But he's not wrong. For some 500 hours of gameplay, maybe 40 hours of that is the actual plot. And even that part isn't good. It's on the level of FFIV (some parts literally copied from FFIV). Melodramatic deaths of npcs that you forget 5 minutes later. Endless red herrings. All the scions are idiots. The villains are cliche. Etc.
>y-you just never played it!
Literally every time you don't blindly love the plot in a FF game, someone uses this comeback.
2 years ago
Anonymous
it's pretty obvious you haven't kid
2 years ago
Anonymous
>literally posts an image of my character in game >you just haven't played it!
Are you going to make an actual counter point? Or just keep using the same deflection all FFXIV fans use.
2 years ago
Anonymous
We know you don't know how to read speedreader-kun.
If you removed all the MMO filler quests, it would be maybe 40 hours. And even then, many of the key plot scenes are dragged out with tons of filler dialogue.
>it's massive >it's multiplayer >it's online >it's also an rpg
>FFXIV >multiplayer
95% of the game is single player. The only multiplayer is a few dungeons and raids. It's as "multiplayer" as TORtanic is.
Because it's always a dull waste of time. You shouldn't need more than 2 hours to tell any kind of story so 8 hours is already being extremely generous.
The binge format series where each episode is a really slow movie is also a waste of time.
As for why you didn't see me seething about it, it's because THIS IS A FRICKING VIDEOGAMES BOARD
Binge watching only started being a thing with Netflix where they purposefully make long, contemplative shows that try maximizing viewing time, with seasons all released at the same time.
2 years ago
Anonymous
>was born after 2000
2 years ago
Anonymous
>incorrect strawman
Absolutely no TELEVISION show could ever be designed as they currently are. I'd say original Star Trek has that slow vibe but it's highly episodic and the slowness is more a symptom of the times rather than the format.
Modern netflix shows could be easily compressed into 1/4th of their length but their worth is measured by how many minutes they waste rather than how much they can do with a limited time slot like in TV.
2 years ago
Anonymous
binge watching is just watching a show without end moron anyone can do that back then especially when dvds were released
I mean, the live action series came at the height of Injustice, Invincible, Venture Bros. had a new season I think at the time, The Tick reboot. So I get it, but the Boy isn't "If Superman but bad", it's "if heroes were money grubbing hedonistic children". Literally shitting on the commercialization and the narrative they pushed. The comics and live actions series is edgy, but it's not out to win an Emmy or anything.
I do love the edge, but there are characters and motives that I do appreciate.
2 years ago
Anonymous
It just feels like Gennis writes edge for edge's sake, like Crossed and The Boys
2 years ago
Anonymous
I can like edge, and those are two vehicles made with 'edge' in mind. Maybe Gennis has a darker sense of humor and his 'line in the sand' is longer than others. It's all fictional work, aesthetically I think it does good jobs or parody and homage.
The Black Noir thing, if anything, felt like forced ass-pull to wrap things up. Even Homelander's actual death is underwhelming. The rape, cannibalism and so on isn't even the worst thing the boys has talked of. I mean all of Herogasm was fine-ish. We saw penis vore and more gore. Crossed felt way edgier, I feel people are just sick of 'juxtapositions' to superhero media.
2 years ago
Anonymous
*does a good job of parody and homage.
At least visually.
2 years ago
Anonymous
>The Black Noir thing, if anything, felt like forced ass-pull to wrap things up.
It was built up for a while so I wouldn't call it an asspull. You're completely allowed to not like the twist.
It'd be more of an asspull if Black Noir was a character you see for the first few issues, then he completely disappears until the twist needed to happen. That's a better example of an asspull.
Actually, a better asspull that actually happened was the methods Butcher used to kill his crew (minus Hughie). They knew Butcher was going with his scorched earth plan, and then they just don't stick together and hang out individually at the base so Butcher can "conveniently" pick them off one by one. And then Hughie just fricks off until the final confrontation when all he really needed to do was talk to him (or at the very least beat his ass) as Hughie should know at that point Butcher wouldn't harm him, at least directly.
2 years ago
Anonymous
For the most part, yes. Especially in regards to Crossed. That's just Edge Porn for the sake of it. The Boys actually has a bit more nuance to it such as strong characterization, so it isn't only an edgefest.
