A seafaring vessel is a ticket to any port in the setting, as well as MONTHS of tedious, laborious work, sitting around on a ship. Sailing the ocean is expensive in terms of time and effort, it is inventory management times a hundred, busywork times a hundred. You might have to hire people to do these things for you in which case it is not inventory management; it is a management game. A ship is a white elephant.
The alternative is to handwave it, because who wants to roleplay being at sea eating hard tack for 2 months? And now your campaign lacks verisimilitude, it is no longer rooted in cause and effect; you just fast travel between big locations. If you can do it between Saint Gooseberry and Port Galoshes then why not between Port Galoshes and the Temple Of Really Evil Meanies? Ships are so complicated and so procedure-heavy that they form a black hole that sucks in other game mechanics and narrative elements. You are no longer playing immoral sellswords taking any chance at coin, or dungeon delving heroes seeking to destroy an ancient evil, or street hustlers looking for their next big score; you are playing seamen who do seamen things.
And much like seaman if that's all you're eating it might leave a bitter taste in your mouth.
Literally just set your campaign around a small area like the Baltic sea and make oversea travel a few random encounters (message in a bottle, monster, castaway, etc.) and deduct rations lost. Not hard at all. You don't even have to describe tertain much
>And now your campaign lacks verisimilitude, it is no longer rooted in cause and effect; you just fast travel between big locations. If you can do it between Saint Gooseberry and Port Galoshes then why not between Port Galoshes and the Temple Of Really Evil Meanies?
This is a really Bizarre point. You handwave the tedium no one cares about. Time still passes in the campaign and if there is something actually worth zooming on, say for example the many pirates and sea monsters on the way to the Temple of Really Evil Meanies, you can still focus on that without counting the number of rations on your ship down to the day or rolling to see if you catch scurvy because you forgot to list oranges in your equipment list. You aren't fast traveling anymore than ANY large scale travel in a campaign is fast traveling.
Like every /tg/ meme it's a skill issue.
Why it's the GM's fault: >Says they prepared for it but didn't actually, so there's no interesting encounters, random or otherwise- but the GM's ego doesn't allow them to do a time-skip. >Refused to read the sailing & ship combat rules ahead of time because they would rather bring the session to a grinding halt in the middle of combat to look up the rules as slowly as possible and complain instead of simply making a ruling and moving on >Too much of a smoothbrain to anticipate the PCs wanting to take a quick & direct route to their destination
Why it's the players' fault: >That Guy gets upset if his optimized character build isn't made for nautical combat >PCs are too boring to roleplay downtime on the boat >PCs are too stupid to hire professional sailors >PCs like don't want to deal with the management but paradoxically don't want to time-skip either.
But the two worst offenders are: >PCs are too vapid and get decisions paralysis so anytime the GM asks what the group is doing it becomes a game of silent chicken where all the players wait for the other ones to speak first >PCs and/or GM spends more time watching Spoony/reading /tg/ than actually playing games, and have already decided in their head that the campaign is ruined
Like nearly everything, boats are actually very fun in TTRPGs but get ruined when players aren't fun. Players can even have fun roleplaying their CHARACTER having a miserable time on the water, but most people don't know that because they shouldn't be playing TTRPGs in the first place.
Hey, I love doing management. I'd enjoy a campaign about being on the sea, especially if I get to be a pirate. But not everyone else at the table will, and quite frankly you don't need more than one person handling the purchase of supplies. When it turns out the harbourmaster is in league with the local crime syndicate then, sure, you gotta go out and do some traditional RPG-party stuff but between these two points it's just everyone waiting for me to talk excitedly about grog.
The table isn't just me, others will want to speed this part along. The average GM doesn't think these things through so I'm left dissatisfied when we handwave it. But the alternative is everyone else at the table being bored to tears because they presumably don't want to fight someone else for the honour of deciding which rope to buy.
>And now your campaign lacks verisimilitude, it is no longer rooted in cause and effect; you just fast travel between big locations. If you can do it between Saint Gooseberry and Port Galoshes then why not between Port Galoshes and the Temple Of Really Evil Meanies?
This is a really Bizarre point. You handwave the tedium no one cares about. Time still passes in the campaign and if there is something actually worth zooming on, say for example the many pirates and sea monsters on the way to the Temple of Really Evil Meanies, you can still focus on that without counting the number of rations on your ship down to the day or rolling to see if you catch scurvy because you forgot to list oranges in your equipment list. You aren't fast traveling anymore than ANY large scale travel in a campaign is fast traveling.
Overland travel is often a confrontation, a geographical challenge, or finding something novel to interact with. Let's say in a week's travel you have X encounters, they're all unique and interesting. A voyage between two distant ports can be months. 2 months of sea travel? X*8 encounters. That's a lot of encounters, and they'll probably be fun. But they'll all be variations on finding things in the ocean.
