it is because you either do actually want to fight the last boss, or you don't agree with Maruki. If both of those are untrue, you should genuinely go for the ending you personally like. That's why they put it in there.
it is deliberately framed as the wrong ending
you do not get a proper ending
you do not get the epilogue every other game has had
you are mad to put these on the same level
it's a throwaway pacifier in an attempt to pretend they made some kind of moral dilemma
once again i repeat you do not get this ending because you talked to maruki and agreed with his ideas because you do not even get the chance to do this
you fight him multiple times and then you get the choice to go "oh hey sorry nah i dind't mean that we cool"
there was no exchange of ideas because this game is not built around exchanging ideas
there was no conversation because you the player can only communicate in multiple choice answers of 1-2 words
this was not a fricking debate, but he was a character with ideals that deserved to be debated
whether you agreed with him or not, he deserved more than a multiple choice "no ur wrong i fite u" answer and that's where i feel the game failed him (and you the player for trying to fool you into thinking this was in any way a choice or an exchange of ideas)
put him in fricking disco elysium or even dooce excks human revolution and i'd be overjoyed, he'd be perfect for it
but not here
>once again i repeat you do not get this ending because you talked to maruki and agreed with his ideas because you do not even get the chance to do this
Now you're entering schitzo land. You do get a choice, as shown above.
At no point does the game say "you suck for getting the wrong end", or even say it's a bad ending. You got your lot because you made your choice.
It sounds like what you want is a chance to talk Maruki OUT of his beliefs, but that's literally impossible at the point you realize what his beliefs actually are.
goddammit i want to sleep
no, i just plain think he should not have been in this game
you can't talk him out of things but he's also not so far gone he can't be talked to
but you're never given the opportunity to talk to him because a) the game's format does not allow for conversations that aren't you delivering one-liners
and b) the fricking murderer preempts you for most of the conversations you have
he deserves a conversation because he is imploring you for one, he almost wants to be talked down
but you cannot possibly have a conversation with him due to the format the game's already taken
it's like throwing a morally ambiguous character into fricking tetris
you don't have the capability to deal with this so you just slot him into the same place you put the last couple bricks and he disappears like everything else
what's the fricking point?
I don't understand what you want or how the game could have been made better to suit you.
The point of the game is for you to make a black or white decision based on your morals, values and beliefs. Your choices are to either accept what he's offering, or not. That's the challenge. And then defending your decision, through combat or through cope, is the "hard part".
>The point of the game is for you to make a black or white decision based on your morals, values and beliefs
yes
this is my beef
why did they introduce a deliberately morally grey character into a game that has so far been purely black and white and has given you nothing other than white tools to deal with it
do not tell me that maruki isn't supposed to be morally grey because regardless of your end judgement holy frick did they ever try to frame him that way
i am saddened that an interesting villain was wasted on a game with the moral depth of The Very Hungry Caterpillar
i am butthurt that i spent 100+ hours on a thing that toed the line between fun and eh only to trip really fricking hard at the finish line
i'm also drunk, which is the only reason why i bothered responding to this obvious bait thread
it's been fun but i am actually going to pass out for real now
Alright, nice to get your reflections anyway Anon. Good night.
>it's a token at best and the game hammers in the whole "you picked the WRONG FRICKING THING YOU DOOFUS" part
No it doesn't. It does the exact opposite because it gives you the achivement for having beaten the game if you accept his offer. The developers even said that they wanted people to agree with him and to not punish the players if they did. Its an extremely stark contrast to what you're actually describing.
wow an achievement, those are super rare and precious
cause you never get those for bad endings
yeah aight frick this i'm off to bed
>cause you never get those for bad endings
Yes, as the series has never done this. And you are, inexpicably, implying that its an achievement for the bad ending when it is not. Agreeing with Maruki and disagreeing with him results in the same achievement of beating the game. It is clearly intended that the player can come to their own conclusion and recieve a reasonable ending. The only way you can interpret the agreement ending as being a "bad" ending is if you simply look at it through a content-brained view, in which anything that does not lead to more content is innately worse.
