Official type power level tier list (empirical)
>SS Tier
1. Fairy
>S Tier
2. Steel
3. Ghost
4. Water
5. Ground
>A Tier
6. Fire
7. Flying
8. Fighting
>B Tier
9. Electric
10. Dark
11. Dragon
>C Tier
12. Poison
13. Psychic
14. Bug
15. Grass
>D Tier
16. Normal
17. Rock
18. Ice
>Ice
>Grass
>below Bug
This KILLS the Yawngay and is also entirely correct
How assblasted do you have to be to call people playing the game normally campaignshitters?
It's not that they play the game normally. It's that they play the game normally and then pretend they have any intelligent takes about the balance of the game.
Post elo
Fairy type IS broken and SHOULD be weak to bug
Ice type DOES need a buff (dealing neutral damage to water)
Rock type DOES need a buff as well
t. Compgay
>Ice type DOES need a buff (dealing neutral damage to water)
Ice is already really good offensively. Not the best, but it's in the top 5. What it needs is a defensive buff.
Make Ice resist Water, but turn Scald into a Water type version of Freeze Dry. It hits Ice types for SE damage, but its base power is nerfed to 70
ftfy
>Grass
>S tier
??!?!
>amoonguss, ogerpon, rillaboom used fricking everywhere
>"durff he hurr grass bad because I got hit by a super effective move from cynthia please take me seriously"
>calyrex-s is the single best pokemon ever made
>flutter mane rules the game right now
>durr ghost bad type
moron.
No one said Ghost is bad. Take your meds, campaignshitter.
>calyrex-s is the single best pokemon ever made
>flutter mane rules the game right now
Both wrong. Play the game.
>nuh-uh
i accept your concession.
>yuh-huh
i accept your concession.
please do not give your opinion if you are below 1700 elo OR below master ball rank
Post elo
first your adress
This was done with math
Dual types
Any "empirical" metric that puts Water at #1 is inherently flawed since Water is far and away the most populous type. If you were including the whole of the type, Water drops several places because it is rife with absolute shitmons like Lumineon, Huntail, Gorebyss, Corsola, Octillery, and Seaking.
that's not what people judge types by
They absolutely should since it makes more sense to take the type in its totality rather than just the overperformers.
if a shitmon would be a shitmon regardless of what type it is then it's not the type's fault
Interesting
dark too low
your math sucks
Dark is pretty dogshit
nta, but ghost being good makes dark automatically good
Bug type deserves more respect from game freak. Bug collecting inspired the game.
Absolutely. It has the making of a good type as it is, it just needs more love. Even if I don't think it's the worst type, I think it could use some nice buffs. Remove Fairy and Ghost's resistance to Bug, buff and more widely distribute Bug-specific abilities like Swarm and Shield Dust, and add more strong Bug type moves. It's a shame that the best Special Bug attack is 90 bp Bug Buzz even if it is one of the best 90 bp moves in the game.
Making more Bug types with good stats like Volcarona, Buzzwole, Lokix, Scizor, Heracross, Genesect, and Pheromosa would also go a long way to making people realize the type isn't just the designated shitmon type.
If you wanted an objective measure of what types are good, and what types are bad, you should look at usage statistic data for tera types. Tera allows you to pick your type, what tera type are people picking most often? Of course, this data would be somewhat skewed by what pokemon are doing the tera-ing. Although, by this metric, I am sure bug would be worst. This does not mean that all bug pokemon are bad, but it means that when a bug pokemon is good, it is good because of its other assets, not its bug type in isolation per se. Pokemon are not types. A typing being good in a vacuum is purely hypothetical, and is not the same as a pokemon being good in the real world.
i.e. bug is still the worst type, grass is one of the best types, fairy isn't the best type, and OP is a moron who doesn't know what he's talking about. Like what everyone who actually plays the game already knew.
bug wouldn't be worst, mons like heatran and ceruledge occasionally do it.
worst would be rock. there's not a mon in the game that teras rock, ever, aside from ogerpon-cornerstone which is far and away the worst ogerpon (gee i wonder why)
>Of course, this data would be somewhat skewed by what pokemon are doing the tera-ing
That's going to heavily skew what Tera types get used. Bug is a strong pivot type since it resists Grass, Ground, and Fighting while having uncommon weaknesses (with its only major weakness being patched up by HDB). You're not going to terastallize your pivot, you're going to terastallize your sweeper. If you're going for a defensive tera, it will almost always be Steel, Water, Fairy, or Poison since they're the best defensive types in the game.
