One man attempted to save RPGs, the one other one condemed them.
Who do you stand with?
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 Shopping Cart Returner Shirt $21.68 |
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One man attempted to save RPGs, the one other one condemed them. Who do you stand with?
One man attempted to save RPGs, the one other one condemed them.
Who do you stand with?
|
Shopping Cart Returner Shirt $21.68 |
|
I would rather have a thousand Swen's try to pump life into RPGs than a single YoshiP throwing it all away for actionslop.
I stand with YoshiP because XVI is a solid game, despite what the fricking Forspoken fanboy that spams his shit tastes everywhere thinks
Anon, it has worse game design than B-tier eurojank. There's basically no game behind the cutscenes at all.
>no dungeons
>no cities, only a couple of copy-paste villages with one innkeeper and one shop each
>no treasures or optional locations
>all enemies come in the same groups and can be dispatched with exactly the same moves
>no party dialogue, nobody seems to have any life beyond delivering exposition to Clive and/or worshipping Clive
>no map design, just run in the straight line bro
>loot does literally nothing
>no weapon variation and no weapon effects
>all the accessories except for 1 (one) ring have no effects aside from making your stat numbers bigger
>story is 60% padding where you do nothing except slowly walk between npcs and deliver sand, apples, wooden planks, etc. like the world's most overrated Fedex courier
Meanwhile, BG3 has actual content.
>>all enemies come in the same groups and can be dispatched with exactly the same moves
This was what broken me on XVI. I just couldn't help but burn out when it's the exact same combo of moronic AI enemies that won't dent me that will have to die the exact same way the 20 groups before them died.
>all the accessories except for 1 (one) ring have no effects aside from making your stat numbers bigger
I remember stats...
What makes it worse is that the combat's not even well-tuned. They simplified it to an extreme degree and STILL couldn't make the encounters interesting.
Meanwhile, Kiseki has an incredibly complex system with many encounters that have you constantly on the edge of death.
>Kiseki
Huh, I've heard about that. I should try to get into that series. I absolutely have autism enough for 1000+ hour storytelling and I've heard there's 982 games in the series.
Where do I begin?
Trails in the Sky FC
Alright. Got it on GOG (it was pretty cheap too, only 16 Ameribucks). Let's see how it goes.
Talk to every NPC after every story beat and see how each one of them is unique and has a story to tell
I'll try. I've heard this game is slow as frick so I'm going to do likewise and really take my time with it.
I've only played Sky FC and it's the same difficulty as a mainline FF game. Which is to say, not very difficult. It's not making you constantly shit your pants and fear for your life like mainline SMT does.
Nightmare is very different. Most people would not clear the optional fights in Ao for example on Nightmare (without a guide at least.)
I played FC on Hard and it felt pretty hard to me. A few of those latter encounters really kicked my ass.
It was worse in SC though. On Hard that game raped me.
Can't imagine that shit on Nightmare.
You eventually learn the system but SC was pretty tough on Nightmare.
Azure is the hardest however, largely because of the fights that have turn limits.
I don't know, the fight with Kurt in SC broke a few people on Hard. How that shit is doable on Nightmare is beyond me.
Stats don't blend well witch real action games that's why. Are you mad at DMC or Bayonetta or NG for not having stats? No one wants to upgrade Rebellion's or Dragon Sword's damage by 5% when developers can instead just not bloat enemy HPs just to give fake sense of progression. J-Action games' appeal is that player skill is far more important than some numbers on the screen. XVI dropped the ball with difficulty though. It desperately needs a hard mode.
The entirety of modern team ninja titles would beg to disagree with you
You do realize upgrading weapons in Ninja gaiden does increase their damage/delimb rate and such right? Even beyond movesets. The numbers just aren't being shown to you.
>The entirety of modern team ninja titles would beg to disagree with you
Games like SoP(not Nioh, Nioh is snoozefest shit because of Ki Pulse imo) are good despite RPG mechanics, not because of them. Many of the Nioh or SoP fans despise loot shit or grind shit yet still play it despite that, not because of that.
>Many of the Nioh or SoP fans despise loot shit or grind shit yet still play it despite that, not because of that.
