>no gaming experience has any validity or deserves any money if it can be completed in under 2 hours
Why do people accept Valve's horrifically unfair refund policy?
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 It's All Fucked Shirt $22.14 |
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>no gaming experience has any validity or deserves any money if it can be completed in under 2 hours
seems pretty fair to me
>hey, we're Big Music Distributor (the only way anybody anywhere purchases and listens to music)
>if your song is under 2.5 minutes long (we arbitrarily decided this), anyone has the right to listen to it for free; they just need to submit a refund request after listening
>p.s., frick you
Except in the example it would be more like they can refund any song under 10 seconds.
jack stauber on suicide watch
Most songs worth listening to on its own are longer than 4 minutes, and definitely more than 2 minutes.
>10 bucks for a 2 hour long shart
would rather go eat out, would spend longer turning that into a turd
RIP Stormtroopers of Death
spotify for example has a free 30 seconds preview so that would be the limit, yea
Music has been free on YouTube for 2 decades lad, pirate radio before that
Steam just needs to make it so that their store won't host games which are capable of being completed in under 2 hours (ignoring glitch speedruns). If someone can experience all the content in your game before the window to refund it then it doesn't deserve to be on the store.
Pad the game out, time gate it, whatever. Then the people returning it will have an actual reason to return the game rather than being accused of stealing or manipulating the return policy.
Grindcore bros it's so fricking over
>Big Music Distributor (the only way anybody anywhere purchases and listens to music)
Youtube? Bandcamp?
If you abuse it steam will block you from the automated system and you can refund a game with over 2 hours played if you go through the manual form with a legitimate reason
seethe harder and make better games
Great example my dude.
Due to spotify counting a "view" after 30 seconds most artists started making albums with more short songs, essentially changing the medium in order to adapt to the new streaming reality.
If you adjust your "art" to appeal to market demands it isn't "art". The free market is never wrong. If your shit doesn't sell it's because it has no value.
>The free market is never wrong. If your shit doesn't sell it's because it has no value.
Based moron.
In the past they were limited by the storage medium so the whole industry was based around how much you can fit on a record/tape for decades
Bullshit. Even since 8 tracks artists have had 45 minutes of uninterrupted recording medium to work with. Some artists have utilized it like the grateful dead. The reason songs are 3-7 minutes long is because of precedence, not the arbitrary length of magnetic tape.
What about films being made in 24fps?
>What about films being made in 24fps?
24fps is partially the standard because audiences are used to it and 60fps "looks cheap" but also because increasing the number of frames bloats the cost of CGI because now studios have to render even more in between frames on their renderfarms
Also something people don't want to talk about but in a passive medium raw frame rate doesn't actually matter that much.
It's also not as important in vidya, over consistent framerates, but that's not a conversation people are really ready to have
inconsistent framerates are really only a console problem
>That new pokemon Netflix show that 95% CGI, except a few characters are stop motion
>It's Japanese stop motion! They're all working so hard on a hand crafted art! Please don't mention that the overwhelming majority of work is done by Rakesh in a windowless office.
>done by Rakesh in a windowless office
It's seems like the inverse though, most of the show is stop motion and CGI is just used for certain compositions.
the total length is the same dumbass, instead of making 9 songs long 5 minutes they make 18 songs 2.5 minutes each to double the revenue
if you can't make a video game that's as long as a movie
you need to get the frick out
If you want to compare then make the song 1 minute, if not less. If your "game" is 2 hours long it's shit and most likely barely a game
I rather be more fair to customers(2 hour no questions asked refund limit for everything) than be fair to the small handful of snobby c**ts making some pixel indie shit "art" game.
>than be fair to the small handful of snobby c**ts making some pixel indie shit "art" game.
Not wanting to be fricked over by "lel imma refund" Black folk, is being "snobby"?
If you enjoyed a game, you shouldn't refund it, no matter how long.
Otherwise you're a homosexual pushing developer to add bloat and padding to their game.
You're no different than tankies bending over backwards to rationalize shoplifting.
it's more like selling an album that has total of 5 minutes of music
it's bullshit, just call it a single and release it to promote something bigger, just like you should call a game under 2h a demo - because that's what it is
wait, music is not free?
>the only way anybody anywhere purchases and listens to music
You really don’t know jack shit about anything do you?
based post. this boomer thinks it's the 70s lol
Seems fair to me. If people don't like something (for whatever reason) they should be allowed a refund.
literally figuratively unironically not the same thing even remotely
HAHAHAHAHA MASSIVE COPE
This is such a moronic example when music distributors and labels absolutely frick over artists to the point where the artists only really make money doing live concerts or selling merch.
If a game is so short it can be completed in under two hours and so bare bones and uninteresting that players don't feel like replaying it, then yeah, its a bad game and people have a right to refund.
Streaming with places like Spotify gives no money anyways unless it's rap or pop. Pic related is one song I made that has most of the plays from Spotify. Also on Steam, 90% of people only refund due to technical problems or if the game can be beaten too quickly for the value they put in.
steamies absolutely BTFO
Red Book CD was already limited to 74 minutes, but good try.
Damn too bad no one liked your song enough to listen to it a second time huh? Or too bad they didn't consider your 20 dollar album worth the price when you only put a single 2.5 minute song on it? You realize that if someone really enjoys the game they're not going to refund it anyway right?
>Food analogy
Reduce the time to 60 seconds and we'll talk
fpbp
/thread
>twitter thread
have a nice day
If you're gonna make a game that short, you may as well sell it on itch, Steam users generally do not like paying for games that last for less than 2 hours anyway (assuming no replay value).
Seems like a fair policy to me. A possible solution would be to not offer refunds for purchases under a certain amount. Short, artsy indie games that are less than 2 hours are rarely more than, say, $9.99. Maybe anything under that and no refunds?
9.99? Bro if it's not longer than 2 hours I ain't paying more than three fiddy for it. On the flipside I'm far less likely to be bothered to ask for a refund of three fiddy.
that's generous. A < 30 min long "game" (and let's be real, that's what that gay is complaining about not being able to make and sell) is barely worth 99 cents considering there are mobile games for that much that'll give you multiple hours of gameplay
Look at his itch. He churns out projects at a ridiculous rate. He could just bundle a bunch of them together and circumvent the problem.
but portal
homie I'm not paying 10 bucks for a game that is 2 hours tops, that's fricking highway robbery. Setting an amount you can't refund is also mega fricking gay too, frick that.