Using VGC stats will also heavily bias your metric since Bug can't leverage its decent defensive profile in Doubles. Your Bug isn't going to be able to absorb an Earthquake or a Close Combat for the rest of the team, but being able to cover most of Steel's weaknesses is Bug's greatest niche.
Not entirely accurate since most Teras are used for complimenting typings. Like Heatran using Grass to cover its Ground and Water weaknesses.
stop feeding the troll
So why do we have to take VGC as the only metric of a type's viability again?
So why do we have to take a fanfic clown format as a valid metric of a type's viability again?
Because Smogon tiers are usage based meaning the best Pokemon get used more than worse Pokemon.
Why should I care about usage in a clown meta that barely resembles the game using a format the game isn't designed around and a bunch of tools that are arbitrarily banned?
Au contraire, Smogon is closer to real Pokemon since it's level 100 6v6 singles. Also, event legendaries aren't banned, you can use any Pokemon that isn't broken, up to and including box legendaries like Kyurem-B or Zamazenta, there is no item clause, and you aren't forced to give out a teamsheet showing your entire team + Tera type.
>Smogon is closer to real Pokemon since it's [format that’s supported literally nowhere outside of the toddler campaign]
I don’t like smoglets but the single player toddler campaign is 95% of the intended experience in Gamefreak’s vision
>switch mode, outleveling the opponent, full restore/revive/x item spam, and almost no npc having any EVs or a full team is the intended experience which is why no competitive format ever does any of those things
yeah ok moron
Yes, they literally make Pokemon for babies. Compgays are a secondary thought at absolute best and you’re delusional if you think otherwise
>Compgays are a secondary thought at absolute best
that must be why almost every new feature in the past two gens is for compgays
What new features even are there in the new gens? All I've seen is them removing features.
>All I've seen is them removing features
like what
The ability to turn off the EXP Share
The ability to turn on Set Battles
The Battle Frontier/alt battle facilities (PWT, etc)
Balance
The Battle Tower
Friendship
Good game design
Pokerus
Triple Battles
Rotation Battles
Fun
Half of the Pokedex (Dexcut)
Return
Pursuit
Frustration
Hidden Power
Signal Beam
>lists shit that doesn't affect competitive players in the slightest
thanks for proving my point
Competitive players are literally unable to comprehend Gamefreak is making these games with iPad kids in mind and not 30 year old men because the devs smart enough to throw VGC a bone every new gen.
nah, smogon stopped being useful for this stuff in gen 8. they've just been forcing their vision of the meta ever since then.
Huh? Smogon was the same as it ever was in Gen 8. If anything, they didn't ban enough things. Toxapex and Clefable never got banned even during the peak of stall cancer in the Isle of Armor meta.
banning dynamax, while necessary, set a dangerous precedent that anything can just be deemed broken and banned on a whim, and that fully came into effect in gen 9.
key mechanics like sleep that HUNDREDS of mons can use without being broken can now just be removed overnight because some troony doesn't want to ban iron valiant.
they quickban whatever they want, whenever they want, and no one can stop them. finch doesn't like playing against volcarona and SPL is coming up? ding dong quickban, we'll sort it out later. gholdengo strangling the meta since day 1? nah, some troony likes it so we're never suspecting it.
this is even trickling down to old gens where shit gets changed for the sake of it, like the time froslass got banned in gen 4 ou for literally no reason just because one guy didn't like it, and it took mass outcry from the gen 4 community to get that undone.
>banning dynamax, while necessary, set a dangerous precedent that anything can just be deemed broken and banned on a whim, and that fully came into effect in gen 9.
Dynamax was a shit game-breaking gimmick that no one with any sense wanted around. It didn't set a precedent though. Terastallization is still around without even the slightest action taken against it. Not even revealed Tera types at the beginning of the match.
And that's a bad thing.
>key mechanics like sleep that HUNDREDS of mons can use without being broken can now just be removed overnight because some troony doesn't want to ban iron valiant.
Sleep itself was busted in Gen 9 because of how violently hyper offensive the meta was. Darkrai is actually a good posterchild for this effect since it was a top tier Uber in Gens 4 - 6 while it was considered a shitmon afterwards because Dark Void got gutted. Why is that? It's because Ubers is insanely hyper offensive, so even 1 free turn can wildly swing the outcome of the game.
Gen 9 OU and UU have effectively become Gen 4 Ubers with their insane power levels. It's not just Iron Valiant and Darkrai that can annihilate your team if they get a lucky Hypnosis off, it's Pokemon like Volcarona, Roaring Moon, Dragonite, Kingambit, Skeledirge, Quaquaval, Iron Moth, Ogerpon, Gouging Fire, Iron Boulder, Blaziken, Ceruledge, Garchomp, and Raging Bolt that can directly convert a singular free turn into a win.