It's the same shit for SRPG really. A lot of the playerbase likes tactic games but they're such a niche genre they will play SRPG even though they despise rpg mechanics and think it basically destract from the strategic aspects of the games (which they're not completely wrong about). RPG mechanics (I mean stats not actual roleplay) are popular in computer games BECAUSE they lower skill ceiling and let you grind and bruteforce to win. Basically it turns time investment into power, unlike for most things and irl skills that require to put in effort AND time to learn. It's not necessarily a bad thing depending on the goal of the game but it does detract from gameplay when it's added to a genre that usually requires effort to master.
Every fricking game uses numbers moron, what kind of logic is this?
>No party dialogue besides worshipping Clive
Alright that's just false. All of them are commenting on the world around them and NPCs involved in the story/current quest. It's usually just Clive monologing, but there is no such "Clive worshipping" in the banter.
?
There’s practically no banter in the game. You rarely have more than one person in the party and they don’t talk except for the scripted moments during the main missions. Aside from that the game essentially pretends Clive is completing all the side quests alone. It leads to surreal moments where you can forget Jill is even there until you see some random ice effects in combat. You have a party and you don’t even know it because your companions contribute absolutely nothing.
>baldtroon gayte
You almost had me. Go back to your homosexual troony simulator.
This sounds exactly like the kind of game the director of FINAL FANTASY XIV A REALM REBORN would make. Absolutely generic brain-dead simple shit that requieres no thought whatsoever. But at least it's neat to look at, right?
>Anon, it has worse game design than B-tier eurojank. There's basically no game behind the cutscenes at all.
Pretty much agree with all this. It's bad when you realise FF13 was a much better FF game than 16, given the criticism towards 13 at the time. At least it has stats, builds, job system and a decent cast of characters
This is one of the very few cases that I am not standing with the Jap. BG3 was fun, FF16 was not.
Go back to the MMO, Yoshi. It's where you belong.
JRPGs aren’t RPGs
CRPGs will never come close to actual TTRPG, so I choose the cuhrayzee pill. Make action games great.
>TTRPG
Tactical Turn-based RolePlaying Games?
yeah like Disagea, Triangle Strategy, Tactics Ogre
Oh, I thought people usually just called that "SRPG". But if not then that's cool.
I like those games too. Triangle Strategy was a huge sleeper-hit for me. Did not expect that to be as good as it was.
tabletop role playing games
>need irl friends to play TTRPG
yea no thanks i think i'll stick with my CRPGs and WoW Roleplay Guilds with intricate rolling systems and character sheets
rpgs dying would be great
both, now frick off
Both are false messiahs
I'm just glad SaGa games FINALLY got some attention in the west. Such a shame systems-focused JRPG series was under the radar for so long and Kawazu is obviously passionate as frick about them.
>SaGa
Hope you enjoyed what you got because they're never touching it again.
I never expected them to. Sadly JRPGs as a whole are a very storygay affair.
>less mid sized, more large AAA console games
Is there a single person left at Square Enix with a brain? Like, a janitor, or a programmer or literally anyone who can tell the execs what a moronic idea this is? Anyone at all?
Squeenix is a big AAA dawg. To them going all the way in with budget for maximum returns makes perfect sense. Except they're developing JRPGs rather than FPS.
>Make AA games.
>They don't sell.
>"WHHA YOU JUST DIDN"T MARKET THEM RIGHT"
As if a super bowl commercial of anime characters doing thing random Japanese things is gonna help it sell better.
I don't know if I'd call any of those double-A. Single-A maybe, based on how short the credit scene is.
It's honestly kinda funny how they keep fricking up
>release a bunch of gachas and they all die or barely make any money
>say they want to get into NFTS WAY too late which only served to tank their reputation
>say that turn based games aren't popular anymore and then XVI proceeds to get mogged by BG3
>say they want to get into NFTS WAY too late which only served to tank their reputation
This will never not be funny to me. Way to just set money on fire.
Did you buy Various Daylife?
Did anyone?
SaGa has been funding itself through the boatloads of Gacha money they're making with their own games, they're not touching them since they're not dead weight that burns money like Final Fantasy.
>no more BD
>no more TS
>no more Diofield (whatever the frick that was)
I hate SE so much it's unreal.