>say, $9.99
>POV you have never had to work nor pay bills in your life
No one wants to play your "games"
I bought a game the other day that I REALLY ENJOY and have already dumped 12 hours into.
It was $5, undiscounted, at launch. Technically 8-ish bucks cause I bought it in a pack with the soundtrack because I actually liked the soundtrack.
$10 is still not competitive for a 2 hour game. Even that $5 game is competing with free, it just happened to come out on top.
The Australian law Valve was sued under made no provisions like that available so Valve had to roll with the current restrictions.
Just include a hidden variable that checks whether the game has been beaten or not that valve can see and if it's triggered don't offer a refund. Sure that wouldn't be foolproof, but it'd stop the casual consumer.
Valve added this to comply with consumer protection laws in other countries. It's on the users if they're going to be a big enough butthole to refund a short indie game after completing it.
>random twitter shit from a literally who
have a nice day.
everyone on Ganker is a literal who moron
I'm Gaben and you're a fricking idiot. Go get me insulin you little shit.
I don't take my Ganker posts and place them on twitter, and anyone who does is a fricking moron. I should not have to be subject to the same kind of moronation from someone else unless I voluntarily choose to visit twitter myself.
>post opinion from rando
LLITERL WHO LMAO WHO ASKED
>post opinion from famous person
ECELENB RCELEB SHILL GRIFTER
Can't win
>um i HAVE to post twitter screencaps
Why?
I don't understand why he's complaining about steam and not the states who forced this shit on them
if you're making a game that fricking short, it belongs on itch.io or some other shit, not on steam
yeah. It really makes you wonder why capcom even bother with Megaman 11
Fricking this! Xd!
Mmmm Fio
>More like: Metal Slug seX!
why the frick would you make a game that's less than 2 hours long
>arcadeslop
even then it's going to take you more than one run to beat it
If you cant keep me tenterained for more than 2 hours or cant make a short game that doesnt make me want to play it more than once then what the frick am I paying you for.
>An monopoly
You should try it
this homosexual is more than welcome to publish his shitty game on itch or Epic and sell 5 copies
Here's a list of feature films below 20 minutes followed by a list of novels below 20 pages:
yeah bro short stories don't exist
Did he say Novella?
Dont short stories usually come in either bundles or in magazines/newspapers?
I think than disqualifies that.
Portal was not only a game made for a bundle but it's also often 3 hours long on a first playthrough tgkk02
I but short (less than 1 hour, even) games on Itch all the time, the best horror games are usually like that.
Granted they're usually 1 or 2 dollars, but i certainly don't feel the need to refund them afterwards.
Even if they're free you can leave a buck with the pay what you want model.
>EU forces you at gunpoint to make a change to your platform
>this is somehow Steam's fault
I miss flash sales.
you sound like a woman
>your product should be fit for purpose
>okay
Gunpoint haha. Next you'll be telling me I cant sell toasters that electrocute the user.
>I miss flash sales.
you unironically miss the epitome of FOMO abuse? fix your brain
>epitome of FOMO abuse
found the zoomer afraid to order from menus
Thank you, Eurochads, for taking care of us consumers and protecting our anuses from the abuses of big corporations.
I wonder how many such cases there are already. Just others (mainly Americans) blissfully enjoying consumer protection laws from other countries.
>blissfully enjoying consumer protection laws from other countries.
thats the least they can do after we have saved the world so many times
>So many times
The only thing you did was basically killsteal WW2.
>Please ignore the vital ammunition and food.
Btw, French anons are best anons just because of how much gunpowder and lead shot they provided during the revolutionary war.
Saved from what? Pride parades and Black Lives Matter? Gee thanks.
even many europeans themselves are completely clueless about the benefits.
homosexuals that write shit like this on the internet are the same LGBT redditors that unironically believe that in the Communist utopia, they'd work as a video game designer
It's crazy how they don't realize that the only reason they have a choice about what they do and can be a lazy loser making vidya games is because of the lack of communism going on.
We saved the world from the communists. Stop trying to bring them back.
>We saved the world from the communists
crazy how that's not enough
>We saved the world from the communists.
But you didn't do shit.
>creator wants the system to be more fair to the little guys
>this makes them a communist
>creator refuses to create goods/services that compete and demands government bodies take action to protect their 'art' that can't compete in a free market
Yes, that makes them a Communist.
Demanding the government to interfere and enforce contracts also makes one a communist.
You know the OP is bullshit. It's like someone complaining that Walmart doesn't have the infrastructure to sell their postmodern avant-garde art CDs. These people demand a market for things there is no demand for.
>market for games beatable in under 2 hours doesn't exist
speedrunning exists
arcade gamers still exist, though they are a small niche
So they will get the 40 sales from the speed run and "I love not a real game" crowd that they deserve, but then complain
And those games do not sell regardless of Steam.
These poor morons lmao.
They could have jumped in the vampire Survivots hype.
Maybe their games just fricking suck. Failing with the console war safety net beneath you is just pathetic, you failed to captivate the "people" who astroturfed a fricking ad.
Speedrunners play for 900 hours to be able to beat the game in 20 minutes, and arcade games have replayability inherent that will push people to keep the games even if they beat them in 2 hours.
You're also forgetting that most people, like 99%, won't refund a game they liked regardless of playtime.
Good post. Imagine these kids watch speed running thinking its impressive because the player is "just that good" lmao. It's like you said, many many hours of practice. They dont just start a game and start speed running it right away
being the little guy doesn't automatically make you correct in every situation.
The system set up by governments, not private companies
>governments, not private companies
no difference nowadays (no difference to begin with but it used to be easier to pretend)
You know who the little guy is? The person buying the product on steam. The creators aren't the little guy.
People play those games for hundreds of hours.
have a nice day commie
homie just demonstrated that if class consciousness was a thing good willing consumers wouldn't refund a product just because they can in order to support small developers
>just because they can
or because the <2 hours spent was an unfun waste of time
It is gay, but why not make a demo?
Maybe like
Publish to itch.io for your art shit?
You're not entitled to push garbage on Steam.
Just like, don't publish to Steam?
I haven't used Steam in years now and regret ever doing so. Looking back I can't see why I ever accepted Steam as a necessity but refused to buy Denuvo games, etc. I've also never had a refund on it, because presumably I stopped using it before this was a possibility.
