>melee combat
Why developers stubbornly continue to ignore this aspect? Is this just dnd duckling syndrome or do they really have a hate boner against everyone who goes to the gym? How else to explain that magic has an autistic in depth description and mechanics while the melee combat boils down to "You hit things olololo" without any complex mechanics and decision-making process.
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Play a different system, culture warrior.
I played by Shadowrun and Dark Heresy. Melee kombat is still crap.
It's not about the damage numbers, you dumb autist, it's about the depth of mechanics.
>I played games that heavily focus on guns and magic, why melee boring??
lmao moron
>I played by Shadowrun and Dark Heresy. Melee kombat is still crap.
In DH, unless you are using the Ascension book, melee has the highest damage potential.
2d10+40 pen10+ per hit is absurd.
In SR, melee is the most dangerous place to be unless you are a high powered mage.
Every moron who only cares about damage numbers deserves a gas chamber.
If the argument is that magic is more versatile than a dedicated combat action, I have no issue agreeing.
Saying that magic deals more damage than melee in either of those games depends on a number of scenarios, including what books you have to you.
>magic has an autistic in depth description and mechanics while the melee combat boils down to "You hit things olololo" without any complex mechanics and decision-making process
You finally understood what the thread about.
Your post assumes that having weird, autistic subsystems is a good thing. I'm playing a fighter or a barb because I don't want to have to frick around, I just want to beat the frick out of shit in in combat. If you're desperate for a bunch of book keeping, play a magic user.
people like you are why 5e exists
why even bother with the mechanics of the game at all at that point? why not just flip a coin and say whatever you’re hitting dies on heads?
>Noooooo stop having fun the wrong way! If you aren't keeping track of stamina, changing your stance, taking weapon speed and what kind of doublet your opponent is wearing into account, you're having fun wrong!
Meanwhile, I'm having a great fricking time recklessly attacking every single turn, and raging just so I can tank 20 storey falls out of wizard towers. Sorry bud, sucks to suck, I guess.
>magic has an autistic in depth description and mechanics while the melee combat boils down to "You hit things olololo" without any complex mechanics and decision-making process
And this is a good thing, and intentional. Melee combat doesn't need the checks and balances of magic. Also, magic is as deep as a puddle at the end of the day. It's just another variation of "I hit thing lololol" except sometimes it's "the target has to try and hit me (but not really) lololo" with saves.
Complex mechanics (aka bloat that adds nothing of real value) would ruin Melee martials and make them unfun to play (just like spellcasters).
Also, you have a decision-making process. Martials are damage dealers, their goal is to hit hard and kill shit so those things don't hurt the other players. You have to learn to prioritize your targets and know who to go for first, if you don't do that then you're in for some shit. Melee martial gameplay is deeper than you think, you just can't think.
>And this is a good thing
Making 50% of your system boring and 50% of the system even more boring is not a good thing.
>ruin Melee martials and make them unfun to play (just like spellcasters).
People who play the game for any great length of time trend towards being casters. 5e understood this so well that it tried its best to give caster mechanics to every class, though the game is ultimately too shallow for it to matter.
>Martials are damage dealers
Every class is a damage dealer, because that's how you win fights outside of save or lose spells.
Really, the goal of DnD combat is to maximize your DPR and minimize the opponent's, and there are no ways to do this that aren't lopsided and straightforward.
Anyways, you are a moron and do not play games, nor will you ever, so don't bother replying.
Completely moronic post.
Why are you so moronic? OP wasn't talking about damage and repeated himself twice on that matter, but you couldn't grasp that. Do you even play games?
>2d10+40 pen10+ per hit is absurd.
You think being able to do comparable damage to a lascannon is absurd, when you're using the most expensive weapons, armour and implants on a high level character? You gotta get to the enemy first, and by the time you do, the guy with the assault cannon has probably already killed everything.
>It's not about a useful metric, it's about having a bunch of fiddly autistic subsystems I can cheese and minmax.
don’t be intentionally obtuse you fricking dipshit
surely even you can understand that melee having fun mechanics doesn’t have anything to do with how much damage it does
Melee *does* have fun mechanics. They just aren't autistic fiddly subsystems, which is what you're crying about.
do you really have fun just saying “i hit it” every single turn?
I certainly don't. The only time I really had fun with Martials in 5e was with a Battlemaster. That really should be the standard of what a Martial is measured by in 5e. Lots of options to choose from and resources to spend.
I'm not am npc with a fricked to death imagination, so I don't just say "I roll to hit" every turn.
Describing what you're doing in combat is also part of roleplaying, scrub.
>Buh-buh-but that's not part of the ruuuuuules!
Who cares, cry about it.
>you don't need rules, just roll to cast and then describe a spell
Every time when I do it dndrons like you starts crying.
rules not being rules but suggestions has been the official statement in every fricking edition of dnd, from gygax’ “you don’t need any rules” to 5e “the rules are just guidelines”, you larping cuck
False equivalence. In order to attack with a sword, my character has to have a sword. There is a difference between narrating, and making shit up, anon.