Absolute fricking megakino symmetry
How did the Royal team do it?
Kino...pure kino..
>screams like a soiboi who broke his Switch when you beat him
Embarrassing. This is your God, Marukigays?
>doesn't understand emotional catharsis
I knew this was a board of autists
That's not catharsis, that's an unstable man having a meltdown, cope + seethe + accept the truth
>emotional catharsis
I don't trust handing the world over to emotionally unstable people
>"Why won't you homosexuals just die?!"
A bit on the nose, Atlus.
It's like anon always deliberately forgets this is a choice.
I actually remember going back and trying this and being quite impressed. It's a real ending with actual new content. It's not just "lol you suck, game over".
The only issue for me with this reality is that morgana's a homosexual
in fact that's the game's whole issue, it's just that the new semester makes it even worse with such homosexualry
I'd argue that the last month is still tacked on. Shooting God in the face on Christmas was a better ending if you asked me, and the last semester kinda shits on that.
If I was to encourage someone to play Persona 5 I'd absolutely recommend they not aim for the "Royal" ending the first time and instead consider that something of a weird bonus.
I played the original Persona 5 and the Yaldabaoth ending for me is such a disassociation with the rest of the game I didn't like it at all
Shooting at Yaldabaoth using Satanael doesn't hit the same as shooting at Maruki
That's fine. We can agree to disagree.
The shooting of Maruki felt like a cheap copy to me.
That isn't the last hit of the boss fight.
>his screams during his section
Actual fricking kino. His voice actor knocked it out of the park
>When it grows to be too much, too painful... Every person deserves to escape that!
>No matter how much you try, or work for so long, the smallest injustice can wipe it all out, leave you with nothing...
>Don't you, OF ALL PEOPLE, understand that?!
>Don't you, OF ALL PEOPLE, understand that?!
>"Even then, you go on!"
I fricking kneel, Joker
One of the few scenes that are actually better in English than in Japanese.
Of course, but I posted that screenshot and commented on it since that anon mentioned shooting god at his face
This part is also extremely kino and makes up for the total of the ending, its more grounded and closer to (you) and the Phantom Thieves when compared to Yaldabaoth
I always felt Yald's fight was more a fight for the Phantom Thieves, while Maruki was a fight for the player character.
Both were great, but Yald got the better soundtrack: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cY8Zg715d-g
>cover
At least post the proper one: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QYTB9eWxZJk
>Yald got the better soundtrack
My point stands.
I'd take the Life Will Change part of I Believe: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xbSe0eX7oS4
Don't compare anything to Life will Change: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CGwH6rZk7VM
I was gifted P5R so I went in pretty skeptical of the game as a whole but I have to admit that last run through Maruki's palace with this playing really landed for me.
How is it? It’s been done before and is a common theme for the law routes in SMT mainline games
mmm they've done "i want what's best for you" types all the time and that's fine but an actual high school counselor gives it that extra bit of oomph seeing as how you are playing a high schooler and presumably looking for guidance
if you know of other games where specifically a guidance counselor is the big bad villain i would be interested to know them
It isn't a debate, even if the antagonist has a point worth debating. Maruki is forcing his will upon everyone, even if that will is "you will be happy", he's still not leaving you any choice in the matter. His goal is, as he says, to make the entire world happy with THEIR reality.
Not to mention you're wrong on another point, every villain, from THEIR perspective, have an argument for their actions. They usually spout some of it right after they're defeated:
>I won and Olympic medal, and I'm really good at what I do so I should get to pick what I want as a price.
>I've given up years of my life helping pupils, giving them roofs, food and a place to perfect their art, so I deserve some credit too.
>I've been bullied and beaten by the bigger "smarter" dogs on the block, but now it's my turn to be the big dog so why shouldn't I do that to get what I want from the weaklings.
>Everyone has stepping stones, and everyone is willing to break the law and do bad shit to climb to the next stone, so I will do that too and ascend to the highest plain there is: politics.