This is largely a byproduct of Terastallization giving these Pokemon a second free turn to do what they want thanks to the mindgames around Tera. Since Smogon didn't want to ban Terastallization due to the Dynamax ban backlash and they didn't want to ban another 10 Pokemon due to Sleep being broken, a ban on Sleep was inevitable. The last gen to be this absurdly hyper offensive - Gen 5 - has also banned Sleep entirely.
>Dynamax was a shit game-breaking gimmick
By definition it isn't since both players can do it on any of their Pokemon. Smogtards just banned it because "NUH UH I DONT LIKE IT!!"
>Sleep itself was busted
Maybe you should stop being bad at the game.
>IN SPITE of its typing
I love how whenever someone says this you instantly know they're a moron who has no clue how the game works.
>By definition it isn't since both players can do it on any of their Pokemon. Smogtards just banned it because "NUH UH I DONT LIKE IT!!"
That doesn't definitionally make it not broken. The mechanic was heavily unbalanced and favored certain strategies over others.
I played enough Gen 8 RandBats to get to 1900 ELO, and that's the only format that didn't ban Dynamax. I can tell you from experience that Gen 8 RandBats is the worst format in existence because of that. You could do everything right and have you opponent dead to rights in a 6v1 scenario only to lose it all because they had something like Gyarados or Kommo-o or G-Moltres in the back. If you didn't have a counter to them, you were guaranteed to lose no matter what. Nothing you could do about it.
you're only proving my point.
sleep is "busted" because they didn't ban tera, and they didn't ban tera because they realized they can do whatever the frick they want. instead of doing the reasonable thing, they're doing the thing THEY want to do, at the expense of the meta, and just making snap decisions with huge repercussions on a whim. you think sleep is ever coming back? not a damn chance. it's gone for good.
smogon has devolved from a format by and for the community to a "council" of a few select people who dictate everything and blatantly play favorites. it's a joke.
>sleep is "busted" because they didn't ban tera, and they didn't ban tera because they realized they can do whatever the frick they want.
That doesn't make logical sense. They didn't want to ban Tera because they were afraid of getting b***hed at like in Gen 8 when they banned Dynamax. They were way too measured in their response to Tera because they didn't think they could do whatever they wanted.
Also, Tera only narrowly avoided any action. 58% of the qualified playerbase wanted at least some action taken against it, whether it be an outright ban or just revealing Tera at the start of battle.
>you think sleep is ever coming back? not a damn chance. it's gone for good.
If Gen 10 isn't such a hyper offensive shitpile of a meta, Sleep will make a comeback. It was legal in Gen 6, 7, and 8 despite being banned in Gen 5. That's because 6, 7, and 8 weren't full HO. In fact, Stall was stronger than ever in those metas because Game Freak nerfed offense in Gen 6 causing the rise of Clefable and Mandibuzz.
>They didn't want to ban Tera because they were afraid of getting b***hed at like in Gen 8 when they banned Dynamax.
I mean, they're still getting b***hed at. Now instead of just one thing it's just a hundred little things.
The same shit is happening except in reverse because they're trying to overcorrect.
You could argue that not banning Tera is done with the purpose to micromanage all those smaller things that if Tera was banned they wouldn't be half as much of an issue as they are right now.
sleep was only unbanned in gen 6 because they fundamentally changed the mechanic by adjusting how sleep turns work, which forced a retest. there's absolutely no reason to expect that to ever happen again. the precedent is for banned non-pokemon things to stay banned, and never get retested unless they change entirely. you think they're just going to decide one day that king's rock deserves another shot, despite LITERALLY only being banned because finch lost to it one time and it set off his tard rage? get real.
>this is even trickling down to old gens where shit gets changed for the sake of it, like the time froslass got banned in gen 4 ou for literally no reason just because one guy didn't like it, and it took mass outcry from the gen 4 community to get that undone.
They unbanned Froslass? Thank god.
you know, it turns out they didn't. i don't know what i got that confused with, apologies.
Welp.
Man, I really hate all the retroactive shit on oldgens.
Gen 5 is completely and absolutely neutered thanks to that. Zero identity left to it. It's blander than bland.
Froslass was banned from Gen 4 UU, not Gen 4 OU. Gen 4 UU would get nodiffed by Gen 9 PU, that's how low the power level was down there. Just look at a small sample of some of the "heavyweights" in that tier:
>Kabutops
>Kangaskhan
>Hitmontop
>Hitmonlee
>Leafeon
>Absol
>Altaria
>Swellow
>Torterra
>Qwilfish
>Mesprit
>Miltank
>Ludicolo
>Scyther
>Steelix
Froslass is unfortunately unusable because Snow Cloak is banned. If it had a secondary ability, it would likely still be usable. Blame Game Freak as always.