However it's the one thing they seem to have done right and the only way I've ever heard of a DRM being in favour of a consumer. Steam isn't a literal monopoly. Sell your shit on GoG, EGS, a disc. Whatever site is designed for visual novels or whatever you're trying to sell, because if its under 2 hours and has no reason to keep playing beyond finishing it once, then what you're selling shouldn't be marketed as a video game on a video game platform.
Are arcade games similar to Pac-Man and Dig Dug no longer videogames?
You haven't used steam since 2008ish ?
>get a game that has 30 min - 2 hours of content
>it's so hard that it takes 4 hours just to clear it
>go back and have a blast getting 1 CCs in single sittings
why would you refund a sub 2 hour game? aren't these the same gays who hate video essays above an arbitrary length of time because something something soul of wit?
>actually you should have less consumer rights because it may affect my 30 minute indie art experience
No
if your game costs more than $5 and it's not at least 2 hours long, just stop and put your game on itch.io
dumbass devs
>under two hours
>works of art
I think about actual works of art far longer than 2 hours
Leftists are so moronic haha
Nobody said games can't exit under the 2-hour limit and Steam isn't imposing that limit. However, by the same token, it also expected that if a game is under 2-hours in length, it need to be of a quality sufficient to justify its asking price. If this balance is not upheld, then the product shouldn't be under 2 hours. That's a pretty fair policy.
this. ultimately you just need to give players a reason to play for more than 2 hours, even if they can "beat" the game in under that time you can add different characters, modes, difficulties, or collectibles that make it easy and worthwhile to play past the credits. games longer than 2 hours also need to be upfront about why the player should continue playing the game, since the player can just refund if the tutorial is overly long or if it becomes evident that the game is shit.
>make unity asset flip backrooms skibidi toilet game that takes 30 minutes to beat
>release on steam for $9.99
>complain on twitter as soon as someone refunds it
simple as
Stats don't buy into this, people by and large refund games when they don't enjoy them and that's that. The one big example where people did this actually netted the developer a lot of money for a game that its players initially just didn't like because people were outraged. What sort of solution is better than Steam's, anyway? Handling it game by game? Letting the developers decide, god forbid? If you want security for a game with less than two hours of content, go to Itch or something. Get real
If your game was good I won't refund it even if I beat it in 2 hours. Most good games are worth a replay at some point.
If your game is under two hours AND is some shitty art game that only has any value for one playthrough, it's probably not worth a pirate let alone a purchase. Even shit like Stanley Parable I've played through more than once (as in doing all the endings more than once) because the writing is good even after the shock of the core conceit goes away, you have to at least do that if the gameplay isn't good enough
This is the most reasonable take. 2 hours doesn't really matter ultimately, if you're the kind of gay who would refund a game they beat in under 2 hours regardless of whether or not you enjoyed it, you could just pirate it anyway.
i looked up this guy and he makes creepypasta games. I would be here defending him if he were working hard to make well-designed action or arcade-style games that were on the shorter end. You know, a game having only a few levels but each level has more work put into it. But "playing" this guy's games would be indistinguishable from watching a 20-minute markiplier video
Devs who make good arcade games don't cry about Steam refunds.
homosexual leftists are STILL seething over steams refund policy?
Weird that leftists would cry over a leftist policy.
>the dev doesn't even consider the possibility for anyone to replay xis game
do people not replay games anymore
No, they do. But games that have single playthrough narratives have no replay value. So when devs charge 9 bucks for something, and someone goes through and plays the entire game, some certainly abuse the system and get a refund for it. It's a bit of a slippery slope, because I'm sure there are games out there under 2 hours that cost 9 bucks that are probably good. But by the same token, its also basically like piracy where you buy the game, beat it in under 2 hours, and get a refund.
So while the abuse exists, I think its still a fair enough policy for all the other games that make up majority of the ecosystem that are over 2 hours in length and you need to be able to make a determination in that window if that's what you want. All that said, 2 hours is a long time. Devs seething over the timelimit is a bit silly. They'd get less refunds if they put out a demo of their game that gives you like 15 minutes of gameplay if your entire game is 2 hours or whatever. Something to help the consumer make an informed decision in their purchase. If you're courting players to buy your game, then you need to make sure that they're going to be happy with their purchase and that there exists goodwill between both parties in the end. Trying to gaslight others on twitter while being entitled about the content you create and trying to deflect poor quality or replay value in favor of some artsy farsty idea doesn't help your image.
But as is the case in industry, many developers don't understand how to speak with people at scale and fall prey to common pitfalls of being moronic on the internet--while forgetting that anything you post on the internet is there forever. If lefties dig up shit from 10 years ago to mock and cancel others, the same is true here.
1. narrative-based games usually have no replay value
2. replaying games is indeed a thing of the past, because there are simply too many games to play
2.2. developers don't focus on replayability anymore, because no-one replays games
just add infinite levels
?
I have 30+ days to return any art I buy on most websites
but how do you return a piece of fart?
i've beaten games in under 2 hours, and I've kept them because I like them. It's not the game length that's the problem here.
If Steam offered refunds according to the law in Europe, they would have to offer refunds no questions asked for two weeks.
They are already pushing it in favor of game devs in this case.
So they either make a different Steam service that fully complies with EU law losing Valve AND the game devs a ton of money in creating a subsidiary and refunds since a large portion of customers will just refund the game after they're done with it (and now you as a dev will have to make a game that is at least two weeks long and pray that it does not have any technical issues as EU member citizens will be able to ask for a refund within two years) or just offer a "eh, good enough" refund option and hope that no one sues them, which is what they are doing now.
The EU law actually allows for just making the consumer waive their right to withdrawal on digital purchases. Which is what everyone was doing before Steam went above and beyond what was required, and most places have implemented similar policies to stay competitive. For example, EA Origin just requires the consumer to waive their withdrawal right and then *might* allow refunds when playtime is below 2 hours but can and does just decline refunds for any reason and the EU has no problems with this.
Why is a gaming experience only valid if someone pays you?
If your one hour game is worth shit I'll want to replay it someday, which places me above your two hour window.
Pac Man is a 30 second game and Namco sells like 12 versions of it on Steam. What's your excuse?
>Monopoly
Lmao
>Their policies control the medium
Gog gives you 30 days and doesn't take into account play time at all.