>I know what's best, I know how to make what's best happen, I am chosen to do this so I will do it no matter what.
All these are potential debate topics, from the villains perspectives, and they don't see themselves in the wrong. Because their desires are twisted to rationalize it.
i don't know how you can put those on the same level when none of those characters are willing to talk these things through
none of them want to debate this with you
none of them are interested in sitting down and talking it out instead of fighting
none of them explicitly say they do not want to fight you and would rather come to a non-violent agreement
these are NOT on the same level and you are mad to think so
None of them want to debate or talk to you because they don't have to. You're always fighting "up" in this game, and thus why you end up fighting their shadows, because that evens the playing field.
Shido is not going to be talked down from his political platform if some kid tells him he's wrong. Why on Earth would he want to debate you?
When you meet his shadow you meet that EXACT will incarnate, the one that believes this absolutely, so he's not going to talk to you either.
The only reason it doesn't work this way with Maruki is because you're not confronting his shadow, but a real person.
The reason HE won't talk to you is because he's X amount of years into his thesis, and all he's seeing is the improvements he's making to the world and the people in it and the oath he is now fulfilling.
What you're missing, is that every villain, including Maruki, isn't interested in half-measures. You either accept what the villain wants blindly or you fight, there is no middle ground, not with any of them. Their conviction and their twisted desires prevent that.
maruki is a stupid butthole
If you can’t face reality, you’re a coward.
>Explain to me why the Phantom Thieves stealing the hearts of criminals and making them confess against their will is somehow more morally upstanding than me giving trauma victims a perfect reality.
It's not; Phantom Thieves got their punishment, and that theme is further expanded in Strikers
I will never play this game because Ganker spoilered everything for me. Thanks guys.
P5R came out in 2019. You've had 4 years Anon.
I didn't say I got spoilered today specifically. But thanks to Ganker I even know some of the characters names.
The game makes it crystal clear that what the Phantom Thieves were doing wasn't right and made things worse overall as it gave Yaldabba-Dabba-Doo the needed power to control the world.
And while not presented well in the game the other issue with Marucci boys plans here is that you are trusting one person both to stay the right path and not to be replaced. Moment he has any (more) mental issues, the whole world is effected, if at any point he loses power and/or dies the impact is either a complete collapse of everything and things get much worse than he was ever there or some other person takes over and you'll get worse and worse results each generation.
Because in the end you would give the entirety of mankind's will and freedom to one man basically making him a god.
Sure in the game he's unironically a good guy with good intentions but what if he wasn't? Or what if he started to change and become evil? Then nobody could stop a literal God.
It's like saying dictatorship is the best regime because if the dictator is good then it's fine.
>It's like saying dictatorship is the best regime because if the dictator is good then it's fine.
there are quite a lot of people who believe that
>It's like saying dictatorship is the best regime because if the dictator is good then it's fine.
Somewhat ill-applicable example, and one that's actually correct too, but mostly in the latter part. Benevolent/enlightened monarchy is an excellent concept.
There are no better or worse regimes, that's something that's specific to moral and competence states of some select implementation.
>It's like saying dictatorship is the best regime because if the dictator is good then it's fine.
That's true though
would you rather have a competent captain or a democracy among varying degrees of competence
What is the boss sequence like in Japanese? I think the English performance is one of the best in a videogame. The actor absolutely nailed the total anguish Maruki feels for the suffering of every single person.
Well he did get diagnosed with cancer during recording and died shortly after release.
>you're sad? I'll mindrape you into believing you're someone else entirely
>you don't like that? guess you die
at least post the kamoshida bait if you want a persna 5 discussion, that one is moronic enough to get replies
Maruki apologists pretending he explicitly says he's going to prevent nuclear bombings, cancer, and searching for contradictions like this is an ace attorney game when they're probably putting more thought into it than atlus.
It's a badly written fanfic tier epilogue where characters resurrect for fanservice's sake, it clashes with the rest of the game, contradicts prior events and makes the main cast look like fricking morons.