>no more BD
>no more TS
Believe in Team Asano anon, after Octopath 2 success no way they're not giving them so resources for a new game.
But they did? Frankly copy sold per dollar invested those games probably did much better than FFXV and XVI. Those games sell between 1m and 2m but cost probably 1/20 of what a main ff costs.
>SE will focus more on console games
It's over
>Such a shame systems-focused JRPG series was under the radar for so long
Because they're WAY too system focused to the point that you need a fricking guide to understand what you're doing half the times.
Having a ton of choices without even knowing what you're choosing isn't that different that having no choice at all. And on top of that the west absolutely hate obtuse/obscure systems and even the Souls game slowly toned it down compared to the first games.
They don't need guides, they're games that are designed specifically to be played blind, as there's no such thing as trap options like in the D&D games where you have to constantly worry about which feat is good and which isn't, even Unlimited with all its issues and more ruthless character building can be played however you want as long as you make your characters stick to a single thing, it's also why unlike modern CRPGs there's no such thing as respecs in SaGa.
Westerners are just trained by years of bad tabletop design, mostly 3e D&D, which is actually deliberately designed to frick you over just for the sake of it, SaGa's not like that, it takes some stuff out of D&D (and stops at 2e AD&D) but overall it's actually a mixture of many classic TT games, with Kawazu's own ideas and tweaks on top of it all, it's a genuinely very intuitive set of rules that also manages to avoid a lot of the usual puddles, mostly because as Kawazu said since ages ago it's pointless to obsessively reconstruct D&D, or any TT game in videogame form.
>which is actually deliberately designed to frick you over just for the sake of it
This is not why "useless" things exist and you have no idea what you're talking about. Read up on the thought process behind WotC's designs back in the day and it makes perfect sense. TLDR version: Bad spells/abilities/whatever exists to gently guide the player towards certain mechanics and to allow the free flow of unexpected things happening.
>Bad spells/abilities/whatever exists to gently guide the player towards certain mechanics
AKA trap options, Monte Cook himself said so.
>Magic also has a concept of "Timmy cards." These are cards that look cool, but aren't actually that great in the game.
>The purpose of such cards is to reward people for really mastering the game, and making players feel smart when they've figured out that one card is better than the other.
Cook himself said it was a mistake and moved on from that school of design, you can try to spin it as a way to reward "better" players who take their time to play and experiment with things, but the fact is the games have trap options, doubly so in videogames where inbetween tweaks and bugs things get even worse.
A good game has no bad spells or abilities, let alone bad spells or abilities that are explicitly designed to make you avoid them and choose the good ones once you find out they're trash.
The funny thing is that Timmy cards exist completely unchanged, they *said* they moved on but putting bad options into something is such a natural part of designing a game that it's impossible to avoid even if you want to.
>A good game has no bad spells or abilities
So all Larian games are not good games then?
I can't speak for BG3 since I have not played it, but their previous ones?
Sure, I still have no idea how they managed to make D:OS2 worse than the first one, but their problem isn't really trash skills if you ask me, their problem is trying to force shitty gimmicks and making everything else in the game revolve around that.
It's very obvious in D:OS2 where most of the skills in the game are the same thing with a different animation, there's something like FIVE different teleport skills for the PCs alone, nevermind all the rebaked teleports for NPCs, or your summons.
Worse still, the general balance is so fricking atrocious and so inherently and deliberately focused on cheese it makes the game bad to play both at a casual level and at max difficulty, the former because it's just braindead button mashing and the latter because you're absolutely forced to cheese the moment you refuse to follow the intended progression paths of combat "strategies", both are dreadful, joyless experiences.
The first game did have similar issues but it wasn't riddled with shitty gimmicks like that atrocious armor system that are clearly there as bandaids because Swen is an incompetent idiot who still can't design a game to save his life, no wonder the company was close to bankruptcy after years of unplayable shovelware.
>sven
>panders to coomers
>wins
>chingpongpinglong
>panders to game of thrones fanbase, a dead francise
>loses sanity, respect, money, sleep and his dignity
left: The man who liked and kissed Waifuheart's feet. A man who walks with his armor and sword through his castle and who demands sword duels daily with his employees. A man you sees more in a bear than just a gimmick. A man who literally said that he exclusively pirated all the games when he was young and that for him a game shouldn't have a cash shop or microtransactions. A man who is literally called the only reason to work for by his own employees.
right. A man who was forced by shareholders to maximize profits.