If you were sold on this game being about bootleggers, you'll probably not be happy with the quantity of tommyguns. If you were sold on this as a dungeon delve, you might be tired of fighting fishfolk and wondering when we're gonna get to the dungeon. If you were sold on this game as a murder mystery you're probably going to be annoyed that whenever you catch the murderer a bunch of unrelated seafaring happens to distract you, or indeed prevent you from bringing the murderer to justice.
Having a seafaring campaign is fun, I think they're great. But they HRRNGGscuttle campaigns because they take an inordinary amount of focus away from other aspects of play.
>Let's say in a week's travel you have X encounters, they're all unique and interesting. A voyage between two distant ports can be months. 2 months of sea travel? X*8 encounters. That's a lot of encounters, and they'll probably be fun. But they'll all be variations on finding things in the ocean
I don't fully agree it has to be run like this. You can just as easily say "The open sea is sparse so there'll still only be X encounters or X*2 encounters" there's no need to force linear scaling. You can still also have a variety of encounters at sea. Whirlpools, pirates, merchants, sea monsters, fish people, ghosts, uncharted islands and all the encounters they come with, infamously dangerous islands, smaller intermediate ports, coves and caves to make up dungeons. Maybe there isn't as much variety as land, but you can still get a good amount in.
I think the issues come from a sense of obligation. People think they HAVE to include more encounters than they really want or HAVE to include tedious sailing rules and equipment management, even when they don't want to. There's a certain amount of baggage that comes with sailing that I believe aren't always willing to drop
That's fair. Nothing needs to be 1:1, that's true. But to me a ship will always be in the same category as having Wish in D&Dadjacents, or getting that big score that means you can retire in a heist game, or finding magic in a setting that doesn't allow it; it changes the game. Not necessarily for the worse, but it does change it. OP is concerned that it kills the campaign and I don't think that's unfair, because I think the majority of GMs, and let's face it, DMs, that make this mistake often aren't ready for the domino effect they're putting into play. Even though ideally getting a sailing ship should inspire awe and amazement, even just writing "sailing ship" activates my neurons.
>The table isn't just me, others will want to speed this part along.
I know- your group fits my other examples. Like I said it's a skill issue at the end of the day, seafaring in a campaign is like a casual filter that shows you which players are willing to actually get lost in the fiction and not act miserable even though their characters might be.
If your players actually do want to play TTRPGs and not something else then I would recommend having them read more books and watch more shows so they at least get some inspiration for stuff to do on a boat, because not being a miserable lump OOC is simply something that just comes with experience.
>I know- your group fits my other examples. Like I said it's a skill issue at the end of the day, seafaring in a campaign is like a casual filter that shows you which players are willing to actually get lost in the fiction and not act miserable even though their characters might be.
Getting off-topic here but 100% with you on that one, I kind addressed that in
That's fair. Nothing needs to be 1:1, that's true. But to me a ship will always be in the same category as having Wish in D&Dadjacents, or getting that big score that means you can retire in a heist game, or finding magic in a setting that doesn't allow it; it changes the game. Not necessarily for the worse, but it does change it. OP is concerned that it kills the campaign and I don't think that's unfair, because I think the majority of GMs, and let's face it, DMs, that make this mistake often aren't ready for the domino effect they're putting into play. Even though ideally getting a sailing ship should inspire awe and amazement, even just writing "sailing ship" activates my neurons.
but I almost wanted to say "I should just with better players" which, sadly, is a little true. I end up GMing and there are things like having and operating a merchant vessel that would be a lot of fun for me to do. But my players, who are my friends, let's say they wouldn't be able to name a favourite documentary. I don't think any of them have read fiction after the age of 20 either.
It is what it is. They have other qualities, of course, but I am often the one asked to speed things along for the sake of "getting to the action" and it kills me a little.
Both of the boat-centric games I've been a part of were two of the dumbest tabletop experiences I've ever had. Something about boats just brings the worst out of players and GMs alike.
I think it's because boats and boat combat are not as exciting to imagine like land combat is, and most tabletop games are about land combat.
Note that I'm not saying seafaring is not exciting, it's absolutely exhilirating in my opinion, but the average neckbeard doesn't even shower, let alone sail on a body of water, but they have picked up a stick and hit a tree with it. So it's hard for most hobbyists to portray it and play it in a way that isn't just fast travel.
I remember I played a game in which we started on a boat and used it as a mobile base of operations. It even hosted the nation's king, for which we worked. After a half assed fight with a sea dragon and some boarding actions with a pirate vessel, the Dungeon Master made it crash and teleported us to a different land... and in a different timeline entirely in which the kingdom was destroyed. Something about that ship made him move the game as far away as possible from it.
