>ostentatiously fashionable
>lights you on fire
>heals your shit
>burns you again
>cuts you in two
How can other classes even compete?
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>ostentatiously fashionable. >lights you on fire. >heals your shit. >burns you again. >cuts you in two
why is johnny atma red????
I'm glad I'm not the only one who immediately thought this.
WHERE ARE THE CHEETOS!?
CAN I HAVE A MOUNTAIN DEW?
ARE THERE ANY GIRLS THERE?
IF THERE ARE ANY GIRLS THERE I WANT TO DO THEM!
You're a mediocre ass mage Jojo, it's time to take your ass to the back row.
ONCE UPON A TIME IN THE LAND OF MELMOND THE SPLENDOR OF VEGETATION DECAYED (c'mon!)
IT WAS PROPHECIZED THAT FOUR STUNNING LIGHT WARRIORS WOULD COME AND SAVE THE DAY
ARRIVIN' IN CORNERIA
IN THE MIDST OF THEIR DELERIA
FOUR MOTHERFRICKAS EMERGED
To teach a valued lesson, better count your blessin's at the beating that's about to occur
Here we go.
He's a jobber who can't heal for shit and can't deal damage for shit. Waste of a slot.
All of the characters in 8 bit, are capeshit level jobbers
zoomers will not get this reference
You know. It's kinda nice that sprite comics died in late 2000's. I wouldn't stand seeing zoomers taint their image
late 2000s is well within "zoomer" generational awareness
generation wars are dumb as frick and perpetuated by people near-exclusively within gen z all trying to say they're the biggest boomer of all
>late 2000s is well within "zoomer" generational awareness
He's saying he wouldn't want zoomers to MAKE them, not that he doesn't want zoomers to know about them. He's glad they fell out of style so zoomers never made them and ruined them.
No i mean. They all fricking got erased the moment the internet fully picked up steam, is kinda of funny seeing the amount of the sprite comic being produced, only to suddenly stop. When was the last time you saw a Zoomie referenced a sprite comic?
Yeah basically that
Webcomics in general died as soon as youtube took over
he's the best character for solo runs
Peak Job. Literally. and Figuratively.
>White and Black mages are fricking useless 90% of the time
>Red mages are useless for the entire second half of any game they appear in
>Thief is always a worthless piece of shit
god the balance in the NES games sucks dick
To be fair, the mages and thief suck because the programming is broken. Mages are supposed to scale their damage on INT but they just don't so all spells have fixed damage when they're not supposed to, and thief is supposed to have high crit chance but those stats are broken and all the high-crit weapons he gets are also broken.
>Final Fantasy somehow sold gangbusters and was extremely popular at release despite being fundamentally broken in countless ways that made the game extremely difficult
The beauty of it is that unlike the other arcade-like games on NES, if the game is too hard and filters you then you can just keep playing and gaining levels and buying better equipment until you can get past where you're stuck. That combined with most of the bugs being obfuscated behind complex stats and hidden calculations meant that no one realized the game was actually broken. Hell, we all used TMPR and SABR and just ASSUMED they worked and were doing what they were meant to do even though they literally have no effect in-game due to a bug, but how could we know?
80s video games had a very weird, otherworldly mentality. Literally they just full-on expected you to explore the game...because it was just there. Check out this game in my pic here, Might & Magic Book 1: Secret of the Inner Sanctum. Other than the title, there is ABSOLUTELY no mention whatsoever of what the frick your goal is in this game. Nobody gives you a quest for it, nobody even hints at its direction. The game had a full-on manual and even a clue book that was basically a strategy guide, and even those books don't ever REALLY mention that there's an end to the game. They really did just think you'd want to play it for the sake of playing it.
All of that sophistry is just to point out this: Kids just liked playing it cause it was a game and you had wizards, spells, and warriors. That was all it took back then.
To be fair, there wasn't as much available back then, so kids played the shit out of whatever they could.