>blame game freak for not balancing around my clown format
This is why no one takes smogtards seriously
>It's GF fault that some Gen 4 council autist got butthurt because he lost against a hail team once
C'mon homie.
Yes. Evasion abilities were busted during permanent-weather metas because you couldn't counter the evasion boosts. It's not Smogon's fault that Garchomp only had Sand Veil and Froslass only had Snow Cloak.
>Genuinely comparing Sand with Hail in Gen 4 and thinking they're exactly as good back then
This is the last (you) I'll give you.
have a nice day.
luv me 100% acc moves turning into critless stone edge
>B-but you could just use Shockwave and Feint Attack!
>Evasion abilities were busted
according to who?
People who played the metas
The ones who voted on the bans.
I never said they were exactly as good. Of course Sand was better - Tyranitar set and and Tyranitar was a top 3 Pokemon.
no one voted on the snow cloak ban. the thread discussing it was filled with experienced players saying it was a stupid idea and that they didn't support action against it, then the council went ahead and did it anyway because smogon is a joke.
They probably did it for consistency's sake so they could have a blanket-wide evasion ban.
"they" did it because one guy lost to froslass hail one time. even the people in support of action against froslass hail and evasion in general wanted a snow warning + snow cloak ban, for the sake of preserving froslass who had a unique niche in the meta, without any collateral damage because hail teams don't exist in gen 4.
this was ignored because smogon is a joke.
Wasn't the ban on Snow Cloak?
why are you trying to weigh in if you don't play the format and can't even be assed to look at the fricking analysis? shut the frick up.
That's Snow Cloak being banned, not Froslass. It's not Smogon's fault Froslass only has one ability.
yawngay posts, ignore.
- Froslass is evasion clause collateral bro. When gen 5 was the current gen literally a million years ago, they updated evasion clause to include sand veil / snow cloak. But undid it in gen 6 because no more perm weather i think? lol.
- I think they bamboozle themselves when they go to play old gens for one of their funny tours, and see inconsistencies in the clauses/bans/whatever.
- They've basically been having an internal crisis since like 2019-2020 re: complex bans and policy shit.
- I don't really mind the SV sleep ban personally Tbh.
- You know they banned sleep from gen 5 at the end of 2019 I think? I know gen 5 sleep is worst but still.
- Sleep is so RNG dependent, and requires annoyingly specific counterplay, I can empathize with them hating it in a similar vein to evasion.
- They messed with past gens before, namely in gen 7 when dugtrio got buffed, then they "suddenly realized" how broken trapping is in all the other previous gens, and began gutting stag/arena trap completely from everything but gen 3 over the course of 2018-2020
- Even though they butcher old gens, I do believe they have good intentions >.>
- I only wish they did SUSPECT TESTS FOR PAST GENS! Utilizing the ladders. You could even use the ladders to test out ban ideas. I think it could be fun. But if you don't respect ladder players, only tournament veterans, that's fine, I kind of agree, but you could at least use the ladders to experiment / gather data / ideas.
- On an SV note, is there an argument for keeping gholdengo/kingambit/valiant around? Like is the idea that not only do they check each other, but they check enough other things that banning them would make the tier worse? If I was in charge they would've been tested almost first thing. If you banned gambit, you might not feel the need to drop zama either.... Temporarily removing dengo/gambit/valiant from ladder for a test might be fun to try too.
- PS sorry for reddit spacing. You don't have to reply to me
caring about the viability of single types is moronic when 95% of viable pokemon are dual-type, with the only exceptions being gimmick mons or legendaries with hugely inflated BSTs.
>Dragon isn't even in the top 10 anymore
Last Gen I played was Gen 5 when it was a top 5 type. What the hell happened?
fairy
Dragon as a type isn’t really that good. Why it was solid was because majority of Dragons were Pseudos.
>having unresisted STAB against literally everything except 1 type isn’t really all that good
It is when your only options are underpowered (80bp Dragon Pulse/Claw) or have severe drawbacks (Dragon Rush, Draco Meteor, Outrage).
If anything needed to be done, nerfing Draco Meteor + clones and giving Ice a resistance to Dragon would've been reasonable. You could then make Poison SE against Water, take away Ghost's Bug resist, and take away Steel's Ghost and Dark resists to bring down the other types into line.
> It is when your only options are underpowered (80bp Dragon Pulse/Claw) or have severe drawbacks (Dragon Rush, Draco Meteor, Outrage).