No, it's the same logic - to simplify everything to just a one roll and then imagine a description of the action. What's the matter, why magegays like you okay with casters having a list of spells and schools, but fighters have to be content with a simple "I hit"? It reeks of idiocy and double standards.
I'm not a "mage gay", you simpleton, I'm a person who doesn't want martial classes ruined with a bunch of bespoke system nonsense. It doesn't improve them to make them more "mechanically deep." They are fun to play because they are simple, and if you're just sitting there rolling your d20, empty headed, saying "i roll to hit," every turn, that's you're fault.
If you want to play a more "mechanically deep" class, play a fricking spell caster.
No normal person can enjoy the privitism of the dnd melee combat. You are either a castergay or a moron, you call. And by the way, you don't need a hundred autistic rules for a deep system, because the depth is determined not by the number of rules, but by the number of options and combinations these rules give you. Just compare the rules of chess and tabletop wargames, chess should be child's play if you judge only by the number of rules, but in reality the opposite is true.
>privitism
ok, thank you for your input, high-iq-man
I accept your confession. If you have trouble playing a game for 10 year olds then it says everything about your level of intelligence.
you’re the only person here having trouble playing, pajeet lmao
After all, I'm not surprised that you have dyslexia, after all, you are a "person" for whom playing dnd is the highest achievement in life.
>you have dyslexia
>privitism
>confession
stay mad brainlet lolololo
Why are you mad, did someone hurt your feelings?
That's an interesting take. But there's probably a solution that would satisfy you and people who want more mechanics, like for example having basic +damage feats as options, OR abilities for people who want depth
>It doesn't improve them to make them more "mechanically deep."
Yes it does, you're just moronic.
>It's not about the damage numbers, you dumb autist, it's about the depth of mechanics.
>OP wasn't talking about damage and repeated himself twice on that matter, but you couldn't grasp that
And the point is you don't need that depth. That's the realm of spellcasters, because they need checks and balances on their power.
Melee martials do not need this, as having to put yourself at risk by getting into melee is check enough for the raw power you receive. What you want is bloat.
>Do you even play games?
More than you, apparently. You don't even understand the fundamental concept of game balance, yet you're making demands that make no fricking sense. Melee Martials work excellently as they are, across the board. Giving them a bunch of moronic definitely-not-spells just because you're too autistic to understand your role in the party.
That's literally just swapping weapons. You're asking for a martial to have a wide variety of weapons which they already do. Nothing any of the characters do is that fancy beyond spamming the same like 5 combos and swapping to other weapons to to do their same 5 combos to keep your moronic score meter up. Make a Tiefling Fighter with the Gunner feat in 5e (or play with a GM who isn't a cuck and makes firearms core and count as martial weapons) and you're already there. You have your DMC gameplay.
>BUT MUH COMBOS
Impossible to implement in tabletop form due to the turn-based gameplay. It would never feel the same as DMC because of the RNG elements a TTRPG provides. You can't reliably chain hits because you're at the mercy of the dice, and if you remove that element of randomness then you create an imbalanced game state and if you want to be able to tell the dice to go frick themselves then go do freeform because TTRPGs have rules.
DMC gameplay boils down entirely to building score via combos, neither of those things mesh with TTRPGs.
>And the point is you don't need that depth.
>That's literally just swapping weapons
I won't even ask if you're actually autistic. This is so obvious.
>I won't even ask if you're actually autistic.
So you don't have an argument and acknowledge I'm right and that your dogshit thread is just bait from someone who doesn't play games. Got it.
I just don't want to waste my time on you because explaining obvious things to a fool is too tiring. I will only say that normal people quickly get tired of monotony and no high numbers can change that. Moreover, easy victories without tactics are only for dumb losers who are looking for self-affirmation in games, not fun.
>I just don't want to waste my time on you because explaining obvious things to a fool is too tiring.
Your argument is "Melee martials should have an autistically long (not deep, because casters aren't deep) list of options just like le casters!", which just shows you're a nogames moron who at best has read the rules for 5e D&D and nothing else and at worst is just parroting bullshit you read on /tg. The only moron here is (you).
>I will only say that normal people quickly get tired of monotony
No, no they don't. In fact, most of Ganker is upset when things change and will default to "old good, new bad" as an argument because they hate change. Let me put it this way, if the phrase "skibidi ohio phanum tax" offends or upsets you, you are lying about being tired of monotony and hate change.
>Moreover, easy victories without tactics are only for dumb losers who are looking for self-affirmation in games
Ad hominem, not an argument. Furthermore, you don't need 3000 pages of autism to have tactics in battle. In fact, the fewer hard rules there are the more tactics you can employ because there are no hard limits on what you can do.
>not fun.