To be fair, a lot of that is because a lot of those early RPGs were heavily influenced by Dungeons & Dragons, and early D&D was very much a sort of "you're going to explore shit and kill shit" not for any heroic or story reason, but just because it was there and you wanted to get treasure.
>To be fair
No need to be fair. I kind of like that, to a certain extent. It's just a fascinating world view that they had back then. "There's a fantasy world. Are you man enough to explore it?"
Is this corrected in the pixel remake?
i'm only just past western keep and that at least seems to be fixed
spells definitely don't have fixed damage but I can't really tell if thief has a higher crit chance or not, he's gotten a good few at least
Really want to play it now, always turned me off after initial playthrough. Thanks.
All fixed, but thief is still shit.
When I was a kid I thought he was holding a weird staff because I didn’t realize it was a cape
what would you do to make the thief a good class without changing its identity? my idea would be to give it a super high crit rate, like 90% or something, so it crits on almost every attack.
high speed + high crit
You take the chance on critical hits for the benefit of him usually attacking first to kill off dangerous enemies before they can get off an attack, plus better escape chance when you need to run.
>give it free flees so there's no issues getting out of battles
>high evade
>high crit
Starts the game fragile but able to survive thanks to evasion. By the end of the game would be able to hit several times.
generates more money early game
auto flee ability
give it the Archer's Hide ability so it can sorta dodgetank unfleeable fights like Bosses
Fix the NES version bugs.
>fighter - meat shield
>blackbelt - physical damage
>black mage - magic damage
>white mage - healing/buffs
>red mage - jack of all trades
Debuffs, I guess? Blind, trip, disarm, poison
In V Thief lets you see hidden passages and also the run button is hidden behind it what the frick, so making it an "out of battle" class adds a cool utility benefit. Thieves generally don't want to fight, anyways.
>play GBA version
>free run button means that, if you know about the hidden passages beforehand, Thief isn't that great
Well you just get double run in the GBA version
Secret passages out of battle isn't nearly as good as having Steal + Thief's Gloves. Boomerangs on Thief was also really cool. I'd make them more of a backrow damage dealer for the early game before Archer becomes available.
In XI it's good for farming and hate control. Thief was added to D&D as a class that can circumvent fighting, since you got EXP from loot, not kills. This meant most Thief skills were for overcoming the environment. Bring RPGs to video games (or modern tabletop, honestly) and suddenly all that matters is fighting monsters, but everyone wants to keep Thief because it's so iconic, so it ends up being a damage dealer somehow.
In the original FF1...
For every Thief/Ninja in the party, GP earned at the end of a battle increases by 0.5x, as in a four Thief party would get 3x the dosh.
With every attack the Thief/Ninja makes on one enemy, each following attack gains +1 multi-attacks, so he is best off focusing on a single enemy to snowball his damage. The simplest gamey way to convey the idea that he is focusing on assassinating a single target with ever increasing precision. It can get to the point he potentially out-hits the Monk in number of strikes assuming an enemy lives that long, but he has to work up to it every time compared to the Monk who gets a flat gain.
Add some more Swords & Knives exclusive to Thief/Ninja like the Katana that have better stats and/or On Use magic like Sleep, Darkness, Slow, Fast and Bane.
There's no changing what Thief is in FF1 because there's no framework to give him anything new or different, you'd need to add all the D&D stuff that was omitted like stealth, lockpicking etc., and even there the Thief by definition wouldn't and shouldn't be the only class with access to those skills, as much as he would be the best, Kawazu merely put Thief as a class because he was trying to personally make a super streamlined AD&D videogame and didn't want to take risks so he played it safe.
Kawazu also has a notorious burning hatred for thieves, like all grogs from his generation, it's the reason why there's no thief character in FF2 (You have Leila instead, who's a pirate, an archetype Kawazu actually loves) and why even in his many other games including FF spinoffs he created or directed Kawazu rarely ever allowed thieves to exist (there's shitloads of pirates though), even among the SaGa games to this day there's only two games in the entire series that featured thieves as a class/archetype, Romancing SaGa 1 and Romancing SaGa 2, and his hatred for thieves/rogues is so comically intense that he doesn't even allow thieves to steal anything.