None of those moves have severe drawbacks. They only had severe drawbacks when Outrage wasn’t buffes to 120BP and the entire type was locked to special moves only. Dragon was only balanced in gen 1-3. In gen 4-5 it was broken as shit.
>give Ice a resistance
Play the game.
Dragon was dogshit in Gens 1 - 3. The only good Dragon type during that entire 10 year period was Salamence, and Salamence was good IN SPITE of its typing. It often never even ran STAB, just using Dragon for its defensive qualities to switch in on Suicune and Celebi.
Outrage does have a severe drawback. It makes you a sitting duck if a Steel type switches in. Scizor and Ferrothorn cut their teeth on switching into an Outrage and punishing the Dragon types heavily for it. There's also Skarmory which was always really good. Not to mention Heatran, Excadrill, and Metagross.
Draco Meteor also had a huge drawback - Blissey exists.
>The only good Dragon type during that entire 10 year period was Salamence
are we pretending latios and latias don't exist? or did you forget them because you were too busy staring at the OU page on smogon?
Latios and Latias are straight up legendaries. They were considered better than Rayquaza in Gen 3 because of Soul Dew. Of course you're going to exclude legendaries from the data set because no one in their right mind is playing with them.
>Of course you're going to exclude [good Pokémons] from the data set because [they are too good]
Psychic isn't good just because Mewtwo exists.
You're right. It's good because Indeedee and Expanding Force exists.
>inb4 it doesn't count because Smogon hurt your feelings
>no one in their right mind is using good pokemon
You aight schizo?
>Good thing there were Steel types immune to Earthquake (Bronzong, Skarmory) and Fire Blast (Heatran)
Good thing none of those three Pokemon resist both and nearly every Dragon-type can easily carry both.
>Also, Fire Blast isn't even going to 2HKO the most common Skarmory set
Most common according to who?
>The mechanic was heavily unbalanced
By definition, it wasn't.
>and favored certain strategies over others
You mean like switching? Should switching be banned too?
I'd argue Dragon was never a good type. It just seems like it was overpowered because of Lati@s, Garchomp, Salamence, Dragonite (post-buff), and Hydreigon. We don't think that Rock is a good type just because Tyranitar and H-Arcanine are strong. Rock is still very much a shit type despite having some very strong Pokemon in it.
It wasn't a bad type by any stretch in Gens 4 and 5, but it certainly wasn't overpowered.
>but it certainly wasn't overpowered
It objectively was.
>Objectively
It objectively wasn't. Dragon was an upper tier type before the nerfs but not anywhere near the top 3. Strong Pokemon existing in the type does not make the type strong. You could make a type that is SE against everything and resists everything but make the only Pokemon with that type be Sunkern, Magikarp, Snom, and Feebas, and the type would still be OP even if only shitmon had it.
> Strong Pokemon existing in the type does not make the type strong
You’re right. Having unresisted coverage against the entire game while still being incredibly good defensively makes the type strong.
pre-fairy dragon was a good type for the same reasons ghost is a good type now and normal was a good type in gen 1. it barely interacts with the type chart, and pokemon is a game where the type chart is generally your answer to everything because everything is frail as frick and everything but the tankiest mons can go down in one good SE hit.
take any setup sweeper that exists right now and slap tinted lens on it. suddenly that mon is ubers, because there's few if any real answers to it. that's what being dragon was like.
But Dragon was resisted by the best and most common type in competitive in Steel. Sure, it didn't have a lot of type chart interactions, but there were so many good Steel types it hardly mattered. Metagross derives most of its viability in Gens 3 - 5 from being able to set up for free on Dragon types. Well, that and it really liked to blow up before the nerf.
>But Dragon was resisted by the best and most common type in competitive in Steel
wow good thing every dragon type doesn't have earthquake or fire blast they can easily slap into their three free moveslots from being able to simply spam their STAB at literally everything else.
Good thing there were Steel types immune to Earthquake (Bronzong, Skarmory) and Fire Blast (Heatran).
Also, Fire Blast isn't even going to 2HKO the most common Skarmory set, even from Garchomp. Skarmory straight up wins the 1v1 against Garchomp and shits out a million hazards in the process.
>0 SpA Garchomp Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Skarmory: 130-154 (38.9 - 46.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
Because the type itself was never the problem.
>having unresisted 1.5x+ coverage against the entire game while still having four useful defensive resists and only two weaknesses wasn’t the problem
Damn bug is pretty bad. Maybe they should buff it.
Just make it resistant to fairy. Eliminate fairy, ghost and figting resistences to the type.