Just because you're a moronic stick in the mud doesn't make it not fun. You know what isn't fun, having to sit there for 20 minutes flipping through a book just to end up hitting it anyway because killing your enemy is always the optimal play because they can't act against you if they're dead. Who gives a shit if you can do 30 different blade flourishes if 0 of them actually kill your enemy?
No, I'm smart enough to not need 3000 pages of convoluted bullshit to come up with out of the box tactics in a fight. I don't need the rules to tell me I can take a 2-cost action to step and then shove my enemy to move over to my enemy and shove them to the ground before stabbing them in the chest 3 times. Or, better yet, I just stab them 4 times because that is the intelligent, objectively optimal play
>Repetitive behaviors
>Resistance to change
>Restricted interests
>The latter study further reported that 25% of children with ASD were in the borderline range (IQ 71–85), and 44% had IQ scores in the average to above average range (IQ ≥ 85).
No, you are not normal and you never will be. Parents are lying when they say that you are special, you are not special, you are defective.
>That's literally just swapping weapons.
You're a moron.
>Impossible to implement in tabletop form due to the turn-based gameplay.
Double moron.
There are plenty of ways to have weapon/moveset-swapping with technical depths (weapon types with unique qualities,magic weapons with their own powers, features/powers/maneuvers that're modified by the weapon used, swappable ability sets) as well as ways to have "combos" while preserving the RNG nature of tabletop (triggered abilities, expendable resources activated as a reaction, dice manipulation, teamwork-based combos). This is basic fricking shit that was common before 5e and is common in a shitload of other games.
>And the point is you don't need that depth
Nah.
>More than you, apparently.
Haha, definitely not. You're a nogames who has no idea how they work.
>I played by Shadowrun and Dark Heresy. Melee kombat is still crap.
lol, is that all? Try a real system meant for melee combat, homosexual
Try Riddle of Steel, Legends of the Wulin, or one of their clones
Alright, I'll bite. Wulin has almost nothing summarizing how it plays anywhere online, so whats it trying to do and how does it achieve it?
>2020+ stuff
>Still can't stop playing D&D despite knowing how shit it is
You are addicted. You are a DnDrone.
Many have tried but the players that whine about melee combat are never satisfied. Most probably because they have no idea what they are asking for.
Plus martials are for chads more interested in engaging with the core system and role-playing and magic-users are for autistic incels that prefer to over analyze the haphazardly stapled on magic system rather than engage in the social experience that the game relies upon. Thus there is something for everyone.
>Most probably because they have no idea what they are asking for.
I would like to have Devil May Cry: The tabletop game.
I would as well
>Why developers stubbornly continue to ignore this aspect?
The frick are you on about?
>Is this just dnd duckling syndrome or do they really have a hate boner against everyone who goes to the gym?
Again the frick are you on about? even in D&D melee martials do the most damage because they have access to the best weapons. Ranged Martials can't get above a d10, melee martials can hit for 1d12/2d6 and don't have to worry about ammunition.
>How else to explain that magic has an autistic in depth description and mechanics while the melee combat boils down to "You hit things olololo" without any complex mechanics and decision-making process.
Because magic requires that complexity in its restrictions, whereas being able to swing a sword does not and should not. Melee SHOULD be the option with the least restrictions, and it is. Ranged weapons require ammunition and being in their effective ranges, magic requires expending spell slots/points/whatever resource the system has as well as most of the spells being save-based which means that you get absolutely cucked by anything with decent saves or good luck (i.e. if the party has a Paladin in 5e good luck ever having an NPC hit anyone with any save-based spells because the party will all have a +3/4/5 to their Saves, doubly so if there's monks/rogues in the party who can completely no-sell damage on a success). Melee Weapons deal consistent damage, the most possible damage of the martials and unreliant on saves like the casters, and best of all they're incredibly simple and straightforward so anyone can play one without having to sit down and memorize 30 pages of rules just to play their character. I would rather play an unga bunga hit it until it dies melee beatstick over a caster with 300 spells each with their own rules and limits any day of the week, especially in D&D where magic weapons ignore resistance and immunity to BPS.
Play Honor+Intrigue.
I like how the answer was given a day ago and you guys are having a b***hfest still.
>you guys
it’s the nogames op, he’s not actually looking for a game
Unironically try DnD 4th ed.
literally this
>let's make melee like magic, you know, like a Jap RPG!!
>AND WE'LL MAKE A VIRTUAL TABLE TOP AND DOMINATE THE MARKET
>[applause]
>everyone thinks 4e is "inspired" by WoW
>becomes a /tg/ shitpost system while 5e leaves out a battlemaster/tactician role
4E had cringe "electronic TTRPG" deliveries (no VTT, using Silverlight for tools) with fun design that was villainized.
