Building friendship with Togepi sucks, it's way too underpowered and learns no attacks for 20 levels straight.
It's a long and pointless grind and the evolution isn't even that good.
They were a good idea. They probably moved a lot of merch, and they encouraged players to experiment with the breeding mechanic (Though I never managed to figure that out when I was like 6)
Also, Tyrogue is a worthwhile addition just for linking the Hitmons together, and Togepi shouldn't even count
The Baby Pokemon were a good idea, and I don't think his quote is specifically referring to the Baby Pokemon, rather other design attributes from Johto (like rounder and softer features in their anatomy and simpler palettes.) I do think that the idea goes deeper than just a design level though, rather it lies in the aftermath of Pokemania and the younger audience latching onto the trend late after it normalized, thus becoming 'uncool' in a sense, and you can tell in every aspect of Gen 3 from it's creature designs to marketing, it was overly trying hard to 'be cool!'
togepi line remains one of my favourite sets of designs in the games.
most of the others are take-it-or-leave-it but i don't find them terribly offensive, and the concept makes sense.
The "Not Terrible" Pokemon and Chingling should belong in that highest tier. Those are all Pokemon whose BSTs and stats would be too powerful for EARLY early game.
That said, this chart explains perfectly how there are good baby Pokemon and bad baby Pokemon. The good ones allow Pokemon lines to be introduced more early. Think finding Elekid/Magby right before the 2nd Gym in BW2, or Mantyke in USUM (though you do have to backtrack to get it). The bad Baby Pokemon are the ones whose base forms are already balanced for early game. Think being able to find Pichu and Pikachu in the exact same fricking location in USUM.
The stupid thing is how Gamefreak doesn't always apply this well.
Happiny's execution is ridiculously botched, since you can encounter Chansey right after the route you get it in. Agree with everything else otherwise, although it's worth noting the Gen 2 babies only retroactively became well-designed due through the (shiny only) Odd Egg in Crystal and application in later gens, with them being optional grinds in original GS.
>Pointless - Base forms are already balanced for early game
The point is marketing. >Pointless - Didn't need to exist given the nature of Wobbuffet's gimmick
Why not?
>The point is marketing.
Well that absolutely failed, because nobody even at the time talked or cared about them except for Pichu. And I say this as someone who loves Igglybuff and Cleffa.
>crying about babies when the bottom 4 fully justify their existence as 1st stages and togepi is an original line
Even then it doesn't really matter. They're just cute, younger forms that stand out.
Togepi, tyrogue, smoochum, elekid and magby were good ideas because togepi wasn’t a pre-evo to an existing pokemon but rather a brand new one and mons such as the hitmons, jynx, magmar and electabuzz coming out of eggs would be absolutely moronic, someone post the heatmor comic. Pichu, cleffa and igglybuff were moronic ideas though
Baby Pokémon were originally locked behind breeding so they were an incentive to use the Day Care. In later games, baby Pokémon would allow for certain evolution families to be made available earlier than they would be for game balance. A prime example would be Budew, who is the Oddish of Sinnoh and was introduced in Route 204 as Roselia would be too strong for this point in the game. Baby Pokémon are also useful for marketing purposes as Pichu and Togepi were everywhere in GSC’s marketing while Mantyke and Munchlax were available for DPP.
The problem with Budew is that it’s honestly worthless in battle and you can capture wild Roselia after the second gym, before your early game Budew would have evolved if you weren’t running in circles like an autist trying to raise friendship. It honestly should have just been a level evo like Magby and Elekid, who are actually balanced for the campaigns like BW2 where you can obtain them early.
babymons were fine in theory but they made too many. Jigglypuff can be found before the first gym in GS, and both it and clefairy are not at all OP to have at any point in the game. The others would have been fun additions if you could catch them in the wild within the first two gyms max. Smoochum, Elekid and Magby also evolve way too late. You can catch a Magmar in Ecruteak when your team would be low-mid 20s. They should all evolve at level 20 max, making it worth using them it to get that small powerspike that would be appreciated for the 3rd gym.