I mean honestly based, Thieves don't really work that well in vidya RPGs where everything is simplified into gameplay abstraction. Pirates being thieves who steal things through physical violence makes a lot more sense.
BD's Thief concept where you could steal stats and manipulate enemies was cool, but doesn't make a lot of sense on its own and is just leaning directly into gameplay abstraction.
Kawazu is very keen on working through abstraction rather than simulation, but really he just fricking despises thieves, he has a clearly Gygaxian hatred for the the class as a concept and you can see it in how he designs his games.
In RS1 Jamil is a thief, but instead of stealing shit in practical terms he's a DEX/INT oriented character, as a main character he does have access to certain unique events as a thief but nothing particularly noteworthy, in MS there's effective classes but again Thieves are a starter class that comes with specialization in Foil, Search and Strategy, with the class gimmick being an amplified radius for finding hidden treasure, one of the worst classes in the game.
City Thieves in RS2 are a starter class that focused on DEX/AGI spreads, they were meant to be a speedy class for the early game that would act as a jammer type of character, specializing in inflicting preemptive status effects and debuffs to shut down enemies rather than stealing shit, though as an emperor they'd also have access to certain perks like specific routes when it came to completing certain events...which other classes also had though.
Perhaps the biggest frick you to thieves was in Unlimited though, where Tiffon, a rogue, would come with a mandated Undead Phobia panel (means you basically do no HP damage to undead) in the two campaigns that featured extremely strong undead final bosses.
Thieves weren't really a thing in TTRPG originally, OSD&D didn't have thieves for a while until Gygax added the class somewhat begrudgingly after hearing about the idea from Schweitzer and being pestered by so many players, he also deliberately made it garbage, in theory, in practice it was actually pretty good, if not kinda busted for certain multiclassing characters.
Even so Gygax b***hed about the class for decades to come.
thief class wouldn't have stayed useless if you all would admit ff13 is the only ff game that is balanced but nooo everyone and their mothers wanted to meme hate it to death -_-
90% crit rate means you just do half damage every one in a while for no reason, which seems silly. I could take 90% crit on first attack though.
Ignoring all the out-of-combat uses, thieves could be good at distracting the enemy. But something I would add is the ability to make two actions in the same turn, with some limitations. This would work because its overall dps is pretty low, so maybe stuff like using potions on targets while also attacking, or the ability to steal an item and maybe use it in the same turn. This could lead to a better utility items system, and who better than the guy who gets the items to use them.
Higher speed and evasion are obvious ways to boost the thief up within the confines of FF1's systems. Better gil/loot drops after battle and more favorable luck for pre-emptive/back attacks too. A better pool of black magic for Ninja (and just making black magic stronger in general) could also give it more utility in the lategame. Like if the Ninja was great at hitting enemies with status ailments, and those ailments were actually useful, that could give it a strong functional identity. Ninja could even get some exclusive black magic, like a poison spell, to ensure that a black mage can't just take over that role. It would also help if the lategame content was significantly harder to make those status ailments worth it, so you'd really feel the impact of not taking a thief with you. As it is now (and with many RPGs) the early game is the hardest part, but later on you're too overpowered and most enemies crumple just to basic attacks (especially with Haste/Temper/Saber).
Another idea I had would be to have the thief/ninja have lower attack power, but to make their attacks ignore enemy defense. That'd make them less useful against trash mobs but uniquely good against powerful single targets and bosses. Basically make them an assassin on top of their other functions
Steal command
Flee command (Run but with high chance of success)
High crit chance + high chance of attacking first
Increased gold from battles
Any combination of these would be fine.
Thief:
Equip Boomerangs to deal melee damage to backrow for target. Can also equip Knives and Shortswords, and Light Armor.
!Steal low % chance at common drops, deals no damage, cannot be done from backrow
!Scram rolls every active (ATB full) character's run percentage chance for free
!Hide makes the Thief invulnerable to (most) attacks for the next turn, but pushes him to the back row.