>I think it's because boats and boat combat are not as exciting to imagine like land combat is
Which I find odd because the structure of ships can make for some very interesting geography. I suppose it can be a bit repetitive if every encounter is boat combat though. The main thing is to make sure the main points of interest are still on land, so you have space for your longer dungeons.
>A seafaring vessel is a ticket to any port in the setting, as well as MONTHS of tedious, laborious work, sitting around on a ship. Sailing the ocean is expensive in terms of time and effort, it is inventory management times a hundred, busywork times a hundred. You might have to hire people to do these things for you in which case it is not inventory management; it is a management game.
Bro stop i can only get so erect
Your inability to write something interesting about a sea voyage is a YOU problem. Consume some relevant media. Read "Master and Commander" or "Treasure Island".
Well shit, I want to make an airship setting.
Will still work on it, but it makes me think how players will handle it, or even want to engage with the traveling aspects.
Both of the boat-centric games I've been a part of were two of the dumbest tabletop experiences I've ever had. Something about boats just brings the worst out of players and GMs alike.
When you're playing in a campaign with a lot of freedom in the hands of your players, what's generally worked for me is to ask them what their plans are at the end of the session so I can plan accordingly. It takes out the guesswork of MY PLAYERS CAN GO ANYWHERE, and if you ask them leading questions and/or curate what things are even feasible to be doing you can direct their course of actions in a way that gives you more control but lets them feel like they made choices themselves.
So in the boat scenario, you give them a boat at the end of the session, ask them where they are sailing to, and if they have no idea throw out a few hooks for them to bite.
>There's a spectre in your limes and you must do battle with it or suffer scurvy >Mop in bucket at top of stairs, roll perception >Decipher the quartermaster's riddle penned 2 months earlier to be allowed entry into the galley
>party tries to bullshit my arc of a lengthy and dangerous march deep into hostile territory with a ship >there's nobody willing to sell them a vessel during times of war so they straight up build one >proceed to run them through an absolute disaster of a voyage as nobody could be arsed to look into what one needs for months at sea despite spending days researching pre-industrial boat construction >discovered while gathering water ashore and holed by cannon fire less than a third of the way to their destination >now ground slogging without mounts or camping equipment
Naturally they're going to try to steal mounts and equipment next session. i'm not sure if I want to show them mercy and let that fly or if doing so is going to attract too much attention. I'll probably decide based on how sneaky beaky or murder hoboey they go about it.
It really only affects the typical modern DnD style of games where the entire thing basically a pre-written story strung along by different set-pieces towards an end goal. Once you add a boat the players can quickly deviate from this story, and most DMs are too incompetent to quickly wrangle them back in, or adjust to make the story fit around them having a boat.
I don't even mean this as a "hurr durr dnd sucks" rant. Look at games like shadowrun: Anyone could just hop on a plane anytime they feel like it and frick off, or jump in a car and drive off to wherever, but it's never an issue because they have more complex driving forces than "We're heroes so we must do hero things." Or something like Traveller, Star Wars, Rogue Trader, Stars Without Number, or basically anything with starships: They are effectively the same as having a boat in a fantasy setting, yet nobody has any issues with them.
Maybe it's just fantasy in general because if you think really hard most parties have absolutely no reason to actually travel together. No, "We gotta be heroes and beat the bad guy!" Isn't a good reason.
You handed your group a mobile base without a plan for them having a mobile base.
Two core issues: it's a base. They will immediately begin to try to upgrade it because it's a base. It's mobile. They will immediately begin going everywhere via the boat because it's mobile.
Fun fact: this problem is largely averted in science fiction campaigns because the ship becomes a background character that moves the characters from scene to scene.
>Fun fact: this problem is largely averted in science fiction campaigns because the ship becomes a background character that moves the characters from scene to scene.
So just...
Do this in fantasy?
Honestly this is just good advice for games in general.
Limitations breed creativity. On the GM side, that goes from game design to campaign design to encounter design to class design. On the player side, it's a similar thing. "What can we do about condition X, given parameters A through C?" is an easier question to answer than "What can we do about condition X, given we can do a shitload of things?". Even in freeformy games like FATE, you see people defining and nailing down parts of the previously-undefined lore in order to gain numerical bonuses. "Find out what the boss is weak to [via taking research actions and either making shit up or demanding the GM make shit up] and use that [thus playing into the newly created constraints] to gain a +1"
Usually I've seen it be an issue for GMs who constantly think they have to challenge characters while on the boat, instead of challenging them when they are off it. The way I explain boats to new GMs is to pretend it's scifi. Like, even in StarTrek the important people leave the ship to have adventures, & ship based adventures are rare
I ran a boat campaign pretty successfully like this. Granted it was a more linear campaign where I had set up maguffins for the party to find at the campaign start because my players are more casually oriented. We had a couple encounters including the final battle on the ship and it was great but 90% of the time we were on land. Travelling between places in the boat was also good time for roleplay. I made the boat magical and power up with each maguffin they found so it started out being able to sail itself and by the end of the campaign it could fly. I made a big map of the isles the players were in at the campaign start and we used it the whole campaign. Pic related. At the bottom is Gnomehome where they practice demuckracy.