Hoenn did not need any babymons but at least it didn't go nuts, but Sinnoh went full moron, giving more babyforms to more shitmons. Chimeco itself would fall off after the 2nd gym in sinnoh, yet you put its baby form in the wild like 3-4 gyms in? Who is going to use that, ever?
What I wonder is why Riolu needed to be a baby Pokemon at all. Sure, it's a friendship evo, but so is Buneary and that's not a baby Pokemon. Most baby Pokemon manage to feel like babies, but in Riolu's case, what realistically is differentiating it from, say, a Machop or a Timburr such that it needs to be classed as a baby form?
Baby pokemon should be fine, but only the ones that fulfill some kind of design purpose, like giving a Pokemon that's too big/could not conceivably be small enough to hatch from an egg at some point in its lifespan based upon its anatomy, a preceding form.
Togepi, Riolu, and Toxel are fine but they didn't really need to be designed as babies since they're introduced in the same gen as their evolutions. Magby, Smoochun, Elekid, Tyrogue Mantyke, Budew, Happiny, Munchlax, Bonsly, and Mime Jr. all successfully make their lines have a more believable place in the world. Pichu, Cleffa, Igglybuff, Chingling, and Azurill are wholly unnecessary, but a minority.
You might argue that Sudowoodo, Chansey, Mantine, and Snorlax actually do have simple enough designs that they could conceivably be small at some point in their lifespans, but I still don't find their baby pre-evos egregious.
Babies are based if used right though. If they either A) give you access to a cool Pokémon earlier (Magby, Elekid, Budew) or B) connect obviously related lines (Tyrogue) they’re based af
Gen 2 had extremely strict limits to the amount of pokemon allowed due to tech limits and the majority of space already being taken up by Gen 1 Pokemon. Some people believe that dex space used by baby pokemon would have been better used for evolutions for the single stage Pokemon, or even more ghost or dragon types seeing as there are gym leaders those types and "Dragon" champion.
Considering how much crap Gen 2 gets for "shitmons", how most Gen 2 pokemon got little to no attention in their own generation, except for the babies, and how game freak themselves seems to regret baby pokemon it we assume OP isn't a mistranalteion, I'm somewhat inclined to believe the anti-babymon crowd despite being otherwise ambivalent toward baby pokmeon.
Normies left Pokemon as soon as they baby it up for women
This is a undisputable fact. No wonder why we didn't get a single Gen 2 monster transferrable in Gen 3
There was no groundwork about it
There were plenty of kids waist-deep in pokemania who never owned or played the games
They had to have made way more cash off merchandise even in gen 1
Baby Pokemon were a good idea, the way they were implemented was not. Too many babies for mons that didn't need it and too few available early enough compared to their evos to make a difference
A pedophile probably
All the pokemon on the left are better designs than Groudon except maybe for Igglybuff
You are mentally infantile
no they aren't
Based & correct. Groudon looks like a nondescript mess. The babies are at least just cute non-offensive designs with pleasing shapes
i would hate them less if friendship wasn't such an annoying fricking timewasting mechanic
I never heard of anyone having issues with friendship other than literal children. You might have attention issues.
nah friendship sucks when you arent using an ingame mon
its almost always painfully slow to get to max
nta but friendship in gen 2 sucks complete ass and also dick
you clearly never tried getting umb/esp in those fricking games. Actual bullshit time-wasting mechanic
I have both and I had fun getting them.
I take it you've never used buneary
Building friendship with Togepi sucks, it's way too underpowered and learns no attacks for 20 levels straight.
It's a long and pointless grind and the evolution isn't even that good.
>use Budew in Platinum
>by the time it evolves you’ve missed out on several moves and could have just caught a wild Roselia with those moves anyway
You are supposed to help Pokémon grow stronger, so having them start out as babies is thematically a good idea. I don't understand the hate they get.