Go read Rose Guns Days. It's R07's actual magnum opus. Don't trust my taste if you liked Umineko though since we're probably not similar at all. I absolutely hated it.
Not that guy how uncreative you and your writers have to be to run out of ideas in a series where the premise is "MC can wish for almost anything in the world".
Fairly OddParents lost a lot of its best writers after season 2. Just like Spongebob fell apart after season 5 or The Simpsons fell apart after season 12. The premise and ideas are usually not the problem on TV shows. It's the execution.
When new people take over, they don't follow what the people before them did. And even if their new ideas are good, people hate the changes in tone and characters.
I honestly feel like I wouldve liked it more if they stuck to the pilot where Cosmo was snarky smooth talker instead of full on plot-piece idiot that he became. there were SOME good gags we got out of it Super Toilet but for the most part he just gets flanderized to the extreme end way too much and becomes a hindrance to a episode. pretty much the fate of all Idiot characters in animated sitcoms.
also did anyone still care about this show after the channel chaser movie? or the Muffin Wish one? I forget which came first but I feel like FoP officially shoulda ended on one of those esp when his Parents learned about his secret but accepted it.
The Secret of Monkey Island is 6-8 hours and it's perfect like that, enough time to situate you in each island and develop a connection with every single character and environment without ever outstaying its welcome. My only complaint is that the long awaited boat journey is short and literally cucks you as a joke.
it reminds me of how gtav takes about 30h to beat, but the main story has to constantly pad itself with bullshit in order to get there. writers need to learn how to work with their game's length
You absolutely cannot have a story worth its time if it's 200 hours. An empty platitude like this doesn't deal with the actual issue that a longass story is inevitably going to be slow and meandering and generally a waste of time.
That book is getting a shitflix adaptation and it will be as long as the rest of them.
A movie would also be 1-2 hours as usual.
Books get away with being long because it's just the nature of the format but that doesn't mean in any way that longer is good.
Only games don't seem to respect people's time at all and it's all because morons value games by how long they are with stupid shit like "hours per dollar", no other media does shit like that.
agree with most big budget western games because you can feel them trying to pad it out and its more enjoyable as a movie-like experience you can blast thru in a couple sittings. But for some reason I just like a long ass jrpg. I feel like the characters are weaker in the short term, but then they slowly grow on you thru a 60-100+ hour adventure. And it just feels nice, cozy, easy going. Like with dragon quest or something, when I'm playing those type of games for an hour or so before bed, I just feel like it could go on forever and I'd be fine with it
Im gonna take you one step further. Most Animes shouldnt last longer than 1 season or like 8-12 episodes max.
most of the really good animes thats ever stuck with me have really been these short one and done type deals and Its on the writers to not asspull some shitty cliffhanger ending in a DESPERATE and pathetic attempt to get greenlit for another season (SEE: Paycheck). and frick these writers who want to just keep going forever like the One-Piece guy and Berserk frick who died or the HxH guy who just want to keep powerlevel wanking. annoying fricks.
It's not about the length but about how well it executes it. I've played 100 hour RPGs where I still wanted more story. And I've played 10 hour story games where it felt like it would never end.
as a gamedev making a story focused game, how do you guys really feel about this? is 8 hours enough? seems like the perfect length to me for an indie tbh
If the story's genuinely good, length doesn't really matter as long as it's consistently good throughout, which is obviously difficult to do. 8 hours seems pretty good for a first game
>YOU CANT HAVE A GAME THAT'S LONGER THAT EIGHT HOURS >HOW CAN I BEAT IT PLAYING A HALF HOUR ERRY OTHER DAY AND TALK ABOUT IT WITH MY COWORKRS WITHOUT FEELING LEFT BEHIND BY THE ONES WHO ACTULLY PLAY THE GAME!?!?!! >FRICKING CONDECNCE YOUR MASSIVCE FANTASE YTALE INTO AN EAZY TO ENJOY AND SIMPL EXPERIANCE YU FUKIN DEVSAIFS8IOUGRD0GUW-0IRQWE
Define "story-focused". A walking simulator shouldn't be any length, it shouldn't exist at all, but like, what's the border between "story focused" and "lots of story"?