They could go anywhere in any order I just gave them a hook they followed. Trust me with the players I had in that campaign they wanted to know what direction to go first. I had 5 players, two of which are opposing chaos goblins and one was brand new. I wish I could pick my ideal players out of my friend group and drop the chaos goblins without offending anyone.
Sorry, I didn't, mean to use it as more of an example of "why the hell does Captain Kirk & Spock the two most valuable people, keep getting into trouble, don't they have other people for that job?"
boats + open world sandbox game = the olayers sit there for three and a half hours asking me "so where is the bad guy again?" Before fricking off to the other side of the planet to get a story hook that doesn't specifically threaten that entire region right off the bat so I can avoid the "man this world sure is in a lot of peril" comment
Ships only increase the amount of things a party can do if its an adventure-driven table/game instead of a campaign driven one
If the players are going to jump from place to place for unconnected adventures, mas as well give them their own ship to care about. Ignore the boring shit and managment, just leave the jolly pirates and kraken vanquishing. Its also a secondary goal and motivation to maintain and enhance their ship. Nothing stopping you from ignoring it and not using it for adventures that take place inland, but at the very least it will always serve as a moving base of operations and stability no matter where they go.
How can anyone possibly see this as anything other than a lack of creativity from the GM?
There are thousands of ways to make random encounters and events on a boat interesting. Plus, large-scale sea travel should just mimic large-scale land travel anyway.
Not even that. Even a GM with no imagination could be a homosexual and ignore the ship entirely to use it solely for fast travel without hassle or problem.
OP and first post just want to cry like homosexuals and complain for no reason
this happens to people in real life too >acquire boat >spend lots of money and time on boat bullshit >still spend almost no time on the water because you're dealing with the associated boat shit when you're not working
boats are just cursed dude it's not an RPG issue
The best campaign I've ever ran in 15 years is DMing was a 5E BOAT campaign set in my homebrew fantasy rennaissance setting. One of my PCs was the captain and I had shot 10 players who rotated out regularly and each one just made actual slam dunk characters that blended silliness and seriousness JUST. RIGHT. It was perfect and every at sea combat was thrilling in a way I really haven't been able to replicate in land battles.
For at sea combat, Id just shift the boats relative to each other as they grew closer and closer until... with a CRASH the ships connect and boarders jump over. Players could board the enemy ship outnumbered, sling spells across the waves, tons of muskets, rifles and sabre rattling.
I had them fight an undead caravel that rose out of the ocean during an unnatural midst in the middle of the night whos captain was a true vampire. They battled a crew of holy walrus men with a black dragon bard (who joined the crew). The last encounter I ran had then pulling into a depressed quiet "scottish" town where a mysterious carnival had set up shop. They were actually a pirate crew and it turned into a two location battle with the captains engaged in a fight in the big tent up in town and the other half of the crew fighting a desperate battle for survival at the port (and when they barely started to win ANOTHER enemy captain pulled into the port).
I had more than 10 PCs and 20 named DM NPCs (half played by my player characters who came to really grow attached to them) who all were as ridiculous as my PCs. One of them was their helmsmen, the midget storm giant (only 12 feet tall) who was outcast from his tribe for being too short named DOOMSCAR. And there was trough, the bugbear cabin boy who ate 3 weeks worth of fish during a battle when no one was looking. And the troubled past drow navigator. Or the go lucky sailor a guitar playing halfling who shared fantasy weed and a smile freely.
The way we handled the passage of time was every "day" spent at sea every PC at the session got to run ONE scene (and others could ask to part of those scenes as well) where that PC got to approach any NPC or PC the wanted for a bit of roleplay. My players loved this system so much we would frequently have half a session be just role-playing and it captured the passage of time in a meaningful, silly but still hand waved way.
One of my PCs was the captain, a pirate princess warlock of the spiteful goddes the Sea b***h fleeing her arranged marriage to one of three pirate lords to choose her father's successor. All the roles on the ship you would expect were occupied by either the PCs or the NPCs.
TL;DR i ended up accidentally making dnd One Piece and I will never run a game as good again.