Yet another garbage atlus dlc.
>Joker and friends confirmed for China adventure
Persona 5 Wuhan Edition.
>Game about rebelling about an unfair society
>made in china
That doesnt sound right
Rebelling against*
I would pledge my life to Dr Maruki. If only real world religions were so sensible and human instead of worshipping psycho tyrants that 'test' you by killing your kids
Yeah, this tyrant only expects blind obedience and complete and total relinquishment of free will. Clearly this is far superior.
So like Christianity but without gaslighting you into believing it's your fault you're going to the Hell God created unless he saves you from it
But Maruki also take out your free will if your free willed decisions made you sad. Like that one artist who he made someone else, he maybe happier that way but we all lost that art.
What are we if not our decisions, good and bad alike.
Anyone who thinks Maruki was right clearly hasn't read Brave New World.
I don't even understand the debate. Can't Maruki just give Joker and the Phantom Thieves their own reality where they think they beat him, while he keeps doing what he's doing?
Who's to say that's not what happened?
Maruki spent time with every Phantom Thief, but Joker the most. He WANTS to convince Joker he's right. He needs that validation after essentially saying that Joker is the reason he came to the conclusion he did.
If he can't convince Joker that means he's wrong.
>the literal embodiment of you will own nothing and you will be happy
>Ganker defends this
Why am I not surprised
The difference is our "you will own nothing and be happy" is based on corporate greed and a reduction in what it is to be happy. Maruki is whatever your literal paradise is is now your reality. They're hardly comparable.
Except that's wrong, you frickin goober. Maruki's reality explicitly removes any ambition or drive to excel from everyone, it's why you hear people who once spoke about wanting to become sports stars all of a sudden being content in their dead-end fast food job, because Maruki deemed FOR THEM that that dream was too 'unrealistic'. That's not someone's 'happiest reality', that's brainwashing people to be complacent with mediocrity. There is no moral way to support his bullshit.
It's more like "you will have everything and be happy I gave it to you"
How the frick did the Phantom Theives commit a real world crime by exclusively committing crimes in a parallel world?
It turns out both those worlds are connected.
But how could you enforce laws for a different world?
because the actions taken in said world influenced the actions in the real one with demonstrable evidence
What about those who want to struggle and earn their rewards in life? Are you going to deny their efforts and strengths?
Yes. Frick your struggle.
>People should get what they want, not what they need
What an infantile mindset.
>I should be the one person to determine what everyone needs
What a homosexualy perspective
>Noooo you can't be better than me because.... JUST BECAUSE OKAYY?!?!?
Yeah, like I said. Infantile mindset. Is that what you told your parents growing up too?
You sound like a government stooge
Wanting to be a God is the epitome of an infantile mindset, you illiterate fricking baboon. Read a single book made in the last 2000 years. Actually, you're probably a degenerate week so try FMA Brotherhood, that's probably more your speed.
They're hypocrite and teenager
There is no sex in Persona. Stop projecting your fetish-shit onto a video game.
She needs to be pinned down and have a rough correction for thinking she can have her way with a shadow clone of you instead of the real you
When I started Strikers the Prisons seemed cool because I thought they'd be people trapped by their pain or something but instead it was a total repeat of p5 lol
The deadline bad ending for Maruki is dark as frick
I’m gonna beat him up without hesitation in my current NG+ run
It's weirdly sad, yeah.
I don't get it.
Before the scene it's concluded that your team can't reach Maruki because they're still conflicted about if he's actually right or not. They discuss it and decide to push on. Maruki shows up in Joker's head and essentially says he's going to give everyone else their perfect reality, but if Joker really wants not part of it, then that's fine.
Joker is then left alone, with he knowledge, depressed and unloved by friends who live in their own fantasies without him.
That's my interpretation anyway.
>*with his knowledge
> just be a doll for someone elses wish lol
hard pass
I disagree. I think it was great that Shiho was raped. in fact, I think she should've been raped again.