4e had the problem with too many bonuses and rules that had to be tracked all the time. It's not like this problem is new to dnd, but 4e is just went beyond and above. Autism and an anime combat system are clearly not a good pair, if you want an anime combat system, then World of Darkness or Masterminds & Minions are better suited.
just play 4e dumbass
>b-but it’s like a video game
yeah, insofar that it has actual well made mechanics
4e literally has less to keep track of than 3.5 or pathfinder, I never needed to draw up a bonus/penalty matrix for 4e
>World of Darkness
Everyone hates Storyteller but I always loved nWoD because the system was so nice and fun to use. Need to do a thing? Skill + attribute and roll that amount of dice against a target, count successes. You don't have class mechanics and other bullshit, shooting a gun is exactly like hacking into a computer except shooting someone with a gun might be far less useful depending on what kind of creature he is.
It works for what the system sets out to do. Which is really all you can ask of any system.
>Pizza fricking sucks, it tastes of bread, cheese, and tomato, but I hate cheese! Cheese is disgusting! Frick that shit. I love bread and tomato but I can't enjoy it because of all the cheese!
>Have you tried bruschetta or maybe even bolognese or chili?
>I had calzones once and it sucked as well so frick you!
But what can we expect from someone who wants an autistic level of depth from martial combat but calls everyone an autist for giving him suggestions. Your real hobby is complaining. Runequest.
Is there a RPG combat system where defending isn't just a passive value that the attacker has to roll against, and the defender can at least choose between different options?
Honor + Intrigue
GURPS
Warhammer FRP 4e.
If defender is lucky he can crkatait.dwsk the attacker.
Several, but none of them /tg/ would like because they're either RWBY or they're one of my own homebrew systems I made for my specific autistic interests where defense is a choice between 4-6 options (depending on the system) that all have different calculations and are usually split between different kinds of incoming attack (usually I go with 2 generic, dodge/block, 2 melee, parry/endure, and 2 ranged deflect/shield so that no matter what you specialize in you're going to be good at at least one of them). Each of them also has a unique secondary effect on success; for example, Dodge lets you move 1 Unit for free on a success, while shield usually restores a depletable resource that ranged/caster characters use in a limited amount. Again depends on the system but it's a good framework i've found and you could quite easily port such a system to any other core roll + modifiers system.
For example if you wanted something similar in say 5e, you could make AC become a roll of 1d20 + DEX + [Armor Modifier before DEX - 10] and replace DEX with a different stat depending on what kind of defense you want to be used (i.e., Block would be CON or STR, Dodge would be DEX, etc.). More systems IMO should do this, because once I started playing shit that had active defense checks I never looked back.
the /tg/ made Hollow Knight game had attack, defense, and soak rolls for every attack with variable defense options
it slows combat to a fricking crawl because characters can easily make several attacks a turn
Dnd is crap and anything built on dnd foundation is shit. Color me surprised. Meanwhile, Dark Heresy has a doge system that doesn't slow down the game. Have you tried not playing dnd?
Black person, what the frick does that have to do with my post? Who mentioned D&D?
Counting out three (sometimes more) dicepools per attack is slow. Doing so two to five times per character adds up.
HKRPG isn't built on DnD, moron.
HKRPG is literally indistinguishable from 5e you sped
>d6 dicepools
>"woa... It's duh same as 5e..."
Shut the frick up Psyche
Palladium
Don't call it a grave.
It's the future you chose.
>So I grab the hobgoblin's sword arm with my left arm, and I try to lock us, then to pivot so I am facing East and he-
>Sorry, that's a 5th level ability "Pivot Grapple" you'll have to do something else.
Thank you for admitting you're not here to play a game. Did you know that (You) can jerk off to your Jason Bourne fanfic fantasies by yourself and you don't need to get dressed and derail the tables of strangers?
Move 3ft, opposed grapple check, verbal flourish.
The lady doth protest too much, me thinks.
Anon, you can still do that regardless. The specific benefit of that ability is you can do so while also dealing damage and potentially as an opportunity attack. Ain't complicated.
I don't know... The rules on Pivot Grapple are pretty clear it's exclusionary with movement and grappling on the same combat turn.
Nah man, you gotta check the Rules Compendium — if you just wanna pivot, then you can spin around all you want as long as you stay in grapple range. Now dragging grappled target — that's gonna take another Standard Action and a Str check.
Rules Compendium Vol 1 or Vol 2? I only got the paperback edition of Abridged so I only got 20% of Vol 2 in there.
Because game devs don't understand melee combat. It just seems like two people hitting eachother with swords.
>Melee
Roll to hit
>Magic
Roll to hit
>or
Enemy rolls to not get hit
Because every time developers go hard in the paint on making in depth melee mechanics, players either just seek out the handful of best options and use those repeatedly, there's so many options and crunch that it bogs the frick out of combat, or it's not nearly autistic enough for them and they b***h and moan. The latter get especially obnoxious because they will b***h at anything less than Phoenix Command but with swords.