A seafaring vessel is a ticket to any port in the setting, as well as MONTHS of tedious, laborious work, sitting around on a ship. Sailing the ocean is expensive in terms of time and effort, it is inventory management times a hundred, busywork times a hundred. You might have to hire people to do these things for you in which case it is not inventory management; it is a management game. A ship is a white elephant.
The alternative is to handwave it, because who wants to roleplay being at sea eating hard tack for 2 months? And now your campaign lacks verisimilitude, it is no longer rooted in cause and effect; you just fast travel between big locations. If you can do it between Saint Gooseberry and Port Galoshes then why not between Port Galoshes and the Temple Of Really Evil Meanies? Ships are so complicated and so procedure-heavy that they form a black hole that sucks in other game mechanics and narrative elements. You are no longer playing immoral sellswords taking any chance at coin, or dungeon delving heroes seeking to destroy an ancient evil, or street hustlers looking for their next big score; you are playing seamen who do seamen things.
And much like seaman if that's all you're eating it might leave a bitter taste in your mouth.
Literally just set your campaign around a small area like the Baltic sea and make oversea travel a few random encounters (message in a bottle, monster, castaway, etc.) and deduct rations lost. Not hard at all. You don't even have to describe tertain much
*terrain
>And now your campaign lacks verisimilitude, it is no longer rooted in cause and effect; you just fast travel between big locations. If you can do it between Saint Gooseberry and Port Galoshes then why not between Port Galoshes and the Temple Of Really Evil Meanies?
This is a really Bizarre point. You handwave the tedium no one cares about. Time still passes in the campaign and if there is something actually worth zooming on, say for example the many pirates and sea monsters on the way to the Temple of Really Evil Meanies, you can still focus on that without counting the number of rations on your ship down to the day or rolling to see if you catch scurvy because you forgot to list oranges in your equipment list. You aren't fast traveling anymore than ANY large scale travel in a campaign is fast traveling.
Like every /tg/ meme it's a skill issue.
Why it's the GM's fault:
>Says they prepared for it but didn't actually, so there's no interesting encounters, random or otherwise- but the GM's ego doesn't allow them to do a time-skip.
>Refused to read the sailing & ship combat rules ahead of time because they would rather bring the session to a grinding halt in the middle of combat to look up the rules as slowly as possible and complain instead of simply making a ruling and moving on
>Too much of a smoothbrain to anticipate the PCs wanting to take a quick & direct route to their destination
Why it's the players' fault:
>That Guy gets upset if his optimized character build isn't made for nautical combat
>PCs are too boring to roleplay downtime on the boat
>PCs are too stupid to hire professional sailors
>PCs like don't want to deal with the management but paradoxically don't want to time-skip either.
But the two worst offenders are:
>PCs are too vapid and get decisions paralysis so anytime the GM asks what the group is doing it becomes a game of silent chicken where all the players wait for the other ones to speak first
>PCs and/or GM spends more time watching Spoony/reading /tg/ than actually playing games, and have already decided in their head that the campaign is ruined
Like nearly everything, boats are actually very fun in TTRPGs but get ruined when players aren't fun. Players can even have fun roleplaying their CHARACTER having a miserable time on the water, but most people don't know that because they shouldn't be playing TTRPGs in the first place.
Hey, I love doing management. I'd enjoy a campaign about being on the sea, especially if I get to be a pirate. But not everyone else at the table will, and quite frankly you don't need more than one person handling the purchase of supplies. When it turns out the harbourmaster is in league with the local crime syndicate then, sure, you gotta go out and do some traditional RPG-party stuff but between these two points it's just everyone waiting for me to talk excitedly about grog.
The table isn't just me, others will want to speed this part along. The average GM doesn't think these things through so I'm left dissatisfied when we handwave it. But the alternative is everyone else at the table being bored to tears because they presumably don't want to fight someone else for the honour of deciding which rope to buy.
Overland travel is often a confrontation, a geographical challenge, or finding something novel to interact with. Let's say in a week's travel you have X encounters, they're all unique and interesting. A voyage between two distant ports can be months. 2 months of sea travel? X*8 encounters. That's a lot of encounters, and they'll probably be fun. But they'll all be variations on finding things in the ocean.
If you were sold on this game being about bootleggers, you'll probably not be happy with the quantity of tommyguns. If you were sold on this as a dungeon delve, you might be tired of fighting fishfolk and wondering when we're gonna get to the dungeon. If you were sold on this game as a murder mystery you're probably going to be annoyed that whenever you catch the murderer a bunch of unrelated seafaring happens to distract you, or indeed prevent you from bringing the murderer to justice.
Having a seafaring campaign is fun, I think they're great. But they HRRNGGscuttle campaigns because they take an inordinary amount of focus away from other aspects of play.