>Random guy wants to control everyone's lives
>Ganker loves the idea
>Big yellow head wants to destroy evil demons and let everyone live in ignorant bliss free from any bad
>Ganker screams and pisses their pants
I don't get it
Lack of intelligence.
>I don't get it
Maruki can give you perfect escapism, he's basically a "good" tyrant, he doesn't care as long as you're happy. Yhwh doesn't give a shit about your happiness he just wants absolute control over all of reality, he's closer to Yaldabaoth than Maruki.
tl;dr basically Maruki is the perfect daddy for sad manchildren Yhwh is just an butthole
>he doesn't care as long as you're happy.
He doesn't care about your happiness only that you don't get "hurt".
People are easily duped by flowery words and never realize that absolute power always turns someone into a tyrant. YHVH was the same originally, promising paradise without suffering if they just did what he told them to do. Then a snake showed up and he went full moron for the rest of existence.
>Third trimester has the best content in the game but only lets you play 1 dungeon and most of the month is used on mandatory cutscenes
>trimester
>Maruki did nothing wrong
His plan is literally just Yaldabaoth's except it tries to appeal to emotion rather than authority. They even follow the same Jap mindset of anyone stepping out of line is problematic and should be taken care of the only difference being of getting Yaldabaoth deleting you out of existence Maruki instead mindrapes you into being compliant and "happy". Nothing more than a shit rehashed villain
All the mementos requests were just that: REQUESTS. Individuals who were individually concerned over or hurt by someone in need of a change of heart reached out personally, and the Phantom Thieves answered personally.
The one time the Phantom Thieves went after someone they didn't have anything on to begin with, it turned out to be a con. It was the case they regretted most.
There's a clear lesson there.
The Thieves help themselves, those close to them, and those who ask for their help specifically.
Maruki attempts to "help" everyone at once- which is not only an overreach, but an impossibility.
Maybe it's not true that only you know yourself. Maybe that's an oversimplification. But it's a fact that you don't know everyone. And since the desires of all humanity are going to be incompatible anyway, why not start by helping those you're aligned with?
It's that simple. Take care of yourself first. The individual matters.
Maruki is the only one who can actually provide help to everyone. Thanks to Azathoth and him taking over Mementos, Maruki has access to all the information in the collective unconscious, or at least whatever part of it Mementos shows. He, of all people, is the only one who can actually "know" everyone.
I suggested you start by helping those you know not because knowledge is the only barrier to helping someone, but because some desires are mutually exclusive and helping your friends makes it less likely for your desires to conflict with theirs.
Maruki brainwashes people if their desires are outside his ability to grant.
So why did he do it in the first place?
because his girlfriend left him for chad
It's not even "reality", it's just a denial of the facts, that's why you could break all the PTs out of it. Who's to say people won't have that happen later on? He's just making the world itself cope instead of nutting up and dealing with the shit they're dealt. There's no magical solution to everything and there never will be.
Except there literally is a magic solution. Maruki is connected directly to people unconscious. He knows what everyone needs and can deliver aid on mass.
>He knows what everyone needs
and will disregard at least 50% of it because human desires are mutually exclusive
Way to miss my point entirely you dumbass, it's NOT FRICKING REAL. NONE OF IT IS REAL. The whole reason he's the antagonist of the arc is because he's making a fake reality for people to fricking cope in.
Reality is what he wants it to be. If reality is just what information your 5 senses feed you, then what he gives people IS real.
Reality doesn't fricking fall apart the second someone tries to prove otherwise. It's not real, the game goes out of its way to prove this.
Except it does when he does it. Futabas mom is alive, everyone related to Futaba's mom knows it, and everyone who sees her on the street treats her as if she's always been alive. When your power extends not just to the target, but secondary and tertiary associates of the target, you have a pretty thorough control of what reality "is".
Yea just ignore the fact that when Futaba herself realizes her mom is dead she disappears you fricking idiot. Did you even play the game? The fact alone that all the PTs can get snapped out of his fake reality proves that it's not real whatsoever, even if it takes effort that's still flat out not a thing in reality.