Not him, but I don't think it's really about being story focused and more about how the story is executed. If the story feels engaging or reactionary. As well as if the characters or the player have agency or not. A story can be 100 hours long. But if its engaging, I won't care. However, if you're just sitting there listening to filler dialogue and the characters are stupid, like say Bravely Default or Golden Sun or Metroid Other M, then it'll suck no matter how long or short it is.
I have to agree with you OP. The longer a story is, the more diluted the main themes become due to all the meaningless events happening in between that have nothing to do with the meat of the plot. It's why I'm never going to play any Persona games.
Very few stories benefit from length, unless it's slice of life or it's multiple stories involving the same characters but each one contains different themes and messages.
>story-focused game
>game
>I'm moronic
Imagine Condensing FF14 and all of it's expansions down to 8 hours.
FF14 is not telling a story, it's only wasting your time with pointless garbage like hamburger eating scenes.
>Having a cute scene of the characters just being themselves while trying to deal with the stress of the world ending on their shoulders isn't allowed
brain dead mazed gay detected
have a nice day moron
But he's not wrong. For some 500 hours of gameplay, maybe 40 hours of that is the actual plot. And even that part isn't good. It's on the level of FFIV (some parts literally copied from FFIV). Melodramatic deaths of npcs that you forget 5 minutes later. Endless red herrings. All the scions are idiots. The villains are cliche. Etc.
you've never played xiv
>y-you just never played it!
Literally every time you don't blindly love the plot in a FF game, someone uses this comeback.
it's pretty obvious you haven't kid
>literally posts an image of my character in game
>you just haven't played it!
Are you going to make an actual counter point? Or just keep using the same deflection all FFXIV fans use.
We know you don't know how to read speedreader-kun.
SoL scenes are what give JRPGs soul though
>though
MMOs aren't games.
>MMO
>Story
You can't be this braindead can you?
Dont' worry, FFXIV isn't an MMO.
What makes it an MMO? Just because they say it's one?
>it's massive
>it's multiplayer
>it's online
>it's also an rpg
>multiplayer
not anymore.
>an rpg
Is it?
If it didn't have a half decent story I wouldn't have play it this long.
You absolutely could up to HW considering 90% of the content is pure filler.
If you removed all the MMO filler quests, it would be maybe 40 hours. And even then, many of the key plot scenes are dragged out with tons of filler dialogue.
>FFXIV
>multiplayer
95% of the game is single player. The only multiplayer is a few dungeons and raids. It's as "multiplayer" as TORtanic is.
Endwalker was so bursting at the seems with filler it was fricking painful.
>50 hours
>25 main quest/story
>25 optional
Perfection.
For me it's
>Main: 18 hours
>Main + extras: 23 hours
>100% completion: 30 hours
why?
Because it's always a dull waste of time. You shouldn't need more than 2 hours to tell any kind of story so 8 hours is already being extremely generous.
Where is your seething about non-episodic television series?
The binge format series where each episode is a really slow movie is also a waste of time.
As for why you didn't see me seething about it, it's because THIS IS A FRICKING VIDEOGAMES BOARD
>binge format
Serialized television existed before streaming you underage moron.
Binge watching only started being a thing with Netflix where they purposefully make long, contemplative shows that try maximizing viewing time, with seasons all released at the same time.
>was born after 2000
>incorrect strawman
Absolutely no TELEVISION show could ever be designed as they currently are. I'd say original Star Trek has that slow vibe but it's highly episodic and the slowness is more a symptom of the times rather than the format.
Modern netflix shows could be easily compressed into 1/4th of their length but their worth is measured by how many minutes they waste rather than how much they can do with a limited time slot like in TV.
binge watching is just watching a show without end moron anyone can do that back then especially when dvds were released
jesus christ
Sometimes its a ok though and works. Pic very much related
>woah, what if my capeshit evil
The Boys was made because Gennis hated capeshit.
oh... now i look like a moron
I mean, the live action series came at the height of Injustice, Invincible, Venture Bros. had a new season I think at the time, The Tick reboot. So I get it, but the Boy isn't "If Superman but bad", it's "if heroes were money grubbing hedonistic children". Literally shitting on the commercialization and the narrative they pushed. The comics and live actions series is edgy, but it's not out to win an Emmy or anything.