>Let's say in a week's travel you have X encounters, they're all unique and interesting. A voyage between two distant ports can be months. 2 months of sea travel? X*8 encounters. That's a lot of encounters, and they'll probably be fun. But they'll all be variations on finding things in the ocean
I don't fully agree it has to be run like this. You can just as easily say "The open sea is sparse so there'll still only be X encounters or X*2 encounters" there's no need to force linear scaling. You can still also have a variety of encounters at sea. Whirlpools, pirates, merchants, sea monsters, fish people, ghosts, uncharted islands and all the encounters they come with, infamously dangerous islands, smaller intermediate ports, coves and caves to make up dungeons. Maybe there isn't as much variety as land, but you can still get a good amount in.
I think the issues come from a sense of obligation. People think they HAVE to include more encounters than they really want or HAVE to include tedious sailing rules and equipment management, even when they don't want to. There's a certain amount of baggage that comes with sailing that I believe aren't always willing to drop
That's fair. Nothing needs to be 1:1, that's true. But to me a ship will always be in the same category as having Wish in D&Dadjacents, or getting that big score that means you can retire in a heist game, or finding magic in a setting that doesn't allow it; it changes the game. Not necessarily for the worse, but it does change it. OP is concerned that it kills the campaign and I don't think that's unfair, because I think the majority of GMs, and let's face it, DMs, that make this mistake often aren't ready for the domino effect they're putting into play. Even though ideally getting a sailing ship should inspire awe and amazement, even just writing "sailing ship" activates my neurons.
>The table isn't just me, others will want to speed this part along.
I know- your group fits my other examples. Like I said it's a skill issue at the end of the day, seafaring in a campaign is like a casual filter that shows you which players are willing to actually get lost in the fiction and not act miserable even though their characters might be.
If your players actually do want to play TTRPGs and not something else then I would recommend having them read more books and watch more shows so they at least get some inspiration for stuff to do on a boat, because not being a miserable lump OOC is simply something that just comes with experience.
>I know- your group fits my other examples. Like I said it's a skill issue at the end of the day, seafaring in a campaign is like a casual filter that shows you which players are willing to actually get lost in the fiction and not act miserable even though their characters might be.
Getting off-topic here but 100% with you on that one, I kind addressed that in
but I almost wanted to say "I should just with better players" which, sadly, is a little true. I end up GMing and there are things like having and operating a merchant vessel that would be a lot of fun for me to do. But my players, who are my friends, let's say they wouldn't be able to name a favourite documentary. I don't think any of them have read fiction after the age of 20 either.
It is what it is. They have other qualities, of course, but I am often the one asked to speed things along for the sake of "getting to the action" and it kills me a little.
>HRRNGGscuttle
What
>HRRNGGscuttle
I'm assuming the RNG in the middle means what we think, so HR (RNG) G is the mystery.
>PCs and/or GM spends more time watching Spoony than actually playing games
Thankfully I have overcame this.
I think it's because boats and boat combat are not as exciting to imagine like land combat is, and most tabletop games are about land combat.
Note that I'm not saying seafaring is not exciting, it's absolutely exhilirating in my opinion, but the average neckbeard doesn't even shower, let alone sail on a body of water, but they have picked up a stick and hit a tree with it. So it's hard for most hobbyists to portray it and play it in a way that isn't just fast travel.
I remember I played a game in which we started on a boat and used it as a mobile base of operations. It even hosted the nation's king, for which we worked. After a half assed fight with a sea dragon and some boarding actions with a pirate vessel, the Dungeon Master made it crash and teleported us to a different land... and in a different timeline entirely in which the kingdom was destroyed. Something about that ship made him move the game as far away as possible from it.
>I think it's because boats and boat combat are not as exciting to imagine like land combat is
Which I find odd because the structure of ships can make for some very interesting geography. I suppose it can be a bit repetitive if every encounter is boat combat though. The main thing is to make sure the main points of interest are still on land, so you have space for your longer dungeons.
>A seafaring vessel is a ticket to any port in the setting, as well as MONTHS of tedious, laborious work, sitting around on a ship. Sailing the ocean is expensive in terms of time and effort, it is inventory management times a hundred, busywork times a hundred. You might have to hire people to do these things for you in which case it is not inventory management; it is a management game.
Bro stop i can only get so erect
My thoughts exactly. I fricking LOVE logistics so fricking much it's unreal.hk8r0
Seabed map. Crow's nest schedule. Combat drills. Oh yeah bby you're wet like a keel now, roll for rigging.
Google never get on the boat spoony.
just put your grasses on
EIGHT FRICKING YEARS!
And then when we thought it's finally over he just fricking DIED!
In absolute fairness, he seems to have ensured that the story would continue after they got off the boat, even though he died.