Just make a game that takes 2.01hrs to complete.
I seriously doubt even the majority of people habitually refund short games, as long as the price is reasonable
Maybe the ones complaining are putting price tags that are really reaching and more likely for people to bother getting it back afterwards
>no other medium faces such random restrictions set by ONE party with absolute market domination
this is bait, right? Movies have to be 45 minutes at least to be considered for an oscar. This is reasonable because the vast majority of movies are longer than this. The vast majority of video games take more than two hours to beat blind.
They were literally forced to by EU law, Sony and Nintendo (not sure about MS) will still only grant you a once-in-a-lifetime refund that they can still say no to. Also why do you care about some Twitter shit with a handful of hearts?
Most of us grew up on 2 hour games, or close to it, Donkey Kong Country 2 was closer to 3 I guess.
Nothing wrong with shorter games at all. Games are art, not washing machines.
no, i'm gonna run it multiple times. but not dkc2 bad game
The games you're talking about are two hours when you replay them for the 50th time. They take much longer on your first go.
So it isn't about "how long the games are" but "how long it takes you to complete them on your first go"?
I think people making this argument should be more precise if so. And wouldn't that vary wildly? Everybody is at a different skill level.
shut the frick up nerd
It's "how long it takes you to complete them on your first go" because Steam logs all your play time, not your play time in your latest session. No one's going to start up a game for the first time and play perfectly. Steam even counts the "idle" time where the game is running but the player doesn't feel like he's playing: configuration menus, loading, cutscenes, tutorials, etc.
Because valve should absolutely be dedicating a 5 million man team to keeping accurate logs of how long homosexuals spend rebinding keys in the options, right?
>B-b-b-but they actually JUST track how long you've loaded the fricking game for! Unacceptable!
There is a zero percent chance you beat DKC on your first play in under 2 hours no matter how good you are. And the issue isn’t even that it can beaten, it is that it is worth only two hours of your time. When you beat DKC the first time, did you never want to play it again? Because that is what you are saying when you refund a game.
Art isn't produced for money. No product will ever be art. No exceptions.
Bro some of the greatest most famous pieces of art in history only happened because the person who did it was paid for it
that's moronic and so are you
If videogames are art so is a Big Mac.
what does that have to do with anything
Games are products made to be consumed, not art.
>the mona lisa and the sistine chapel aren't art because money
ok gay
They're not. They're products made to a customers specifications. The Sistine chapel has exactly as much art in it as my garage door that I paid a Mexican to paint blue last year.
most people would call you a moron if you said that the mona lisa isn't art. this seems like an arbitrary definition you made up in your head
to me it sounds like they have bullshit in their heads
Nobody cares schizo. Your defining feature of art is that it isn’t paid to be made. Your definition isn’t shared anywhere because it misunderstands the central idea of your reasoning. Your definition if expressed in a cogent manner would be against the consumerism of the product, NOT the paying. Everything has a cost to be produced, some are expressed via money but money itself is not an expression of consumerism but that of value, for which any action has to be paid. Your moronic self painting your own wall has a value, either in the monetary cost of purchasing the tools and materials to complete the job or the time it would take to construct tools and materials from scratch. You are huge mega moron whose brain is so smooth you cannot possibly conceive of a work that has required money to be completed in human history that is not a strictly consumerist action. That is one of the stupidest hot takes I have ever heard
lol the walls are getting antsy
Meds
>He thinks art has an objective definition
Lol. Lmao even. How come chess isn't art if Mario is?
Neither are art, you are braindead
I still think my idea is best:
Developers should be allowed to set their own refund window, but Stream puts a big yellow warning if it's shorter than 2 hours.
If the game is clearly under 2 hours, and the player knows that before buying, then playing through the whole thing and asking for a refund is a cut and dry abuse of the system.
However, I know a lot of indie devs make insubstantial, 10-minute things that nobody would have bought if they knew it was that short.
If devs don't want players getting a refund, they have to tell them how long the game is.
If your 2 hour game was so shit that people want to refund it you should consider suicide.
If you're wishing strangers suicide because they made a bad video game, you should do some soul-searching and improve as a person.
have a nice day
Anon isn't wishing suicide on them. Reread the post.
>Virtue-signalling on Ganker
Genuinely end your own life, nobody on this anonymous image board gives a shit about you trying to high-road people. 99.99% of indie games aren't worth a dollar and I'll refund them if they're shit. I don't owe you my business for your shitty product.
is Stamper even alive
he released a new and somehow decent animation recently but got his channel shitcanned for posting basically uncensored porn
I wrote consider suicide. Maybe after some soul-searching of their own with a rope around their necks they'll work on creating a better product.
>sell a box of shit
>customer opens the box and demands a refund
>too late you opened the box no refunds
frick off
>NOOOO YOU CAN'T TELL SOMEONE TO KILL THEMSELVES!!!!
Ok
I hope you get horrible incurable cancer
Genuinely terrible idea. That would require so much oversight to avoid pretentious "devs" trying to abuse the system to scam players out of their money.
>muh refunds
My supermarket lets you refund anything for literally any reason.
Don't like it? Refund. Why should games be different?
tbh most games should have more content than that, but the crappy padding that shitty indie homosexuals like this guy does is exactly why it's there.
GOG lets you refund for a whole 30 days. you can literally beat a game and refund it lol.
>art can only exist if financially backed by corporations
Seriously, what a c**t.
the guy in the OP's most well-known game is a horror-themed warioware clone that's been unfinished for like 3 years, it ends really abruptly
it's not 2-hours short but you can see why he would be concerned about the time limit anyway selling something like that
>I bought this game
>Didn't know the dev was a homosexual till this thread
>Already over 2 hour limit
frick, I would have refunded it just to spite this butthole for complaining about steam. Would have done the same thing for Overgrowth and Lugaru if I could.
>bitches about steam's monopoly
>cites their refund policy, which was forced on them by the EU
indie devs, everybody.
>waaahhhh steam is a monopoly because every competitor is so much worse that no one wants to switch waaaaahhh
If his game is truly art he wouldn't and shouldn't have to use Steam and force people to pay for his game. Art should be free and his game should be free, any money he makes should be from the patronage and donations of people that like it.
I will not refund a game under 2 hours long if its priced reasonably. I refunded Slay the Princess because I got the "true" ending on my first "run" and it was $15 or whatever. I weighed if I would replay it again to see other variations aside from the few I saw to get the true ending and realised it wasnt worth paying for.