The concepte of the early bug also skewers the averages a lot, because these things have pathetic stats even fully evolved.
Palkia and Rayquaza existing do nothing to help Flygon or Kingdra or Altaria or Druddigon or etc. Just like Volcarona and Genesect existing does nothing to help Beedrill or Dustox.
>Flygon or Kingdra or Altaria or Druddigon
Ah yes, the so-called "lesser dragons", who are considered shit despite having high stats and huge movepools by the standards of any other type. Even Druddigon has something like a 60th percentile BST and mogs the average Bug type in everything but SpA and Spe. If Dragon were such a busted type, you'd expect these Pokemon to rank higher than Pokemon of other types with comparable BSTs, no?
And yet despite their higher than average BSTs they're still shitmons.
? Druddigon's stats would be garbage if it was any type.
Also Kingdra isn't a shitmon, the fact that you think it is shows how fricking detached fanfic starers are from the actual game.
Druddigon's stats would actually be pretty okay with a decent typing. Ground/Water, Flying/Ground, and Ghost/Fighting would make real good use of those stats.
yeah bro totally
you definitely know what you're talking about
Gastrodon and Quagsire commonly find themselves in higher tiers when the need arises. It's good in OU, UU, RU, NU, and even VGC. It's just a niche Pokemon.
> Gastrodon and Quagsire commonly find themselves in higher tiers
And neither of them are used because of their stats. It’s almost like Druddigon would still be trash if you slapped another type on it.
Needs an x gen evo with delta or bw3
then eviolite phys wall + rough skin + rocy helmet can shine
Better way to rank types (no particular order)
Type chart defining types that influence other types viabilities
>Fairy
>Water
>Steel
>Ground
Types that are solid on their own but don’t define the type chart
>Fire
>Ghost
>Dark
>Fighting
>Electric
Types that are pretty good because they may counter the types in the top tier
>Grass
>Poison
>Flying
Niche typings that are deeply flawed
>Ice (debatable if it should be in a tier below)
>Psychic
>Rock
>Dragon
>Bug
Sucky ass typings that
>Normal
Move Ghost up a tier. It doesn't have a lot of interactions, but it's the one thing giving Normal a niche. No one would use Normal types after Return got BTFO if not for the vital Ghost immunity.
Ice and Normal should also switch places on your list.
Fairy was the strongest addition. Complete shitters like Azumarill, Mawile and Altaria suddenly became incredible.
Xerneas was also the best of Gen 6, and will probably get buffed soon.
>Mawile and Altaria suddenly became incredible
Are you talking about regular or mega?
Because it's very common that someone will mention Mawile and Altaria to only refer their Megas as the actual mon.
Evasion and OHKO moves are not “busted” in the same way shit like Zacian or Calyrex-S.
Evasion and OHKO moves are banned because most people don’t like gambling addicts and don’t want to play glorified slots every time someone mentally 12 wants to play but can’t play properly so they need to abuse gambling mechanics.
If VGC players had a say in their shit format, Evasion and OHKO moves would be banned along with Dynamax and clearly broken ass Pokemon like Flutter Mane. “But they balance for VGC” is a cope by Verlisifyshitters and Yawngay because they don’t want to admit GameFreak might frick up the balancing and wants to validate every shit decision they make.
i accept your concession.
Take your shit mechanics to a Casino, homosexual.
>ban grass type's best tools
>ban ice type's best tools
>play unsupported format that makes any type weak to rock inherently worse since the format itself makes switching an incredibly broken option
>HURRR GRASS AND ICE TYPE ARE BAD GAME FREAK SHOULD BUFF THEM
This is why Smogon is a fricking cancer on Pokemon discussion.
>ban grass type's best tools
>ban ice type's best tools
Never happened
spore and sleep powder are now illegal going forward, that's grass's best tools gone
atales is still kickin it though so i have no idea what anon meant by that
>inb4 anon says sheer cold and snow cloak
>NOOOO THOSE USEFUL THINGS THAT ARE BANNED DON'T COUNT
>ALSO PLEASE DON'T COUNT MOODY GLALIE AND MOODY SCOVILLAIN
Thanks for proving my point.
>Ice type’s best tools are things limited to only certain Ice types, most of which would rather run something else is 90% of cases anyways
>Said “tools” are also palette swaps of existing “tools” of Sand Veil and Fissure, or are on multiple other non-Ice types such as Bibarel or Smeargle
Btw go to gambling addict anonymous already, homosexualass.
>Ice type’s best tools are things limited to only certain Ice types,
You're right, Chien-Pao, Baxcalibur, Darmanitan, and Iron Bundle don't have access to those tools. I guess I can use them the-
>Said “tools” are also palette swaps of existing “tools” of Sand Veil and Fissure,
The Ice versions are better.