>insists on playing moron specialized in beating people with sticks
>perennially upset that character's only skill is beating people with sticks
Beating people with a stick actually requires a lot more mental capacity than magic. And this is just realism, imagine how everything can be complicated when fighters have superpowers.
https://www.youtube.com/shorts/5ZtMKMM3xOc
https://www.youtube.com/shorts/1mulUgzvQeA
https://www.youtube.com/shorts/TwPN1LH81k8
>Beating people with a stick actually requires a lot more mental capacity than magic
There is literally no way to know that because magic doesn't exist, you goon.
It's exist. In fantasy settings. And many ttrpgs have a magic system that player must learn. So you are once again show that your mam do not want to talk about you.
Try Forbidden Lands.
>Choosing between a Stab or a Slash matters, because Dodging a Slash is easier, and trying to Parry a Stab is harder, unless you Parry it with a Shield.
>You can Dodge to the ground, or opt to stay on your feet, making the Dodge attempt harder, but a nimble fighter ofsets that without a problem.
>Some weapon properties let you Shove (trip) more easily, and because doing so is a Fast Action, you still have a Slow Action to attack with. The foe you just knocked over is easier to hit.
>Strength is a terrifying attribute. Shoving stronger opponents requires two successes instead of one (dice pool), a Grappled victim can ONLY attempt to break free and cannot do anything else, while the Grappler can beat them up until their victim breaks free or the Grappler feels like letting them go.
>Strength is also your 'HP', and because it's dicepools, taking damage (to your Strength) actually makes you weaker in the fight.
>Combat can be very lethal.
>Heavy Weapons can be Swung, which is a wind up Fast Action that makes your next attack with the weapon deal extra damage.
>Talents are similar to 3.x feats, but far more frequently aquired. They allow for a very customized character growth.
>Weapon Talents are specific to each weapon type, and further diversify combat, with Swords able to Slash two foes at once, Dagger users able to Stab as a Fast Action, and Axe Fighters able to outright cause a Slash Wound Critical Injury even if you deal only a single point of damage. This can instantly kill.
>Magic exists, and always just works, but can go very wrong in the proccess.
I don't like 4e, but honestly it is also a good shout.
my game is going to have next level tactical and fun melee combat based around maneuvers vs maneuvers with simultaneous resolution
just wait ~2 more years and Ill publish it
>do they really have a hate boner against everyone who goes to the gym?
What
If you want a system that places a higher emphasis on complexity in melee combat, try The Riddle of Steel, or its successors Song of Swords and Blade of the Iron Throne. I've only played The Riddle of Steel so I'll explain that.
The basic jist of TRoS melee combat is that you have a number of d10s, called your Combat Pool (CP), and you spend those dice to perform Attacks (Cut, Thrust, Draw-Cut, Evasive Attack), and Defences (Duck & Weave, Parry, Master-Strike). You and your opponent then roll your d10s to against a Target Number (TN) to determine how many successes you each get. The one with more successes wins the contest. For example, they successfully parry your ability. Unless you're a highly skilled character, you'll only have 6-10 CP, so you need to carefully ration out your dice since a single hit can kill your character (either instantly, or slowly from the bloodloss). It also makes fighting multiple opponents super difficult since you have to split your CP between them. So if you're all equally skilled, you're effectively fighting a 20CP opponent, while you only have 10CP.
The game has its problems, like all do, such as Toughness being too effective at reducing weapon damage. An 8 Toughness character, has the same level of damage negation as a 4 Toughness character wearing full mail. 4 Toughness is the human average for reference.
Anyway, the game has a very strong emphasis on not caring about balance (a dagger is an objectively worse weapon in a duel compared to a sabre, and sorcery can instantly kill you) and is a big inspiration for my homebrew system which I'm making.
The best part of the game is the spiritual attributes which make your character act like the hero of the story when they come into play.
No real interest in whatever you two gays are grappling with before making out but if you want to try an rpg with deep combat might want to check out Dogs in the Vineyard.
>story game
Yes but, if two characters with traits in combat are fighting it can get really interestingly descriptive, bring in player knowledge and incorporate basically anything you need mechanically with a great escalation mechanic for when guns get involved.
Everyone has to be into descriptive combat but it works really well when that's going on.
When you strip away the mormon fascism and the weird jargon it's a mildly amusing way to bet dice pools against opponents but it's not some super deep mechanic.
If you don't understand how it meshes depth inherently with description then you're just not going to get it. Your loss.
The "game" part of most tabletop games just sucks.
Even magic is usually boring. You can have games with hundreds of spells, but they have the same level of interaction as melee does. A spell that does damage, and spells that do so less efficiently. A spell that buffs you, and spells that do so less effectively. A spell that debuffs an enemy, and spells that do so less effectively. There's nothing really interesting beyond players "abusing" brain dead utility magic.
I mean, think about that. If someone has the ability to design mechanics around literal, with zero need to have reality dictate what they can or can't do, and they still can't make an interesting system? Of course they're not going to be able to take something as complex as melee combat and make it interesting.