They were a good idea. They probably moved a lot of merch, and they encouraged players to experiment with the breeding mechanic (Though I never managed to figure that out when I was like 6)
Also, Tyrogue is a worthwhile addition just for linking the Hitmons together, and Togepi shouldn't even count
The Baby Pokemon were a good idea, and I don't think his quote is specifically referring to the Baby Pokemon, rather other design attributes from Johto (like rounder and softer features in their anatomy and simpler palettes.) I do think that the idea goes deeper than just a design level though, rather it lies in the aftermath of Pokemania and the younger audience latching onto the trend late after it normalized, thus becoming 'uncool' in a sense, and you can tell in every aspect of Gen 3 from it's creature designs to marketing, it was overly trying hard to 'be cool!'
Someone should tell him all of the fans think the new games are too fricking moronic, SHITTY, AND homosexualY so they stop being that way
Cope
Women, once again, ruin everything.
togepi line remains one of my favourite sets of designs in the games.
most of the others are take-it-or-leave-it but i don't find them terribly offensive, and the concept makes sense.
The "Not Terrible" Pokemon and Chingling should belong in that highest tier. Those are all Pokemon whose BSTs and stats would be too powerful for EARLY early game.
That said, this chart explains perfectly how there are good baby Pokemon and bad baby Pokemon. The good ones allow Pokemon lines to be introduced more early. Think finding Elekid/Magby right before the 2nd Gym in BW2, or Mantyke in USUM (though you do have to backtrack to get it). The bad Baby Pokemon are the ones whose base forms are already balanced for early game. Think being able to find Pichu and Pikachu in the exact same fricking location in USUM.
The stupid thing is how Gamefreak doesn't always apply this well.
Happiny's execution is ridiculously botched, since you can encounter Chansey right after the route you get it in. Agree with everything else otherwise, although it's worth noting the Gen 2 babies only retroactively became well-designed due through the (shiny only) Odd Egg in Crystal and application in later gens, with them being optional grinds in original GS.
>Pointless - Base forms are already balanced for early game
The point is marketing.
>Pointless - Didn't need to exist given the nature of Wobbuffet's gimmick
Why not?
>The point is marketing.
Well that absolutely failed, because nobody even at the time talked or cared about them except for Pichu. And I say this as someone who loves Igglybuff and Cleffa.
toxel isn't A baby pokemon,
just a baby pokemon.
It’s an actual baby, it can’t breed
I would move wynaut up by a tier just because it's kind of funny to be able to give wobuffet encore
Swap Wynaut and Budew. Roselia was already an early-route mon.
>crying about babies when the bottom 4 fully justify their existence as 1st stages and togepi is an original line
Even then it doesn't really matter. They're just cute, younger forms that stand out.
Togepi, tyrogue, smoochum, elekid and magby were good ideas because togepi wasn’t a pre-evo to an existing pokemon but rather a brand new one and mons such as the hitmons, jynx, magmar and electabuzz coming out of eggs would be absolutely moronic, someone post the heatmor comic. Pichu, cleffa and igglybuff were moronic ideas though
Give baby pokemon 6 moves and 2 special abilities, then their existence can be justified.
OH NO NO NO COOLBROS WE GOT TOO KIDDY
This looks like some one mistook Marril for a Gen 3 pokemon and tried to make a shitpost on how it would look like if if came from Gen 2.
I'm neutral on babies but elekid, magby, and smoochum were a good idea squandered by not being found wild.
Baby Pokémon were originally locked behind breeding so they were an incentive to use the Day Care. In later games, baby Pokémon would allow for certain evolution families to be made available earlier than they would be for game balance. A prime example would be Budew, who is the Oddish of Sinnoh and was introduced in Route 204 as Roselia would be too strong for this point in the game. Baby Pokémon are also useful for marketing purposes as Pichu and Togepi were everywhere in GSC’s marketing while Mantyke and Munchlax were available for DPP.
Magby and Elekid were also implemented well in BW2
The problem with Budew is that it’s honestly worthless in battle and you can capture wild Roselia after the second gym, before your early game Budew would have evolved if you weren’t running in circles like an autist trying to raise friendship. It honestly should have just been a level evo like Magby and Elekid, who are actually balanced for the campaigns like BW2 where you can obtain them early.
i like cleffa and elekid and the gen4 ones
rest can die in a fire
babymons were fine in theory but they made too many. Jigglypuff can be found before the first gym in GS, and both it and clefairy are not at all OP to have at any point in the game. The others would have been fun additions if you could catch them in the wild within the first two gyms max. Smoochum, Elekid and Magby also evolve way too late. You can catch a Magmar in Ecruteak when your team would be low-mid 20s. They should all evolve at level 20 max, making it worth using them it to get that small powerspike that would be appreciated for the 3rd gym.