>It was Game Freak that deleted Grass' best tools
? Then why can I use Spore?
>? Then why can I use Spore?
You can't use Ferrothorn or Kartana though, and they are the best tools Grass type has.
the best tool grass type has is shaymin-sky THOUGH
>Shayflinch-Sky
Not even the best Grass type. Ferrothorn is A-rank in Ubers while Skymin is C-rank last time it was legal.
I just wanna say that Skymin reverting to regular Shaymin when frozen is the weirdest quirk I've ever seen a Pokemon have. Skymin is never going to get hit by an Ice Beam or Blizzard and live to tell the tale. How the frick did Game Freak expect it to get frozen when any Ice type attack is going to nodiff it?
>Useful
They're incredibly unreliable and will only allow you to unjustly win a game once in a while. Almost no one would run them even if they were legal since they're so inconsistent. For every 1 in 5 games you win because of the opponent missing a vital attack due to Snow Cloak you're going to lose even more games due to having an otherwise useless ability.
>They're incredibly unreliable
Then why am I winning games with them?
>and will only allow you to unjustly win a game once in a while
Then why did someone top a regional with them?
>Almost no one would run them even if they were legal since they're so inconsistent
Then why do people run them in the actual game, where they're legal?
No, Amoonguss is.
Sheer Cold hard counters any stall team so yes people would run it if it was legal you moron.
>corviknight used protect
>corviknight used substitute
>corviknight used protect
>corviknight used substitute
and now your sheer colds are gone
>Ninetales used Sheer Cold
>Corviknight fainted
and now your Corviknight is gone.
>And it's useless against any other style of gameplay
No, it isn't.
>and now your Corviknight is gone.
Yeah, in the one out of 3 games where you actually pull it off. That's why tourneys run Bo3 rules.
>Yeah, in the one out of 3 games where you actually pull it off.
I can pull it off multiple times because you're running a passive as frick stall team.
And it's useless against any other style of gameplay. Same reason you don't see Trick used often even though it can absolutely ruin Stall, and Trick is actually a good move.
>spore and sleep powder are now illegal going forward, that's grass's best tools gone
Rillaboom is still legal with Grassy Surge + Grassy Glide. It was Game Freak that deleted Grass' best tools when they deleted Ferrothorn and Kartana.
How did one Pokemon cause so much assblast for Yawngay?
They banned his crutch strategies (banned Dynamax, Evasion, OHKO, and Moody) so he’s forced to win via actual planning, strategy, tactics, foresight, and not just gambling or abusing broken mechanics.
All the mechanics you listed that your clown fanfic format banned do involve strategy and tactics and foresight.
they dont
they really
really dont
Yeah if you’re a campaignshitter without a basic understanding of how wincons work you would think this.
please tell me the strategy of relying on coin flips and I win buttons
You’re fighting an opponent and you’re both down to your last Pokemon.
Your Pokemon:
has 5% HP remaining
is faster
has Ice Beam, which damages 40% of the opponent’s total HP
has Moonblast, which damages 55% of the opponent’s total HP
Their Pokemon:
has 60% HP remaining
is slower
has a move that damages 70% of your Pokemon’s total HP
The turn is about to start. Which move do you pick to have the best chance at winning the game? You should know the answer to this.
none of them because if you're in this situation you arent winning the game
>because if you're in this situation you arent winning the game
according to who?
basic probability
explain how the probability means you aren't winning the game, campaignshitter. I want to see how your logic works.
how often do you nail 10% chances to hit in other games
10% of the time right?
its just not likely to happen even if your back is to the wall like that
So now you're saying that there's a 10% chance I win? I thought you said there was no chance of winning? Make up your mind.
You click spore which is 100% accurate and win the game. Damn freeze sucks lol.
You forfeit and take the L honorably rather than scum out an undeserved victory.
>Moody
Spam Protect and Sub, hope you get the right boosts, and hope your opponent is not running Haze.
>Evasion
Literally just hope your opponent’s Ice Beam doesn’t hit your Garchomp while Sand is up and while you’re using set up.
>Dynamax
There is no luck involved but all you do is use it after set up and it removes any foresight or planning you’d otherwise need to account for because you have double HP and are immune to bunch of shit that stops set up sweepers.
You’re fighting an opponent and you’re both down to your last Pokemon.
Your Pokemon:
has 5% HP remaining
is faster
has Ice Beam, which damages 40% of the opponent’s total HP
has Moonblast, which damages 55% of the opponent’s total HP
Their Pokemon:
has 60% HP remaining
is slower
has a move that damages 70% of your Pokemon’s total HP
The turn is about to start. Which move do you pick to have the best chance at winning the game? You should know the answer to this.