>How else to explain that magic has an autistic in depth description and mechanics while the melee combat boils down to "You hit things olololo" without any complex mechanics and decision-making process.
Because homosexuals like you called the Book of Nine Swords "weeaboo bullshit" and 4th edition "Literally an MMORPG" so the entire industry stopped even attempting to cater to martial homosexuals and just let them go back to "I Attack, I attack again!" like pigs feeding from the same dirty trough.
Spellcaster players respond positively to spells with "autistic in depth description and mechanics" so they get rewarded with more spells and more autistic in depth mechanics and more subsystems that entirely revolve around spells and magics. Fightergays piss and shit themselves and make up straw man examples of how "DUDE WE LIKE THE SIMPLICITY!"
Don't cry, this is the future you chose
>Fightergays piss and shit themselves and make up straw man examples of how "DUDE WE LIKE THE SIMPLICITY!"
It's not a strawman. I want simplicity out of my martials. I played a fullcaster once, it was objectively the worst thing I've ever touched in a TTRPG because of all the restrictions they have on what they can cast, when they can cast it, how they can cast it, and then there's spells that are entirely GM fiat like anything with illusions or that let you command other creatures. Frick that, give me a +1 greatsword, give me multiple attacks per turn, and I'll be happy. I don't need a bloated mess to have fun with a game because I actually engage with the RP in RPG unlike you gays who ignore that part of the genre in favor of turning every game your vile hands touch into spreadsheet simulator 2024.
Melee martials are based because of their simplicity, they are literally always effective and in the moments they wouldn't be, fighters particularly can just swap to a ranged option, be it a thrown one like a javelin or speccing into the ranged combat stat a bit and having a ranged weapon on hand. They can also use their high physical stats and some creativity to twist the environment to their advantage, no fancy spells required. For example, you could smash a pillar so it falls onto a creature and knocks them out of the sky. I don't need Hold person for that, I don't have to give up focusing on a different spell to cast it, I break the pillar, the flying butthole drops and gets crushed under the debris, then while he's PRone I go and stab him in the throat.
So you're legally moronic, got it.
I don't know what developers you are talking about. Even the lowest common denominator RPG fixed this 18 years ago.
You are holding on to some weird shit, let go. Let fixed problems be fixed.
There you go, you're welcome op.
I blame the Black folk who chimped at Bo9s going on about the abilities being like spells and shit.
Granted, it would have been nice if D&D actually put some in-depth mechanics to basic things like how to actually wrestle/grapple and took advantage of building up on fighting unarmed.
How fricking hard is it to imagine being able to change damage types with unarmed strikes? If Monks were inspired by Kung Fu movies then you can't tell me these motherfrickers haven't watched a Shaw Brothers movie in the 70s and 80s especially 5 Deadly Venom and the rest of the Venom Mob movies
Because giving martials spell slots for weapon attacks is moronic.
>But it's representative of your stamina!
Then how am I able to do anything else in combat, just not the maneuver? If you let it be unlimited then you'd just complain about melee martials being OP bullshit.
>But what about non-D&D games?
It's already high-risk, high-reward in 99% of non-D20 games, muddying the waters with an equal level of complexity of magic or ranged combat would just either make melee even stronger than it already is, invalidating everything else, or slow down melee play to the point of it not being worth it.
Imagine trying to complain that a fully-armored GURPS melee warrior with maneuvers, weapon styles and martial arts is too weak, when they're the only ones really able to do damage until you get to gunmen. And even then, melee fighters charging gunmen and demolishing them before they can let off rounds is super common, (unless you're in a blank white room spaced 60 yards apart to begin with).
PF2e, Runequest, Savage Worlds, The One Ring, FFG Star Wars, Legend of the Five Rings, 13th Age, 7th Sea, Burning Wheel with Fight!.
It's hard to find a system without interesting combat if you're open to actually trying new things, as the first 5 listed above are mainstream RPGs. The only game I play with arguably worse melee rules than 5e is Call of Cthulhu, and combat in general really is not the point of that games. Even so, defending in CoC gives you the choice to dodge or fight back.
>PF2e
Same shit.
>Runequest
Same shit.
>Savage Worlds
Even worse than 5e.
>TOR
Nobody plays it.
>Star wars
Not relevant.
>L5R
Borderline, but most people don't want weebshit and its combat is still boring.
>13th Age
Worse than 5e.
>7th Sea
Same issues as L5R but for people who like pirates instead of hentai.
>Burning Wheel with Fight!
Never heard of it. The rest of your list is total trash, so explain why this one is worth anything.
Not that anom, but...
>PF2e
>Same shit.
>Runequest
>Same shit.
Mongoloid take, how pf2e and runequest being same shit? They're wildly different games from one another. I could give you a pass in considering pf2e being"same shit" compared to 5e but the runequest one makes you the equivalent of a bot reply.
>Savage Worlds
>Even worse than 5e.