Passively, the Thief increases the amount of Gil recieved in battles he participates in and can reveal some secret passages in dungeons and the overworld. He also lowers the odds of monsters or traps spawning in treasure chests.
Ninja:
Equips Longswords, Boomerangs, Knives, Shortswords, Polearms and up to Medium Armor
!Throw: Throws weapons or items from the Ninja's inventory to deal increased damage, even from backrow. Thrown spell scrolls turn into spellcasts
!Ninjutsu allows Ninja to cast a handful of spells such as Blink, Fireball, Temper, etc. single target on self
!Smokescreen acts as an alternative runaway with flat 50/50 odds, in case the Ninja gets debuffed or otherwise has its Speed nullified.
Passively, the Ninja increases the odds of causing a Surprise Attack if in the Front Row and decreases the odds of suffering a Back Attack if in the Back Row. The Ninja also has a guaranteed first action in all combat, even if Back Attacked.
My White Mage is so powerful he will literally heal every pore and orifice in your body closed, then heal your face to the floor and laugh as you just die
How come nobody ever rags on Black Belt? Mine was so useless after Earth Cave I made him my primary healer
"Here just use this staff every turn and don't get in the way, bro"
If you don't make your Black Belt naked around level 12 you're doing it wrong, that's around the time that his fists do more damage and get more attacks than weapons and his bonus for not wearing armor provides more defense than his armor can.
Ok, then. But he did make a fabulous healer lol
If you stick with him and stop equipping stuff like the other anon said, black belt (and then master) will eventually punch harder than God.
>if you stick with him
Anon, I'm describing my og playthrough in 1989 lol. That Black person healed my part all throughout.
>How can other classes even compete?
They can't.
Ok, there are some classes that can compete depending on the game due to being very niche, like Astrologer, or Blue Mage depending on the monsters skills, but in general the only classes that manage to appear consistently with cool factor to compete are Summoner and Dragoon
By having 4 of them.
Four white mages? It'll never work.
The game has been beaten by a solo WM before.
Sad state of affairs on this board...
shoot me I can't remember every page
Mother fricker you could at least remember how it ended.
I got you, bro.
GOD DAMNIT IT!
That is nothing
it is a reference, he is sad that he did not receive the dopamine hit from someone getting the reference. please give it to him.
you can easily beat the game with them
probably less so than the tower of power but it's far from impossible
Do I finally go back and play NES FF1 start to finish with the 8 bit theater party?
Honestly NES FF1 just isn't very good due to all the bugs. You're better off playing the PS1 or PSP ports. If you absolutely need to play the NES version for aesthetics at least grab the bugfix romhacks.
I'm replaying the game in the PR and even though I've played 1 before I can't help but have the song play through my head whenever they have shit from it going on.
You should play it with the CHAOS bros.
>Sophia
>not Neon
Bullshit.
Sophia is very much the black mage.
You could argue I should have made the white mage neon but no one in the game is explicitly the white mage and I liked the jack bros better as an idea.
it's not about her being class appropriate but about not having chosen her. i was thinking of doing a FF1 run with SoP named characters as well and was going to do the boys + Neon. initially i thought of Jed as Thief and Neon as Red/White Mage
Yea it would be neon first but I definitely wanted to play black mage and sophia's that.
Jed's thief though obviously yea.
What you should do is leave Jack out of the party. Jed as Thief, Ash as Monk, Neon as Red Mage and Sophia as Black Mage. Then it's a quest for the four of them to go put down their old friend.
kino
non-canon and also sad, I do not accept
They're gonna kill chaos.
Serious question.
Who had the moronic idea of giving the party characters minimalistic shitty sprites while all the npcs have good detailed sprites?
Who thought that was a good idea?
And how that got into production?
Unbelievable,
RP=Role Play
You could insert yourself, family, friends, characters you liked into the game and with the minimalistic sprites it was easier to do so
Or do you mean in the remakes?