If the game was $5 instead, I'd likely not have refunded it.
2 hour or shorter games should be mini projects artists/devs do to test the waters and improve their skills before releasing a longer game, or be monetised in another way. Similar to Doki Doki Literature Club or be released free to showcase "art" (I guess its not art unless you get paid?)
>games (works of art)
I don't disagree that some games could theoretically be genuinely great and be under two hours but I can't think of any that don't also have insanely good replay value.
If your game was under 2 hours but actually good and reasonably priced, I won't refund it.
The only people complaining about this are the people who deserve to get their game refunded.
I know where to find free games that are better than paid stuff, and I'm not talking about piracy, I'm talking about games that have been released by their developers for free, and are fricking awesome. You are competing with literally free. Frick you for trying to remove consumer protection just because you're salty that people are refunding your shit, I've had to use the system before to refund literally unplayable games that had unfixable technical issues, thank frick the EU bullied valve into adding that system.
Why are leftist so against the free market?
They keep voting for more regulations and blame the companies when the regulations end up hurting the industry. It happens everywhere
Name a single game that was REALLY GOOD and was under 2 hours and was unfairly screwed over by the refund policy. Go on.
it's not possible because the only actual data for refunding is from the devs themselves who obviously can't be trusted about it
steam is not a monopoly. they do absolutely nothing to prevent competing sites and storefronts at all
>they do absolutely nothing to prevent competing sites and storefronts at all
Funny, because I can name a store that does do this through exclusivity deals, and it's run by someone who is the loudest about steam being a monopoly, too.
Yes they do, they give an accessible platform that's user-friendly and easy to access, which also semi functions as a social platform, you can't expect other stores to do that so steam is abusing it's monopoly ok having a decent storefront
Monopoly?
>trillion dollar corporation is my friend that cares about me
Why are zoomoids like this?
>monopoly
lol
>art medium
Games (especially ones that are sold at a price) are products that can contain artistic characteristics.
>their refund policy alone is forcing devs to make games that are 2+ hours.
If the game is worth the price there is no reason to refund. Make a better game.
only monopoly i give a shit about is kart race games and mario kart just kills the rest of the entire genre
>like this niche kart race game? sorry champ, but its not mario kart, so its a goner. Why aren't you playing mario kart instead? don't you wanna play star road#12? if you can hold first place, you get to hold onto a banana for 3 minutes.
A monopoly isn’t inherently unfair or unjust. A niche market requiring a specialized and expensive infrastructure often lends itself to a monopoly. That said there is competition in the space with the epic store, windows and to a much lesser extent mac app stores, gog, etc. if you don’t like steam, don’t use it?
Once again twitter people are stupid, you are stupid for signal boosting them, and I am stupid for commenting on this. We all lose
People like to own things they like. I literally just 100% a game in 101 minutes on Steam. Not gonna refund it. Refunding is also a bother to do. If you make something worth keeping you'll make money. Simple as.
>People like to own things they like.
This. I have many "just 60 minutes games" in my lib. Only the bad ones were refunded.
In theory I agree with this, but is there any evidence that this is actually a problem? I suspect the intersection of people who are interested in short, artsy indie titles and the people who are also trying to game the system to save like <$10 dollars isn't that big.
I mean who would be dumb enought to spend money on a 2 hour game? and lets be honest this guy would probably make his game cost 20 bucks.
>some Twitter homosexual who exclusive makes 10 minute pixel shit games has an opinion
Wooooaaaaaaah
If somebody made a really good sub-2hour game, do you really think most customers would refund it?
If it was under 5 bucks, like 3 dollars max, I wouldn't bother refunding. Only if it was really good (not possible).
Let me guess: this homie made an "art" pixelshit indie game that's shorter than 1 hour and is upset he's making 0 money off it?
10-15 minutes, to be exact.
Looking at his itch.io page, it seems like everything is either free or name your own price, so its kind of funny to complain about not being paid.
He knows Steam is the service where he'd have more eyes on his shit, but he also knows his games are shit, so he blames Steam.
or he just puts the things he thinks are worth selling on steam and the things that aren't worth a price of admission on itch
This guy made only one interesting game and that got somewhat hype because of the alphabetagamer yt channel.
The one with the empty server and the ghost of the girlfriend.
Because 2 hours was not supposed for you to decide whether you like the game or not. It is for you to check if your device can run it lol.
If Valve agrees to extend it to three hours, ppl will demand four hours. If they get four hours, ppl will ask five. There is no end to this shit you moron. And if goes too long, it is short indie games that will suffer that financial punishment.
How many people are actually refunding so they can get a game for free instead of just pirating it? I don't really think this is a widespread issue (maybe for multiplayer games)
it's something a few indie devs have tried to hype up as an issue but I can't make myself believe it really happens on the scale they suggest it does
>games (works of art)
kill all trans devs
mutilate LGBT devs
There are two ways to prevent refunds:
1. Phsycially ban them and not provide the functionality to do so.
2. Make a good game.
Steam's refund policy is actually pretty fricking stingy compared to gog and epic. I don't know what the solution is here.
The solution is to not listen to whiny indietards.
Because the alternative is an even more pro-consumer refund policy, this is just lip service towards EU customer protection.
If your game can be beaten in under 2 hours and you can't tolerate refunds, consider a different model of monetization or release a better game.
I love this windows7 autist meltdown, keep them coming
t. still using windows 95
>noooo my indie shit with 0 effort has made no money because I decided not to make a game worth even 10$
He had a point and then he went into the tired homosexualry of GAAEMS ARR ART!!! and shit himself to prove a point, and now nobody fricking cares
Noo Black person valve please my 25 sales are ruined because every gamer will refund my shit game.
Nobody ever refunded a good game
didnt devs piss and shit and cry when valve introduced the 2 hour refund policy at first?
videogames aren't art
they would be if game devs weren't lazy homosexuals with no passion
>literally who?
> an monopoly
> games are art
Room temperature IQ
>B-BUT VIDYA IS ART
Yeah video games are art.
But before they are art, they are fricking products that people pay for. Don't fricking cry when your """art""" is treated as a product first.
>Monopoly
This homie don't know what that word means.