>A man who walks with his armor and sword through his castle and who demands sword duels daily with his employees.
So hyperbased then?
>A man who was forced by shareholders to maximize profits.
But that's not true. YoshiP could have done anything he wanted to XVI, but he chose to copy GOT and DMC (and somehow fail at both of them).
What's wild is that he's usually pretty good at the "copy something but make it a little better"-thing.
>What's wild is that he's usually pretty good at the "copy something but make it a little better"-thing.
No he isn't, when has he ever done that before?
Copy something and streamline what made it good out if it, you mean
Luv Swen because he's a fricking psycho. Simple as.
I liked both games but Swen is on a completely different level. Swen innovates, Yoship imitates.
Basically this. Yoshi P hasn't really had a single original good idea for either his MMO or XVI, but he's a decent imitator nonetheless. I largely prefer raiding in XIV than WoW atm, even with how scuffed it currently is with 2 min meta.
>I liked both games but Swen is on a completely different level. Swen innovates, Yoship imitates.
Because Swen is an actual designer and Yoshida is a producer. He's a management guy that loves videogames, he's good at his job which is funding games and managing people but he's not really a creative mind.
I don't like Sven. He comes across as a hyper-autist that could show up at your door at 3 AM to talk about the finer points of armor crafting.
But he did somehow manage to make a pretty good game, which is more than what can be said for YoshiP. I guess I'd take Sven's autism this time.
Ff16 will never come to Xbox or pc. Keep coping.
Unironically Yoshida.
>Movie games
>Open slop design
>Walking sims
>Shallow gameplay mechanics supplemented with gear system
>Shallow story and characterization supplemented with choices that don't actually effect anything
>Skinnerboxes and MTX
>Purple/green etc. equipment
Trying to turn tabletop RPGs into video games was a mistake. I can't think of a single positive thing RPGs gave to gaming besides immersive sims(which is a dead subgenre nowadays).
I really dont know if this is a bot reply or FFXVI gays have really lost their marbles
You can't refute any of my claims.
the skinnerbox/MTX one refutes itself.
Unironically OG FF and DQ were born from trying to port tabletop DnD to consoles, Square lost it's path along the way like many others, like Blizzard too.
Unironically they weren't. West adapted tabletop into gaming in two main ways - dungeon crawlers which were all combat no story and text adventure games which were all story no combat. FF and DQ were born out of trying to port dungeon crawlers to console. By visual novel developers no less, so the story they added back in was a linear snooze fest with zero player choice or agency. Thus J"RPG" (contains no roleplaying) was born
Pic very much related
Your choices don't matter in an MMO. You only ever pick the best shit and run with it, otherwise you get kicked, reported, and blacklisted. The """player choice""" in wow is an illusion.
zoomer take
I cannot believe that people unironically enjoy dnd in the current day. We have computers that can simulate pretty much any fantasy you want, all that dice rolling and shit is an artifact of a time where you couldn't do that and had to make do with your imagination.
>I cannot believe that people unironically enjoy dnd in the current day.
It’s all about the social interactions, I guess autists will never understand
This is such a cringe forced comparison they don't make the same types of games, not even in the RPG sphere.
You're moronic and obsessed with Yoshida.
>Which corporation is your best friend
Gettagrip
Reatl time > turn based trash
i love the morons with this opinion.
tell me, smart guy, how exactly would a DnD game like BG3 work WITHOUT turn based combat?
should it be in realtime, but everytime you press a button to swing or attack you have a chance to miss even though you are standing right in front of someone, forcing you to mash the same button over and over until you finally hit? yeah, wow, sounds like so much fun.
if you bought BG3 but didn't know about the combat you're a dumb monkey and shouldn't be pitied, only laughed at
so....hahahahahaha
>DnD
Nerd shit, yawn.
turn based is trash specifically because of shit like attack rolls
I love both games, the RPG from the east is a genuine spectacle to experience that elevates every fight with top tier production value and music. The RPG from the west is an insanely innovative title that puts the limit of creativity in the players hands, a true be anyone you want and do anything you want handcrafted world.