I think it looks neat
It really filter me that my party companions are shitty sprites while enemy npcs are cool and detailed.
Rudras seem to have a more consistent design
And this one seem to be the ideal design.
SHINSEIKI ODYSSELYA 2
>snes games
you goof, by then the genre was already shifting into more defined characters story wise with better graphics being available.
memory limitations of sprites on NES
stylistic choice to make monsters more imposing through high detail
Branding, you stupid moron. People spent their childhood staring at those sprites over thousands of battles, while maybe seeing the same sprite MAYBE a max of 10 times. Of course they're going to replicate the older sprites of the things you stare the most at in the game. You dumbass.
Play the PS1 version. It's the same numbers/difficulty/game balance as the NES version but fixes all the dumb bugs
My favorite party composition is Fighter,Monk, Red Mage, White Mage
YOUR DEFENSE IS WEAK
FOUGHT IMPS TOUGHER THAN YOU
I THINK YOU BETTER GO HOME AND CRY TO YOUR MOM
CUZ I BEEN FRICKIN PRACTICIN AND TAKIN MY TIME
GOOD KNIGHT TURNED BAD KNIGHT?
GOOD NIGHT FOR YOU
SURRENDER THE PRINCESS OR SURRENDER YOUR LIFE
I'M LIGHT SPEEDS AHEAD OF YOU
NOW BLEED ON MY KNIFE
He's a giant pain in the ass to outfit, though. He needs all the spells of a mage, and also needs equipment to fight effectively. You basically want a Blackbelt in the group just so you can save the money you'd normally spend on that character and blow it on the Red Mage.
RM always gets Fighter's hand-me-down equipment.
the problem with going Monk to budget is that closer to the end of the game you're getting so much extra shit for Knight/Ninja/RMage to wear that you can't usually even equip it all, and Gold does nothing for you. I always skip Monk and usually go Knight/Ninja/W/B or Knight/R/W/B on replays for this exact reason; at least it feels like loot is useful.
Can anyone give me a QRD on the best version/release of original FF? I know people b***h about the new PC version and it's mostly based off a phone port but I haven't played any version since the GBA.
PS1 is best.
Cool thanks. Is that true for the FF4/chrono trigger game too? I've heard chrono trigger had bad load times.
There's no definitive version.
NES with bugfix romhack is great for purists
PS1 is excellent but has no new content and is aesthetically very different
GBA has PS1's changes with a little better graphics and new content, but its kind of all trash and the game is incredibly easy. But you have romhacks including fun overhauls.
PSP is basically PS1 again
PR is neither faithful to the NES in aesthetics or gameplay, nor does it contain extra content.
The PRs are all pretty good and what's wrong with them you can fix with mods.
I'm assuming you want Original Original, since it still has vancian magic, and not one of the remakes that replaced it
watch this and reach your own conclusion if you really want to make your own choice https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AfNrc3VoeNA
my own opinion, which extends to all of 1-6, is either play the original with (or without) bugfix patches, or play the latest PR versions with (not optional) mods
I just like the NES version the most.
they just can't
Viera Red Mage
I wonder how much harder the game would be if doublecast summoners didn't exist
I thought I was the only moron who still listened to those songs
i listen to the ff one a lot and the zelda one some
since I used to like these I listened to a few of the "game song with lyrics" since that's a super popular thing now I guess but I cannot stand any of them at all
I think those are the top two, but the Mega Man one was is great too.
And yeah, a lot of "parody" music is fricking trash. Ah well
>where's that guy I know
>with balls like a rhino
Joe's here
EVERYBODY WINS EXCEPT JOE WHO GOES TO JAIL?
So I guess Duane stole a shitton of money and disappeared and Brando is now trans.
Chaos won in the end.
Duane stealing the money from the kickstarter unironically is better than Brando being trans. idk if you've seen the pics of him but he looks horrendous
Only useful for haste, and that just reduces the time it takes to kill Chaos down to 2 turns from 4. Might as well replace him with a fighter.
