Why is it that every other major tabletop game has a following that still plays old editions? Dungeons and Dragons still has dedicated OSR, 3.5 and 4E players, Magic has a format for just about every era as well. But for some reason, despite every new edition of Warhammer having the fanbase screech about how the latest edition ruined the game forever, they largely still only stick to the current edition? It's a huge investment of time and money, so I personally wouldn't want to quit just because GW rolled out a new codex that invalidated an army I spent over a thousand dollars on, and I'm sure there are plenty of other guys out there that feel the same. Why aren't there more guys out there that stick to a certain edition and blow off everything that comes after? Hell, it'd probably even be cheaper now that there are all those outdated, secondhand models out there that isn't a part of "Current Edition" so newcomers could get into it instead of being eternal paypigs for GW. I'd actually like to play older Warhammer 40k games, but you just can't find players who are interested in it. Is it already a thing? I've never seen it.
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2nd Edition rulebook for those who might be interested.
That's an older version. Latest is this.
inb4 edition war over 2e rulebook editions
I exclusively play this and we're having a blast. What's your point
It is a thing, OP, but it's highly dependant on the location, U.K., Europe, Australia have oldhammer scenes, but from what I can see from my own limited investigation it's a bit rarer in the U.S. Oldhammer gaming is one of those D.I.Y scenes if there's nothing around you to begin with, hard to start, but great once it gets going. But getting it going is always the hardest part, since GW gamers will scream like you're pulling their teeth out with rusty pliers than even think of playing an old and CLEARLY inferior edition("if it was so good, why did they change it?"), but they'll happily keep up buying into the new edition that they seemingly don't like. It's like a beaten wife, really.
>It's like a beaten wife, really.
I hate that you're right about this. I've had a few guys ask me about trying to get into the older versions of the game and ask why adherents to older formats aren't that common when so many people clearly hate the new shit, and this is about what I told him.
>if it was so good, why did they change it?
for the sake of change because they need a continuing revenue stream. same as every other game company
game companies have 0 incentive to publish the perfect version of their game
Because warhammer isn't a roleplaying game. It might pretend to be a soft roleplay but it's obvious it's an ultra competitive card game with miniatures instead of magic cards
Just as people aren't playing old jank magic cards if the new stuff is an improvement.
Yugioh is much more competitive than 40k, but you still have a large following for goat and edison, which are more than a decade old formats. MtG also is seeing a rise in premodern, which doesn't allow new cards.
>Why is it that every other major tabletop game has a following that still plays old editions?
Because companies keep changing the games and people prefer the unchanged versions. Hardly complicated.
You know why there's never a backlash or an outcry when Chaosium releases a new Call of Cthulhu? It's because that game does not change when a new edition comes out. A new edition in CoC just means new artwork and maybe some errata. And they keep selling. Something to think about.
That was the case before 7th Edition came out and (for CoC) greatly revamped the rules.
I like the new rules, but they clearly are different, and once you change the rules, you split the fan base. You cannot put that genie back in the bottle.
We do do it, it's just more local, hell, there is a ruleset based on that book in your picture that exists for modern use of it.
Renegade Scout, good wargame, do recommend, nice mix of old school feel and polish of modern era so even a zoomer can actually play it.
You are after few scenes:
Oldhammer - specifically 1-3 ed fantasy, 1 and sometimes 2nd ed 40k
Middlehammer - 3rd ef 40k and what not
Herohammer - specific to WHF, 4-5th ed, quite fun can recommend.
But ya as others pointed out, plenty of ways to play.
Hell, as far as 3D printing is concerned, there are at least three sculptors I know off that specifically make oldhammer STLs, not to forget somewhat annoying to get into 3D scans of old warhammer minis.
>Hell, as far as 3D printing is concerned, there are at least three sculptors I know off that specifically make oldhammer STLs, not to forget somewhat annoying to get into 3D scans of old warhammer minis.