You know if Freeze was Frosbite you could've already inflicted the status and the oponent would have less than it's 60% HP, therefore rendering the choice clearly moonblast.
You’re proving my point.
You just wish and hope RNG can bail you out of a bad situation, when if you were a good player you could have avoided said situation.
>winning the game by playing to your win conditions is getting bailed out
If you don’t like RNG you should play a different game instead of trying to turn pokemon into something it’s not and then screeching for game freak to cater to you.
That’s literally what getting bailed out means, yes.
>winning the game is getting bailed out
whatever you say campaignshitter
>Being bailed out is not getting bailed out
ok campaignshitter
>Sleep, one of the basic status conditions in the game, is a "crutch strategy"
lol
Some people have all the luck.
Btw that series of plays 2 hypnosis hits into iron head flinch into 3-turn-sleep into focus blast hit = 2.52%
I would have broke my fricking computer if that happened to me LOL
(I posted it cuz it is on the thread subject of sleep. Date = 2015-08-15, good old days...)
>empirical
What's your methodology?
Fairy type should've been weak to bug
Agreed. Fairy needs more weaknesses and Bug needs fewer types resisting it. Being weak to U-turn would've balanced Fairy type and made Bug type into a solid mid-tier type.
The only people who disagree are Fairy-troons (AKA Game Freak's balance team)
Water type should’ve been weak to fire
Maybe you guys should just get good and ditch the shitty ice type for awesome grass type like Amoonguss who just won a regional. Spore > freeze
Here's an idea: What are the best arceus formes? This can shed some real light on the best-type worst-type debate.
Depends on the format around it. It's also not a super great metric because Normal Arceus is the best since it can hold an item and gets STAB Extreme Speed, but, in general:
Normal > Fairy > Ground > Water > Ghost > the rest.
Yawngay and whoever wants to fight him should duke it out in Anything Goes. And the rest of us can spectate the match 😀
Anything Goes is surely the only compromise format that Smog fans and GF sycophants can meet at.
AG has no rules. None of the smogon clauses or bans are in effect. It's pure cartridge mechanics. Purely everything Game Freak has created for you to play with.
Better yet, do a best-of-5; gen 9 AG, gen 8 AG, gen 7 AG, gen 6 AG, gen 4 AG
(for some reason gens 1, 2, 3 and 5 AG don't exist from what I can see, otherwise I would've suggested best-of-7 or best-of-9)
With the snow/hail rework and how absurd aurora veil is, ice is better off than it has ever been. Boots and tera certainly help as well. And that's just defenses. Offensively ice is still great. It's still not an exceptional overall type, and nothing besides a few snow abusers will use it as a tera type, but it is readily evident ice is no longer garbage in practice.
is normal on par with rock and ice? i know it has a lot of shitmons but it also has a decent chunk of good ones too like porygon-z, snorlax, slaking, wigglytuff, starraptor, etc. switch it with bug. also switch dark with fighting and ghost with water. otherwise decent list.
any list that has bug anywhere other than the bottom isn't decent
it's very obviously the worst type in the game and it's not even close
i mean it sucks major ass yeah but there's rarely an amazing one that rocks everyone's shit in, also u-turn. the same can't be said for rock and ice, i can't think of one pokemon that benefits from those types or even those moves sans ice beam which water types can learn obviously and stealth rock which nearly everyone can learn.
>the same can't be said for rock and ice, i can't think of one pokemon that benefits from those types
h-arcanine is better than vanilla arcanine and ninetales, sandslash, darmanitan, and articuno are all better than their non-ice variants. Pokemon like Iron Bundle, Chien Pao, and Baxcalibur would also be shittier if they weren’t ice type. You don’t play the game.
You don't play the game.
I do. Which is why it baffles me when OP makes these terrible lists with fricking GRASS somehow below Bug.
Bug
>7 resisted hits, used to be only 6 before fairy
>ONLY 3 weaknesses
Grass
>Also 7 resisted hits, have always been the must offensively cucked type
>FRICKING 5 weaknesses
You're a moron
>campaignshitter proceeds to list off the type chart as if if’s the only mechanic in the game that exists
every
time
You don't play the game.
i do play the game, i don't play the newer version of the game though aside from occasional randoms. it's just been boring since gen 7 where everyone just spams the broken moves and you get one shot or they get one shot, can't make an actual build or you get wiped by some preteen shitter. also in what universe is articuno good lol, did they buff him to compete with zapdos or something?