I do love the edge, but there are characters and motives that I do appreciate.
It just feels like Gennis writes edge for edge's sake, like Crossed and The Boys
I can like edge, and those are two vehicles made with 'edge' in mind. Maybe Gennis has a darker sense of humor and his 'line in the sand' is longer than others. It's all fictional work, aesthetically I think it does good jobs or parody and homage.
The Black Noir thing, if anything, felt like forced ass-pull to wrap things up. Even Homelander's actual death is underwhelming. The rape, cannibalism and so on isn't even the worst thing the boys has talked of. I mean all of Herogasm was fine-ish. We saw penis vore and more gore. Crossed felt way edgier, I feel people are just sick of 'juxtapositions' to superhero media.
*does a good job of parody and homage.
At least visually.
>The Black Noir thing, if anything, felt like forced ass-pull to wrap things up.
It was built up for a while so I wouldn't call it an asspull. You're completely allowed to not like the twist.
It'd be more of an asspull if Black Noir was a character you see for the first few issues, then he completely disappears until the twist needed to happen. That's a better example of an asspull.
Actually, a better asspull that actually happened was the methods Butcher used to kill his crew (minus Hughie). They knew Butcher was going with his scorched earth plan, and then they just don't stick together and hang out individually at the base so Butcher can "conveniently" pick them off one by one. And then Hughie just fricks off until the final confrontation when all he really needed to do was talk to him (or at the very least beat his ass) as Hughie should know at that point Butcher wouldn't harm him, at least directly.
For the most part, yes. Especially in regards to Crossed. That's just Edge Porn for the sake of it. The Boys actually has a bit more nuance to it such as strong characterization, so it isn't only an edgefest.
so you have adhd and thats everyone elses problem?
it may be my favorite piece of media of all time, but it is literally just a digital book my homie
You have shit taste. Read more VNs
Not him, but any recs? I've read two routes of FSN, Saya no Uta, Katawa Shoujo and Umineko
Go read Rose Guns Days. It's R07's actual magnum opus. Don't trust my taste if you liked Umineko though since we're probably not similar at all. I absolutely hated it.
I have, it's possible to subjectively like something more even if it has less "objective" quality
>Umineko hater is a moron
many such cases
Umineko is dogshit though. If you liked it, your standards must be very low
FOP was never good and Hartman is a hack.
>never good
c'mon it's fine
Not that guy how uncreative you and your writers have to be to run out of ideas in a series where the premise is "MC can wish for almost anything in the world".
Fairly OddParents lost a lot of its best writers after season 2. Just like Spongebob fell apart after season 5 or The Simpsons fell apart after season 12. The premise and ideas are usually not the problem on TV shows. It's the execution.
When new people take over, they don't follow what the people before them did. And even if their new ideas are good, people hate the changes in tone and characters.
Writing is not about ideas, it's about execution.
I honestly feel like I wouldve liked it more if they stuck to the pilot where Cosmo was snarky smooth talker instead of full on plot-piece idiot that he became. there were SOME good gags we got out of it Super Toilet but for the most part he just gets flanderized to the extreme end way too much and becomes a hindrance to a episode. pretty much the fate of all Idiot characters in animated sitcoms.
also did anyone still care about this show after the channel chaser movie? or the Muffin Wish one? I forget which came first but I feel like FoP officially shoulda ended on one of those esp when his Parents learned about his secret but accepted it.
Meanwhle, Persona 5...
...is a shitty waste of time.
hey i like that game 🙁
>game that you can beat in one evening
>luigis mansion on halloween
nothing better
>game that you can beat in less than 2 hours
>it also isn't a roguelite
Steam pretty much ensures no new indie games will ever be under 2 hours.
The Secret of Monkey Island is 6-8 hours and it's perfect like that, enough time to situate you in each island and develop a connection with every single character and environment without ever outstaying its welcome. My only complaint is that the long awaited boat journey is short and literally cucks you as a joke.