Futaba didn't realize shit. Did YOU play the game? Joker has to tell her that something's wrong. If he kept his prostitute-mouth shut Futaba would have lived an objectively better life and so would most of his friends.
Are you deliberately ignoring what I'm saying?
>The fact alone that all the PTs can get snapped out of his fake reality proves that it's not real whatsoever, even if it takes effort that's still flat out not a thing in reality.
Respond to this, moron.
Every single person on Joker's team were happy in their reality. None of them were "snapped out" of anything for a full month without Joker specifically despite having very active social lives besides Joker.
It is heavily implied that only Joker, and maybe Akechi, even have the ability to snap people out of anything.
Hell, do you see those little speech bubbles that come up during the loading screens? In those the new reality is often questioned, but never ONCE is a single person's new reality shattered in those.
If you want to take it a step further than that (beyond just namecalling), any reality can be shattered. Including the one you live in now. Hypnosis, therapy, torture, manipulation, propaganda, social conditioning and other methods can easily change what a person perceives as real. Meaning that even people who live in what you define as "real reality" are essentially just as brainwashed as the ones in Maruki's reality, with the only exception that THEY are probably much happier.
If all it takes is one person who knows, FOR SURE, what reality used to be like, for the """new reality""" to shatter completely and most traces of it to disappear, then the """new reality""" is not reality. It's a delusion.
Then all reality is delusion as every single person on earth can have their reality, the "real reality" shattered just as easily.
The hard truth is that reality is subjective, not objective, and there are people in huts in Africa who have a completely different interpretation of reality than what you have. And both can be shattered given the right person at the right time.
>Then all reality is delusion as every single person on earth can have their reality, the "real reality" shattered just as easily.
Fricking when you moron? Nothing gets shattered the same way as anything in Maruki's fake bullshit. You're pulling shit out of your ass because you'd rather live in a world of cope than reality itself.
Jesus, are you actually too stupid to understand what I'm saying to you?
Your friend wouldn't believe that because as we see in the game Maruki's reality effects people beyond the original target too. Have any of you people actually played this game?
So you're telling me that if my friend randomly, GENUINELY believed something in conflict with my reality, and told me IN EARNEST, then my perception would warp to fit his?
That's not how it fricking WORKS.
Yes. That is literally how it works in the game.
Your friend would never have that belief at all the nanosecond your reality was imprinted upon you. We see this. In the game.
I am saying everyone's reality, imprinted by Maruki or not, can be changed if the right person presents the right argument at the right time. This isn't something exclusive to Maruki's realities.
But after having tried to explain this to you a million different ways, I'm honestly bored of you. You have a too limited understanding of what the term "reality" actually entails and you're unwilling to expand it so we're not talking about the same topics.
You're literally too unintelligent to understand a fricking Persona game.
>Yes. That is literally how it works in the game.
The evidence is OVERWHELMINGLY in favor of this being a mechanic of Maruki's world, not the world itself. Only things that are delusions created by Maruki ever disappear in this fashion when challenged. The real world does not change because its inhabitants believe something else about it... at least, not until Yaldabaoth tries to overlay Mementos upon the real world.
You are confusing the mechanics of the Metaverse with the mechanics of reality.
>Jesus, are you actually too stupid to understand what I'm saying to you?
You're the one continually ignoring or brushing off the fact that you can fundamentally change Maruki's fake reality just by telling people what they're seeing is wrong. It doesn't matter that Joker is the only one who could do it because there's nobody in actual reality that can happen to. It doesn't matter if people have different living situations in different countries because reality itself will always stay the same no matter where you are regardless of what's being said.
>walking somewhere with my mom
>friend walks up and tells me my mom died years ago
>mom doesn't disappear because she was actually fricking real
What about this don't you fricking get?
>It is heavily implied that only Joker, and maybe Akechi, even have the ability to snap people out of anything.