And we got them within a month of each other. God I love videogames. What a time to be alive.
I honestly feel Squares been washed up since the end of ps1. I feel kind of bad for them, but they barely make anything worth playing. Who is their audience anyway
He didn't have to make anything new, could've just made The Witcher 3 with good combat
>could've just made The Witcher 3 with good combat
>japanese rpg: cringe story, linear, very good combat
>western rpg: decent story, non-lnear, dogshit combat
Why? Why are western devs so fricking bad at designing anything beyond turn based or rtwp slop? And when they do it's cinematic shit or shooters. It's like western rpgs HAVE to contain dosgshit combat.
Because they focus on other areas of the game, and let's not act as if jrpgs have good combat either. Honestly, I just think that TPS action games are where western games struggle a lot and RPGs and FPS is where japanese games struggle a lot.
Xvi is dogshit combat too. Bg3 combat is actually good. Stop fellating the jap micropenis
rpg: cringe story, linear, very good combat
>very
>good
>combat
JRPGs have never been real RPGs to begin with. Yoshida did nothing wrong.
>JRPGs have never been real RPGs to begin with. Yoshida did nothing wrong.
Except he literally got butthurt and cried racism because the west considers jrpgs "not real rpgs". But you're right, they're never been real rpgs to begin with and Yoshida is a moron.
>cried racism because the west considers jrpgs "not real rpgs".
Nah, ultimately it was more about jrpgs getting shit on because they were Japanese games more than anything else. Not because of not being true RPGs. But still, it wasn't a hill worth dying on.
He's not wrong because Japanese-made RPGs are modeled after a mix of Ultima and Wizardry how is that "Japanese" RPG
Like no one called Gothic GRPG(German RPG)
Because those series moved on and evolved after tech got better. Meanwhile japs still kept making games using that shallow system because they primarily made games for consoles
All Gothic games play the same
That was referring to
>Japanese-made RPGs are modeled after a mix of Ultima and Wizardry how is that "Japanese" RPG
Gothic isn't considered a GRPG because there wasn't a ton of games that came out that basically copied it's gameplay nearly 1:1, all coming from the same country.
It's 2023. Why would I play games?
I'll stand with true rpg messiah
Neither. RPGs should've died out a long time.
Both ff16 and bg3 are good games and i am so sick of this endless shitflinging
Same.
It’s because 16 is a PS5 exclusive
That’s literally it. If it launched on PC along with PS5 this board would be sucking Yosh P’s wiener
It's because the replaced fanbase hates it, same with botw/totk.
BOTW brought in millions of new fans, at least. XVI chased away everyone except the YoshiP cultists.
Final Fantasy isn't an RPG. Baldur's Gate 3 is an actual RPG.
Both men hate RPGs and attacked them to inflate their own egos
This is like 10th thread about FF16 and baldurs gate 3 when theyre completely different games catering to different audiences.
I know, right? Imagine a time when Final Fantasy used to cater to RPG fans.
It's one schizo trying to pit 16 against every single new release, he did the same with Pikmin and he will do the same with AC6 and Starfield.
FF is (or, used to be) a cultural icon that would destroy any pathetic game that dared release the same month as it. It was so extreme that a lot of the PS1 library revolved release dates around how long it was until the next FF game came out.
It was normal to compare FF to everything because FF was just THAT big of a deal. It was expected to crush all competition.
The fact that it's being rinsed by a game made by fricking literally who Belgians is nothing short of insanity. If you'd said this 30+ years ago I don't think a soul alive would believe you.
Imagine if you told someone that a shitty pixel game made by one guy would be more relevant than any FF game after FFX.
Baldur's Gate was a gigantic success and an extremely well known game at the time, you have no idea what you're talking about.
Mate, Baldur's Gate was THE biggest RPG name in the west until Skyrim basically reshuffled the entire deck and changed the game altogether by introducing mainstream to the genre. You couldn't ask for a better pedigree than Baldur's Gate.
>The fact that it's being rinsed by a game made by fricking literally who Belgians
Why do people keep peddling this lie that Larian is some literally who indie darling. They are a fricking 400 people developer, OS2 was a massive success and played buy a ton of normies and streamers because of the co-op, they're not the small company they used to be and havn't been for years.