I'd like to hear more about these. Got a few guys around here that are interested in that stuff.
put in oldhammer on thingverse and check for yourself, from there you can go to patreons of few of those people, and as luck has it, most of them let you just pay once and download entire catalogue of theirs. I now own rescults of oldhammer style orks, chaos and normal squats and giant pile of other stuff on the side.
>squats
where do i find thede anon? i've been digging for a while and can only find votann and some ok at best squats troops wise (theres some great options vehicle wise though.)
You find votann? I been looking for em (want some to bulk out by squat force), but I been mostly finding em from here:
https://www.thingiverse.com/jazzmantis/designs (their patreon also got some neat stuff)
And mixing in some bits of dwarf models.
To be honest, there should be also small folder of squat scans floating about, I might still have it. Anyone got a throw away place to dump em so people can nab em?
Monstrous encounters and Fabelzel have lots of oldhammer stls.
>because the latest edition of warhammer is objectively the best one, nobody wants to play a dead unsupported boomer wargame with archaic mechanics.
what does unsupported even mean? no new primarch toys and shitty meme units? no points cost adjustments and errata coming out every two weeks? sounds like an improvement tbh
Usually it means not legal in tournaments but since gamesworkshop doesn’t even run the tournaments… I guess it means front line gaming let’s you use 3d prints in games but “they can’t look like shit”
>9th edition
>IG uses its 8th edition codex for 90% of the edition
>9th edition codex comes out two months before 10th edition
It is absolutely an improvement
Unsupported means no weekly dopamine bump for TikTok-brained zoomers who can’t deal with the idea that a ruleset or game might be finite in scope.
Unsuported means no 100+ new marine profiles every 4 years.
For xenos like tau support has meant 3 giant robots and a ugly plane that don't fit at all the combined arms theme of the army.
In 4th edition marines where still a normal army with a sane amount of profiles.
I’m actually working on finishing the 3rd edition Tau army I started as a kid. All cool models, everything makes sense in the army. 4th added some fun stuff, then it’s really all downhill from there.
Honestly every unit that actually needed to exist in the game, existed by the end of 5th edition, and this is coming from a borderline zoomer
including Dark Eldar?
yes? didnt deldar actually end up losing shit over the years or am i just a moron?
They gained a nice pile of things in their 5e codex, but it looks like they've just not been expanded upon since then and have lost options as the editions creeped onward.
Those options exist it's just GW does not actually sell them. There was a made to order thing and then those models are on ebay for 2 or 3 times what GW sold them for.
Ironically I was into Deldar as a kid 15 years ago and there were NO MODELS then and now as an adult with actual money I got myself a Sslyth and a Combat Patrol and nothing else because there are still most of the models simply not in print. Pretty nuts that I missed out on that period like 5 years ago where Deldar were getting support, but I had no dollars then.
I can't buy around 20% of their datasheet. Some of that may be made-to order finecast shit. I shall consult the oracles and read the stars to see if that availa...too late missed it.
I have to trawl through 3 different recasters in order to Put a Court of the Archon together. That's just a 4 man bodyguard unit. On the plus side, it's almost guaranteed to be better quality than anything coming out of finecasts grungy old molds.
Forget about aircraft or beastmasters. My best option is to convert Necromunda shit or trawl through second hand listings.
Meanwhile, have yet another marine with a headswap and a slightly different action pose.
That's called a zillennial and it encompasses everyone insecure about their age born in the 1990s.
>why is Stagnation bad lol
>noooooooo you need to constantly be making unnecessary changes, and then introduce new changes because those designs were poorly conceived nooooooo you need to undermine your setting or else it's boring
Marvelhammer Primarishomosexual 40,000 detected.
>REEEEE why does chess not have monthly erratas??? why does the bishop only ever go diagonally???? omg its literal stagnation im gonna have a piss attack aaauauhgh
you realize this is a total non-issue for anyone who has literally anything else going on in their lives outside of warhams, right?