I would say that does a fricking better job than 5e in running what most 5e groups strive for. It's fast, easy and does what it's written on the tin can. You can take it or leave it but definitely doesn't make martials fricking roll-to-hit bots, in sw you can test, you can do called shots, you can do all kind of movie stutnts of sorts and the system encourages you in doing so
>TOR
>Nobody plays it.
Run it moron. Of fricking course you're perpetually struck in the babby first game if nobody tries to branch out.
>Star wars
>Not relevant.
Thread topic is more interesting combat in ttrpgs, not more interesting combat in d&d fantasy land moron.
>L5R
>Borderline, but most people don't want weebshit and its combat is still boring.
>most people
Is YOUR group composed by dehumanised grey blobs that speak in third person? Jesus fricking christ, try and do something YOU enjoy for once.
>13th Age
>Worse than 5e.
Does exactly what the CR crowd type players want from d&d. In fact it may be the game that fits the bill the most. Not the best combat system per se but the game particularly encourages creative use of the presented rules.
>7th Sea
>Same issues as L5R but for people who like pirates instead of hentai.
See above
>Burning Wheel with Fight!
>Never heard of it.
Ok, you know what. Keep playing 5e ad libidum but stop spamming complaints about you cretin, obviously not even spoonfeeding you could help, barring strapping you on a chair and forcing you to play something different at gun point.
>Mongoloid take, how pf2e and runequest being same shit?
Same level of depth.
>I would say that does a fricking better job than 5e in running what most 5e groups strive for
5e groups disagree.
Savage Worlds is also the only system I've ever seen where getting "better" at something can make you statistically worse at it.
>Run it moron
Nah, not interested.
>Thread topic is more interesting combat in ttrpgs
More interesting MELEE combat, moron. Star wars is as much if not more about dudes with blasters, ships, and mind powers than dudes doing melee combat.
>Is YOUR group composed by dehumanised grey blobs that speak in third person?
What a nonsensical attempt at a rebuttal. I'm obviously not talking about my specific group, moron. More people exist in the world than the ones you personally know.
>Does exactly what the CR crowd type players want from d&d
The CR crowd disagrees.
13th Age in general is really just worse than 5e in nearly every single way, to the point where I could probably spend four or five posts ripping into its abysmal system and problems.
>See above
See above
>Ok, you know what.
I guess if you can't explain why this system is worth my attention, it's not worth my attention.
>5e groups disagree.
>The CR crowd disagrees.
Neither of those touch anything besides 5e so their opinions are irrelevant.
Don't care.
>Same level of depth.
What?! Fricking no. Runequest is a very simulationist game with granular mechanics, PF2e is a strictly gamist game with rigid moving parts, they literally have NOTHING in common, noth even a nebulous arbitrary definition of "depth"
>5e groups disagree.
Glad to know we have here the appointed representative of all 5e groups in existence to speak for them then. Listen buffoon, when i say that sw does what most 5e group try to run i'm referring to action packed heroics and when i say they "try" to run thay kind of games with 5e i'm referring to people tiptoeing around rules to make that (as in ignoring scarcity like ammo count, recurring to on the fly arbitrations for having more cinematic moments with "rule if cool", and so on). The fact that these kind of people don't switch en masse to other games as savage worlds is because they simply don't care nor have enough problems with it to b***h about.
>make you statistically worse at it.
Ahem: the fricking wild die, do you use it motherfricker?! Also you get more edges that combined with the increase in die type make successes more likely.
>Nah, not interested.
Great, frick off then.
>More interesting MELEE combat
Jedi duels! Vibroblades! Open a damn book moron!
>I'm obviously not talking about my specific group, moron.
Nothing more than your specific group should matter you cretin! You don't pick games to run because you're more likely to have games with that, you piack a game to run because you like it.
>The CR crowd disagrees.
Double rapresentative? Amazing. The rebuttal is along the lines of the savage worlds one, i'm not wasting anymore time with this nonsense.
>I guess if you can't explain why this system is worth my attention, it's not worth my attention.
And that's why 5e is called a containment game. Stay the frick there you passive husk of a man, maybe it's better for both if us.
>What?! Fricking no.
What?! Fricking yes.
>Glad to know we have [blah blah more coping]
If it's what 5e groups want, 5e groups would be using it instead. It's not exactly a tiny little obscurity nobody ever has heard of.
Regardless, it's still shit.
>Ahem: the fricking wild die
Is already included in the statistical fact that you can get worse at certain rolls by upgrading a stat.
>Great, frick off then.
Nah, cry more for me.
>Jedi duels!
Jedi? You mean the guys who use the force?
>Vibroblades
They're neat but nobody cares about them and systems are not built around the intricacies that you could have with them, or even lightsabers for that matter. So again, Star Wars is just irrelevant.
>Nothing more than your specific group should matter
Ok, glad to know you have no sense of object permanency ESL.
>Double rapresentative?
You have no rebuttal so I accept your concession.