Various NPCs break themselves out though, like the little girl with the dead dog and this girl
>The fact alone that all the PTs can get snapped out of his fake reality proves that it's not real whatsoever
Their cognition changed. P5 reality is based on cognition and they refocused theirs on the original reality. If Maruki gains total control of Mementos via merge then this stops being a problem as there is no other reality for them to remember.
>P5 reality is based on cognition
Jesus fricking Christ, do Marukigays really?
Cognition changes reality in the Metaverse specifically. The Phantom Thieves being forgotten almost killed them specifically because reality had been partially merged with the Metaverse. That's how Maruki pulled off his trick too.
>The fact alone that all the PTs can get snapped out of his fake reality proves that it's not real whatsoever, even if it takes effort that's still flat out not a thing in reality.
There are so many fricking people that miss this point: Maruki's reality is not truly real during the month you play. His power hasn't fully manifested, and that's why you have the deadline. It's the day his powers are fully realized and the new reality is completely manifested. The breaks in the temporary reality are because his powers are still unstable.
>The breaks in the temporary reality are because his powers are still unstable
These games are made by the same company as SMT. They're SMT SPINOFFS. Have you seen a law route? EVER? "Everything's perfect, just ignore the cognitive dissonance! It'll clear up eventually!" may as well be YHVH's slogan.
That has nothing to do with this, because Maruki's not create a world for the glory of YHVH. The game itself provides a clear explanation, so I don't see why you're trying to bring up other games to support your rationale. Maruki's reality was not fully manifested during January. It's that simple. There's no bigger, more subtle reason.
>YHVH wasn't involved so this supernatural benevolent dictator who's going to mind control the entire universe for a new status quo is totally okay actually :*~~
Law route is law route is law route, dumbass.
You're free to keep looking at the walls around you for a way out while the map is right in front of you. I really don't understand why you can't accept, or worse, completely ignore, the clear reason the game gives in favor for your own explanation, and somehow think you're on some intellectual highground. But you do you.
>play an entire game about how freedom in a worse life is better than being under someone else's control in a better life
>"no actually maruki was right i want to be mind controlled"
I DO have the intellectual highground. You completely failed to understand the message of an INCREDIBLY BASIC story.
Let me spell it out for you: If you're being mind controlled by Maruki to prevent his perfect world from falling apart, then that's not even you enjoying the "perfect world". It's a puppet.
The only reason they could break out of it was because Joker was able to, and he could only do that because of Lavenza. It's why the moment Joker accepts Maruki's reality that everyone, including Akechi, go back to living in Maruki's world without resistance. Also his world was going to literally become reality after the deadline, which is why the deadline existed in the first place.
I COULD'VE HAD MY OWN LAVENZA
FRICK YOU JOKERRRRRR
maruki is like a law route from smt without the benefits
Thus you realize why marukigays are morons
>stop believing in a person
>they stop existing
waow i love subjective reality
A starving African's perception and mind might change when I tell him the wonders of the modern world, assuming I can make a good case for it... but his experience of reality itself will not include those things until someone ACTS- either him, to get to somewhere these wonders are part of life, or me, to bring them to him.
That is the fundamental difference between reality and Maruki's world. If by telling someone about a fact, you cause their life to immediately and RETROACTIVELY change to reflect that fact, that is NOT reflective of reality. Yes, perception can change your life, but the degree to which it does in Maruki's world is too far to be healthy.
The Caligula Effect did this better because Mobius was fake and had real world consequences. Maruki’s perfect world was almost made real. The message is kinda the same, but the logic of the plot doesn’t match up. Maruki’s world does have issues, like how Sumire losing her identity instead of just being made happy is inhumane and idiotic on Maruki’s part, but for the most part it’s just better. People are literally resurrected and unraped.
>Maruki’s perfect world was almost made real
No it wasn't, it was almost made permanent. His perfect world was a delusion built on unifying the cognitive and real worlds, and would not have held up for any significant length of time, for the same reason you can't simply dream forever. Eventually shit falls apart and loses cohesion if you don't have reality to ground you.