I mean, the excessive preparation required for the highest levels of play in chess due to having deep solved lines is perceived as a problem by some of the top players. Stagnation can mean a game becomes stale if there are known optimal strategies. That's of course only a problem at the most competitive level, so you and your fellow grogs are probably good.
Chess doesn't have scenarios, variable terrain, or randomness.
Companies release new editions just to make money
I’ve been buying old vintage figures, but metal is harder and harder to find… BBC are the pewter recasts good?
Because D&D is a roleplaying game, meaning you play it with a dedicated group that decides upon the group's creation what edition they'll be playing. Games of Warhammer though are based around two main formats: the tournament and the pick-up game. Tournaments are going to use the most recent ruleset because that's what everyone expects. I have no doubt that somewhere out there someone's run a 3rd edition tournament for 40K in 2023, but it would be rare. Pick-up games run the latest ruleset because that's what you expect walking into the store. Newer players will obviously use the latest ruleset and by being the default it becomes the most popular option.
Magic is a bit different in that it does have dedicated fanbases for older content, but they still rely on the same basic ruleset. You can play Vintage and Standard using the same set of rules; it's just that certain keywords aren't used. So someone who'd only played Standard could sit down and play Vintage, or Pauper, or Commander, without any real issues, aside from maybe not recognizing certain cards or keywords immediately. The same cannot be said for 10th edition 40k vs 4th edition 40k; the two rule sets are completely different.
I think another problem is models for units and loadouts. Some armies do not have parity across editions in terms of roster. Space Marines are really bad about this now for example. Do you want/need an old school box dread? Frick yourself, go pay scalper prices or wait for it to come back up for made to order. This could all be fixed with some 3d printing or hobby magic, but players have become really lazy and would rather GW just spoon feed them everything so they don't have to be inconvenienced.
>Why aren't there more guys out there that stick to a certain edition and blow off everything that comes after?
Believe it or not, we are legion. Why do you think Epic, Necromunda, 6th edition fantasy and Battle Fleet Gothic survived for so long? If this isn't immediately obvious to you, most people who play these games do so with their friends at home, and always have. Always. The quality of the people you play with is by far the most important thing in wargaming.
Because 40k players are unironically moronic and would rather consoom the latest GW product than play an edition that isn't a complete mess.
I'm currently playing the imperial armour campaigns with 4th edition and it's 40k at it's best.
5th to 10th edition was a mistake.
how different were genestealers and tyranids in the first versions of the game?
genestealers were their own thing, had side option for being chaos GSC cult, had some options for beastmen.
Nids, a bit less options, but overall not all that different in terms of fluff, but again no genestealers early on.
>genestealers were their own thing
so what was their goal? did they intend to take over a planet or where they more like monsters?
They just reproduced like normal people, with chest bursters, but they tend to take on qualities of host species, so some tried to take over worlds to spread their species, while others took sorta liking so they protected their "host population"
there is no wikia per edition is there? Like WH40k 1st edition wiki just complete with everything as if the others did not exist and then the same for all the other versions.
For those ultra lazy, there is even now battlescribe entry for 2nd and 3rd ed...
If you dont wanna do it old fashion with a pen and paper
I've got the 3rd edition repositry on my desktop BS, man, it has so much stuff, all kinds of Chapter Approved and Citadel Journal content, alternate and variant army lists, even some homebrew stuff from back in the day. Good shit.
does anyone know what the Vedae mean?
>Etymology. Inherited from Proto-Slavic *věďa, from *věděti (“to know”), i.e., veda is a literal translation of the Latin scientia (“knowledge”).
>the Proto-Slavic věďa is related to the Sanskrit Vedas
>Also found in Northern Germanic languages
>"vide" in Danish
>"veta" in Swedish
> "vite" in Norwegian
>"vita" in Icelandic
So does the ribbon banner say Death Knowledge or Know Death or something or did the artist make a mistake with the Vedae term?