>And that's why 5e is called a containment game
I don't play 5e lol.
The system you tried to shill simply sucks, and worse, it sucks so bad that you are unable to discuss it or any aspects of it because it is literally just that bland and boring.
>What?! Fricking yes.
[Doesn't make any counter point] great, this was a ridiculous waste of time.
>muh coping
Throwing words at random hoping for the to stick is pitiful.
>If it's what 5e groups want, 5e groups would be using it instead. It's not exactly a tiny little obscurity nobody ever has heard of.
Circular logic
>Is already included in the statistical fact that you can get worse at certain rolls by upgrading a stat.
But you don't take into consideration the edges like for example chi (to remain within the melee topic), advanced characters have more resources to couple with roll distribution. Mechanics don't exist disjointed in the fricking void.
>Jedi? You mean the guys who use the force?
With LIGHTSABERS yes.
>So again, Star Wars is just irrelevant.
They're not, there are melee rules even uf they don't come up as often (according to you).
>Ok, glad to know you have no sense of object permanency
It is irrelevant because has no application whatsoever, what does make to you that 5e is the most widespread ttrpg? You have admitted you don't play it.
>You have no rebuttal so I accept your concession.
Closing your eyes doesn't make the bad words disappear
>I don't play 5e lol
Great, what games do you play then, lets hear
>The system you tried to shill
I'm not evem the same anon, did you miss the "nta" part? My suggestion in this thread was simply this one:
>[Doesn't make any counter point]
Thank you for conceding again.
>Throwing words at random hoping for the to stick is pitiful.
He says, as he quotes nothing and attempts to deflect.
>Circular logic
Nolol.
>But you don't take into consideration the edges
Completely irrelevant. I tam talking about the fact that you can upgrade a stat and actually have statistically lower odds of succeeding on certain rolls. This isn't up for debate or arguing, it is a statistical fact.
>With LIGHTSABERS
Don't care, still magic.
>They're not
ESL moment. It is not a game centered around melee combat or its intricacies. It is therefore irrelevant.
>It is irrelevant because has no application whatsoever
You think object permanency has no application whatsoever. Jesus, you're dumb.
>Closing your eyes doesn't make the bad words disappear
He says, with no rebuttal.
>Great, what games do you play then, lets hear
Depends on what my home group is interested in and what I might have a flight of fancy for.
>I'm not evem the same anon
I like how you tried to deflect by repeating an obvious lie instead of actually stating what qualities the system has that make it worth engaging with.
Maybe you've never played it and just don't know? Or maybe you know its dogshit and can't think of anything good to say about it.
Ok, that was my third reply and i still got nothing of interest from you. Your replies are the least common denominator tier of lazy bot posting that you could even spare characters with by simply typing "no u" and convey the same meaning. Here goes the last (you) from me, go kys bumpgay.
Yawn. Come back when you've got something to say, moron.
>Is YOUR group composed by dehumanised grey blobs that speak in third person?
Off-topic, but I know someone who's like this and it drives me up the wall.
>"Hey, I'm grabbing a soda, you want one?"
>"Most people don't enjoy soda with fish."
>"Okay... But I do, do you want a soda?"
>"Sure, you got coke?"
>"Yeah, with or without sugar?"
>"Most people prefer with sugar."
I think at some point my friend became possessed with some kind of entity. Maybe a skinwalker got him. I love him but I am never closer to losing my shit and screaming at someone than when he is the mouthpiece for the silent majority.
Ano did you ever train fencing or some training/ grappling art? Cause if you did you would know- its too fluid. You could try to implement some stance system for swordfighting, but it would be stupid. most of the time you dont keep the stance(for instance the plow) once you start exchanging blows, you go with the flow. Its much easier to label it "melee attack" so that everyone gets it and not going into autistic detail which would require a lot of work for barely any gain. I can elaborate more if my point isn't clear.
Only if you do step-by-step turn based combat. If you the opposite rolls based combat system where many actions are combined into one roll, it is more than possible.
Combo points are the solution. Combo points and some short rest dependent powers to use before you build them up.
If I'm remembering correctly, Cthulhutech had something of a weird combo system that allowed you to chain a series of actions and what not. Then again, they made a point to have special fighting styles around swords, pistols, and rifles but that went hand in hand with the overt anime influences.
In retrospect I can respect how brazen the creators were by just saying "frick it, Deep ones in power armor and angel mechs GO!"
Aren't there games like Riddle of Steel and Blade of the Iron Throne out there that are turbo autistic about melee and that's their entire gimmick?
Dnd rip off with +1 to hit. Boring.
Boring autism snoozfests, there's a reason the lead dev of song of swords ran away with the kickstarter money
combat
>Why developers stubbornly continue to ignore this aspect?
But they don't. I struggle to think of a game where melee combat is not an option.
>I need fighter to be a dumb class because I have adhd
Where's Rogue?
Because the game becomes incredibly mind-numbingly slow when you do that.