>we do a little trolling
party gets lots of autonomy and freedom -> party gets decision paralysis
>because players, as a general rule, are terrible at exercising agency
Landlubbers don't understand the sea and her joys. As such they can't right compelling stories about her. Stick to the land you love so much.
This.
Your inability to write something interesting about a sea voyage is a YOU problem. Consume some relevant media. Read "Master and Commander" or "Treasure Island".
Well shit, I want to make an airship setting.
Will still work on it, but it makes me think how players will handle it, or even want to engage with the traveling aspects.
Both of the boat-centric games I've been a part of were two of the dumbest tabletop experiences I've ever had. Something about boats just brings the worst out of players and GMs alike.
have you tried not playing DnD?
When you're playing in a campaign with a lot of freedom in the hands of your players, what's generally worked for me is to ask them what their plans are at the end of the session so I can plan accordingly. It takes out the guesswork of MY PLAYERS CAN GO ANYWHERE, and if you ask them leading questions and/or curate what things are even feasible to be doing you can direct their course of actions in a way that gives you more control but lets them feel like they made choices themselves.
So in the boat scenario, you give them a boat at the end of the session, ask them where they are sailing to, and if they have no idea throw out a few hooks for them to bite.
What if you just make the ship a dungeon and by the time they beat it they have arrived their destination
>There's a spectre in your limes and you must do battle with it or suffer scurvy
>Mop in bucket at top of stairs, roll perception
>Decipher the quartermaster's riddle penned 2 months earlier to be allowed entry into the galley
>party tries to bullshit my arc of a lengthy and dangerous march deep into hostile territory with a ship
>there's nobody willing to sell them a vessel during times of war so they straight up build one
>proceed to run them through an absolute disaster of a voyage as nobody could be arsed to look into what one needs for months at sea despite spending days researching pre-industrial boat construction
>discovered while gathering water ashore and holed by cannon fire less than a third of the way to their destination
>now ground slogging without mounts or camping equipment
Naturally they're going to try to steal mounts and equipment next session. i'm not sure if I want to show them mercy and let that fly or if doing so is going to attract too much attention. I'll probably decide based on how sneaky beaky or murder hoboey they go about it.
Let them do now, make it bite their asses later.
Nice railroad gay.
>lets them do moronic shit
>reacts reasonably
>some gay yells railroad
many such cases
>Present a building
>Players talk about building for 30 minutes
>Nothing happens
>"Railroad"
>????????????
You haven't played a game in years if ever
It really only affects the typical modern DnD style of games where the entire thing basically a pre-written story strung along by different set-pieces towards an end goal. Once you add a boat the players can quickly deviate from this story, and most DMs are too incompetent to quickly wrangle them back in, or adjust to make the story fit around them having a boat.
I don't even mean this as a "hurr durr dnd sucks" rant. Look at games like shadowrun: Anyone could just hop on a plane anytime they feel like it and frick off, or jump in a car and drive off to wherever, but it's never an issue because they have more complex driving forces than "We're heroes so we must do hero things." Or something like Traveller, Star Wars, Rogue Trader, Stars Without Number, or basically anything with starships: They are effectively the same as having a boat in a fantasy setting, yet nobody has any issues with them.
Maybe it's just fantasy in general because if you think really hard most parties have absolutely no reason to actually travel together. No, "We gotta be heroes and beat the bad guy!" Isn't a good reason.
You handed your group a mobile base without a plan for them having a mobile base.
Two core issues: it's a base. They will immediately begin to try to upgrade it because it's a base. It's mobile. They will immediately begin going everywhere via the boat because it's mobile.
Fun fact: this problem is largely averted in science fiction campaigns because the ship becomes a background character that moves the characters from scene to scene.
>Fun fact: this problem is largely averted in science fiction campaigns because the ship becomes a background character that moves the characters from scene to scene.
So just...
Do this in fantasy?
Most people work best under limitations. A boat works against that.
Honestly this is just good advice for games in general.
Limitations breed creativity. On the GM side, that goes from game design to campaign design to encounter design to class design. On the player side, it's a similar thing. "What can we do about condition X, given parameters A through C?" is an easier question to answer than "What can we do about condition X, given we can do a shitload of things?". Even in freeformy games like FATE, you see people defining and nailing down parts of the previously-undefined lore in order to gain numerical bonuses. "Find out what the boss is weak to [via taking research actions and either making shit up or demanding the GM make shit up] and use that [thus playing into the newly created constraints] to gain a +1"
Usually I've seen it be an issue for GMs who constantly think they have to challenge characters while on the boat, instead of challenging them when they are off it. The way I explain boats to new GMs is to pretend it's scifi. Like, even in StarTrek the important people leave the ship to have adventures, & ship based adventures are rare
I ran a boat campaign pretty successfully like this. Granted it was a more linear campaign where I had set up maguffins for the party to find at the campaign start because my players are more casually oriented. We had a couple encounters including the final battle on the ship and it was great but 90% of the time we were on land. Travelling between places in the boat was also good time for roleplay. I made the boat magical and power up with each maguffin they found so it started out being able to sail itself and by the end of the campaign it could fly. I made a big map of the isles the players were in at the campaign start and we used it the whole campaign. Pic related. At the bottom is Gnomehome where they practice demuckracy.