>old men who dislike new thing
>young men who wish they were old
>middle aged men who remember thing but weren't old enough to play when it was new, now able to play
When you think about it, limited re-releases of old rulesets with some throwaway "collector's edition" books would probably be a good sidegig for GW. Like when they re-released Slambo's model a few years ago.
They already sort of do that with rogue trader and some of the whfb 3e books, but they're exclusive to their HQ in Nottingham.
>have to literally take a trip to Old England to get specialty books
>in the age of the internet
Sometimes you really see the fact GW was founded by boomer nerds in the 1980s and they're still running the show.
I'd have to say Br*t*sh management types are probably some of the worst running around. They're already making their reprints boutique, why restrict it to their attached giftshop? You could milk people with those as a specialty order and they'll sing your high praises and force their kids to name their firstborns after you.
Why sell more stuff to overseas people, when you can just jack the prices up of the existing stuff?
Why indeed.
People do play older editions of 40k and WFB. Most 40k gamers are plebeian subhumans who can't into kino, though, and exist to consooooom so you never hear about it.
>and exist to consooooom so you never hear about it.
This describes the majority of the AoS fanbase too.
I find that ironic, since people whom actually play old WHF around where I play are also people whom actually tried AoS, while old grogs play...8th ed, the shit ed of WHF
No I don't find that ironic at all, but since you're pretending that 15yo zoomers are buying tons of metal models from the 1980s while playing AoS too and calling 25yos who play fantasy 'old grogs' I'm guessing you're just lying to save face for your shitty game with ugly overdesigned models and zero real lore.
No dude, I am talking about men in their 40s and 50s, playing 8th and people in their 20s and younger buying metals from 1990s and playing 5th ed.
And ya dude, that is what happens, I find that most owners of metal models nowdays in many areas are on the young side, at least ones whom use them in games...
Do any of you fine gentlemen have some old school rules for the death korps of krieg?
The stuff is out of print and not sold anymore so GW shouldn't mind us sharing it, right?
I'm looking to run my Firstborn guard army for 3rd, but is the older 3rd codex the one that's used or the latter? Just curious if it's a similar case to 6E fantasy dwarves where it's frowned upon to use the rules that came out later because of balance reasons.
people do
here's a game of 3rd ed i played last month, tsons vs space wolves
This is essentially Nordic Weasel Games' entire thing.
Two that come to mind are Renegade Scout, an RT retroclone. It tries to streamline the original rules but keep them recognizably Rogue Trader
The other is Rogue Hammer which iunlike Renegade Scout tries to recreate the feel & outcomes but with a simpler abstract ruleset. I think it is more of a 2nd edition retroclone.
1st edition is still the best edition for me because im a simulationist. but my friends are all gamists so it's dead
Reason people still play old editions is they’re nostalgic for a point in their life when they weren’t a exponentially decaying waste of space and ever was impressed with their poorly painted ugly old firstborn marines
>Reason people still play old editions is
because they are more fun and the nostalgia is that of having played a game that was fun in contrast to many modern revisions and versions of games that ended up being utter trash.
newer does not mean better, older does not mean better.
Better is what is chosen. And in warhammer, and some other games including computer games, it happens to be older.
And as is true with both warhammer and video games, sometimes you can have "both" in a way, as others pointed out, there are wargames that are "new" but are made in spirit of oldhammer, and thus quite fun and there are games that are new, but made with similar style or ideas as old games.
But ya, I got into warhammer comparitevly recently, but wouldn't go back to playing system I started with, as it was..not great.
One anon in the 40k thread wrote that Rogue Trader lore had reporters from the future 50k. Is this a joke or is it true?
since genestealers are strong enough to kill astartes terminators if they can get close enough and land a good blow than what chance does a squad of imperial guardsmen even remotely have?!
Given that Terminator armor evidently does nothing, why *not* just use a heavy-weapons squad of Guard to fight them?
they're good at surprise attacks, not bulletproof
the guard probably has the advantage of numbers, more expendable than a marine, too
because GW hosts the table space for games