Jack of all trades, master of none.
Offensive magic is always awful in FF. You can completely stop using your black mage in 3 after the Nepto temple.
>You can completely stop using your black mage in 3 after the Nepto temple.
How do you deal with the multiplying enemies before you get DRK then?
They're only in that one dungeon. You can run if you have to.
>cringe
You need to go back.
>Offensive magic is always awful in FF.
cringe
blasting shit with spells is great and it's good aoe in 1
why is thief a class in rpgs?
I mean, a warrior is someone who likes combat
A wizard is someone who likes magic
A thief... steals stuff? what does that have to do with combat? you can force it to make sense, but why did this idea become so popular?
Warriors and wizards can be thieves too, how is that a class on the same level?
thieves are a stand-in for "worldly" rogue types and the seedier side of law
you aren't playing a character that can feasibly become a jack of all trades, you are playing a character archetype
I know it makes sense in D&D, but why did they think it was such a good idea for an archetype in other settings where you can't steal?
This is why so many games went for "rogue" instead.
A thief is just a person that steals. Any other class should be able to steal if they wanted.
Thieves in 1E D&D were a rather catch-all class that included anything from tomb raiders, actual city thieves, rogues, assassins, scoundrels and the like, the naming is kinda there because 1E D&D was really just a melting pot of ideas from a lot of different people, Arneson, Kuntz, Gygax and many other DM like the one who came up with the idea and name for the class, Gary Schweitzer.
Eventually they quickly renamed the class as Rogue because that's a much more apt definition of what the class was supposed to do, stealing, picking locks, exploring, skulking in the shadow etc.
>but why did they think it was such a good idea for an archetype in other settings where you can't steal?
You are misunderstanding the degree to which the ENTIRETY of RPGs are predicated on Gygaxian sacred cows and moon logic, anon. Even the 'rogue' rename is *from* DnD.
In original Dungeons and Dragons characters gained experience based on the amount of loot they hauled out of a dungeon. Players (including the developers) wanted a character class that specialized in attaining loot over combat, since some players didn't like combat or magic and just wanted fat stacks of money. So the Thief class was born and became a sacred cow (like a lot of early DnD concepts) that didn't really have a function in later editions that switched to monster killing EXP systems. Final Fantasy 1 is very much Japanese knockoff ADnD with names switched to avoid lawsuits. Thief turns into Ninja because in ADnD 2e or whatever the Rogue archetype included Thieves and Assassins.
Fighter/(Fighter/Black Belt)/Red Mage/(Red Mage/Black Mage) is the best composition in the game. All the damage you need and still plenty of utility to buff and heal, particularly after getting the healing equipment halfway through the game.
3ft of steel in my hand, and it's flavor is pain
Since this is the FF1 nostalgia thread for now.
Does anyone remember what was that old FF1 dedicated website that ranked every single possible party combination and it gave 4 Monks something like -99999999999999999/10?
Oh God, that actually does sound vaguely familiar. Wasn't it a parody website with text over a black background?
Nope. It was a proper site.
Why do I need one person to do everything when I have four people who do one thing?
>has the coolest design out of the cast
>is never featured as a class for any main characters in more character driven entries
What did Square (Soft) mean by this?
Black Mage was the coolest design, and he got his proper accolades.
Out of the original team only Ishii and Kawazu cared about Red Mages, which is why Seiken Densetsu has a particularly iconic Red Mage cameo, and why Kawazu pays respect to said cameo by reenacting it in Minstrel Song, and also making the Minstrel use the classic FF1 design with a bit of a makeover.
I thinl the only other designer who worked on FF that actually cared about Red Mages was Akihiko Matsui, which is unsurprising since he's a Kawazu alumnus.
So I went to Walmart and cut off a rat tail from some dude.
Where do I find Bahamut IRL? I want sick gains.
I want time mages >:(
Blue Mage
>most interesting, broken, or fun in every game
>always switching it up with implementation and style
blue beats red