>have open archipelago
>railroad the shit out of it
Ok.
They could go anywhere in any order I just gave them a hook they followed. Trust me with the players I had in that campaign they wanted to know what direction to go first. I had 5 players, two of which are opposing chaos goblins and one was brand new. I wish I could pick my ideal players out of my friend group and drop the chaos goblins without offending anyone.
>ship based adventures are rare
Star Trek, especially outside of TOS, is a bad example for that but your point is solid.
Sorry, I didn't, mean to use it as more of an example of "why the hell does Captain Kirk & Spock the two most valuable people, keep getting into trouble, don't they have other people for that job?"
boats + open world sandbox game = the olayers sit there for three and a half hours asking me "so where is the bad guy again?" Before fricking off to the other side of the planet to get a story hook that doesn't specifically threaten that entire region right off the bat so I can avoid the "man this world sure is in a lot of peril" comment
Ships only increase the amount of things a party can do if its an adventure-driven table/game instead of a campaign driven one
If the players are going to jump from place to place for unconnected adventures, mas as well give them their own ship to care about. Ignore the boring shit and managment, just leave the jolly pirates and kraken vanquishing. Its also a secondary goal and motivation to maintain and enhance their ship. Nothing stopping you from ignoring it and not using it for adventures that take place inland, but at the very least it will always serve as a moving base of operations and stability no matter where they go.
How can anyone possibly see this as anything other than a lack of creativity from the GM?
There are thousands of ways to make random encounters and events on a boat interesting. Plus, large-scale sea travel should just mimic large-scale land travel anyway.
Not even that. Even a GM with no imagination could be a homosexual and ignore the ship entirely to use it solely for fast travel without hassle or problem.
OP and first post just want to cry like homosexuals and complain for no reason
this happens to people in real life too
>acquire boat
>spend lots of money and time on boat bullshit
>still spend almost no time on the water because you're dealing with the associated boat shit when you're not working
boats are just cursed dude it's not an RPG issue
The best campaign I've ever ran in 15 years is DMing was a 5E BOAT campaign set in my homebrew fantasy rennaissance setting. One of my PCs was the captain and I had shot 10 players who rotated out regularly and each one just made actual slam dunk characters that blended silliness and seriousness JUST. RIGHT. It was perfect and every at sea combat was thrilling in a way I really haven't been able to replicate in land battles.
For at sea combat, Id just shift the boats relative to each other as they grew closer and closer until... with a CRASH the ships connect and boarders jump over. Players could board the enemy ship outnumbered, sling spells across the waves, tons of muskets, rifles and sabre rattling.
I had them fight an undead caravel that rose out of the ocean during an unnatural midst in the middle of the night whos captain was a true vampire. They battled a crew of holy walrus men with a black dragon bard (who joined the crew). The last encounter I ran had then pulling into a depressed quiet "scottish" town where a mysterious carnival had set up shop. They were actually a pirate crew and it turned into a two location battle with the captains engaged in a fight in the big tent up in town and the other half of the crew fighting a desperate battle for survival at the port (and when they barely started to win ANOTHER enemy captain pulled into the port).
I had more than 10 PCs and 20 named DM NPCs (half played by my player characters who came to really grow attached to them) who all were as ridiculous as my PCs. One of them was their helmsmen, the midget storm giant (only 12 feet tall) who was outcast from his tribe for being too short named DOOMSCAR. And there was trough, the bugbear cabin boy who ate 3 weeks worth of fish during a battle when no one was looking. And the troubled past drow navigator. Or the go lucky sailor a guitar playing halfling who shared fantasy weed and a smile freely.
The way we handled the passage of time was every "day" spent at sea every PC at the session got to run ONE scene (and others could ask to part of those scenes as well) where that PC got to approach any NPC or PC the wanted for a bit of roleplay. My players loved this system so much we would frequently have half a session be just role-playing and it captured the passage of time in a meaningful, silly but still hand waved way.
One of my PCs was the captain, a pirate princess warlock of the spiteful goddes the Sea b***h fleeing her arranged marriage to one of three pirate lords to choose her father's successor. All the roles on the ship you would expect were occupied by either the PCs or the NPCs.
TL;DR i ended up accidentally making dnd One Piece and I will never run a game as good again.