In most cases, 2 hours is simply not long enough to determine if there's a serious problem worthy of refunding. The one size fits all policy is probably unfair but before this existed, refunds were hit or miss. They have to comply with international rules, especially the more stringent ones set by the EU. France wants you to be able to resell steam games, which would seriously hurt retail sales if you could do that. Steam also does not really even sell games, they lease them...digitally. This is a very short-sighted and ignorant argument on so many levels. A 2 hour game is a demo. Go make a movie or right a book if you want guaranteed sales for your lazy kusoge
>which would seriously hurt retail sales if you could do that.
we used to be able to do that and still reached this state
>They have to comply with international rules
Lol. Valve is a 100% privately owned US company. Would they lose a chunk of change if they lost the EU? Yes. Would it somehow prevent them from operating or making money hand over fist? No. The instant the EU passes some frickery that costs valve more money than it makes they will drop the entire market and not even give a shit.
>B-b-b-but what about the French gamer market?
There's a reason you're posting on the internet in English, homosexual. Type your mother tongue and be irrelevant, talking to a wall. Lol.
all that stuff you made up in your head is very strange. seek help.
Have sex.
>Game sucks or is beatable in two hours
>Refund
>Game is good, and has even more playtime than anticipated
>Don't Refund
Shit, that's crazy bro.
Who the frick is this guy?
>Some literal fricking who that made some shitty 10 minute game
Frick you, you homosexual Black person OP, frick everyone replying to this seriously, and frick the troony jannies for allowing the quality of this board to degrade this badly. I can't fricking believe that twitter screencap threads are STILL allowed. All of you are Black folk.
>Belgium
>is a complete moronic homosexual
yeah
Even indies can hack together a storefront without too much effort. There's no monopoly.
You don't understand do you? Let me make this simple for you to understand: A monopoly is when a single company has the majority stake in a market to the degree that it squashes other competition.
Steam does this exactly by making sure your "indi darlings" don't get found unless they're on steam.
Does that make it understandable for you baby boy?
It's not Steam's fault every other platform barely tries with indies, outside of the big hitters, lmao.
By law, they have to engage in anti-competitive behaviors. Just having the biggest slice of market share isn't enough to be a monopoly.
Monopolies are only bad if they’re shit
Steam is not shit
xi ping is not shit
Hitler was not shit
Google is shit
>Steam is not shit
Are you sure about that bud? It's THE premier shovelware site
>xi ping was not shit
The one thing I can agree with
>Hitler was not shit
Wish I could agree, but he couldn't even finish his cleanse before offing himself
>Google is shit
Duck duck go exists moron
>Duck duck go
Don't tell me you use that garbage...
>Be Australian
>Refund laws so lax that you can buy a game from EB (Gamestop) and return the game within 7 days for a full refund, no questions asked.
>I have beat multiple games this way and paid nothing for them.
Black person thats LITERALLY GameStop corporate policy. A fricking GameStop in Detroit has a seven day, no questions asked refund policy. God damn you're moronic.
Abusing shit like this is why laws/procedures end up changed to frick you over.
I know corpos suck but stop purposefully abusing shit.
Make your shitty 30 minutes long game, but it has to be free
These games were a problema and the free market fixed them
Should be at least 8 hours. And not the grind bullshit either. At least 8 hours of levels, quests, story, cutscenes, dialogue combined.
just make a 2-3 hours long game, and sell for 3 dollars or something.
yeah god forbid devs make a good video game so people don't feel like refunding it
>Game takes 2 hours to finish (presumably blind)
>Game is also something nobody would ever want to play again
>The problem is with the users
Now, I get maybe, if it's like a $2 game or something, but there's clearly another problem here and it's not Valve
IT'S THE
DEAD BODY LOOTING
MUTANT SHOOTIN'
VENUZ YOUTHIN'
how do you make a game less then 2 hours with no replay value?
You could always refund shitty artsy games even in game stores
It's just that people were usually too lazy unless the game was unplayably broken
I enjoy a game under 2 hours, i don't refund it.
If i want to play a game and not pay for it, i can just pirate it, 2 hours or not.
Non-issue.
its not art because people owning them (publishers) do not treat it as art.
Wasn't Valve forced to implement this system because of legal frickery?
They wanted to have refunds for a long time but all the major publishers threatened to pull if they allowed it.
Legal frickery gave Valve a convenient excuse to do it.
It's also why technically you're TOTALLY not supposed to sell your steam account (and your games) to other users but there's a massive market for people to buy accounts with delisted games or Team Fortress 2 Grizzled Veteran medals.
Every time this discussion starts I ask these morons which less than 2 hour game is being unfairly affected by this refund policy and none of them could name a single fricking one.
>games like these can't exist because of this rule
>okay well which games like these exist
moron
WHERE ARE THE GOOD LESS THAN TWO HOUR GAMES UNFAIRLY AFFECTED BY THIS
THEY DONT EXIST BECAUSE THIS POLICY MEANS NOBODY MAKES THEM
Then what's this?
Seems like less than two hour games that did pretty well. One is even a literal VN you just watch.
>both free games
yes devs should just perform labor for you for no payment
moron
And yet because the product was so good, people supported the devs and paid for the artbooks.
This is the level of market sense you need when you're selling a two hour "experience".
Less that they should, more that they can.
>never ask for product
>never pay for it
>pirate it
>never play it
>keep seeding it
>yes devs should just perform labor for you for no payment
yes
Correct
Game developers unironically do not deserve money
>yes devs should just perform labor for you for no payment
I pity you zoomers, I really do. Time for a history lesson
Devs made quick fun games because they wanted to and could. The fun games inspired the people who played them to make fun games of their own. And those fun games inapired others. And so on. Entire communities lived this way. No money passing around, just nerds making and playing games to have fun. Zoomers will never experience the era of Newgrounds. Ever.
It's a genuinely sad thought
If you can't stretch gameplay past two hours, you didn't perform labor.
Maybe you could find examples of such games released, you know, before the policy got introduced? Surely such games were a thing before that.
Steam didn’t always exist. Name a less-than-2-hour game that would have been affected
> tfw dev forgets to put DRM on his game
> just copy the install location after having finished installing, don’t even bother running the game
> refund
> have full working copy for free
Ya’ll Black folk ain’t even stealin correctly
If people don't want to keep your game, even if it's under 2 hours, to support you because they liked it that much, have you considered the possibility that your "game" might just be shit?
Nobody is saying anything. Typing isn't talking.