Hoenn did not need any babymons but at least it didn't go nuts, but Sinnoh went full moron, giving more babyforms to more shitmons. Chimeco itself would fall off after the 2nd gym in sinnoh, yet you put its baby form in the wild like 3-4 gyms in? Who is going to use that, ever?
>yet you put its baby form in the wild like 3-4 gyms in?
it's right outside eterna city, you can get it before the 2nd gym. play the games.
Gen 3 is for real fans who value the games gen 2 is for babies who only buy the toys
What I wonder is why Riolu needed to be a baby Pokemon at all. Sure, it's a friendship evo, but so is Buneary and that's not a baby Pokemon. Most baby Pokemon manage to feel like babies, but in Riolu's case, what realistically is differentiating it from, say, a Machop or a Timburr such that it needs to be classed as a baby form?
Hardest mfs to find and complete research in PLA.
the were expanding the lore
Baby pokemon should be fine, but only the ones that fulfill some kind of design purpose, like giving a Pokemon that's too big/could not conceivably be small enough to hatch from an egg at some point in its lifespan based upon its anatomy, a preceding form.
Togepi, Riolu, and Toxel are fine but they didn't really need to be designed as babies since they're introduced in the same gen as their evolutions. Magby, Smoochun, Elekid, Tyrogue Mantyke, Budew, Happiny, Munchlax, Bonsly, and Mime Jr. all successfully make their lines have a more believable place in the world. Pichu, Cleffa, Igglybuff, Chingling, and Azurill are wholly unnecessary, but a minority.
You might argue that Sudowoodo, Chansey, Mantine, and Snorlax actually do have simple enough designs that they could conceivably be small at some point in their lifespans, but I still don't find their baby pre-evos egregious.
Babies are based if used right though. If they either A) give you access to a cool Pokémon earlier (Magby, Elekid, Budew) or B) connect obviously related lines (Tyrogue) they’re based af
I’ve never understood the seething hatred some of you have for babies. I don’t love them but I also don’t mind their existance for the most part.
Gen 2 had extremely strict limits to the amount of pokemon allowed due to tech limits and the majority of space already being taken up by Gen 1 Pokemon. Some people believe that dex space used by baby pokemon would have been better used for evolutions for the single stage Pokemon, or even more ghost or dragon types seeing as there are gym leaders those types and "Dragon" champion.
Considering how much crap Gen 2 gets for "shitmons", how most Gen 2 pokemon got little to no attention in their own generation, except for the babies, and how game freak themselves seems to regret baby pokemon it we assume OP isn't a mistranalteion, I'm somewhat inclined to believe the anti-babymon crowd despite being otherwise ambivalent toward baby pokmeon.
So why did they stop adding cool pokemon?
Pedos and women
Ugh, i hate Johto.
Wow actually stylized and original creatures and not just my mom's animals!
>jothotoddlercons not taking responsibility that they killed Pokemania
>moron spreading the lie the Pokemania was “killed” rather then just dying off like all fads do
Go back
Normies left Pokemon as soon as they baby it up for women
This is a undisputable fact. No wonder why we didn't get a single Gen 2 monster transferrable in Gen 3
>what idiot though baby pokemon were a good idea
The guy in charge of selling merch
He got promoted
They were preparing the groundwork for the incoming eternal profit that are Pokémon plushies
There was no groundwork about it
There were plenty of kids waist-deep in pokemania who never owned or played the games
They had to have made way more cash off merchandise even in gen 1
>you can impregnare Ralts but not Riolu
seriously why?
Baby Pokemon were a good idea, the way they were implemented was not. Too many babies for mons that didn't need it and too few available early enough compared to their evos to make a difference