>They are a fricking 400 people
Yeah and Square Enix are 4000 (closer to 5000) employees with 40+ years experience making Final Fantasy with about 1000 times the budget of anything Larian could even dream of.
This. That SE need to be "defended" on the internet against a company that's less than 10 times their size is nothing short of embarrassing.
"FF" 16 is the gift that keeps giving. RPG fans will enjoy mocking it for at least 3 more years.
Barry and his copycats are just opportunistic, but there's also been a really weird thing happening with a handful of BG3 fanboys. Since a few months ago they started flamewars with literally anyone they perceive to be a "rival" of some sort, they even went into BG1 threads over at /vrpg/ and tried to stir shit there.
>didn't make an RPG
>condemned RPGs
?
Yoshida would literally crumble if he had to undertake any project even a tenth as similar as BG3
He's good at makind the similar thing again and again constantly in a decently timely manner but that is completely incompatible with freedom and innovation
I have literally no idea who these people are or what the topic of the thread is about, I just wanted to say based on my first glance of the thumbnail, the guy on the left: HEYYY YOU GUYYYS!
I will remind you dumb homosexuals that FFXVI sold 3m opening week and BG3 sold 2.5m.
XVI still won no matter how much you cope.
>2.5m
No, that was just pre-release. We have no idea what the number is now.
You can kinda see the madness in Swen's eyes. This is the exact look he had when he proposed bear-sex.
I don't know, he seems entertaining enough to me.
Do Euros really vacation in Euro? What's the point?
I don't understand the question. Why wouldn't they?
Europe consists of multiple countries.
Americants are to dumb too understand that european countries are not like americant states
Most Americans have never left the USA, let alone for a vacation, so it's not like you're any different. And Europe has very different cultures all relatively close to each other and with lots of transport links too.
I don't want any Euros trying to imitate burgers involved in my games anymore, gimme the Jap.
I'll go with YoshiP just because I don't like CRPGs.
I would put forth a warning for anyone looking to suck Larian's dick for free. It has happened before and money does corrupt.
That's a good point Anon.
bg3 was larians cyberpunk, they already passed the cdpr test
No, it's not. It's their Witcher 3.
d:os2 was their w3
Nah the next game would be their cyberpunk, this one is their Witcher 3, not that many people played DOS1/2, they’re comparable to Witcher 1/2
There's nothing to corrupt since they never made a good game and are only getting worse since D:OS1.
I don't think Larian is in the same danger since they're dabbling in somewhat less mainstream games, if not genres, than CDPR where temptation to dumb down is way more intense. You'll get your average players far more into action adventure or FPS than into a turn-based CRPG: If Larian has proven anything it's that there IS a strong core audience for the latter you don't need to dumb down your games to cater to.
Larian CRPGs are piss easy and mechanically very simple though. That has been the case since OS1. They're not bad games but they appeal to the mainstream audience a lot more than towards actual CRPG fans.
>They're not bad games but they appeal to the mainstream audience a lot more than towards actual CRPG fans.
I still think there's a far bigger divide here than many realize. For example; Disco Elysium, Age of Decadence and Baldur's Gate 3 are technically the same kind of game, but I'd wager they appeal to different type of player.
FFXVI is anti socialism so it's automatically better
It is also anti video games, so there's that.
Frick off
What i find funny is how yoship bombed the game and then as a suit took the decision of cutting investment of smaller projects
The guy went full ghoul
Was it his decision? If so, reeks of:
>the other projects brought us down, but not mine!
He's in the board of suits of SE. He's directly responsible for these decisions.
I don't know about you, but i do know that Baldur's Gate 3 is the video game experience of a lifetime. Real gamers need to stop wasting their time on games masquerading as RPGs, like Zelda and Final Fantasy and spend your hard earned money on a game like Baldur's Gate 3, a title that ups your gamer cred.
Remember to purchase Baldur's Gate 3 or you can't call yourself a hardcore gamer. Baldur's Gate 3 isn't just a game, it's a lifestyle.
both are slop
Cope. 3m is more than BGs 2m.
>Soiken instead of Revo for an actual attempt at reviving Final Fantasy franchise
Doomed from the start. Never had a chance.