>he doesn't say everything he types out loud
gay
>steam (a monopoly)
stopped reading their
have a nice day OP
An anon made this game.
https://store.steampowered.com/app/2443110/South_Scrimshaw_Part_One/
It's a less than two hour National Geograpahic-esque VN mockumentary about alien whales. It gained a strong cult following. It's completely free.
Helltaker exists. Everyone knows what it is. It's less than two hours long. It's completely free.
These are those amazing little games, well one is a VN, that people are more than willing to pay for but the devs made them free. However, they introduced alternative avenues for people to support them and you know what happened? People sent them the cash they deserved.
If you make a fricking trash ass less tha two hour walking sim about muh feefees and even have the audacity to charge ten bucks for it then go frick yourself. Don't be surprised when people refund it.
not gonna play your flash animation tier """game"""
I find it funny that people think games and movies are anywhere close to art when they are still heavily reliant on finances, investors and profit.
The later parts of Spookware were shit
Eat my ass, Adam Pype
Make your game appealing enough, and people won't refund it. I've beaten some games in under 2 hours, and kept them, because I liked the game.
Don't make shit games, and people won't refund them.
Simple as.
Also Steam's not a monopoly. If you have a problem, take your business to your own webhosting, and offer no refunds.
if you want to make a flash game, make a flash game. places like kongregate still exist.
>Kongregate
Use Newgrounds. They are the website building Ruffle, the thing Kongregate borrows from them to run Flash games at all.
Now OP can be twice as moronic about picking his hill to die on.
The Indie scene needs a culling just as much as AAA studios
>Steam
>a monopoly
not true but effectively true.
Libertarianism debunked. you can't just "make your own Steam" when it's a first mover takes all market.
Basically every "alternative" explicitly offers worse service than steam though, and Valve doesn't actually use their market presence to stifle competition, in fact, you can USE non-steam games IN steam to benefit from their services.
The only thing that makes steam a monopoly, is that every other product is not worth using.
That's not a monopoly, that's just incompetence.
I'd be quite happy if everything was more like GoG. Everything was provided DRM-less and stores were just stores.
But that will never happen because of the focus on piracy instead of customer satisfaction.
Only game I bought this year was an indie game that was 10 bucks, because it was 60 hours long. I don't really understand guys who think something they shit out in a week that's under 2 hours long is worth money.
Could be worth like $4 bucks.
You know if it's like an arcadey type thing you'd spend 16 quarters to get through if you're pretty bad.
If a game is 30 minutes long if you're good/credit feeding, that's a totally different story. There are plenty of arcade games I've easily put 50 hours into over the years.
The guys complaining about their game being under 2 hours long are games you can completely clear in 2 hours and feel zero urge to replay because they were a total joke in terms of difficulty. I've lost count of the number of garbage rougelite things where they either just make the game unwinnable if you don't have enough stupid bullshit unlocks, or it's far too easy and you beat it on your second run after trying a few dogshit trap item combos.
I was more talking about it as a broad rule, rather than just a specific best case example.
Sell the shit game on epic gay store then its problem solved since steam is not monopoly forcing to sell it only on steam and you get bigger cut of zero sales if the biggest fear is that the game warrants refunds otherwise because it is done in under two hours and not worth replaying ever.
Is this even a real issue? What's an example of an excellent sub-2 hour game that failed financially due to Steam's refund policy? Or is this another case of fighting imaginary evils?
she doesn't look like she is thinking. it's ironic and therefore funny. She has the most blank fricking expression. Literal NPC uncapable of thought.
Don't worry, I'm not gonna buy and play your troony walking simulator in the first place, let alone refund it.
I've played a few games that I could finish under 2 hours and whenever they were good I simply kept them without refunding, either because I respected the work that went into it or because I might want to replay them one day. Maybe this attitude is due to me working in a family business and therefore respecting "the little guy", but I see this sentiment being shared in steam reviews/discussions and that makes me think there is in fact an audience capable of providing you financial stability if all you want to do is artsy niche stuff. A game's scale is correlated to the scale of the developer's investment after all.
They should just not allow refunds on things priced under 5 bucks or something.
>Barnes & Noble has a THIRTY DAY RETURN POLICY
>That's TWICE AS LONG AS STEAM
>AND there's no restriction on how many hours you spent reading it
How are books still being written?? Don't people understand that the medium is dead?
games should be refundable after any playtime. if some skinner box sucks up 1000 hours of your life before you break free, if, in hindsight, you regret that you should be able to claw back your dollars.
that way only games people like and feel they've got value out of will sell.
I don't think getting the $60 back on a game that made you miserable for 1k hours is going to really address the issues you had with it.
That's right, but losing $60 every time a player feels ripped off might change developer behavior.
>Hotline Miami
3 hours to complete
>FAR: Lone Sail
3 hours to complete
>Firewatch
3.5 hours to complete
>What Remains of Edith Finch
2.5 hours to complete
>Pony Island
2.5 hours to complete
>Pseudoregalia
3.5 hours to complete
>Spec Ops: The Line
4 hours to complete
>The Stanley Parable
3 hours to reach the Museum ending (considered the main ending)
>Superliminal
3 hours
>SUPERHOT
2.5 hours
>Terra Nil
4 hours
Presented without comment
Which site are you getting these metrics from?
howlongtobeat or my Steam time played
Indie slop
You're free to sell your shit on your own website and then hire a lawyer to defend yourself in EU courts from people who want to refund your game within 14 days.
Steam could simply add a tag for under 2 hours non refundable games. It helps all involved and I can easily filter these games out with a tag.
Not only that but devs would finally see that their sub 2 hour pixel "art" garbage are not as good or deserving of money as they think they are.
If your game isn't at least 2 hours long, it's not worth purchasing. Go make browser games or whatever.
Steam is only a monopoly because every other alternative (besides GOG) is shit. They are not strong arming anyone. They have never cared if a publisher also released their shit on other platforms.
And gog isn't even that good either.
I wish GOG would accept my credit card.
>$1 = 1 hour
This is the bare minimum quota, ig your 9,99 slop is shorter than 10 hours I ain't buying it.
You can make an under 2 hours game, as long as it's good people will keep it.
Anyone that would buy a game just to play it and refund it, even if they liked it, would've pirated it anyway.
I use the refund system mostly on long games that I realize are shit, games that don't work, and times when the publisher fricked me with a "sale."