I can't care about stories shorter than epics, I need at least 30 hours of build up minimum
they can be 1 hours, they can be 200 hours
but the story must be worth that time
NOOOOO THEY HAVE TO BE MY ARBITRARY LENGTH BECAUSE I SAID SO! REEEEEE
this
it reminds me of how gtav takes about 30h to beat, but the main story has to constantly pad itself with bullshit in order to get there. writers need to learn how to work with their game's length
You absolutely cannot have a story worth its time if it's 200 hours. An empty platitude like this doesn't deal with the actual issue that a longass story is inevitably going to be slow and meandering and generally a waste of time.
>t. hasn't read One Hundred Years of Solitude
you *can* make a several hundred hours story that's engaging, although you need a lot of talent.
That book is getting a shitflix adaptation and it will be as long as the rest of them.
A movie would also be 1-2 hours as usual.
Books get away with being long because it's just the nature of the format but that doesn't mean in any way that longer is good.
Only games don't seem to respect people's time at all and it's all because morons value games by how long they are with stupid shit like "hours per dollar", no other media does shit like that.
Baldr Sky took me 180 hours, sure the story wasn't amazing, but it was very engaging
it's one of the best though.
I'd say Rance X did a pretty good job at having an entertaining story the whole 300 hours I spent playing it
AAA
>NO STORY-FOCUSED GAME!
ftfy
agree with most big budget western games because you can feel them trying to pad it out and its more enjoyable as a movie-like experience you can blast thru in a couple sittings. But for some reason I just like a long ass jrpg. I feel like the characters are weaker in the short term, but then they slowly grow on you thru a 60-100+ hour adventure. And it just feels nice, cozy, easy going. Like with dragon quest or something, when I'm playing those type of games for an hour or so before bed, I just feel like it could go on forever and I'd be fine with it
Im gonna take you one step further. Most Animes shouldnt last longer than 1 season or like 8-12 episodes max.
most of the really good animes thats ever stuck with me have really been these short one and done type deals and Its on the writers to not asspull some shitty cliffhanger ending in a DESPERATE and pathetic attempt to get greenlit for another season (SEE: Paycheck). and frick these writers who want to just keep going forever like the One-Piece guy and Berserk frick who died or the HxH guy who just want to keep powerlevel wanking. annoying fricks.
Reminder JRPGs are literal non-games littered with filler made to waste your time and mask the obsolete unengaging gameplay
It's not about the length but about how well it executes it. I've played 100 hour RPGs where I still wanted more story. And I've played 10 hour story games where it felt like it would never end.
as a gamedev making a story focused game, how do you guys really feel about this? is 8 hours enough? seems like the perfect length to me for an indie tbh
If the story's genuinely good, length doesn't really matter as long as it's consistently good throughout, which is obviously difficult to do. 8 hours seems pretty good for a first game
>YOU CANT HAVE A GAME THAT'S LONGER THAT EIGHT HOURS
>HOW CAN I BEAT IT PLAYING A HALF HOUR ERRY OTHER DAY AND TALK ABOUT IT WITH MY COWORKRS WITHOUT FEELING LEFT BEHIND BY THE ONES WHO ACTULLY PLAY THE GAME!?!?!!
>FRICKING CONDECNCE YOUR MASSIVCE FANTASE YTALE INTO AN EAZY TO ENJOY AND SIMPL EXPERIANCE YU FUKIN DEVSAIFS8IOUGRD0GUW-0IRQWE
holy projection batman
Hey if you have problems with story games being too long then just wait for them to make a movie out of it.
>T. ADHD
Take your pills and get out
Yeah, I'm tired of cinematic games with a bunch of useless filler.
Define "story-focused". A walking simulator shouldn't be any length, it shouldn't exist at all, but like, what's the border between "story focused" and "lots of story"?
Not him, but I don't think it's really about being story focused and more about how the story is executed. If the story feels engaging or reactionary. As well as if the characters or the player have agency or not. A story can be 100 hours long. But if its engaging, I won't care. However, if you're just sitting there listening to filler dialogue and the characters are stupid, like say Bravely Default or Golden Sun or Metroid Other M, then it'll suck no matter how long or short it is.
I have to agree with you OP. The longer a story is, the more diluted the main themes become due to all the meaningless events happening in between that have nothing to do with the meat of the plot. It's why I'm never going to play any Persona games.
Very few stories benefit from length, unless it's slice of life or it's multiple stories involving the same characters but each one contains different themes and messages.