>steam
>a monopoly
There's three other platforms you can sell your game on, EGS, GOG, and itch.io. If you're making a game that can be completed within two hours and you charge more than a movie ticket, you're a thief and a scammer. Your "art" is shit and is not even worthy of being in my library.
Minecraft was the biggest vidya a decade ago and was entirely independent.
Yeah, they sold it off their own website and it also used to be a browser game, too. Minecraft also has replayability. A $15 "art" walking sim about depression and abuse or whatever that has only one ending and takes about an hour to complete is not a worth-while investment. I'm not playing that shit again if I already know the story, I may as well just go watch a fricking movie or read a book.
>Minecraft also has replayability. A $15 "art" walking sim about depression and abuse or whatever that has only one ending and takes about an hour to complete is not a worth-while investment.
That wasn't my point. Minecraft was able to be crazy successful without Steam.
2 hour game with no replay value belongs in the trash can. I wish Valve was harsher on anti-games and gameplay hating amerishits.
So honest question, does GOG have DRM now?
I saw Yakuza Like a Dragon on there and that has Denuvo doesn't it?
I get they're still calling it "DRM-Free" but that's not really saying it doesn't have denuvo either.
Since Hitman, yes. They walked back on it after taking their sweet time on massive backlash, so you just know it'll keep happening.
>does GOG have DRM now?
If you count multiplayer modes requiring you to use GOG Galaxy, yes
>no gaming experience has any validity or deserves any money if it can be completed in under 2 hours
Correct.
Why would you need FUNDING for a game that is <2 hours? You seeking venture captial investment to make a startup for your fricking gamejam entry? Got a 5 year plan for your Unity asset flip?
two hour long games used to be free.
Flash era gaymin would blow the minds of these people
>games an art
>Blatantly beggs for Sweeney's sweet chink exlusivety yuanii
Proportional refund time sounds like a good idea on paper, but it quickly becomes complicated.
A dev submits a completion time for their game, then someone at Valve has to play and verify it (or possibly several people considering that completion times vary from person to person), and then create a unique refund time from the averages that has to be made clearly visible on the game's store page at all times.
It's a lot more trouble than just having a blanket rule for everything.
If your game is under 2 hours, atleast make it a game that people won't want to refund, or if you're really paranoid, just drop it on itch.io.
Vavle isn't a Monopoly.
This term is often misused due to what most of us commonly know Monopoly to mean.
Legally however it is a little bit different.
In order for Valve to legally be a Monopoly and therefore be committing a crime they must be snuffing out competition or chances of competition. They also could engage in unethical or underhanded business practices that result in others not being able to compete with them.
Just being a successful company, or THE MOST, successful company in any sector is not enough to warrant something as a Monopoly.
It's very rare that actual monopolies ever exist, the term is mostly just used to describe oligarchal systems where a small cabal of fricking gigantic companies have edged the market out of newcomers being able to enter by various means like lobbying for overregulation and buying out any newcomers.
It's actually not that rare, it's that they almost exclusively exist with regards to being given government benefits and you're not allowed to discuss the issue.
Like google, or cloudflare.
What if refund time scaled based on price? Say, 10 bucks an hour?
Refund time being 2 hours is good since refunds primarily used to check for bugs or to see if the game is worth the money invested. It being 2 hours long only harms really short games (hour or less) that are over a certain price point. Walking sims are the ones that are most likely to be overpriced for the time it takes to beat them. Most horror games are made to be 1-2 hours long.
>mention steam is a monopoly (this time it was from OP's image)
>the valve shills come in and start their scripts
Every single time.
>ESLs misuse words with latin origins because they are incapable of even the most basic level of learning
>Come in and get defensive when they're called out.
Every single time.
>games (works of art)
*games (an entertainment product your customers have to pay for)
If a game is good and beaten under 2 hours, I won’t refund it
If a game is bad and beaten under 2 hours, I will refund it
Simple as
there was some alien themed shovelware game recently that queries your steam play time and makes you do endless backtracking and wondering about at the very end of the game if your playtime is under 2 hours. Its amazing the kinds of tricks scam games come up with to trick streamers out of their money.
>2hr refund window is a private company's fault
It was an EU legal requirement lmao
Reminder that Milton Friedman PBUH was right about technical monopolies, and also everything
Steam got off easy, EU didn't want to bother too much. Normally you have a very strong protection of the consoooomer rights in the EU. EU laws permit a return for a full refund no questions asked days after a "purchase" was made. Basicly it's like entering a contract and contracts can be revoked in the first week (at least 1 week, in the shittiest EU places) no questions asked.
If you make a good game people won't refund it, even if it's two hours, just don't expect to charge more than $5 for it
I have more than 200 refunds on steam and am proud of it.
Funny that it doesn't cross this guy's mind that he could just make a game worth playing and keeping. I don't think Steam is in the wrong here.
>consumer rights are... le bad!
why are leftoids like this
>Why do people accept Valve's horrifically unfair refund policy?
Because it's pro-consumer? And because devs are aware of it before choosing to sell their game on Steam?
If I buy a book from a store and speed read it, I can still return it. If I'm fast enough, I could even speed-read it in the store. You make it sound like Steam is the only company that has a policy like this, but that's completely wrong:
>GOG allows 30-day refunds
>Epic has the same 2h policy as Steam
I'm sure every other major store has a similar policy.
So what you are saying is that thds moron from Twitter is moronic, and Op is moronic for posting a tweet here?
>games (works of art)
>Steam (a monopoly)
Motherfricker, if anything, there's too many different fricking launchers available.Epic, Origin, gog, Amazon, Xbox app, Blizzard, etc etc.
Just because Steam does it better doesn't make it a monopoly. Fricking commie morons.
Your sub-2 hour long indie game was not going to be financially successful if Steam got rid of their refund policy. If your game is that short, just make it free to get your name out there while you're working on something more substantial. Don't blame Valve that you can't get rich off of the video game equivalent of a haiku.
Wrong, you can price the game accordingly, and it's fine.
The Fears to Fathom games are all sub 2 hours, around 4 to 5 $ in price, and they're a fun experience to have in one night.
Obviously if you have a 1 hour indie game priced 20$, that's moronic, but it doesn't mean that a game needs to be X hours to be worth ANYTHING, that's just a stupid arbitrary logic that leads to padding.